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Jumping off the Treadmill: Unshaming with Zelph on the Shelf!
Episode 27 • 3rd March 2025 • The Midlife Revolution • Megan Conner
00:00:00 01:32:47

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Join host Megan Connor in a profound conversation with ex-Mormon content creators, Samantha and Tanner from Zelf on the Shelf, as they explore the transformative journey of midlife. This episode dives deep into their experiences of leaving the Mormon Church, confronting societal norms, and redefining personal meaning. They discuss pivotal "treadmill moments" that led to their personal revolutions, the therapeutic use of psychedelics, and the critical role of grief and community in healing. From battling cultural shame to embracing self-expression and growth, this dialogue is an enlightening look at how one can navigate life's halfway point with authenticity, courage, and a spirit of rebellion against outdated constructs. Tune in for insights on un-shaming personal desires, the importance of collective healing, and how to find joy and purpose in life's later chapters. Check out Zelph on the Shelf Patreon.

Transcripts

WEBVTT

::

Hello, beautiful humans,

::

and welcome to the Midlife Revolution.

::

I'm your host, Megan Conner,

::

and today I am joined by

::

two incredibly wonderful

::

human beings and

::

revolutionaries in their own right,

::

Samantha and Tanner.

::

Welcome, Zelf on the Shelf.

::

Yay!

::

Hi.

::

Hi.

::

Would you say we're your

::

favorite midlifers?

::

You definitely are.

::

Definitely my favorite.

::

Revolutionizing the very

::

concept of midlife.

::

That's a big part of it.

::

In fact, I always tell people that,

::

you know,

::

people think about midlife as a

::

certain age,

::

but I think of it as a stage

::

in your life where you just

::

sort of stop what you're

::

doing and look around and say,

::

wait a second, I've been on autopilot.

::

Is this what I really want?

::

Yeah,

::

so good to have your midlife crisis

::

as early as possible.

::

So you can reevaluate sooner.

::

I love that.

::

Exactly, exactly.

::

So that's why I wanted to

::

have you guys on because I

::

love your stories and your

::

revolutions that you're creating.

::

And I just want you guys to

::

talk about yourselves for a little bit.

::

Who wants to go first?

::

I'd love to go first.

::

Tanya, you go first.

::

All right.

::

We are two ex-Mormon content creators.

::

We met in college at Brigham

::

Young University, Idaho.

::

We've been doing YouTube for

::

about the better part of a decade,

::

eight years,

::

and talking a lot about religion,

::

philosophy, ethics, culture,

::

and whatever.

::

Mindfulness, healing.

::

Random things come into our mind.

::

That's a very...

::

um level-headed description

::

of what we do sometimes

::

it's a bit chaotic

::

sometimes it's just

::

claymation yep and it

::

doesn't make sense yeah a

::

little comedy sprinkled in

::

there too um claymation is

::

some of my favorite by the

::

way i love it real one have

::

we got a podcast for you

::

We've had you on our show before,

::

a great episode.

::

I was just talking to my

::

partner today about that

::

episode and just how wise

::

you are and not on the

::

superficial level that

::

sometimes these

::

conversations take place at

::

where it's like, oh yeah,

::

saying the right therapy terms,

::

but a deeply embodied wisdom.

::

You can tell that this is

::

something that you care deeply about and

::

are both well-studied and

::

well-experienced and just

::

such a big heart.

::

And so we're very happy to be on the show.

::

Thank you so much.

::

I will pay you later for that endorsement.

::

That was wonderful.

::

You know our rate.

::

I always tell people I am

::

not any kind of licensed

::

professional of any kind.

::

I don't know.

::

I haven't studied mental health,

::

but I am an expert in my own trauma.

::

And so I hopefully can help that,

::

use that to help other

::

people to heal from their trauma,

::

their experiences as well.

::

And we talked a lot about

::

body shame when I was on your show.

::

mm-hmm

::

i remember body

::

shaming when you came on

::

our youtube channel that

::

was one of the

::

conversations i wish we

::

could have dug in a bit

::

deeper but obviously

::

there's so much to talk

::

about in one episode

::

Yeah.

::

There always seems to be so

::

much to talk about and so little time.

::

And the two of you are so

::

intelligent and well-spoken

::

and I really appreciate our

::

conversations together.

::

And so who knows how long, you know,

::

this will go on.

::

At some point we're going to

::

need to eat and sleep and everything,

::

but we can talk for a really long time.

::

Yay.

::

Yay.

::

So in your,

::

what would you say would be

::

sort of your turning point

::

for each of you when we talk about,

::

you know, on the midlife revolution,

::

we talk about just sort of a time when,

::

when you sort of wake up

::

from the treadmill life and

::

you start to sort of

::

question whether or not the

::

things in your life are

::

what you really want for the longterm.

::

And so maybe each of you

::

could say what that moment was for you,

::

or at least one of the moments.

::

Well,

::

I love that you called it the

::

treadmill life because my

::

treadmill moment was

::

literally as I was working

::

for a treadmill company

::

selling treadmills.

::

So true.

::

And it just felt like such a

::

perfect metaphor.

::

That's amazing.

::

Just being on this track to

::

nowhere constantly and, you know, yeah,

::

and no,

::

nothing against the people I

::

worked with or, you know.

::

Or treadmills.

::

Or treadmills, you know,

::

home fitness is great.

::

Yeah.

::

But for me, I mean,

::

this was all like the

::

church stuff had all just

::

happened prior where I

::

realized through after a long,

::

prolonged investigation

::

into the truth claims of my

::

religion after having

::

graduated the church

::

university and gone on a

::

mission and the works and

::

having had all that crumble,

::

I found myself, you know,

::

working in this office,

::

looking up at the mountains

::

and every day from, you know, the

::

from the light of day to the dark,

::

just being stuck in this building going,

::

what am I doing here?

::

And got to the point where I

::

was actually like kind of being like,

::

Hmm,

::

I don't know that I want to

::

be here at all.

::

Like it, this just doesn't seem worth it.

::

And you know,

::

I've realized that a lot of

::

people have jobs that they

::

don't necessarily love and

::

they have to work in an

::

office all day and it's, you know,

::

not the worst thing in the

::

world for everybody.

::

But for me,

::

I just knew that there was something,

::

well, I didn't know actually,

::

I think I was just really,

::

really scared and being like,

::

I don't want to do this.

::

And it was through,

::

lots of conversations with lots of people,

::

but I remember specifically with, um,

::

a friend and kind of a

::

mentor who I called just in

::

a moment of deep panic.

::

And, uh, he said to me, like,

::

you're a maker.

::

You need to be making things.

::

You need to be self-expressing.

::

You need to be around people

::

who are creating things like do it,

::

take the plunge.

::

Like this is your escape out

::

of the rat race and you

::

just have to like do it.

::

And that was definitely a

::

turning point for me.

::

Yeah, that's so excellent.

::

And I think that when we're

::

raised in the Mormon church,

::

we're raised to search for

::

meaning and purpose in our lives.

::

And so when the church

::

aspect or the religious

::

aspect of it goes away,

::

I think a lot of us are

::

left wondering what is the

::

meaning of life now?

::

What is my purpose now?

::

Who am I now?

::

And we all have to ask

::

ourselves those questions.

::

yeah and and you know when

::

for me like a lot of people

::

you know they do mormonism

::

and they do other things

::

for me mormonism was like

::

the only thing i had other

::

interests technically but

::

only in as much as they

::

were useful to the church

::

and all my creativity and

::

self-expression was all

::

you know, church oriented.

::

So when that went away,

::

I literally had nothing.

::

And, you know,

::

maybe I could go do a normal,

::

I couldn't do a normal job today, but,

::

you know,

::

maybe if I had had a better

::

established sense of

::

purpose or was pursuing

::

something more aligned with

::

my creative interests,

::

but I just didn't even care

::

up until that point.

::

And then I found myself like, oh,

::

I built this whole life for

::

myself that I don't like or

::

enjoy or care about at all,

::

simply because there was

::

just this one thing that I was serving.

::

And when that went away, I had nothing.

::

Yeah, I feel like, I mean,

::

despite its impact on our

::

financial stability,

::

like we did get lucky in

::

the sense that our getting

::

off the treadmill moment

::

was while we were interns

::

right after graduating college.

::

So I feel like that sort of helped,

::

you know what I mean?

::

Well, I guess your next job,

::

the treadmill job was right after that,

::

but it does feel kind of

::

like a blessing in some

::

ways to have your whole

::

worldview fall apart in

::

your early twenties.

::

Cause that's the time when like,

::

you don't we didn't have

::

responsibilities so we were

::

like able to embrace a

::

level of flexibility and uh

::

at times poverty that you

::

wouldn't be able to do if

::

you like had a family or

::

definitely yeah so that was

::

kind of a gift

::

Yeah.

::

So you were still kind of

::

establishing yourself as

::

human beings anyway,

::

and still kind of

::

establishing your life and

::

your goals and everything.

::

So maybe it was a little bit

::

of a blessing that it came

::

so early because first of all,

::

you had so much more time

::

in the future to look forward to,

::

but also you hadn't really

::

put down roots that needed

::

to be pulled up when you

::

left the religion.

::

Yeah, we both had, I mean,

::

like well-paying

::

copywriting jobs that we

::

were quickly realizing we

::

weren't going to be able to

::

survive in for very long.

::

That's kind of a, yeah,

::

just an interesting note

::

that we had the same job

::

and we were both just dying in our jobs.

::

Yeah, so Samantha,

::

can you talk a little bit

::

about your treadmill moment?

::

Yeah.

::

Although I'm sure it's not

::

going to be as literal as Tanner's.

::

I also worked for a

::

treadmill company competing.

::

Yeah, so I wasn't raised in Mormonism.

::

I converted at sixteen.

::

But all through growing up

::

and then I suppose at BYU-Idaho,

::

I was very committed to

::

academic success as sort of

::

like an anchor, you know, and a...

::

Especially growing up in England,

::

it was sort of like my

::

whole sense of self and

::

safety was found in academic success.

::

And then, yeah,

::

leaving the church and having your whole,

::

our whole worldview pulled

::

out from under us.

::

I mean,

::

it really did just make me evaluate

::

everything and also

::

starting to get a sense of

::

like the world of work.

::

And realizing, like, for whatever reason,

::

like,

::

the commitment I had to academic success,

::

like,

::

didn't transfer to the world of work

::

where it just felt like so

::

much of what I was doing

::

was just kind of meaningless or busy work,

::

which I know is something

::

so many people struggle with, you know,

::

just feeling like the work

::

you're doing is a bit...

::

I don't know,

::

sort of abstract or you don't

::

feel like you're

::

meaningfully contributing

::

to the world and that

::

really can eat away at you.

::

I feel like when you

::

still have Mormonism in your life,

::

you're like, well,

::

this is just a job and my

::

ultimate purpose is to

::

serve God and to lift up

::

the kingdom and all those things.

::

But then when that was

::

pulled out from under me, I was like,

::

well, the work I choose to do is...

::

kind of everything you know

::

like the contribution I

::

make to the world matters

::

now or it matters way more

::

than it did before um also

::

I feel like my treadmill

::

moment really if I'm being

::

honest just came by virtue

::

of the fact that I just

::

like have never been able

::

to thrive in like a

::

structured working for

::

someone else situation like

::

I've had a million jobs

::

throughout my life and have

::

just struggled in all of

::

them however much I like

::

wanted to do well in them or was like

::

technically good at the

::

actual work I just found

::

like the environments uh

::

I'm just like having to

::

like sit in a certain spot

::

for eight hours a day and

::

like I just found all of that like

::

honestly impossible and I'm

::

like I'm hearing myself and

::

I'm imagining a lot of

::

people being like okay you

::

know lazy millennial thinks

::

they have ADHD I am

::

diagnosed with ADHD if

::

that's worth anything but

::

yeah I just I think again

::

when I was younger with

::

academics you know doing well in school

::

I was still young enough to

::

where my ego was so wrapped

::

up in it that it had like this,

::

it all felt naturally worth it to me.

::

But then I just didn't get like the,

::

the egoic boost out of a

::

job that I got when I was

::

younger and like trying to

::

be the top of the class or whatever.

::

So it just suddenly, yeah,

::

I feel like I'm waffling a lot,

::

but basically I've always

::

been bad at jobs and I have

::

to unshame that because I've tried,

::

I always had jobs.

::

I wasn't,

::

someone who like you know

::

always got a free ride or

::

anything like that but

::

just i also feel like it's

::

really hard to go from like

::

you were saying when you're

::

in the church and you feel

::

like your higher purpose is

::

like preparing for the next

::

life and you know you're

::

you're literally getting

::

ready to have your own planet

::

It's kind of hard to go from

::

that level of meaning to

::

just working in a cubicle

::

every day and possibly

::

doing paperwork and things like that.

::

And I totally identify with

::

the ADHD aspect of it

::

because if you're not

::

motivated to do something,

::

if it's not interesting to you,

::

that's when the procrastination comes in.

::

And then you just don't, you don't do it.

::

you don't want to

::

accomplish it.

::

And I think honestly,

::

it's really not the millennial thing.

::

I think that millennials get

::

such a bad rap for being

::

quote unquote lazy or not

::

wanting to do quote unquote real work,

::

but

::

for a

::

lot of the time,

::

if you're going into a corporate job,

::

you're asking somebody to

::

kind of push paper around and,

::

report to someone else on

::

kind of menial tasks,

::

and you don't really feel

::

like you're a part of

::

something important.

::

And there used to be this sort of notion,

::

like back in my grandparents' day,

::

where if you went to

::

college and you got a

::

degree and then you got a good job,

::

you were with the same

::

company for your whole career.

::

And you felt like you were a part of it.

::

And you could actually buy a

::

house and...

::

no yeah our generation is

::

like the first generation

::

just saying something about

::

it because we're not

::

getting the same

::

consequences like we don't

::

yeah we don't get to be

::

homeowners we don't we can

::

have great paying jobs and

::

it's still like it's not

::

yielding the fruits it used

::

to for our parents or

::

grandparents which

::

definitely makes the

::

difference also we'd both

::

be like at our like you

::

know professional writing

::

jobs like secretly writing

::

about the church on the

::

side because it was like I

::

suppose in that sense we

::

weren't lazy we just

::

weren't passionate about

::

Corporate writing?

::

Exactly.

::

And when you're a writer and

::

you're a creator,

::

you want to write about

::

things that interest you

::

and that you're passionate about.

::

And so writing from an

::

assignment someone else is

::

giving you that doesn't

::

have a lot of meaning for you,

::

I can imagine must have

::

been pretty mind numbing as well.

::

Well,

::

when you've just felt that loss of

::

your whole worldview and your faith,

::

it's like suddenly the

::

stakes of life just feel so high.

::

And when you're trying to

::

figure out like your reason

::

for being or whether there

::

even is a reason to continue being,

::

which is something we both struggled with,

::

it's very hard to put on the sort of

::

corporate face they want you

::

to put on and pretend like

::

writing about treadmills is

::

the thing you were put on

::

God's earth to do.

::

And it's your dream to be in

::

this conference room at this moment.

::

Hey, I could never take that seriously.

::

You know, they're like,

::

are we so excited for this

::

upcoming thing?

::

And I'm like, no, to be honest,

::

not really.

::

You guys pay me money.

::

It's not like this is my

::

heart's desire since I was a child.

::

Tanner,

::

we are so excited because we've

::

totally rearranged the

::

buttons on the treadmill

::

and we want you to write all about it.

::

That's literally it.

::

That was it.

::

That was the job.

::

Yeah.

::

One of the other things that

::

I've been thinking about

::

and talking a lot about

::

also is that when you leave the church,

::

and you sort of let go of

::

this idea of preparing for the afterlife,

::

suddenly this life becomes

::

a lot more meaningful.

::

And I think a lot of us in

::

the church sort of give

::

less importance and meaning

::

to the life that we're

::

having right now because

::

we're looking so forward to

::

things being better in the afterlife.

::

So I don't know if you felt this,

::

but when I left the church

::

and there was no longer

::

this belief in an afterlife, for me,

::

it changed my entire

::

perspective on what I'm

::

doing in this life right now.

::

it made me want to do

::

things that were even more

::

meaningful in this life, like my career,

::

you know,

::

doing something that was

::

important or meaningful.

::

Yeah,

::

I sometimes get the hunch

::

that the afterlife was

::

invented for that purpose,

::

to detach people from this life,

::

to put less emphasis on it,

::

to convince people to do

::

things that they wouldn't

::

otherwise do if they felt

::

that this life was it.

::

Yeah, I agree with you on that.

::

And also to sort of diminish the pain,

::

you know,

::

it's sort of like that opiate of

::

the masses idea where if

::

what we're going through in

::

this life is unpleasant or difficult,

::

we can just dismiss it away

::

by taking the drug of, well,

::

things will be better in the next world.

::

Yeah,

::

which I do understand the appeal of

::

that because this world is

::

so full of suffering and

::

just dealing with mortality

::

is really hard.

::

And so I understand the

::

impulse to want to believe

::

that there's more,

::

that there's some kind of

::

divine justice that will play out.

::

But I think what that ends up doing is...

::

You know,

::

procrastinating the day of our living,

::

as it were, like, you know,

::

we rather than fully grieving, you know,

::

the pain and the suffering and the loss,

::

we just put it off and then

::

we never actually confront life.

::

And because we're not

::

confronted with our own grief,

::

we also miss out on the joy.

::

That's the flip side of that,

::

because if you live.

::

in the awareness of grief of

::

mortality of loss then all

::

your joy is like through

::

the roof every minute

::

you're well you know not

::

all the time but it's uh

::

you know it's it sucks a

::

lot of it but also you are

::

it informs that so you know

::

when i'm spending time with

::

a loved one i'm really

::

trying to spend time with a

::

loved one because i know

::

how precious that moment really is

::

And knowing that I'll have

::

to grieve the death of my friends,

::

of my family,

::

informs the way that I

::

interact with them.

::

Rather than being like, oh, well, you know,

::

I'll see him when I see him.

::

We'll have eternity to hang out.

::

Or like,

::

how can I earn spiritual brownie

::

points from this interaction?

::

How can this secure me up a

::

bigger mansion in heaven?

::

Right.

::

Yeah, exactly.

::

I think it does help me to

::

savor the relationships

::

that I have and prioritize

::

time with quality people and to not,

::

you know,

::

not put things off for later and say, oh,

::

yeah, we'll connect later.

::

I have forever to deal with that.

::

So it does change your perspective.

::

Can you each talk a little

::

bit about some of the small

::

changes that you began to

::

make after your transition out of faith?

::

And what were some of the

::

small changes that you made

::

that ended up being really important?

::

I have a treadmill related story.

::

Way to keep us on track.

::

So we, I mean,

::

we both went through like a

::

very depressed,

::

nihilistic phase after

::

leaving the church.

::

And I can't remember how

::

long I'd been in that phase for,

::

maybe about a year of just

::

feeling like life had no meaning.

::

And yeah, I just couldn't find...

::

any joy in life,

::

except for I did get a cat

::

called Clickbait and he

::

kind of brought me back to life,

::

having another living thing to care for.

::

That started a snowball

::

effect of imbuing my life

::

with meaning again.

::

But I remember about a year to two years,

::

probably a year and a half

::

after the complete collapse of our faith,

::

I started listening to this

::

podcast called My Dad Wrote a Porno,

::

which is just like this

::

comedy podcast in the UK.

::

And the podcast was so good

::

and so funny that I just

::

remember thinking in my mind,

::

I'm going to want to binge

::

this constantly.

::

So I might as well like move

::

my body while I do it

::

because I can't sit still anyway.

::

So I was like,

::

I'm going to listen to an

::

episode a day and go to my

::

apartment gym and walk on

::

the treadmill for the

::

length of that episode,

::

like thirty minutes.

::

And prior to this, for like a year,

::

I just like, I hadn't been moving.

::

I hadn't been like treating my body right.

::

I just wasn't motivated to

::

like live a healthy life

::

physically or spiritually

::

or emotionally or anything.

::

And just starting to do this

::

one half an hour thing

::

every single day was like

::

my entry point back into

::

life again as physically,

::

silly or not silly as it

::

might sound at number one

::

obviously like the benefits

::

of moving for half an hour

::

a day can't be overstated

::

but it was like I had this

::

anchor you know I had this

::

promise I would keep to

::

myself every single day and

::

I didn't just immediately

::

make you know everything

::

wonderful but it it's like

::

if you can just start with

::

one thing then you you

::

naturally usually do build

::

on top of that because you

::

start like believing

::

yourself to be capable and

::

you know,

::

even just getting some good

::

endorphins every day,

::

I'm sure was lending itself

::

to me then having other

::

ideas about how I can

::

enhance my the quality of

::

my day to day life.

::

And I was lucky enough to be

::

freelance writing at this

::

time I was doing SEO blogging,

::

which was also soul destroying,

::

but in a different way

::

where I could keep my own schedule.

::

So I was kind of able to

::

like build my life brick by

::

brick at that time,

::

which I feel grateful for.

::

Yeah,

::

I'm definitely a fan of the just

::

change one thing instead of

::

trying to get overwhelmed

::

with a list of things that

::

you want to be different in your life.

::

So I love that you just did

::

that thing and that led to other things.

::

And also, I liked your comment about,

::

you know,

::

the the SEO being freelance

::

while the work itself maybe

::

was a little numbing.

::

at least you had some time freedom.

::

And I think that not enough

::

people appreciate how much

::

time freedom has a huge

::

impact on your life because

::

then you have the ability

::

to sort of work on other

::

projects or to at least

::

have some differentiation

::

in your day so that you're

::

not constantly on the same

::

exact schedule every day.

::

So if you have a job that you hate,

::

but at least you have time freedom,

::

that's a lot better than

::

just a job that you hate at

::

a location that you hate.

::

Yeah, so true.

::

Time freedom is everything.

::

And it is stressful and

::

frustrating the way our

::

current systems are keeping people just,

::

I mean,

::

they're giving all of their life

::

force to companies,

::

their precious life energy,

::

and then people are so

::

drained after that.

::

I did end up like going back

::

to an in-office job for

::

like four more years.

::

But that feeling of like

::

you've technically done a four days work,

::

but really you've kind of

::

just like mindlessly sat in

::

an office for eight hours,

::

even if you've done some

::

work in that time.

::

And then you just have

::

nothing left to give at the

::

end of the day.

::

So you don't have the

::

ability to like turn things around.

::

It feels like a lot of times

::

because it's you're

::

understandably just completely sapped.

::

That's a hard situation to be in.

::

Yeah.

::

And I think that the remote situation,

::

if you're lucky enough to

::

have a job that's remote,

::

even a couple of days a week,

::

it gives you the ability to like,

::

I can be at home and

::

tidying while I'm listening

::

to a conference call.

::

I don't have to be just in

::

my cubicle focused on something.

::

And I've had a couple of

::

jobs where there wasn't

::

enough work to do.

::

And that's one of the

::

situations that I'm in right now.

::

And that

::

in itself also is equally

::

terrible and mind numbing.

::

But at least I can work

::

remote a lot of the time.

::

And then I can be working on

::

other projects like this,

::

instead of sitting at a

::

desk waiting for something

::

to happen so that I can

::

have something to do.

::

So I appreciate your standpoint on that.

::

What about you, Tanner?

::

What was something that was

::

a small change you made

::

that maybe later led to

::

other things that were super important?

::

Um,

::

I probably similar to Samantha's I'd

::

say the,

::

like one of the biggest shifts of

::

coming out of Mormonism and

::

into the direction that my

::

life has taken now is just

::

becoming more in touch with my body.

::

And like in Mormonism,

::

my body was always my enemy at worst,

::

or just like

::

I don't know,

::

sort of an inconvenience at best.

::

It was like this thing I had

::

to deal with until I get back to heaven.

::

And in the meantime,

::

just try to punch in the

::

clock and do the things and

::

make God happy.

::

But realizing that my body,

::

my experience in this flesh vessel is it.

::

For me, it's always going to be this.

::

And the way that I feel about it,

::

the way that I treat it,

::

is going to affect me for

::

the rest of my life.

::

So it's an ongoing journey

::

of like really learning to

::

love and listen to myself

::

to like understand my

::

internal feelings and sensations.

::

and to honor my needs and

::

desires and to create space

::

to express those and to

::

seek out the things that are good for me,

::

whether that's exercise,

::

whether that's making sure

::

I'm spending quality time in nature,

::

whether that's eating properly, which,

::

you know, still an ongoing thing,

::

but better than it's been.

::

And so, yeah,

::

I'd say like embodiment is

::

the word of the day for me on that one.

::

Yeah,

::

I feel like we get taught so much in

::

Mormonism to dissociate

::

from our bodies and to be

::

ashamed of our bodies

::

because they're just

::

basically a sin factory.

::

Whether, you know,

::

whether showing my corn

::

shoulder over here or, you know,

::

or whether trying to deny

::

ourselves of basic,

::

normal human developmental needs.

::

And then also we get taught

::

to dissociate from our own feelings.

::

And to basically reassign

::

our feelings to be some

::

kind of a spiritual meaning

::

or a connection to the Holy Ghost.

::

And I don't know if you guys

::

have read this,

::

but I just finished reading

::

Jeanette McCurdy's I'm Glad

::

My Mom's Dead book.

::

So amazing.

::

And she talks about that,

::

how like she was as an eight year old,

::

so looking forward to

::

hearing the voice of the

::

Holy Ghost and praying for it actively.

::

And I want to hear it and I

::

can't wait to hear it.

::

And then when she did hear it,

::

what she was attributing to

::

be the Holy Ghost was actually OCD.

::

And it was it turned into these behaviors,

::

these obsessive behaviors.

::

But she was glad for them

::

because she thought that

::

was the Holy Ghost telling

::

her what to do.

::

And so in Mormonism,

::

we get taught that there's

::

so much importance on this

::

other voice that's coming from God.

::

And we stop listening to our

::

own instincts and following

::

our own instincts about what we need.

::

And it sounds like you guys

::

can identify with that at least a little.

::

Yeah, it definitely has been, I mean,

::

a decade long process to

::

get more in touch with my

::

body and feelings.

::

And because I feel like one

::

thing we've been talking

::

about a lot lately on our

::

channel is unshaming work.

::

And I feel like you can't deeply,

::

you can't connect with

::

yourself at the deepest

::

level if you won't like

::

allow yourself to remove

::

the shame that covers a lot

::

of the feelings and desires

::

and thoughts and stuff that you have.

::

Cause you can't bring like

::

the level of curiosity you

::

need to understand yourself

::

if shame is in the way.

::

Yeah.

::

I think it's such a big part

::

of the gospel of, you know,

::

the LDS gospel is,

::

is like being ashamed of

::

who you are because we,

::

even though the LDS church talks about,

::

you know,

::

you're pure until you're eight years old,

::

um,

::

I feel like there's still a

::

lot of shame attached to

::

behaviors before you even get baptized.

::

And it's like you have to be

::

clean in order to get baptized.

::

You have to pass that interview.

::

So you have to tell the

::

bishop that you're already, you know,

::

that you're doing everything right.

::

And if you're not,

::

there is just basically that shame.

::

The whole thing is shame based, you know,

::

so we have to go repent

::

because we're inherently

::

bad and we're never going

::

to be as clean as we were

::

on the day we were baptized.

::

And so then we get to be

::

ashamed of ourselves and

::

our actions and our bodies

::

and everything for the rest of eternity.

::

and have this constant need to repent.

::

So I don't know what your experience was,

::

but when I finally signed

::

the paper to resign from

::

the church and sent it off,

::

I literally did feel shame

::

leaving my body.

::

I felt like this huge relief

::

and release also of all of

::

the parts of myself that I

::

had repressed or been ashamed of,

::

that now I could finally

::

allow an equal seat at the table.

::

I could finally welcome

::

those parts of myself and

::

not feel ashamed of them anymore.

::

I don't know if you had

::

something similar like that.

::

I got chills when you said

::

that just because it was so relatable.

::

I always say that I felt

::

like there was this tight

::

rope just knotted in my

::

stomach for years that I

::

had just gotten to the

::

point where I didn't even notice.

::

It was just a regular aspect of me.

::

And then when I left the church,

::

I felt it just release and

::

I felt relaxed for the first time ever.

::

in as long as i could

::

remember it was a huge

::

weight that was lifted and

::

not just because like oh

::

now i can do any bad thing

::

i want it was just like i'm

::

okay like they've been

::

telling me i've been sick

::

and they've been you know

::

you're horrible you're sick

::

you got it you need us so

::

that you can be worthy

::

again so that you can be

::

pure and that was all just malarkey

::

Yeah,

::

it's like they say that people leave

::

the church because they want to sin.

::

And if I had to like reframe that,

::

it would be like, no,

::

I left the church so that I

::

could love myself.

::

Yep.

::

Yeah, I truly love myself, others.

::

It was like, oh,

::

I don't have to shame myself.

::

I don't have to shame other people.

::

I don't have to force people

::

to try to live the

::

standards that I'm trying to force.

::

We don't have to do any of this.

::

Right.

::

benefiting a few

::

guys over in Salt Lake, but not me.

::

This isn't making me a happier, healthier,

::

more loving person.

::

Right.

::

Exactly.

::

And for me, too,

::

it was an opportunity to

::

finally listen to the ideas

::

and experiences of other

::

people authentically and

::

give their ideas

::

and experiences validity

::

and meaning rather than

::

dismissing it and saying, well,

::

aren't you cute?

::

You just don't know the whole truth.

::

You know, so condescending.

::

Such a treat to be able to

::

listen to the experiences

::

of others for the first time.

::

to accept

::

other philosophical ideals

::

and other religious ideas

::

and other tools from other

::

spiritual modalities to be

::

able to look at them and say, oh,

::

there's some value in that.

::

There's something important there.

::

I like that idea.

::

I think, you know,

::

that's valid rather than to

::

just dismiss it because

::

it's not the ideal that we got taught.

::

Yeah.

::

Mm-hmm.

::

Didn't come from Salt Lake City, Utah,

::

so therefore can't possibly be true.

::

Yeah,

::

if an old white dude didn't say it

::

from the pulpit, then it's not valid.

::

Doesn't count.

::

Doesn't count.

::

I had this one really powerful moment,

::

actually,

::

when I was sort of reviewing

::

some of my shelf items,

::

kind of going back and thinking,

::

what were some of the things that...

::

Made me start questioning my faith.

::

And I think the biggest one

::

for me or the first big one

::

for me was the November,

::

twenty fifteen policy when that came out.

::

And I remember having this

::

really emotional experience

::

when the policy was read from the pulpit.

::

Because at the time I was a

::

choir teacher and I had

::

been bringing my students

::

to church to sing on

::

Christmas and Easter.

::

And I taught a lot of LGBTQ students.

::

And I was thinking to myself, you know,

::

how can I now invite them

::

into the church knowing how harmful,

::

how openly harmful the

::

church is towards the LGBTQ population?

::

And I just kept thinking to myself, like,

::

if I identify myself with

::

this organization,

::

my students are not dumb.

::

They're going to look at

::

that and they're going to say, okay, well,

::

she's a part of this church

::

that doesn't like us.

::

So maybe she doesn't like us

::

and we can't trust her either.

::

That was one of my really big things.

::

And when I was going back

::

through it in therapy,

::

sorry to be self-referential right now,

::

but I'm just like having this mind block.

::

I need to talk about it.

::

When I,

::

when I was going through processing

::

that in therapy,

::

why I was feeling so

::

terrible about that policy,

::

it was because I had this,

::

this vision when I was processing it,

::

I had this vision of all my

::

parts at the table.

::

This is kind of how I

::

envisioned myself is like this,

::

We all have a seat at this oval table.

::

And when the twenty fifteen

::

policy was announced,

::

it was like the bisexual

::

part of me stood up.

::

And wanted to say something,

::

but even at that time,

::

I still could not admit

::

that I was bisexual and she

::

still didn't get to have a voice.

::

She was just standing there

::

waiting for me to acknowledge her.

::

And I still couldn't.

::

And so when I finally did

::

leave the church and that shame left,

::

it was like she was finally

::

allowed to speak and she

::

had a lot to say.

::

And she was finally able to

::

like release all the

::

emotions that she'd been

::

repressing that whole time.

::

And she finally felt like

::

she had a voice and an

::

equal seat at the table.

::

And so for me,

::

definitely leaving the

::

church was about loving and

::

accepting all those parts

::

of myself and being able to

::

let go of the shame that

::

was placed upon me because

::

I didn't fit into that Mormon box.

::

Did you ever,

::

did you have that shame

::

return at any later point?

::

Like, it sounds like once you resigned,

::

there was a shedding, but did you,

::

have you had to like battle

::

it popping back up and like

::

driving the car again at times?

::

Not really,

::

because along with releasing

::

the shame that I felt for

::

all the parts of me that

::

were not acceptable in Mormonism,

::

I also released the

::

importance of anyone else's

::

opinion about who I am.

::

No longer having to report

::

to a bishop to be declared

::

worthy to go to the temple

::

and no longer having to

::

talk about my experiences in

::

an edited way in church.

::

Now I can talk about my

::

experiences in a completely

::

unedited way with a brand

::

new lens of there was never

::

anything wrong with me.

::

You know,

::

what was wrong was the culture

::

that I was in.

::

So the shame that I felt in

::

the past came a lot from, you know,

::

me shaming myself for not fitting in,

::

but it also came from

::

having to report to other

::

authority figures,

::

knowing that I would be

::

unacceptable to them and to

::

certain family members and

::

things like that.

::

So I wonder that for you guys too,

::

about not having to feel

::

like you had to ask someone

::

else for your worthiness

::

Did you feel a level of

::

personal worthiness return

::

when you finally left?

::

I feel like that had to have

::

been more of an intense

::

phenomenon for you because

::

you were raised in it.

::

Yeah.

::

And, you know, I, in the church,

::

had strived really hard to

::

be worthy in all aspects.

::

Like, I always had a temple recommend,

::

always took the sacrament.

::

But even so,

::

it was to stay out of trouble

::

and I was always hyper

::

vigilant about everything I

::

was doing and everything

::

that I was watching and

::

everything happening in my

::

body because at any moment

::

I could be betrayed by

::

myself and be on the devil's path.

::

Like I said,

::

letting go of all of that was

::

just this great release.

::

easing back into just being

::

and I love that you brought

::

up the November policy that

::

was the reason we had like

::

left the church stopped

::

attending the church and

::

we're speaking out about it

::

but it wasn't until that

::

policy that I was like I

::

don't even want my name

::

associated with this organization

::

And a lot of the commentary

::

that we see now against LGBTQ plus people,

::

against trans people, you know,

::

they frame it as like the

::

gender ideology movement

::

that's taking in.

::

And it's not really about gender.

::

It's not really about orientation.

::

It really is about shame,

::

about you are supposed to

::

be this specific ideal

::

thing that most people aren't, right?

::

Like most men aren't the...

::

six-foot-five, fully jacked, and, you know,

::

like, massive chin and delts, like,

::

you know.

::

Mewing every moment.

::

Mewing, yeah, exactly.

::

It's like most people just aren't that.

::

But there's this idea that

::

that's what you are

::

supposed to be and that

::

you're supposed to go off

::

to war and fight the

::

terrorists and work in the

::

factory and do all these

::

old-timey things that help

::

the shame economy function.

::

Mm.

::

And everybody for

::

generations has carried the

::

shame that they're not

::

living up to that thing,

::

that they're supposed to be

::

something else,

::

that they're supposed to

::

fall in line with these traditional,

::

that is to say, like, uh,

::

they're not traditional at

::

all is what I'm saying,

::

but these relatively recent

::

and Western American white

::

Anglo-Saxon Protestant

::

ideas about gender and orientation and,

::

uh,

::

self presentation and

::

expression and all that.

::

And it's just this thing

::

that gets passed on from

::

generation to generation

::

that you're supposed to be

::

this thing and you're not.

::

And you just have to live with the weight,

::

the crushing weight of that at all times.

::

And I personally think that

::

that just has horrible,

::

horrible ramifications,

::

even in our bodies,

::

like on a cellular level, it is not good.

::

good for us to experience

::

that and to carry that.

::

And when we say, hey, I'm bisexual.

::

Hey, I'm trans.

::

Hey, I'm going to wear a dress.

::

Hey,

::

I'm going to wear makeup or whatever

::

it is.

::

It's not about this

::

ideology that seeped into

::

the mind of the generation.

::

It's really just saying,

::

I refuse to be ashamed of

::

who I am and what I'm doing

::

based on some arbitrary

::

measure that you inherited.

::

I release myself from the

::

shame that you are putting onto me.

::

I love how Alok,

::

who's a trans poet and

::

artist and commentator, talks about this,

::

that it's this wound that

::

people aren't even allowed

::

to express when someone

::

sees an AMAB person walking

::

in a dress and they feel like, oh,

::

I'm just so rage.

::

Well, they're not mad at the dress.

::

They're not mad at that person.

::

They're mad because at some

::

point in their life,

::

Somebody else cut them off

::

from their joy and their

::

ability to express outside

::

of this very rigid,

::

fabricated boundary of what's acceptable.

::

And they're not even allowed

::

to talk about it.

::

It's this grief that can't

::

even be expressed.

::

And so this work that we're all doing,

::

I think, is expressing that.

::

that.

::

Yeah,

::

nothing triggers people more than

::

when you defy the rules,

::

the made up arbitrary rules

::

that they think are fixed reality.

::

So triggering for people.

::

Yeah.

::

So excellent.

::

Thank you.

::

Thank you.

::

And even people that do embody, you know,

::

for example, the gender ideals,

::

even people that present in

::

a way that is like they're

::

living up to the ideals,

::

they can still feel on some

::

subconscious level.

::

I think a lot of the time

::

how like fundamentally

::

fragile that is as a thing

::

to sort of like rest your

::

worth and identity on.

::

Yeah.

::

Because you could one day be

::

the six foot five masculine man.

::

And the next day you could

::

become paraplegic in a car accident.

::

Like everything is like, so,

::

temporary in this world and

::

so to to teach people that

::

like adhering to these

::

gender ideals is what's

::

gonna like anchor them it's

::

just like a stupidly flawed

::

premise and like people can

::

sense that so then they

::

constantly have to like go

::

to bat for it it's weird

::

It disconnects people from their power.

::

It's supposed to do that so

::

that when we feel ashamed, we feel weak,

::

we feel helpless,

::

we feel like we have to

::

turn to someone who's

::

stronger and more powerful

::

who can just tell us what to do.

::

I think that's why shame was invented,

::

just like the afterlife.

::

Yeah, to silence us.

::

Yeah, to disconnect us from ourselves,

::

to make us an enemy to ourselves.

::

So we're more easily controllable.

::

Yeah.

::

And then we're genuinely

::

scared of freedom because

::

like arbitrary rules give us an illusion.

::

Yeah, like the illusion of safety.

::

And like we love having a

::

blueprint and it's scary to

::

imagine that other people

::

are defying the blueprint

::

that you think is the blueprint.

::

Because then you're like, well,

::

then I have no blueprint.

::

So I have to attack them

::

because I can't be without my blueprint.

::

Right.

::

Yeah,

::

it's that definitely existential fear

::

of freedom that we all have,

::

where we would much rather be given,

::

like you say,

::

a blueprint because it

::

answers all of those

::

questions and we don't have

::

to think for ourselves.

::

It's so much easier.

::

But Tanner,

::

you touched on something that I

::

have been thinking a lot about lately too,

::

which is this connection

::

between shame and anger,

::

where when people who have

::

been in this repressed

::

system that was handed to them

::

don't feel safe to express themselves.

::

When they see other people

::

expressing themselves freely,

::

it's like a mirror gets

::

held up to them and they

::

see those parts of

::

themselves that they're ashamed of.

::

And that shame creates this

::

anger and they have to

::

direct the anger towards

::

the person who's expressing

::

themselves freely.

::

And I feel like that's what

::

happens to Mormons and ex-Mormons.

::

I feel like that's what

::

happens to people who

::

haven't expressed their

::

sexuality but have sort of

::

put it into a box because

::

it's more socially acceptable.

::

I feel like that's happened

::

to so many groups of people.

::

And I was reading a really

::

interesting story, actually,

::

about a man who is in the

::

boomer generation.

::

And he had these desires to

::

just express himself with

::

the way that he dressed.

::

And he was curious about

::

dressing in women's

::

clothing and things like that.

::

But it was definitely not

::

acceptable in his family.

::

It wasn't acceptable in his religion.

::

And so he sort of repressed

::

all of those feelings.

::

And then he talked about

::

being an angry father and

::

how he was just angry all the time.

::

and never really had a

::

realization when his kids

::

were younger that the anger

::

was coming from that shame

::

and how many regrets he had

::

about those kinds of things.

::

And that really resonated with me.

::

It's kind of close to home for me,

::

admittedly, but I wonder how many people

::

are vehemently opposed to

::

the openness of LGBTQ

::

people expressing

::

themselves and Pride Month

::

and all those kinds of

::

things because they

::

themselves didn't ever have

::

the opportunity to be that

::

open about their expressions.

::

Oh, I mean, look right now,

::

here's a little microcosm

::

of the fact that, you know,

::

a part of the Republican platform,

::

whether officially or unofficially,

::

is to end gay marriage and

::

to strip away the one

::

rights of the LGBTQ plus community.

::

And then you look at how

::

Grindr is crashing in

::

Milwaukee due to the huge surge of people,

::

men,

::

Republicans in Milwaukee for the RNC

::

convention,

::

that there's so many that it's

::

crashing the platform.

::

So you're like,

::

what is it that you have

::

this big group of people

::

who's focused on

::

eliminating rights for this

::

community while they are

::

secretly and ashamedly

::

trying to live out those experiences.

::

So are you saying that the

::

platform is crashing in

::

Milwaukee just because the

::

convention is in Milwaukee?

::

That's so crazy.

::

Yeah, there were so many gay Republicans.

::

But of course,

::

it's because Antifa was

::

sneaking into Milwaukee and

::

starting up Grindr accounts

::

to make it look like Republicans.

::

I haven't heard about Antifa in a while.

::

I have to say, too,

::

it's always stunning and shocking to me,

::

and it shouldn't be because

::

it happens all the time.

::

But it seems like the politicians,

::

whether they're Democratic or Republican,

::

who are so vehemently

::

opposed to LGBTQ rights or

::

whatever it is,

::

that it then comes out that

::

they're actually gay, you know,

::

or they get caught doing

::

something inappropriate or

::

whatever the case is.

::

In democratic circles,

::

I think it's more often the

::

affairs that come out and

::

things like that.

::

But they're just so

::

vehemently for like

::

traditional family values.

::

And then it comes out that they're just,

::

you know,

::

they're just like the rest of us,

::

you know,

::

they're not to be held up on a pedestal.

::

I'm always surprised that

::

I'm shocked by it because

::

it keeps happening over and

::

over and over.

::

I also really like the

::

example you just gave of

::

the story of the dad who

::

wanted to wear women's

::

clothes because I feel like

::

that's an example of how

::

like it's a relatively small thing,

::

him wearing women's clothes.

::

Like the clothes we wear,

::

relatively unimportant,

::

though they do carry social

::

weight and stuff.

::

But just because he wasn't able to allow,

::

give himself permission to

::

do that small thing,

::

it like turns into this

::

massive festering wound

::

that has all these

::

unintended consequences

::

You know what I mean?

::

Like it's something that could,

::

if we just unshame everything,

::

something that could just

::

be so relatively small

::

turns into a way bigger beast.

::

But we think that by shaming ourselves,

::

we're like containing the beast,

::

but really we're just like

::

giving it more life and

::

more power over our lives

::

and other people.

::

Yeah, exactly.

::

The message that I took away

::

from that is how

::

dysfunctional we can become

::

when we don't address

::

whatever it is that we're struggling with,

::

when we repress it or when

::

we try to push it away or

::

dissociate from it.

::

And it's exactly as you say,

::

we're not we're not taming the beast,

::

we're feeding it.

::

And we're also locking it in a cage.

::

So that whole time it's

::

getting bigger and bigger

::

and fiercer and fiercer.

::

And eventually it takes over

::

our entire psyche.

::

It's sort of like that

::

Jungian concept of the fact

::

that if we don't look at the shadow,

::

if we don't address the shadow,

::

if we don't accept the shadow,

::

then the shadow becomes our psyche.

::

It becomes who we are.

::

It's like you always hear

::

Mormons talk about how, you know,

::

if they didn't have the

::

rules of Mormonism containing them,

::

let's say the law of chastity,

::

they would just be crazy.

::

I don't know where I'd be without this.

::

Yeah,

::

they just think they'd be... Because

::

it's kind of like the same

::

principle as intuitive eating,

::

where it's like if you're

::

restricting your food for

::

long periods of time,

::

then you feel like if you

::

ever let yourself just like...

::

eat whatever you wanted you

::

would just binge forever

::

and ever and ever and like

::

in most cases that's not

::

true you would just like

::

restore balance within

::

yourself and learn to

::

listen to yourself better

::

and like things would be

::

healthier and you'd

::

actually think about that thing less like

::

Nobody thinks more about sex

::

than people in purity culture, you know,

::

but their false concept

::

while they're in it is just

::

like it's this damn waiting to burst.

::

And if it bursts,

::

it's just going to get so

::

nuts when actually if you

::

just give yourself

::

permission to do things

::

that are not harmful and

::

perfectly healthy.

::

That's it.

::

And then you have more

::

bandwidth for other things

::

like your work or whatever that may be.

::

Exactly.

::

And that makes me think of

::

these word of wisdom issues

::

and how physically

::

unhealthy a large

::

population of Mormonism is.

::

I always used to joke

::

that sugar is the alcohol

::

of the Mormon world,

::

because whenever I come to

::

Utah and there's like a

::

bakery on every corner and

::

soda shops popping up everywhere.

::

And when you even go into a restaurant,

::

they have a huge bakery counter,

::

a dessert counter or whatever it is.

::

And it just feels like this

::

substitution of like, oh,

::

we're not allowed to do all

::

these other vices,

::

but we can have as much sugar as we want.

::

We can become addicted to it

::

and we can be overweight

::

and that's just fine.

::

I always found that to be so

::

troubling because if you

::

really did follow the word

::

of wisdom with eating meat

::

sparingly and fruits only in their season,

::

but nobody talks about that.

::

I can't imagine somebody

::

going into a bishop's

::

interview for a temple

::

recommend and saying,

::

you know what Bishop I've

::

been doing really well but

::

the other day I was in the

::

grocery store and those

::

tangerines were so good I

::

just couldn't and they're

::

not in season I love how

::

Mormons now will be like no

::

God just like didn't mean

::

that about the meat thing

::

that just wasn't real and

::

it's like that's like a

::

part of the word of wisdom

::

that now there's good scientific health

::

uh like animal sentience

::

data to support that that's

::

actually a really smart

::

guideline like eat meat

::

sparingly only when you

::

absolutely must but that

::

just doesn't get any air

::

time because like they just

::

don't like doing it that

::

one's too hard they're like

::

how could he have known

::

about the harmful causes of

::

cigarettes it's like well

::

cigarettes have always made

::

people cough and have lung

::

issues like it's not like

::

people suddenly started

::

doing that and a lot like

::

yeah people have always been like

::

Doesn't seem to be helping

::

the respiratory process.

::

Tea and coffee,

::

objectively great for

::

lowering your all-cause mortality rate.

::

Didn't know about that one.

::

And not even to mention all

::

the temperance movement and

::

anti-smoking movements that

::

were popular at the time,

::

and also vegetarian movements.

::

and others like none of

::

these were original

::

thoughts and yet as you

::

said there's such a

::

disparity between what

::

mormons choose to enforce

::

and what they choose to

::

turn a blind eye toward

::

while still maintaining

::

absolute religious

::

supremacy in their minds

::

Yeah,

::

it's just another testament to me

::

that a lot of Mormonism is

::

cultural and not literal,

::

because if we did take the

::

Mormon scriptures literally,

::

life would be a lot

::

different for Mormons.

::

always shocked me, too,

::

as a gospel doctrine teacher,

::

whenever we would talk

::

about the Word of Wisdom.

::

And people would bring up caffeine.

::

And I'm like, no,

::

it's perfectly okay for you

::

to consume caffeine.

::

But they assume that because

::

tea and coffee are

::

mentioned in the Word of Wisdom,

::

that we shouldn't be consuming caffeine.

::

And really,

::

the spirit of the law is not to

::

consume anything in unhealthy amounts.

::

And that's when I always

::

talked about sugar.

::

And I was like...

::

We just cherry pick the

::

things that are convenient

::

for us or more convenient

::

for us or culturally acceptable.

::

Whether we're in Mormonism

::

or any other system,

::

it's like if you have a set

::

of rules that you're going to live by,

::

the integrity is in

::

adhering to those rules.

::

And if you're not going to

::

adhere to all of the rules,

::

then don't pretend that

::

you're better than someone else.

::

because you have rules and

::

the other community doesn't have rules.

::

And I think that goes back

::

to what you were saying, Samantha,

::

where so many people say, oh,

::

if I didn't have Mormonism, I would just,

::

I don't know where I would be.

::

And it's this crazy

::

implication that you need

::

laws or rules or

::

commandments to tell you

::

not to harm people

::

physically or not to

::

assault people or not to

::

have affairs or whatever the case is.

::

Like if that morality

::

doesn't already exist within you,

::

Mormonism is not going to

::

help you either.

::

I also feel like someone in

::

the comments is going to

::

point out me drinking this

::

aspartame lace fruit punch

::

as we have this

::

conversation about the Buddhism,

::

but unshamed drinking

::

aspartame lace fruit punch sometimes.

::

You know what?

::

Unshame just doing whatever

::

it is that you need to do

::

to get yourself out of bed

::

every day and be a

::

productive member of the

::

human family and just

::

unshame everything that we

::

do that we have to do in

::

order to be who we are,

::

because life is difficult.

::

And all of us have things

::

that we are working on and

::

hopefully all of us are

::

trying to progress to a

::

better version of ourselves.

::

Although I do have to say my

::

comment section is one of

::

the kindest places on the internet.

::

So probably nobody's going

::

to shame me for that.

::

It's a good merging then

::

because I feel like ours is

::

really nice as

::

based on the comment you just said,

::

I think another good thing

::

is just unshaming.

::

The fact that perfection is

::

not real and is not

::

something we should be aspiring to.

::

I think it's good to have a

::

growth mindset in life and to

::

have goals and to you know

::

want to be healthy and

::

successful and all those

::

things but not not if we're

::

just seeing ourselves as

::

this like continuous

::

project that needs to be

::

fixed and fine-tuned like I

::

feel like pursuing growth

::

and change like should come

::

from this place of like I

::

am like deeply enough as I am

::

And like the goal isn't to

::

just like reach this moral

::

purity or any kind of like

::

perceived purity.

::

It's really,

::

I feel like that's like comes

::

back to embodiment, you know,

::

and just like to,

::

to like pursue perfection

::

is like denying the reality

::

of the human condition.

::

And the fact that we all

::

speaking of parts work

::

contain contradictory parts.

::

And, you know,

::

we always hear this idea that like, well,

::

integrity is like,

::

your actions and thoughts

::

and being in alignment with

::

your beliefs and it's like

::

it's just not like that

::

realistic to think that we

::

can have like that perfect

::

alignment because we don't

::

we all contain

::

contradictory parts at any

::

given moment and i feel

::

like through unshaming we

::

can look at all those parts

::

and then decide which ones

::

we want to like lead the meeting

::

versus like sometimes we're

::

like giving voice to some

::

random niche part of us

::

that probably shouldn't be

::

like leading the meeting or

::

driving the car because

::

we're like that's the thing

::

that needs to be fixed but

::

then in like zeroing on

::

that too much we're like

::

sacrificing these other

::

like more important parts

::

of us potentially yeah i guess my rant

::

No, I agree with you.

::

And I struggled a lot with

::

perfectionism coming out of

::

the church throughout my entire life.

::

And so I love the idea of

::

having your work and your

::

growth come from a place of

::

just wanting to be better,

::

but not trying to be

::

perfect because

::

perfectionism doesn't exist.

::

And when we're working on

::

ourselves like we're a constant project,

::

That is almost a shaming mindset as well.

::

It's like, I'm not good enough yet.

::

I'm not good enough yet.

::

I have to keep working

::

rather than just to say,

::

I love myself exactly how I am right now.

::

I love myself exactly where

::

I am right now.

::

And all of the behaviors that I have are,

::

make up who I am.

::

And they're all positive

::

because they're helping me

::

to exist and persist in

::

this space that I'm at.

::

And we all have parts of

::

ourselves that maybe are, like you say,

::

they're in contradiction

::

because we're so complicated,

::

not only socially, but psychologically.

::

And being able to just

::

accept those parts and

::

is so freeing and it's okay

::

to say you know it's not my

::

favorite part i don't like

::

it the best sometimes it

::

comes out at the wrong time

::

but it still is acceptable

::

to me it's still part of me

::

i still love that part

::

we're going to figure out

::

how to make that part

::

healthier and happier

::

yeah because that's the

::

thing i feel like you have

::

more ability to like make

::

certain potentially

::

dysfunctional parts of you

::

or like you know parts for

::

you that have more

::

maladaptive behavior

::

mechanisms healthy if you

::

can love them which is kind

::

of like like we've been

::

talking about this a lot

::

lately like people think

::

that shame is the thing

::

holding everything together

::

and maybe it is in some

::

like messed up way but it's

::

like shame shouldn't be the

::

thing holding you together

::

Yeah,

::

I feel like that goes along with that

::

comment of, you know,

::

if I didn't have rules and commandments,

::

I would act out in these

::

dysfunctional ways.

::

That's because you're ashamed.

::

You know,

::

if you could be accepting instead,

::

then it would be easier for

::

you to manage.

::

I don't know, manage those parts.

::

I had something better to say,

::

but I forgot it.

::

That was really good, too.

::

It's funny to hear that

::

expressed when people are like,

::

I don't know where I'd be

::

without the gospel.

::

I would just be dead in a

::

ditch or running around crazy.

::

And it's like, you're telling us.

::

When you hear that,

::

it's such a sad representation,

::

a script that somebody's

::

been handed about themselves.

::

Yeah.

::

Yeah.

::

It's like, oh,

::

do you really think that

::

little of yourself?

::

Do you really think?

::

That natural man is an enemy to God.

::

Yeah, and it's like,

::

do you look around the world?

::

Is that what you see?

::

Is it you just see like

::

people outside the church

::

just killing everyone and, you know,

::

running rampant in the street?

::

It's like, no,

::

that's not what's happening.

::

Why would you assume that

::

would be you too?

::

Because you have a two

::

hundred billion dollar

::

corporation whispering it

::

in your ear at all times of the day,

::

every day since childhood.

::

For a lot of us.

::

It's way easier to find

::

someone helping their

::

neighbor than it is to find

::

someone who goes out and kills people.

::

That's so true.

::

They exist.

::

Tens of thousands of

::

friendly neighbors for every one murder.

::

I don't know what the ratio is.

::

Yeah.

::

Yeah.

::

Yeah,

::

I also feel like the church is the

::

one that told us that we

::

were sick and broken and shameful.

::

And then they're also the

::

ones who provide the cure

::

for that as well.

::

Right.

::

And so it keeps us stuck in

::

this perpetual cycle of not

::

being good enough,

::

but needing the church to be good enough,

::

needing a bishop to tell us

::

that we're worthy enough.

::

in order to accept who we are.

::

And so I feel like it's this

::

very paradoxical thing that

::

if the church wasn't

::

telling us we were bad in the first place,

::

then we wouldn't really

::

have that shame and we

::

wouldn't need the church to

::

validate us and tell us

::

that we're worthy.

::

And that goes for any church

::

because I feel like every religion,

::

at least the Christian ones,

::

are the ones that tell you

::

how sick you are and then

::

tell you that you need Jesus to heal you.

::

Yeah.

::

Today I was listening to an

::

interesting TikTok from Gabor Maté,

::

who does a lot of trauma

::

work and that kind of stuff.

::

And he was talking about how

::

human nature is often the

::

dialogue is around

::

human beings and our nature,

::

we're greedy and we're violent.

::

And that's why we have to

::

have systems that allow for

::

greed and violence and why

::

we can't just take care of

::

each other because this is human nature.

::

And he was like,

::

I don't believe in human nature.

::

I believe in human potential.

::

that when people have their

::

needs met and can be just

::

seen in love by loving

::

witness that can help them

::

meet their needs,

::

then their potential is

::

actually really high to do good.

::

But when you have these very

::

powerful social structures

::

that are always telling you

::

that what your nature is is

::

fundamentally flawed,

::

then of course it's going to

::

lead to fundamentally flawed actions.

::

But it's not at all

::

representational of a

::

person's actual nature,

::

only their potential being

::

deprived of genuine love and safety,

::

belonging, and all that.

::

Yeah.

::

I saw a TikTok yesterday that said,

::

if you want to know if

::

someone's evil or like a

::

good test of evil is like

::

whether people see evil everywhere.

::

And I don't mean that in

::

terms of like obviously

::

recognizing injustice is

::

like an important part, I think,

::

of being like a conscious good human.

::

But it is sad how the church

::

has trained people.

::

It's the church and then it's the world.

::

And as we just watched in a

::

lot of those Mormon TikToks

::

we watched on our channel last week,

::

they're like lumping the

::

world as this like one,

::

there's just one way people

::

are in the world.

::

And then there's the Mormon way,

::

which is superior.

::

But it's like,

::

But really all that's

::

happening is like those

::

people have been

::

conditioned to look at

::

things through a lens of

::

everyone else being bad and

::

then being good,

::

which is blinding them to

::

their own badness or, you know,

::

to like their own

::

dysfunctions and way that

::

they're harming others.

::

And then it's also just like

::

binding them to the beauty

::

of people and to life.

::

And obviously, right,

::

because like the

::

corporation has to be the

::

one in charge of beauty and

::

doling it out.

::

But it's sad because there are,

::

I feel like we do need like

::

more voices in the world

::

right now talking about how

::

many people are doing good things,

::

how many people are in the

::

arena and making a

::

difference rather than just

::

the focus on like everyone sucks,

::

you know?

::

Yeah.

::

Another contemporary example,

::

sorry to get political again,

::

but it's the world we live in today.

::

watching the RNC convention again,

::

vice presidential nominee J.D.

::

Vance talking about his

::

mother's drug addiction,

::

which she was a nurse who

::

was stealing drugs from her patients,

::

using that to say,

::

this is why we need to get

::

immigrants out of here

::

because they're bringing in

::

the types of drugs that was

::

hurting my mom.

::

And it's like,

::

They didn't do anything to your mom.

::

Your mom made her own decisions.

::

And then he's also praising

::

her for talking about how

::

she would literally hit with her car,

::

a kid he was hanging out

::

with because he did drugs.

::

And then how she lived her

::

life with like dozens of

::

loaded handguns all around her house.

::

And I'm like,

::

What kind of vision is this for human life,

::

for modern society,

::

that we have to shift the

::

blame for our troubles?

::

And I'm not saying that

::

she's like a perfect agitator that,

::

you know,

::

drug addiction is entirely her fault.

::

Obviously,

::

this is a systemic issue that's

::

affecting a lot of people.

::

But then to instantly...

::

Recognize that shadow and

::

project it outward to this

::

is the fault of immigrants is like,

::

you don't pass the Carl Jung's evil test.

::

I feel like that's a stretch.

::

I really feel that's that's

::

grasping to try and go from

::

drug addiction to immigrants.

::

Right.

::

And then to be like,

::

and then she lived the

::

American spirit by being

::

absolutely so paranoid

::

about the outside world

::

that she kept loaded

::

handguns around her house at all times.

::

I'm like,

::

that's not an inspiring view of a

::

country.

::

That's not like the world I

::

want to live in that I'm so

::

scared of my neighbor that

::

I have to have guns hidden

::

all around my house just in

::

case somebody could come

::

knocking on my door.

::

And he's just airing out

::

this unhealed mother wound

::

of his as if it's some inspiring story.

::

It's basically telling us

::

that he has some unhealed

::

emotional trauma due to his

::

upbringing from a drug

::

addicted mother who was also paranoid.

::

And I feel like he's telling

::

us that he hasn't worked on it at all.

::

I know,

::

very comforting to hear that from a

::

vice presidential candidate.

::

I'm completely unconscious

::

about my own trauma and how

::

it's driving my entire

::

worldview and everything

::

I'm going to do for this country.

::

Yeah,

::

the thing that I find scary in the

::

political world today, and this again,

::

it's a nonpartisan issue.

::

It's both parties, all parties,

::

all political ideologies.

::

I feel like the people who

::

want to be in power will

::

make you afraid of

::

something and then tell you

::

who's to blame for it.

::

And when they do that, it others, you know,

::

everyone into this group

::

where we can get

::

tribalistic and we can say, oh,

::

if I align with this side,

::

then this fear that they

::

created in me is going to

::

be allayed because I'm not

::

on the other side.

::

And I feel like it's this

::

very disingenuous sort of

::

worldview where we need to

::

be afraid of something in

::

order to have an agenda.

::

And it's like,

::

we've got enough problems

::

already that are actual

::

problems that we need to

::

look at through a healthy

::

lens rather than trying to

::

blame someone for it.

::

How about we just come up

::

with some ideas of how to

::

solve it or how to make it better?

::

Yeah,

::

I feel like even though holding certain,

::

especially powerful people

::

and systems accountable is important.

::

I feel like blame generally

::

as a thing in life is like

::

never the core truth of any issue.

::

Cause it's always like that

::

blame is kind of like shame

::

where it's just like

::

blocking curiosity at a certain point.

::

Cause it's like, even if someone is,

::

perpetuating a harm like

::

let's let's ask why like

::

why why do why are they

::

acting out like that like

::

what's the root is always

::

deeper than blame if that

::

makes sense like everyone's

::

just acting out their own

::

conditioning blaming other

::

people sort of absolves us

::

of having to be

::

introspective about our own

::

responsibility taking

::

responsibility for our own

::

actions and I think that

::

I have to say maybe even the

::

number one problem of

::

almost everything right now

::

is people blaming other

::

people rather than looking

::

at themselves and healing

::

their own wounds in an

::

effort to just be a better

::

human being rather than

::

just going around saying

::

it's someone else's fault, it's not mine.

::

yeah and there is you know

::

there's i hear it a lot

::

from sorry to be so

::

political i'm not saying

::

that like the democrats are

::

the ideal party or anything

::

it's just as a former

::

diehard conservative

::

activist for young

::

americans for liberty and

::

the college republicans and

::

you know going through all

::

that and becoming very

::

disillusioned with it now

::

watching the scene unfold

::

as it has it's just very uh

::

present in my mind but you

::

know i hear a lot of people

::

who are like are you

::

just acting like a victim.

::

You need to get out of the victim complex.

::

And it's not really that at all.

::

Um, it is a matter of,

::

of holistically unshaming, both,

::

unshaming what has been

::

handed me and also refusing

::

to shame others that

::

realizing that people act

::

the way that they do for reasons,

::

even bad people, or, you

::

didn't do that in a vacuum.

::

Everything that's happened

::

in their life has

::

contributed to them being

::

the way they are.

::

And me removing the shame

::

from that allows me to see

::

that natural functioning.

::

And then exactly as you said,

::

decide what I can do for

::

myself to move through it.

::

It's not being like,

::

you know, it's all my fault.

::

I asked for these bad things

::

to happen to me.

::

It's not that at all.

::

It's just being like, well,

::

if I am going to heal and

::

become like grow past this,

::

what do I need to do?

::

And in all like unshaming,

::

I think that's what it allows us to do.

::

It just allows us to take

::

honest inventory of what's

::

going on in our life and

::

create plans for dealing

::

with it rather than just

::

being in an endless cycle

::

of pointing fingers and

::

spreading the shame around.

::

Yeah, I feel like that's so true.

::

And I feel like we make so

::

little progress when all

::

we're trying to do is

::

absolve our guilty feelings

::

by blaming someone else.

::

And I really resonated with

::

what you said about people

::

who do bad things don't do

::

it in a vacuum.

::

They are part of a system.

::

They're part of a society.

::

They're part of a group.

::

They're also part of a family.

::

All of these different things contribute

::

to the wrongdoing.

::

And I feel like it's that

::

lack of introspection that

::

leads people to act out in

::

dysfunctional ways.

::

If we don't take care of the

::

things that are on our side of the street,

::

if we don't accept

::

responsibility for our actions,

::

then we end up acting out in

::

dysfunctionality because

::

we're trying to heal a wound.

::

We're trying to heal a wound

::

in a dysfunctional way

::

rather than trying to get

::

our needs met holistically

::

and authentically.

::

I also feel like it's so

::

hard because it's so

::

obvious to many of us that

::

healing needs to happen on a mass scale.

::

But I have a lot of empathy for,

::

for example,

::

older people who just didn't

::

have access to any mental

::

health resources,

::

have no faith in any healing modality,

::

maybe outside of religion in some cases.

::

A lot of people don't know

::

where to turn for healing

::

or a lot of people haven't even been

::

like convinced that healing

::

is possible for them.

::

Like they're not even turned

::

on to the idea enough.

::

Yeah.

::

It's not even like, Oh,

::

I'm carrying this wound and

::

I can either do something

::

about it or I could take it

::

out on my neighbor.

::

Yeah.

::

Like never that conscious.

::

Right.

::

Like for a lot of people,

::

it understandably,

::

they just feel like if I

::

turn towards that really

::

scary part or parts of myself, um,

::

everything will unravel and

::

I'll fall apart.

::

And like, that's not necessarily untrue.

::

I mean,

::

there is like a falling apart that

::

has to happen to like effectively heal.

::

And that is scary for people.

::

So it's a tough one.

::

Cause we,

::

I feel like you see a lot of

::

people these days being like, you know,

::

we refer to certain people

::

as toxic and we're like,

::

they refuse to do their

::

healing work or to look at themselves.

::

And it's like,

::

people genuinely like aren't

::

educated on how to be

::

effectively introspective.

::

Like studies show that we

::

all like think we're really

::

self-aware and like

::

overwhelmingly we're not.

::

it's just like a whole like new

::

language I feel like we

::

will have to learn as a

::

society and we're just like

::

starting to learn it.

::

So it makes it tough because

::

it's like you can't impose

::

any shoulds on anyone else

::

because it's like if

::

someone literally doesn't

::

even believe that healing

::

is a thing that's possible

::

for them and can enhance their life,

::

how can we blame them for that?

::

I feel like I just sort of

::

like stumbled my way into

::

healing through taking drugs,

::

which like lucky,

::

but everyone's not going to get that.

::

They never talk about the

::

people who got into drugs

::

and got their life together.

::

I know, seriously.

::

That's right.

::

We only talk about the

::

people whose lives ended or

::

were horribly damaged by drugs.

::

We don't talk about the

::

people whose lives changed

::

for the better for decades.

::

Created entire claymation

::

podcasts because of them.

::

Really important to

::

distinguish which drugs

::

we're talking about, I suppose.

::

I suppose that's true.

::

I do like what you said, though,

::

because I do think that your generation,

::

and the only reason that I

::

refer to you as a different

::

generation than mine is because I have a

::

I feel like my children's

::

generation and you guys are

::

the first ones who really

::

have healing as part of

::

your vocabulary organically.

::

I feel like even my generation,

::

my parents' generation,

::

were maybe some of the first

::

people that started to

::

break cycles of generational trauma,

::

because up until this point,

::

we didn't have really good,

::

safe mental health modalities.

::

We didn't have effective

::

drugs that could help

::

people with depression and anxiety.

::

It wasn't a conversation to be had.

::

In fact,

::

a lot of the treatments in my

::

grandparents' generation

::

were harmful and set mental health back,

::

you know, probably decades.

::

And so I get to therapy.

::

Yeah,

::

there was this huge stigma about therapy.

::

And I remember as a teenager

::

asking my parents,

::

can I please go to therapy?

::

And they didn't want me to be, you know,

::

a lot of it was societal

::

systemic and their lack of

::

understanding about what that meant.

::

And, you know, so I agree with you.

::

We can't really blame the

::

past generations for not

::

having healed or not being

::

able to be introspective

::

because they didn't have

::

the kind of tools that we have now.

::

My hope is that.

::

people in my generation and

::

generations prior don't

::

look at their lives and say,

::

I'm too old to start that

::

process right now,

::

or I don't know how to

::

start that process.

::

I talk a lot on my channel

::

about how to heal.

::

I talk a lot about how to

::

start the process,

::

how to hire a competent therapist.

::

All of those kinds of things.

::

And I feel like it's not a

::

conversation that's unique

::

to older people.

::

I feel like younger people, too,

::

have a fear of telling their deepest,

::

darkest secrets to a stranger, you know,

::

and trying to connect with

::

someone and be that

::

vulnerable in front of

::

somebody that they don't know.

::

How can you guys talk about

::

how you started the process

::

of healing for yourselves

::

and what that looked like?

::

Because there's more than one way to do it,

::

obviously.

::

I think psychedelics was the gate to that.

::

And then I feel like through psychedelics,

::

we sort of naturally gravitated towards

::

more toward like spiritual

::

teachers or I suppose just

::

mindfulness teachers that

::

advocate for stuff like

::

meditation and healthy movement,

::

healthy nutrition.

::

It all kind of came together in a nice way,

::

like finding good

::

media that you can consume

::

with with experts is so

::

helpful i love the ten

::

percent happier podcast he

::

brings on a lot of

::

spiritual and just like

::

wellness experts of all

::

disciplines

::

Yeah.

::

I feel like psychedelics are

::

stigmatized by older

::

generations a little bit

::

because of what

::

psychedelics were like when

::

they were younger.

::

And so maybe you can talk a

::

little bit about the

::

process of coming to that.

::

And I,

::

what I think it's important to know

::

is that a lot of people say

::

that the psychedelics that

::

are available to us now

::

there's a possibility to do

::

it in a healthy way where

::

it can be as effective or

::

more effective as years of therapy.

::

That was definitely true for me.

::

Yeah.

::

Oh, same.

::

And a lot of people I know

::

who have spent years in

::

therapy after one session on LSD or, uh,

::

with psilocybin were like, well,

::

that was better than ten

::

years of therapy because,

::

You need to be given like

::

a... It's like even with therapy,

::

it's just so hard to step

::

outside of your normal way of thinking.

::

You can kind of have new

::

ideas introduced to you and

::

you can tweak your lenses

::

you look through over time.

::

But I feel like with psychedelics,

::

you have the opportunity to just...

::

be in a completely different

::

headspace that is

::

potentially a bit more

::

depersonalized so you can

::

look at things with less of

::

your ego stories coming

::

into play or your like

::

wounds or your trauma or

::

you can like recognize how

::

big your wounds and trauma

::

are and how they're like

::

coming into play it's just

::

it's it's not like it

::

doesn't have to be either

::

or like psychedelics or

::

therapy I think they're

::

both fantastic tools and

::

can be used in tandem but

::

it

::

can be so much more

::

effective than therapy

::

because when else do we

::

really get the opportunity

::

to almost have like a

::

period of respite from like

::

inhabiting our own minds,

::

even though you are still

::

in your own mind.

::

Yeah.

::

And I think there are

::

systems informed therapies

::

more and more so all the time,

::

which is great.

::

But I feel like sometimes

::

the therapy process can

::

feel so individual.

::

and it's like my trauma my

::

issues the things i'm doing

::

and how i'm functioning in

::

this world without any

::

insight into is the world

::

i'm in helping me at all is

::

it creating any of my issues how are

::

You know,

::

I didn't just fall out of the

::

coconut tree.

::

I exist in the context of

::

everything that's come before.

::

And I think psychedelics

::

were really big in that, realizing like,

::

oh,

::

I'm not just this island existing in a

::

vacuum,

::

that I am like a sequence of DNA

::

that's existed for millions

::

and millions and millions

::

of years and traces back to

::

the original protozoa that

::

climbed out of the sludge, you know?

::

And each experience of each

::

being in that genetic chain

::

has implications for the way

::

that i am the society that

::

i've grown up in that's

::

given me my language that's

::

given me my constructs for

::

the world informs what's

::

happening in my body and in

::

my brain in the way that

::

i'm acting um you know it

::

goes on and on the end to

::

the things that i'm eating

::

the things that i'm the way

::

that i'm moving in the

::

world the jobs that i am working you know

::

All of these things,

::

I'm connected to everything.

::

So I can't change everything in the world.

::

I can't go back and edit my DNA.

::

I can't change the systems

::

of Western empire for the

::

last thousands of years or whatever.

::

But understanding all of

::

that has given me more

::

grace for myself and more

::

appreciation for the things

::

that this genetic chain has

::

been through and honoring

::

the incarnation that I

::

currently find myself in.

::

Not that I believe in

::

reincarnation in maybe the

::

normal colloquial sense, but.

::

Yeah.

::

So it sounds like you're

::

saying that it helped you

::

have a better perspective.

::

And for you, Samantha,

::

saying that it helps you to

::

have thoughts without

::

judging them or analyzing

::

them from your current state of mind.

::

And the way that I had it described to me,

::

taking psychedelics in a

::

healthy way is that kind of

::

you've got if you've got

::

this ski mountain and

::

you've been kind of skiing

::

down the slopes the same

::

way and you're carving

::

these paths and you've got

::

moguls and then taking

::

psychedelics is like having it snow.

::

And being able to find a

::

different path down the mountain.

::

So like you're still you,

::

but you just think about

::

things in a different way.

::

And it gives you the ability

::

to get out of those ruts

::

that you've kind of been in.

::

Yeah.

::

And also teaches you the

::

importance of being able to surrender.

::

Like we kind of move through

::

life convinced that we can

::

sort of control everything.

::

And especially in Mormonism,

::

you're trying to almost

::

like control your

::

what's going to happen to you for

::

eternity and every single

::

decision you ever make it,

::

there is just like that

::

obsessive focus on control

::

and obviously like

::

controlling your body and

::

your appetites and your

::

thoughts and your beliefs and all that.

::

Other people's behaviors.

::

Yeah.

::

And with psychedelics,

::

it's like a chance to just

::

like get outside of all of

::

your own stuff and,

::

and just realize that,

::

how many perspectives can

::

exist and like how

::

connected we all are to everybody else.

::

And I feel like coming out of Mormonism,

::

a lot of people

::

understandably are like

::

quite risk averse or still have that like,

::

know,

::

they want to be able to control

::

everything really tightly to feel safe,

::

which I totally get.

::

And like psychedelics can

::

maybe feel scary because

::

they're not necessarily like predictable.

::

I mean,

::

there are things you can obviously...

::

like learn about with them

::

but but they are like an

::

experience in learning to

::

surrender a lot of the time

::

which I think is their

::

utility but then it's like

::

forcing you to be willing

::

to put aside the masks

::

you've worn for safety your

::

whole life or like the rules you've

::

arbitrary rules potentially

::

that you've like upheld to

::

try and feel safe and like

::

all those sort of like

::

false ways that you've

::

tried to keep yourself safe

::

can kind of fall away and I

::

think like just having an

::

experience where you can

::

see that which is like very

::

hard to do I feel like outside of

::

having a substance literally

::

alter your perspective.

::

Neurochemistry, yeah.

::

Yeah, that can be so valuable.

::

I love the ski route

::

metaphor because you

::

literally are creating new

::

neural pathways in a way that just,

::

like you said,

::

seems very difficult to do

::

outside of that.

::

It's like literally a

::

chemical intervention to

::

create better neural pathways.

::

And, you know, there's other ways to,

::

you know, rewire things like EMDR,

::

where you're going back to

::

the initial traumas.

::

And I think psychedelics is

::

a version of that where you realize like,

::

oh,

::

I've adopted these like pillars of my

::

identity based on little

::

interactions that I had as

::

a kid that maybe didn't

::

even like maybe the person

::

who said a comment to me

::

they didn't even mean it in

::

the way that I took it.

::

They never would have said like,

::

you need to be this way.

::

But because of the way they

::

said and the way that I was

::

just a kid interpreting that was like, oh,

::

I'm bad.

::

Yeah, exactly.

::

I'm bad at this.

::

Therefore, I won't do bad at that.

::

Oh,

::

I got positive reinforcement for this

::

thing.

::

So I'm going to keep doing this.

::

And then it becomes these

::

like pillars of our

::

identity and character that

::

we end up like defending to our own death

::

And to our own detriment,

::

when they didn't need to be there at all.

::

And it's really,

::

really hard to step out of it.

::

It's almost impossible to see it because,

::

you know,

::

your mind is like a flashlight

::

and you can point and see it,

::

but you can like never

::

point it back at yourself

::

and see the flashlight

::

itself through the light of

::

the flashlight.

::

Unless you have some kind of

::

method like psychedelics or EMDR.

::

I keep adding an extra M in there, but...

::

Yeah, I'm definitely a fan.

::

Obviously,

::

exercise caution and do your homework.

::

And if possible,

::

do it in a clinical setting

::

where someone who's trained

::

in it can be there to assist.

::

But I mean, like, you know,

::

we talked about the older

::

generation and maybe some

::

of the stigma that came out

::

about psychedelics back in the day.

::

I've been reflecting on that because,

::

you know,

::

it was weird politics and all

::

that and shame.

::

I had a conversation with my

::

partner's dad recently,

::

and he mentioned that his

::

generation was the first

::

that didn't get drafted.

::

And I guess it really hit me

::

how recent that was,

::

that people were like, okay,

::

you're twenty years old,

::

you gotta go across the

::

world and kill people on

::

the other side of the world

::

for the interests of these

::

megacorporations.

::

And then you've got to come

::

home with trauma,

::

having seen your friends killed,

::

having killed people,

::

having committed atrocities.

::

And you're just going to be

::

left alone to deal with that,

::

which is why we see so many

::

veterans struggling with homelessness,

::

struggling with mental health issues.

::

And psychedelics were definitely

::

a huge part of uh the public

::

opposition to vietnam which

::

was the first public

::

opposition of a war in the

::

united states history on

::

such a massive scale women

::

have been protesting wars

::

all along but um but on the

::

scale that the vietnam war

::

was protested was the first

::

time and largely due

::

to psychedelics and people realizing like,

::

oh, I'm not an American,

::

I'm a human being.

::

Like first and foremost,

::

the idea of America is

::

something that's been given

::

me and what I should do

::

about my Americanness is a

::

whole different conversation

::

even.

::

But at my core,

::

I'm a human being

::

interacting in a natural

::

world from whence I came

::

with other human beings who

::

are just as apart and just

::

as belonging to this world

::

and network of beings as I am.

::

And it doesn't make sense

::

for me to go across the

::

world to commit violence

::

against those people.

::

we do have to be very

::

appreciative of how far

::

we've come in such a short time.

::

The role that psychedelics have played,

::

I go back and forth on how

::

appropriate the backlash

::

has been

::

a strong faction trying to

::

squash out seeing

::

psychedelics as a healing

::

modality and being like oh

::

we can't have this this is

::

not good for our

::

investments and our

::

interests and our ideology

::

but also realizing that

::

there was um maybe too much

::

of a libertine approach i

::

don't i don't know um but

::

now it was i mean they were

::

peddling misinformation

::

about psychedelics and

::

Yeah,

::

and safety was definitely not a

::

primary concern.

::

But now I think we're very

::

fortunate to be in an age

::

where there's a lot more

::

scientific data to back up the usage,

::

that there's more

::

opportunities for clinical settings,

::

for people to receive

::

psychedelic treatment.

::

I'm really,

::

really optimistic about the

::

role that psychedelics will

::

continue playing in

::

personal and collective healing.

::

Did we start talking about grief?

::

We started talking about

::

shame and grief and anger

::

and all of those things, yeah.

::

Well, I'd say with psychedelics, you know,

::

for the uninitiated,

::

they kind of have this idea of like, oh,

::

it's this escapist thing

::

where you go and you ha ha

::

ha at all the pink

::

elephants dancing around in the room.

::

And, you know,

::

there is like a funness to them,

::

like there's something

::

delightful and joyful of like,

::

that new fallen snow where

::

you're seeing the world

::

kind of like as a child

::

would see it with fresh

::

eyes where it's brand new

::

i've come out of trips like

::

having to relearn who i am

::

what it means like what

::

having a body as being a

::

human being an amap person

::

having a name having

::

roommates and being like

::

all of it being like brand

::

new for the first time and it is like

::

That is just a perspective

::

that you don't get every

::

day and it does radically

::

shift the way that I saw the world,

::

the way that I interact with the world.

::

But on the other side,

::

psychedelics helped me

::

identify these deeply,

::

deeply embedded wounds.

::

They felt like shrapnel

::

pieces that were just

::

buried in me since childhood,

::

since teenagehood,

::

since young adulthood that

::

I didn't even know were like festering.

::

And psychedelics helped me

::

identify and remove those things

::

And with that came a lot of

::

grief and a lot of tears,

::

a lot of screaming and

::

moaning and crying and

::

weeping because I was

::

addressing something that I

::

had never even known existed in me.

::

Stuff from my own life, cultural grief,

::

mourning grief.

::

Again, realizing like, oh,

::

I'm not just a person

::

existing in a vacuum.

::

I am an animal living in an

::

environment that sustains me.

::

And that environment is

::

being destroyed at rates

::

never before seen in the

::

history of humankind.

::

So there is a deep mourning

::

that I have to experience.

::

as part of this waking up process.

::

And so it isn't all just

::

love and light and ha, ha, ha.

::

It opened the valve for me to really,

::

really grieve and to

::

integrate grieving as a regular part

::

of my human existence.

::

Because I think a lot of our

::

culture is set up to

::

disconnect us from our grief,

::

to numb us to our pain,

::

to help us avoid pain,

::

to avoid our mortality,

::

to avoid the sense of loss,

::

to give us this flimsy

::

sense of control over the world,

::

when in fact we have to

::

become more acquainted with

::

grief if we want to be

::

mature adults in this world

::

who are maturely addressing

::

the issues that are causing grief.

::

Thank you so much.

::

I think we could just cut it off there.

::

Make that a short.

::

Yes, absolutely.

::

I think that we do have a

::

failure to recognize the role of grief.

::

in our lives and how

::

necessary it is for us to

::

grieve authentically to

::

allow ourselves to scream

::

and cry and to allow

::

ourselves to feel all of

::

the pain that comes with

::

healing these wounds

::

because all of the wounds

::

that we have are

::

accompanied by grief in

::

some form it's either a

::

loss of time or a loss of

::

childhood or a loss of

::

actual relationships or

::

things like that and i think

::

we fail to recognize what an

::

important role grief plays

::

in our everyday

::

interactions and our desire

::

to make life easy and

::

smooth and to numb from

::

things prevents us from

::

actually grieving and even

::

if even if we get right

::

down to it our funeral ceremonies

::

postpone grieving because we

::

focus so much on the

::

afterlife and seeing that person again.

::

We fail to ask ourselves the question,

::

what if we don't ever see

::

that person again?

::

How would we grieve

::

differently if that were the case?

::

And I think it's such an

::

important thing to address.

::

So I'm really grateful that

::

you brought that into this

::

conversation because we

::

don't talk about grief

::

enough and I think it's

::

just so crucial to address it.

::

Oh, for sure.

::

And I think a huge part of

::

the revolution going on,

::

which is just a total

::

reassessment of our

::

individual and collective

::

goals and purpose and functioning,

::

is developing networks and

::

relationships of people who

::

are acquainted with grief,

::

who can witness us in grief

::

and share the grief together.

::

Even grieving itself,

::

we inherit so much shame about that.

::

You should just be tough and

::

swallow it and, you know, be a man.

::

Don't cry.

::

Don't show them, you know,

::

what you're feeling, you know, be tough.

::

All of that is so toxic.

::

And so many of us aren't

::

even allowed to express that.

::

let alone, you know,

::

express that to ourselves,

::

let alone to another person.

::

And so I think a huge part

::

is going to be learning to

::

grieve together.

::

And that's something I've been able to,

::

both of us have been able

::

to experience in different

::

ways since leaving the church,

::

which was such a

::

superficial sense of community and grief,

::

the surface level.

::

Oh, we all belong to the same club.

::

We wear the same uniform.

::

Therefore we're,

::

We're all together and maybe

::

we can cry a little bit on

::

Fast and Testimony meeting.

::

Not about our personal

::

issues because we can only

::

speak the script and say

::

the things you know are true.

::

But we get little,

::

little releases of that grief valve.

::

But actually stepping into a

::

conscious space where we're

::

holding our grief together

::

and witnessing each other

::

in our grief and expressing grief fully.

::

is so healing.

::

It's hard to grieve alone.

::

It's not just easier, but empowering.

::

I struggle to find the words

::

to say what it is.

::

It's almost like there is a

::

dimension of human

::

existence that we access,

::

almost like a psychic level

::

of power that we access in sharing grief

::

were totally cut off of in

::

our normal you know white

::

bread american life and so

::

learning how to grieve

::

together to intentionally

::

create spaces where we can

::

hold our grief and then act

::

from that empowered grief

::

and embodied grief uh is

::

going to be genuinely revolutionary

::

Yeah, I agree so much with that.

::

And that's one of the things

::

I'm trying to do with this

::

community on YouTube is to

::

create a place where we can

::

share our struggles together,

::

where we can grieve together,

::

where we can support each

::

other in these revolutions

::

that are exciting but also

::

painful and making these

::

changes that are scary and

::

And, you know,

::

confronting the things that

::

we feel that are scary and,

::

confronting the

::

dysfunctional relationships

::

that we have and having the

::

courage to step into a

::

space of being alone rather

::

than accepting bad

::

treatment from other people,

::

all of these things.

::

We need to do them together.

::

And thank you so much for

::

saying that because we don't,

::

I think sometimes we

::

believe that our mental

::

health is only our

::

responsibility and that we

::

should fix all of our

::

issues before we talk to

::

other people or interact in spaces.

::

But you're so spot on when

::

you say that we need to do

::

it collectively.

::

I agree with that so much.

::

Samantha,

::

I'm going to give you the last word.

::

Oh God, what am I going to use it on?

::

Give me a word.

::

Please plug all the things

::

that you guys are doing and

::

let us know what's

::

happening on your channel right now.

::

Yeah.

::

So, I mean,

::

if you're interested in psychedelics,

::

we just tried gas station

::

mushrooms and that's one of

::

our new videos on our channel.

::

You can find us everywhere

::

at Zelf on the Shelf.

::

We're also on Patreon.

::

We're about to go read an

::

episode of Tennis Shoes

::

Among the Nephites.

::

That's something we do on our Patreon.

::

Anything else we need to

::

mention in terms of orders of business?

::

I think that's it.

::

We've got our personal

::

Instagrams you can follow us on.

::

I had to delete all my

::

socials yesterday just to

::

get out of the fray for a minute,

::

but will be back eventually, I'm sure,

::

like a dog to its vomit.

::

I feel that too.

::

Well,

::

I feel like we never have enough time

::

to discuss all the things,

::

so we will have to get together again.

::

Yeah.

::

Yes, please.

::

We love talking to you

::

anytime you want to come.

::

Oh, I will.

::

Yeah.

::

Yeah.

::

Like the level at which you

::

talk about healing is like

::

so soothing to my soul personally.

::

Thanks.

::

Well, thanks so much for being here,

::

you guys.

::

This is going to be wonderful.

::

Can't wait to talk to you again.

::

Thank you.

::

I love what you're doing

::

with this channel.

::

It's exciting.

::

Yeah.

::

Love to everyone watching.

::

Happy healing.

::

Thanks for being here, everyone.

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