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57. Unique Differences of ADHD and Autism in Women with Dr. Jacinta Thomson
Episode 5727th February 2024 • ADHD Mums • Jane McFadden
00:00:00 00:56:01

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On this episode of The ADHD Mums Podcast, Jane welcomes Dr. Jacinta Thomson, a clinical psychologist with expertise in ADHD and autism, for a discussion on the intersection of these neurodivergences. Jacinta introduces the complexity of distinguishing between ADHD and autism, emphasising the unique challenges faced by individuals who may exhibit traits of both conditions. Jane and Jacinta delve into the outdated stereotypes associated with autism and how these perceptions can hinder accurate recognition.

Jacinta sheds light on the DSM criteria for autism, highlighting differences in relating to others, communication, and interacting with the environment, and advocates for a neuroaffirming approach, emphasising identity-first language to acknowledge that neurodivergent conditions are intrinsic parts of an individual's identity. The conversation touches on how neurodivergent brains process information, sensory sensitivities, and the need for routine.

 

The discussion takes a personal turn as Jane shares her experience with a friend's autism diagnosis and the nuances of social interactions. Jacinta explains the subtle ways ADHD and autism traits may manifest in social settings, exploring the challenges of non-verbal communication, understanding implied meanings, and navigating sensory overload. The conversation highlights the importance of recognising the individualised nature of these neurodivergences and tailoring support accordingly, fostering a deeper understanding of the complexities involved.

If you'd like to know more about Dr Jacinta Thomson check her out here: www.timetountangle.com.au/

Disclaimer from Dr Jacinta Thomson

It is crucial to note that the information shared in the following episode is for general educational and informational purposes only. The content presented here is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any condition, and may not fully capture the nuances of your experience. This conversation does not constitute medical or psychiatric advice and is not a therapeutic session. It should not be relied upon as a substitute for personalised guidance from your treating health practitioner.

If you or someone you know is seeking assistance or clarification regarding ADHD or Autism, we strongly encourage you to consult with a qualified healthcare professional who can provide tailored advice based on a thorough assessment of your specific circumstances.

Transcripts

Speaker:

Hello and welcome to the

next episode of ADHD Mums.

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I have Jacinta Thompson here, one of

our most popular interviewees ever.

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She has the episode, How to Get a

Diagnosis Part 1 and 2, which is still

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one of our most downloaded episodes.

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ever.

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Jacinta looks very uncomfortable

as I talk about how great she is.

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I will give you a quick

overview about Jacinta.

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Jacinta is a clinical psychologist

and she has extensive experience

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in public and private health care.

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She's taught at universities, she's

presented her research internationally,

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and she's also done some public speaking.

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Jacinta has two young children

and she is particularly passionate

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about helping parents cope in such

a challenging perinatal period.

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Jacinta has done a couple of episodes

with me, and she's also in her own

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practice up here on the Sunshine Coast

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I have had amazing feedback coming in

to me about Jacinta and her therapy,

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so much so I thought about booking

in myself, but I thought let's not.

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Burn Jacinta out with

all of Jane's energies.

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So welcome to you Jacinta.

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Thanks Jane.

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It's good to be back.

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I've had a lot of fun, the conversations

that we've had previously and I thought

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why not cram another one into December?

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It's not like it's already

sort of sensory overload month.

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It's another one on top.

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Well, I've actually been cancelling

interviewees all over the place

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and I cleared my schedule as soon

as you reached out and said you'd

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be willing to do another one.

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So I've been very excited about this

because I think it's such a great topic.

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Do you want to give us an overview?

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Because I don't want, it

was your idea Jacinta, and I

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just think it's so relevant.

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one of the biggest commonly, you know,

co occurring diagnosis is autism.

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So I thought it was really important

just to talk a bit more about what

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it looks like when someone might have

both ADHD and autistic characteristics.

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What sort of patterns we see

professionally, clinically, in terms

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of how one might sort of show up.

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And maybe even masking or camouflaging the

other and then that sort of swaps around

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later in life or in different life stages.

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I think maybe up front I'll just clarify

in my neuro affirming practice, I use

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the term autistic, which is an identity

first explanation rather than saying

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someone like a person with autism as if

it's sort of like a bag or an outfit that

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you can sort of pick up and put down.

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It's very central and fundamental to

someone's identity just as ADHD is.

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And I always try to say autism and

I save the term autistic spectrum

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disorders or ASD only in clinical

reference to a diagnosis, say in a

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diagnostic report, try to drop the D

because I don't think it's a disorder.

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I think it's a difference and it

can absolutely be something that

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is a strength if sort of recognized

and supported appropriately.

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And just another thing on semantics today,

if I say all DHD, which is a U DHD, that's

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a common reference to, for someone who's

been diagnosed with both ADHD and autism.

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It's just a bit of a shortcut.

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Yeah, perfect.

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This is so interesting already.

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Would you mind, because I, I think

there's a lot of people in this

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podcast that would never want to

offend anybody or say the wrong thing.

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And also we've got

terrible working memories.

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So I'm always trying to be careful in

my podcast that I'm not offensive to

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anybody, but I also cannot remember

whether it's person with autism or

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autistic because I actually listened to

you and thought, I actually thought that

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I read that you should say, person with

autism because they're a person first.

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So now I'm a bit confused,

would you mind discussing why?

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Because I, I think that

will make sense to me.

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Yeah.

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So previously when it comes to

acknowledging a mental health diagnosis,

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something like depression or even

schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, we

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Consider those mental health conditions

or diagnoses something that doesn't

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necessarily need to be lifelong.

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So in other ways, we could talk

about them as sort of episodic

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difficulties or symptoms.

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So in that sense, we, we, we're taught

to use that person first language.

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So person with depression or.

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An adult who's experiencing anxiety,

for example, when it comes to

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neurodevelopmental conditions, so we're

talking about autism and ADHD specifically

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in this podcast today, they are exactly

that, they're sort of neurodevelopmental,

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they're differences in the way the brain

is structured and the way that the brain

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functions that is there from birth.

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And it's there for someone's entire life.

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So it's not like depressive vulnerability.

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Someone goes in and out

of depressive episodes.

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It's something that is

always a part of that person.

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And quite central, we are talking about

the way that the brain is organized.

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And the brain is the lens through which

we perceive and interact with the world

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every single moment of every single day.

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So it's.

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It's very fundamental and I

think it's part of this movement

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of trying to destigmatize

having ADHD or being autistic.

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It's about saying, yes, this is

very much how I am in this world,

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how I experience this world.

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And it's not a problem.

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It's actually pretty cool

that I have this difference.

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So just try to own it a bit more.

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I can't sort of centralize

to our identity.

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Oh, perfect.

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That actually makes total sense to me.

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Okay.

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So this is this, I'm loving this already.

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Sorry.

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I thought I might give a bit of a

personal spin on this because I'll

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struggle not to because of my ADHD.

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So I'm just going to go there, right?

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So when I took my daughter up to get

diagnosed with ADHD to this beautiful

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equine farm here on the Sunshine Coast,

they kind of played with animals and

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did the diagnosis all in the one play.

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It was beautiful.

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Anyway, basically the clinical

psychologist there who I love, but

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won't, I'm not naming her just because.

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For her own privacy, not actually

love her and I think she's brilliant.

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She was saying that she thought

that I had some autistic traits.

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And that she thought that I could, or

should, could, should, go up and see her.

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And I was a little bit confused

because I went into high

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research mode, as we all do.

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And I tried to find the differences

between Autistic and ADHD is.

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I was just wondering, in regards to high

masking mums, it can be often extremely

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difficult to even find the difference,

to even discover that you are, have

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ADHD, let alone autism or be autistic.

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What would be those differences?

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that you would see?

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Because I found no

information on that anywhere.

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Yeah, it's a bit of a, it's a bit of mind

boggling really because if we just came

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over to the DSM, which is the Diagnostic

and Statistical Manual that clinical

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psychologists and most mental health

professionals will look at the criteria

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there and sort of match up how does this

person presenting in front of me tick

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off these boxes and are there enough

sort of ticks in the boxes to reach the

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threshold that the powers that be have

sort of determined that that's clinically

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significant and need a warranty of.

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of that diagnosis.

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So if you look at like autism and then

you look at ADHD, they're actually

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completely different profiles.

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There is no overlapping or commonalities

between those behaviors or those

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characteristics on each side, which is.

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It's just so far removed from what, how

we actually sort of present in real life.

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There is significant amount of parallels

and a lot of behaviours that could sit

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in sort of, you know, be driven by an

ADHD sort of need or by an autistic

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need, but on the outside, those

behaviours might look exactly the same.

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So go figure, hey?

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That is not what I have read.

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And not what is widely described.

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So I'm kind of mind blown already because

a lot of people say, Oh, I think there's

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the stats are, and look, you, you'll know

better than I am, but it's like one in

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25 have ADHD, one in 36 are autistic.

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And then there's that blend of overlap and

it can look similar and it's hard to know

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which is which, but you're actually kind

of changing that already, which is kind of

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mind blowing to me because I was always in

this impression of, how do you even know?

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If you have ADHD or if you're autistic,

and then I was trying to figure out how

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many people on my podcast are possibly

autistic women that have no idea.

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Yeah, I, I, so what I'm, I guess

what I'm saying is if you're a pure,

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hardcore DSM enthusiast, then then

there is no sort of similarities there.

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In inverted commas here, it's

easy that they're that distinct

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that they can be pulled apart

without any sort of major effort.

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But in reality, you're right.

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I think for so many people and mums as

well, ADHD mums, they probably have had

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these little inklings, little questions

about, okay, I've got a sort of range

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of Neurodivergent characteristics

or traits or behaviors or struggles.

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It seems like maybe a bulk of them

can be explained by ADHD, but maybe

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there's a few sort of extra things

or sort of overflow as my own

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psychiatrist sort of calls them that

this is sort of the pattern of what I.

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Typically, you see is, is moms that

come in and they sort of have the ADHD

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evaluated and then it might be years

or months or years later, once the ADHD

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symptoms have stabilized, that those

sort of inklings and those questions and

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queries start to get a little bit louder

because they, they sort of want to know

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what else could be, what could be the sort

of explanation for these other differences

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that they're noticing more and more.

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And you mentioned there, Jane, that the

overlap in sort of the prevalence there.

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So the statistics that you shared there.

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The range varies so widely in the

research, but roughly 1 in 25 adults

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are ADHD, so about 4%, as you said,

and 1 in 36 are autistic, but about

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60 percent of those individuals will

have both characteristics from autism.

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of both ADHD and autism.

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So what that really means is that

we're actually more likely to have

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both than we are to be sort of a

pure ADHD or, or a purely autistic.

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So in reality, there's going

to be a lot of moms on here who

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have ADHD, but they also have.

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clinically significant

autistic characteristics.

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Now that doesn't necessarily

make you autistic.

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Uh, as I said, there's

just so much overlap.

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And it doesn't necessarily

make it a problem.

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It's not something you need to,

you know, pick up the phone and

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quickly make a doctor's appointment.

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Shit, I think I could have missed

36 years of being autistic.

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It's, it's just something I I think

as we're doing here, it's just

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building that curiosity around

what, what might this mean for you?

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What can it look like?

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What sort of severity, do those sort

of differences like impact your life

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or your functioning and what sorts

of supports might you need to assist

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with that sort of overflow of stuff

around the traditional ADHD struggles?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And the DMs that I get, which

are extensive, there is a huge

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amount of them that come in.

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Most of the women list ASD

and ADHD in their children.

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So that would reflect.

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possibly what we're talking about.

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So let's break through what does

autistic traits look like in, in mums.

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I mean, I suppose there's

always the Rayman idea, but

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how is it different from that?

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So again, that really comes from our

outdated stereotyped images of autism,

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and that's really what the research

that went into the criteria in the DSM.

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It comes from the sort of white,

white boys with those very overt or

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like externalized behaviors, sort

of the rocking in the corner, the

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obsessive playing with trains or

rotating wheels on their trucks for

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sort of hours and hours a day at the

exclusion of all other activities.

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So I guess you probably see that a lot

of us would have that image in our head.

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I think that's still like a stigma that

actually is, is associated with a lot

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of fear and worry for parents as well.

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Once the autism.

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A question or word gets presented,

there's a lot of those images that come

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to mind that I think a lot of parents,

especially of our generation and older,

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they obviously, there's just so much

uncertainty there about the extent of

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what disability might be attached to

that, that label or that diagnosis.

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But like with ADHD, we've come so far in

recognizing that ADHD is not just, can you

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do struggle to sit still in your chair?

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It's not just you're jumping

out of your seat to answer

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every question in the classroom.

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It's not just that you

turning up late everywhere.

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And again, we, we understand that

people have developed, people

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develop really clever, sophisticated

and effective coping mechanisms.

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All those compensatory strategies,

like I think we've talked about before.

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Spending hours and hours just hyper

focusing on the diary and the schedule

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and making sure everything in the week

for the family lines up so perfectly.

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So on a bit of paper, you're

not going to tick the box.

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Are you late everywhere?

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As the DSM would sort of suggest about an

ADHD or with inattentive problems because

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you've got those sort of systems in place.

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So what we're trying to do in a really

neuroaffirming assessment is to get

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underneath What those behaviors sort

of look like, and then figure out

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what sorts of strategies do people

have in place that essentially mask

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or camouflage or compensate for those

ADHD and or autistic differences.

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So in the DSM, tell me if this is like.

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It's just a bit of an info dump, Jane.

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But the, so the DCI listen

to, I'm like dying inside.

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I'm so excited.

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So just like, I'm like so pumped.

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So just go for it, I reckon.

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Okay.

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All right.

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Just reign me in if you need to.

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Oh, mate, I will, but I doubt I will.

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Sorry.

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You go.

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Oh, someone needs to, need to

bring us a mimosa or something.

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It's been here a while.

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So in the DSM, the autism is

characterized basically by different

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ways of relating to others.

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So in terms of non verbal and verbal

interactions, communication, differences

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in the way autistic people might

initiate and maintain relationships,

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and also different ways of Interacting

with the environment around us.

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So this might be processing sensory

information in a really overly

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sensitive way or underly sensitive way.

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Navigating change and sort of

disruptions to routine and plans.

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A really, really deep enjoyment of special

interests, which Again, there's quite a

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bit of an overlap there as we can imagine

with ADHD sort of hyper fixation and also

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repetitive behaviors or use of objects

that basically give an autistic brain a

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sense of sameness and repetition and sort

of routine predictability that sort of

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gives their central nervous system a sense

of safety in such an overstimulating,

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overloading world around them.

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And I should note as well that that's

not a verbatim definition from the

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DSM, because the DSM uses a lot of

medicalized pathologizing language, like

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deficits of social emotional reciprocity.

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It's like, well, what, what

does that actually mean?

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And I'm quite open with the fact that

I've been diagnosed with ADHD and autism.

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And I, I wouldn't say that I have

a complete deficit or inability to

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communicate with people, but I definitely

go about it in a, in a different way.

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And those differences

can be really subtle.

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Whether that's because I'm using my

own social camouflaging and masking

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strategies, or they can be a bit more

obvious, especially when I'm relaxed

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in informal space with fellow Neurokin.

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So it's not just your DSM,

here's the rocking, the non

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verbal, the boy with the trains.

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There's such a beautiful

diversity within the autistic

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community, as there is with ADHD.

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So it's, you know, up to people like me,

and I guess other health professionals,

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to really try and recognize when

those, those sort of overflow of ADHD

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traits could be explained by autism,

and really harness that, that sort of

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understanding in a way that just It's

so validating, it makes so much more

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sense, and again, it's about targeting

those supports or treatment sort of

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strategies in a more individualised way.

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Ah, that's so interesting.

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I had a coffee date with one of my

good friends, you should have joined us

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Jacinta, you would have loved it actually.

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And she's just been diagnosed autistic.

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And we were at the park with

our kids for three hours because

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we're both on school holidays.

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So we were there for three hours.

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Our kids were actually

asking us to leave, right?

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But we were just going for it

on personal development and

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psychology and who we are as people.

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It was a.

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Great chat.

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I mean, look, when you find the

right mums that, that you really

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get you, and it's such a safe

space, it's just so therapeutic.

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I find there's nothing more therapeutic

than talking to another mum who really

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gets it, even if they're neurotypical,

someone who just really gets it.

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So, She was saying to me that, because

it was quite mind blowing for her to

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be diagnosed autistic, and she was only

diagnosed because her daughter was,

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and the clinical psych, the same one

I referred to on the farm, eyeballed

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her and said, I think you need to

come and see me as well, and she went.

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And she was saying about how,

I mean, socially, I find her

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to be amazing, possibly because

I'm diverse myself, right?

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So I don't notice or I don't really

know, but she said to me that

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she has always been quite good

socially, but she prefers one to one

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conversations in depth than a group.

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And she was wondering whether

Because she's very intuitive.

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She was actually saying whether

she wonders whether she feels the

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room, she feels the emotion in the

other person because she doesn't

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think she can't read the faces.

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It's, she gets it, but she doesn't,

she thinks it might be almost

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kinesthetic, not actually the face.

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Yeah.

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Or possibly she's just getting all

of the information in our brains

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are receiving billions of bits of

sensory information every second.

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And then a neurotypical brain.

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You know, sort of a metaphor is maybe

they have a funnel in a way that their

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executive sort of thinking part of

their brain can actually pick and choose

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which parts of that environment or that

social interaction is really important.

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So we're going to hold on to, you

know, you're going to funnel out

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the rest of it, filter out the rest

of the noise essentially, and just

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focus on the bits that are important,

but neurodivergent brains will,

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there's no funnel, there's no filter.

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They're really.

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Taking it all in, which obviously can

be incredibly like overwhelming and

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exhausting, especially if you're somewhere

where there is lots of background

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noise or music or it's really hot or

you haven't eaten in a few hours and

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your stomach's rumbling really badly.

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So it can feel really flooding.

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But I definitely, I definitely

relate to that preference, I

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think, for conversing one on one.

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I think once you start to add people

to a group conversation, those

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dynamics get a lot more complicated.

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And especially if you've got ADHD and

you've got that sort of working memory

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challenges that it can be so hard to

follow multiple sort of trains of thought

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and conversation and know when the

right like micro moment is to sort of

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jump in and participate and how much is

too much and are people interested in.

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It's just so So much information

to be sort of monitoring and

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like analyzing at any one time.

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It can make that quite taxing or

draining and I think stressful too.

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So what would be some little known

characteristics that we might see

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mums that you can't get on Google?

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Because I googled all of this

before and I was like, this is all

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stuff you can find online, right?

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But it's the new, the little things

that I really want to discuss.

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What would be some of the little things

that you can't find on Google that

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you would be looking for in a session?

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Maybe what I can.

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Give or walk you through an example of

like a very generic sort of situation.

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If a mom is in a social situation,

like you're just describing before

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Jane, and we can think about how

the nuances of say ADHD and the

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idiosyncrasies of autism might, they

might be this sort of delicate, but

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complicated little interplay of how.

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:

They sort of mask or

compensate for each other.

350

:

So again, on paper or behaviorally, it

might not be that obvious, but it's, yeah,

351

:

it's really interesting to sort of think

about what could actually be going on

352

:

behind the scenes and how each of those

sort of conditions might be driving that.

353

:

So if we think about like an untreated

ADHD mom, who's also got autistic.

354

:

traits or a diagnosis of autism.

355

:

If she is in a social setting,

she might appear like outwardly

356

:

engaged and confident making eye

contact and participating in that

357

:

sort of back and forth conversation

that we all think perceive as

358

:

sort of normal, neuro normative.

359

:

But on closer inspection, she might

really struggle with the subtleties

360

:

of non verbal communication, such as

difficulty understanding implied meanings.

361

:

or sarcasm.

362

:

Actually on that note, my husband,

poor guy, gets so frustrated that

363

:

I just don't understand sarcasm.

364

:

I don't really get his jokes.

365

:

I mean, they are dad jokes, but

they're probably not that bad.

366

:

And I set up our Christmas tree the

other day and it's It's like a hundred

367

:

dollar one I got off Amazon and

it's just all these like LED lights.

368

:

It's basically just a rave in my lounge

room and the sensory syncing part of my

369

:

brain is like and then he said you're

gonna you're gonna give the kids epaulets.

370

:

C for Christmas.

371

:

And I immediately stopped

and I was horrified.

372

:

I looked at him.

373

:

I was like, that is not funny.

374

:

Like, why would you even joke about that?

375

:

And then about three days later,

it finally dawned on me, he's

376

:

like, Oh, cause photosensitivity

could possibly do seizures.

377

:

And I was laughing.

378

:

He's like, what are you laughing about?

379

:

And I was like, I just got your joke.

380

:

He's like, yeah, okay.

381

:

Three days later, you know, that's

pretty good for you actually.

382

:

I'll take it.

383

:

But in, so in a social situation

though, potentially if other people

384

:

are laughing that all the HD mom.

385

:

They'll pick up on other people

laughing and they'll join in too,

386

:

but they might not have actually

sort of understood the subtext or

387

:

implied meaning of what the joke was.

388

:

So it can feel sort of inauthentic

and again, it's quite taxing.

389

:

There's a lot of that monitoring

and analysis going on.

390

:

I know I've got a lot of.

391

:

Autistic clients or ADHD mums that

tell me there's so much planning

392

:

and preparation and analysis

that goes into just eye contact.

393

:

So even though it might look like I'm

making sort of appropriate eye contact

394

:

in their own heads, they're really trying

to think about how much eye contact is.

395

:

It's normal to show that I'm interested

and engaged in this conversation

396

:

versus I don't want to make too much

eye contact and sort of intimidate

397

:

them or, or sort of freak them out.

398

:

But then at the same time, direct

eye contact might be viscerally

399

:

really uncomfortable for them.

400

:

So they try to pick a point, whether

that's between the other person's

401

:

sort of eyebrows or slightly

off to the side of their face.

402

:

So the.

403

:

The conversational partner sort of

has experience of, they're listening

404

:

to me, they're making eye contact

with the other person's using a

405

:

whole lot of masking strategies.

406

:

Yeah, really complicated and distracting

ones to, to just try and behave, I

407

:

guess, in that neuro normative way.

408

:

You've probably read a lot of those

articles and in a really good blogs

409

:

on the internet, Jane, they talk about

how a lot of the, some of the traits

410

:

of ADHD and autism can be really

contradictory to each other, which.

411

:

It just sort of leads to, uh, a bit

of a shit show or it's a hot mess.

412

:

So of the most common things we talk

about and we see is how the ADHD brain

413

:

craves stimulation and novelty and

really doesn't like routine or really

414

:

rejects like scheduling and planning

too far ahead, or maybe it wants to, but

415

:

it just finds that really hard to do.

416

:

But an autistic brain is very easily

overwhelmed and overstimulated and.

417

:

Absolutely needs routine and sameness

to feel regulated and controlled.

418

:

So you can imagine that's, that's quite

a friction point between very different

419

:

needs for those sort of two parts of the

neurotype that that person lives with.

420

:

We also see a lot of overlap with

sort of sensory sensitivities and

421

:

executive functioning challenges.

422

:

So an ADHD mum might find it

really difficult to like schedule

423

:

in all these sort of extra

social events or obligations.

424

:

So if we think about all the

social events coming up, it's

425

:

a good context for untangling.

426

:

a few of the sort of similarities

and those differences between an

427

:

autistic brain and an ADHD brain

428

:

So if you've got an event coming up, ADHD

brain might really naturally struggle to

429

:

schedule that in, to fit that in, then to

do all the planning that goes around that.

430

:

It might be organizing a new outfit,

booking in a babysitter, figuring out

431

:

how you're going to get there and back.

432

:

I think it's a lot of moms that carry that

cognitive load of all that organization.

433

:

So that can be really stressful and

difficult, prone to careless errors.

434

:

But then an autistic brain might be

so overwhelmed by not having a highly

435

:

detailed plan that this anxiety fuels

the hyper focus on organization.

436

:

So the ADHD is my struggle to turn

up on time, but because an autistic

437

:

brain just absolutely can't cope with

anything unexpected or potentially risk

438

:

an awkward social entrance to the event

by turning up a bit late, then it's

439

:

like the autistic part and that anxiety

will fuel someone's hyper detailed

440

:

sort of preparation and planning.

441

:

So instead of turning up late, they might

actually be like an hour or more early.

442

:

A lot of my.

443

:

There's this sort of running joke where

they will tell me if there's a dinner

444

:

on, they'll tell me that it starts

half an hour later than it actually

445

:

does, because then I'll turn up on time

versus if they tell me it starts at

446

:

six, I'll be there probably somewhere

between five and five 30 when I'm still

447

:

in the middle of like witching hour

and definitely not ready for visitor.

448

:

And that's, because my autistic

brain is just desperately can't

449

:

handle the thought of things.

450

:

There's traffic or the parking

situation is more complicated than

451

:

I anticipated, or like again, a

multitude of possible deviations that

452

:

I just can't even fathom how I would

cope with those things in the moment.

453

:

So the DSMs ask about ADHD

is, are you often late?

454

:

But you can see in that, in that

example, there in the autistic brain

455

:

is does a good job at sort of masking.

456

:

Those sort of challenges

with organization, timing.

457

:

So say we've, you know, we've

got everything organized.

458

:

We turn up to this Christmas party.

459

:

Yes.

460

:

Okay.

461

:

I'm half an hour early.

462

:

That's fine.

463

:

Everyone knows me in the event itself,

obviously an autistic brain might

464

:

feel really anxious and overloaded and

uncertain, not knowing who will be there.

465

:

How perfectly the outfit

matches the dress code.

466

:

And for me, as we know, how long

can I cope with this annoying

467

:

underwire straplessness?

468

:

bra until I feel like I implode.

469

:

Feeling uncomfortable with the whole

small talk thing, what's the right

470

:

amount of eye contact, preferring

to hold back during interactions.

471

:

Cause a lot of autistic people just love

observing and sort of taking it all in.

472

:

And, it's that hyper

processing that happens.

473

:

Ideally, we have a little bit of space

in, and room to do that, without it being

474

:

the sort of an intense group conversation.

475

:

But on the flip side, the ADHD part

of my brain, a lot of other ADHD

476

:

brains is all excited, dressed up.

477

:

energetic, sensory seeking.

478

:

So it's really going to rally a lot of

that, that motivation, that drive just

479

:

to bounce around the room, approach

new people, initiate conversations.

480

:

That person might have a few sort of.

481

:

Prescripted ways of engaging in small

talk, if that doesn't come so naturally.

482

:

And there's certainly a lot of that

sort of analysis and awareness of

483

:

eye contact and, and body language

that an autistic brain might do a

484

:

lot of masking, compensating around.

485

:

So.

486

:

From the outside, that particular

person, there's certain flavors of

487

:

me in there, but a lot of moms I know

listening to this podcast, they don't

488

:

necessarily look neurodivergent,

whether that's ADHD or, or, and or

489

:

autistic, but they certainly are.

490

:

And they're just doing a whole lot of

work behind the scenes to sort of manage

491

:

how those differences might present.

492

:

I, I always think about that duck thing.

493

:

I think you've mentioned a few times, Jane

is like on the surface of the water, the

494

:

duck looks really calm and grounded and.

495

:

Chilled out, but under the surface,

those legs are going million

496

:

miles an hour just to stay afloat

in that particular environment.

497

:

Uh, and that's right.

498

:

That's what I feel personally a lot in

social events, but mostly, mostly social

499

:

events where I'm not overly familiar

with the people or the sorts of topics

500

:

that they would be talking about.

501

:

Like my husband's Christmas party with his

construction in the construction industry.

502

:

There's a lot of conversations that I

have no personal interest and or sort

503

:

of knowledge about and we all know

that ADHD brains and autistic brains,

504

:

their interest based nervous system.

505

:

So they're going to find it really hard

to sustain conversations that aren't

506

:

of that sort of intrinsic interest.

507

:

A lot of that landed with

me and my little throne.

508

:

It's like, Oh, this is, I do like to

arrive an hour early, wherever I go.

509

:

But I always thought that was

like anxiety about being late.

510

:

Like I've always relied

on my anxiety to move me.

511

:

So when people say, Oh,

are you always late?

512

:

You have ADHD.

513

:

I'm never late.

514

:

Ever.

515

:

Because I'm, like, freakishly early,

because I anticipate every single

516

:

thing that could happen on the way.

517

:

Overplan it, and then

over, yeah, and then over.

518

:

Yeah, so it's a difficult one, isn't it?

519

:

I mean, obviously not for you, because

you're a clinical psychologist, but

520

:

as a mum, and you're like, Well,

I'm not always late, but I thought

521

:

that was heavily masking ADHD.

522

:

I mean, jeez, it is a bit confusing.

523

:

No, but it absolutely can be, you're just

saying it's driven by anxiety and the

524

:

rates of anxiety in neurodivergent people,

especially even ADHD is significantly

525

:

higher than the general population.

526

:

So, there is a lot of running

on adrenaline and there's

527

:

been a lot of mistakes, right?

528

:

A lot of Feeling let down,

letting other people's down.

529

:

There's a lot of actually trauma that

goes into trying to live in a neurotypical

530

:

world that I think fuels that anxiety.

531

:

And, and there's a lot of

other factors to temperament.

532

:

Maybe you grew up in a family

where punctuality was a really,

533

:

really valued sort of trait to

quality of behavioral trait.

534

:

So there's a lot of other factors that

I think would influence the way that

535

:

someone experiences sort of these.

536

:

Things like time management and

punctuality and organization

537

:

and strategizing and so forth.

538

:

So I don't in any way mean to sort of

simplify it as, well, if you do this,

539

:

therefore you're probably also autistic.

540

:

It's just that in these situations,

it's like the, the autistic part is

541

:

actually a source of anxiety because

by definition, the autistic brain

542

:

really struggles to cope and adapt

flexibly in situations where something

543

:

unexpected happens or something.

544

:

You know, pulls the plan off track.

545

:

Yeah, got it.

546

:

Okay.

547

:

There seems to be a common pattern when

mums are getting diagnosed and treated

548

:

for ADHD, either as a child or an adult.

549

:

And then months or years later,

they start to question if

550

:

they then might be autistic.

551

:

So you mentioned earlier in

some of your other episodes

552

:

around your personal journey.

553

:

Can you share with us how that

went for you in what sequence?

554

:

Yeah, so I was initially, I think, I think

misdiagnosed with narcolepsy, although

555

:

narcolepsy and ADHD do commonly co occur.

556

:

But then as I sort of went into uni

years really, that was re evaluated

557

:

and reinterpreted as ADHD combined.

558

:

So I took stimulant medication on and

off for most of my 20s, which really

559

:

helped with those particular symptoms.

560

:

And then, yeah, it was quite a

shock when my ADHD psychiatrist,

561

:

and then I followed up with a second

opinion, actually proposed it.

562

:

Some of those sort of leftover

neurodivergent traits might be better

563

:

explained by also being autistic.

564

:

And even as a clinical psychologist

at that stage, I had the immediate,

565

:

like, fear response as well.

566

:

Like, does that mean I'm gonna be non

verbal, like, sort of rocking in a corner,

567

:

not gonna be able to progress in my,

with my career aspirations and so forth?

568

:

Which, of course, Like, of course not.

569

:

I'm me.

570

:

I've always been me.

571

:

And the trajectory sort of, as I

sort of decide that, of course,

572

:

that's not going to be me.

573

:

I am who I am.

574

:

I've always been this person, regardless

of whether someone's clarified the sort

575

:

of neurodivergent diagnoses or not.

576

:

So it really doesn't

have to be a limitation.

577

:

We just need to understand it.

578

:

So a lot of those sort of extra or the

leftover traits that the psychiatrist.

579

:

Yeah, identified for me were

the really extreme sensory

580

:

sensitivities, the rigidity.

581

:

So around like routine and needing

everything to be really detailed

582

:

and organized and planned to a T.

583

:

And again, ADHDers can be like that.

584

:

It's like, what happens if

things don't go to plan?

585

:

ADHDers can be a bit more creative

and flexible in their, like,

586

:

problem solving and troubleshooting.

587

:

Whereas an autistic brain can

be quite overloaded and shut

588

:

down with that sort of stress.

589

:

And I found, like, a lot of my

social mannerisms to evolve after

590

:

I The ADHD side of things were sort

of stabilized with the medication.

591

:

So if we think about that example before,

the ADHD masking, maybe some of that

592

:

social anxiety for the autistic brain

in a social setting, all of a sudden

593

:

the impulsivity and the restlessness

and sort of that excitability is

594

:

like dialed down a few notches.

595

:

medication.

596

:

So in a way it's like I lost a bit

of that armory or the masking that

597

:

came from untreated ADHD, at least

in those like interpersonal settings.

598

:

So that is a common pattern that I

see clinically is mums So, um, yeah.

599

:

Often, yeah, like you said before,

kids are getting sort of diagnosed

600

:

and parents are like, well, I

recognize a lot of those traits.

601

:

They get the ADHD evaluated and treated.

602

:

And then a few years later, they're

like, okay, well, some of that stuff

603

:

has sort of settled down for me.

604

:

But now I noticed like how awkward

I feel in social settings, or I

605

:

just hate small talk and I just copy

bullet and I don't have the energy.

606

:

Wait, that's.

607

:

That's just me.

608

:

It's like, they sort of start to see this.

609

:

Oh no, I did that on the weekend.

610

:

I circulated around a prep birthday party,

which I haven't been to any all year.

611

:

I always send my husband

because I hate them.

612

:

I can't stand them.

613

:

They're like my pet hate.

614

:

And my son said to me, mommy, you never

come and meet my friends, mums, and of

615

:

course that tugs at your heartstrings.

616

:

I was like, don't worry, I'm

going to buffer up for it.

617

:

I had to cancel nippers

because I couldn't do both.

618

:

Yeah, I had to cancel nippers

because I couldn't do both.

619

:

I can't, I can't actually do both.

620

:

That's not going to work for me.

621

:

So to cancel nippers, to go to this

party, and then I went there and found

622

:

the most neurodivergent mums I could find

because you can kind of pick out the kids.

623

:

Oh, that's amazing.

624

:

Yes, you get a reader.

625

:

It was terrible.

626

:

I felt really bad.

627

:

Like it's not, this is not a

very, well, actually it was

628

:

well intentioned, actually.

629

:

So I figured out who was who from

the mix, and who I'd seen at the

630

:

Christmas concert with headphones

on and sensory issues, clearly.

631

:

They had water guns, so all the,

some of the kids couldn't cope

632

:

with the water being shot at them.

633

:

And I was looking at who was comforting

them, and I was like eyeballing them,

634

:

like, that's who I need to talk to.

635

:

Then I would then go and

isolate them into a corner.

636

:

And we would go deep and

dark, and I had the best time.

637

:

I only spoke to about Three people,

but I had the best time with them all.

638

:

And then I said to my son

afterwards, mate, like, how

639

:

do you feel about this kid?

640

:

Really like them?

641

:

How about we do a play date?

642

:

And he's like, I don't

like any of those kids.

643

:

And I was like, come on.

644

:

Well, tough, tough.

645

:

You will be friends.

646

:

We will be friends.

647

:

That's, that is an interest.

648

:

I think it's a really interesting

thing that you bring up because

649

:

a lot of mums who are medicated

get that initial excitement.

650

:

They get that feeling.

651

:

They're very excited on the DMS.

652

:

Probably three, four, six months

later, they're messaging me again.

653

:

So this is such an interesting

topic because what is left?

654

:

What a great point.

655

:

Yeah, it's like the differences as well.

656

:

We're not, we're not looking for deficits.

657

:

It's the differences in the way people

communicate both in terms of the content.

658

:

So obviously you and I, we sort of

share a preference there for deep

659

:

and meaningful sort of philosophical

abstract conversational content over.

660

:

Discussing the weather, for example,

but there's also a difference in,

661

:

in the way in which you communicate.

662

:

So it's, it's not in a neurotypical world.

663

:

It's not very common just to

go the first time I've met

664

:

you, let's sit down and let's.

665

:

really pull apart this sort of existential

threads of meaning of life type of stuff.

666

:

But that just feels so, so right

and so connecting and so bonding,

667

:

especially for, I'm just going to

say neurodivergent brains there.

668

:

So there's those differences.

669

:

And again, from an outsider's

perspective, they go, no, Jane's fine.

670

:

She doesn't, poor girl,

she's got all these.

671

:

She's done all these cool things.

672

:

I can see her here at the party.

673

:

She's deep in conversation, totally

connected, paying attention.

674

:

Like she couldn't possibly be near

a divergent, but then once you get

675

:

underneath the behavior and you

actually sort of tease apart those

676

:

idiosyncrasies, then you go, okay,

there are some differences here.

677

:

So how do we.

678

:

Um, and I think it's really

important for us to be able to

679

:

better understand those differences.

680

:

A lot of it could be ADHD.

681

:

Absolutely.

682

:

Are there sort of leftover things

that maybe aren't so neatly explained

683

:

and what else could be sort of,

yeah, like influencing that.

684

:

And same thing for me.

685

:

Like, I remember before my wedding,

my husband and I was like over

686

:

10 years ago now, but I remember.

687

:

Losing so much sleep and sometimes just

randomly crying, trying to figure out

688

:

how I would like introduce different

like tables, like different domains

689

:

of friends and family from different

parts of our life, like sort of

690

:

bring them together in some cohesive

group where everyone was sort of

691

:

finding common ground to talk about.

692

:

And I remember my, again, my husband

was trying to convince me that

693

:

that wasn't my responsibility.

694

:

And people generally don't find that.

695

:

Too hard.

696

:

They don't need someone standing is

sort of coaching them through that.

697

:

And I actually really,

I didn't believe him.

698

:

I was like, well, how that's

so complicated though.

699

:

How, like, where do you start?

700

:

And what about if you feel awkward

and you don't want to be in the

701

:

conversation anymore, but you, you don't.

702

:

You don't know how to get out, or you're

at the same table together and you're

703

:

stuck there for four hours, and it's

just like, people don't generally sort of

704

:

think and overanalyze that sort of stuff.

705

:

Like, you don't, you don't

need to plan for that.

706

:

But then again, the autistic

part of my brain was like, well,

707

:

how do I not plan for that?

708

:

So that was, things like

that I get really lost in.

709

:

This is so interesting because I only

started medication, I don't know, I'm

710

:

trying to remember now, it would be like

the start of the year, let's say May

711

:

or June or something, I can't remember.

712

:

And we planned our wedding.

713

:

My husband and I, so we got,

like, we never had a wedding.

714

:

So he promised me if I ever wanted

to have a wedding, we'd have one.

715

:

So we planned it, let's say

January, December last year.

716

:

And it was in August.

717

:

So, when I, I've planned an event,

not medicated, and then I've lived

718

:

through the event, medicated.

719

:

There was a lot of questions in my mind

when I was in the event, about what was

720

:

I thinking when I planned the event.

721

:

And I think when you, when you become

medicated, and then you do change a

722

:

little bit, I feel like I have anyway.

723

:

And you're still living through

the decisions that you made for

724

:

yourself when you were unmedicated.

725

:

And there is some strong differences

around what I would have done

726

:

if medicated Jane had have made.

727

:

Yeah, and that was a really

different thing because the week

728

:

of the wedding, I could not cope.

729

:

And it was, yeah, and that was,

it was really hard because I was

730

:

thinking, why have I, this was me, I

planned this, but yet now I'm here.

731

:

I'm not feeling the way I expected.

732

:

It was a really interesting mix

now when you talk about, yeah,

733

:

medicating ADHD and then what's left.

734

:

Yeah.

735

:

That's super interesting.

736

:

Okay.

737

:

So you were talking about your diagnosis.

738

:

Just like getting a diagnosis of

ADHD as an adult, like many of your

739

:

listeners, Jane, I think my secondary

diagnosis of autism also came as a

740

:

mix of relief and its own challenges.

741

:

On one hand, understanding the

all DHT neurotype can provide.

742

:

a lot of clarity and self awareness and

a huge amount of self compassion, but

743

:

it might also bring a sense of grief

and missed opportunities for support

744

:

and coping strategies earlier in life.

745

:

Nonetheless, I think overall it's been a

huge, hugely valuable experience for me

746

:

to help, I guess, to, to learn about both.

747

:

Sort of parts of my brain and and the

unique needs I've had the opportunity

748

:

to be able to recognize and understand

About sort of both those neurotypes

749

:

that sometimes work together really

well like best friends and sometimes

750

:

they're like my young children

sort of brawling ripping down the

751

:

Christmas tree and sending my Yeah.

752

:

My kitchen, my lounge room

into just such a mess.

753

:

I feel like sometimes that the, the autism

and the ADHD are completely in conflict.

754

:

But again, if I sort of have that

knowledge of why I feel that way at

755

:

that time, then I try to ask myself,

which part do I feel is like louder

756

:

or those needs a lot of right now.

757

:

And how can I prioritize

meeting those and then reassess.

758

:

So an example of that process would.

759

:

So be at a Christmas event, if I'm really

struggling to follow a conversation and

760

:

I'm sort of asking questions about things

that have already been discussed, or

761

:

I just can't filter out the background

music and the noise and the movement

762

:

and everyone just having a good time.

763

:

But if I start to feel like that sensory

overload, then I think, right, my.

764

:

The autistic part of my brain really

needs me to manage that, regulate that

765

:

sensory input or the environment before

I could possibly do anything else that's

766

:

meaningful or interesting or rewarding.

767

:

So often that will mean that

I, I need to leave or I need to

768

:

take some quiet time outside or.

769

:

I do scrolling on my phone in the, in

the bathroom for a little bit, but my

770

:

husband, he's also very supportive of me

just smoke bombing, which is just like

771

:

just bailing without doing the whole near

normative go around the room and sort

772

:

of think and thank everyone Which I want

to do, and I like the value that that

773

:

gratitude represents, but if I'm already

at 90 out of 100 with censoring social

774

:

overload, then I know that's going to be

too much like you said with the nippers.

775

:

You just have to cut your

losses and send a text later.

776

:

That feels like a much more

accommodating way of dealing with it.

777

:

Oh yeah, there's nothing

wrong with a disappear.

778

:

I disappeared from my own Christmas party.

779

:

The other day, I, and it was

my own party, I was the owner

780

:

of the party, it was my party.

781

:

At your house?

782

:

No, it was at a venue in Brisbane

and I pretended to go to the toilet.

783

:

That's better.

784

:

It was, it was so funny because I was

pretending to go to the toilet and the

785

:

reason I, the reason what set me off

was I saw all of these people setting

786

:

up like those photo booths and they

had the silly hats and all of the

787

:

stuff and I saw them all starting.

788

:

And I was like, no, I

can't, I'm out, I'm out.

789

:

And anyway, so I walked, I got my bag and

I was like, I reckon there's a, I reckon

790

:

I'm either going to have to do photos

with every person here with all this

791

:

weird shit on, which I'm going to hate.

792

:

Or I could go to the toilet and I

thought I'll go to the toilet real

793

:

quick and go up to the Sunshine

Coast and I'll hightail it out.

794

:

As I'm going to the toilet, of

course, because I'm spatially just.

795

:

Ridiculously unaware.

796

:

I couldn't find the exit

because that's who I am.

797

:

I can't find any exit ever.

798

:

So I'm trying to disappear

as I'm trying to exit, right?

799

:

Someone comes and grabs me and

goes, you're not leaving, are you?

800

:

I completely denied it.

801

:

I was like, Oh no, of course not.

802

:

I'm just going to the toilet.

803

:

Then this lady had just seen me in the

toilet, left some things in my car.

804

:

Yeah.

805

:

She'd seen me in the toilet.

806

:

She saw me and I was grabbed and

I was like, Where is the exit?

807

:

I need to leave.

808

:

And she's like, you should have just

pulled this, this, the fire alarm button.

809

:

Like just everyone fails into the car.

810

:

Oh, it was so bad.

811

:

And then I was trying to get into

the lift and there was someone else

812

:

in there that I was trying to avoid

and I was out and I was in, and then

813

:

my husband was ringing me and I was

like, I've got to get out of here.

814

:

And I said, he's like, Tara,

Tara, I just had to get out.

815

:

And then people messaged me later on.

816

:

Oh, I didn't get to say goodbye.

817

:

And I was like, oh, I'm so sorry.

818

:

I just had to go.

819

:

Yeah, but even then it's like

we, we don't actually need to, we

820

:

don't need to say, sorry, do it.

821

:

We can actually just be really authentic

and just acknowledge the fact that I

822

:

reached my limit and I really enjoyed

it for the time that I was there.

823

:

But obviously I wanted to

quit while I was ahead.

824

:

And it was so good to see you.

825

:

It was like, that's it.

826

:

We can just normalize that rather

than having to be like, Oh, I'm

827

:

sorry, I do it in a neurotypical way.

828

:

Unfortunately, my two year old

is like hyper social and anytime

829

:

we go somewhere, he's really.

830

:

Drawn to wanting to like wave and

hug and interact to be picked up

831

:

by pretty much everyone in the

room and that that's even in Public

832

:

places like just going to a cafe.

833

:

He wants to interact with everyone in

the space So if we have any other your

834

:

appointments or you like Christmas

events and family do's which again?

835

:

I generally really enjoy but I would

prefer when I'm reaching my limit that

836

:

I, I very subtle exit out the back

door or whatever it is, but he will be

837

:

like, no, he's like the hug, hug, hug.

838

:

He's like very, very demanding of those,

those sort of formalized farewells.

839

:

And meanwhile, I'm just like

trying to hide behind a curtain.

840

:

So it's been like, tell

me when you're done.

841

:

Oh yeah, especially my kids are

huggers too, and I always stand

842

:

there like a board because I'm

like, I'm a non consensual hugger.

843

:

I'm like, you can hug me,

but I'm not gonna move.

844

:

I'm gonna make it really awkward because

I don't want you to hug me again.

845

:

Again, let's just be authentic and

just You say, cheers, I'm not a hugger.

846

:

My husband hugs me and I just stand

there like a bored, he's like, that

847

:

was, that did not feel reciprocated.

848

:

And I was like, well, it wasn't.

849

:

So, yeah, it's a whole nother

conversation, but we need to be, we need

850

:

to be sane advocating for ourselves.

851

:

Right.

852

:

Yeah.

853

:

And look, if my kids didn't want

to hug someone, I would say, just

854

:

say that you don't want to hug.

855

:

But sometimes I just feel like it's so

off putting for people to hug someone

856

:

that's standing there like a board.

857

:

They never go in twice.

858

:

That's just been my So what should

our ADHD mums do if they think they

859

:

might have autistic characteristics?

860

:

As we've, we've covered today, Jane, I

think it can be really tricky to tease

861

:

apart ADHD and autism, and especially for

people who have other sort of co occurring

862

:

complexities like anxiety or depression.

863

:

or learning disorders or dyslexia,

dysgraphia, anything like that.

864

:

So really don't feel like it's your

responsibility or it's your job

865

:

to have that specialist ability

to be able to tease those apart.

866

:

Yes, you can deep dive into research.

867

:

I suspect a lot of moms will do that after

listening to this podcast today, but don't

868

:

feel like you've got to figure it out.

869

:

And on the other side of the

same coin, I think it's also

870

:

important to acknowledge that self

identification is really valid as well.

871

:

So if you're reading more about autism,

and especially high masking or high

872

:

camouflaging variants of autism, and

you think, wow, there's a lot of that

873

:

that really does fit for me, then It's

perfectly okay for you just to build that

874

:

curiosity and that self understanding

and to, and to run with that.

875

:

It's just about what works for you

and how that, how that helps you.

876

:

You really only need to look into a

formalized diagnosis with a clinical

877

:

psychologist or other appropriately

qualified health professional if

878

:

you're wanting to look at supports

like NDIS or disability support

879

:

pension, things like that, that have

more formalized acceptance criteria.

880

:

So there's no medical treatment,

sort of gold standard for autism

881

:

because it's not a disease.

882

:

You don't need treatment

and you can't be cured.

883

:

So we got to stop looking for a fix,

which is quite a different paradigm

884

:

when we think about ADHD and the

very well studied, well accepted

885

:

efficacy of stimulant medication.

886

:

But autism, there's nothing like that.

887

:

That's sort of a pill

that can make things.

888

:

But if you do want to explore it with

a psychologist, if you don't want to

889

:

go down that formal diagnostic route,

which yeah, as we've said before, can

890

:

be expensive and a few barriers to that.

891

:

If you just want to chat about it

and peel back the layers of the

892

:

onion more informally, you could

speak with your GP about getting a

893

:

mental health care plan, a referral

to chat to a psychologist or an OT.

894

:

It could be.

895

:

Other health professionals that

hopefully have experience in, in

896

:

mums with this sort of high masking

neurodivergent characteristics.

897

:

So if you're going down the path of

using a mental health care plan, then

898

:

to be eligible for those Medicare

rebatable sessions, you need to have

899

:

some other co occurring challenges

like anxiety or mood challenges or like

900

:

adjustment difficulties and so forth.

901

:

And really, yeah, that's what I

love doing in my sessions as well.

902

:

It's just like really

respectfully and gently.

903

:

Teasing apart those more traditional

stereotype traits and then there's

904

:

really beautiful idiosyncratic ways that

these differences can also manifest.

905

:

It just, it feels like there's this

light bulb that it just keeps sort

906

:

of Glowing brighter and brighter and

brighter and brighter and it's, there's

907

:

no stopping it until obviously we all have

a migraine from fluorescent light, so.

908

:

But I, yeah, it's just such a nice

therapeutic way of like exploring

909

:

those different sort of parts of

you, of you and your personality.

910

:

Uh, do your own research, just like

with ADHD, get in there, there's

911

:

some fantastic resources out there

that I, I love, especially for.

912

:

The presentations, the characteristics

we've been talking about today.

913

:

So I think Jane's gonna link

to those in the show notes.

914

:

One of my absolute favorite is the

website neurodivergentinsights.

915

:

com.

916

:

Dr.

917

:

Krista Neff, she's a ADHD psychotherapist.

918

:

But yeah, if you've got questions, I'm

sure she's got a blog article about it.

919

:

She just writes in such a digestible way.

920

:

We are going to finish up.

921

:

Jacinta, this episode has been

fascinating, it really has been.

922

:

thank you so much for your time, Jacinta.

923

:

I'm going to add in all of Jacinta's

details and all of the information

924

:

that she's given on the episode notes.

925

:

If you have loved this, then please

send me a DM, Make sure you follow

926

:

us on Spotify, leave a review.

927

:

And you are not alone.

928

:

Find your community and we

will do the best we can.

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