On this episode of The ADHD Mums Podcast, Jane welcomes Dr. Jacinta Thomson, a clinical psychologist with expertise in ADHD and autism, for a discussion on the intersection of these neurodivergences. Jacinta introduces the complexity of distinguishing between ADHD and autism, emphasising the unique challenges faced by individuals who may exhibit traits of both conditions. Jane and Jacinta delve into the outdated stereotypes associated with autism and how these perceptions can hinder accurate recognition.

Jacinta sheds light on the DSM criteria for autism, highlighting differences in relating to others, communication, and interacting with the environment, and advocates for a neuroaffirming approach, emphasising identity-first language to acknowledge that neurodivergent conditions are intrinsic parts of an individual's identity. The conversation touches on how neurodivergent brains process information, sensory sensitivities, and the need for routine.

The discussion takes a personal turn as Jane shares her experience with a friend's autism diagnosis and the nuances of social interactions. Jacinta explains the subtle ways ADHD and autism traits may manifest in social settings, exploring the challenges of non-verbal communication, understanding implied meanings, and navigating sensory overload. The conversation highlights the importance of recognising the individualised nature of these neurodivergences and tailoring support accordingly, fostering a deeper understanding of the complexities involved.

If you'd like to know more about Dr Jacinta Thomson check her out here: www.timetountangle.com.au/

Disclaimer from Dr Jacinta Thomson

It is crucial to note that the information shared in the following episode is for general educational and informational purposes only. The content presented here is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any condition, and may not fully capture the nuances of your experience. This conversation does not constitute medical or psychiatric advice and is not a therapeutic session. It should not be relied upon as a substitute for personalised guidance from your treating health practitioner.

If you or someone you know is seeking assistance or clarification regarding ADHD or Autism, we strongly encourage you to consult with a qualified healthcare professional who can provide tailored advice based on a thorough assessment of your specific circumstances.

Hello and welcome to the

next episode of ADHD Mums.

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I have Jacinta Thompson here, one of

our most popular interviewees ever.

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She has the episode, How to Get a

Diagnosis Part 1 and 2, which is still

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one of our most downloaded episodes.

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ever.

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Jacinta looks very uncomfortable

as I talk about how great she is.

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I will give you a quick

overview about Jacinta.

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Jacinta is a clinical psychologist

and she has extensive experience

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in public and private health care.

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She's taught at universities, she's

presented her research internationally,

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and she's also done some public speaking.

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Jacinta has two young children

and she is particularly passionate

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about helping parents cope in such

a challenging perinatal period.

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Jacinta has done a couple of episodes

with me, and she's also in her own

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practice up here on the Sunshine Coast

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I have had amazing feedback coming in

to me about Jacinta and her therapy,

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so much so I thought about booking

in myself, but I thought let's not.

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Burn Jacinta out with

all of Jane's energies.

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So welcome to you Jacinta.

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Thanks Jane.

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It's good to be back.

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I've had a lot of fun, the conversations

that we've had previously and I thought

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why not cram another one into December?

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It's not like it's already

sort of sensory overload month.

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It's another one on top.

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Well, I've actually been cancelling

interviewees all over the place

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and I cleared my schedule as soon

as you reached out and said you'd

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be willing to do another one.

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So I've been very excited about this

because I think it's such a great topic.

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Do you want to give us an overview?

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Because I don't want, it

was your idea Jacinta, and I

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just think it's so relevant.

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one of the biggest commonly, you know,

co occurring diagnosis is autism.

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So I thought it was really important

just to talk a bit more about what

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it looks like when someone might have

both ADHD and autistic characteristics.

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What sort of patterns we see

professionally, clinically, in terms

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of how one might sort of show up.

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And maybe even masking or camouflaging the

other and then that sort of swaps around

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later in life or in different life stages.

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I think maybe up front I'll just clarify

in my neuro affirming practice, I use

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the term autistic, which is an identity

first explanation rather than saying

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someone like a person with autism as if

it's sort of like a bag or an outfit that

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you can sort of pick up and put down.

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It's very central and fundamental to

someone's identity just as ADHD is.

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And I always try to say autism and

I save the term autistic spectrum

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disorders or ASD only in clinical

reference to a diagnosis, say in a

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diagnostic report, try to drop the D

because I don't think it's a disorder.

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I think it's a difference and it

can absolutely be something that

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is a strength if sort of recognized

and supported appropriately.

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And just another thing on semantics today,

if I say all DHD, which is a U DHD, that's

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a common reference to, for someone who's

been diagnosed with both ADHD and autism.

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It's just a bit of a shortcut.

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Yeah, perfect.

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This is so interesting already.

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Would you mind, because I, I think

there's a lot of people in this

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podcast that would never want to

offend anybody or say the wrong thing.

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And also we've got

terrible working memories.

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So I'm always trying to be careful in

my podcast that I'm not offensive to

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anybody, but I also cannot remember

whether it's person with autism or

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autistic because I actually listened to

you and thought, I actually thought that

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I read that you should say, person with

autism because they're a person first.

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So now I'm a bit confused,

would you mind discussing why?

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Because I, I think that

will make sense to me.

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Yeah.

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So previously when it comes to

acknowledging a mental health diagnosis,

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something like depression or even

schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, we

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Consider those mental health conditions

or diagnoses something that doesn't

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necessarily need to be lifelong.

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So in other ways, we could talk

about them as sort of episodic

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difficulties or symptoms.

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So in that sense, we, we, we're taught

to use that person first language.

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So person with depression or.

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An adult who's experiencing anxiety,

for example, when it comes to

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neurodevelopmental conditions, so we're

talking about autism and ADHD specifically

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in this podcast today, they are exactly

that, they're sort of neurodevelopmental,

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they're differences in the way the brain

is structured and the way that the brain

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functions that is there from birth.

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And it's there for someone's entire life.

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So it's not like depressive vulnerability.

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Someone goes in and out

of depressive episodes.

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It's something that is

always a part of that person.

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And quite central, we are talking about

the way that the brain is organized.

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And the brain is the lens through which

we perceive and interact with the world

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every single moment of every single day.

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So it's.

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It's very fundamental and I

think it's part of this movement

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of trying to destigmatize

having ADHD or being autistic.

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It's about saying, yes, this is

very much how I am in this world,

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how I experience this world.

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And it's not a problem.

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It's actually pretty cool

that I have this difference.

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So just try to own it a bit more.

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I can't sort of centralize

to our identity.

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Oh, perfect.

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That actually makes total sense to me.

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Okay.

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So this is this, I'm loving this already.

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Sorry.

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I thought I might give a bit of a

personal spin on this because I'll

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struggle not to because of my ADHD.

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So I'm just going to go there, right?

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So when I took my daughter up to get

diagnosed with ADHD to this beautiful

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equine farm here on the Sunshine Coast,

they kind of played with animals and

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did the diagnosis all in the one play.

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It was beautiful.

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Anyway, basically the clinical

psychologist there who I love, but

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won't, I'm not naming her just because.

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For her own privacy, not actually

love her and I think she's brilliant.

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She was saying that she thought

that I had some autistic traits.

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And that she thought that I could, or

should, could, should, go up and see her.

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And I was a little bit confused

because I went into high

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research mode, as we all do.

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And I tried to find the differences

between Autistic and ADHD is.

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I was just wondering, in regards to high

masking mums, it can be often extremely

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difficult to even find the difference,

to even discover that you are, have

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ADHD, let alone autism or be autistic.

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What would be those differences?

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that you would see?

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Because I found no

information on that anywhere.

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Yeah, it's a bit of a, it's a bit of mind

boggling really because if we just came

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over to the DSM, which is the Diagnostic

and Statistical Manual that clinical

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psychologists and most mental health

professionals will look at the criteria

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there and sort of match up how does this

person presenting in front of me tick

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off these boxes and are there enough

sort of ticks in the boxes to reach the

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threshold that the powers that be have

sort of determined that that's clinically

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significant and need a warranty of.

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of that diagnosis.

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So if you look at like autism and then

you look at ADHD, they're actually

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completely different profiles.

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There is no overlapping or commonalities

between those behaviors or those

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characteristics on each side, which is.

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It's just so far removed from what, how

we actually sort of present in real life.

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There is significant amount of parallels

and a lot of behaviours that could sit

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in sort of, you know, be driven by an

ADHD sort of need or by an autistic

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need, but on the outside, those

behaviours might look exactly the same.

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So go figure, hey?

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That is not what I have read.

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And not what is widely described.

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So I'm kind of mind blown already because

a lot of people say, Oh, I think there's

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the stats are, and look, you, you'll know

better than I am, but it's like one in

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25 have ADHD, one in 36 are autistic.

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And then there's that blend of overlap and

it can look similar and it's hard to know

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which is which, but you're actually kind

of changing that already, which is kind of

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mind blowing to me because I was always in

this impression of, how do you even know?

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If you have ADHD or if you're autistic,

and then I was trying to figure out how

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many people on my podcast are possibly

autistic women that have no idea.

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Yeah, I, I, so what I'm, I guess

what I'm saying is if you're a pure,

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hardcore DSM enthusiast, then then

there is no sort of similarities there.

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In inverted commas here, it's

easy that they're that distinct

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that they can be pulled apart

without any sort of major effort.

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But in reality, you're right.

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I think for so many people and mums as

well, ADHD mums, they probably have had

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these little inklings, little questions

about, okay, I've got a sort of range

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of Neurodivergent characteristics

or traits or behaviors or struggles.

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It seems like maybe a bulk of them

can be explained by ADHD, but maybe

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there's a few sort of extra things

or sort of overflow as my own

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psychiatrist sort of calls them that

this is sort of the pattern of what I.

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Typically, you see is, is moms that

come in and they sort of have the ADHD

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evaluated and then it might be years

or months or years later, once the ADHD

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symptoms have stabilized, that those

sort of inklings and those questions and

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queries start to get a little bit louder

because they, they sort of want to know

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what else could be, what could be the sort

of explanation for these other differences

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that they're noticing more and more.

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And you mentioned there, Jane, that the

overlap in sort of the prevalence there.

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So the statistics that you shared there.

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The range varies so widely in the

research, but roughly 1 in 25 adults

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are ADHD, so about 4%, as you said,

and 1 in 36 are autistic, but about

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60 percent of those individuals will

have both characteristics from autism.

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of both ADHD and autism.

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So what that really means is that

we're actually more likely to have

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both than we are to be sort of a

pure ADHD or, or a purely autistic.

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So in reality, there's going

to be a lot of moms on here who

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have ADHD, but they also have.

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clinically significant

autistic characteristics.

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Now that doesn't necessarily

make you autistic.

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Uh, as I said, there's

just so much overlap.

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And it doesn't necessarily

make it a problem.

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It's not something you need to,

you know, pick up the phone and

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quickly make a doctor's appointment.

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Shit, I think I could have missed

36 years of being autistic.

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It's, it's just something I I think

as we're doing here, it's just

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building that curiosity around

what, what might this mean for you?

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What can it look like?

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What sort of severity, do those sort

of differences like impact your life

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or your functioning and what sorts

of supports might you need to assist

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with that sort of overflow of stuff

around the traditional ADHD struggles?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And the DMs that I get, which

are extensive, there is a huge

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amount of them that come in.

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Most of the women list ASD

and ADHD in their children.

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So that would reflect.

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possibly what we're talking about.

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So let's break through what does

autistic traits look like in, in mums.

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I mean, I suppose there's

always the Rayman idea, but

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how is it different from that?

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So again, that really comes from our

outdated stereotyped images of autism,

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and that's really what the research

that went into the criteria in the DSM.

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It comes from the sort of white,

white boys with those very overt or

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like externalized behaviors, sort

of the rocking in the corner, the

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obsessive playing with trains or

rotating wheels on their trucks for

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sort of hours and hours a day at the

exclusion of all other activities.

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So I guess you probably see that a lot

of us would have that image in our head.

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I think that's still like a stigma that

actually is, is associated with a lot

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of fear and worry for parents as well.

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Once the autism.

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A question or word gets presented,

there's a lot of those images that come

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to mind that I think a lot of parents,

especially of our generation and older,

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they obviously, there's just so much

uncertainty there about the extent of

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what disability might be attached to

that, that label or that diagnosis.

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But like with ADHD, we've come so far in

recognizing that ADHD is not just, can you

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do struggle to sit still in your chair?

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It's not just you're jumping

out of your seat to answer

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every question in the classroom.

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It's not just that you

turning up late everywhere.

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And again, we, we understand that

people have developed, people

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develop really clever, sophisticated

and effective coping mechanisms.

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All those compensatory strategies,

like I think we've talked about before.

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Spending hours and hours just hyper

focusing on the diary and the schedule

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and making sure everything in the week

for the family lines up so perfectly.

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So on a bit of paper, you're

not going to tick the box.

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Are you late everywhere?

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As the DSM would sort of suggest about an

ADHD or with inattentive problems because

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you've got those sort of systems in place.

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So what we're trying to do in a really

neuroaffirming assessment is to get

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underneath What those behaviors sort

of look like, and then figure out

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what sorts of strategies do people

have in place that essentially mask

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or camouflage or compensate for those

ADHD and or autistic differences.

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So in the DSM, tell me if this is like.

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It's just a bit of an info dump, Jane.

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But the, so the DCI listen

to, I'm like dying inside.

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I'm so excited.

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So just like, I'm like so pumped.

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So just go for it, I reckon.

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Okay.

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All right.

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Just reign me in if you need to.

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Oh, mate, I will, but I doubt I will.

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Sorry.

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You go.

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Oh, someone needs to, need to

bring us a mimosa or something.

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It's been here a while.

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So in the DSM, the autism is

characterized basically by different

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ways of relating to others.

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So in terms of non verbal and verbal

interactions, communication, differences

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in the way autistic people might

initiate and maintain relationships,

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and also different ways of Interacting

with the environment around us.

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So this might be processing sensory

information in a really overly

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sensitive way or underly sensitive way.

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Navigating change and sort of

disruptions to routine and plans.

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A really, really deep enjoyment of special

interests, which Again, there's quite a

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bit of an overlap there as we can imagine

with ADHD sort of hyper fixation and also

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repetitive behaviors or use of objects

that basically give an autistic brain a

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sense of sameness and repetition and sort

of routine predictability that sort of

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gives their central nervous system a sense

of safety in such an overstimulating,

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overloading world around them.

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And I should note as well that that's

not a verbatim definition from the

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DSM, because the DSM uses a lot of

medicalized pathologizing language, like

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deficits of social emotional reciprocity.

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It's like, well, what, what

does that actually mean?

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And I'm quite open with the fact that

I've been diagnosed with ADHD and autism.

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And I, I wouldn't say that I have

a complete deficit or inability to

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communicate with people, but I definitely

go about it in a, in a different way.

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And those differences

can be really subtle.

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Whether that's because I'm using my

own social camouflaging and masking

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strategies, or they can be a bit more

obvious, especially when I'm relaxed

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in informal space with fellow Neurokin.

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So it's not just your DSM,

here's the rocking, the non

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verbal, the boy with the trains.

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There's such a beautiful

diversity within the autistic

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community, as there is with ADHD.

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So it's, you know, up to people like me,

and I guess other health professionals,

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to really try and recognize when

those, those sort of overflow of ADHD

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traits could be explained by autism,

and really harness that, that sort of

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understanding in a way that just It's

so validating, it makes so much more

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sense, and again, it's about targeting

those supports or treatment sort of

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strategies in a more individualised way.

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Ah, that's so interesting.

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I had a coffee date with one of my

good friends, you should have joined us

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Jacinta, you would have loved it actually.

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And she's just been diagnosed autistic.

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And we were at the park with

our kids for three hours because

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we're both on school holidays.

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So we were there for three hours.

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Our kids were actually

asking us to leave, right?

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But we were just going for it

on personal development and

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psychology and who we are as people.

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It was a.

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Great chat.

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I mean, look, when you find the

right mums that, that you really

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get you, and it's such a safe

space, it's just so therapeutic.

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I find there's nothing more therapeutic

than talking to another mum who really

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gets it, even if they're neurotypical,

someone who just really gets it.

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So, She was saying to me that, because

it was quite mind blowing for her to

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be diagnosed autistic, and she was only

diagnosed because her daughter was,

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and the clinical psych, the same one

I referred to on the farm, eyeballed

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her and said, I think you need to

come and see me as well, and she went.

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And she was saying about how,

I mean, socially, I find her

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to be amazing, possibly because

I'm diverse myself, right?

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So I don't notice or I don't really

know, but she said to me that

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she has always been quite good

socially, but she prefers one to one

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conversations in depth than a group.

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And she was wondering whether

Because she's very intuitive.

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She was actually saying whether

she wonders whether she feels the

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room, she feels the emotion in the

other person because she doesn't

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think she can't read the faces.

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It's, she gets it, but she doesn't,

she thinks it might be almost

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kinesthetic, not actually the face.

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Yeah.

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Or possibly she's just getting all

of the information in our brains

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are receiving billions of bits of

sensory information every second.

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And then a neurotypical brain.

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You know, sort of a metaphor is maybe

they have a funnel in a way that their

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executive sort of thinking part of

their brain can actually pick and choose

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which parts of that environment or that

social interaction is really important.

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So we're going to hold on to, you

know, you're going to funnel out

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the rest of it, filter out the rest

of the noise essentially, and just

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focus on the bits that are important,

but neurodivergent brains will,

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there's no funnel, there's no filter.

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They're really.

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Taking it all in, which obviously can

be incredibly like overwhelming and

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exhausting, especially if you're somewhere

where there is lots of background

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noise or music or it's really hot or

you haven't eaten in a few hours and

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your stomach's rumbling really badly.

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So it can feel really flooding.

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But I definitely, I definitely

relate to that preference, I

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think, for conversing one on one.

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I think once you start to add people

to a group conversation, those

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dynamics get a lot more complicated.

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And especially if you've got ADHD and

you've got that sort of working memory

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challenges that it can be so hard to

follow multiple sort of trains of thought

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and conversation and know when the

right like micro moment is to sort of

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jump in and participate and how much is

too much and are people interested in.

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It's just so So much information

to be sort of monitoring and

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like analyzing at any one time.

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It can make that quite taxing or

draining and I think stressful too.

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So what would be some little known

characteristics that we might see

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mums that you can't get on Google?

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Because I googled all of this

before and I was like, this is all

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stuff you can find online, right?

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But it's the new, the little things

that I really want to discuss.

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What would be some of the little things

that you can't find on Google that

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you would be looking for in a session?

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Maybe what I can.

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Give or walk you through an example of

like a very generic sort of situation.

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If a mom is in a social situation,

like you're just describing before

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Jane, and we can think about how

the nuances of say ADHD and the

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idiosyncrasies of autism might, they

might be this sort of delicate, but

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complicated little interplay of how.

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They sort of mask or

compensate for each other.

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So again, on paper or behaviorally, it

might not be that obvious, but it's, yeah,

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it's really interesting to sort of think

about what could actually be going on

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behind the scenes and how each of those

sort of conditions might be driving that.

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So if we think about like an untreated

ADHD mom, who's also got autistic.

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traits or a diagnosis of autism.

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If she is in a social setting,

she might appear like outwardly

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engaged and confident making eye

contact and participating in that

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sort of back and forth conversation

that we all think perceive as

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sort of normal, neuro normative.

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But on closer inspection, she might

really struggle with the subtleties

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of non verbal communication, such as

difficulty understanding implied meanings.

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or sarcasm.

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Actually on that note, my husband,

poor guy, gets so frustrated that

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I just don't understand sarcasm.

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I don't really get his jokes.

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I mean, they are dad jokes, but

they're probably not that bad.

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And I set up our Christmas tree the

other day and it's It's like a hundred

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dollar one I got off Amazon and

it's just all these like LED lights.

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It's basically just a rave in my lounge

room and the sensory syncing part of my

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brain is like and then he said you're

gonna you're gonna give the kids epaulets.

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C for Christmas.

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And I immediately stopped

and I was horrified.

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I looked at him.

373

I was like, that is not funny.

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Like, why would you even joke about that?

375

And then about three days later,

it finally dawned on me, he's

376

like, Oh, cause photosensitivity

could possibly do seizures.

377

And I was laughing.

378

He's like, what are you laughing about?

379

And I was like, I just got your joke.

380

He's like, yeah, okay.

381

Three days later, you know, that's

pretty good for you actually.

382

I'll take it.

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But in, so in a social situation

though, potentially if other people

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are laughing that all the HD mom.

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They'll pick up on other people

laughing and they'll join in too,

386

but they might not have actually

sort of understood the subtext or

387

implied meaning of what the joke was.

388

So it can feel sort of inauthentic

and again, it's quite taxing.

389

There's a lot of that monitoring

and analysis going on.

390

I know I've got a lot of.

391

Autistic clients or ADHD mums that

tell me there's so much planning

392

and preparation and analysis

that goes into just eye contact.

393

So even though it might look like I'm

making sort of appropriate eye contact

394

in their own heads, they're really trying

to think about how much eye contact is.

395

It's normal to show that I'm interested

and engaged in this conversation

396

versus I don't want to make too much

eye contact and sort of intimidate

397

them or, or sort of freak them out.

398

But then at the same time, direct

eye contact might be viscerally

399

really uncomfortable for them.

400

So they try to pick a point, whether

that's between the other person's

401

sort of eyebrows or slightly

off to the side of their face.

402

So the.

403

The conversational partner sort of

has experience of, they're listening

404

to me, they're making eye contact

with the other person's using a

405

whole lot of masking strategies.

406

Yeah, really complicated and distracting

ones to, to just try and behave, I

407

guess, in that neuro normative way.

408

You've probably read a lot of those

articles and in a really good blogs

409

on the internet, Jane, they talk about

how a lot of the, some of the traits

410

of ADHD and autism can be really

contradictory to each other, which.

411

It just sort of leads to, uh, a bit

of a shit show or it's a hot mess.

412

So of the most common things we talk

about and we see is how the ADHD brain

413

craves stimulation and novelty and

really doesn't like routine or really

414

rejects like scheduling and planning

too far ahead, or maybe it wants to, but

415

it just finds that really hard to do.

416

But an autistic brain is very easily

overwhelmed and overstimulated and.

417

Absolutely needs routine and sameness

to feel regulated and controlled.

418

So you can imagine that's, that's quite

a friction point between very different

419

needs for those sort of two parts of the

neurotype that that person lives with.

420

We also see a lot of overlap with

sort of sensory sensitivities and

421

executive functioning challenges.

422

So an ADHD mum might find it

really difficult to like schedule

423

in all these sort of extra

social events or obligations.

424

So if we think about all the

social events coming up, it's

425

a good context for untangling.

426

a few of the sort of similarities

and those differences between an

427

autistic brain and an ADHD brain

428

So if you've got an event coming up, ADHD

brain might really naturally struggle to

429

schedule that in, to fit that in, then to

do all the planning that goes around that.

430

It might be organizing a new outfit,

booking in a babysitter, figuring out

431

how you're going to get there and back.

432

I think it's a lot of moms that carry that

cognitive load of all that organization.

433

So that can be really stressful and

difficult, prone to careless errors.

434

But then an autistic brain might be

so overwhelmed by not having a highly

435

detailed plan that this anxiety fuels

the hyper focus on organization.

436

So the ADHD is my struggle to turn

up on time, but because an autistic

437

brain just absolutely can't cope with

anything unexpected or potentially risk

438

an awkward social entrance to the event

by turning up a bit late, then it's

439

like the autistic part and that anxiety

will fuel someone's hyper detailed

440

sort of preparation and planning.

441

So instead of turning up late, they might

actually be like an hour or more early.

442

A lot of my.

443

There's this sort of running joke where

they will tell me if there's a dinner

444

on, they'll tell me that it starts

half an hour later than it actually

445

does, because then I'll turn up on time

versus if they tell me it starts at

446

six, I'll be there probably somewhere

between five and five 30 when I'm still

447

in the middle of like witching hour

and definitely not ready for visitor.

448

And that's, because my autistic

brain is just desperately can't

449

handle the thought of things.

450

There's traffic or the parking

situation is more complicated than

451

I anticipated, or like again, a

multitude of possible deviations that

452

I just can't even fathom how I would

cope with those things in the moment.

453

So the DSMs ask about ADHD

is, are you often late?

454

But you can see in that, in that

example, there in the autistic brain

455

is does a good job at sort of masking.

456

Those sort of challenges

with organization, timing.

457

So say we've, you know, we've

got everything organized.

458

We turn up to this Christmas party.

459

Yes.

460

Okay.

461

I'm half an hour early.

462

That's fine.

463

Everyone knows me in the event itself,

obviously an autistic brain might

464

feel really anxious and overloaded and

uncertain, not knowing who will be there.

465

How perfectly the outfit

matches the dress code.

466

And for me, as we know, how long

can I cope with this annoying

467

underwire straplessness?

468

bra until I feel like I implode.

469

Feeling uncomfortable with the whole

small talk thing, what's the right

470

amount of eye contact, preferring

to hold back during interactions.

471

Cause a lot of autistic people just love

observing and sort of taking it all in.

472

And, it's that hyper

processing that happens.

473

Ideally, we have a little bit of space

in, and room to do that, without it being

474

the sort of an intense group conversation.

475

But on the flip side, the ADHD part

of my brain, a lot of other ADHD

476

brains is all excited, dressed up.

477

energetic, sensory seeking.

478

So it's really going to rally a lot of

that, that motivation, that drive just

479

to bounce around the room, approach

new people, initiate conversations.

480

That person might have a few sort of.

481

Prescripted ways of engaging in small

talk, if that doesn't come so naturally.

482

And there's certainly a lot of that

sort of analysis and awareness of

483

eye contact and, and body language

that an autistic brain might do a

484

lot of masking, compensating around.

485

So.

486

From the outside, that particular

person, there's certain flavors of

487

me in there, but a lot of moms I know

listening to this podcast, they don't

488

necessarily look neurodivergent,

whether that's ADHD or, or, and or

489

autistic, but they certainly are.

490

And they're just doing a whole lot of

work behind the scenes to sort of manage

491

how those differences might present.

492

I, I always think about that duck thing.

493

I think you've mentioned a few times, Jane

is like on the surface of the water, the

494

duck looks really calm and grounded and.

495

Chilled out, but under the surface,

those legs are going million

496

miles an hour just to stay afloat

in that particular environment.

497

Uh, and that's right.

498

That's what I feel personally a lot in

social events, but mostly, mostly social

499

events where I'm not overly familiar

with the people or the sorts of topics

500

that they would be talking about.

501

Like my husband's Christmas party with his

construction in the construction industry.

502

There's a lot of conversations that I

have no personal interest and or sort

503

of knowledge about and we all know

that ADHD brains and autistic brains,

504

their interest based nervous system.

505

So they're going to find it really hard

to sustain conversations that aren't

506

of that sort of intrinsic interest.

507

A lot of that landed with

me and my little throne.

508

It's like, Oh, this is, I do like to

arrive an hour early, wherever I go.

509

But I always thought that was

like anxiety about being late.

510

Like I've always relied

on my anxiety to move me.

511

So when people say, Oh,

are you always late?

512

You have ADHD.

513

I'm never late.

514

Ever.

515

Because I'm, like, freakishly early,

because I anticipate every single

516

thing that could happen on the way.

517

Overplan it, and then

over, yeah, and then over.

518

Yeah, so it's a difficult one, isn't it?

519

I mean, obviously not for you, because

you're a clinical psychologist, but

520

as a mum, and you're like, Well,

I'm not always late, but I thought

521

that was heavily masking ADHD.

522

I mean, jeez, it is a bit confusing.

523

No, but it absolutely can be, you're just

saying it's driven by anxiety and the

524

rates of anxiety in neurodivergent people,

especially even ADHD is significantly

525

higher than the general population.

526

So, there is a lot of running

on adrenaline and there's

527

been a lot of mistakes, right?

528

A lot of Feeling let down,

letting other people's down.

529

There's a lot of actually trauma that

goes into trying to live in a neurotypical

530

world that I think fuels that anxiety.

531

And, and there's a lot of

other factors to temperament.

532

Maybe you grew up in a family

where punctuality was a really,

533

really valued sort of trait to

quality of behavioral trait.

534

So there's a lot of other factors that

I think would influence the way that

535

someone experiences sort of these.

536

Things like time management and

punctuality and organization

537

and strategizing and so forth.

538

So I don't in any way mean to sort of

simplify it as, well, if you do this,

539

therefore you're probably also autistic.

540

It's just that in these situations,

it's like the, the autistic part is

541

actually a source of anxiety because

by definition, the autistic brain

542

really struggles to cope and adapt

flexibly in situations where something

543

unexpected happens or something.

544

You know, pulls the plan off track.

545

Yeah, got it.

546

Okay.

547

There seems to be a common pattern when

mums are getting diagnosed and treated

548

for ADHD, either as a child or an adult.

549

And then months or years later,

they start to question if

550

they then might be autistic.

551

So you mentioned earlier in

some of your other episodes

552

around your personal journey.

553

Can you share with us how that

went for you in what sequence?

554

Yeah, so I was initially, I think, I think

misdiagnosed with narcolepsy, although

555

narcolepsy and ADHD do commonly co occur.

556

But then as I sort of went into uni

years really, that was re evaluated

557

and reinterpreted as ADHD combined.

558

So I took stimulant medication on and

off for most of my 20s, which really

559

helped with those particular symptoms.

560

And then, yeah, it was quite a

shock when my ADHD psychiatrist,

561

and then I followed up with a second

opinion, actually proposed it.

562

Some of those sort of leftover

neurodivergent traits might be better

563

explained by also being autistic.

564

And even as a clinical psychologist

at that stage, I had the immediate,

565

like, fear response as well.

566

Like, does that mean I'm gonna be non

verbal, like, sort of rocking in a corner,

567

not gonna be able to progress in my,

with my career aspirations and so forth?

568

Which, of course, Like, of course not.

569

I'm me.

570

I've always been me.

571

And the trajectory sort of, as I

sort of decide that, of course,

572

that's not going to be me.

573

I am who I am.

574

I've always been this person, regardless

of whether someone's clarified the sort

575

of neurodivergent diagnoses or not.

576

So it really doesn't

have to be a limitation.

577

We just need to understand it.

578

So a lot of those sort of extra or the

leftover traits that the psychiatrist.

579

Yeah, identified for me were

the really extreme sensory

580

sensitivities, the rigidity.

581

So around like routine and needing

everything to be really detailed

582

and organized and planned to a T.

583

And again, ADHDers can be like that.

584

It's like, what happens if

things don't go to plan?

585

ADHDers can be a bit more creative

and flexible in their, like,

586

problem solving and troubleshooting.

587

Whereas an autistic brain can

be quite overloaded and shut

588

down with that sort of stress.

589

And I found, like, a lot of my

social mannerisms to evolve after

590

I The ADHD side of things were sort

of stabilized with the medication.

591

So if we think about that example before,

the ADHD masking, maybe some of that

592

social anxiety for the autistic brain

in a social setting, all of a sudden

593

the impulsivity and the restlessness

and sort of that excitability is

594

like dialed down a few notches.

595

medication.

596

So in a way it's like I lost a bit

of that armory or the masking that

597

came from untreated ADHD, at least

in those like interpersonal settings.

598

So that is a common pattern that I

see clinically is mums So, um, yeah.

599

Often, yeah, like you said before,

kids are getting sort of diagnosed

600

and parents are like, well, I

recognize a lot of those traits.

601

They get the ADHD evaluated and treated.

602

And then a few years later, they're

like, okay, well, some of that stuff

603

has sort of settled down for me.

604

But now I noticed like how awkward

I feel in social settings, or I

605

just hate small talk and I just copy

bullet and I don't have the energy.

606

Wait, that's.

607

That's just me.

608

It's like, they sort of start to see this.

609

Oh no, I did that on the weekend.

610

I circulated around a prep birthday party,

which I haven't been to any all year.

611

I always send my husband

because I hate them.

612

I can't stand them.

613

They're like my pet hate.

614

And my son said to me, mommy, you never

come and meet my friends, mums, and of

615

course that tugs at your heartstrings.

616

I was like, don't worry, I'm

going to buffer up for it.

617

I had to cancel nippers

because I couldn't do both.

618

Yeah, I had to cancel nippers

because I couldn't do both.

619

I can't, I can't actually do both.

620

That's not going to work for me.

621

So to cancel nippers, to go to this

party, and then I went there and found

622

the most neurodivergent mums I could find

because you can kind of pick out the kids.

623

Oh, that's amazing.

624

Yes, you get a reader.

625

It was terrible.

626

I felt really bad.

627

Like it's not, this is not a

very, well, actually it was

628

well intentioned, actually.

629

So I figured out who was who from

the mix, and who I'd seen at the

630

Christmas concert with headphones

on and sensory issues, clearly.

631

They had water guns, so all the,

some of the kids couldn't cope

632

with the water being shot at them.

633

And I was looking at who was comforting

them, and I was like eyeballing them,

634

like, that's who I need to talk to.

635

Then I would then go and

isolate them into a corner.

636

And we would go deep and

dark, and I had the best time.

637

I only spoke to about Three people,

but I had the best time with them all.

638

And then I said to my son

afterwards, mate, like, how

639

do you feel about this kid?

640

Really like them?

641

How about we do a play date?

642

And he's like, I don't

like any of those kids.

643

And I was like, come on.

644

Well, tough, tough.

645

You will be friends.

646

We will be friends.

647

That's, that is an interest.

648

I think it's a really interesting

thing that you bring up because

649

a lot of mums who are medicated

get that initial excitement.

650

They get that feeling.

651

They're very excited on the DMS.

652

Probably three, four, six months

later, they're messaging me again.

653

So this is such an interesting

topic because what is left?

654

What a great point.

655

Yeah, it's like the differences as well.

656

We're not, we're not looking for deficits.

657

It's the differences in the way people

communicate both in terms of the content.

658

So obviously you and I, we sort of

share a preference there for deep

659

and meaningful sort of philosophical

abstract conversational content over.

660

Discussing the weather, for example,

but there's also a difference in,

661

in the way in which you communicate.

662

So it's, it's not in a neurotypical world.

663

It's not very common just to

go the first time I've met

664

you, let's sit down and let's.

665

really pull apart this sort of existential

threads of meaning of life type of stuff.

666

But that just feels so, so right

and so connecting and so bonding,

667

especially for, I'm just going to

say neurodivergent brains there.

668

So there's those differences.

669

And again, from an outsider's

perspective, they go, no, Jane's fine.

670

She doesn't, poor girl,

she's got all these.

671

She's done all these cool things.

672

I can see her here at the party.

673

She's deep in conversation, totally

connected, paying attention.

674

Like she couldn't possibly be near

a divergent, but then once you get

675

underneath the behavior and you

actually sort of tease apart those

676

idiosyncrasies, then you go, okay,

there are some differences here.

677

So how do we.

678

Um, and I think it's really

important for us to be able to

679

better understand those differences.

680

A lot of it could be ADHD.

681

Absolutely.

682

Are there sort of leftover things

that maybe aren't so neatly explained

683

and what else could be sort of,

yeah, like influencing that.

684

And same thing for me.

685

Like, I remember before my wedding,

my husband and I was like over

686

10 years ago now, but I remember.

687

Losing so much sleep and sometimes just

randomly crying, trying to figure out

688

how I would like introduce different

like tables, like different domains

689

of friends and family from different

parts of our life, like sort of

690

bring them together in some cohesive

group where everyone was sort of

691

finding common ground to talk about.

692

And I remember my, again, my husband

was trying to convince me that

693

that wasn't my responsibility.

694

And people generally don't find that.

695

Too hard.

696

They don't need someone standing is

sort of coaching them through that.

697

And I actually really,

I didn't believe him.

698

I was like, well, how that's

so complicated though.

699

How, like, where do you start?

700

And what about if you feel awkward

and you don't want to be in the

701

conversation anymore, but you, you don't.

702

You don't know how to get out, or you're

at the same table together and you're

703

stuck there for four hours, and it's

just like, people don't generally sort of

704

think and overanalyze that sort of stuff.

705

Like, you don't, you don't

need to plan for that.

706

But then again, the autistic

part of my brain was like, well,

707

how do I not plan for that?

708

So that was, things like

that I get really lost in.

709

This is so interesting because I only

started medication, I don't know, I'm

710

trying to remember now, it would be like

the start of the year, let's say May

711

or June or something, I can't remember.

712

And we planned our wedding.

713

My husband and I, so we got,

like, we never had a wedding.

714

So he promised me if I ever wanted

to have a wedding, we'd have one.

715

So we planned it, let's say

January, December last year.

716

And it was in August.

717

So, when I, I've planned an event,

not medicated, and then I've lived

718

through the event, medicated.

719

There was a lot of questions in my mind

when I was in the event, about what was

720

I thinking when I planned the event.

721

And I think when you, when you become

medicated, and then you do change a

722

little bit, I feel like I have anyway.

723

And you're still living through

the decisions that you made for

724

yourself when you were unmedicated.

725

And there is some strong differences

around what I would have done

726

if medicated Jane had have made.

727

Yeah, and that was a really

different thing because the week

728

of the wedding, I could not cope.

729

And it was, yeah, and that was,

it was really hard because I was

730

thinking, why have I, this was me, I

planned this, but yet now I'm here.

731

I'm not feeling the way I expected.

732

It was a really interesting mix

now when you talk about, yeah,

733

medicating ADHD and then what's left.

734

Yeah.

735

That's super interesting.

736

Okay.

737

So you were talking about your diagnosis.

738

Just like getting a diagnosis of

ADHD as an adult, like many of your

739

listeners, Jane, I think my secondary

diagnosis of autism also came as a

740

mix of relief and its own challenges.

741

On one hand, understanding the

all DHT neurotype can provide.

742

a lot of clarity and self awareness and

a huge amount of self compassion, but

743

it might also bring a sense of grief

and missed opportunities for support

744

and coping strategies earlier in life.

745

Nonetheless, I think overall it's been a

huge, hugely valuable experience for me

746

to help, I guess, to, to learn about both.

747

Sort of parts of my brain and and the

unique needs I've had the opportunity

748

to be able to recognize and understand

About sort of both those neurotypes

749

that sometimes work together really

well like best friends and sometimes

750

they're like my young children

sort of brawling ripping down the

751

Christmas tree and sending my Yeah.

752

My kitchen, my lounge room

into just such a mess.

753

I feel like sometimes that the, the autism

and the ADHD are completely in conflict.

754

But again, if I sort of have that

knowledge of why I feel that way at

755

that time, then I try to ask myself,

which part do I feel is like louder

756

or those needs a lot of right now.

757

And how can I prioritize

meeting those and then reassess.

758

So an example of that process would.

759

So be at a Christmas event, if I'm really

struggling to follow a conversation and

760

I'm sort of asking questions about things

that have already been discussed, or

761

I just can't filter out the background

music and the noise and the movement

762

and everyone just having a good time.

763

But if I start to feel like that sensory

overload, then I think, right, my.

764

The autistic part of my brain really

needs me to manage that, regulate that

765

sensory input or the environment before

I could possibly do anything else that's

766

meaningful or interesting or rewarding.

767

So often that will mean that

I, I need to leave or I need to

768

take some quiet time outside or.

769

I do scrolling on my phone in the, in

the bathroom for a little bit, but my

770

husband, he's also very supportive of me

just smoke bombing, which is just like

771

just bailing without doing the whole near

normative go around the room and sort

772

of think and thank everyone Which I want

to do, and I like the value that that

773

gratitude represents, but if I'm already

at 90 out of 100 with censoring social

774

overload, then I know that's going to be

too much like you said with the nippers.

775

You just have to cut your

losses and send a text later.

776

That feels like a much more

accommodating way of dealing with it.

777

Oh yeah, there's nothing

wrong with a disappear.

778

I disappeared from my own Christmas party.

779

The other day, I, and it was

my own party, I was the owner

780

of the party, it was my party.

781

At your house?

782

No, it was at a venue in Brisbane

and I pretended to go to the toilet.

783

That's better.

784

It was, it was so funny because I was

pretending to go to the toilet and the

785

reason I, the reason what set me off

was I saw all of these people setting

786

up like those photo booths and they

had the silly hats and all of the

787

stuff and I saw them all starting.

788

And I was like, no, I

can't, I'm out, I'm out.

789

And anyway, so I walked, I got my bag and

I was like, I reckon there's a, I reckon

790

I'm either going to have to do photos

with every person here with all this

791

weird shit on, which I'm going to hate.

792

Or I could go to the toilet and I

thought I'll go to the toilet real

793

quick and go up to the Sunshine

Coast and I'll hightail it out.

794

As I'm going to the toilet, of

course, because I'm spatially just.

795

Ridiculously unaware.

796

I couldn't find the exit

because that's who I am.

797

I can't find any exit ever.

798

So I'm trying to disappear

as I'm trying to exit, right?

799

Someone comes and grabs me and

goes, you're not leaving, are you?

800

I completely denied it.

801

I was like, Oh no, of course not.

802

I'm just going to the toilet.

803

Then this lady had just seen me in the

toilet, left some things in my car.

804

Yeah.

805

She'd seen me in the toilet.

806

She saw me and I was grabbed and

I was like, Where is the exit?

807

I need to leave.

808

And she's like, you should have just

pulled this, this, the fire alarm button.

809

Like just everyone fails into the car.

810

Oh, it was so bad.

811

And then I was trying to get into

the lift and there was someone else

812

in there that I was trying to avoid

and I was out and I was in, and then

813

my husband was ringing me and I was

like, I've got to get out of here.

814

And I said, he's like, Tara,

Tara, I just had to get out.

815

And then people messaged me later on.

816

Oh, I didn't get to say goodbye.

817

And I was like, oh, I'm so sorry.

818

I just had to go.

819

Yeah, but even then it's like

we, we don't actually need to, we

820

don't need to say, sorry, do it.

821

We can actually just be really authentic

and just acknowledge the fact that I

822

reached my limit and I really enjoyed

it for the time that I was there.

823

But obviously I wanted to

quit while I was ahead.

824

And it was so good to see you.

825

It was like, that's it.

826

We can just normalize that rather

than having to be like, Oh, I'm

827

sorry, I do it in a neurotypical way.

828

Unfortunately, my two year old

is like hyper social and anytime

829

we go somewhere, he's really.

830

Drawn to wanting to like wave and

hug and interact to be picked up

831

by pretty much everyone in the

room and that that's even in Public

832

places like just going to a cafe.

833

He wants to interact with everyone in

the space So if we have any other your

834

appointments or you like Christmas

events and family do's which again?

835

I generally really enjoy but I would

prefer when I'm reaching my limit that

836

I, I very subtle exit out the back

door or whatever it is, but he will be

837

like, no, he's like the hug, hug, hug.

838

He's like very, very demanding of those,

those sort of formalized farewells.

839

And meanwhile, I'm just like

trying to hide behind a curtain.

840

So it's been like, tell

me when you're done.

841

Oh yeah, especially my kids are

huggers too, and I always stand

842

there like a board because I'm

like, I'm a non consensual hugger.

843

I'm like, you can hug me,

but I'm not gonna move.

844

I'm gonna make it really awkward because

I don't want you to hug me again.

845

Again, let's just be authentic and

just You say, cheers, I'm not a hugger.

846

My husband hugs me and I just stand

there like a bored, he's like, that

847

was, that did not feel reciprocated.

848

And I was like, well, it wasn't.

849

So, yeah, it's a whole nother

conversation, but we need to be, we need

850

to be sane advocating for ourselves.

851

Right.

852

Yeah.

853

And look, if my kids didn't want

to hug someone, I would say, just

854

say that you don't want to hug.

855

But sometimes I just feel like it's so

off putting for people to hug someone

856

that's standing there like a board.

857

They never go in twice.

858

That's just been my So what should

our ADHD mums do if they think they

859

might have autistic characteristics?

860

As we've, we've covered today, Jane, I

think it can be really tricky to tease

861

apart ADHD and autism, and especially for

people who have other sort of co occurring

862

complexities like anxiety or depression.

863

or learning disorders or dyslexia,

dysgraphia, anything like that.

864

So really don't feel like it's your

responsibility or it's your job

865

to have that specialist ability

to be able to tease those apart.

866

Yes, you can deep dive into research.

867

I suspect a lot of moms will do that after

listening to this podcast today, but don't

868

feel like you've got to figure it out.

869

And on the other side of the

same coin, I think it's also

870

important to acknowledge that self

identification is really valid as well.

871

So if you're reading more about autism,

and especially high masking or high

872

camouflaging variants of autism, and

you think, wow, there's a lot of that

873

that really does fit for me, then It's

perfectly okay for you just to build that

874

curiosity and that self understanding

and to, and to run with that.

875

It's just about what works for you

and how that, how that helps you.

876

You really only need to look into a

formalized diagnosis with a clinical

877

psychologist or other appropriately

qualified health professional if

878

you're wanting to look at supports

like NDIS or disability support

879

pension, things like that, that have

more formalized acceptance criteria.

880

So there's no medical treatment,

sort of gold standard for autism

881

because it's not a disease.

882

You don't need treatment

and you can't be cured.

883

So we got to stop looking for a fix,

which is quite a different paradigm

884

when we think about ADHD and the

very well studied, well accepted

885

efficacy of stimulant medication.

886

But autism, there's nothing like that.

887

That's sort of a pill

that can make things.

888

But if you do want to explore it with

a psychologist, if you don't want to

889

go down that formal diagnostic route,

which yeah, as we've said before, can

890

be expensive and a few barriers to that.

891

If you just want to chat about it

and peel back the layers of the

892

onion more informally, you could

speak with your GP about getting a

893

mental health care plan, a referral

to chat to a psychologist or an OT.

894

It could be.

895

Other health professionals that

hopefully have experience in, in

896

mums with this sort of high masking

neurodivergent characteristics.

897

So if you're going down the path of

using a mental health care plan, then

898

to be eligible for those Medicare

rebatable sessions, you need to have

899

some other co occurring challenges

like anxiety or mood challenges or like

900

adjustment difficulties and so forth.

901

And really, yeah, that's what I

love doing in my sessions as well.

902

It's just like really

respectfully and gently.

903

Teasing apart those more traditional

stereotype traits and then there's

904

really beautiful idiosyncratic ways that

these differences can also manifest.

905

It just, it feels like there's this

light bulb that it just keeps sort

906

of Glowing brighter and brighter and

brighter and brighter and it's, there's

907

no stopping it until obviously we all have

a migraine from fluorescent light, so.

908

But I, yeah, it's just such a nice

therapeutic way of like exploring

909

those different sort of parts of

you, of you and your personality.

910

Uh, do your own research, just like

with ADHD, get in there, there's

911

some fantastic resources out there

that I, I love, especially for.

912

The presentations, the characteristics

we've been talking about today.

913

So I think Jane's gonna link

to those in the show notes.

914

One of my absolute favorite is the

website neurodivergentinsights.

915

com.

916

Dr.

917

Krista Neff, she's a ADHD psychotherapist.

918

But yeah, if you've got questions, I'm

sure she's got a blog article about it.

919

She just writes in such a digestible way.

920

We are going to finish up.

921

Jacinta, this episode has been

fascinating, it really has been.

922

thank you so much for your time, Jacinta.

923

I'm going to add in all of Jacinta's

details and all of the information

924

that she's given on the episode notes.

925

If you have loved this, then please

send me a DM, Make sure you follow

926

us on Spotify, leave a review.

927

And you are not alone.

928

Find your community and we

will do the best we can.