Discover the Vindolanda Fort, Hadrian’s Wall, and Roman Army Museum in the United Kingdom to uncover the legacy of the Roman Empire. The Vindolanda Charitable Trust is revealing artifacts and stories left behind by the Romans. Experience the wonders of history with tour guide and storyteller Helen Charlie Nellist.

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[00:00:30] Hello there. I'm Catherine, your host of this variety show podcast. Your positive imprint is transforming how we live today for a more sustainable tomorrow through education and information.= Your own positive actions inspire change. Follow me on Facebook and Instagram, your positive imprint. Connect with me on LinkedIn. Visit my website, your positive imprint.com and learn more about the podcast and sign up for email updates.

[00:01:24] Your positive imprint. What's your PI.

[00:01:28] You are invited to discover the Roman Empire's Vindolanda Fort in the United Kingdom, where the Romans have left behind their possessions and tales. These remnants are being unveiled by a charitable trust established in 1970. The Vindolanda Charitable Trust, led by seven trustees from the Archibald and Burley families, include Brigadier Brian Archibald, Daphne Archibald, Elizabeth Archibald, Professor Eric BIrley, Anthony BIrley, Robin BIrley, and also Charles Bosanquet, the Vice Chancellor of Newcastle University, and they aimed to conduct archaeological research on this site.

[00:02:28] And the Discovered Tablet, so incredibly amazing. Today's storyteller, Helen Charlie Nellist, will enchant you with the marvels of Vindolanda, Hadrian's Wall, and the Roman Army Museum located in the United Kingdom. And, oh my gosh, these locations offer you a captivating journey of exploration if you find yourself in the area.

[00:03:02] and she's also co manager at Roman Army Museum. She's deeply committed to the past.

[00:03:22] Hello!

[00:03:41] But we, of course, want to know more about Helen and her positive imprints . Helen, welcome to the show.

[00:03:52] I'm smiling big.

[00:04:04] Thank you.

[00:04:19] area, Pendle Hill.

[00:04:30] That was something from the 1500s. So you are not just a history buff, but you love fantasy and science fiction and

[00:04:43] well, it just it makes you whom you are and our conversation there over at the museum just here recently was just so interesting and so much fun that Our tour guide who was, uh, Catherine, we're waiting, come on!

[00:05:07] And greetings from the Roman Centre of Britain. , I'm now coming at you from Holtwhistle, , which is the Roman Centre of Britain. It says it on the sign and everything. And this is the new flat I moved into on the 5th of January. , so it is my actual flat that my parents helped me buy. So it's really rather wonderful.

[00:05:26] my own, my precious thing.

[00:05:41] old Gollum.

[00:05:48] so I was just watching BAFTA, , out there and, , Andy Serkis was on that, but anyway, how did you get into wanting to do the history, the tour guiding, when you have this second part of you that's so much into the fantastical fiction part of the world

[00:06:35] Well, totally ruinous, because it came a cropper when Henry VIII decided he was going to do the Reformation and knock everything down. , basically, Gisborough Priory is now just, , a lovely big archway that's in all the, , all the Gisborough, uh,, literature. , it's the logo of Gisborough, and it's a little tunnel.

[00:07:18] , ,

[00:07:35] And he went down, and down, and down, and down, and down, right into the centre of the earth. And when he came through into a doorway, just as his, , his yarn was just about to run out, , he saw this great big beautiful cavern. And right in the middle of the cavern there was all this beautiful, crosses, and gold, and jewellery, and all the stuff that was from Gisborough Priory.

[00:08:17] and, , unfortunately lost the end of his yarn and got lost in the catacombs for all time. So this is the kind of things that I was growing up with, , all these stories about Gisborough Priory and I would picture the monks walking around. , so every time we had a time off, my mum would say to me, so where do you want to go?

[00:08:50] You've got that churchyard there right up on the top of the hill. You can watch the lights go down in Whitby and, , just get the feel for the place. , and get a lemon top, of course, every time you're in Whitby. It's very important, , for those people who don't, didn't grow up in the northeast of England and the seaside town, , a lemon top is a Mr.

[00:09:28] , and essentially it's peculiar to the North East of England, which is why when I come up here, , I miss them so much, that's the one thing that hasn't made it up to the Thumbelands yet, so, I should start a trend, really. Uh, but yeah, I basically, , grew up with all these wonderful, ruins. So when I looked in, , I looked in the newspaper one day when I was looking for a job and it said, would you like to work for Roman Vindolanda?

[00:10:07] And then back end of last year, I was lucky enough to get a lovely promotion. So me and my friend Jeanette are actually now running the Roman Army Museum, which is Vindolanda's sister site, which is about 10 minutes down the road, right next door to a lovely fort called Magna, that we just started excavating last year in July.

[00:10:35] Oh, you are just so interesting. I love that background of your mom taking you places and, oh my goodness, the,

[00:10:47] Oh, there it is. There you go. There you go. Absolutely. Well, and just, , being able to take that in and, and then, , retell those stories time and time again, , that's part of,

[00:11:14] thought of, , anything involving words, , like essays, , writing bits and pieces, even when it just comes to, , talking like we are now, is essentially it's painting with words. , you're trying to get across what's going on in here, and what's going on in there. To what everyone's seeing outside and with a bit of luck, if you just catch the right person they'll be able to sort of pick up on the same vibe that you're, you're picking up on.

[00:11:54] Well, and it's awesome, Helen, you are not at a loss for words at any time that I've ever spoken with you, so that's great. So you have just so much information to share and you, you add that flair plus when we met you, one of the things that is extraordinary about And important is that when you leave after speaking with, whether it was your tour guide or somebody like yourself who was there, and you gave some, just a little bit of information about the place, it also stays with the tourist as well, so that we can continue to spread those stories or the , like you said, , , just the understanding of history,

[00:13:00] , like yourself, you kind of want to see it as well. And, , we've already found out that, , from extensive climate change research, , drilling lots of holes in our sites, both, , both Vindolanda and Magna, uh, that climate change is actually coming a cropper on some of the wonderful items. , you'll see yourself.

[00:13:43] And it's all very well preserving those stones, I mean, stones are eternal, more or less, provided you don't get enough water on it. , but all those intimate little things , , personal thoughts and feelings, writing tablets and, and shoes and combs and, and all those beautiful things that just tell a story about people on the Roman frontier, it's just disappearing.

[00:14:26] me. My husband tells everybody about the shoes, because those shoes, how on earth, number one, we don't understand, and maybe you have insight with, , being there with the teams, but we don't understand why they were in a pile in a burial, basically,

[00:14:51] Absolutely. Yeah, it was rubbish dump, basically. Uh, if

[00:14:57] it was a landfill. Uh, we call it a midden, because it sounds posh, uh, but actually it's a rubbish dump. , which is why, , if you run a Roman site, largely, you don't bother with the, with the, , the burial sites. You, you, you want to get stuck right in the middle of the town.

[00:15:30] And, uh, where nowadays we would just say, Oh, there's a hole in this one. We'll throw them both out. , the general consensus is when you were an everyday person, you couldn't afford to do that. So what you do is you'd mend your shoe. , , we've found traces of lead, twine, all sorts of stuff. And then eventually what happens is the , the entire shoe practically falls off someone's feet because they can't mend it anymore.

[00:16:10] You can imagine it would be awkward if you were another cohort coming in and the locals had stolen the other fort that was stood up and was defending it. , so they would just raise everything to the ground. Everything would be knocked down. And of course there'd be lots of stuff they wanted to get rid of.

[00:16:29] so Vindolanda, they, all of that that was left there. So they actually tore down, the Romans, tore down much of the fort.

[00:16:41] Oh my gosh.

[00:16:55] Essentially, that's what they did. They wanted to make sure that any enemy insurgent that was coming, , to come along, wouldn't be able to make it their home and defend it so that when the next cohort turned up it was just a case of, oh look, bit of a mess, , we'll add our rubbish to it, uh, we'll cover it up with a bit of turf and clay, make sure it looks nice and flat, and we'll start again.

[00:17:34] And so you dig down a couple of metres and that's when all the juicy stuff comes out, all the organic stuff. So, so things like, , Uh,

[00:17:43] things like shoes, writing tablets, uh, combs. We even find some of the flooring, , between, between layers. So, , there'll be a nice layer of bracken or something to see what they've been putting down.

[00:18:11] , but it also meant that we can now look at it and say, well, At the end of the day, you've got somebody there who's, , using the local resources. , , up until this point, people would think that it was only horse hair that they used to make these elaborate , and essentially, now we're knowing that they're using moss that's grown in the area because it's easier to get hold of

[00:18:38] Oh, everyone goes back to their shoes.

[00:19:00] And

[00:19:05] okay? But those shoes, good grief, there was no warmth in those shoes. Those are shoes that you wear around the temples and around church. So it, it. It was incredible. And maybe that was another reason why there were so many, but they did make them so well where the, the tightness around the heel was so close and tight, like moccasins

[00:19:58] , on the, , looking after your feet. , basically the most wonderful thing is they've actually, they've actually spotted that in some particular cases the, the build up of the, hobnails, uh, are actually more prevalent on one side of the foot. So if someone favours one side to the other, maybe, , they've got a certain gait, , it would basically be, be, , the nails would go in there just to give that extra bit of cushioning.

[00:20:22] That is, that is it, just and then the coins, I couldn't believe some of the coins and how they have lasted through history. And, , the shields. I mean, so much, this museum is incredible. And it was through the determination of

[00:21:02] , but the Vindolanda Trust really started when, , a young chap called Eric Burley took a liking to, , the whole Hadrian's Wall idea. And, , he basically was, he was going to put a bid in for Carabra, which is Broccolicia, temple just down the road from, from where Vindolanda is. , but rumour has it that there was, , a couple of local labourers in a pub that was having a painting as he was, , Scoping the joint to see which one he liked to look of, , who said, well, we've been, we've been excavating, well, digging Vindolanda, , to put in drains and we keep finding these altar stones and all this amazing stuff.

[00:21:52] And then, of course, when Robin met Pat, , and, , she shared the passion as well. And that was then passed on to the very lovely Andrew Burley, Dr. Andrew Burley, who's now our, , trust, , Not only the CEO, but also Director of Excavations is a busy lad, uh, and his sister Sonia, , and then of course that then got passed on.

[00:22:31] , it's, it's going to keep going for years and years to go and considering that the, uh, we've, we've got an estimated of hopefully 150 years more at the Vindolanda, , site, , to keep digging. We've just gone into the final quarter, , in April, the, , third century fort. , so we've got five years of that and then who knows where that's going to go.

[00:23:06] By the trust, , they look after me very well for, for all sorts of things when it comes to paying my mortgage and stuff. But there's very rarely places on your day off where you would actually voluntarily say, Well, no, I'm going to go back and I'm going to go back to the scene of the crime, so to speak, and, and do a guided tour for free.

[00:23:51] I'm walking on the same pavement that these shoes walked on, but who was it? And then you start reading the writing tablets and they're talking about, , , I know I'm setting, I know I'm setting up this fort in 85 AD, 40 years before the wall, but where are my turnips and cabbages? And, , will you come to my birthday party?

[00:24:10] It is, oh my gosh, that museum the fort everything Hadrian's wall. There is so much to see. There's a lot of signage

[00:24:26] that feel, don't you? You

[00:24:28] you know, the ghost of the past walking around you. It's magic. Hehehehe

[00:24:37] Old Sycamore Gap, , as featured in Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves, uh, hehe, but yeah, the Sycamore Gap, , it. It would have broken us, it would, , but fortunately there was something better. It galvanized us all because not only were the locals absolutely gutted, gobsmacked, enraged, , but people around the world started talking about it and, uh, and of course Our tourism shot up.

[00:25:24] Uh, sycamores, of course, the, , the Celtic, religion believes that the tree of life was a sycamore and it's because sycamores are longevity and you cut them down they'll, they'll grow back stronger. A bit like Groot from Guardians of the Galaxy. So yeah, essentially, , we already know that she's already starting to sprout, so that's good.

[00:26:05] Apparently there was a Middle Eastern archway that was bombed heavily, and they lost the Middle Eastern archway. And they put out this mass email around the world to say, look, if anyone had stood behind this archway or stood underneath it and pointed and, , taken photographs of it, would you send me your images?

[00:26:38] my gosh.

[00:26:50] , for, for us, I mean, we not get to see her as strong and tall as, as we'd like to see her, because obviously we're not all immortal. Uh, but we might catch a more squid adolescent phase, possibly.

[00:27:04] Yeah, so we didn't get to see it .

[00:27:18] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:27:22] So now with Vindolanda and then going over to Hadrian's Wall. So first, give us a little, , tour of Vindolanda. Number one, where it's located.

[00:28:02] So basically, smart emperor that he was, he decided instead of conquering, conquering, conquering and conquering, it was about time that he just kind of said, right, we've got lots of things to protect, build those walls, which is why he put up the German liens as well. , and keep, keep our assets safe. , so that was, that was great.

[00:28:44] We don't know what the Romans called it. , that falls in quite nicely though with our absolutely amazing Tungrians that set up our first fort. , they were an auxiliary cohort from Belgium, , under the command of a guy called Julius Vericundus, and it was their job to put some, put some nice sturdy forts up along the Stangate Road because they wanted to make sure there was a nice military presence and also the needy places for people to rest up because it's a long walk from Corbidge to Carlisle.

[00:29:39] And essentially, , they, they kicked the tribe off and they did the typical Roman thing. They kicked him off. , they moved in, they built the first fort out of wood, and they called the place Vindolanda, which means white lands or white plains. So whether it was a vegetation or just basically because it was Northumberland so it's blooming cold, , they got that lovely white land feel to it.

[00:30:12] We had, we had French guys by that point, , the Gauls, and, , they would have probably stayed on with their families, which they'd have raised up on the, the Roman frontier, because by that point they're not getting any wages, , they know that they're, they're busy down in Rome with the Visigoth, and all that stuff so he was going to come up and track them down.

[00:30:54] We've been digging up beautiful chalices with, , with, , Christian, , iconography on it. , so, of course, it was starting to get a bit worn, was the force, and they were starting to become easy pickings. So, essentially, , What happened was the locals just went, what, it's not worth it, pick up sticks, we'll move into the valley, and it can just do its thing.

[00:31:21] what? of fun history. So the, you talked about them being protected there in the fort, of course, how many persons are we talking? ,

[00:31:58] Roughly about the same size as Hexham. , and then of course, eventually, you would, , it would start to dwindle, and it would come, , , come down for a couple of thousand, to kind of about the size of Holt Whistle, where I now live. So, imagine all those merchants, women, children, soldiers, civilians, , animals, all up and down that one concourse at Vindolanda.

[00:32:37] , there's actually a documentation about 1823. I think it was, , they actually did a small excavation of the force, , on the sort of. sort of south quadrant and managed to find a rather gorgeous, , commanded officers residence. They said there was hypercourse systems, that's the underfloor heating, , they said there might have been plaster on the walls, there were altars, it was absolutely gorgeous and it would have been absolutely amazing to see.

[00:33:19] knocked the whole thing down. The whole of that beautiful bathhouse is now lost to the ages because one farmer decided, Nah, I've had enough of people walking round. So we're not expecting to find many structures at Magna. , we're more interested in the actual little items that's going to come out of the ground basically.

[00:33:37] Yes, we've actually got the extension in full swing.

[00:33:46] Yes, they found a lovely sort of wheel of it. And, , we haven't actually found any full ones because I think with us being a kind of, , very frontier orientated place, , getting resources would be difficult. So they would try to make do and mend as much as they can do, which is why we tend to find lots and lots of broken ones.

[00:34:34] , we found a full cavalry sword with bits of scabbard attached to it, wooden scabbard. , they must have left in a real hurry. , so, I wouldn't mind betting that was when the Batavians were told they had to clear out pretty sharpish. And it kind of ties in with our lovely bonfire site where we found all those lovely writing tablets.

[00:34:53] Well, if it's, , basically if it was right under the floor and it did tie in with the writing tablets, you're talking about 100 AD. , we know the Batavians were there because we found a lovely writing tablet that talks about, uh, , 18 of the big stropping guys from Holland, , or the Netherlands. , actually, basically building our bathhouse that's on the, the far side of the site.

[00:35:40] And of course, it's the only place on the entire site that actually bore some actual Roman concrete. So those guys did a really good job. Can't tell I'm a bit of a Batavian fangirl, can you?

[00:35:50] Yeah, we did see that one and, and it is incredible that things have held up. I mean, We're, we're talking a couple thousand years. So it's very incredible and it's also, it's fantastic that people like yourself and everybody that has come in since the 1800s who had a foresight to say, Hey, you know, we, we want to learn about this time period and try to preserve what's down there.

[00:36:35] , which meant that basically it would have come all the way from the Black Sea, , in, , because that's where the boxwood grows, the box trees. Uh, and essentially it would have come all the way through, , sort of Salmatia and, and Germania, and worked its way up the country to, to get onto the commanding officer's, , table, hopefully, for his, for his turnips and, and cabbages, because when they actually tested the, the, the actual residue in it.

[00:37:03] Okay.

[00:37:34] So yeah, have a look on our website because it's a lot of free stuff that you can play about with even before you come visit us.

[00:37:40] And essentially you should find this thing that says Virtual Vindolanda.

[00:37:45] I think there's one that says Virtual Collections. If you click on Virtual Collections, there's a thing called Digging Up Memories. And essentially, , it's got three, three or four different columns, things on the move, , that kind of thing.

[00:38:14] Even if you're, , sat over in the States, or in India, or Australia, , you can see our collection, but up close and personal, which is lovely.

[00:38:29] It went on a heck of a journey. Let's put it that way.

[00:38:33] And you've got, I mean, I mean, they had a huge, great , you know, merchant chain that went right the way around all the, all the corners of the empire. So, you were getting pepper, and you were getting opiates, and silk, and all the amazing things, , all turning up.

[00:39:02] So use your moss on a stick, , reuse and recycle. And, uh, what was it, my friend Pat says you wouldn't find a sponge growing in the Tyne. Yes, because we've got climate change on the cards.

[00:39:30] hmm.

[00:39:32] underfloor heating. Aqueducts,

[00:39:35] you know.

[00:39:40] There were people that had this, this type of discovery, this usage before them. But the Romans are the ones that put it into use in a large. system, uh, as we know as the aqueducts now, which we still use today and have copied.

[00:40:21] No, but, , they were allowed to fraternise. Basically, the general theory is that, especially once it got to later occupation, all these guys were more or less actively encouraged to take a local lass, because in the eyes of, , of the local population, you're less likely to revolt against a brother in law or a son in law.

[00:40:59] And, , the general theory was, we'll post you as far away from your mum and dad as we possibly can do, because if you revolt, we're going to really want to make you. and dessert, you're going to have to really work for it. So, so, I mean, we had the Nervians and the Gauls from France. We had Vardoulians from Spain, , Rations from Germany.

[00:41:37] So imagine coming from Syria and ended up at, and ending up at Hadrian's wall where it's blowing a hooli and, , and there's, there's nobody that speaks your language, but I mean, they were, they were a victim of their, their own success because apparently there were crack shots. , so that the giant.

[00:42:09] , I mean, if we find writing tablets and those sets of people, how cool is that? .

[00:42:22] ,

[00:42:22] To learn more about vindolanda, go to vindolanda.com. That's V-I-N-D-O-L-A-N-D-A and the Roman Army Museum. Roman army museum.com.

[00:42:50] The Vindolanda Combs, presented by Barbara Burley.

[00:42:59] Thank you so much for listening and supporting this podcast.