Shownotes
- How the Church has gotten so far away from the discipleship Jesus practiced.
- Causes of the present “discipleship crisis” we’re experiencing in the church today.
- How preaching a “small” and often false gospel has led to where we are at.
- 10 Key areas of false belief that we need to start changing...now!
Each week the Big 3 will give you immediate action steps to get you started.
Download today’s BIG 3 right now. Read and think over them again later. You might even want to share them with others…
Thanks for Listening!
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Transcripts
If the church keeps doing what it has been doing for decades in connection to Disciple making, we will continue to see a decline in Christianity in our time.
Heath:Hmm.
Heath:Yeah.
Heath:The stats say that too.
Heath:I've seen reports
Caesar:because when we began to believe a small Gospel that was man centered and focused on our afterlife in heaven.
Caesar:While we just kept attending church, trying not to sin here on earth.
Caesar:We lost the one true mission of the church make disciples.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:There's no better time than today to start changing our minds, getting some equipping, changing the church and starting to change the world in light of what Jesus commanded us to do and promised us he would do with us.
Caesar:Right?
Heath:Yeah.
Heath:He didn't even tell us to go to church every Sunday or to read a Bible every week or to like go to
Heath:church.
Heath:Literally go, those words never came out of Jesus.
Caesar:No, and this isn't, that's not.
Caesar:Please go be with the church, but make disciples.
Caesar:The building's not a church.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Make disciples.
Caesar:Yeah.
Heath:Welcome to the Everyday Disciple Podcast where you'll learn how to live with greater intentionality and an integrated faith that naturally fits into every area of life in other words, discipleship as a lifestyle.
Heath:This is the stuff your parents, pastors, and seminary professors probably forgot to tell you.
Heath:And now here's your host Caesar.
Heath:Kalinowski
Caesar:all right.
Caesar:How you doing today?
Caesar:I am feeling more rested than I have in a really long time.
Caesar:And that's because I think I've been sharing with you.
Caesar:I've been getting some back to back vacation.
Caesar:Not like week after week after week, but in the last several months, we're kind of catching up after two years and nothing given what was going on in the world.
Caesar:But last week I was able to do an amazing trip on a boat, uh, through the San Juan islands, up here in the Puget sound.
Caesar:If you've never seen the Puget sound in the Pacific Northwest, it's, it's all saltwater whales and seals and porpoises and all that stuff.
Caesar:It's like God drug his hand up hundreds and hundreds of miles up into the main land.
Caesar:From the coast.
Caesar:So it's all saltwater, but it's real flat.
Caesar:And we went from island to island, stayed at different ports, ate different food, fished, collect oysters, and ate those.
Caesar:It was amazing.
Caesar:And, uh, it was pretty darn restful.
Caesar:I sent a picture of myself on the trip to Tina and.
Caesar:She was like, I don't know if I've ever seen you look more rested and relaxed.
Caesar:It was amazing.
Caesar:And that's kind of how I felt.
Caesar:I gotta be honest with you.
Caesar:So I'm feeling pretty good.
Caesar:I hope you're doing pretty good.
Caesar:Hey, I'm also guessing you're looking toward another ministry year, depending on when you're hearing this.
Caesar:If you're hearing it right when we're dropping this episode, you're probably looking toward another ministry year getting started and wondering what will be different.
Caesar:Or how you'll start to move the needle when it comes to your discipleship systems and reproduction.
Caesar:Am I right?
Caesar:And if you'd say to me, well, the problem is my people.
Caesar:They don't have time in their schedules for discipleship and outreach, or you're feeling tired and frustrated with trying to get your people to do more or what they should be doing.
Caesar:We'd love to help you.
Caesar:So if, if you're interested in learning a full framework for discipleship and.
Caesar:If you want to grow in your Gospel, fluency, all that stuff and help all your people do that.
Caesar:Be it starting with your family or your small group or your whole entire church.
Caesar:Love to do that.
Caesar:Let's set up a short zoom call.
Caesar:Get to know you a little better.
Caesar:Can answer any questions, tell you all about it.
Caesar:Just head on over to every day.
Caesar:Disciple dot com slash coaching.
Caesar:And we'll talk a little bit more about the coaching today on the podcast, but we'd love to help you out if you're interested and I'll bet you are, or you wouldn't be listening to the podcast, right?
Caesar:so today we're gonna look at a bunch of false beliefs and misconceptions, bad practices, and faulty church tradition connected to discipleship, and really the way that the church in the west over the past 50, 60, or more years has understood it.
Caesar:And how all that has shaped our lack of discipleship or the present discipleship crisis.
Caesar:That we're experiencing in much of the church today, or at least I keep hearing it called that.
Caesar:And we might poke a couple bears along the way today.
Caesar:Some of those things that we tend to hold so sacred, cuz that's how we've always done it.
Caesar:So we're gonna do it anyway.
Caesar:There's a lot of talk about the need for discipleship these days.
Caesar:I'm glad for that.
Caesar:And some much needed renewed focus on micro groups and such.
Caesar:But too much of that is unfortunately just, I think refurbished small groups.
Caesar:When I sit in on the webinars and I talk to people about what they're doing, they're all excited and it's really just still pretty inward self-focus and not the level of true change and momentum toward making disciples who make disciples in everyday life.
Caesar:That's really.
Caesar:. And so what I wanna talk about today is changing your mind about discipleship or helping change other people's minds like your elders or staff, who knows.
Caesar:I, I, I think there's some serious key issues that need addressing and until we believe differently, we won't really start to make the changes that we need to make.
Caesar:Take a listen as Heath and I get into 10 misconceptions that we think need to be.
Caesar:we were talking ahead of time and you've kind of broken this down into like a list of things that we really need as leaders and even just as Christians.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Mm-hmm to change our mind and our practice yeah.
Caesar:About when it comes to discipleship.
Caesar:So maybe we can get into that with
Caesar:your first thought.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Okay, great.
Caesar:So here here's a bunch of things on the list, uh, that we need to change our minds about concerning discipleship and some of which we've probably touched on before, but I've been running into these same challenges a lot over the years and a lot.
Caesar:Like, it's not getting that much better.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:So I wanted to talk through a few and they're not in a perfect order or based on importance, like hierarchy or whatever perfectly.
Caesar:I mean, I tried to kind of put 'em in some logical order, but, but they're all I think pretty important.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:So here's the first one.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:There are not, and this is something we gotta change our mind about.
Caesar:There are not two different classes of Christian, meaning there are believers and then there's disciples.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:Hmm.
Caesar:There should be no difference in what it means to be a believer or a disciple so that's like, we, we gotta believe that see true believers or followers of Jesus will seek to increasingly live his life for his glory and for the glory of the father.
Caesar:Right?
Caesar:Yep.
Caesar:So to say, you can be a Christian or like he's a believer, but he's not a Disciple.
Caesar:That's false.
Caesar:I just don't see that in scripture, but we wanna, we wanna kind of say, well, but that's just the reality of it, man.
Caesar:Well, that's, that comes from a small little false Gospel.
Caesar:See if we think the Gospel is, say a prayer, get outta heaven.
Caesar:Sin management until Jesus gets back or we die and go to heaven.
Caesar:Well then guess what?
Caesar:Then people could say, well, that that's a Christian cuz he said the prayer, but yeah, no, they don't really follow Jesus to try to live like him or make other disciples.
Caesar:That'd be like a fish saying, you know, I choose to believe I'm a fish.
Caesar:Like I've, I've invited fish into my heart, you know?
Caesar:And I wanna benefit from all that.
Caesar:It is being a fish, but I never go into the water and I, I leave that to other people.
Caesar:That's just goofy, I mean, that's not goofy the best analogy, but that's goofy.
Caesar:We've gotta believe that.
Caesar:So we've gotta start looking out across our communities, across our churches and going, you know, what, if they confess Christ, then they, they are disciples and they, they get to.
Caesar:Like, you know, they get to make disciples.
Heath:Yeah.
Heath:And even Jesus, right?
Heath:Like if you claim to be a follower of Jesus, he said to go out and make disciples that wasn't an optional thing.
Heath:No, like you
Caesar:have to be a Disciple.
Caesar:You say, well, what about all the rest of the crowds?
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Well, he thinned them constantly because when he called them to lay down their whole life, very few followed.
Caesar:And he even said to his disciples, Hey, listen, the road is super narrow.
Caesar:Yep.
Caesar:And most will not.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:You're right, right.
Caesar:And they'll go back to religion.
Caesar:It's the easy thing to do.
Caesar:Yep.
Caesar:It is.
Caesar:So, anyway, here's the next thing I think we gotta change our mind about, and it kind of follows this last one.
Caesar:Discipleship flows out of our God breathed identity.
Caesar:Hmm, not out of religious obligation in activity.
Heath:Yep.
Heath:You're right, right.
Caesar:Like until we start thinking of it, it's like, well, no, like you're supposed to, you're supposed to make disciples.
Caesar:And so like, all right, I gotta get through these classes or whatever.
Caesar:Like, no, we are a family because God's our common father.
Caesar:We're missionaries because we have a missionary God who sent a son on a mission who then challenged us and commanded us to go out and make disciples where servants like Jesus.
Caesar:That's what it means to be a Christian.
Caesar:That's what it means to be a Disciple.
Caesar:We're a family of missionary servants now sent as Jesus disciples to make more disciples of Jesus.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:That is who we are.
Caesar:And I've said that phrase a zillion times before on the show, but we've gotta change our mind about that.
Caesar:Discipleship flows out of identity, not out of religious obligation.
Caesar:Yeah,
Heath:it's beautiful because when it flows out of, uh, obligation, we're too busy.
Heath:Like it's not, you know, like when you have to do something, it's like good luck.
Caesar:That leads right back to the last one.
Caesar:Well, yeah, I'm a Christian, but I don't really have a lot of time for that.
Caesar:Like, I mean, you know, probably when I retire or something who knows, right?
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:No identity.
Caesar:It changes everything.
Caesar:Oh man.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:Uh, third one discipleship is a life.
Caesar:Not a set of classes and it takes time.
Caesar:Yep.
Caesar:Like we gotta change our mind about that.
Caesar:And I, you know, I know a lot of people right now are going, yeah, man, you're right.
Caesar:It, yeah.
Caesar:It's not a set of classes,
Heath:but most churches are structured to have like a set of class.
Caesar:Like if they it's
Caesar:even do, if they do, if they even do right.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Even if they do so, um, Disciple ships, a lifestyle and, and by the way, it reminds me, um, we did a two parter, which we don't do that often, but we, we did a two part episode creating the right discipleship, environment.
Caesar:And it's really, I do remember that.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:And so go check out both parts, one, and two of that, it's called creating the right discipleship environment.
Caesar:And if you just want to Google it, just put that in.
Caesar:And, uh, part one and part two are in there and it really goes through like, what did Jesus lifestyle look like?
Caesar:And, and that's why he was able to make disciples that went on to make disciples and change the whole world.
Caesar:And we're still here talking about it, right?
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:So we gotta make that shift.
Caesar:Discipleship is a lifestyle, not a set of classes, which means it's gonna take.
Caesar:Yeah, sorry.
Heath:Well, I remember being growing up in the church and hearing like, well, how else are you gonna be discipled if you're not here on Wednesday night?
Heath:Like, well, if it's just happening on Wednesday nights, it's probably not discipling for sunny.
Heath:Right?
Heath:Yeah.
Heath:It's, it's so much more than that is.
Caesar:Well, and here's number four.
Caesar:See, they not a bad order.
Caesar:These are kind leading into each other.
Caesar:Uh, gotta change your mind about this.
Caesar:Discipleship does not happen effectively from just hearing sermon.
Caesar:What , you know, it's just one more sermon and we would be the most like mature body of people in our whole city would be changed now.
Caesar:And I don't wanna say that sermons have nothing to do with our discipling, because if the gospel's being proclaimed and it's helping us move from unbelief to belief about things.
Caesar:That's a part of it, but it won't happen just through sermons and even the best preachers I think would tell you that.
Caesar:And I've known some really famous and I still do, and really smoking preachers, but they would say, yeah, that's not really discipleship.
Caesar:You know?
Caesar:I mean, it's a part of it.
Caesar:God uses that.
Caesar:Certainly he uses that and I love preaching, but.
Caesar:Discipleship does not effectively happen just from here in sermons.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:And if that was the case, if it was now, there's this thing called the internet and there's a zillion great sermons on it.
Caesar:So problem solved.
Caesar:Right.
Caesar:Problem solved.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:But it's not, and we're going the wrong direction.
Caesar:Okay.
Heath:Yep.
Heath:You're right.
Caesar:All right.
Caesar:Number five.
Caesar:And I think I got 10.
Caesar:Let me just go.
Caesar:This got 10.
Caesar:I got 10.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Here's number five.
Caesar:Discipleship is not like a one-on-one activity.
Caesar:Hmm.
Caesar:You know, some people are like, well, you're right.
Caesar:I gotta get back to it.
Caesar:It's one-on-one I gotta find somebody.
Caesar:No, like, let me tell you discipleship doesn't happen.
Caesar:One on one.
Caesar:To maturity.
Caesar:Sure.
Caesar:A aspects of it just like parenting, you might say, well, you know, like, do you do everything always the five of you Tina and the three kids?
Caesar:Hmm.
Caesar:No, not always.
Caesar:Sometimes I'm just with my son.
Caesar:And well, do you ever talk about the Gospel and try to Disciple him the gospel's heart?
Caesar:Yep.
Caesar:We'll see there.
Caesar:Well, I'm not saying it can't, but it won't happen to maturity.
Caesar:It has to be in community.
Caesar:It takes the body of Christ to make a mature Disciple.
Caesar:Here's why, and maybe I've said this before, but there again, this is one of those changes of mine is discipleship's not one to one.
Caesar:So don't say, well, ah, I'm gonna get our church is going after discipleship.
Caesar:And we're gonna start this whole new one on one, you know, discipleship program.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Well, it won't go very far because here's the thing.
Caesar:No one person's Jesus.
Caesar:Hmm.
Caesar:So if, if let's say you're just coming to faith and you and I are pals, and so you and I hang out a lot for the next two or three years.
Caesar:Sure.
Caesar:And we're going through all kinds of books and everything.
Caesar:Who are you most gonna resemble spiritually in the next three years?
Heath:Probably you
Caesar:probably me.
Caesar:And though that might help in the sense, right?
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Like you're learning some stuff and, and moving from, I'm not Jesus . Yeah.
Caesar:And you know me well enough to know, like God's still working on you, bro.
Caesar:Sure.
Caesar:Right.
Caesar:It takes all the different body parts coming to bear all the different.
Caesar:You know, gifts and experiences and maturity levels and all and perspective and all that.
Caesar:Right?
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:And here's the other thing.
Caesar:It takes the Gospel in community together, out on mission out of our comfort zone to really become mature without the Gospel.
Caesar:We're not gonna become mature disciples.
Caesar:discipleship doesn't happen.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:That's an easy one without community.
Caesar:One-on-one I'm not Jesus.
Caesar:I just talked about that.
Caesar:And without living out on mission of making more disciples, well, then we don't like, what are we Gospeling like, it's easy to say, like, man, look at this guy.
Caesar:He's so holy he's just sitting there in silence.
Caesar:There's coffee in the back donuts.
Caesar:He's taking notes like a, like a on fire, you know?
Caesar:No, it really takes living out on mission together in a community to.
Caesar:move To maturity.
Caesar:So until we change our mind about that one, yeah.
Caesar:In a lot of places, that's, that's like their highest thing is like everybody win one.
Caesar:You know, it's like, uh, sorta no.
Caesar:Now where does one to one discipleship have its uh, I think value in community.
Caesar:As you identify People of Peace in your life, those people who are leaning into relationship, you put an arm.
Caesar:You get 'em under wing to make sure they're connected to community.
Caesar:Yep.
Caesar:Don't let 'em drift away, right?
Caesar:Like sure.
Caesar:You're gonna have times with 'em alone, but your best thing you can do for them is get 'em connected to the body connected to a community that's Gospel centered.
Caesar:Absolutely.
Heath:That's, that's something I'm really passionate about too, because if you look at way at the way, most of the Eastern like world, the Eastern church does community.
Heath:Yeah.
Heath:The west is really huge on this, like my personal walk.
Heath:This is between me and God.
Heath:Yeah.
Heath:And you're like, that's just not the way that it was ever
Heath:practiced originally.
Heath:Yeah.
Heath:Going to hiding study the book.
Heath:No, it was, I've always done in community.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Well, and it was, that's how Jesus learned the word.
Caesar:That's how Paul learned the word, you know, as humans.
Caesar:Right.
Caesar:He was the word, but still as a man, Jesus was taught, right?
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:There's a boy growing up and all that temple, all.
Caesar:So, um, okay.
Caesar:Number six.
Caesar:Uh, another one we have to change our mind about, discipleships not a passing on of doctrine and knowledge about the Bible.
Caesar:Hmm.
Caesar:So all the deep Bible studies in the world don't necessarily equal discipleship.
Caesar:because we all know that point.
Caesar:We've sat in lots of Bible studies and no one's living it.
Caesar:No one's out discipling anybody.
Caesar:No, one's serving anybody.
Caesar:They're not living outta their identity.
Caesar:Um, cuz you know what, it's not Bible literacy that we should be going after.
Caesar:It's gospel fluency that, say that again.
Caesar:It's not Bible literacy that we should be going after knowing lots and lots and lots of Bible.
Caesar:It's gospel fluency.
Caesar:It's the ability to speak and live and proclaim the good news into every area of life.
Caesar:Cuz remember discipleships that process of moving from unbelief to belief in every area of life.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:And so just Bible literacy and knowledge alone.
Caesar:That's not discipleship.
Caesar:Hmm.
Caesar:But true discipleship.
Caesar:You're gonna learn and live out all kinds of scripture.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:You know?
Caesar:No you're right.
Caesar:But we gotta make that shift.
Caesar:Because still so many people are like, oh, we just gotta get more Bible than people.
Caesar:That's the problem.
Heath:The church I came from yet, that was the same way.
Caesar:And it was like, no, but I'm not saying don't teach the Bible, please.
Caesar:Don't anybody hear that?
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:I'm not minimizing even.
Caesar:I'm just saying that's not Bible.
Caesar:That's not discipleship alone.
Caesar:Otherwise you just see, like, what did Jesus do for three, three plus years with the disciples?
Caesar:They just sat and read the scrolls, baby.
Caesar:no.
Caesar:It was life on life, right there, again, go back to those two episodes on creating the right discipleship environment.
Caesar:And it gives a whole bunch of the Disciple environment of, of Jesus and what that really, really looked like.
Caesar:That's right.
Caesar:Yeah, man.
Caesar:Super, super important.
Heath:Yep.
Heath:All right.
Heath:Let's keep moving.
Heath:This is good.
Caesar:All right, man.
Caesar:Uh, number seven, discipleship is living your life as if Jesus lived your life.
Caesar:Not You get to live your best life now and fit in a little religious activity or attendance when it fits.
Caesar:Hmm.
Caesar:And I don't think too many people would disagree with that, you know?
Caesar:Sure.
Caesar:Like, like, oh, I thought these were things we have to change our mind about.
Caesar:Yeah, we do.
Caesar:You know why we need to change our mind because we put up with it.
Caesar:Hmm.
Caesar:And that kind of goes back to an earlier one.
Caesar:It's like, well, but there's two kinds of, you know, Christians, there's those who've said the prayer and they kinda just hang out and no praise, God they're saved, but then there's disciples the serious ones, you know, it's the 80 20 rule or whatever.
Caesar:It's like, no.
Caesar:And, and, and so we, we get to expect.
Caesar:By the power of the holy spirit, that, that we will increasingly live our lives as if Jesus was living it.
Caesar:Yep.
Caesar:There's a great quote out there.
Caesar:I couldn't find it today, but , but, um, there's a great quote about that and it's, it's not just assuming well, and, you know, they said the prayer and, uh, and you know, they're out building that American dream and live their life.
Caesar:And, you know, they kinda show up that the average now is 1.7 times a month.
Caesar:And, and, uh, you know, when it fits, you know, but yeah, they're not really involved in community that much, but, you know, yeah.
Caesar:That's just kinda how it is these days.
Caesar:Now discipleship is living your life as if Jesus lived your life.
Caesar:Guess what?
Caesar:He was focused on.
Caesar:It wasn't like building his business and getting the best house did no one, one didn't have a business.
Caesar:You know, it was.
Caesar:His father's glory and helping people understand and live in the kingdom and then pass it on like, like, like make disciples and teach 'em everything I've taught you live with.
Caesar:'em the way I did.
Caesar:Right.
Caesar:Help.
Caesar:'em obey all this stuff and live this out.
Caesar:That's life in the kingdom.
Caesar:That's where they're gonna have their best life now.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Let's believe that Jesus lived the best possible life of any human ever did.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:And let's, let's expect that's what God's doing in their life.
Caesar:And let's not settle for them.
Caesar:Just sort of living their best life now and fitting it in a little.
Caesar:No, we good news.
Caesar:Yeah, you're right.
Caesar:It is.
Caesar:It's it's for all.
Caesar:All right, man.
Caesar:Let's keep moving.
Caesar:A lot of these number eight discipleship is the only mission Jesus gave the church.
Caesar:We gotta change your mindset.
Heath:Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Heath:you
Heath:mean it's not the, uh, the dream plan and the, and the, the massive budgets and the everything else.
Heath:New sound systems
Heath:lighting
Heath:better children's program.
Heath:Better bus
Heath:ministry.
Heath:Yeah, the new wing.
Caesar:No, it's not.
Caesar:And there again, a lot of people are gonna, like, I don't need to change my mind.
Caesar:I believe that discipleship's the only mission Jesus gave the church.
Caesar:Well then does your budget reflect that?
Caesar:Does your calendar, does your staff's time reflect out in the lives of tons and tons of people making disciples?
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:No it doesn't.
Caesar:Yep.
Caesar:I let's come on very few.
Caesar:I'm not saying nobody, so I'm not sure.
Caesar:Like I said, I don't mean to be poking people in the chest, but right.
Caesar:See, discipleship's the only mission Jesus gave the church because it's always been a part of God's eternal purpose to fill the world with his glory.
Caesar:Which is what he's like.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:What's exactly.
Caesar:And who's exactly the glory of the father.
Caesar:Jesus.
Caesar:. Yeah.
Caesar:If you've seen me, you've seen the father, Jesus is the glory of God.
Caesar:And if the, if the eternal purpose is to fill the world with God's glory, in other words, Jesus.
Caesar:And so disciples of Jesus living his life with his spirit, that's how the world get filled, gets filled with God's glory.
Caesar:So that's why duh, no kidding.
Caesar:The discipleship would be the only mission Jesus gave the church.
Caesar:We've gotta change our minds about.
Caesar:And we gotta quit giving it sort of a nod and like a programmatic side of it or, or something, but, but really cuz we got bills to pay.
Caesar:It's about getting enough people into this building and you know, eing out the 3% of 'em that'll tie.
Caesar:And so we can pay the bills.
Caesar:I mean, we.
Caesar:Every there's great implication here.
Caesar:mm-hmm there really, really is.
Caesar:So if we just put that up, just put that up on the wall, you know, um, challenging my brothers and sisters who are leading others and working for churches, or just even leading community discipleship is the only mission Jesus gave the church.
Heath:Yeah, you don't need a sexy slogan.
Heath:That's that's beautiful.
Caesar:Just one thing you can call just, and like, and like look at your calendar and go like, okay, this is the only mission we got.
Caesar:And that leads perfectly into this next one, number nine.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:Discipleship's not the job of one person or one department in your church.
Heath:That's so good.
Heath:Okay.
Heath:It's not, you don't just pay your pastor to do it.
Heath:This is all hands on deck,
Caesar:you know, you know, or, or the person who's like, you know, the director of discipleship ministries.
Caesar:Like, and I know a lot of people you're going, that's my job, you know?
Caesar:Or I just hired somebody like that.
Caesar:Well, good, good on you cuz you're trying to move the right direction.
Caesar:But if pastors and elders and all of your staff, et cetera, are not living this as a lifestyle and priority themselves.
Caesar:Well, this is never gonna change.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:You can't say, well, we're all busy running the program over here.
Caesar:So this one guy's gonna help other people go out and make disciples.
Caesar:No, no, no.
Caesar:The only mission of the church we just talked about it is to make disciples.
Caesar:And so discipleship, can't just be.
Caesar:one Person's job or one department.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:I mean, that's just goofy.
Caesar:That's stupid.
Caesar:I've used the analogy before.
Caesar:Can you imagine like, uh, you own a Honda car dealership and uh, what's the whole mission of the Honda car dealer.
Caesar:Sell Hondas , you know, right.
Caesar:Take care of Hondas, repair them, you know, but sell and sell Hondas.
Caesar:And you're like, yeah, well, you know, there's the guy whose job that is.
Caesar:But, uh, the rest of us, it's something else.
Caesar:Like, what are you doing?
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Eh, well, you know, like we work on the lighting and like making sure the, you know, the coffee's made and the chairs are set up.
Caesar:Right.
Caesar:And lighting's just right.
Caesar:And we move the cars around a lot and we talk about how cool it is to drive.
Caesar:In fact, every week I talk about how awesome driving Honda.
Caesar:You know, but do you sell in any?
Caesar:No, no.
Caesar:That's, uh, we hired a guy sales manager.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:He doesn't like, but you know what?
Caesar:Sales manager doesn't drive a car and he doesn't like, he doesn't like Hondas, particularly like what?
Caesar:No, but he says, there's a guy that does and works here.
Caesar:Like what?
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:It's so backwards.
Caesar:No, like we gotta change our mind about it.
Caesar:Discipleship's the only mission period.
Caesar:Yep.
Caesar:And it's not one person's job.
Caesar:Okay.
Heath:That's so good.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:And here's number 10.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:Maturity in Christ will only come.
Caesar:from disciples, making disciples.
Caesar:Like if you wanna be a mature Christian, you gotta get into the game, you gotta make disciples.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:And, and I just share that from experience, cuz I spent a lot of years studying and listening to sermons and doing all the classes and, and you know, signing up for, you know, all the programming and really all that.
Caesar:It wasn't until we really got into.
Caesar:And started living this life and making, and I'm talking about even as a pastor sure.
Caesar:That like discipling each other and the, the life on life and the, the sanding down of my fear and my preference and my selfishness and all that.
Caesar:Like you, there's no way to mature, like living in a Gospel centered community on mission.
Caesar:There's just not.
Caesar:There's not, if you wanna be mature, make disciples.
Caesar:If you wanna have a church that's mature Disciple people and mature disciples make disciples.
Caesar:That's right.
Caesar:So don't say, well, our church is pretty mature.
Caesar:That's a there's there's couples that are super mature.
Caesar:You know how I'll know if they're mature, they're making disciples.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Don't don't tell me you're mature.
Caesar:Disciple.
Caesar:But I don't make disciples.
Caesar:You couldn't be that's impossible.
Heath:It's impossible.
Heath:You just you're neglecting
Heath:the very thing Jesus told you to do.
Caesar:yeah, absolutely.
Caesar:Yeah,
Caesar:absolutely.
Heath:You, but it, it does seem like people and pastors and church leaders will really need to wrestle with the implications of changing their beliefs and connection to, to each one of these,
Heath:right?
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Because in everybody's context, how they specifically work out these 10.
Caesar:If they change their mind on 'em there's like you said, there's great implication.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:That's gonna be important for sure.
Caesar:And, and it's gonna be very easy to hear this episode be slightly offended nod for most of it feel like, well, we're, we're tackling a couple of those, you know, and not make a whole lot of change though.
Caesar:You know, you know, be, or we're gonna, you know what, I'm gonna up my promotions on Sunday for our 1 0 1, 2, 1, 3 0 1 and 4 0 1 Sunday school classes, you know, gotta get it done, you know, but like I said earlier, if the pastors, elders and staff are not living this as a lifestyle and a priority themselves, this is never gonna change.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:I, I recently, uh, saw a, a set of statistics that blew my mind.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:And, and, um, it was crazy.
Caesar:Um, they.
Caesar:Um, this organization, um, interviewed and poll a whole bunch of, uh, leaders, church leaders, and pastors.
Caesar:Right.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:So, so here's the statistics.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:Churches who identified training people to Disciple others as the most significant area of breakthrough they had in the previous year, 20% of churches poll said that.
Heath:Like, what are, what the heck are you other 80% doing?
Caesar:I know, right?
Caesar:I know.
Caesar:But outta 10, but the 20 said yeah, the most significant breakthrough we had was in, in actually training equipping people to Disciple.
Caesar:Wow.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:48% of church leaders who identified training people to Disciple others as the biggest growth opportunity for their church.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:So half of leaders said, yeah, our biggest growth, 48% said our biggest growth opportunity.
Caesar:Is discipling training people to Disciple, you know?
Caesar:Wow.
Caesar:And second place wasn't even close according to, to the statistician.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:Geez.
Caesar:And then church leaders who believe that receiving training themselves is the most important next step for taking their discipleship process to the next level.
Caesar:51%.
Caesar:God.
Caesar:Now see that doesn't that one doesn't surprise me.
Caesar:Now.
Caesar:It surprises me that 51% of pastors.
Caesar:Hey, my biggest leap of growth and taking my church and discipleship to the next level is gonna be me receiving training.
Caesar:And you know why that doesn't surprise me too much is that most, most people who are pastors were never discipled.
Heath:That's true.
Caesar:They went through seminary, head knowledge.
Caesar:Yep.
Caesar:And, and most people tell you've been through seminary.
Caesar:I'm one of them.
Caesar:Yep.
Caesar:Uh, I didn't learn a whole lot about Disciple making.
Caesar:no, you know, it was more how to run a church.
Caesar:Sure.
Caesar:You know what I mean?
Caesar:Maybe how to preach or whatever, be a Sunday school or worship leader or youth guy or whatever.
Caesar:And, um, and, and I, and I love that because that's, that's more than half that say.
Caesar:It's a priority for me to receive training myself and you know what?
Caesar:I don't, I don't, I don't wanna shame anybody.
Caesar:It, our church didn't exist.
Caesar:When most of us here in this today, we weren't raised in churches.
Caesar:Even if you're pastoring where you were Disciple, where the Gospel touchdown in every area of life.
Caesar:And how to speak it and live it.
Caesar:And it was a lifestyle.
Caesar:Sure.
Caesar:Right.
Caesar:And people saw your life and how was I trained?
Caesar:How was I Disciple man?
Caesar:I was with people.
Caesar:I saw their parenting.
Caesar:I saw their marriages.
Caesar:I saw 'em fighting, forgiving Gospel in each other's hearts.
Caesar:That's how I learned.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:And I did some seminary, you know.
Caesar:Great.
Caesar:Sure.
Caesar:But no most didn't.
Caesar:And so, you know, that's why, that's why we've given so much of our time and life to coaching.
Caesar:You know, Tina and I, it's the best thing we do, you know?
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:I love the podcast more now.
Caesar:no, I love the coaching we get to do.
Caesar:And I know that the folks we coach listen to the podcast as well.
Caesar:I love you guys.
Caesar:It's the greatest privilege we have is to help you Disciple, help Disciple you, but in ways that are reproducible.
Caesar:So, and I'm, and we're watching you make disciples to make disciples and change your churches.
Caesar:Change your neighborhoods little by little.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:And it's it's happen.
Caesar:I just, I have to say if there's any interest at all, in being part of that 51% of leaders, church leaders who feel like that receiving training themselves is their most important next step.
Caesar:Please check out the coaching that we offer.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:Just in a little while here, we're gonna be, you know, starting up some new cohorts.
Caesar:And even if you're hearing this, like, whoa, I don't know when this was recorded.
Caesar:We're always coaching.
Caesar:All you have to do is go over to everyday Disciple dot com slash.
Caesar:And that'll take you to a page.
Caesar:It'll kind of explain what we do and you'll fill out a little thing to see if it's a good fit.
Caesar:And if we want to talk and, and see if it's a good fit or not, it's not good for everybody cuz we're serious and coaching require.
Caesar:Some effort.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:There's some action items there.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Right.
Caesar:So anyway, if you're interested at all 1, 2, 3, life, school.com/coaching, I would love to have you now we don't have tons of spots because we can only coach so many people and,
Heath:and the way you guys coach is, it's not like, Hey, see, next week don't contact us.
Heath:It's touch.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:You're I mean, you see my phone blows up all day with Voxer messages.
Caesar:I love.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:It's my favorite part of the day.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:What's going on?
Caesar:These are like our family.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Like, so like, I want you to be a part of the family.
Heath:awesome, man.
Heath:You get to
Caesar:all right, let's wrap it up.
Caesar:Big three.
Caesar:Yep.
Caesar:And as always, we wanna leave you with the big three takeaways from today's topic.
Caesar:If nothing else, you don't wanna miss these and you can get a printable PDF of this.
Caesar:Week's big three.
Caesar:It's all typed out for you as a free download by going to everyday Disciple dot com slash big three B I G three
Caesar:. All right,
Heath:caesar.
Heath:What are the big three for
Heath:this week?
Caesar:All right.
Caesar:Here's the big three.
Caesar:Don't miss these first one.
Caesar:If the church keeps doing what it has been doing for decades in connection to Disciple making, we will continue to see a decline in Christianity in our time.
Caesar:Hmm.
Caesar:Yeah, the stats say that too.
Caesar:I've seen reports because when we began to believe a small Gospel that was man centered and focused on our afterlife in heaven, while we just kept attending church, trying not to sin here on earth, we lost the one true mission of the church.
Caesar:Make disciples.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:There's no better time than today to start changing our minds, getting some equipping, changing the church and starting to change the world in light of what Jesus commanded us to do and promised us he would do with us.
Caesar:Right?
Caesar:Yeah.
Heath:He didn't even tell us to go to church every Sunday or to read a Bible every week or to like go to church.
Heath:Literally
Heath:go, those words never came out of Jesus' mind.
Heath:No,
Caesar:and this isn't, that's not.
Caesar:Please go be with the church, but make disciples.
Caesar:The building's not a church.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Make disciples.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:All right.
Caesar:Number two.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:Number two.
Caesar:God's eternal purpose has always been to fill the world with his glory.
Caesar:What he's like his essence and love.
Caesar:So the grand mystery of the ages, Paul said it was the mystery revealed is that he always planned to do that.
Caesar:Filling the world with his glory through disciples of Jesus.
Caesar:Filled with God's own spirit, making more disciples of Jesus all over the world, every nation, every state, every city, every neighborhood, tribe, and tongue.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:And you know what, we get to be a part of the fulfillment of God's eternal purpose.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Like what??
Caesar:Like.
Caesar:We gonna waste our lives, what chasing the American dream die.
Caesar:And it's we leave it all to who knows what come on or the whatever, whatever country you live in.
Caesar:You.
Caesar:I know I've talked to other people, like we don't call it the American dream, but we call it the, the Swedish dream, you know?
Caesar:Sure.
Caesar:The Norwegian dream life or whatever.
Caesar:That's crazy.
Caesar:all right.
Caesar:Here's number three.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:Talk through these, these 10 shifts in thinking with, with your church leaders or staff or a community, like if you're bold enough, like, yeah, right.
Caesar:Like I'll put all 10.
Caesar:In with the, with the, uh, big three.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:Li or listen to the episode, you know?
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Right.
Caesar:And pause it or whatever.
Caesar:And, uh, you know, do that right.
Caesar:And decide on what the implications are for you and your people.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:Remembering that discipleship starts at home.
Caesar:The leader's home and moves outward from there.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Okay.
Caesar:Get into a coaching relationship to learn how to be a Disciple, you know, how to be a Disciple making church or leader.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:You know, chances are, like I said earlier, you've never been discipled in a way that the Gospel spoke into and transformed every area of life.
Caesar:So don't stay stuck.
Caesar:Be humble, get some help.
Caesar:And again, I, I would love it.
Caesar:If, if you know, I could be your coach and, and again, Tina and I coach as couples, because if you're gonna do this at home, you gotta be doing as couples.
Caesar:Sure.
Caesar:I mean, we have some people we do singles now and then, you know, or someone's like, well, there's just no way I can do this with my spouse, whatever, but it's so rare right now we almost only do, and we prefer to do couples.
Caesar:So again, if you wanna just at least check it out, see what's.
Caesar:You know, and I know it's easy to fluff it off.
Caesar:Like, I don't have time for that.
Caesar:It's like, that's why we don't have disciples making disciples, you know?
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:Or like, oh, it costs something it's not free.
Caesar:You know, people literally email me hammering me.
Caesar:Oh, I gotta pay.
Caesar:I gotta pay to be a Disciple.
Caesar:No, you don't have to.
Caesar:But if you don't know how, where are you gonna get it?
Caesar:And if your church, if you don't know, you know, I don't know.
Caesar:Yeah.
Caesar:So check that all you gotta do right now and don't blow it off.
Caesar:At least take that first step and check it all out by going to everyday Disciple dot com slash.
Caesar:And you'll get all the details and maybe it's a good fit.
Caesar:And we would love to be your coaches and we'll help you live this life and help you see others.
Caesar:Make disciples who make disciples you can.
Caesar:We get to, it's not a mystery.
Caesar:We'll show you how well that's it for today.
Caesar:Thanks again, Heath.
Caesar:I love you, brother.
Caesar:Please join me again right here.
Caesar:New episodes every Monday.
Caesar:And we'll continue to make discipleship and Missional living a whole lot simpler together.
Caesar:I'll talk to you soon.
Heath:Thanks for joining us today.
Heath:For more information on this show and to get loads of free discipleship resources, visit everyday Disciple dot com.
