In this episode, Jane interviews Nikki Johnson, an HR consultant and ADHD mum diagnosed at 45 years of age. Nikki shares her personal journey with ADHD, discussing the challenges of disclosing ADHD in the workplace, legal protections, and the potential risks and benefits.

Nikki explores her struggles with time management, impulsivity, RSD, and the impact of ADHD on her career and personal life. She shares about how important the environment of the workplace is regarding true inclusivity and the flexibility to accommodate the changes needed.

The conversation emphasises the importance of open communication, advocating for neurodiversity, and seeking support, aiming to provide understanding and guidance for other mothers facing similar challenges.

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Welcome to the ADHD mums podcast, a safe place for everyday Australian

mums to discuss their struggles with ADHD, motherhood, and life.

Hello, and welcome to the next episode of ADHD Mums.

Today we have a HR consultant, Nikki Johnson, here with me.

How are you Nikki?

I'm good.

Thanks, Jane.

How are you?

Good.

Nikki has very, generously given her time to talk about a really tricky

topic, which is ADHD in the workplace.

Small background on Nikki.

She is a HR consultant who supports small business owners and business

leaders in Australia in all areas of HR.

Her passion is people and working to make sure that the business and the leaders

are equipped to support their employees to be the best version of themselves.

Top it all off.

Nikki is a ADHD mom.

She has two kids and she was diagnosed with ADHD last year at 45.

Just revealed my age.

You write it in the bio.

I just read whatever I find.

You could say she likes to say this and, you know, weird shit.

I just read it out anyway.

So Nikki, before we jump in, because obviously I'm very

excited to get into the content.

We get lots of questions about this all the time.

I just want to do a really small background around, how

you were diagnosed with ADHD.

You know, and you know how that felt for you just to like get a bit of

an idea of who you are before we jump into just picking your brain.

so I've always thought that my son had ADHD probably from about three when all of

a sudden he just started attacking me and my husband was like, no, no, it's normal.

It's normal.

And then You had a guest on before and she was getting these

A DHD things coming at her.

Oh, and I was the same through So through social media?

Yeah, yeah.

Through through social.

Yeah.

And I'm like, why am I getting all this?

And I kept researching more and I kept hearing about, A DHD

in girls and what it was like.

And then I went on attitude and I went through the test and I

was like, holy shit, this is.

I've got ADHD.

I haven't got postnatal anxiety.

I haven't got postnatal depression, which is what happened when I had kids.

I just went into an absolute spiral.

and I was a mess all the time.

I just couldn't keep my life in order.

In check and I had a, breakdown I think my son was a year and a half, and I was six

months back in the workplace and I just I started crying one day and I couldn't

stop and I didn't go back to work.

and then I ended up having to quit my job and at that point

I was told I had PTSD from a.

traumatic birth experience.

and this pattern was repeating.

Like I was on that verge again after having my second

child exactly the same point.

And I did lots of research and I went to see a psychologist who

specialized in that area and she recommended I see their psychiatrist.

And I started looking into it more and still now I'm like, Oh, that was my ADHD.

All right.

Yeah.

Okay.

That was my ADHD.

So I have massive RSD.

So I'm rejection sensitivity dysmorphia, 100%.

I used to leave jobs because someone gave me feedback, like normal feedback.

And I'd walk away and go and tear up my job.

I'm going and I'd leave.

so my career has been up and down impulsive behavior.

Yeah.

Shopping debts, the whole lot.

at school, my mum, when I had to go through the questionnaire

with my parents, my mum was like, no, you were the easy child.

And I said, okay, so what about homework?

Oh, you didn't do it.

What about projects?

Oh, you start them.

She was like, do you remember your year 10 project?

She started this amazing elaborate design on a dress.

And one night at 10 o'clock you went, Oh, that'll do.

I'm bored.

I'm done.

And it had to be in the next day.

So my mom sat up till two o'clock in the morning, finishing it.

So it's just, it was all those kinds of patterns and stimming and

things that she thought was normal.

My dad 100 percent has ADHD.

My brother's autistic.

Like we are from a neurodivergent family.

So they just saw that as, Oh, this is normal to dress my 16 year old and

get her out the door to go to school.

it's like

so

jarring when you know that you're not normal because actually it's like

your whole family, if you're from a neurodivergent family and then a therapist

starts like picking at like one of your children and saying what's normal, what's

not, you're like, no, that's normal.

And they're like, no, it isn't.

And then you're thinking, oh my God, my whole life in childhood,

there's no one normal that I know.

And then you don't even realize.

It's anyway.

So it's so hilarious.

So, say one of my friends has ADHD and I was at her house and, I needed a Panadol

and she just passed me a tablet and it actually turned out to be a Dex, which Oh,

and they do look similar.

Yeah,

yeah, And I just, I was like, Oh, everything's gone quiet.

Like I just feel focused.

Like it was such a different.

it just made me realize that, okay, all these anti anxiety tablets

that actually made me feel worse or hyperactive, like I remember taking

Zoloft and being sat in the car and going, I need to get out of the car.

I can't sit here any longer.

I just, I don't run, but I want to just run.

Where is that?

It just, the anxiety went away.

Like it just went, my thoughts in my head and the overwhelm of just doing life.

went.

So that spurred me on then to go, okay.

Well, so it would.

And then you know what?

Why don't people listen to this podcast that don't believe

that ADHD is neurological?

Okay, cool.

So if it's not neurological, why would somebody have a reaction like that,

that's very consistent to a lot of other people, myself included, and then they

have to go, get a diagnosis, right?

Because they actually know.

And they can't then be gaslit or told because they've had

this reaction to the drug.

I mean, I was really lucky.

The psychiatrist I went to see was late diagnosed ADHD, as well.

She was beautiful.

The night before I had my appointment, I found all the paperwork that was

supposed to do, completed it, didn't do it right because it was, I was tired.

I'm like, I don't know what it means.

Hadn't read the questions correctly.

thought, why are they repeating these questions?

But then I realized later, I realized it was asking the childhood

one, not like me to repeat one.

Oh my

God.

Don't you love it?

Like the ADHD ride on even going to the assessment, like there's so

many people that have come on and been like, I got there really late.

I had the wrong office and all this flurry of activity, right?

And then I remember actually when the psychiatrist said to me, okay, now

I need to call your husband and had said that they wanted to talk to him.

but you know, a neurotypical person would have organized that.

I'd organized that.

So I thought I'd been really efficient, but I told him the wrong time.

So then the psychiatrist called him and there's all this background

noise and I can hear it on speaker.

And then my husband's going, I don't know.

What did you mean?

She told me it was in an hour.

I'm at the gym and he's going, I'm doing a set.

And it's like, the psychiatrist is just like, and then he

goes, Did you organize this?

I said, yeah, but I think he has ADHD too.

So like, I don't know what's happening.

And then he's just, he's just going, okay, well, that's just

ticked a few boxes for me.

This whole scenario with you and your husband.

Yeah, it's so funny, isn't it?

so for my husband, he filled out, so we just got the questionnaire

that I had to give to my parents and give to, my husband.

And as I was going through it, my parents were going through theirs and because they

didn't see anything different, I kind of had to coach them and say, okay, let's

think about, read this question and let's think about some different scenarios.

What was I like?

And they were like, oh, right, always.

whereas my husband.

And he's like, you're not very impatient.

You seem okay.

And I was like, so all those times when you're getting annoyed with

me, cause I'm trying to get into the sink while you're washing up.

Cause I want a drink.

Do you, what do you think now?

And he was like, Oh, Oh yeah.

Like you're always jumping into conversations when you shouldn't.

You're always.

But if like your husband and your family members are also neurodivergent,

a lot of that can be normal.

Okay.

Cool.

Yeah.

For them.

Yeah.

They don't

realize it's an issue.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And that's the challenge, isn't it?

she was amazing.

I spoke about university.

I spoke about as much as I can remember as a child, even interests.

Like I used to love dance.

I was very good at it, but my mom had to force me to go every day.

And when I was there, I'd frustrate everyone because I'm do or die.

And I would just stand there and walk through the actions.

And then it would come to exam time and I'd smash it.

And then it would become to show time and I'd be like, and they just go, who

is this person on stage or in the exam?

It's so frustrating.

I look back now and just go, Oh, what?

And I, and when I did finally get the diagnosis and, she started me

straight away on 30 milligrams of Vyvanse, we talked about a dental

appointment that I had text messages about that was supposed to have

booked like six or seven months ago.

And she said, Oh, maybe we should start you on the 40 milligrams

because she thought I was.

I was like, no, no, I'll start.

Cause I was nervous.

I was like, I'll start it low.

we started on the 30 and I took my first five ants on a

Sunday and went food shopping.

And it was just.

I cried, I, I actually cried in the supermarket because I was like,

Oh, there's someone in front of me and they're taking ages and I'm

not getting really angry at them.

And I'm not overstimulated by all these people talking about

what they're trying to get.

Whilst I'm also trying to focus on my list and what I need and, I

came out and it wasn't a hot thing.

Bundle of stress.

When I walked out the doors, I was actually singing them happy, listening

to my music and just like wandering through the shops with my Charlie

thinking, wow, this is so different.

And then for work, I was terrible at procrastinating.

I still no good with projects with no end date.

Like that's really hard for me.

But I can now focus like there's a massive difference.

I notice we've talked to you've talked about PMS and

how it affects like medication.

I do notice just about 10 days before my period.

I really struggle.

again with focus.

And it's so frustrating because I'm like, why am I on Instagram when I

should be focusing on this piece of work?

Yeah.

And then you like have it too.

So you've experienced focus and then it's like taken again and you're like, what?

Yeah.

You know that you can operate better.

Whereas before it was like, Oh, that's normal for me.

it's a real journey.

I think when you get a late diagnosis, you really go on the, change curve.

I don't, most, you probably all know about it.

Yeah, you massively, yeah, you go down denial.

Then I was like, Oh, am I really, am I going to get found out that

I'm not, is this really who I am?

And then.

You get into a bit, I got into a bit of a rabbit hole and I kept reading all these

Instagram things and all these people's negative comments about addiction and

the drug and then I started to like.

The anxiety would kick in at nighttime and everything and my

overthinking would happen and I'd be like, Oh no, what am I doing?

No, I'm just an addict.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

or, you know, maybe everyone has this reaction and I'm just

now addicted to pills because I can't vote because I'm crap.

I think we've all, we've all been there.

I don't think I've ever spoken to anybody who said that they just took

it in their stride, took the meds and didn't really do any self reflection or

massive overhaul identity wise worry.

Yeah.

I think that's part of it.

Yeah.

It's a big deal.

and then I think about, you know, I, I did go on a journey with, well, what

could I have been if I'd, I wouldn't have had all this debt that I got into.

maybe I'd have actually got a decent degree rather than messing around and

probably would have had more confidence because I was told I wasn't very clever,

but It wasn't that I wasn't clever.

It's just, I wasn't focused on listening and you know,

at university, I did nothing.

and it was at a time where there was no internet and it was all reading books

and photocopying from the library.

Yeah.

And for my dissertation that you do in the UK, I went backwards and forwards,

couldn't decide what title I, what I wanted to do my dissertation on.

And then two days before it's due, I pull all nighters and write 9, 000 words.

Oh my God.

and I got a degree, and I just think, how did that, how, obviously I'm not stupid.

it's just bizarre though, because you think a neurotypical person could never

pull that together 48 hours before due date, like they could not do that.

But it's also not what you should do.

Sorry.

No, it's not.

It's not.

it's like, I am a person at work that in a crisis just goes, Oh, yeah, I can do that.

And I will spit out probably four or five hours work in half the time and I will

be pumped and I'll be like, give me more.

because that's what I thrive on that adrenaline and that need to just

get shit done and under pressure.

Yeah, or I go into complete paralysis, but most of the time,

it's dependant on It's hard to know.

It is, but which way are you going to go, isn't it?

I think in a real crisis, I do.

Like, my kids go to run across the road and I freeze and

I don't Someone else's kid.

I'm like I don't know what, what it is, but

well, it's, they talk about, high levels of emotion, decrease

intelligence immediately.

So if it's your own child, I assume that just pure fear immobilizes you.

That's what happens to me.

Although I'm bad in any crisis.

Like I would be like a small child would be more helpful than I would be.

I just panic, just sheer panic.

I think it was one of my kids split their head open the other day.

It was my five year old, and then Gigi, my eight year old, I had

to go to the hospital, right?

Now, I knew he was okay.

I knew he wasn't going to die or anything, but I knew they had to stitch his head.

And I was just, like, sweating.

I was a wreck.

My daughter had to, calm me down and tell me to breathe because

I was, like, couldn't cope.

And then we got there and she goes, I've been looking after mom and it's been hard.

To my husband, I was, like, Oh my God.

It's really an absolute shit fight.

Anyway, let's move on.

Okay.

ADHD at work.

So what would be, a lot of people ask constantly, and I think it's like

the RSD in ADHD where you start to take a conversation personally and

then you like ruminate that maybe you've, disclosed ADHD and then,

you don't know, it's a whole thing.

So what would be the major risks of disclosing ADHD or a

mental health condition at work?

So, legally,

there is no risks.

You're protected.

And I think the only risks I could think of and come up with are what you

mentioned is your RSD, it's your own personal thoughts and feelings about it.

or you've got a workplace that doesn't understand it, doesn't

want to understand it, or someone that thinks it doesn't exist.

so I think it's more on a, it's more the personal journey or the

person that you're working with.

speaking to and how they react is the risk over actual protections

within the organization.

You reveal it and you're protected by the Discrimination Act.

It's listed as a disability within the Discrimination Act.

And as soon as you disclose that you have a mental health disorder,

ADHD, autism, you are protected.

by the Discrimination Act and your organization, the people that you

work for have to make reasonable changes to your working conditions.

They have responsibility

to

do that.

Wow.

Okay.

I'm just loving this.

Could we, go through like a quick example of someone that they're of

a reason why you would disclose and how that could work out positively?

obviously it's a personal choice.

And it depends on your job, and it depends on what's going on for you and your job.

Personally, I disclosed straight away, as soon as I went on the journey, I've

disclosed that I work in a very safe, secure environment for an amazing person.

But I have seen it go wrong.

it might be things like, I think about my past reviews when I was undiagnosed,

and I would always get feedback that my prioritization skills are terrible,

my time management skills are terrible.

Or, Think about what you're writing in an email.

Don't be so impulsive.

I didn't know I had ADHD, so I'd work on it.

But if you do know, and it just gives you that open opportunity to

turn around and say, I have ADHD, and this is how it shows up for me.

These are the changes and this is the support I need.

I feel overstimulated in the workplace some days because of the

noise or I need focus and I can't get that and the lights are too

bright and there's too many smells.

You know, all the things that might trigger your overstimulation.

I have RSD.

If you turn around to me and say, can I have a minute, my

head goes into, oh shit, what?

What have I done?

What have I done?

Why do you want to talk to me right now?

And it's probably positive, but that's just can happen.

Saying to someone with ADHD a lot of the time, have you got a minute to chat?

It's probably the worst thing.

So I need context when you want to talk to me.

another way is by explaining, I suppose, if you do have issues with finishing

projects, trying to work on different ways that your leader can support your

strengths and support your weaknesses.

what can work really well as well is working as a team.

So if you've got team members who are really great at doing projects, and you're

the person that comes up with the ideas, be that person that initiates everything.

And then someone else can take on that work.

So it's just trying to look at what's going on for you and how you That business

can support you because that way, you know, that you're going to do a great job.

There's less likelihood of any kind of underperformance coming up because you're

aware of where your weaknesses lie and then you can get support from your leader.

what can happen is.

You can make excuses for your ADHD, like you're rude to people or generally

just aggressive within the workplace.

this is where the challenge can be, because you you can't

really blame and victimize.

You have to be responsible for your actions and apologize and

try and find ways to change that.

But a workplace also has to protect.

people from that kind of behavior as well.

and what I've seen a few times is, and this is more, males with the impulsive,

aggressive, And hyperactive behaviors they can get quite hyper focused and

find themselves getting into a hole.

And if they've got a very dominant, strong senior leader, it then becomes this fight.

Yeah.

And it's not repairable.

Because ADHD people don't want to be told and they will hold

stubborn a lot of the time.

So wow, that would be a bad combination.

Yeah.

So look, majority of the time it goes well and it has to go well because,

They have to make reasonable changes, there's so many, parts of Fair Work

and the Discrimination Act, as I mentioned before, that protect you

because it's listed as a disability.

so another.

thing that happened this year.

It's been so many, employment law changes.

Sometimes it's really hard to keep across them at the moment.

in December, 2023, Work Health and Safety Act changed and psychosocial hazards

was included as part of the WH& S Act.

so it's not just about now having a physically safe workplace.

environment to work.

It's about having an emotionally safe environment, and that means looking

at job demand, having job descriptions and expectations set so you're clear

on exactly what you need to do.

So there's no ambiguity about what I need to do and things that might create stress.

And it's also about having an inclusive.

environment where people feel safe to come to work and happy to come to work.

And again, reasonable adjustments need to be made.

in New South Wales, for anyone that's in New South Wales, Black Dog Institute,

we're doing free training on this, on the new psychosocial hazards, and

along with how to address mental health in the workplace and how leaders can

have those conversations and also.

How to have those conversations with your leader as well.

that's a really good positive change.

I also think after COVID, there's been a real blur now between home and workplace.

So many people were working from home.

They had kids home, they'd be on meetings and kids would be in the background.

and it just created this situation where work is now almost an extension

of Yeah, that hasn't been good.

it has been bad, but What's been great about that is people have been able to

start bringing their whole selves to work.

I mean, I worked in the nineties and two thousands, and I remember being told, Oh,

you'll never get far in this business.

You're way too dizzy and, overbearing.

You need to calm that down if you want to be someone in this business.

And I remember all of a sudden coming into work and being serious.

And then that kind of bled into my personal life as well.

So I was a different person in work versus home.

Whereas now I feel that offices are bringing in this whole, you can be you.

Yeah.

I hear you.

I hear you.

Yeah.

Cause then that's got such a massive toll.

If you have a work personality that you must put on part time, full time.

Yeah.

And then that's not who you are, but that's who you

think you're supposed to be.

And then you have to take that on and off.

That's weird.

That's really hard actually, when you put it that way.

Yeah.

And that's what it's like, I suppose, if you're not disclosing

your ADHD as well is that.

if you're hiding and masking, how stressful can that be for you?

if you're spending your whole day pretending to be someone you're not.

that's where it's depression, anxiety.

Lives, that's where that lives.

Long term masking.

I think you said before that you had been diagnosed with PTSD and postnatal

and a lot of people, women that are diagnosed with ADHD have three to

four other diagnoses before that.

And then it's like a mixing pot.

You don't actually know what's what at that point.

we've got some positives of disclosing.

I think they're great.

you talked about the legislation differing in each state.

Have we finished on that question, or did you have more to add?

in regards to each state, the legislation's pretty much the same

across the board for most employees.

Work health and safety has different legislations within states, but the new

ones, the majority of the actual you have to do is pretty straightforward.

There might be some, yeah, there might be some extra protections, but nothing less

than what's Australia wide standards.

It's probably the best thing to explain.

there's been a little bit of speculation within the Facebook group around if

you have ADHD, is it better to be in a large company or a small company?

Got any thoughts on that?

I don't think.

It has anything to do with the size of your company.

I think it's more to do with the culture.

Because you can have a large organization that has inclusivity officer.

He walks around and goes, okay, we need to change all this.

And this is what we've got to do, which is great from a company perspective,

but not everything that they will come up with or do like dimming

lights or having a quiet space is going to be suitable for everybody.

Everybody's an individual.

and I think if you have a great leader who will support you and understand

and a company that's even open to neurodivergence training, there's a

number of organizations now that do mental health and neurodivergent training

on how to, help and support people and your employees with neurodiversity.

also how to remove bias around that too.

So if you have a company that's open to do that, or even a leader, that's just

open to understand it, to work with you and support you, then that's what matters.

It's about working in a safe culture where, you know, you can be open.

I suppose one of the things I thought about the other day is that if you

work in an environment, drug tests, and you are taking the medication, it is

so important that you disclose that.

Because if anything, if you were pulled up for a random drug test and

you've tested positive for amphetamine, then you're having to backtrack.

At least they know prior that

That can come up.

And then it can kind of sound sus kind of after it a positive,

Oh, I'm actually got this script.

It's like, Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a great point.

it's just something I thought about the other day, but I mean, working

in consultancy, we have loads of stuff that comes up on a regular.

On a regular basis, all the weird and wonderful things of HR come our way.

I'm going to keep going with some questions in the Facebook group because I

love the questions that people write in.

If you're not in the Facebook group, you should jump in because I often

say what guest is coming up and then people like to comment, which I love.

It makes my life easier.

someone said, if your boss is really nice.

and they really like you, does this help?

So I suppose this is interplay around my boss doesn't like me.

My boss likes me.

Does it help?

Then you've got people that write in and go, well, it shouldn't matter if they

like you or not, but does it matter?

I think it's more about your relationship.

I think I've mentioned this a few times.

It's about being safe.

if you don't have a great relationship with your leader or your manager or your

boss, if you want to call them, Is it the right company to work at for a start?

Like, is that a great work environment?

is my first question.

Two, if you feel worried that they might react, is there someone else in

the business that's in a leadership position or HR that you can talk to and

trust and they can help you approach that person to have those conversations?

it's hard.

If your boss doesn't like you, then you'll be lucky to be in a

job at, for whatever reason I find.

if they've taken a disliking to you, then I I'd certainly probably

start looking for a new role.

Cause that's a great work

environment to be if you're having a great point.

It's a great point.

if you're not feeling safe.

In any conversation with a direct boss, then is it the right company?

That's a great question, just in itself.

And then if you have ADHD and you're not working for somebody that you like

back, because generally, if you don't like somebody, they don't like you.

It's a whole thing.

Then are you motivated?

Because for me, I would find that really demotivating.

And having ADHD, you want to be motivated.

Yeah, exactly.

but on that, if you feel like you're being targeted by that person and

no one else is, then you need to speak to someone about that as well.

this is opening up a whole can of worms.

I've been gaslit in a organization by quite a senior.

Um, and he would complain to mine, we'd have great conversations.

It was almost like he saw into my soul.

I think he was a bit of a narcissist and I'm an empath.

So I think it was just a relationship waiting to happen.

Yeah, exactly.

But in a workplace, yeah.

But in a workplace, of course.

Yeah.

And he'd make up conversations that we'd have.

It's like, he almost knew that I had.

Memory issues, but I would write everything down and he would

turn around and say, no, we had this conversation, and I'm HR.

So who do I go complain to?

Of course.

So I was the head of HR at the time.

it's just things like that.

If that is happening and you feel like that's happening, then you've

got to, you've got to report it.

and if it's someone really senior, like a CEO.

and you don't have anyone else to go to, then it's time to get out.

that's not going to change, but if it's a middle manager,

you need to take that further.

I think is my, thought on that.

I was also thinking about red flags after you've disclosed as well.

So it's things like feeling like you've been treated differently.

Now you've disclosed, your mental health in a bad way, it's like having work taken

away from you, having negative comments and then gaslighting as well is a, another

thing that might come up where they tell you to your face that you're doing a good

job, but complain to you about someone else or make up conversations that have

happened, you Um, and that's gaslighting and that's form a form of bullying.

it's looking at those and if those red flags do start to show after you've

disclosed, then you need to start making a diary and a note of things

that are going on and happening.

And any conversations that happen, you make sure they're in writing as

well, and you respond in writing too.

So that if anything then happens post that in regards to a dismissal, or poor

performance or, you know, anything that they start to pull out, then you have

a case to be able to turn around and say to Fair Work, I'm being treated,

I'm being discriminated against.

Then you can start that kind of process.

it's more the fact that I suppose.

if people just start to be a bit sort of weird towards

you.

But see, this is the part that I think is really hard because we talked about RSD.

So it's like, you go and you do it and you build yourself up and you say

it and then the person doesn't react the way you think they're going to,

or maybe they don't know what to say.

A lot of people don't know what to say, so they say the wrong thing.

And then, you know, You feel like you're getting targeted, or are you

just being managed the way you always were, and it's all in your head?

Mm

It's really hard.

I have an innate, so I get emails sometimes and I get a reaction

to that email and that's my RSD.

I'm reading between the lines, 100%.

I have a great colleague who is really level headed and I'll speak to her.

And I'll tell her what's going on for me and she will put it in a different slant.

And that really helps.

So that's, I think it's having your ally that, you know, that you can

really confide in and have conversations that won't go anywhere and you can be

really open and raw and they can help you through that mental process that

you might be, or the reaction that you're having that probably isn't.

necessary.

and then if it is, or they go, Oh, well, that's a bit weird.

I've not seen them treat you like that before.

Or that's when it would be okay.

I'm not going crazy.

I need to start addressing this.

Yeah.

Or, you know, like creating that paper or, um, yeah.

Yeah.

I was going to ask, when you talked about the positives to disclosing,

you talked about that you could ask for some accommodations.

I think that's great.

Let's just imagine that you disclosed and then your boss or someone at

work has gone, Oh, okay, cool.

That's good to know.

And then you've kind of like sidled up trying to like, Oh, maybe we could

have some accommodations and you've been kind of like shot down or kind of

like, quite quiet, that kind of vibe.

And no one really wants to talk about the accommodation.

What are some things that you should be able to ask for?

flexibility is a big one.

So that's for disability and working parents and especially

most of us have got kids with ADHD.

So we need flexibility and flexibility can look like working from a

different location a few times a week.

it can be working different hours.

to accommodate appointments or, just because you work better in the morning.

So you'd rather be in the office at 7 a.

m.

till 4 p.

m.

or you like to go to the gym because the exercise really helps

you with your, mental health, ADHD.

Autism, just making sure that you can do that so that you can come to

work and be productive because that's really helps you release and do or a

lunchtime session or whatever it is.

so it's just really looking at those reasonable adjustments.

That doesn't put pressure on your team to have to do the work

that doesn't mean someone else has to stand in to do your job.

and most of those are reasonable, I would say, in regards to

when work actually gets done.

if you're a shift worker, it becomes really hard.

And if you're in a.

customer service role or, retail or nursing or medical profession, again,

those things are quite hard to, change.

But again, it's just looking at having a think about what

do you need to support you?

And is that actually 38 hours a week is really tough, but

I know I can do my job in 35.

Can I have an extra three, it's kind of being proactive, understanding what you

need, putting it forward in writing.

again, another employment law change that happened last year

is changes to flexibility.

a company now has to have a conversation with you and try and

work out how it's going to work.

And if what you've asked is.

Too much then trying to figure out where you can meet in the middle.

It used to be that it could be declined on reasonable business grounds, and

that's tightened a lot, and there's a lot more restriction around that.

So from an employee perspective, that's really great.

Because if you request to work from home and you can work from, you can do your

job because you have a quiet space and a laptop and a mobile phone, like most

of us do these days, it can happen.

Like, why can't you, if you've got good internet, we've done it.

We've proved it works.

make it work.

to turn down that kind of thing becomes really hard from the employer perspective.

And I suppose as well, taking responsibility, which is what

you talked about earlier.

So not using ADHD as an excuse versus this is what will help me.

These three things here.

If I could receive those or have those, whatever the words are,

then I would be able to be more productive and then you would need

to hold up your end of the bargain.

you would then need to pick things that are going to actively help

you perform and then perform.

You can't then, after the accommodations, I would imagine this would piss

someone off, after they give you the accommodations, then start

going, Oh, well, of course I didn't get that done because I have ADHD.

And I suppose as well, that kind of like gives the bosses and the workplaces

a bit of a nasty taste in the mouth.

Because then the next person that comes through that discloses that is

really legitimately trying to do their best may then have bias against them.

it creates the thing called unconscious bias.

So you don't think that you have that bias and then you start to have reactions to

things or not, or through the recruitment process, turn around to someone and go,

Oh, we don't like them because of this.

And it's probably because they remind you of someone else

or something that's happened.

But there are also small.

Changes that can be made as well.

It's like saying, I found projects really hard that have no end date.

So my manager has this really great thing where I'm turning around and

if I, like two weeks later, I'm still going, Oh yeah, I'm still just

working on this, work for this client.

Didn't say it was a rush.

and it just keeps going down my to do list.

She'll just turn around and go, okay, that needs to be done this week.

For billing purposes.

I like make some, I know what she's doing, but I'm like, Oh cool.

Yeah.

Okay.

I'll get it done.

I'll get it done.

So she'll give me deadlines.

If there is no deadline.

that sort of stuff we've, we've got this really great relationship where she knows

happens for me and where things go wrong.

if I'm having a moment of overwhelm, which usually happens around my

period, I don't know where to start.

Oh my God.

My to do list is massive.

It's all urgent.

We will have regular daily catch ups where she'll say what's on today.

And we'll go through it and then it takes five minutes to

do a morning roundup of my day.

And she'll say, is that really urgent though?

Because everything to me, triage.

Like it's all urgent.

All has to be done.

It all has to be done now.

And she'll talk me through that.

again, that's, someone helping you with what needs to be done versus what

doesn't need to be done right now.

and the same with knowing if you sit in your emails all day.

Getting someone just to give you some help around that.

or if you talk too much in a meeting, having a safe word to just give you

that self awareness again or knowing that you think that if you're doing

a brainstorming meeting and you think better on your feet, creating an

environment where it's okay for everyone to stand up or to stand up and move

around the room if that's what you need.

So it's just having those kind of, like a, an agreement between you and your leader

around what helps you be really effective.

In your day to day, and just having that honest conversation, we're really

pushing in regards to leadership now, anyway, that those one on ones and those

conversations about well being are the most important things you need to have

with all employees, because you just don't know what's going on with someone's.

life and you need to know what's going on because that affects

performance, if they're not feeling comfortable and open to talk to you.

it is.

anything that pops up where you go, this is real struggle, have a chat

with your leader, talk about what you need, talk about it with your

team, come up with some kind of plan and an idea and take it from there.

I was actually going to add in there something that someone did for me once.

I'm known for being a bit of a sledgehammer.

I'm very direct.

And I actually love it when people are direct with me.

So it doesn't occur to me that people don't enjoy direct communication.

I've been in trouble with it many times at work.

I had somebody pull me up on it and teach me how to communicate.

Reframe what I'm saying.

So for example, we had, subcontractors and they would all want the work because

they all want to get paid and there'd be one that's like really good at one

thing, but he always wanted more work, but he was only good at one thing, but

he'd always end up with all the jobs and then I'd be so frustrated with him

and then like just threatened violence basically at the end of this whole thing.

anyway, this person came to me and said, instead of saying, I can't give you the

work because you're crap and you won't do it, and just sledgehammer him, and then

he hates you, why don't you just say, hey, I just want to leave you in this

particular field doing this particular thing to free you up to make sure you've

got the time for the next project.

And I was like, Oh, I've never, never occurred to me.

And it's like that retraining, just that little, it's still direct.

It's a direct conversation.

I'm not bluffing around.

I'm just making it a positive conversation as opposed to a negative.

And that had honestly never occurred to me ever.

you need people, you need to surround yourself with people like that.

I feel, I remember someone complained to me about an email I'd written.

I'd had emotional response and I just went,

um,

and my manager just turned around and said, whenever you feel like

that, send the email to me, send the email to your colleague, do what you

need to do to get that emotion out.

Take a deep breath, go for a walk, come back and then rewrite it.

Yeah.

Then approach it.

Yeah.

Do not react on emotion.

Everyone needs that person.

Yeah.

If it's a best friend, a partner, someone at work, everyone needs

like a sanity point where they're just like, nah man, you're cooked.

Like that's ridiculous.

Stop doing that.

it's like that friend when you like message him about your husband or

something, you're like, I'm so angry.

And then they're like, you have PMS.

That's not that bad.

Oh, sorry.

Okay.

So you just need someone to like pull you up.

I'm imagining just a quick one that you would probably need for these

conversations, a diagnosis on paper, as opposed to a self diagnosis

for a lot of these conversations.

Look.

For protections, I would say yes, 100%.

So if you want changes to be made, like big changes that are flexible, that

will be classed as flexibility in the eyes of fair work, 100 percent for the

small changes, for the small tweaks.

of how to perform better and how you're more effective.

I think everybody needs that.

Like every person, even neurotypical, everyone has a thing that works for them.

Everyone has a weakness.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like you're right.

I know someone I worked with once, all she wanted to do was to finish

half an hour earlier to go to Pilates.

She's like, I won't have a lunch break or whatever.

I just really love to go to Pilates.

Yeah.

Why is he so fucking hard?

Oh gosh.

Yeah.

Why?

I remember, um.

Why?

I don't care if she goes, she sits next to me.

Yeah.

I used to work in recruitment as a recruitment consultant.

And it was, so you have to be in your desk at eight o'clock.

You have to be at your desk till six o'clock.

You can't have a lunch.

Like my compliance straw was.

overflowing and I was forced to stay until it had all finished once.

It was like punishment.

It was like school.

that's innate.

in me.

And then I worked for someone and I had to go to a doctor's appointment

at four o'clock in the afternoon.

And I asked permission and he was like, can you stop asking

permission to leave an hour early?

I know you work hard.

I know you work on the bus on the way home.

I know you take calls in your outside of hours, but you have to stop just because

you're going to be here at quarter to.

9 instead of 8.

30, you don't need to text me to tell me you're going to be late.

Okay.

All right.

So yeah, it's hard when you work in an environment that's really strict and

structured, but I think some of us, our work ethic is so ingrained either from

our parents or from past experiences That 30 minutes and having to ask permission

can be really hard when sometimes you don't actually need to just ask depending

on the culture that you're working in.

Oh, I totally agree.

I totally agree.

and RSD can turn up as I don't want to upset someone.

I don't want to hurt their feelings like I have both sides.

I find it really hard to have direct conversations.

I will shy away from it and be like, no, I can't have that conversation with you.

It's funny, but anyway.

Oh, that's so funny.

See my anxiety around it just drives me.

So I just like, can't wait.

Impulsively ring someone with no plan.

And then just like sham of them.

And then I'm like, that felt like something I could have done differently.

But, you know, I'm learning,

I try, I

try and look, I've managed to sort my work out.

I don't have large teams and stuff.

It would be different if I was, Well, I would never be a high level manager.

Let's just be honest.

I don't have the skills.

Anyway.

Is there a website that is helpful or accurate if someone wants to know more

and they want to get out of rabbit warren?

Is there any website you would recommend?

there's lots.

obviously, in regards to legal, Fair Work is your place to go.

Fair Work and Work Health and Safety, for the psychosocial information.

for anything to do with mental health, Black Dog Institute has some great work,

resources, and so does Beyond Blue.

They have a specific work section within there.

LinkedIn, I go in a massive rabbit hole a lot.

I follow ADHD Australia and they do a lot of, workplace, um, One that they

did recently was around overstimulation in the workplace and how to help

yourself through that and what to do.

They republish a number of articles from lots of organizations.

And then there's a lot of places that now offer mental health

and neurodiversity training.

So they, again, have a number of really interesting blogs on what

to do and how to support yourself.

the best ones I found, and the ones that we always talk about a lot

with our clients are Black Dog.

and beyond blue really in regards to mental health and having the right

conversations with your leader or if you're a leader having the right

conversations with your employees as well.

Yeah, beautiful.

There might be some, leaders on this podcast that may be

wanting to learn more as well.

that would be really interesting for them.

And one final question, are there any do's and don'ts generally that

you think are helpful or unhelpful?

Yeah, so I suppose I was having a think about this and my do's are, and I've said

this so many times, ensure you feel safe.

That is a massive thing.

you are about to open up about something that has so much stigma

attached to it still, that You need to feel safe to be able to do that.

knowing that there's no judgment or some kind of strange response.

And if there is walk away, tell them you'll come back once they've themselves.

Be ready to educate as well.

Everyone has lots of ideas of what it is.

It doesn't exist.

Oh, we all have ADHD.

Don't we all have ADHD?

No, we don't.

Do you spend every single day walking around the house wondering

why the heck you're in this room?

Because you've forgotten?

Like, yes, we all do that sometimes, but.

Not every single hour of every single day.

It's exhausting.

So no, we don't all have ADHD.

But maybe

though, maybe we need to lower expectations in that conversation.

Cause from what you've just said, you've just listed out something

awesome and something probably common is that that person might

then go, Oh yeah, I forget things.

Everyone has that and minimize.

Then if you're the person that's asking for the accommodations,

maybe we need to just give the employer a moment to process.

I don't think we want to get on the attack, if they start minimizing, let's

just maybe let that fly for that moment.

And that's, when we talk about having difficult conversations in

general, if you see that there's a reaction that either you don't like.

It's okay to take a break.

It's okay to say, look, this is a lot.

I just need five minutes.

Or can we just reconvene?

Or can we go for a walk?

Because I love walking meetings.

Because

you don't have to give eye contact, you think better on your feet.

And it also creates that, if you're in an office space in a room, it's

really intense looking at someone, like eye contact's not a thing for us.

Like it's hard.

And

your RSD is going over and over.

How are they looking?

Are they looking angry?

Yeah.

Good point.

Do say, can we go for a walk?

Can we go for a coffee and walk around the block?

Like anything that was an emotional conversation that I've ever had to have

with a leader or an employee, or even feedback, to an employee who had, bipolar.

I would take her on walking meetings and we would have really great

conversations and it just feels less intimidating, for both sides.

So that's a really great way to start.

Be open and honest and communicate a lot.

So if something's not working for you, or you're finding it hard that day, for

whatever reason, have that conversation.

don't hold it in.

I think once you've done all the disclosing.

You need to continue that open and honest two way conversation.

and just tell them where you're at.

If you're particularly struggling one day for whatever, cause the work that

you're doing is so, so boring and you hate it and you can't get started, be

honest and help them help you find a way out of that hole so you can get started.

and then my other thing was being neuro diversity advocate.

So if your company doesn't have.

If their inclusivity doesn't cover neurodiversity as we'd like

it to, see if you can be that advocate that joins the group.

That inclusivity club or whatever, or organize for that to happen, I think

so that you can be the person within your business that helps drive what

needs to be driven within the workplace.

I think that's an incredible point because then you're

offering something back as well.

Let me help you get the best out of the neurodiverse.

Population and then, as you said earlier, if you're saying there's 1

in 4 that are diagnosed with this and these are the statistics on it, then

probably there's more than just you.

How can they get the best out of their staff and then advocating for that,

offering adjustments and being a bit of an expert, really, I mean, it's a low bar.

if they don't know anything, it'd be easy to be, that's a really great

point because even you're turning it to positive rather than I'm taking, which

I know that we're not, but I'm just saying from the employer's point of

view, like I'm taking, I'm asking, it's like, well, actually I'm helping as well.

That's a great point.

yeah, I was in a conference a few months ago, and, someone was at, we were talking

about inclusivity policies and, programs and they were all talking about women

and parents and all this kind of stuff.

And someone said, what are you doing for neurodiversity?

And they just said, oh, we use a special recruitment agency to recruit

autistic, employees in, programming.

And it, and we also have a quiet space for people and I was like, Ooh,

this is really triggering for me.

Cause it's not just, that's not just what you find for anyone with neurodivergence.

Stop!

so yes, there's a lot of education that needs to be done.

And I think if you can be that person that turns around and says, Hey, I

work in, HR and I'm neurodiverse.

Hi, I work in marketing and amazingly, I'm really creative and I have ADHD.

do you know something really interesting that I just, I know this is off

topic, but we're about to finish, I just had to tell you, cause it's

just, it does my head in, right?

I go to the netball and I won't say what club, but everyone will guess

because it's what area I live in.

they're really nice and they try very hard, but they're so, uneducated.

So they go on about inclusivity constantly, right?

And about how they're so inclusive and that's lovely.

and I love to go to the netball games and I take my kids

who have sensory processing.

And so.

They have a sensory room, right?

And that's lovely.

But when you go into the sensory room, which I would like to go into the sensory

room, what it actually is, is it's like decked out with all this like kid stuff.

And so when you go in there, it's a sensory room, but I think

they think it's just for kids.

And so then you get kids that have all kinds of neurodiversities running around.

Burning off energy because they've been sitting at a game, the parents take them

there to run them out kind of thing.

So then when you go there needing a quiet space because it's a sensory

room, actually it's worse than outside.

They don't seem to understand that it's, I suppose it depends on what do you think

a sensory room is, because if you've got kids that are hyperactive that are sitting

in a game, they probably do need to run.

But then I'm looking at it like, isn't this also for

adults that need a quiet space?

What's it

advertised

as?

Just a sensory room?

It says sensory room and it prides itself on inclusivity.

Right.

I assume it thinks it's for neurodivergent children because

it's like a children's play area.

Yeah.

With a screen on mute, so you can't hear the commentator and I'm just there going,

I'm just so confused by this whole thing.

It sounds like it's a kid's play

area,

not a sensory.

And then I just think, why do I leave my kids at home when I can put them in here?

That's weird, isn't it?

Anyway, Nikki, thank you so much.

This has been so informative, so well done.

And I think it's also been really general in that most people could apply it.

it's like specific, but also general and I think really applicable.

So thank you so much for your time.

I appreciate it.

The key message here is you are not alone.

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