In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Scott Hutcheson, biosocial scientist and senior lecturer in engineering and technology leadership at Purdue University, to dive into his new book, Biohacking Leadership: Leveraging the Biology of Behavior to Maximize Your Impact. Dr. Hutcheson brings decades of leadership development expertise and shares a science-based perspective on how leaders can align their biology with their leadership behaviors to foster greater connection, influence, and performance in their teams.

Scott explains the concept of “biohacking leadership,” drawing on both his professional research and personal experience with a diabetes diagnosis. He reveals how small, intentional tweaks to daily habits—such as sleep, exercise, and stress management—can have profound effects not only on personal health but also on leadership behaviors and team outcomes.

Key takeaways:

• Leadership is a biological phenomenon: How you feel physically and mentally directly influences your communication, decision making, emotional regulation, and ability to connect with others.
• Small behavioral “biohacks”—such as consistent exercise, quality sleep, and stress management—can significantly improve a leader’s presence and impact.
• The three biodynamic channels—warmth, competence, and gravitas—define the core behaviors that signal leadership and inspire followership.
• Leaders have the power to shape their team’s ecosystem, much like a keystone species shapes its environment, regardless of their place in the hierarchy.
• Self-awareness and reflective experimentation are essential—leaders should assess their strengths, seek feedback, and make incremental changes to their behaviors.
• Genuine human connection, through simple daily check-ins and personal validation, is fundamental to building trust and high-performing teams.
• Even leaders who feel less “naturally warm” can make subtle shifts, like open body language or intentional silence, to dial up connection and influence.
• Every interaction is an opportunity to experiment with leadership behaviors and observe their impact, continually refining your approach for greater engagement.

Listen for evidence-based insights and practical strategies to unlock your biology and amplify your leadership—one intentional behavior at a time.

Pick up Dr. Hutcheson’s book.

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Leadership Jam session. Today's guest is Dr. Scott Hutcheson, who is a biosocial scientist and senior lecturer in engineering and technology leadership at Purdue University, where he brings decades of experience teaching and guiding leaders at the intersection of technology, engineering, and human behavior. And he's here today to talk about his new book, Biohacking Leadership. Leveraging the biology of behavior to maximize your impact. Dr. Hutcheson demonstrates how the way leaders feel physically and mentally can profoundly shape their communication, emotional regulation, decision making, and the ability to collaborate effectively. His mission is to help leaders maximize their impact by aligning how they feel with how they lead.

Scott, welcome to the Leadership Jam session.

I am happy to be here.

Well, I'm excited for you to be here, and I appreciate you coming on to talk about your book. So the title of your book, Biohacking Leadership. Love the title. I think it's a pretty cool title. Perhaps you can just walk us through. What exactly do you mean by biohacking in the context of leadership?

Yeah, that is a good place to start. So let me take you back to a couple of different streams of my experiences that came together and at just the right time. So I've been working in leadership development and organizational development for a long time, for almost four decades. And I've always taken a bit of a biological approach to that. Our behaviors have evolved to help us do some amazing things as human beings when we come together to form communities and companies and that sort of thing. So that was always kind of my frame of reference. But then about five years ago, something else was going on. I got a diabetes diagnosis.

For me, it was probably a matter of when, not if. Every year at my physical, my doctor would say, A1C is creeping up there. And I. I knew that I had a family history of it, but then I finally crossed that threshold and, like, oh, my gosh, I've got diabetes. So I finally got real serious in figuring out, all right, I want to understand this disease, if you will. And I wanted to understand how my behavior and changes to my behavior impact the disease and the outcomes that can result. So I sort of started biohacking, if you will. So biohacking is a large, but kind of a subculture phenomenon, mostly looking at longevity and human performance.

And to be honest, Rob, there's a bunch of junk science out there, but science, too. And so basically, I. I wanted to, as I said, understand the disease. So I opted for some technology. Like, I. I opted for a continuous glucose monitor. Happens to be on this arm right now. And, and get all the data I could out of a smartwatch.

And then began to look at in real time how changes to my behavior impacted my blood sugar and, and other markers. If you want, I found out more. Everyone knows what you eat matters, but also how much rest you get, how you manage stress, your level of exercise. And what I quickly began to say is, man, I can tweak my behaviors and impact these health outcomes. So about a year ago, my, my publisher at Wiley had published a book with him a number of years ago, said, hey, are you working on anything new? And I said, you know, I've been thinking about this notion of biohacking leadership. Biohacking teams and biohacking organizations come leveraging this biology of behavior.

Yeah.

Leaders make some tweaks and experiment on a biological level to impact the performance of them as a leader, but also their teams and their organization. So the idea of biohacking leadership was kind of born there.

Interesting. So is there an example you can share of what that looks like?

Yeah, so let's kind of do a mental exercise for you for your listeners. So we make decisions all the time about who we perceive to be a potential leader and who maybe not yet, maybe not ever. So sometimes we're on the other side of the desk hiring someone. Right. We want to bring them in as a team leader or maybe we're an executive and we're adding to our executive team. So we have a resume, but we're evaluating their behavior as we get to know them in interviews, that sort of thing. And then in every everyday life, I mean, we're looking at human behavior to decide who we're going to pull the lever for and the voting booth.

Yeah.

And what, what we are actually doing is sampling from this behavioral stream. Like we're making these thin slice judgments about people and often this is very sort of subconscious. So what, what we did, along with some of my graduate students, and we said, all right, what are the behaviors that when other people see or experience, they say, oh, potential leader there, or oh man, not a potential leader there. And we identified a model with about a minimal data set, if you will, of about 18 behaviors. And when we see or experience those behaviors, we're much more likely to say that seems to be a leader. But even more importantly than that, when a leader consistently exhibits these behaviors, it results in higher level of, of, of impact. So let's, let's take a couple of examples.

Yeah.

So when you meet someone new, whether it's a leader or not, in any situation, your impressions of that person first hit you. Physiologically, we've all met someone and we say, that person just gives me the ick.

Right.

I'm not, you know, if it's a. If it's a salesperson, I am not going to buy from that person. At least not yet.

Yep.

In the dating scene, right, we pick up on signals like, oh, this might be someone I'd like to spend some more time with or get to know better or maybe not, right. So often those. Those are physiological signals. So here's. Here's a thought experiment. So think about a time where you were working with a leader, maybe earlier in your career, and they just prompted you to do your best work. You felt fully engaged when working with that leader. You were satisfied with your job, probably.

There were a set of regular feelings that you would get. You would feel inspired when you heard them talk about the future, and the hairs on the back of your neck would stand up right. Now. There might be other times where you're working with a leader and something about the way in which they interacted just did not hit you in the right way.

Right.

Think about if you've ever been in a situation where you just dreaded coming to work that knot in your stomach. And when someone, a leader, would enter the room, it would just change the whole mood. We feel that physiologically first. And then that physiological reaction sends a signal to our brain that says, oh, I know this feeling. I am angry, or I am worried, or I am inspired or I am motivated. So leaders impact us at a biological level. And when we began to experience those feelings and emotions on a regular basis, that spills out into our performance. So that's this notion of looking at leadership as a biological phenomenon, just like any relationship is a biological phenomenon.

But we figured out these 18 behaviors that when most people see present, they say, oh, that. That seems to be someone I might be interested in following.

What are some of the behaviors? Just curious.

Yeah. So the 18 behaviors actually sort into three, what I call biodynamic channels. So let's start with those channels. So we talk about warmth first. A person who is warm is someone that we feel a connection to. It's easy to connect with them. They're friendly. They seem to have good intentions.

So that's kind of the minimum level of connection. So we have warmth, and then we have competence. So we want to work with people that we can connect well with. We also want to work with people who are competent, people who offer us something of value and their experience or their expertise or their knowledge or other Resources they have access to. And then the third is gravitas. We want to work with people who can bring us together with others to create shared value, just like the earth brings together the moon in its own orbit. So those channels are warmth, competence, and gravitas. And we've got kind of six behaviors under each.

So let me give you one under each category.

Sure.

So. So under warmth, a person who validates others, we usually think of as warm. So, Rob, you thanked me for being on your show today in a very gracious sort of way. So you're validating me. So when a boss validates, we feel connected to them. We feel that element of warmth, and that typically spikes our oxytocin feel, bond with them. So that's just one of the six under one.

Okay.

And then under competence would be someone who employs personal strategies to manage their workload. Right. So we want to see leaders who don't seem to always have their hair on fire.

Right.

Leaders who seem organized when they come into a meeting.

Yep.

That's a sense of. Of calm, if you will. And in times of stress, which, you know, we're going to face stress in our organizations, that will lower cortisol. Like, this is a really stressful time. But Rob came into the room fully prepared. Gosh, I'm glad Rob is on our team. So that's. That's one of those under.

And then let's. Let's throw one out for gravitas and gravitas. One of my favorites is. Uses silence when needed.

Yeah.

I have had leaders in my life that don't leave any air in the room.

Right.

And you to a conversation, and there's no chance for a conversation because it is just a brain dump. So a leader who manages to use silence when needed, pause to invite participation. So that's one of the biomarkers, if you will, within gravitas.

Interesting.

Yeah.

So just to take a step back, when you asked me about. Think about a leader who, you know, maybe inspired you, if you will, it was when you were describing one of the behaviors, the validating piece. I worked for a leader many, many years ago. I was young in my career who was really good at. Made me feel like, you know, I was listened to.

Right.

Validated what I was saying. And you're right, it does kind of does trigger you, you know, physiologically.

Right.

And, and, and mentally as well.

That's right.

So, yeah, it's interesting. So where does the biohacking then come.

Into play when a leader understands this. This cycle? So first of all, there's statistics that say the performance of a team. So how a team performs between 50 to 70% of the impact on their performance is the leader.

Right.

So you know, I've been a part of teams where all of a sudden you switch out leaders, someone leaves, someone else comes in.

That's right.

And the dynamic can change.

That's right.

So 50 to 70% of the impact is having the right leader who's consistently sending those right signals. So if a leader understands that they will pay attention to the signals that they are sending, they will pay attention to the behaviors that result and make a connection between, oh, you know, when I yell louder, I might get short term results, but I'm feeling my team is kind of distancing from me. So maybe ought to try something different. Maybe I need to tweak my behavior. So that's where the biohacking comes in and understanding that there's something going on inside you. We mentioned cortisol and oxytocin. Well, there's also dopamine and norepinephrine. Those are kind of the four main neurochemicals that are coursing through our veins that have a big impact on our engagement.

So one of the things we do with leaders is we help them understand various situations might have certain of those chemicals elevated Cortisol. For instance, when someone is coming in stressed, what are the signs that they are stressed? And how can I use my warmth, for instance, to lower their level of stress and likely their level of cortisol and boost that oxytocin? Because there's this kind of inverse relationship. So simply that validation or listening or simply, you know, body language that is open, you know, a slight lean in to check someone, how are they doing? That's a simple behavioral tweak. A leader can make for a very strategic reason to get that stress level down so that the person that they're talking with can, can think a bit more rationally about next steps. Because when we come in stressed, we can't really do that.

Sure.

So paying attention to not only what we say, but how we say in our body language, recognizing that that impacts people on this physiological level and then this emotional level and this behavioral level. So how do you leverage that knowledge and experiment? Just like I was leveraging the data off of my devices.

Right.

Tracking my behavior. Oh, a 15 minute walk after a meal will keep my blood sugar more evenly. Right. So that's a habit I'm going to keep. So leaders can do the same thing.

So I'm curious, like, because you said you know, this all kind of was somewhat triggered with your diagnosis.

Yeah.

And this.

Right.

And you said as you were making, you know, some changes, you noticed changes in your behavior.

Yeah.

Is that right? So I think you mentioned one of them maybe walking. But I was just curious, what did you notice about yourself and how it impacted you and the changes you made?

Yeah. For me, it was, you know, those kind of four variables. What you eat, how much you move.

Yeah.

Quality of your sleep, and how you manage stress. For me, it could be different for other people, but for me, I found what I refer to as a keystone habit. And for me, that was exercise. When I'm exercising regularly, you know, when I'm getting 10,000 steps a day, when I'm getting to the gym three days a week to do a little, you know, a little bit of strength training, all those other things fall into place. I'm more motivated to eat well. I sleep better. I don't feel as stressed when I get because of an injury or just a busy schedule. When I get off a few days of exercising, all those other things start to kind of fall off.

And I start to see some changes in the numbers as well. So I think there's a leadership lesson there, too, with these three aerodynamic channels. Warmth, competence, and gravitas. I find that for every single one of us, one of them probably comes more naturally than others. Maybe, you know, even early in life, we had that going for us. And so that is often kind of our keystone channel. We default. My wife defaults to warmth.

Yeah. I default to gravitas. I had to kind of learn warmth. I almost had to fake it until I made it.

Right.

And being a fully engaged individual with others.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, it makes sense.

Right.

I often talk about how in order to first be a great leader, you first have to know who you are.

Yeah.

And how you need to possibly adapt. I know this about myself, that when I am consistent with just going for a walk, I do feel much better. I feel more energetic, more positive. And when I fall off the wagging, I know that I need to do it. Is that part of the strategies to figure out? You know, because you mentioned, you know, obviously, sleep.

Right.

And eating well, exercising. Is it. Is it figuring out which one might work better or might help you kind of, you know, mirror some of the behaviors you're looking for? I mean, probably all of them, but is there one versus the other?

Yeah, I think that's going to be different for every person. And one of the things we do is we do a bit of an audit of, of these, of these 18, if you will. We have a diagnostic so you can self assess and you can also get feedback from others. So you can, you can see for yourself. Man, I seem to, I seem to do this really, really well. People can say that I'm very consistent at doing this, maybe not quite so consistent in doing these other things. Then we sort of back into, all right, well, the ones that you do really, really well, you probably don't even have to think about anymore. Right.

How can you develop the. These that, that you have a more difficult time with? So for instance, you know, using silence when needed. If you're a person who just always takes up all the air of the room, doing most of the talking, well, you can simply take a pause and maybe you're a person, your brain is working overtime, right. And you talk out loud as you're thinking. So we're going back to some real biohacking here. I've worked with a lot of leaders on breathing, right. You're going into a meeting if it's going to be stressful or even not take a second, calm your own nervous system so that you can be a little bit more paced in what it is that you want to say. Make space for other people to do that as well.

So little things like some simple breathing techniques, you know, grounding yourself whether you're, you're seated or on a zoom. So there are some, even some physiological things a leader can do for themselves to get them primed and ready to, ready to work.

You know, some people are just wired a certain way.

Yeah, right.

How difficult is it for people to really, you know, make that shift or, I mean, first they have to identify what it is that they need to focus on.

Right.

But how difficult is it to make that shift? And is there any guidance you can give to that?

Yeah, so we use this, this technique of kind of behavioral anchoring. So let's say that, you know, your self assessment or your feedback assessment comes back and says others don't perceive you as, as being, as being prepared. So we would have a discussion about. All right, well, well, what does being prepared look like to you? You know, are there other aspects of your life where you feel you are prepared? And, and how do you do that? Oh, well, I'm, I'm prepared. When we are having a barbecue, you know, a barbecue on a Saturday, we're inviting a bunch of friends. Well, tell me what that looks like. Well, I do quite a bit of planning. I get my grocery list together, make sure I've got Charcoal for the, for the grill.

You know, I think about, you know, who likes what beer, and I make sure that, you know, I have some on hand. You know, what do you do to prepare at work? Well, I don't usually I come into a meeting and, you know, how about we prepare an agenda? Could you spend five minutes thinking through what are the three or four things I need to accomplish in this meeting and maybe I hand that out ahead of time or send an email. Hey, gang, these are the three or four things we're going to try to focus on in our weekly standup.

Right.

Sometimes that that's all it takes is it's a signal that, oh, hey, Joe is thinking this through. He's not going to waste her time. So what I often find is, is there might be other parts of their life where they exhibit this particular behavior, but they kind of leave that at the door. Even if that's not the case, if they're completely unprepared in all of, all of life, I ask them to reflect on who have you worked with that you would deem always prepared and what did that look like? Can we start there? What's one habit that you saw them do that you can try that. So if you don't know what it looks like in your own life, we have surely seen it with somebody else and we can try that.

All right.

I mean, that is great advice. I have a question for you because there was something that you said before. We just talked about how leaders obviously can account for 50% or more of the impact, the success. Success of a team. So you do talk about in your book, one of the concepts is keystone leadership shapes ecosystems. Can you just elaborate? Because I think you make the connection into how in nature keystone species shape entire ecosystems. And is that the connection you try to make that similar into organizations and the culture?

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, we talk about kind of the biology, behavior. Well, those take place in living systems. So we can look at some other living systems and gain some insights. So, you know, one of the keystone species mentioned in that, in that chapter of the book, and by the way, it's the first chapter because it's kind of foundational is the beaver.

Right.

So we all know a beaver's job is to build a dam. That beaver just builds the damage.

Yeah.

And all of a sudden, when that dam is built, an entire new ecosystem develops. Instead of, you know, he diverts some of the flowing water, so now we have a pond. And just by the fact that we now have still water, we'll Create a new ecosystem around that pond. So the beaver, beaver invites the beaver family there. But then there are other creatures that are symbiotic with the beaver. Certain birds will start to drop, certain seeds and plants will grow, and you get this sustainable ecosystem. But as long as that beaver continues to patch up that dam and trains the little beavers to do so, the minute a beaver decides I'm done with that dam, that ecosystem will go away and it will return to a flowing stream or flowing river. So the beaver is not the apex predator.

So the idea is you can be a keystone leader no matter where you are in the organization. Right. You can be the person, the lynchpin that creates a new set of culture, a new way of, of working together. And, and what I have found especially I work a lot with, and I know you do too, kind of emerging leaders.

Sure. Yeah.

Right. When you have the reputation of, of, of having a high profile team around you, people take notice of that and they say, what is that person doing differently? I've got team B, that's, that's hitting it out of the park. When, with Rob as their team leader, teams A and C are doing okay. But when I compare them to team B, Rob's team, gosh, there's just something special going on there. So chances are you will have the opportunity to take your impact way beyond that team because you'll be the one tapped on the shoulder and say, all right, now we need you to lead an entire unit and then potentially a, you know, a division and, and, and go on from there. So this notion of the keystone species, I think, is, I think, an important one.

Yeah, I think that's a great analogy.

Right.

Because the reality is, you know, even as a first line leader, right. In your organization, you have the ability to make a profound impact.

Absolutely right.

And it's so true. You can always tell, you know, the great leaders by just looking at their teams. And I think a lot of leaders don't understand that.

And I remember thinking years ago that, gosh, you know, how many people can I actually tell what to do?

Right?

It's nobody. I mean, I've got two young adult sons and for a very short time during their young lives, I could pretty much tell them what to do.

Yeah, I feel your pain.

Yes.

Yeah, that did not last very long. Right. And you know, maybe Henry Ford could tell people what to do in Detroit because there's no place else you could go to make the kind of living that you can make of the Ford Motor Company. Most of us are leading highly Talented people, talent. And talent is, is mobile. Right. Talent is liquid talent can go lots of different places. Work a lot with tech companies.

You know, the tenure of a, of a early stage tech worker is about two years.

Yeah.

So you can't tell anybody what to do. So just like that beaver, you're going to have to build an environment where they want to stay for as long as they can and they can perform at the highest, at the highest level. So if you can't tell anyone else to do, how else are you going to lead?

That's right.

But then creating kind of the behavioral patterns that result in high performance.

Yeah.

Well, and again, just to kind of summarize, this goes back into. I kind of now completely understand the whole approach that is going back to, you know, how you were diagnosed and you were basically modifying your body.

Right.

Based on using techniques or even, you know, medicines, whatever the case may be, diagnostic tools.

Right.

To change your whole approach. This is what leaders need to do.

Absolutely.

So if you could leave leaders with one biohacking practice to try this week, that would make the biggest difference, you know, in how they lead, what would that be?

I think it would be trying to create a genuine connection with those that they lead.

Yeah.

Understanding that these are, you know, human beings with full lives outside of the, the workday. And that doesn't mean you have to get in everybody's business. But having that human to human connection I think is, is, is paramount. So, you know, quick little check ins that don't seem, I mean, I'm not a big fan of team building just for team building or silly icebreaker questions. But there are some ways you can check in with one another and some of those can be fun. One of the things that I have helped some leaders adopt is this notion of starting a meeting with this kind of question to say, hey, if you were going to have a walk up song, right, for a really good day at work, what would it be? What would it be?

Yeah.

And you know, people, great question. Yes. Some, some will be silly and say welcome to the jungle. Right, Right. And then others will have this soaring anthem and it's just this nice check in. You get a little bit of taste of other people's kind of musical preferences and it doesn't take more than a few minutes. And I love that kind of, that kind of check in. Right.

And I've even worked with some virtual teams where they've decided to create collaborative playlists. Right. Here's our Spotify playlist. Let's put that song that's Pretty cool. So just these little check ins again, without being in everybody's business, but these little check ins to get to know people on a more personal basis would be one.

What do you say to the leaders out there? Because there are. I come across, I'm sure you do as well. That will sit back and say, yeah, you know, that's just all mushy soft stuff. We don't need that. Just. You just need to perform.

Yeah.

So what I, what I advise leaders is I'm not asking you to become something that you are not.

Yeah.

What I am asking you to do is be willing to dial up or dial down who you are 20%. Right. So you think those warmth, competence and gravitas channels, I call them channels because, you know, we can dial them up or we can dial them down. So if warmth isn't your thing, you know, if you're all about competence. Right. Amp up warmth just a little bit. Just a little bit. And you know, one of the things that we work on is, it sounds silly, but just, just the way in which you, you gesture, you use your hands.

So a simple check in with a, with a hand on the table slightly toward the other person on. Hey man, thanks for coming today. And you can't see it, but I'm, you know, I'm just placing my six inches out. That's subtle signal that, you know, I'm, I'm not, I'm not touching you, but I'm leaning in and I'm, and I'm making a slight gesture toward you with a, with a hand on the table. I'm so glad you're, you're here today.

Yeah.

You know, hey man, I'm glad you're here today. This sends a very different signal, does it not?

Yeah, sure.

Yeah. Your arms folded and.

Yeah.

Standoffish.

Yeah.

So I'm a big fan of stand up comedy. Not only I knew I liked you.

For a reason, but go ahead.

Yeah.

All right. Not only for their performance, but how they put a set together. So even the greats, even Jerry Seinfeld and others, they still work it out joke by joke, night after night at open mics. So I tell the leader, every interaction is an opportunity to experiment. I'm going to try a different kind of greeting or different tone of voice when I welcome you into my office, pull my chair from behind my desk and we're going to sit side by side if that's not something I do right. And then I'm going to, I'm going to pay attention to say, do I sense A different outcome. When I make these small tweaks to my behavior consistently, I say, man, that works better than when I do this other thing. Well, then that becomes part of your repertoire.

That's a joke that you keep because it lands every time. Not a joke, but a behavior that you keep. So, you know, we have all done this all our lives. We figured out how to be a friend.

Yeah.

By making some mistakes.

Sure.

A friend asked you to keep a secret, you don't keep the secret. Well, you've lost that friend maybe forever, maybe for a while. But next time you say, next time a friend tells me a secret, I'm going to keep that secret. We try things, we fail. We experiment in other kinds of relationships. Why not the most important relationship in our professional career with those that we lead. So, you know, whether it's my framework or somebody else's, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try a couple of these things this week and then I'm gonna reflect on, is that working for me? Am I seeing a difference in engagement? Am I seeing a different performance when I practice this consistently versus when I don't?

So. But that's the key, right? Because I think it's such great advice. The key is, though, you do have to be disciplined to then, you know, look for what is the, the outcome of it.

Right, right.

To be able to experiment and you have to just be in that mindset to. All right, I'm going to try something different. Let me see how if that works, how it works.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

By the way, I, I. One of my teams over the years, I took for one of their development, we had an improv group come in and put them through an improv workshop.

That's fun. Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Just to get them out of their comfort zone. And.

Yeah.

And it's ironic, you talk about the. What music, you know, the, the would you listen to. I had a manager who actually used that as an interview question.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

What kind of music would you want when they announce you and you walk into the room? What's the.

What your answer was?

Well, Drinking My Hand by Eric Church. You know, that's kind of.

Yeah.

Although I guess it depends on a day, I'd probably pick a different song.

Right.

So your book, Biohacking Leadership, Leveraging the biology of behavior to maximize your input.

Is.

Is this a series? Part one of a. Of a three part series, Is that right?

It is, yeah. I just finished up. I just finished up book two, the first draft of it, and that's due to the Publisher in, in December and that one is biohacking teams. And then the third will be due a year from then and that's biohacking organizations. So this one really focuses on the signals a leader sins and we start to talk about the impact on those they lead. But then we really unpack. Right, well now what are the patterns of behavior on a team and then within an organization? And I think of my work in these concentric circles. You know, you've got a leader, you've got their team, you've got the organization, and then you have the ecosystem in which the organization works with.

Call it a supply chain called innovation network or call it a, you know, a regional economy, if you will. And so you can scale and apply these same biological principles at each of these levels. And the reason I started with leadership is because I got asked to if I would be interested in doing a training in executive presence. And I've never been a big fan of executive presence. It just seems, oh, you have to have charisma and you know, it's nice if you're tall and you dress well. And there wasn't a lot of evidence, there wasn't a lot of scholarly evidence of what is there, this evidence based construct of what executive presence is. So really my starting point to say, well, what is it? How does a leader behave or how does this person behave? And then others say, oh, oh my gosh, that seems to be a leader. I'm going to pull the lever for them in the booth or I'd be interested in being on their team.

So that's really where this model of what I call leadership biodynamics came from. It's a, it's a science based approach to executive presence. Interesting. In this book called Biohacking Leadership. And then those leadership signals, when they start being consistent within a team, create a pattern of behavior among that team that will be biohacking teams. And then if that team is a core team, the behaviors of that team become behavioral pathways of an entire organization. So that's what the organizational book will, we'll, we'll play into.

Well, Scott, I appreciate you coming on. I could spend, you know, another hour just talking on this topic, but definitely appreciate you coming on and sharing your, you know, your concepts, your book and all the concepts that are associated with it. And I know that you're a keynote speaker, a lot of you work with a lot of organizations. So for anyone listening out there, we'll leave your contact information and the link to your book in the show notes, but love the discussion appreciate you coming on and all the work you're doing for our leaders out there.

Thank you, Rob.