Shownotes
- What some of our favorite activities at church are actually saying to people.
- How close and yet so far off we can accidentally be in these things.
- Why our ‘good intentions’ are not cutting it with the culture anymore.
- How much of what we do in our Sunday services are confusing people.
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Transcripts
If it was just one more killer church service and sermon that we needed, the whole world would have been saved long ago.
Caesar Kalinowski:Cause, cause I'll tell you, there's, man, there's a lot of churches that are doing really good.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, man, their bands are crushing it and they're staging and lighting, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:And preaching.
Caesar Kalinowski:Oh, there's so much good preaching.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I, and I'm actually, I'm not actually against all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:What I'm advocating for is.
Caesar Kalinowski:Is there need, is it time to start to kind of check the medium a little bit and go, have we slipped into things and trying to compete with the world, thinking that's what will do it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's what will get them.
Caesar Kalinowski:If we can like win at their game instead of saying, no, no, no, we were given this most beautiful thing of being the family of God and sharing our things and living generously and having God's favor upon our lives.
Caesar Kalinowski:and watching how people are super attracted that that's never going to change and go away, but we've somehow Decided to know we can do a better job by competing with entertainment and all that And it's not that because people don't want to go to church or they want to be a part of the church They want to be a part of a family
Heath Hollensbe:Welcome to the Everyday Disciple podcast where you'll learn how to live with greater intentionality and an integrated family Faith that naturally fits into every area of life.
Heath Hollensbe:In other words, discipleship as a lifestyle.
Heath Hollensbe:This is the stuff your parents, pastors and seminary professors probably forgot to tell you.
Heath Hollensbe:And now here's your host, Cesar Kalinowski.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hey, good to be with you again.
Caesar Kalinowski:I sure hope you're enjoying this podcast.
Caesar Kalinowski:As much as I love doing it for y'all, it's the best.
Caesar Kalinowski:I look forward to it every week.
Caesar Kalinowski:I really do.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's why we've been doing it for over seven years.
Caesar Kalinowski:Haven't missed a Monday yet.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hey, and here's a heads up reminder.
Caesar Kalinowski:Did you listen to the episode a few episodes back on being a good neighbor this summer and really getting set up to make this summer a great time for mission discipleship?
Caesar Kalinowski:If you didn't go back and hear that just a few episodes back.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, if you did hear it, did you put some of those ideas into motion?
Caesar Kalinowski:I hope so.
Caesar Kalinowski:Things are heating up and you've got a great opportunity right now.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you know what else you've got a great opportunity to do and that's share this podcast Would you just take a moment right now and text somebody or post it on Instagram and just share the podcast Either the episode that you're listening to or one that really affected you Maybe put it in your church Facebook group or share it out put it in the Sunday Flyer or whatever you use there, but that's how people can learn about this and we can share the love.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, would you mind doing that?
Caesar Kalinowski:And also, I want to just thank our sponsor Missio Publishing and invite you to check out their resources.
Caesar Kalinowski:As you start thinking of the year ahead and what your groups, your small groups, your mission communities are gonna do, you'll definitely want to go over to missiopublishing.
Caesar Kalinowski:com.
Caesar Kalinowski:Check out the resources they offer there.
Caesar Kalinowski:Either for your own heart to get ready and maybe for leadership or even some of the primers or different tools you can use in community all together.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, now I want to get to our topic today.
Caesar Kalinowski:Heath and I had a great discussion about how people perceive what our gospel is based on how it's presented and especially as it has to do with our Sunday morning services.
Caesar Kalinowski:Have you ever wondered what your average person, maybe someone who's not grown up in the church, but they roll into a Sunday service, you know, Sunday morning, what would they think Jesus and the gospel is all about based on what they see, hear, and experience?
Caesar Kalinowski:There's all kinds of cues and different things going on.
Caesar Kalinowski:What would your friends think that Jesus is all about if they visited just your Sunday church service?
Caesar Kalinowski:Is the way you're often doing church really communicating what you think it is?
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, please, please, please do not think that just because we're We're critiquing the medium here a little bit, that we're anti church services or gathering together as a large family.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's not true at all.
Caesar Kalinowski:But I do think that it's a very real possibility that the way we put on many of our gatherings may be confusing people or misleading them without us knowing it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Listen in now as Heath and I talk about all of this.
Caesar Kalinowski:If someone would just like kind of walked into your church, first time, like they just out of the blue and they're like, man, I got to find this guy and I got to know God and I gotta, I gotta get something sorted out in my life and everything's wrong and screwed up or I'm ruining my life.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's like, what are they going to think we're about?
Heath Hollensbe:That's a good question, right?
Heath Hollensbe:And cards on the table and most listeners know, like you're not currently working in a church.
Heath Hollensbe:You have had history working in large churches.
Heath Hollensbe:I worked at a large church in the area.
Heath Hollensbe:And so we know.
Heath Hollensbe:I still sit in plenty of church services.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, absolutely.
Heath Hollensbe:Part of the
Caesar Kalinowski:church, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, but yeah, I'm not leading one Yeah, used to work at a megachurch.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah as part of the whole production Hmm staff and team.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, right and learned
Caesar Kalinowski:a lot.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, that was
Heath Hollensbe:so do you think that the way That we're currently doing church or the way that we often do church really communicates what we think it is communicating Especially to visitors or folks just wanting to kind of check things out
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, I don't think it is.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, I think we'd be surprised.
Caesar Kalinowski:I think if we were to Just, you know, exit poll, you know, or exit interview, like what's going on there.
Caesar Kalinowski:Let me, I'm gonna, let me go, let me go into some detail of some things.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Let me get a little psychology behind some of how we perceive things and how we perceive communication and all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Is, there's a question I want to ask, is the form in which we receive a message as important as the message itself?
Caesar Kalinowski:Hmm.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Makes sense.
Caesar Kalinowski:In other words, if going to church and all kinds of different services and different denominations and different traditions, if that's all just like preference, you know, and historical stuff and traditional, that's the question.
Caesar Kalinowski:Is the form though, in which we receive a message as important as the message itself?
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Cool.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, so there's this guy, philosopher and author Marshall McLuhan, and he argued that throughout history, what has been communicated is at times less important than the specific medium through which we communicate that message.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm probably tipping my hand to folks listening today.
Caesar Kalinowski:So the technology, the choices and methods that transfer or transmit the message changes us.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it changes culture and it changes those who receive it and even more so as someone like I said Who I used to work for and help lead, you know Large Tractional Church and I was head of the production for their Sunday services this Maxim the McLuhan, you know proposes It's always intrigued me and in my gut.
Caesar Kalinowski:I think he's absolutely correct.
Caesar Kalinowski:The medium is very much If not more so, the message.
Caesar Kalinowski:And some of our listeners might have heard that the medium is the message.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:I really think the guy's on to it.
Caesar Kalinowski:I think he's right.
Caesar Kalinowski:The medium is very much, if not more so, the message.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I've often wondered what your average person, uh, or someone who's not grown up in the church, where they kind of can do a little bit of filtering and a little bit of translation.
Caesar Kalinowski:They roll into a service on Sunday morning.
Caesar Kalinowski:What would they think that Jesus and the gospel is all about based on what they see and they hear?
Caesar Kalinowski:And they experience, meaning the medium.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like what would they think based on what they see, hear and experience?
Heath Hollensbe:Man, that is really fascinating.
Heath Hollensbe:So, uh, let's talk for the people that are maybe having a hard time right now, grasping some of this, right?
Heath Hollensbe:Maybe we can talk through some practical and familiar practices that we do and how it might be actually communicating a mixed message.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, so this is a bit of a cricketer, but not so much.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:So think about it from, from a person's perspective, they're walking into I'm going to say your average church service, and I know there's a lot of differences, but we've all grown up in and what most churches aspire to, pretty similar stuff, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:So you walk in, you're greeted by a person, they're usually wearing a special badge of some sort, they hand you a program, they direct you to your seat, okay?
Caesar Kalinowski:Think about it, a badge, program, directions.
Caesar Kalinowski:What does that medium communicate?
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Then once you're seated, the service begins, lights, camera, action, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:The band kicks it in and MC of some sort kind of tells us what we're going to experience today and we're led through three or four songs and most people would not know from their normal life.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, it's not like, wow, that's that new U2 song, or that's that new, you know, Coldplay, you know, so they're going to, they're going to be led, led through some songs with words on a screen.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's not, you know, like you do in all of life, never, you know what I mean?
Caesar Kalinowski:And by a professional band, you know, on microphones and they're using amplifiers, all pretty polished up.
Caesar Kalinowski:You can tell it's very rehearsed.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's all well lit.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so.
Caesar Kalinowski:Is Christianity a well crafted and timed out production?
Caesar Kalinowski:Is Jesus going to walk out on stage soon?
Caesar Kalinowski:That'd be cool.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like maybe this is all because he's showing up, you know, in the flesh.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, not Jesus himself.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Whoops.
Caesar Kalinowski:I wish, but someone special comes out and they then talk for like three to 45 or 60 minutes.
Caesar Kalinowski:And this is If I'm just like watching, I'm going, this must be an important person.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, the light is shining right on him from the balcony the entire time.
Caesar Kalinowski:And this is apparently pretty important stuff he's talking about because everyone in the room is sitting in silence, listening.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and a lot of them are just cranking out the notes.
Caesar Kalinowski:They're just taking copious notes.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, a few more songs at the end, some announcements about programs you can sign up for, usually a nominal cost is associated with some of those.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, and then an opportunity to give your money to those who are putting on the production.
Caesar Kalinowski:And they tell the guests not to worry about this part, but, you know, this whole thing has got to be pretty expensive, you're thinking.
Caesar Kalinowski:To pull it off every week.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wait a minute.
Caesar Kalinowski:Some of these churches run this thing multiple times every weekend.
Caesar Kalinowski:They must be tired.
Caesar Kalinowski:These people, these poor people run this.
Caesar Kalinowski:Are they all getting paid?
Caesar Kalinowski:And now that it's over, pretty much everyone else sitting in the seats with us, they just rush out the door back to their cars and normal lives, I guess.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, like I said, that's a bit of a caricature.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:But unfortunately, it's pretty accurate in most cases.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Would you say?
Caesar Kalinowski:Absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:So think about it.
Caesar Kalinowski:The medium.
Caesar Kalinowski:Here's the medium.
Caesar Kalinowski:In other words, like, what did, what was used to get across this amazing message of Christ?
Caesar Kalinowski:Assigned greeters, programs, road seating, staging, props, lighting, sound, a few special people doing most of the communication, little to no personal interaction or participation.
Caesar Kalinowski:So then what's the message that might be being received there?
Caesar Kalinowski:Jesus, the church and Christianity must be a rehearsed production that is crafted by a few to show the many how to live or what to think.
Caesar Kalinowski:Or maybe it's not even that far.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's, it's just somewhat cheesy entertainment or something.
Caesar Kalinowski:You're our guest and there's no obligation.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Super welcoming like that way.
Caesar Kalinowski:And when I contrast that to what I read about the original followers of Jesus in the early church.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:I gotta be honest, I'm pretty awestruck by the contrast, bro.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:So how do our churches look different than the way Jesus was doing things and even acts?
Heath Hollensbe:And
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, am I going too far here or what I described there?
Caesar Kalinowski:Is that pretty accurate?
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, I think you're
Caesar Kalinowski:absolutely, you know, I mean, either up, up at a few steps or downgraded a few steps as far as production value, but
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, and that's I think one of my issues with like it doesn't feel very local as well like you you know All most churches are singing the same songs.
Heath Hollensbe:They're all getting their artwork from the same website down in California and I mean I could be in Chicago or Florida or Alaska or Toronto or Southern California and not know any difference because there's no Uniqueness to the, to the feel, you know,
Caesar Kalinowski:there again, coming back to that snap line, that, that sort of level of is the medium, the message and the ways we're communicating and all of that, even if it's like we go, well, that is, that's kind of how it is.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I don't know if that's how people perceive it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like what you just asked is really important.
Caesar Kalinowski:Heath, like, let's compare and contrast it to like, what was the early churches medium?
Caesar Kalinowski:Cause let's just say we have the same message or we want to have the same message, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:So.
Caesar Kalinowski:Acts 2 verses, uh, 42 to 47 say this, they go, so this is how we, there's a little picture of what the early church was doing.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:So this is their medium.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, they devoted themselves to the apostles teaching and to fellowship, that means hanging out together.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, to the breaking of bread.
Caesar Kalinowski:So having meals and praying.
Caesar Kalinowski:Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles.
Caesar Kalinowski:And all the believers were together and had everything in common.
Caesar Kalinowski:They sold the properties and possessions to give to anyone who had need.
Caesar Kalinowski:And every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts.
Caesar Kalinowski:which was kind of like at the mall or outside a store or, you know, where they did their daily business.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:They broke bread in homes, meaning they had meals in homes and they ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people.
Caesar Kalinowski:Those people didn't think they were jerks for living this way, generously sharing meals.
Caesar Kalinowski:They weren't hated for that or excluded.
Caesar Kalinowski:And the Lord added to the number daily, those who were being saved.
Caesar Kalinowski:So what was the medium there in acts homes?
Caesar Kalinowski:Daily Meals, Serving Others, Praying, Learning Together, Miraculous Signs and Healings, and then Organic Growth.
Heath Hollensbe:Growth!
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:Having
Caesar Kalinowski:everything
Heath Hollensbe:in common.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:Selling property to give to those who had, to fulfill needs.
Heath Hollensbe:So what's
Caesar Kalinowski:the message that comes from that medium?
Caesar Kalinowski:This is a family, and we're in this together.
Caesar Kalinowski:Because of Jesus, we have God's favor on our lives every day of the week.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're living it out all day, every day.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's, that's what that medium would be.
Caesar Kalinowski:Homes, daily meals, serving, miraculous signs and healing, growth.
Caesar Kalinowski:You're like, we're a family.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're in this together.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is really good news.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and I know some who hear this are going to think me harsh, you know, like I'm, I'm, but I'm, I think I'm drawing fair contrast here.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, but I've asked my non Christian friends what they think about, you know, our church churches and our services and what they think it's all about.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you know what?
Caesar Kalinowski:This is actually pretty soft accounting of their, of their impressions.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, it's interesting
Heath Hollensbe:too, cause then you think in light of what you had painted as the medium a few moments ago, basically we've, all we've done is we've asked the church The lay people in the congregation, the biggest call challenge to them is, Hey, go out, invite your friends, maybe hand out a flyer to your neighbor and try to get them to this cool performance that the professionals are putting.
Heath Hollensbe:You're the audience, get more people to join you in the audience.
Heath Hollensbe:You don't need to make disciples,
Caesar Kalinowski:leave it to the pros.
Caesar Kalinowski:All we need you to do is hand out flyers and try to.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're going to see Brian Setzer.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's going to be a killer show.
Caesar Kalinowski:And if you really like him, you're going to get more people to come to the show.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's, that's it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, that's cool for a Setzer show,
Heath Hollensbe:right?
Heath Hollensbe:But even here, like we're reading Acts 2 and as you're, as you're reading it, I'm sitting here going no, he's exaggerating some of these words like every day They weren't together every day and then I literally open up the text right here and it says every day.
Heath Hollensbe:I'm not making it up Yeah,
Caesar Kalinowski:this is not just allegory.
Caesar Kalinowski:Life is a family life and community.
Caesar Kalinowski:Look at the difference in the medium That's all that's that's what today's, you know episodes about is we're saying if the medium is really the message We may not be communicating to people What we think and here's the thing we have to wonder why is the church been in a pretty rapid decline For the last several decades could it be the people our medium is really working well and it but it's not communicating a message That is the same message that Jesus communicated and his people communicated through their lives every day It has to be, that has to be at least part of it.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, and I've said, I've said before, if it was just one more killer church service and sermon that we needed, the whole world had been saved long ago.
Caesar Kalinowski:Cause, cause I'll tell you, there's, man, there's a lot of churches that are doing really good.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like man, their bands are crushing it and they're staging and lighting right and preaching.
Caesar Kalinowski:Oh, there's so much good preaching Yeah, and I'm actually I'm not actually against all that what I'm advocating for is Is there a call is there is there need is it time to start to kind of check the medium a little bit and go?
Caesar Kalinowski:Have we slipped into things and trying to compete with the world thinking that's what'll do it Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's what'll get them.
Caesar Kalinowski:If we can like win at their game, instead of saying, no, no, no, we were given this most beautiful thing of being the family of God and sharing our things and living generously and having God's favor upon our lives and, and watching how people are super attracted that that's never going to change and go away.
Caesar Kalinowski:But we've somehow decided to know we can do a better job by competing with like entertainment and all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I'll be honest with you, man, uh, like I said, there's some pretty slick productions out there, but I've never.
Caesar Kalinowski:it as hard as when we saw Setzer last week.
Caesar Kalinowski:No way.
Caesar Kalinowski:Never.
Caesar Kalinowski:Not even close.
Caesar Kalinowski:The whole vibe of it.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know what I mean?
Caesar Kalinowski:The whole thing was just like, whoa.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know what I mean?
Caesar Kalinowski:You could never.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then let's pull it off completely uniquely every week.
Caesar Kalinowski:Impossible.
Caesar Kalinowski:So I don't think we're impressing anybody.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's not because people don't want to, quote, go to church or they want to be a part of the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:They want to be a part of a family.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I think we get to get back to that.
Caesar Kalinowski:I really do.
Caesar Kalinowski:So
Heath Hollensbe:what a question.
Heath Hollensbe:So please, again, I just have
Caesar Kalinowski:to say it to our listeners.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm not advocating, don't go to church services and don't invite people to churches.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm advocating for checkout is the medium, the message and what you're showing and what people are experiencing.
Caesar Kalinowski:Is it communicating what you think it is?
Caesar Kalinowski:That's what I'm, that's what I'm saying here.
Heath Hollensbe:So a question for you is, what would you say to people?
Heath Hollensbe:Cause I've, I've heard even In my life, people that go, you know, acts two is it was a honeymoon stage of the church, or it was the initial kickoff that the church needed to be.
Heath Hollensbe:There's no, I don't have schedules to meet every day.
Heath Hollensbe:That's not really for us in the here and now.
Heath Hollensbe:You think that still applies to us at the church?
Caesar Kalinowski:That's just ridiculous.
Caesar Kalinowski:You got, if you look at the whole story of scripture from Genesis forward, all the way through the history of Israel, then up through.
Caesar Kalinowski:Not not only including acts, but even what was being addressed in the epistles through acts There wasn't a honeymoon period if it was it was a honeymoon period that lasted for decades and decades and decades You know, I mean, yeah this is Well, no, I mean, yeah, just in the New Testament, it was decades and decades.
Caesar Kalinowski:If you look from Genesis forward up through all the epistles being written and all that, you're talking thousands and thousands a year of God revealing himself through a family narrative, a father who sends a son to take a bride and have many, many children.
Caesar Kalinowski:Brothers and Sisters and Offspring to fill the world with his glory.
Caesar Kalinowski:That was in a honeymoon period.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was the consummation of what God always intended his people to be like.
Caesar Kalinowski:And there's only about a billion verses where he says that exact same thing to Israel.
Caesar Kalinowski:And the consummation of the church was the beginning of a people who now, forgiven and indwelt by God's spirit, could actually live that out and become the family that God always desired and created us to be and then offer that to a really needy, needy world who was created for that same thing.
Heath Hollensbe:So how would you, um, encourage church staff to work towards correcting some of these issues?
Heath Hollensbe:Like how do we find more clarity and alignment between the message and the medium?
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, uh, this is probably, I'll probably pop the top off as something that could be a longer discussion, but you know, I always wished that there was like in the New Testament.
Caesar Kalinowski:I really wished that we would have just a list.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hey, you know what?
Caesar Kalinowski:It really is.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is what you do.
Caesar Kalinowski:You do three songs at the front of the service and you do some announcements and then you preach a little, you do a couple more tunes and you take the offering, you know, I wish it was just laid out and we could go, well, there it is.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, but I think we actually did get that in many ways.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, and you can look at it, Old Testament all the way again, like I said, from Genesis sort of forward.
Caesar Kalinowski:I think that what we see is that when the people of God have gathered, Both Old Testament and, you know, Jesus and his disciples.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then, and then seeing how they replicated his life through the book of Acts and all the epistles and all that is what we see is we see that what they did, what they experienced and what they offered was both a reminder.
Caesar Kalinowski:and a demonstration who God is and what he's like and how we now get to live every day all year, or all week, all year.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:So a reminder in a demonstration.
Caesar Kalinowski:So think about it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Go back, go back with me.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, in the law, God made it mandated to Israel, um, a series of festivals and feasts and things throughout the year.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was part of the law.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is how you're to live.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:And every one of them was both a reminder and a demonstration.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was a reminder of, of who God was and how he provided for them.
Caesar Kalinowski:Let's, so let's just pick one, like, uh, the Feast of First Fruits.
Caesar Kalinowski:They would bring to God first fruits as an offering, but then they'd throw this giant party and pretty much eat it all up, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, drink the wine and all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so it was a reminder that God is generous and God's a provider God.
Caesar Kalinowski:He's a good dad.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it was a demonstration that it's not only once a week, but we can live our lives generously all week and all year.
Caesar Kalinowski:Because this is our same dad.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's not going to go away.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is a reminder of who he is to us, and it's a demonstration of how we get to live all year, and it's a reminder and demonstration to a watching world.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is who dad's like.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you can go through every single one of the feasts, and they all follow this pattern of a reminder and a demonstration.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now let's jump ahead to Jesus with his disciples.
Heath Hollensbe:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, just pinnacle, pinnacle gathering with his, with his 12.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was the last supper.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, he was with him a lot.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was always, it was always in the same medium.
Caesar Kalinowski:I said earlier, the ax head in homes, out in marketplaces, um, out in the temple courts, breaking bread, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:But the pinnacle one had to be the Last Supper.
Caesar Kalinowski:Jesus pulls it all together around a meal, a traditional, classic, historical meal of Passover.
Caesar Kalinowski:And he says to him, he takes the bread and he thanks dad for it, thanks the father for it.
Caesar Kalinowski:And he takes wine and they're pointing the meal and he thanks God for it.
Caesar Kalinowski:And he says, like, whenever you eat together, do this.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like there was eat and drink, what, in remembrance of me.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's that reminder, part of the reminder and demonstration, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:And then it was a demonstration.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is my body.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's going to be broken for you.
Caesar Kalinowski:In other words, I'm laying my life down for you.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's a demonstration of his love and how we now get to live, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:And this is my blood poured out.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm pouring out my life that you would have life.
Caesar Kalinowski:That meal was a reminder and a demonstration.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then he says, do this, do that.
Caesar Kalinowski:In remembrance of me.
Caesar Kalinowski:In remembrance of me.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, I mean, I'm not making this up.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, let's jump ahead to Acts, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, what, what were they doing?
Caesar Kalinowski:What was, we just read it in Acts.
Caesar Kalinowski:What were they doing?
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and what was the primary way the early church gathered?
Caesar Kalinowski:If you don't know it, I mean, I'm not a church historian, but, um, many of our listeners know this.
Caesar Kalinowski:Church services and church gatherings were always around a meal.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:And they were primarily gathered around a meal.
Caesar Kalinowski:communion together.
Caesar Kalinowski:That was really why they got together.
Caesar Kalinowski:They, they took Jesus word seriously and they took his reminder and his demonstration of how they got to live.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it says they did this every day together.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:They remembered him through meals.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so they lived out this reminder and a demonstration, a reminder of who God is.
Caesar Kalinowski:What he's done, what's true of us now because of that, and then a demonstration of how we get to live.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and, and it becomes this demonstration to others too.
Caesar Kalinowski:Talk about the medium is the message, man.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so your question of how, you know, how, how does the church staff work towards correcting these issues?
Caesar Kalinowski:I'd say, look at what you're doing in your church services.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm not here to tell anybody what they should or shouldn't do in their church services and ask yourself, is it?
Caesar Kalinowski:Either a reminder and it's supposed to be both and is it a reminder and a demonstration of how we get to live in all of life?
Caesar Kalinowski:So for instance I used to be a worship leader, but, and I know you are one, but is sitting in rows singing songs that aren't from our normal life, you know, with words on a screen, something that's a demonstration of how we get to live in all of life every day.
Caesar Kalinowski:Probably not for most people.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, they're not going to set up screens in their houses, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:They're not.
Caesar Kalinowski:But would a meal be, you know, so, so there's all kinds of things.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm not going to, but take all the things that you do as a church, as a church community, and not just on Sundays, programs, programming throughout the week, summer, you know, summer programming, you know, men's and women's ministries, and ask yourself, is it a reminder of who God is and what he's done for us?
Caesar Kalinowski:And is it a demonstration Of how we now, because of what he, who he is and what he's done, get to live all year.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and would it be a demonstration to the watching world?
Caesar Kalinowski:And I know some people will say, well, you know, when we sing and we worship God, that's a, that's a reminder of his glory and that's a demonstration that we believe it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, sort of.
Caesar Kalinowski:In in all of life.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, in all of life we should worship God.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yes.
Caesar Kalinowski:But you see what I'm saying?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I'm not, like I said, I'm not here to point out or try to tell everybody you should or shouldn't do this.
Caesar Kalinowski:I don't think so.
Caesar Kalinowski:And in traditions we have are important.
Caesar Kalinowski:They're not as important as scripture.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:They, they are important.
Caesar Kalinowski:They bring meaning to us.
Caesar Kalinowski:But again, if the medium is the message, if the way we're delivering this amazing good news does have bearing, if not prominence, in how people receive the message and what we're actually trying to communicate about God and about Jesus and his life and now our life because of him, it does affect it, then we, we, I think we get to, we need to ask these questions.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:So what would you say are some steps moving forward, or maybe even some guide posts, if you will, that will allow us to make sure that once we start making some of these corrections that we're.
Heath Hollensbe:Actually staying on track.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, I mean I back there again back to the reminder and demonstration discussion Have that discussion as a staff and team if you dare Yeah You know We do a lot of training in around the country around the world on this and and I and I have this discussion with people I go like and what kind of things in your in your church, would you say right now?
Caesar Kalinowski:We're doing I believe they definitely are a reminder in a demonstration Cause not everything is not.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm not saying that.
Caesar Kalinowski:So like, like list those things.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's both a reminder of who God is, what he's like, and what he's done for us.
Caesar Kalinowski:And a demonstration of how we then get to live because of that.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's a demonstration to a watching world.
Caesar Kalinowski:Which things for sure are that?
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then make a list of which things are probably not either or both of those.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then ask yourself, could they be?
Caesar Kalinowski:Could they be re infused with meaning?
Caesar Kalinowski:Maybe we should not be doing them, really.
Caesar Kalinowski:Maybe we're just purely doing them because we've always done it and it really has nothing to do with Jesus or his life or the way his people, you know, the disciples of the early church lived.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, the other thing is I want to reiterate.
Caesar Kalinowski:I want to say is language creates culture.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like you'll, you, you know, I use the word church services here, but when I was leading church, we didn't call them services.
Caesar Kalinowski:When I hear services, I right away go like, Oh, I gotta get my breaks done.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's time to get that oil change.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, it's like, it's.
Caesar Kalinowski:They're a family reunion.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's a family gathering, you know, calling people the, you know, calling the building the church bad.
Caesar Kalinowski:We've talked about that
Heath Hollensbe:before on the show.
Heath Hollensbe:I've even done that with like the words, like call the worship, like now, now's when you start worshiping and you'll end it when the service is over.
Heath Hollensbe:It's
Caesar Kalinowski:like, I have
Heath Hollensbe:friend that
Caesar Kalinowski:he had to, he had to, and there again was tradition.
Caesar Kalinowski:He had to stand up and say, okay, exactly like this, all rise.
Caesar Kalinowski:for the giving of the benediction.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now I know we're ticking off some people right now here in this, cause I go, I, we say that every week, you know, but I'm like, wait a minute.
Caesar Kalinowski:Where do you hear Jesus saying anything like that?
Caesar Kalinowski:Where do you see Paul saying that where anything early church all rise for the giving of the benediction?
Caesar Kalinowski:I don't.
Caesar Kalinowski:I don't even know what that means.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:It sounds like a military thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:I do, but not, you know, I don't, but it's just like, what, how about say this?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, Hey, before we go, let's just like hug it out and let's, let me give you a last blessing.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, you know, there's one more blessing and that blessing is going to be a reminder of who God is.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's going to be a demonstration for all of life.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, I hope, right.
Caesar Kalinowski:I hope that really.
Caesar Kalinowski:Help you just live this out all week, but it's things like that.
Caesar Kalinowski:So language creates culture.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's a big one.
Caesar Kalinowski:So think about the words we use.
Caesar Kalinowski:And there again, someone's walking in cold, you know, they weren't raised in this country.
Caesar Kalinowski:They weren't raised going to church.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was like, you know, my great grandmother used to go to church and it wasn't even, it wasn't even evangelical.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was a mainline thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was Catholic.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was a little, it was totally different than, you know, this.
Caesar Kalinowski:They walk in, what are they hearing?
Caesar Kalinowski:What are they seeing?
Caesar Kalinowski:What's that language saying to them?
Caesar Kalinowski:I, this is, this is the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's a building.
Caesar Kalinowski:Or is the church the show or is the church people and is the, are these people a family and, and then are we a family of sent ones?
Caesar Kalinowski:Are we missionaries sent to serve all, you know, so language creates culture.
Caesar Kalinowski:So I'd say those two things is to, to be bold enough to have the conversation around.
Caesar Kalinowski:What are we doing?
Caesar Kalinowski:That clearly is a reminder and demonstration.
Caesar Kalinowski:Accurately.
Caesar Kalinowski:And the watching world would pick up on it right away.
Caesar Kalinowski:They'd get up.
Caesar Kalinowski:I get, I get what being a means to be a Christian.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is what you live like.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is beautiful, you know, and check your language.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, you know, you don't, you don't have to call it the narthex man, you know, or whatever a lobby, you know, it's like, Oh, this is, that's what theaters have.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, we kind of set up our church building as a theater.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, that might be a problem too.
Caesar Kalinowski:Is there ways to minimize that?
Caesar Kalinowski:Could we see, could we be seated where we can see each other?
Caesar Kalinowski:Could there be dialogue?
Caesar Kalinowski:Can we discuss some of these things before we go?
Caesar Kalinowski:Could we eat some stuff?
Caesar Kalinowski:You get to ask those questions.
Caesar Kalinowski:And remember, by the way.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, boy, I'd be remiss if I didn't say this.
Caesar Kalinowski:The things that the early church did that were a reminder of who God was and a demonstration of how to live an all of life were so that they could accomplish the mission of the church, which is always and only make disciples of Jesus.
Caesar Kalinowski:So if what we're doing, we could say, well, it's a reminder of who God's like in a demonstration, discipleship.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, then I think we have to put it on the maybe why
Heath Hollensbe:list,
Caesar Kalinowski:right?
Caesar Kalinowski:I think we get to, I'm not here to tell anybody what that is, but if they're bold enough to have that conversation, reminder to demonstration and it's accomplishing the mission.
Caesar Kalinowski:Think about it, if what we're doing when we gather doesn't accomplish the mission of Christ, but we're his church and we've been given that mission, that'd be like, you know, um, yeah, you know, Walmart's decided that they're no longer selling any kind of products.
Caesar Kalinowski:So now what you're going to experience when you go to Walmart, it's a, it's a water park.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's a theme water park.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, but I go to Walmart for something else.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, not anymore.
Caesar Kalinowski:Huh?
Caesar Kalinowski:Not anymore.
Caesar Kalinowski:You have to buy stuff elsewhere.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know what I mean?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, so if the church is supposed to show us what God's like and how we get to live and that's part of discipleship, but we don't do a lot of that, maybe we get to reconsider some of that stuff.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's great, right?
Heath Hollensbe:Caesar, what are the big three takeaways for this week?
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, There again, I try to have these follow like head, heart, hands, like what we need to know and what we get to believe and then how we can live.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so I'll be, I'll be concise though here because I think I was preaching today a little bit.
Caesar Kalinowski:so first one is assigned greeters, rowed seating, staging, lights, and sound are all awesome for a rock concert.
Caesar Kalinowski:But they may not be helping to show people what our heavenly dad and his son and this life as Christians is really all about.
Caesar Kalinowski:A few special people who do most of the work, do most of the communication with really little to no personal, you know, interaction or participation, is not what the early church and those, you know, who are being exposed to it were experiencing together.
Heath Hollensbe:Hmm.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's good, man.
Caesar Kalinowski:Just, just know that.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, it's, that's not conjecture.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's not just opinion that you won't find any of that.
Heath Hollensbe:Okay.
Heath Hollensbe:I should probably stop taking like the selfies with the pedal boards in
Caesar Kalinowski:the,
Heath Hollensbe:in the audience in the background.
Caesar Kalinowski:Not if it's at a rock concert.
Caesar Kalinowski:Anyway, um, second, um, believe this.
Caesar Kalinowski:The church is a family and we're in this together.
Caesar Kalinowski:Because of Jesus, we have God's favor on our lives all week, all week, not just when we're singing and mostly in key and our hands are raised at the right points or when we kneel at the right points, whatever this, this is all really good news.
Caesar Kalinowski:Our homes, daily meals, serving together, praying, learning, signs and healing, organic growth.
Caesar Kalinowski:These are the mediums of a life of a family.
Caesar Kalinowski:A family that can change the world.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that kind of leads me to my third point.
Caesar Kalinowski:People are literally dying for relationship.
Caesar Kalinowski:Church is in a decline and everybody wants what we've, we've been given.
Caesar Kalinowski:They just, our medium is not giving it to them.
Caesar Kalinowski:So with you and more, they're dying with relationships with you.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I, but more importantly with God.
Caesar Kalinowski:So it's fine to have parts of our church services that are tradition and they bring great meaning to us, the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's nothing wrong with that, but everything the church is supposed to be about is Jesus mission of making disciples and disciple making happens.
Caesar Kalinowski:in relationship.
Caesar Kalinowski:So look for ways to saturate your church services with relational step on points for people beyond Sunday morning.
Caesar Kalinowski:So if big Sunday morning is your tradition, start to infuse it with relational step on points and then also over your table and over a cup of coffee and you can begin to show them much more what our dad's like.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:I think one of the best examples of that was our buddy Josh.
Heath Hollensbe:he actually showed up to the church that I serve with.
Heath Hollensbe:And it was like his first week and he was going in engaging with people and he invited him over to the house for a Sounders game that afternoon.
Heath Hollensbe:It's like hey.
Heath Hollensbe:Bing right away.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, like you're new here.
Heath Hollensbe:This is my first week, too You want to come over to my house and watch a game tonight?
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's so along with this week's big three when people download it I'm gonna go ahead and put a link in there too for 10 we have this like assessment that's called 10 benchmarks of a healthy missional church.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah It's an assessment like a church can take.
Caesar Kalinowski:And this assessment will help you kind of reorder and refocus your church's efforts toward true missional growth as well, and increased incarnational presence in your neighborhood or city.
Caesar Kalinowski:So we'll go ahead and we'll give you the big three and I'll throw in the 10 benchmarks assessment.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:But you got to download the big three to get that tool, correct?
Caesar Kalinowski:That's right.
Caesar Kalinowski:And as always, you can get a printable PDF of this week's Big Three as a free download by going to everydaydisciple.
Caesar Kalinowski:com forward slash big three.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's everydaydisciple.
Caesar Kalinowski:com forward slash big three.
Caesar Kalinowski:Also, if you're interested in learning a full framework for discipleship and mission, and you'd like someone to walk alongside and show you all that, coach you in that, encourage you, bring some accountability to setting all this up and really starting to live this way, I'd I would love to help you.
Caesar Kalinowski:I like to get together, tell you a little bit about our coaching, maybe hop on a zoom call or something like that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Just go over to everyday disciple.
Caesar Kalinowski:com forward slash coaching.
Caesar Kalinowski:You can learn more about that and you can also fill out a little mini form that'll contact me and we can set up a time that we can talk.
Caesar Kalinowski:All right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, time is up for today.
Caesar Kalinowski:Join us again next week or go back through our hundreds of episodes.
Caesar Kalinowski:To continue to learn discipleship as a lifestyle in everyday life and how the good news of the gospel speaks into everything naturally and powerfully.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'll talk to you soon.
Heath Hollensbe:Thanks for joining us today.
Heath Hollensbe:For more information on this show and to get loads of free discipleship resources, visit EverydayDisciple.
Heath Hollensbe:com.
Heath Hollensbe:And remember, you really can live with the spiritual freedom and relational peace that Jesus promised every day.
