This episode is an interview with Diffwys Criafol (she/her) a former anarchist organiser, mother and writer who is writing in order to process class-related trauma and how our social movements are so anthemic to working class people. 

In this episode we discuss narratives around class, how they can flatten people’s experiences, concepts such as the underclass and how people can co-occupy several oppressions and desperate situations that are barriers to making life stable. We talk about how class and trauma are completely intertwined and what ‘recovery’ is meant to mean when in active trauma and when trauma is not just in the past. Finally we touch on solidarity and redistributing resources and how to challenge a class based society. Plus so much more!

Links & resources from this episode

• https://twitter.com/DiffwysCriafol
• https://diffwys.substack.com/
• No Births Behind Bars
• Herbalism, PTSD & Traumatic Stress Course

Books mentioned in this episode

• Chav Solidarity, D. Hunter
• The Enemy is Middle Class, Andy Anderson
• Chavs, Owen Jones
• A Nation of Shopkeepers: The Unstoppable Rise of the Petty Bourgeoisie, Dan Evans 
• Trauma and Recovery, Judith Herman

Find them all at solidarityapothecary.org/podcast/

Support the show

Music from Sole & DJ Pain – Battle of Humans | Plant illustrations by @amani_writes | In solidarity, please subscribe, rate & review this podcast wherever you listen.

Welcome to the Frontline Herbalism podcast with your host Nicole Rose from the Solidarity Apothecary.

This is your place for all things plants and liberation.

Let's get started.

Hello, welcome back to the Frontline Herbalism podcast.

This is another interview in the series exploring the politics of trauma, where we're looking at the kind of different forces that shape our lives and that can shape our bodies and our nervous systems.

And in this episode, we're going to be talking all about class.

So we're going to be Yeah, I'm going to be interviewing one of my close friends, my bestie.

So she's using the name Troise Cleaveau and she will laugh at me and my pronunciation, even though I was literally born in Wales and half my family speak Welsh, but I can't.

I need to, I need to learn Welsh badly, but yeah, we, you know, it's kind of informal because we're really old close friends, but we've had so many conversations about class over the years.

And I really wanted to have her on the show to talk about kind of class and how it connects to trauma.

So yeah, we explore different things you know, how this kind of sort of analysis of if you sell your labor, your working class can, you know, bring some kind of unity and struggle, but can also really flatten people's experiences and kind of erase some of the quite serious differences between people's life experiences.

We talk about concepts like the underclass, you know, where people are kind of occupying like different kind of, you know, several different kinds of oppressions and different kind of desperate situations and have, you know, many barriers to like making life stable.

We talk about middle class culture and how a lot of it is built on kind of furthering oneself and social mobility and less about like class solidarity and looking after each other.

We talk about, you know, kind of not leaving people behind and like what kind of yeah, showing up for each other looks like.

Yeah, we talk about like kind of class safety nets, you know, just, yeah, recovering from trauma while still in the midst of kind of, you know, like challenging.

like life experiences, right?

And yeah, we also talk about, yeah, how, how people are like, very stigmatized and different forms of prejudice.

But yeah, there's all, all the things, basically, we kind of go through loads of different questions around class and trauma and experiences in different anarchist movements.

And, you know, what would a kind of focus on class really look like in terms of like, actual solidarity and mutual aid.

So I'm extremely grateful for her time.

I hope you find the interview interesting.

I hope if you're from a more working class background, maybe you find it validating and helpful.

And if you're not, then maybe it's also You know, interesting to hear and interesting to lean into different perspectives.

You know, I just want to say, like, this isn't an academic approach, right?

Like, we're not talking about like, socioeconomic theory and all this stuff.

Like, we're talking about class as, like, a lived experience.

And I also want to Like preface that that like, you know, we're talking about it in this like kind of England and Wales context, which, you know, where we do have like vast amounts of privilege compared to most of the planet, but you know, we still live in like a heavily class stratified society.

So yeah, I just wanted to kind of name that.

You know, we talk about how class intersects with different oppressions, but we're also both white and cis and fairly able bodied.

So yeah, there's kind of like more nuance there.

But anyway, we dive into all that stuff during the interview.

Yeah, I really hope you find it interesting.

I'll put some of the books she mentions in the show notes.

So you can check those out.

And yeah, I hope, I hope you, I hope you learn something.

Okay.

Thank you so much for being here and giving me your kind of time and energy today.

Please, can you introduce yourself, your pronouns, like any kind of political affinities or projects you'd like to include?

Like I know we'll do like a much longer introduction, but I just wondered if you could share a little bit about who you are.

Yeah, my pronouns are she, her.

Like, over the years I've been involved with different groups.

But two years ago I had my daughter.

And yeah, I wasn't able to be part of yeah, radical movement in the way that I was before.

But I did manage to get to a few things organized by Birth Beyond Bars, which is a really great group campaigning for the end of imprisonment for pregnant people.

And I also was part of like campaigning to drop the charges against the young people in Cardiff that were criminalized for the riots caused by police.

Causing the death of two, two children basically in Ely in Cardiff.

So yeah, and at the moment I'm just trying my best to, trying to work out how to be part of a movement for change but in a way that.

Like, I can manage because I've got to earn money to live and to pay for childcare to be able to do anything.

So I'm basically trying to yeah, write and mainly about yeah, inter class experience and in, in radical movements often.

So yeah, that's it.

Amazing.

Thank you so much for being here.

So yeah, so we're going to be talking about trauma and class today.

Yeah, and I know those are like really huge topics.

And yeah, I'm obviously like really proud that like I've known you a long time and like we're super close friends and been through a lot together.

But for like people who don't know you, who haven't had that pleasure, can you share a little bit more about yourself, like whatever you feel comfortable sharing, like just kind of like for context?

Yeah, sure.

Well, I met Nicole when We were doing something against the name NATO Summit in Newport in 2014.

And at the time my brother was in prison and, you know, it was kind of felt a lonely experience to have.

You know, families go through these kinds of things, and in the kind of anarchist, activist, whatever scene, they weren't the people like that.

So, when I met Nicole, something sort of clicked, and I got involved in the Empty Cages Collective, which was basically trying to be a catalyst for the abolition movement in the UK.

And this was like, before I was...

Kind of really spoken about much apart from in like, you know, random academic circles or it was, you know, it was a grassroots movement in the USA and other parts of the world, but it was not very known around here.

So to be honest, Yeah, that, like, I was part of the South Wales Anarchists and, like, the Welsh language movement and other kind of things, like a lot.

But yeah, from 2014 to basically before I around the pandemic, I was mostly doing things in different prisoner support and different, like, Prison abolition kind of groups.

And yeah, some of it was, it was, yeah, it was some, sometimes it was difficult working with people that were basically just like my family, were triggering to me in the same way my family can be triggering to me emotionally.

But also it was just as hard working with, you know, quite middle class and, you know, and self consciously privileged like activists in a different way.

And I feel like, yeah, trauma was.

The experiences of trauma were definitely one of the things that made it emotionally difficult to to yeah, exist and work in that, that world.

And and yeah, that, and yeah, Nicole and I are good friends.

Nicole was actually there when I had my baby holding my hand while I was being cut open for the caesarean section.

So, yeah yeah, knowing Nicole was.

Yeah, and working with Nicole for many years was yeah, with you, was, yeah, was like, you know, a big thing for me because, yeah, there's not many people that have the kind of shared experience like this, I feel, in social movements, but yeah, that's kind of it.

And yeah, that was a very memorable day when your little one was born.

So I know, yeah, like again, trauma and class are like big things.

And I think there's this like union kind of like Marxist y kind of like approach.

Where it's like anyone who sells their labor is like somehow working class and it's like all of us against like The fucking landed gentry or something and I think it really like can invisibilize different people's experience And I know like class is like really hard to define but I just wondered if you could like speak to that a little bit and like Share like your perspectives on like what is class and like why why does it matter?

Yeah.

Well like it's something That it's been hard to get to grips with over the years.

Because as someone that, like, believes in revolution and believes in, like, you know, destroying capitalism, like, we're working with the social movements we've got.

And, you know, there was...

The Occupy movement, all of us against the 1%, and you know that, that makes sense in one way because the 1 percent owns more than, like, the rest of us combined, but the nuances of everything in between is pretty important because it's literally how divide and rule works in a way where, you know, some sections of our society have been bribed to control other sections of society in order to maintain order and to make us all feel like we all have a shot at being one of those, like, middle class people, and that if we're not like that, it's kind of our fault because we live in a meritocracy.

But like, some things that I've read in the last few years that have helped me make sense of this was there is a book called The Middle Class is the Enemy.

It's quite a provocative title, but it does talk about this situation where people have been bought off to To, you know, to have a stake in a system and have control over the people, like, you know, landlords, managers, bosses people that work in things that are entangled with surveillance and control of working class and underclass people.

Another book that was like, you know, a big moment for me was, you know, obviously D Hunter's book And it was just, you know it was just amazing to, to read and, you know, really, really harrowing as well at the same time because, you know, this person's been through so much and the, you know, the people in his life has been through so much as well.

And then one book that I never bothered to read because I thought, you know, I'm on the left, I'd probably know everything anyway, like the book was kind of advertised as a book for people that, Weren't so aware, but Owen Jones's book Chavs, like I recently listened to it on audiobook and actually it really contextualizes the way things have changed, like why the there's like a kind of an identity crisis of the working class at the moment.

You know, how Margaret Thatcher, how she absolutely decimated the heavy industries and the unions and the communities, like totally slaughtered the communities and created all this mass unemployment that was kind of masked by things like incapacity benefits.

Obviously, there are genuinely Disabled people, like people in my family that needed incapacity benefits when it was that, but like in Owen Jones's book it talks about how this was used to sort of massage the figures, unemployment figures, after so many people, like in the height of the Thatchers, 3 million people were unemployed, and they ran a campaign against Labour before she got in.

You know labor isn't working because there were one million unemployed, but yeah, so basically the destruction of people's livelihoods like this, like, it meant that there was a loss of identity and then there was kind of It led to a portrayal of these people without jobs being feckless.

They, you know, they're lazy.

You know, it's their fault they don't have a job rather than all the work in that community is gone.

That's been there for generations.

It's gone.

And it's just, you know, as you know, more, more industry has left the UK.

For different reasons, and you know, Margaret Thatcher's initiative of buy your council house as well, you know, get a stake in capitalism, it's like, yeah, it's, yeah, so that book was really, really quite interesting and contextualizing this, and the whole kind of thing, so Like, you know, the unions now, I, I can't imagine it was like this in the beginning but Owen Jones's book talks about how in the beginning unions were run by and for working class people, now they have a career in themselves and, you know, people earning, you know, really high wages and pretty much out of touch with a lot of people that they knew, you know, would represent as workers.

There's so many people, so many things have been privatized, so the unions are strong in the public sector, but not so much in the private sector, like conditions are so bad in so many workplaces, there's just a really high turnover and like you talked in the book about how it's so hard to do workplace organizing because people in supermarkets and other, like, jobs in, in areas that used to have, like, heavy industry, they, their turnover is really high because the conditions are so awful and, yeah, so it's like trying to think about, like, the, there's a book also by Dan Evans in Cardiff called, what's it called it's the, well, anyway, it's written by Dan Evans and it's something, something, The Rise of the Petit Bourgeoisie and basically it talks about how most people are now middle class.

And that was really refreshing because a lot of people on the left wing just want to, I think fundamentally part of it comes down to people on the left feeling self conscious about their privilege and wanting to be working class and like, Instead of owning the privilege, kind of just saying no, we're all, we're all working class and it kind of totally, like you said, flattens everyone's experiences, invisibilizes people that have much more, you know, the, the class oppression is like a thousand fold, you know, it comes at you in loads of different ways, the stigma, the, you know, inability to get by day to day, the, just like so many things and it's like, yeah, it basically, it's like, I've been trying to read to get to terms with it, but at the end of the day, you feel things in your guts, like what, what kind of your relationship with classes and when people are kind of misusing or misunderstanding the word.

It does feel painful because it, yeah, it does kind of, you know, flatten your experiences and it doesn't, it doesn't kind of respect the nuances, like there's so many nuances in it.

There's people, you know, that grow up, grow up really, really working class, but are like, Kind of, are managing to get by now.

Their immediate, like, family are managing to get by okay now.

They were not in the situation that they were growing up and like, this is like, you know, a nuanced difference from people that are still in the job centre, maybe have active addiction, everyone in their life is in the same situation as them as well, and trying to support them.

And, you know, their circle of friends is the same.

It's not black and white, because obviously, there's every...

combination in between like a lot of people who are managing now have lots of people in their lives that are still struggling like, like maybe like kind of that's the situation I relate to most because I've managed to you know, through to, to, I have a job now and yeah, I'm renting and I've got like really dodgy and bad housing situation where, you know, I was evicted last year and things like this, but like the people in my life, like members of my family and some friends, are in a much worse situation to me, much more precarious, much more, so it's just, yeah, like this question is so emotionally charged for me, it's just hard not to go on and on and on and about.

on and on about it but, but yeah this is yeah it's, it's everything we do every day and how we live and it, and it is pretty old fashioned and it's quite, it reminds me more of the authoritarian left people that kind of ignore any difference like that you know, but yeah that's it.

Yeah no 100 percent and like you know, like you said, like, things can get, like, really flattened, like, you know, there are different experiences for people, like, if they're racialized, if they're disabled, like, you know, if they have, like, immigration status here, like, there's just so many layers to it and I think, I think you're right that it is very, like, emotionally charged and often somehow that like, Just not distract, but like people can, you know, we don't always think about like the structural things like, you know Like why are landlords like contributing to poverty and stuff rather than like everyone just feeling uncomfortable with how much privilege they have if that makes sense with this real like naval gazing kind of like middle class trait of just like you know, not wanting to talk about it or whatever.

And like, yeah, it's just, I don't know, it is like complex.

But I just, yeah, like you did mention D Hunter in the book, like chav solidarity, which I think has had like a big impact on people's like understanding of class.

And I know that there is this kind of like, framework of like, underclass, and I just wondered, and you mentioned it in your introduction as well, I just wondered like, what do you think about that kind of underclass, like, worldview, like, you know, what is the underclass, if that makes sense?

Yeah, like, definitely, like, I agree with what you said about like, those intersecting oppressions and like, an underclass in a way is, it feels like when several of these oppressions co occur, and it creates kind of a really really yeah, people are put in desperate situations, like, I'm kind of grappling with what underclass is because it feels like, like, although I, obviously, this stuff in D Hunter's book, I couldn't relate to all of it, of course, but like, people in, like, in my family, there have been Yeah, like, put into different institutions, and we had, you know, I had some, our family had some intervention with, from social services going up and stuff, like, yeah, like, I think it was a really important book that kind of showed, a way people live that a lot of people are really convinced to that maybe like when people write about underclass people they think about like gangsters and you know really kind of weird like tv depictions of it and it's usually written by middle class people but like The whole, like, spectrum of experience that underclass people kind of have and, you know, all the barriers there are to, like, making life a little bit stable and the so like, the complicated feelings are things like, you know, I could cut off everyone I know and care about that are struggling in a similar way.

I could Become, like, completely, you know, selfish and just think about getting my life on track and, but it, it, and, you know, and get some stability, but that just, that's just not the world that you want to live in and Chav's solidarity, it felt like that was the, you know, the beauty that came in that book, that people in that situation help each other in a way that honestly, like, is completely foreign to, like, typical middle class culture, because middle class culture, I think, is built on something that you're gonna further yourself, and you're not gonna let anyone pull you down, and, you know, social mobility, because a lot, you know, the whole thing of being socially mobile, it's, you know, being socially mobile, it's quite a precarious place, because you could be downwardly socially mobile, you know, you could lose everything, but it's like, it feels like, yeah, Traveller's Solidarity, the way people help each other in really like, you know, special ways, that's really beautiful.

And that's why, you know, people don't like, people would rather stay and support each other than Just, you know, sack everyone off and just decide I'm going to be a careerist, I'm gonna, and, you know, and that's something I'm grappling with, to be honest, because now I have a daughter, I feel like I really have to try and push, you know, get some stability because, like, I don't want her to have a lot of difficult experiences that is inevitable when you are not, like, middle class or whatever, but also I feel like it's really hard to, like, go forward and, like, ma and do all the ridiculous things capitalism asks of you when you've got crisis after crisis after crisis happening all around you and it's like the emergencies that family members or friends are having and you just, it just feels really hard to, like, you know, manage all of that, plus all of your own struggles, and it's just, you know, people, like, there was a lot of stuff about, like, I agree with having boundaries, but having boundaries sometimes, and it's quite, feels like the self care boundaries stuff, it feels like quite a middle class thing, like, where it came through, but I feel like if, if, if middle class people with the time, and some people do, like, this is, You know, there are exceptions to the rule, and I've experienced this.

If people shared their ability to, like, support other people and to kind of absorb the shocks that their work in the class or working class friends have, then that can go a long way in kind of sharing the privilege and, you know, helping people kind of keep an even keel.

But it's like, it all feels still pretty vague and hard to pinpoint.

Because I think, like, the whole trauma aspect of it, it's really it's a really big part of it, and obviously people traumatise for lots of different things, but it feels like when trauma and class intersect, like, for example like, a member of my family was, like, sectioned, like, you know, five times in like four days by the police and the psychiatric hospital wouldn't accept him.

Why, why would they, I think, I'm pretty sure they would accept him if he was like a middle class person but because he'd been to prison before for like you know, for, as a result of his addictions and stuff and because of yeah, and because he's like big and And, you know, covered in tattoos and scars and stuff.

I really feel like he did not get the support on the NHS that other people would have had.

And, like, it feels like, if things go wrong, if you're middle class, you know, there is a cushion, there's a safety net, be it family that have money, or, you know, you have money to, like, you know, be able to not work for a bit, or pay for, like, some healthcare if you can't get it on the NHS, but, it's like, Yeah, like it's, they're linked but I still don't understand quite how they're linked but there's a gut feeling I have that they are really close things but it's really hard to verbalize it because everyone's experience is so different and, and yeah, it's just hard to it bring it together in a way like.

Yeah, no, for sure.

Like, it's definitely, like, super, like, super complex.

And I think what you're saying about, like, the safety net is, like, really critical because, like, yeah, like, I think a lot of people with kind of, like, you know, who've grown up with, like, a lot of stability, for example, like, I know there's, like, a lot of emotional deprivation and a lot of, kind of middle and upper class experiences, but I think, like, You might experience something traumatic, but ultimately, like, you're not then also worrying about, like, if you're gonna eat that day, right?

Like, it's, it's, it is different, and I think, like, the trauma of, like, poverty, for example, like, is traumatizing in and of itself.

Like, even if you had a really loving family who were really stable and didn't have, kind of, like, really challenging, like, mental health issues, like, the way that our parents kind of did, like, you would still be affected by this kind of like, intense, like, survival, scarcity feeling that, like, dominates, like, working class life, right?

But yeah, is there, are there any other ways you think, like, trauma kind of relates to class?

Yeah, definitely.

Like you said, the being, like, having the scarcity of resources, like moving house, you know, half a dozen time when you're growing up, it's, yeah, like, you just, Like, trauma and class are, like, completely intertwined and that's, especially, you know, after what Thatcher did and people all the problems that came with unemployment and how, you know, traumatic for the community it is to be unemployed and not knowing if you can, you know, that being in, like, real poverty in that way, it's like yeah, it's just, it's, Part and parcel of it, and then people self medicate, and addiction comes into it, and with addiction comes more trauma, and it's like a self perpetuating cycle and like more kind of, the ways the middle class or upper class people have to cope with things, like of course there's addiction there, but, you know, if you have an addiction in your middle class, or upper class, you can Somehow, sometimes get, still live a stable life.

Like I knew someone that had addiction to heroin but they had, they had a high paying job and they had enough money so it actually did not turn their life upside down like it does for people that are scraping the pennies together or turning to like risk, legally risky behavior to, to like, basically get money so they can numb their pain.

And you know, there's things like you can pay for therapies, like culturally, there's more like ways to like work through pain and trauma.

But you know, when, if If you're, if you don't have access to those things, and then it's just, you know, alcohol is the, and you know, people are time poor as well as many poor, so people don't, even if they had the money to access therapies, people don't often have time or childcare.

And on top of this, like going on my experience now, I, I was under the per perinatal mental health team after I had my daughter because, well, long story short, my mum had postpartum psychosis.

I was really worried about developing this because, you know, it can be genetic.

So I, like, contacted the perinatal mental health team and they they talked to me and although I didn't develop postnatal psychosis, which actually Nicole was a big part of, like, supporting me because I was so worried about getting it, like, Nicole, you supported me a lot through that.

I didn't develop it, but the perinatal mental health team saw I had a lot of trauma and I...

for the first time in my life.

So I was like, like a proper psychologist for an extended period of time.

And I was offered things like EMDR, which I'd wanted for years.

But actually, when we tried to get down to it, because every week something new and awful was happening, like my brother was being arrested and going in and out of jail.

And my dad was Like, diagnosed with cancer, and then I was evicted, and, you know, and then a whole host of other things in between.

I can't remember now, but, oh yeah, I've had an awful situation at my workplace, like, where there was, like, ableism and classism going on, and it was really, like, mentally hard.

But basically, my psychologist told me I can't do EDMR with you because, and I'd read this in Judith Herman's book Trauma and Recovery, which is a really good book actually and a lot less objectifying than other books, like the Body Keeps the Score, so this...

Basically, they said that until your life is stable, we can't do treatments for trauma because I was in active trauma.

So there was no point in me having treatments for...

You know, different trauma in my past.

I was in it now, like, through being, like, in a new parent that was, you know, in a precarious position, like, you know, working class or whatever, or surrounded by people that are in the class, but, like, Yeah, so it's, it's like you can't, even if you did have access to therapies, unless you know that you have a home, that you have, you know, that you're going to be able to pay for heating and for food and the, you know, that you have a somewhat secure future and that the people around you, because My dad's illness wasn't the only thing that worried me, like, he works in London, he sleeps at his work as a carer, and he stays with friends, and he's done this for 10 years, so he doesn't actually have a place to live in London.

He, my, my brother lives in North Wales, in my dad's house, but actually my brother is in such a vulnerable state, and has so many problems, and like the insane stuff that keeps happening, it wouldn't really work for my dad to live there, so.

is like, where, where is my dad going to live?

Like, I was just thinking about this, like, and when I was evicted, I was like, where am I gonna, you know, if I don't find somewhere and if I'm housed in a hostel, family hostel by the council, my dad's not going to have anywhere to live out his last, you know, time.

So yeah, I was like overwhelmed at that point.

And like, I was told that there was no point in having therapy for trauma because I was.

And, and like people, you know, so many people are in this situation, I'm not an anomaly.

You know, one in five kids in Wales live in poverty, and people who live in poverty, their lives, our lives are usually really, really, really chaotic, and yeah, it's like, like, the therapies, it's like, you know, two steps forward.

Like the first thing people, like the need, people need to kind of deal with trauma is to not be in, in, in a traumatic situation anymore.

And I remember talking to you about this, Nicole, a lot about the whole concept of therapy for people in prison.

Like, yeah, therapy for people in prison, but how about people not being in prison?

Because the idea of giving therapy to people when they are in active trauma in a place that is actively really disturbing and traumatizing, it kind of, you know, defeats the point, do you know what I mean?

So, yeah, kind of thinking about these things.

Yeah,

100%.

Like, I think that's why with my like, herbalism, PTSD and traumatic stress course, like, I didn't, I wanted it to be framed as like people that are experiencing like ongoing traumatic stress and like what things can help their nervous systems to like survive those experiences because yeah like the whole kind of PTSD framework is like you've had this traumatic event in your past that you're trying to heal from and it doesn't really like do justice to like the complexity of it or the fact that it's ongoing and like Yeah, like you said, it's like, yeah, like it's also why with the course, I didn't want to do it so that people had some sort of exchange of like, Oh, if you can't afford the course, you can come and help like weed my garden or some shit.

Because I think I think it's really offensive because like you said, it's like, it's not just it's like literally not just about money.

Right.

And I think that's how a lot of people Like, you know, a lot of people from a middle class background will be like, Oh, I'm so poor, but it's actually, no, you're not poor, like you're broke.

Do you know what I mean?

Like you, it's like a different thing.

And I think we can't reduce class to how much money is in your bank account or like your economic status in that point.

Cause like you said, it's, you know, it's all of these factors and yeah, like I think there is a tendency for people to just want to.

Yeah, I just want to, like, leave people behind, you know?

Like, I think if I'd have left prison and not continued to support my friends in there, you know, I probably would have, you know, my mum, like, remarried when I left home and, you know, met a middle class guy with resources and bought this amazing place with land.

I mean, it's his place and I moved in here, so it's, like, this huge access to, like, stability that I never had growing up.

Like, I lived in, like, 21 houses or something by the time I was 16.

But it's like, if I'd have just left my friends in prison to kind of rot, I probably would have had a fairly stress free life, right?

Like, I could have just, you know, I mean, I didn't like, left home at 16, so I didn't have like, GCSEs, I mean, A levels or whatever.

But anyway, but I'm just saying like, there is this tendency for people to like, leave each other behind somehow because they're like, yeah, you're too chaotic.

Like I actually had a guy break up with me once who was just like, yeah, like I can't, I can't deal with your life.

Like, because every month was like a different thing.

Every month was like a different you know, suicide attempt by a close friend or supporting like someone who was dying and doing like loads of caring labor and like looking after my grandparents and just like running up and down the country and then trying to do like loads of like class based like survival organizing stuff around prison, like with you.

Anyway, I'm like rambling now, but I just, yeah, I just like Wanted to ask about, you know, like, okay, I mean, you've already spoken to this, like, already about, like, you know, what do you think people have as, like, options for accessing support?

Like, I know for me, like, seeing my mum, like, clinically depressed, like, pretty much my entire childhood, like, having nervous breakdowns, being suicidal, da da da da da, but, like, Not managing to access help, like counseling or even like a healthcare practitioner, you know, like a, like a herbalist.

Like if someone had given her hormonal support, like I think everything could have been different.

But you know, she didn't access that support because of always being at the breadline.

And like, that's, you know, why I wanted to, to kind of create a clinic that was like sliding scale and like free to people, like in need.

Yeah.

And you know, working class folks are nearly always like the most affected by traumatic shit, but.

it always feels like there's like, you know, sweet fuck all available in terms of like support or solidarity.

And I just wondered, like, yeah, like, what are your thoughts on, you know, accessing support for people or like, when has support that you've been given, like, felt kind of meaningful, you know, like, what do you think kind of needs to be done, if that makes sense?

other than, you know, just like abolishing capitalism and this whole horrible system.

Like, first of all, I want to say, like, definitely not ramble it.

You're not rambling because it's important for people to hear these things.

Like, I've been dumped by, like, two friends in my life because, like, even though I was always careful to be, like, consensual about talking about my, like, kind of chaotic life, they just, Yeah, like, I had some pretty, like, serious legal, like, yeah, I was, I had a pretty serious, like, court case a couple years ago, as you remember, probably.

And yeah, I lost a friend, because, like, the chaos is just too much for people, and it disturbs their peace, and these are radical anarchists, and it's just, like yeah.

Like, it's, it's important to talk about it, and like, all those things you talk about, like, moving house all the time, like, I, like, I was the same, and people, people just think that it's being broke, and that's it, and it's that simple, but it's like, the whole, like, experience of it.

It's like a different universe living day by day.

And like, when, when I, when you, like, in terms of like health support to be able to like withstand this, like I, I, part of me just feels like I just want to say like, like, like there was a thing I, a meme or whatever I saw recently that said no amount of gentle parenting can address like an unjust society.

And I was, cause I've, yeah.

I've got a daughter, I've been putting loads of pressure on myself to basically be the perfect parent that is not gonna transfer all this trauma down to her, but I haven't, I feel like I'm doing a fantastic job so far, I'm just literally doing what I can, but in terms of like health, access to healthcare, what is, like, what is available?

I remember having, when I was pregnant, a consultation with you and it was like a very long conversation talking about All my physical and like, you know, somewhat emotional stuff and you know when you're in fight or flight you don't notice your body, you don't notice the feelings you have in the body.

I didn't really notice that I'd had like ulcers for like months on end.

I didn't notice the pain here or there that I had because like I had lots of problems with muscular, skeletal stuff and like it's...

You know, like the Gabber Matter book is really interesting, the the myth of normal.

It talks about the immune system and all this kind of stuff and the impact stress has on it.

And, and like, yeah, like people that are in the class are under an immense amount of stress.

all the time and become dis, you know, dislocated from their bodies.

And I did feel that talking to you for that, like, extended period of time, you know, it's even being able to notice your body and think about your body.

And I, yeah, and the tonics you gave me, it was really, really good.

And like, I'm, I'm hoping to do your course, like, soon, because.

I just, yeah, I, like, I go through, like, bursts of doing things that kind of help me a little bit.

Like, when I kind of address a problem I have, like I've got bad insomnia, I addressed my sleep a little bit.

That got better, but then other things fell to the wayside.

It's just, like, being time poor and it's been really hard to look after ourselves, basically.

But I do feel like the stuff you're doing and the way you're doing it, that it's, like, you know, free.

if someone needs it but that people that can afford it respectfully pay and the people with resources respectfully pay I think is like the way forward because yeah like we are not gonna we are not gonna move forward with You know, this like rigid class structure without people that have the privilege being able to share it somewhat and you know It's it's it's also rewarding to have people from different walks of life in your life Like, you know us interclass people.

We don't just tick tick tick like you Nicole, you're one of the most giving people I know.

I know I get, you know, I try and give a lot to the people that are in my life, you know, and, and a lot of other people as, as well.

Like, it just feels like don't, yeah, don't interact with people like you're, you know, supporting them out of charity.

It's like, you know, it's a two way thing.

Like you have middle class or like privileged people could learn a lot of things and.

You know, get perspective on their own lives through interacting with different people in a way that is in solidarity.

So, yeah, I, I don't have much ideas about how we can like heal that, that heal the trauma, like one thing that people have been talking about, especially in like I was involved in the Kurdistan solidarity network talking about distributing wealth, like people with money, giving money to people that don't have money and like that people did that a few times, I think like solidarity Kind of framework, like and, and yeah, like, 'cause it's quite traumatizing not having yeah.

Enough money for the basics when there is a cash injection.

Like it can buy you some breathing space that you desperately need to plan your next move to cope with your ongoing poverty or whatever.

So like, I know like some group, some like left groups that have like.

At Christmas or whatever, everyone with money put money in and then people that don't have money take some money out and it was Brilliant, to be honest.

So, yeah, I think thinking like that is a good way as well, and it's in the same kind of principles as the stuff you're doing, Nicole.

So, yeah, that's it.

I think, like, I think we've talked about this as well, right, of like, when Like, it's like the things that people actually need that are like survival orientated are somehow like the least sexy campaigns or something.

Does that make sense?

Or like, people will like almost like put their nose up at like some kind of like...

pick it as someone's workplace or something to get like a 10p increase in wages or something and they'll just be like, Oh, it's reformist, blah, blah, blah.

And it's like, Oh, actually for those people working in that place, like that little diff, that little amount is going to make a big difference to them.

And like, yeah, like I think a lot of.

like movement stuff like doesn't doesn't focus on this kind of like helping each other survive somehow and I think people who are sort of more like femme socialized like we're a bit more socialized to be like carers or like I think me and you both like had similar childhoods in the sense of like wanting to take on like caring well not wanting but having to take on like survival based caring responsibilities within our families and like that, you know, is interesting that, that it kind of continues into like movement spaces, you know, the fact that we both organize around like, you know, like health or like poverty, or I worked as a carer or do you know what I mean?

But I just, yeah, I just wanted to ask because like, I think a lot of people listening, like, you know, obviously there's like herbalists and stuff, but I think a lot of people who It sounds really pretentious to be like, who follow the Solidarity Apothecary?

But people, you know, like in our networks, like are often people that have been active in like the anarchist movement or like different social movements.

And I know you've like been very active in the Welsh language movement.

I just wondered like, what have been your experiences of class, like in those kind of movement spaces, like particularly?

Like it's mixed, like, At certain points it's felt like it's, it was the kind of the stable middle class family, like that I, you know, I love my family so much and you know, their, their situations are not their fault.

They've been dealt with some really hard.

cards in their lives and they have given me, you know, as much as they, they could and have, you know, have, have, you know, they've done their best and so have I, but like people being like a young age getting involved in the Welsh language movement and they were, you know, people, quite privileged people around and it did for a moment, you know, feel like, you know, they were, it felt like a little bit like I'd you know, Like, like being in, in a family and you know, when I had my baby, they sent me a box of cakes and you know, they, you know, and the same with anarchist movements, like for a while it, it, you know, I really felt like.

Like, family, because I, you know, I've been estranged from a lot of my family, like, for a long, long time, like, and, you know, on and off, so, but when classist, classism kind of comes up, you know, intersecting with sexism and ableism, because I'm, like, dyslexic and dyspraxic and stuff, it is pretty painful, exactly because, you know, that you, you know, it feels like, you know, you're, people and you know, you're struggling together to change, so struggling to, to change things.

But like, I've had experiences of, you know, just all the way, like, to be honest, the only time I ever did public speaking was with you in Empty Cages.

I was involved for many years in lots of different groups and I was kind of given like, you know, Small opportunities to talk and stuff, but it was only really in empty cages that I was, like, supported to, like, host workshops on my own, something I never, ever thought I'd do, like, public speaking.

And, like, I went to Cardiff Transformed this year, and it was, like, there was a panel on homelessness, and there was no homeless, or formerly homeless people there.

And it was just, to be honest, like, you know, activists that were doing really good work, but...

you know, we all know that things should be led by the people most affected, but it's still not happening, like on all these panels and all these kind of, you know, situations.

When we're even talking about class it's always, you know, middle class kind of activists that are, you know, making their voices heard and being visible.

And it's not, and you know, there should be more effort to support people from the, you know, the people from those backgrounds to talk, even if they don't do it perfectly, you know, their voices should be the center of any conversation.

And, you know, it's 2023, like we already know this, but it's not, not really happening.

I had some kind of weird experience, you know, experiences of classism in different, like, like, like, some, you know, there's countless to be honest, and there's probably not, no point in, like, going through them all, but it's just yeah, it, it does happen relentlessly all the time, and, and sometimes when I bring it up, people deny that it's real, because You know, class is not a protected characteristic on a par with other ones, because anyone really can say they're working class if their granddad was a minor or something.

And because it's a bit intangible, like I even heard of a fund that basically removed working class as one of their protected characteristics or whatever, to use that liberal language, because it just meant everyone was just applying and there was no way of really, like, you know, like, Checking or whatever.

It does sound very strange.

Like yeah, the class is a problem.

And like, yeah, you wrote the that article that outlined, like, we talked a lot in Working With Empty Cages about Classism that we encountered in organizing.

And yeah, when class is a struggle, you wrote that piece that kind of summarized a lot of those experiences.

And yeah, like I, I don't know, like I've, I've started writing about class, but I feel like I do it under a pen name because you know, I feel like if, if it feels really stigmatized still, and I feel like I don't want to you know, talk about those things in a way that kind of expose, it feels very exposing and I just want to be able to write and have my stuff read without having to reveal everything about me.

But when you do have stuff like, you know, a background that's a bit different to the, you know, norm that culture kind of tells you, because.

You know, there is a lot of underclass people, but it's portrayed as something very marginal and not the norm, but actually there's a hell of a lot of people that have those experiences, but it's like it's just, yeah, it just feels a bit exposing, like there was that whole time where Benefit Street, like there was like a pornographic view of people's lives in poverty and it was Pretty unethical how they were filming those things and it feels like if you have a struggle, you have to expose every part of yourself for it, for any recognition.

It feels like, you know, that feels a little bit hard and even though you want people to understand about your experiences, like, I don't want, I don't particularly want to talk about these really difficult and uncomfortable things.

Like, all the time, but it does feel like there is a pressure to do this.

Like, it feels like you're not really believed about your background unless you go and tell people absolutely everything.

And, yeah, I don't know.

Yeah, it's, it, organizing's really hard.

So, yeah.

Yeah, no, totally.

And, like, I think there's...

It's like, it's, it's challenging and it like this kind of like almost like this like social capital somehow of like suffering or like, you know, like Or and also that things are like fixed, right?

Like I think you named at the beginning that like, you know, sometimes someone can have a challenging childhood and like things then kind of like improve or they have access to resources.

Like I mentioned, like my mum, you know, marrying a middle class man and that just like changed everything for us.

And so a lot of the stuff like I write about is sort of historical, but then obviously like all the prisoner support stuff means I'm still, you know, being affected by, you know, these sort of systems in different ways.

But like, yeah, it is kind of like, yeah, just weird that like there's almost this like, I don't know.

Yeah.

Like just this like disclosure pressure or something like in order to like access care or support from people, we have to somehow just like, you know, like.

Yeah, like you said, like, be hyper vulnerable or, like, somehow, like, compete with, like, other people that have needs.

And I think there's this kind of, like, weird oppression Olympics thing, right, of, like, oh, I don't really, like, deserve that because I'm not as, like, hard done by as, like, that person.

You know, like, that goes back to fucking stupid, like, Monty Python.

like, you know, it's like hideous, like horrible, like racist, classist, like comedy show from England.

Like, you know, that's like decades old, but there's these two characters that are like, Oh, well I grew up in a box.

And then the other one's like, well, at least you had a box.

And it's like, yeah, like the internet is a weird world and it's like, it is weird.

Like how challenging it can feel to talk about this stuff.

And that like, yeah, almost like you mentioned.

to bring it back to the beginning about like like merit, meritocracy of like, people just kind of think like, why aren't you, why haven't you like climbed out of this mess?

Do you know what I mean?

Like, why are, why are you still chaotic or, you know, and I, I like was pretty broke, like before I launched my course in February and I just like was so full of self loathing of like, Nicole, you're 35, like how, Are you back here again, like without acknowledging like all the, you know, chronic stress and bereavements and, you know, horrible stuff with losing Taylor and everything.

But it's like, yeah, anyway, I completely agree that it's like challenging to talk about.

And I think like trauma in general is like challenging to talk about.

And there is this like weird.

world of internet where people are like somehow comparing themselves to each other or I don't know and I think like I don't, I don't want to critique identity politics in the sense of like I think it's like fucking important that people are talking about like racism and capitalism and gender and you know like all of these things but like I think yeah there is also that like liberal like neoliberal co option of it where it's like, you know, become like very shallow and it's become very much like, you know, people's fucking privilege points and like what's in your fucking bio, you know?

And like, I think we talked about it before that, like, we're both bisexual and like, you know, like for some people that's like their access to resource, like, oh, I'm part of their LGBT community, like dah, dah, dah.

And like, for us, like.

It's such a minor thing compared to other experiences of class that have, like, harmed us and shaped our lives and yeah, like, but I know, I know it's really difficult to think about, like, solutions and, like, you mentioned, like, a couple of things, like, the Kurdish Solidarity Network and, like, you know, people redistributing wealth and, like, I do think projects like the Classworks project are doing, like, really interesting workshops where They're getting people to be really fucking honest about their resources and, you know, what they're going to inherit and, you know, like encouraging people to distribute, yeah, like their resources.

But I just wondered, like, if there's, yeah, if there's anything else you can think of that, like, you know, is, has sort of inspired you politically recently where people are kind of like showing up for each other more.

I feel like I haven't been able to be part of the political world, like in, in a way that I would like to, like people have tried to kind of support me to take part, but when I tried to do the campaign for amnesty for the young people that were rioting, arrested for rioting, it completely like decimated my ability to function day to day, like I was doing the campaign and I was not managing to, you know do the, keep, you know, keep clean, make hot food on time, healthy food, you know, I, I just wasn't managing, so like, like, I feel like the, a lot, in, in the last, ten years.

Like, I always thought that it's an important part of anarchism is making community and for people that are stuck in the house, whether it's because they're disabled or have caring responsibilities, for people to go to those people.

And, you know, I have friends from the movement that come and visit me sometimes, but it's like, You know, really, there should be, you know, more, more of this, and like, I, I and a lot of people are in really dire housing situation at the moment, and I try to reach out to like old networks locally about, you know, the idea of making some kind of, trying to create some kind of initiative so that we can house ourselves in like a cooperative way or and like also just things to kind of projects because we were fighting austerity for like you know the last 12 years or whatever right and you know austerity kind of won and we've been left with like nothing really and so it just felt like the logical next step like the government is not looking after us obviously we always knew this is anarchist we need to create our own like organizations institutions or whatever to look after it each, each other and ourselves.

But, like, when I kind of reached out, there was not really much, there was not, there was no response.

And it does sometimes, like, the, the kind of bitter part of me feels like, well, you know, why would they?

They all either own houses or have, you know, Parents that they can live with or this and that and you know, there is some bitterness and jealousy that is a really ugly side of, you know, my class position that I am a bit ashamed of because jealousy does come into it for me because I do wish that, you know, that I Had more resources, obviously but, like, it just feels like, you know, if there were people with that privilege that would really seriously consider doing the long term, you know, difficult human interaction, like, unglamorous work of building up things that cater for our needs, and, you know, these people, not just for anarchists, and people on the left, but for every, you know, normal people that just want to live because I'm not able to do much at all anymore, like hardly anything, like I'm just grasping at being able to do anything politically by finding writing work where I can write about my experiences and my political analysis through that.

Otherwise I can't do anything, I've tried and it's just resulted in, you know, things falling apart.

So like, Yeah, accepting, basically creating things for people, and not necessarily just people on the left, anyone that needs it, and you know, working on that, and also, like, we need to, a way to, like, collectivise our experiences in the class, and working class people, and try and transcend those boundaries to some extent, so that we can have, like, a strong, Like working class identity, because like underclass it does segment, it basically segments the respectable working class from the disrespectful, you know, the disgrace working class or whatever, and it's like that was a tool used by, you know, a divide and rule tool.

So, to, to turn working class people against each other, just how, you know, how racism is a tool for that.

So, it's like building things that kind of, you know, do things like this.

And like, as a parent of a young child, all these churches have groups for little kids and they have a snack and a drink and people come together.

Often people, you know, mums that don't have maybe are not working, don't have the money to work, like, there's a people from a lot, you know, different backgrounds there.

Like if, imagine if anarchists were running groups like this and doing things in the community.

I know we're trying to stop.

all the bad things from happening and fascism and all of this and campaign after campaign and fighting for the environment.

But I feel like sometimes we're not really we could be doing things like rooting in the community that could build something rather than constantly trying to fight the states on this law, that law, this policy, that policy.

Like, we're not fighting from a place of strength.

And if we kind of, you know, put our roots down in communities and created things that communities could use and, and in this way, then we would be in a stronger position to like create something.

Cause it feels now like it has felt for a long time, just firefighting and not much success in that despite everyone's really hard work, like people work themselves into the ground, bring themselves out and yeah, like.

Yeah, that's it.

Well,

yeah, that was like a serious mic drop moment of like, yeah, I completely agree that like, I think I've been part of sort of resistance movements for such a long time and that's exactly what it is, right?

It is just resistance, like it is pushing back and you know, That's really powerful too, like, I'm fucking stoked that my county hasn't been turned into a fucking gas field, like, from fracking or whatever, like, like you said, like, some of those winds are really important, or, you know, like a bunch of the prisons that we were fighting, like, didn't get built, but, like, yeah, like, I think, I think what you said is really beautiful and, like, about, you know, like, rooting in and, like, providing those kind of, like, building that infrastructure of care, and I think part of why there isn't as much like movement focus on it is because it is just like so invisibilized, like caring labor, which is obviously extremely gendered, is like completely invisibilized, like completely devalued politically.

Like I remember when I was like, you know, we were trying to develop this like incarcerated working, no, incarcerated workers organizing committee group like within the IWW, like the industrial workers of the world, which is a kind of like anarchist esque union.

Like I remember going to their conference and like this dude, like just talking about class and stuff.

And I, I asked him.

something like in a workplace context and I asked him about what about like caring labor and like people excluded from the workplace who are actually fucking working all day long right like you know you don't fucking stop for breath like looking after your little one and yeah and he just was like so dismissive and it just felt like so tiring like I can't believe we're still here where like you know this stuff is like so just deemed as like so unimportant compared to like other forms of struggle somehow.

And I think, yeah, what you shared is really, really important.

Is there anything else you would like to kind of share, like before we finish about class and trauma, like anything that's come up, like as we're talking?

No, just thank you for inviting me to talk and I just want Yeah, say my appreciation for all the stuff you've done like You know, it's not vis, it's not on the Instagram, 90% of what you do and you know, the things you've been through.

And you know, it's been a real source of strength to me to have a friend like you that, you know, gets it.

And I've got some, you know, shared.

We, we don't have shared history 'cause we didn't grow up there together, but you know what I mean?

Like, we have some things from our, the way that we grow the yeah.

And it's.

you know, really good not to feel alone.

So yeah, I'm really proud of everything you've achieved and like you're a voice for for, you know, for people and I'm glad that like people are listening and just, yeah, thanks for having me on the podcast.

Aww, thanks so much for coming and yeah you've been just like, you know, literally my best friend for years and supported me through like hellish years of prisoner support that like no one else really understood and yeah I sometimes think that like two femmes who are like highly socialized to be hyper responsible like we were actually like a massive fucking dream team when we were organizing together but yeah I love you loads and yeah thank you so much for your time and energy.

And yeah, I'll put the links to some of the books and things you mentioned.

And if there's any other resources, just let me know and I'll share them in the show notes.

But otherwise, like, thank you so much again for your time.

And thanks everyone for listening.

Thanks so much for listening to the Frontline Herbalism podcast.

You can find the transcripts, the links, all the resources from the show at solidarityapothecary.org/podcast.