Do you ever fight with your partner?   Do you ever fight with your partner about parenting?   (Pretty much all of the couples I work with do both of those things.)   And these arguments tend to follow a pretty well-defined formula:

1. Child misbehaves.
2. Parent A gets overwhelmed, criticizes the child and snaps at Partner B for not doing more to help.
3. Parent B and says that clearly Parent A's 'better parenting approach' isn't working, since the kids are still misbehaving - this is contempt.
4. Parent A knows they don't want to parent the way they were raised, and also knows they aren't doing things totally in alignment with their values right now. Parent A has done a lot of work to try to heal themselves, but worries that it isn't happening fast enough to protect their children. And isn't it better than the bribing and punishing that Parent B is doing? They're being defensive.
5. Parent B stonewalls - they are overwhelmed and shuts down, refusing to talk about the issue.
6. Both partners walk away feeling frustrated, wonder how on earth it got to this point, and feel hopeless that it will ever improve.

  If your fights look like this, I'm here to let you know that there is hope!   Last year I did Levels 1 and 2 (of 3 levels) of Gottman Method training. The Gottman Method is basically the only evidence-based framework for couple's therapy.   Drs. John & Julie Gottman describe the main ways they see couples struggle in their communication, and named them the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse - you saw all of them in the example above.   How many of the Horsemen show up in your fights?   (Criticism is almost always the first Horseman to arrive. Interrupt that, and you can communicate in entirely different ways.)   If you wish there was a better way to communicate about these challenging issues with your partner so you could actually get on the same page and parent as a team, today's episode will show you how to do that.   You'll see a couple, Dee and Jono, who usually walk away from each other in frustration after they discuss their roles in the family.   In this conversation they use very different tools. We didn't completely resolve the issue, but they kept going with the conversation by themselves and gave me permission to also share Dee's report of what happened after the call - which was really magical!   Learn more about how you can avoid using The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, and what tools to use instead so you can actually discuss these kinds of difficult topics with your partner.   It's really hard to learn these kinds of communication skills on your own. I'd actually read one of the Gottmans' books but didn't really see how to apply the ideas in my own relationship until I did their four-day training.   During the training I realized that they use basically the same set of tools I use to help parents with their children's behavior, but with a couple of key weaknesses. So I recruited couples from the Parenting Membership and created a series of demo videos so you can learn the skills and see couples practicing them.   There are cheat sheets, starter scripts, and quizzes to help you identify the Four Horsemen in real couples' arguments.   Couples who have used these tools report not just that they're able to address their disagreements more easily, but they're having fewer squabbles in the first place because things just seem to 'flow' in a way they hadn't before.   I'll coach you (live!) on how to use the tools with your own partner in the Parenting Membership. Join the waitlist and get notified when doors reopen in May 2025. Click the image below to learn more.     Discover how our Parenting Membership can provide invaluable support and guidance. Share this letter with your partner to help them understand the benefits of joining our community. Together, we can make parenting easier and more enjoyable.    

Other episode mentioned:

207: How to not be a permissive parent  

Jump to Highlights

00:53 Introducing today’s topic 02:27 The Parenting Membership's "Parenting As A Team" module, inspired by the Gottmans' research, provides valuable guidance on communication and relationships, empowering members with tools for stronger partnerships. 09:46 Introducing the historical approach to aiding couples in managing relationship challenges, along with the "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse" behaviors and their remedies 15:36 Dee and Jono engage in a coaching session, where CG, a non-professional coach, showcases her active listening skills. This session highlights the importance of validation and reflective listening in resolving conflicts and understanding perspectives, emphasizing the need for external support and skill-building within communities for improved communication and relationships. 32:48 Dee and Jono's coaching call led to commitments to nurture equality through daily appreciation, shared responsibilities, and seeking peer coaching for equitable partnership strategies. 40:07 Invitation to join the Parenting Membership

Adrian: 00:03

Hi, I'm Adrian in suburban Chicagoland and this is Your Parenting Mojo with Jen Lumanlan. Jen is working on a series of episodes based on the challenges you are having with your child. From tooth brushing to sibling fighting, to the endless resistance to whatever you ask, Jen will look across all the evidence from thousands of scientific papers across a whole range of topics related to parenting and child development to help you see solutions to the issue you're facing that hadn't seen possible before. If you'd like a personalized answer to your challenge, just make a video if possible, or an audio clip if not, that's less than one minute long that describes what's happening, and email it to support@YourParentingMojo.com and listen out for your episode soon.

Jen Lumanlan: 00:53

Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. In this episode, I want to share something with you that I might be more excited about than almost anything else I've done in the seven and a half years and over 200 episodes of this podcast. First, let me start with a few questions. If you have a parenting partner, do you ever fight with them? And if you do fight with them, do you fight about parenting? Maybe you prefer to take an intentional approach, learning from different resources and working to heal yourself from the hurts you've experienced, while your partner prefers to do things more intuitively. Maybe you know that you aren't parenting exactly in line with your values a lot of the time and your partner tends to point out when you slip up or when the kids refuse to do what you say as evidence that your method doesn't work? Maybe you've had the same arguments over and over again, and each of you have the standard phrases that you repeat each time and nothing ever really seems to change. It probably feels pretty frustrating and maybe even hopeless. You might wish that you and your partner could get on the same page about some of the stuff or even if you couldn't be on the same page to agree that you'll disagree and how you'll handle that in a way you can both live with.

Jen Lumanlan: 02:08

Well, today, I'm going to tell you some of the reasons why that's happening and what you can do about it. And I'm going to share pieces of a conversation between parents who are in the process of figuring this out for themselves as well and how they're doing it. But before we get into that, I want to let you know how all of this came to be.

Jen Lumanlan: 02:27

So we've had a module on Parenting As A Team in the Parenting Membership ever since the membership started five years ago. And it's always been based in the work of doctors John and Julie Gottman. They're therapists. They're researchers based in Seattle, Washington, and they've studied couples and couples' communication for decades. In the original Parenting As A Team module, we introduced some of their core ideas in written format with a video lecture and some couples did get something out of it. They were able to open up a conversation about a tricky topic in a way that they hadn't been able to before and not immediately get their partners back up. But then things pretty often fell apart. They would end up bickering and dropped back into their old tired phrases that they've used over and over again, and the whole thing would feel very disheartening. Last year, I took levels 1 and 2 of the three levels of Gottman method training over a period of four days. And a substantial part of the training consists of watching demonstration videos that the Gottmans recorded where they coached a couple who agreed to be recorded for use and teaching exercises.

Jen Lumanlan: 03:25

As I watched those recordings, I realized four things. Firstly, the couple in the demo video was just an extreme version of the kinds of fights that I have with my husband, and that parents in the Parenting Membership report having with their partners as well. The second thing I saw was that learning by watching others was extremely effective. It's one thing to know that all couples tend to fall into predictable patterns. And it's entirely another thing to actually watch it happening and see: Oh, I do some of those things, too. And see how couples therapists coach them to follow a specific conversational format so they can talk about what's really happening with them, not just repeating the same old tired explanations that don't get us anywhere, but deeply empathizing with each other, and understanding the needs and dreams and hopes and fears and memories that are behind those explanations. The third thing that was kind of the most mind blowing for me personally, which was that before I did the training, I assumed that working with couples was in some way fundamentally different from the work that I do between parents and children. And there were some really special set of techniques that I was definitely missing. And there was no way that I could work with couples. And I was stunned to find out the vast majority of the techniques that Gottmans were using were very well aligned with work I was already doing. But I saw two really important problems in the way that they were using the tools.

Jen Lumanlan: 04:44

I generally follow practices that are aligned with nonviolent communication, which is usually a four step process. You start by making a non-judgmental observation about the situation. So you both agree on what you're talking about without making it anyone's fault. You each share how you're feeling and what your needs are and then you look for strategies to meet both of your needs. In the Gottman's training videos couples mixed up judgments and feelings ALL the time. So a partner might say: "I felt criticized" or "I felt blindsided." And those are not feelings. It sounds like a really picky distinction. But it's actually very important. If you try to open up a conversation by saying to your partner, "I felt criticized" or "I felt blindsided," then their back is up. And what you're really doing is you're judging something your partner said or did but when we disguise them as feelings by saying "I felt criticized," then we're making out like they're these neutral observations. Our partner gets triggered or flooded by what we say and the argument is heading south before we've even really figured out what we're talking about.

Jen Lumanlan: 05:45

The other way that Gottman method got their demo video subjects into trouble was when they conflated needs, and strategies to meet their needs. At one point, the wife said to the husband, something like, "I don't care what kind of day you've had, when you walk in the front door, I need you to have a smile on your face," and I'm screaming in my head, "That is not a need." That is a strategy to meet a need. Her need was probably for emotional safety. And her husband pasting a smile on his face before he walked in the door was one of 50 strategies they could have used to meet that need. And again, it might sound persnickety, but the whole point of understanding your needs is it helps you to find multiple strategies to meet those needs. If you're restricting yourself to one strategy, and your partner doesn't like that strategy, because it doesn't meet their needs, then you're stuck. But when you can see the suite of strategies that can potentially meet both of your needs, you're in a much better position.

Jen Lumanlan: 06:38

The final thing I saw as I was watching those demo videos was I was pretty sure there would be couples in the Parenting Membership, who would be willing to do coaching sessions with me to record for the purpose of creating demo videos, knowing that they would then be able to watch lots of other couples also practicing these skills and learn from them. And it turned out there were quite a few couples who were willing to do it. So in January, I recruited some couples specifically asking to work with couples who were doing reasonably well and looking to optimize or who were having some moderate difficulties, but they were both committed to the relationship. I'm a coach, I'm not a licensed clinical social worker, I'm not a therapist, so it isn't appropriate for me to work with couples who are dealing with severe difficulties, like infidelity, or if one or both of them are considering leaving the relationship. But it turns out, there are quite a lot of couples who are not having those severe difficulties, but who are still kind of struggling with communication. Either there are new issues coming up, and they don't fully understand each other's needs, or they're having these same disagreements over and over and over again about the same issues. They're still committed to the relationship. But it still kind of sucks to not be able to find a way to get through these situations.

Jen Lumanlan: 07:47

As I was recording and editing the demo videos, I also created some cheat sheets based on the Gottman's ideas but with my variations that couples can use to remind themselves of the process as they go through it. I would walk them through the whole process at the beginning, but without fail, at some point, they would depart from it. And that's where the bickering would start. And more than one person confess that as their partner was sharing what was going on for them, the partner who was supposed to be listening was actually thinking about what they were going to say and how they were going to explain their perspective. As soon as their partner stopped talking. One of them would start using one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, which I think is one of the Gottman's most helpful contributions. We'll learn more about those in a minute. Having the cheat sheet did help them to stay on track. But what really helped them was having me there to remind them when they drifted. And I wasn't using really high order coaching skills. Most of what I was doing was calling timeout when they stopped using the process. And when the Four Horsemen popped up, which was going to completely derail the conversation if it continued.

Jen Lumanlan: 08:46

As I was making these demo videos, I thought back to some training I did a couple of years ago on healing shame. After I did that healing shame training, I did some group coaching calls where I showed members the tools that I was using, and then I coached a member on a situation they were feeling shame about. Each member brought with them what we call the shame buddy. Some people brought someone from their action group, which is a group of five members plus a peer coach that meets weekly inside the membership. Usually the membership is close to folks on the outside. But for these calls, members were invited to bring anyone they liked. So some people brought their friends or their siblings, anyone who wasn't involved with the situation they were feeling shame about. And I would lead a deep coaching session with one person inviting everyone else to follow along and see the tools I was using. And we discussed the tools. And then we separated into shame buddy pairs in breakout rooms and the pairs got to practice the tools between themselves. They were able to make a pretty dramatic amount of progress themselves and several of the buddies have continued to meet on a regular basis since then to continue this work.

Jen Lumanlan: 09:46

So then I thought, well, what if we could use the same methodology with couples? Couples' Therapy is only been around for about 100 years. What did we do before that? It was probably a good deal of shut up and suck it up happening in marriages back then but each partner would probably get help from talking with friends and parents and siblings. Further back, it wouldn't surprise me if entire communities help couples to navigate relationship challenges, even if nuclear family relationships didn't look exactly the same then as they do now. So what if we could support couples in that way now? If most of what a couple needs to have a productive conversation is help remembering to use the tools that are laid out on the cheat sheet, and spotting the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse as they arise, and the occasional summary of a convoluted idea, don't any of us have the basic skills needed to support couples in doing this work if we can offer a little help and training and support?

Jen Lumanlan: 10:39

So let me tell you a little bit about the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. So these are criticism, defensiveness, contempt, and stonewalling. So let's go through these one by one. The first of them is criticism. When one partner attacks the other person's character, rather than just an action or behavior, and this very often sounds like: "You always..." or "You never..." or "Why do you...?" or "Why don't you...?" And in the case of the Why questions is important to note, these aren't really questions--they're rhetorical questions that are often actually expressing disappointment or anger. And I also want to relate criticisms to language we use in nonviolent communication and problem solving conversations. We can equate criticism with a judgment. They're basically the same thing. And they indicate there's a right way and a wrong way to do things and you know, the right way, And you do it that way. And the other person doesn't know or doesn't do things that way.

Jen Lumanlan: 11:35

Judgments are not terrible in your mind. Judgments can tell you something about what's important to you, if you can take your judgment, and try to understand what feeling underneath that, that's really helpful, right? We saw that in our conversation with Diana recently in the episode on How to not be a permissive parent. But it may be difficult for your partner to hear judgments that come out of your mouth and still stay in a frame of mind where they want to understand your feelings, and help you uncover and meet your needs. The antidote to criticism and judgment is to share your feelings about specific things that have happened, rather than generalizing or saying what your partner needs to change. The second of the Four Horsemen is defensiveness. So this is an attempt to protect yourself to defend your innocence or to ward off a perceived attack. Sometimes this is done by counter attacking or by acting as an innocent victim. The pattern of criticism followed by defensiveness is very common. But defensiveness can also come up in response to a perceived criticism. So Partner A might say, "Did you take out the trash yet?" which has already been agreed to be part of Partner B's task? And Partner B might respond with an attack like: "No, because I've been really busy. Did you take it out?" Or with positioning themselves as a victim: "No, I didn't take it out. You know, I'm busy. I've been at work lately. Can't you just do it?" And this victimhood may take the form of focusing on how hard it has been for Partner B to already do all the things they're already doing. The weight that they're carrying how the solution is clearly to do things even more perfectly when Partner A probably isn't asking for that. Partner B had already agreed to take out the trash, but is avoiding the responsibility they'd signed up for. So the antidote to defensiveness is to accept at least a small part of responsibility for the role in the situation.

Jen Lumanlan: 13:17

The third of the Four Horsemen is contempt. The Gottmans say contempt is the most destructive, negative behavior in relationships. This means treating your partner with disrespect, mocking them with sarcasm, condescension, using hostile humor, name-calling, mimicking, body language like sneering, sometimes even eye rolling can convey contempt. Contempt is poisonous in a relationship because it conveys that I'm better than you. We didn't really see this in our conversations with couples partly because people were on good behavior in front of me and partly because I specifically requested people to work with who were doing fairly well in their relationships. And even though the tools would be the same coaching obviously is more appropriate for couples who are doing relatively well. The Gottman's antidote to contempt is to build a culture of appreciation in the relationship because appreciation brings the other partner up to your level. It's hard to feel contempt when you also feel appreciation.

Jen Lumanlan: 14:10

The final of the Four Horsemen is stonewalling. And this is when one or perhaps both people withdraw from the interaction, shutting down, closing themselves off. The Gottmans say that 80% of stonewallers are men, but I've historically been a stonewalling myself. Before I'd even heard of the Gottman's I knew that I just tuned people out in difficult conversations. It's a habit that I learned from my father who would lecture me for hours when I was a teen about my perceived shortcomings. And I wasn't permitted to respond and so I would just mentally disappear. It became a habit that I carried into my adult relationships. I think pop culture looks at stonewalling a bit derisively, like, it's just men doing their thing and pretending the woman doesn't exist in a cis-het that relationship when she's nagging. But it's important to know this is an emotion regulation strategy. The stonewaller is putting a wall up between themselves and their partner because they're too dysregulated to be present in the conversation. The stonewaller might refuse to make eye contact. They might turn away, or act busy, engage in obsessive behaviors. The antidote to stonewalling is to support the partner who stonewalls in regulating themselves. This often involves stopping the conversation for at least a period of time. The stonewalling partner could imagine themselves in a soothing, relaxing place, or tense and release their muscles or focus on their breath. Once they're reregulated, they may be able to then continue the conversation and be present with hearing the other person and also expressing their own feelings and needs.

Jen Lumanlan: 15:36

The Gottman is presented criticism first for a reason: it often shows up first, and then some combination of the other three reactions follow. We may have developed patterns in childhood and through throughout adulthood that lead us into a particular horseman. But most of us aren't in a relationship where contempt or stonewalling are present as part of our everyday lives. And if they are, I'd say that couples counseling would be a great place to explore that. Many, many arguments start with a criticism or a perceived criticism. And then a responding pattern comes in and things develop from there. So interrupting the criticism is likely to be the best place to start working on this. Ideally, that will take the form of the person who criticizes doing it less often, or catching something right after they say it and acknowledging: "Oh, that might have come across as criticism before further dysregulation occurs." If that doesn't happen, then the receiving partner can hopefully create a pause, observe that the statement seemed critical and asking if that was the partner's intent. As people get flooded or triggered, that gets much more difficult. But it's something to try when criticism first comes up.

Jen Lumanlan: 16:40

Now I want you to hear parts of a coaching session where some defensiveness comes up, although not immediately. It's actually a really interesting example because I interviewed parent D a few weeks ago for another podcast episode that you're going to hear in a few weeks where she talked about how her parenting has really shifted over the last couple of years since we've been working together. And she did acknowledge in that conversation, the fairly intensive amount of connection that her child needs has been hard on her relationship with her husband. Not long after the podcast interview, I was on a group coaching call where I showed another member CG how to use the Parenting as a Team Tools. And then CG coached Dee and her partner, Jono. Dee and Jono and CG have all agreed to allow me to share the conversation with you. And I want to pick up fairly early in it.

Jen Lumanlan: 17:25

So Dee was having a bit of a hard time reflecting back to Jonnah what the real issue was for him, partly because Jono was having a hard time articulating it himself. So what I want you to listen for in this snippet is ds validation. She has a very different perspective on this issue. But as we pick up, she's putting that on hold for just a few minutes, as she tries very hard to see what's coming up for Jonnah on this topic. Because she knows that in a few minutes, she's going to get to share her perspective, and know that he will really try to listen to her and hear where she's coming from, rather than just waiting for her to stop talking. And just to give you some context, I should point out that they live in a very rural area in New Zealand, and they get the best internet signal outside, which is why you'll see them outside in the YouTube video. And you'll hear wind and background noise if you're listening to the podcast episode. They're working to replant native species on a former plantation. And they also have a sailboat that they lived on full time for a couple of years right before COVID.

Dee: 18:20

Yeah, okay. So Jono, what I hear, what I hear you saying is that your plate feels quite full, with all of the different things happening around our property. And, you know, I mean, there's an extension of that too, which is, also there's work that you can do in the office, and then there's also the bulge. So there's kind of like the property is ru and then there's me in terms of estimating as well. And then there's the work in your office, and then there's work to be done on the boat. And it all feels like a lot in finding a balance. You feel overwhelmed, and but you just see that you can see that when you prioritize all those other things, and you're not feeling engaged with that, that then causes its own feedback loop, which then adds kind of more things to your play. Yeah, that kind of,

Jono: 19:15

Kind of I'd like to boil down the items a bit further because you can say the items but it's maintaining the life that we live in existence. And I kind of feel like that's not just solely my responsibility, but it is. I take that on. It's like the claiming analogy before well, and the opposite to the female aspect is very much male centric thing within our society that that is the males' responsibility in order to provide the the the aspects for everything that facilitates the lifestyle.

Dee: 19:56

Can I can I stop there just to make sure I've got there but right. Yeah. So are you...are you saying that, that whether or not I expect you to take responsibility for all of those things you feel responsible, for all those things? Or are you saying that I'm not taking ownership of those things and so you have to?

Dee: 20:22

A combination I think you quite happy to let it slide. And that's fine. But I also I'm the social convention is that I'm expected to,

Dee: 20:35

Yeah. Okay. So I'm okay to let it slide. But is there an element of but if it slides, it will be seen as you're failing?

Jono: 20:44

No. That 's more effort slides, I will be dealing with the consequences that work.

Dee: 20:53

Okay, as opposed to, because you underneath, it'll feel that it's think that it's ultimately you're

Jono: 21:04

Things that fall into my, my responsibility of expertise, I mean, your expertise as a kid of the internet? Do you want to boil it down?

Dee: 21:14

You mean, because the things that you're talking about are things like, want to build a sheet or not, you're sorry. We would like to have a sheet here on the property. We would like to have fences. There's weed control to be done. We use digger and dig giant holes and bury ginger. And there's, I mean, the list is pretty massive, like there's electrical work to be done on the boat. Here's repair work and the fiberglass on the bottom. But I guess, to be flustered, but to clean it up, these are all things that I don't know how to do. So you're not saying that there's just a societal expectation. You're actually saying, as well as that you are the one that is capable of doing those things.

Jono: 21:55

Yes they're not done, then it comes back on my plate.

CG: 21:58

I'm wondering, cause I'm hearing two different things. I'm wondering if I may share what I'm hearing to see how it lands for you. Like what's happening right now, in the last two, three minutes is sort of just listening. I am doing this, you're and you're doing that. And I'm wondering if we can move away from that. And lump all that under what I think I heard Jono say earlier, which is that there's an internal struggle that you're feeling Jono. You're struggling between what it means to be successful, as a provider for your family and as a citizen, and then what it means to be a successful parent, whatever that means, right? Like, you want to have time with Rue but you felt torn. So there's this internal struggle, and I wonder if that's the issue that we're dealing with, or that you'd like to discuss is sort of like I'm conflicted. And I'm not...and I'm struggling to find a way to balance it in a way that doesn't cause tension in our relationship.

Jono: 23:03

Yeah, yeah. Thank you, the nail on the head. And really what I was trying to communicate today, was that her role in this even though she might I probably when I heard you speak initially on it, you kind of say that was my problem. And yes, that is my internal issue. But the balancing of things is our family unit. Yeah. I'm happy to take the issue on and it is how I deal with the issue that is causing the issue, except that that's my dealing with it, because I can't just let it slide.

Jen Lumanlan: 23:39

So did you hear CG's elegant summary of the issue at the end of that section? CG is not a trained coach. She has no experience of coaching anyone before. She gathered some parents inside the community, and then participated in some peer led workshops to practice active listening. And you can see that that's paying off. What she's doing here is listening closely and reflecting what she's heard. And 40 minutes into the conversation Jono finally says, "Yes, that's it. That's the issue," which he and Dee have discussed a number of times before, using, again, the same old tired phrases and getting nowhere except frustrated. Now Jono's need for understanding and being heard is met. We continue hearing Jono's feelings on the topic for a little while longer. And when we finish with that aspect of the conversation, he does think that Dee has understood it as well as they both can at this point.

Jen Lumanlan: 23:47

Are you saying that you don't feel appreciated for everything that you do, and that it's hard for me to appreciate everything that you do, because I don't understand the complexities of what's involved in a lot of the things that you do?

Jono: 24:46

Yes, yes, that's correct. And probably further to the point of Gene, you also don't understand the what is put back onto me from the way that we raise it.

Dee: 24:59

So your saying on top of that, I don't I don't understand or Gene doesn't understand. I don't understand. Okay. I don't understand what the additional work on you because of how we work. Yeah. Okay

Jono: 25:16

And not necessarily additional just be work.

Jen Lumanlan: 25:20

Then we switched to hearing from Dee and initially she feels quite defensive. She describes it as a sense of indignation and CG catches it and asks her to refocus just on her feelings. And you can hear that Jono does not respond with criticism or defensiveness, or stonewalling or contempt of his own, possibly, because the experience of being heard earlier created some space for him not to blow up, but to stay present in the conversation and even reflect back to her what he thinks he's heard.

CG: 25:49

I'm gonna keep you Dee to talking about your feelings and your reaction to what Jono said as opposed to you thinking how Jono acts and thinks and reacts.

Dee: 25:49

I guess there's a sense of indignation in me. Yes, I see that parenting in this way takes more time in the moment. And and I also, I, I actually think that John has sees the you know, that yes, it's more in the moment, but that the overarching maybe I feel that indignant because when when Jono is not in this camps, tense, anxious. When you're not in this tense, anxious place, you like parenting like this, and really being a, you know, like a whole person that we interact with? The same way we'd like to be treated.

Dee: 26:39

Okay. Oh, thank you. Okay. Um,

CG: 26:42

Maybe while you're thinking for your next feeling is could maybe Jono can reflect back what you what you just said?

Jono: 26:47

Yeah, I heard you say that you feel comfortable in the way that you're doing it and how we're doing it together, when things are going well, but you feel like the uncomfortable. The uncomfortable section comes when it's my way, or when I'm not dealing with it? Well, amongst minutes running well, it's a way that we're both trying to achieve.

Dee: 27:14

Yeah. Yep. Yep. And I think I feel a bit rattled and scared about really that that rattled and it comes from, I'm not sure. CG, can you direct me a bit? Because I'm not. I'm a bit lost in the process.

Jono: 27:34

What do you wish for?

Dee: 27:35

What do I wish for?

Jono: 27:36

Yeah

Dee: 27:37

I think that was my the beginning. I wish that I don't wish that we didn't have the conflict. I don't wish that we didn't have those times. I wish that we could work out what the instigator of that conflict, or what was underneath that. So that we could try, you know, try change things a little bit so that it doesn't matter. Or not that it doesn't come up, but so that if it comes up, you can say, oh, yeah, I recognize. And this is things that we should do to address. And now I feel like I'm speaking really badly. But it's some things that we should do to address the tense, apprehensive feelings, because it seems that when those feelings come about, there's just I don't know now I'm now I'm going back to what I think, you know, instead of talking about

Jono: 28:29

your feelings

Dee: 28:30

feelings, yes. I'm a bit lost in the process.

Jono: 28:33

So you're kind of you're getting caught on this tension side of things. I've heard you repeat that a couple of times.

Dee: 28:38

Yeah.

Jen Lumanlan: 28:38

Notice that lovely validation and questioning by Jono. He isn't asking Dee a question to catch her out. He asks what her dream is so he can better understand her perspective. And he notices when Dee has said something a couple of times as an indicator that this is an issue that's really getting caught in the tension is important to her. I do want to be clear, the Dee and Jono did not solve their issue on this call. They have previously tried having Dee share appreciations with Jono for the things he does to support their family. But she wasn't sure whether and how to do this, especially when he seemed to be in what they refer to as a grumpy mood. He clarified that even if he is in a grumpy mood, the appreciations do land for him and he appreciates them as it were. Sometimes we get to a really tidy resolution on the coaching call itself, which always feels amazing for the coach. But sometimes it doesn't happen like that. And the ideas continue to percolate as they did for Dee and Jono, which we'll get to in a few minutes. Immediately after the coaching session, we had a casual debrief chat with Dee, Jono, CG and the other parents who would watch the session in the background. And we chatted about how hard it can be to do this work by ourselves. A participant who's watching this session asked in the chat: "Can I have this conversation with my by myself with my partner?" And CG picks up with a reflection on that.

Jen Lumanlan: 28:41

Sienna asked the question of can she can she do this by herself or or is it better with a another person and when only when? Right, like, I find, I guess you have to know yourself like, I know myself enough now to say I can't do this by myself. Because, yeah, like when Dee was going in and starting to direct it, Jono, as opposed to talking with her, like, I probably do that without seeing it. And the only reason why I was able to stop is because I was watching her. And I'm not.

Jen Lumanlan: 30:26

Exactly, yeah, so so

Dee: 30:28

I couldn't see myself doing it. Yes, I'm gonna go back and watch, because I just Yeah. And even after you pointed it out, I'm like, oh, yeah, I can kind of see that. But I couldn't. You know how not to do that. Yeah.

CG: 30:40

So you heard, and you'll hear in the recording Jono say like, I'm feeling defensive, because I feel like there's judgment coming from those words, right, even though you don't, maybe not intending it. But it's coming across that way. And I know, that's what I deal with.

CG: 30:57

I can't stop myself. And so I think, a mediator, a mediator might be helpful. It really is.

Jen Lumanlan: 31:06

And I think that if if both people like if the relationships at a point where you know, and each person has an awareness that in this case, like maybe Jono says, "Yeah, I'm I'm noticing that you're actually talking about yourself. Now you're not, you're not validating me anymore." And if Jono can be present, and not be immediately triggered by that, and if Dee can hear that and not be immediately triggered by that, then yeah, you can get yourself back on course.

Jono: 31:29

It's really hard because you've got to listen to what they're saying and hold on to the into interject to direct it without getting into a battle.

Jen Lumanlan: 31:40

Yes, yes, it is hard, because we never learned to communicate like this, right? We what we learned is you you just wait for the other person to pause long enough so that you can start talking about your perspective, not actually truly hearing the other person. And that's why what we're trying to do here, right, the reason I had CG coach, instead of doing it myself, is because I want us to skill build in our network. I mean, everybody's gonna watch this recording, and CG is going to be the hardest thing in running these sessions, everybody's gonna want you to do theirs. And so, you know, we had a whole bunch of people on the call this morning, and who have all seen it in practice, who have who have, you know, a bunch of them have coached each other. And so Ciana, you know, you're having a hard time with your partner. We've got the cheat sheets, right that you can use, and we've got a whole bunch of people in our community, you can raise your hand and say, "Hey, we got some help. Could anyone join us on a call?" And maybe CG is available, and then maybe CG And our partner having a hard time? And Cianna is like, "Yeah, I can I can do it." So that that's the kind of network I want to provide so that we're not like I we're having a hard time and we can't afford therapy. And where else do we go? Right? There's nothing else that this is kind of, you know, yes, this is not therapy. But it is something that can help.

Jen Lumanlan: 32:48

When we posted the call recording 24 hours later Dee shared a lovely update on the conversations that had happened since then, which I'm going to read to you because they're I mean, they're really that cool. Okay, so Dee says, "It loosened things!!!" (And then a whole bunch of exclamation marks.) "We could talk about it after the call, who knew we had a really connecting conversation that night, and we even spoke about patriarchy!!!!! (lots more exclamation points). I felt sad, embarrassed and above all disappointed coming out of the call. I had so wanted to have this conversation. And it just didn't end the way I'd hoped. I couldn't focus on the process. I got stuck in story mode. I was thinking we are so close. And yet so far from pinning down the issue at the core. At the end, I was telling myself the actions (by which she means the appreciations that she agreed to share) were a bandaid." She says, "I'm going to debrief and explain the aftermath here so I can hopefully get the most out of this. And for a wonderful coach, which of course was CG. First before going into my turn to speak I felt flooded. I had high arousal, unpleasant effect, rapid heart feeling of being lost, scared to dig into the problem with no resolution in sight. I should have taken the pause that CG offered me and maybe more. Second, and perhaps very tied to the first I had a dominant story in my head that I didn't know how to articulate in the format of the call. Or even if I should or even if I could. Jono expressly said months ago he did not want to discuss the P word on a Your Parenting Mojo call until he was ready. And any one on one two attempts I have made to discuss patriarchy had been met with insurmountable defensiveness.

Jen Lumanlan: 34:21

The story I was telling myself is it is the patriarchy and capitalism and probably White supremacy that has Jono feeling apprehensive and gives rise to unmet needs for accomplishment, achievement, satisfaction, and appreciation. Our choices are non standard and don't follow traditional measures of success. There's no increase in stuff wealth or status. And the story I was telling myself is that periodically once every few months Jono gets bogged down in these feelings of apprehension. And instead of interrogating this and perhaps seeing it for what I think it is--a system that doesn't care about what brings you joy and only wants you to measure yourself against others, to perpetuate a power differential to drive productivity, Jono blames Rue and I for holding Jono back. Jono can't achieve more because he's busy with Rue because Rue asks for Jono's attention, resentful of me because Jono sees it as an expectation of mine that he will be a present and engaged father. And additionally resentful of me because if only I could do more of the skilled practical things, Jono could have time for things he enjoys, instead of feeling only the weight of everything a man and provider should do on his shoulders.

Jen Lumanlan: 35:30

To reiterate, that is my story. So that was what was in my head that I couldn't get past and that story was flooding me. What I should have been thinking about was thank all that is wonderful that he doesn't want me doing more domestic duties 1920 style. I know that's flippant, I simply mean to acknowledge that with a systemic issues, the problem as I see, it could be so much worse. But I got defensive and critical. He is saying society is placing all these competing things on his plate. And Dee also has expectations. And that is true. And I'm upset that he didn't say patriarchy is putting all this stuff on my plate. And sometimes I blame you instead of fully exploring that. Why? Why did I care so much about that distinction? Why did I get so bogged down in that? So much learning and unlearning still to do. I ran into another member after the call. And then she thanked that member for holding space for her big feelings. I had a light bulb moment after our conversation, noted with a light bulb emoji below. Last night after we went to bed, I apologize to Jono that I wasn't able to simply state my feelings that I had been so blaming something we're both actively working on with mixed success obviously. We each shared five things we appreciated about each other. And then I asked Jono if he was willing to hear my feelings and what I heard him say and what has shifted for me. He said "yes."

Jen Lumanlan: 36:42

So in that conversation, Dee said, "I felt sad and apprehensive this last week, I've been worrying over the past week and during the call that you feel downtrodden for systemic reasons, because we live in a culture that values only a very narrow vision of success. And instead of seeing this as a contributing and major factor, you blame ruin it when you don't feel successful. But something shifted for me after the call. What I thought I heard you say during the call is we are choosing a non standard lifestyle. And at times you do feel downtrodden by society's patriarchal and capitalist measures of success that don't match how we live because there's no substantial increase in wealth or stuff or status. And then there's a light bulb emoji. And sometimes society comes knocking. And in those times and front loaded, you need me to back you up and say, "I see you, I see what you do for us. I appreciate you. I think you are successful. You hold high status to me, you are doing amazing things. X, Y And Z make our life more wonderful. I love you."

Jen Lumanlan: 37:45

And hopefully this can reduce the chatter fed in from the outside world that says success is only financial and only status. What do you think? And then Jono said "yes," and Dee said, "whoa." And then she went on, we went on to talk for another hour about life and love and systems and how Jono feels shame when he yells or power overs Rue, because it reminds him of his childhood and feeling powerless and angry. And we finished by each of us sharing one thing that the other could do to make our lives more wonderful this week. I hope we can have this conversation many times over. There were heaps of layers to the conversation to too much to read, I think but lots for me to consider. Mostly I'm thinking on how I can level the playing field for partnership instead of a patriarchy. And what is at the root of the defensiveness for me, feelings of inadequacy around not doing more of the physical labor, financial contribution, mental load of saving versus spending for financial sustainability and capital improvement, reducing long term workload all of these perhaps. And then she inserted some bullet points she said, I've committed to two months of daily appreciations regardless of the mood and keeping it up if it's useful. I'm already quite practical nowhere near as Jono, though so I'm going to double down on these efforts. I'd love to learn a practical skill of ongoing use to us just have to think of something goodness knows I've thought on this. So any ideas are welcome. I'm going to muck in more with any labor to be done to up the team feel. I'm going to retain my focus on rubingh and nurture and talking about the importance of everyone nurturing for equality. I'm going to talk to Jono about redoubling our efforts to limit external gratification for Rue. And I'm going to steadfastly demonstrate and encourage being non binary in all of us. These three and I'm always looking for more specifically to reduce passing patriarchal norms down the line. Biggest I'm going to wait a week to retry this type of conversation with Jono, following the script so we can work together on ongoing strategies tailored to the specific needs. I want to do one more conversation by ourselves to get some practice and then I'd like to have another call with CG peer coaching us if she's willing. Wish me luck and tell me what I'm missing. I'd love to hear if this or the call resonates for anyone or people's thoughts and ideas for improvement." And then Dee concluded by thanking the people who are on the call for their support and we chatted in the comments about some of the kinds of skills she could easily learn and put to use in the house that they're remodeling. She's also going to research some budgeting software she can use so she can take on the mental load of that work.

Jen Lumanlan: 40:07

And once again, I want to point out the Dee and Jono haven't solved the issue. The Gottmans say that 69% of problems couples face are intractable meaning they never really get solved. We can debate the validity of their methodology on that. They basically asked couples during their intake interview what they thought about and then they asked them again a year later what they were fighting about, and 69% of the topics were the same. We don't know how much if any help these couples had in between, or if they were really fighting at the beginning, and it was more of a disagreement by the end or vice versa. But I think we can safely say that a pretty big proportion of the things we disagree over are not one time issues, but they're recurring in nature. The Gottmans actually say that even with couples with whom they work directly, they aren't looking to resolve the issue. They want to move toward what they call being in dialogue on an issue, meaning they can talk about it without having a huge blow up. And they can agree on some things to try and then try them and regroup and see if they worked in the way the couple thought they would. And if not to try something else. And I'm sure you can see that Dee and Jono are very much in dialogue on this issue.

Jen Lumanlan: 41:12

Now, part of that happened on the coaching call, but a big chunk of it happened afterward. And it happened because an untrained peer coach was there on the call helping them to stick to the framework and notice the Four Horsemen when they came up.

Jen Lumanlan: 41:25

So if you wish that you could have this kind of conversation with your partner and have some movement instead of just repeating your positions over and over again, as you both get more frustrated, and start to be in dialogue on these challenges so you can see some forward progress even if you don't solve them entirely, then I would love to work with you in the Parenting Membership. Yes, it's a membership about parenting. And parenting often involves disagreements about parenting. Yes, the membership will help you in your relationship with your children. But it will also help you in your relationship with your partner. If you and your partner have at least one and maybe more than one issue where you cannot seem to make progress. And you're basically having the same conversation each time you talk about it. These tools will help with that. And of course, they also help with the daily struggles like how to get out the house in the morning what to do when your child prefers one parent over another how to navigate conflict in front of the kids.

Jen Lumanlan: 42:20

When you join the Parenting Membership, you'll spend your first month learning some problem solving tools that are primarily focused on challenges with your children. But they also form the foundation of the Gottman tools you'll learn in your second and third months. We have demo videos already in waiting for you to watch. I will support you and your partner directly on group coaching calls. And we also have peer coaches who can then help you in the more ongoing conversations it will take to be in dialogue on the ongoing issues.

Jen Lumanlan: 42:47

If you or your partner identify as a dad, we also have a Dad Circle led by a dad and therapist where dads can develop a kind of relationship that truly supports them. Many dads in our community are fed up of being in spaces where they get praised for being able to change a diaper. They want to have genuine relationships with other men where they can share their struggles. If they have female partners, it can be hard to explore that stuff, when their partner has done a lot of reading and listening to podcasts and thinking about these topics and the dad isn't quite sure about them and has questions but doesn't have a place to express their uncertainty, Dad Circle's a place where dads can do that, with guidance and support from a peer dad who also happens to be a practicing psychologist and without me or other women present.

Jen Lumanlan: 43:30

And if you're single parents at the moment, then unless you are definitely going to remain single for the rest of your life, which is a totally valid choice, if that is your choice, then I know from experience and from talking with parents that our communication patterns tend to follow us from one relationship to the next they do not magically disappear, we enter a new relationship. And if both of us and our partner have already been in long term relationships, chances are we are both bringing unhealthy communication patterns with us. So rather than thinking that because you're single, you don't need Parenting As A Team modules, you might consider that a phase of life when you're single is a great time to work on learning new skills that you can take into a new relationship when you're ready. I know some people aren't sure about the membership format, they'd rather take a course that has a defined duration. But I'm wondering if maybe you've ever done therapy or even couples therapy with your partner? Maybe you already learned some skills that were really helpful when you practice them with a therapist present, or outside of the therapy session, but then reporting back to the therapist each week? You might have been able to make some good progress on the issue while you were in therapy but therapy is expensive, so you can't do it for an extended period of time.

Jen Lumanlan: 44:37

This isn't therapy, but most couples who are committed to a relationship don't actually need therapy. They need help following a cheat sheet and staying on track when they forget to follow this cheat sheet. The membership format allows you to keep getting support in an affordable way for as long as you need it. In fact, if you're a member for five continuous years, you can stay as long as you like and stay after that for free. We have a cohort of mebers who are at that point right now. And it can be incredibly helpful to hear from them when you're having a challenge because they can show you they went through something very similar they got through it and how they got through it and give you hope that things will be easier. Members develop deep relationships with each other that just isn't possible in a short course that you go through mostly by yourself. We've already supported each other and beginning to heal from the shame we experience in our lives and the shame our children experience as well. And now we can support each other in the challenges we face with our coparents too.

Jen Lumanlan: 45:31

Parenting Membership is open for enrollment between May 5th and 15th. We have sliding scale pricing and a money back guarantee. You can get all the details on the membership at YourParentingMojo.com /parentingmembership. And if you need help talking with your partner about joining the membership, I also have a very short document you can print or email to them to share some of the details and benefits. You can get that on the page where this episode lives at YourParentingMojo.com/parentingpartners.

Adrian: 46:02

If you'd like Jen to address the challenge you're having in parenting, just email your one minute video or audio clip to support@YourParentingMojo.com and listen out for your episode soon.