Shownotes
- Distinction Between Influencers and Thought Leaders: We discuss the marked difference between influencers, who often rely on flashy and surface-level content, and thought leaders, who aim for deeper, more impactful communication. Thought leaders inspire meaningful change and longevity in their influence, rather than just short-term attention.
- Ethical Use of Social Proof and Testimonials: Both of us emphasize the importance of using legitimate testimonials and social proof in your marketing strategies. We underscore the need to obtain explicit permission from clients before using their feedback and to pair testimonials with photos or videos for added authenticity.
- Impact of Emotional Marketing: Stacy critiques the long-term inefficacy of emotional manipulation in marketing, stressing that people eventually gravitate towards brands that make them feel inherently good. It's crucial to focus on creating positive and genuine emotional connections with your audience.
- Modern Marketing Trends: We talk about the shift from traditional sales messages to storytelling and creating positive emotional connections. This evolution reflects a broader trend towards more human and relatable marketing strategies, which resonate more deeply with consumers.
- Strategic and Ethical Marketing Practices: We highlight the effectiveness of understanding and addressing the true motivations and desires of your target audience. Stacy outlines the significance of discussing benefits, such as reducing stress or increasing family time, over just listing features. Additionally, Sara recommends the simple exercise of consistently asking "so what" when evaluating sales pages to reach the core message.
Transcripts
What is happening, everybody? I'm Sara Losi, and this is Branded. Larry can't be here today, but he says hello. And I am so excited to introduce my guest who's really my. My co host for today since it's just the two of us, but it's Stacy. Let's go. She is a website copywriter, brand messaging strategist, and she helps businesses define their brand story and clearly communicate it to their dream clients. We going to be talking about some, you know, no BS Marketing and taking a look at some of the things that people do to kind of clickbait their clients into working with them and the better ways to do it because nobody likes that. So, Stacy, welcome to Brandon, and excited to have you here.
Stacy Eleczko [:Thanks. I'm excited to be here. A little bit of pressure with the co host. I don't know If I'll have any 80s, you know, references like Larry, but I'll do my best to bring it.
Sara Lohse [:If you do, I won't get them, so it's fine. I never get them when he says it either. I actually. Okay. Since you brought that up last week, I'm on a meeting. We're meeting with a client, and I was like, oh, I feel like the song for the show should be, like, the Indiana Jones theme song. And then I started humming the final countdown from Rocky, and they're like, that is not Indiana Jones. I'm going to hang up, and y'all can continue this wonderful conversation without me.
Sara Lohse [:And I'm going to hide under my desk. Desk.
Stacy Eleczko [:Oh, my God. That's so funny. But you got a good story out of it.
Sara Lohse [:Everything happens for a story, right? That's, you know, it's the way it is, especially in my life. Well, I'm excited to really dig into this. One of the things that, I mean, we. We are very similar in what we do. I started as a copywriter. I do brand strategy, brand messaging, and all of that. And we see it all the time with what. What you call the, like, the bs, the sleazy, like, marketing copy.
Sara Lohse [:And tell us more about that. Like, what is it that you see the most that you just cringe at?
Stacy Eleczko [:Oh, gosh. Well, how long do you have?
Sara Lohse [:About 30 minutes.
Stacy Eleczko [:There you go. I see it in both, like, brand messaging and the copywriting. So I want to start with the brand messaging first, even though that wasn't really what you asked. Go for it. But, you know, just thinking. Because that's the foundation of what you're going to write about. And so I think lately there's Been all these big buzzwords. People have been throw around, like, authenticity.
Stacy Eleczko [:And I'm about authenticity. Like, don't get me wrong, being authentic is a good thing, but to use it as one of your brand values because it's, you know, jumping on the bandwagon of what everybody else is doing is the opposite of being authentic. And so I really always struggle when I hear brands talking about what they value and what's important to them, and that changes based on whatever trends there are in the marketplace. So to me, that's super shady.
Sara Lohse [:I feel like part of that probably is due to ChatGPT.
Stacy Eleczko [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:And everything these days is authentic. It's holistic. Yep, it's always holistic. And we always delve into why these are holistic and authentic.
Stacy Eleczko [:That's true. Right, because it's going to skyrocket our sales.
Sara Lohse [:Oh, a hundred percent. Yes.
Stacy Eleczko [:No, I mean, and I think there's truth to that. But also, you know, on the flip side of that, whatever's on ChatGPT is because it's things people have been saying, you know, and so I think that it's. It doesn't set you apart when you're doing all these things that all these other businesses are already doing, and it definitely doesn't make you authentic. So I just, I hate that piece of, like, this is our mission, this is our vision. These are our values. These are the things that set us apart. When you really are just copying what other people are doing and what you're emulating what's working for them, that's not going to work for you. So, you know, that's.
Stacy Eleczko [:That's sort of the foundational piece. But when it comes to copywriting, I think the biggest thing for me is, is it's about, you know, we know people buy with emotion or they, you know, justify with logic. But mainly we're emotionally driven. We're humans. And so, you know, it's not like you can't draw upon emotion when you're speaking to people in the copy. But there's a fine line between evoking emotion and exploiting emotion. Yes. And copy that exploits emotion, I just think has no room, there's no room for.
Stacy Eleczko [:In the marketing for that. Um, and so this is things like agitating pain points unnecessarily. I recently talked to this story got me really upset. I recently talked to a business coach who had a client of hers that paid all this money for brand messaging strategy, and she served women with alopecia. And the entire marketing strategy was around agitating the pain Point around their hair loss and how it made them feel.
Sara Lohse [:That is mean.
Stacy Eleczko [:It is. It's so mean. Because, you know, like, it's going to work, right? Nobody's going to say these sales tactics will actually work. If you beat someone down and make them feel like garbage about themselves, and then you pivot and say, I have this solution for you. People will buy it. Yeah, but that's not ethical. That's the kind of thing that is just so shady, is when you know a practice is going to work and you use it just for the sake of a sale without thinking about the toll it takes on the human on the other side of your screen.
Sara Lohse [:Now, when you said it that originally, I thought of a different kind of example. And I want to get your take. Is this what you're talking about, too? So I deal a lot with storytelling and helping people tell their stories. And people think that the story that they tell has to be their childhood trauma story. And they will try to shoehorn it in to every presentation, every speech. Like, that's really just where they, like, stake their claim. And then they try to connect it to a pitch or a message that just does not at all connect. So it's like I was adopted and then I had childhood cancer and then I was an orphan.
Sara Lohse [:So buy my software to improve your emails. Why? What?
Stacy Eleczko [:Yes, it's okay. So I actually have the perfect example. I took a screenshot of this email that I got recently, and I was, like, feeling petty about. I really been wanting to write a post about it on LinkedIn. And then I feel like it's going to be petty, but I'm just going to go ahead and do it.
Sara Lohse [:We love petty.
Stacy Eleczko [:Right after the election and, you know, all these people were sending emails, like, just checking in or, you know, how are things going this week? And so I got an email and the subject line was just checking in. And then the preview text was like, really? I just want to make sure you're okay. So I was, you know, curious. I opened it and the whole first two paragraphs were all about, you know, I know that this can be a challenging time for some people, and I want to express. And she pivoted after two paragraphs right into. And that's why you should buy my new. I was like, are you kidding me? So, like, I took a screenshot before I unsubscribed, but, like, quickest unsubscribe on the planet because, no, you don't actually give a how I'm doing. You didn't care about me and that to me is like, that's just where's the conscious when you're emailing someone to say, like, I'm just checking in, are you okay? And really I'm just trying to sell you something.
Stacy Eleczko [:And so that, that kind of thing, I think it's, you know, similar to the story you were just sharing.
Sara Lohse [:Yeah, we actually, Larry and I were judges at a speaking competition a couple months back, and everyone had exactly 10 minutes to give a speech and they wanted you to tell stories because that's what speeches should be. And I think 10 out of 10 of them were a traumatic, this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me story. And it's like 8 out of 10 of them. It did not connect to the message. And we were just sitting there like, yeah, that's great, I'm crying, but why am I. Why did you make me cry right now? Like, why did you have to do this? This is nothing to do with, like, the story you were telling and the message you were trying to present.
Stacy Eleczko [:Yeah. And long term, that's not a sustainable, sustainable strategy. But I mean, like, short term, things like that definitely work. And that's where I'm always so hesitant to post something that's like, hey, this, you know, here's this. Let me spin this into a business analogy because most of the time, like, it's just not. I posted on LinkedIn once, I'm like, what a trip to the botanical garden taught me about business. And then I was like, nothing. Don't read crap like this.
Sara Lohse [:Can you post that? And like, that is the article. Just nothing. Don't recap like this.
Stacy Eleczko [:That's what I totally did. And so I actually, it's funny, last week posted something about. And I think this, the subject line was something like, I once dated a guy in college just because he was hot.
Sara Lohse [:I think I saw that.
Stacy Eleczko [:Yeah. All these people were like, I was curious to see where this was going, but I actually pivoted it to making sense about like, you know, it caught my attention that he was hot, but it wasn't a sustainable relationship. Right. Like, I got tired of that really quickly. And it's the same thing with when your content, you know, you're just doing surface level attracting people. So to me, I feel like that was an actual real connection that I was able to make. But doing it in that other way of, like, I want to get you just to read this because I want you to follow my content or I want you to, you know, click on my website or do this thing it, like I said, it works short term, but yeah, you know to what, to what effect?
Sara Lohse [:I think that's the difference between being an, like an influencer and being a thought leader. It's like the influencers are going to post the flashy, like, I want to follow this person because they look good or they like, I'm going to wear those sunglasses like Regina George wore army pants and flip flops. So I bought army pants and flip flops. But the thought leaders are the ones that actually make you like stop and think and change your perspective or appreciate something new. And that is what's sustainable. That's what's going to build your brand past the facade.
Stacy Eleczko [:Exactly, exactly. And you know, if any marketing, I think, you know, even the, the marketing that does work effectively, I.e. exploiting emotions over time, I mean there's something to be said for brand loyalty. And at some point people are either going to realize like, hey, your marketing makes me feel like garbage and they're going to go find someone else to work with or they're not even going to perceive you as a solution anymore. Right. They're just going to want to stop reading your emails, stop reading your advertising because all you're doing is making them feel feel bad themselves. And whenever I see advertising like that, I'm like, no, advertising should never make you feel crappy.
Sara Lohse [:And I think that's also why like the, like, I guess the trends and like advertising marketing are changing so heavily and you don't see a lot of like the traditional unless you're like watching television where it's like TV ads. You don't see a lot of those like old timey sales messages because everyone is starting to realize you have to weave it into stories. You have to do all of this. And there's better ways to evoke emotion than the just classic, this is what's wrong with you and here's how to fix it.
Stacy Eleczko [:Exactly.
Sara Lohse [:Yeah. So how, how do you, how do you recommend we, we fix that? How, what are the better ways to do it? How do you get rid of that bs?
Stacy Eleczko [:Well, I think that's a loaded question. You said we only have 30 minutes. But let's go a couple of initial thoughts here. I mean, I think it's just really everything always goes back to connecting with your target audience. Like you have to become obsessed with your ideal client and understand what motivates them, what triggers them to buy, what helps them make decisions. And yes, you know, I know that we buy to avoid pain. I understand all the sales psychology, but I also Know, people do want transformations. They do have hopes, they do have dreams.
Stacy Eleczko [:And there are things that motivate and trigger them to buy that are beyond just, you know, those pain points. And so I think it starts with really in depth research and getting to know your clients. Because if your copy is speaking directly to them and they feel seen and they feel valued, you don't need to resort to things like agitating those pain points. For sure. Definitely bring up, like, hey, it's really frustrating when XYZ happens, and then move on to, here's how I can help you with that. Like, here's how your life can be different or better after. So I think that, that, you know, in the copy itself, and then we didn't even talk about, there's, you know, so many tactics people use, like fake scarcity and urgency. And I think it's.
Stacy Eleczko [:It's just when people take tactics that are good, there's nothing wrong with scarcity if there's genuine scarcity. But, you know, this like, hey, my PDF download and limited copies. No, there's not. Like, that's. No, there's.
Sara Lohse [:No, that's not how that works. That's just you turning it off.
Stacy Eleczko [:Right, Right.
Sara Lohse [:Which you can say, if that's how you want to do it. Be like, I am shutting this link down after the first 25 people. But don't at least word it honestly.
Stacy Eleczko [:Right, yes.
Sara Lohse [:You see so much of that and it's the, like, we only have one spot left for the first six people who take it.
Stacy Eleczko [:Right.
Sara Lohse [:Like, okay.
Stacy Eleczko [:Or my favorite is the email. The after, like the. Oh, I know I said that the sale was closing at midnight, but, you know, all these people have been emailing me since. Or there was a glitch with the tech. No, there wasn't.
Sara Lohse [:No, no, no. You just didn't get the numbers you wanted and now you're trying again.
Stacy Eleczko [:Exactly. And just say that.
Sara Lohse [:Yeah. And it, it amazes me that things like that still work. Like, don't people see through it?
Stacy Eleczko [:I think at some point they do. And I guess, you know, it just sort of depends, I think, on where people are. So when I first started out copywriting everything that was like, learn this about copywriting. Or, you know, here's how to do this with freelancing. I was like, oh, let me read all the things. And then once you start feeling more confident and comfortable and you know, under what you're doing and you feel like you're an expert, you start to see through those things. So I think it just depends if you're targeting people who are in that stage of either, like, problem unaware, or they're aware they have a problem, but they don't know all their solutions, then they're going to consume all the things, and so it's more likely that they'll fall for those. So I think it's, again, if you know where people are in their buying journey and you exploit that, that's also shady.
Sara Lohse [:Oh, yeah. And I feel like the companies that do this the most have, like, a cult following, and people do not care. And I was. I was a speaker at this event that was meant to, like, teach people how to be speakers. And I am. It's a group, so people are paid members into this, like, into this group. I'm not. I didn't.
Sara Lohse [:I do not buy into it. I was there just speaking. And the woman who runs it, she's giving her presentation, and it's how she gets people to buy into this group. And she's like, so here is, like, in this part of your speech, you want to lay this foundation for this, and then that. That leads up to this, and people are, like, on the edge of their seat. And, like, y'all, that's how she got you here. Aren't you seeing this? Like, you are. You're learning how to make people fall for the thing you just fell for.
Sara Lohse [:Yeah, I was in awe of the cult, like, reaction to this. I'm just. I'm like, how sheep like you did. She did this to you. It felt so. So slimy.
Stacy Eleczko [:Yeah, that's awful. But I mean, it goes to that whole social proof thing, right? And where that's another way people exploit people is, oh, hey, I have, you know, 70,000 followers or 100,000 followers. And so they put things out there that they know aren't necessarily the greatest quality or whatever, but people are gonna buy it just because so many, you know, so many other people are following them. And so you can make a fortune that way if you're selling a $10 product to tens of thousands of people, you know, and so I think that that's another, you know, pretending you have expertise in an area and just you've grown a following and then you're using that to make sales, not really solving someone's problem.
Sara Lohse [:What are, like, we mentioned a few. But, like, other tactics that you've seen people use that you're just instantly just.
Stacy Eleczko [:No, I mean, the clickbaity is a problem, I can tell you. So using social proof in the wrong way, that's something else that really gets me really Upset. I actually wrote one of my first emails I sent to my email list was about this. And I cannot tell you the number of replies that I got. And I even had some people who were like, oh my gosh, was it this person? Because I think they did the same thing to me. And I was like, anything.
Sara Lohse [:But was it?
Stacy Eleczko [:Yes, it was.
Sara Lohse [:Name them. Name them.
Stacy Eleczko [:I won't do it. I cannot tell you the amount of pressure. People are like, please just tell me. But basically what he did is, okay.
Sara Lohse [:So it's a he.
Stacy Eleczko [:It's a he. That's all I'm giving you.
Sara Lohse [:We narrowed it down 50%.
Stacy Eleczko [:50%, that's it. He said, yeah, on LinkedIn and gave me like, I don't know, some piece of advice or something, right? He just said, just a little tip. And so being polite, I messaged him back. And I was like, oh, thanks for that. You're thanks for the tip on whatever it was. I really appreciate it. And he had asked me about a deal that I had been talking to him about. And then I told him, oh, and I closed the deal, blah, blah, blah.
Stacy Eleczko [:Had nothing to do with the advice that he gave me. And then I'm on LinkedIn a couple of days later and I see a screenshot of our dm, which, first of all, that's a private dm. And that, that bothers me. Like, ask somebody's permission. Didn't ask my permission. And there's a screenshot and he's using it as a testimonial for his course, which I did not take. And so I immediately sent him, was.
Sara Lohse [:Your name in it?
Stacy Eleczko [:So this is the other thing he did. My name was so in the first. It was in it. And I emailed him and I or DMs him. I was like, I need you to take that down. I was like, you didn't ask my permission. That has nothing to do. It's totally taken out of context.
Stacy Eleczko [:And I was like, you should have either asked me first or you should have made sure that my name was removed from it. Right? So I got this whole like, oh, I'm so sorry, my VA posted that and I didn't double check it. I'll take it down right away. So it did actually get taken down. And this is another quick unsubscribe. I was on his email list. Like a week later, an email comes out with the same screenshot in it. And he lightly crossed through my name and like, just a little bit of my picture, but enough that anybody who had seen me before would know that it was me.
Stacy Eleczko [:And he used it again as a testimonial for his course. And actually one of the people who reached out to me said they had.
Sara Lohse [:Actually purchased his course because of you.
Stacy Eleczko [:Because of it. Oh, I was so mad. So I unsubscribed.
Sara Lohse [:Did you like, report him to like, the Better Business Bureau or something?
Stacy Eleczko [:I should have, like, I mean, I definitely blocked him after sending him, you know, some choice words there. But I was like, what you did is absolutely horrendous. Like, yeah, somebody trusted in me. And so they made this purchase. And so I think that that's kind of an egregious example. But I don't.
Sara Lohse [:That happened to me too, though. Kind of. Okay, so I met this, this girl, she was like a sales coach and she wanted to launch a podcast. So on trade I was like, I'll launch you a podcast. And she let me into her Mastermind, which was like a 8 or $9,000 mastermind for just like an 8 week thing. And I, the. I think it was like the first session, I had been in talks with a friend of mine who had just started a job at this company and they had already been planning on launching a podcast and they needed someone to come in and help. So me and her had been talking about it.
Sara Lohse [:I'd already had the meeting in person to discuss it, and they already had the proposal and everything. And so I get into this first Mastermind session and she's like, okay, so everyone give like a win for the week. And I was like, oh, I just closed the deal. I'm bringing on a new client. She's like, oh, amazing. Like, how, like, what's. How much is the contract? And I said 3,000amonth with a six month minimum. This, like, the next day I see a post from her on LinkedIn saying, so proud of my client, who after just one, like, meeting with me, closed an $18,000 contract.
Stacy Eleczko [:Oh my gosh. I have to. Okay, I'm going to ask you when this recording is over. I have a feeling I know who might be.
Sara Lohse [:Oh, my gosh. Okay. And then you have to tell me who yours was. But as soon as I saw that, I'm like. And like, I thought she was a friend. Like, I, like, we were like already friends at this point. And I'm like, that you had nothing to do with that? Yeah, I'm like, that was. And I was like.
Sara Lohse [:Because I had like a personal relationship with her, I was just. I didn't know what to do. I was so uncomfortable and I kind of just started sliding it into, like, the next time I talked to her because she had texted me after she posted that saying, like, congrats again. I'm so proud of you. I'm like, thanks. Yeah, my. My friend was like, really great for hooking me up with this, like, opportunity, and I couldn't have done it without her. Like, just be like, you had nothing to do with this, did she?
Stacy Eleczko [:What did she say?
Sara Lohse [:I don't even. I don't know. I don't remember. This was like a year ago. I ended up, like, the client was terrible. We ended up ending the contract after two months after I threatened to sue them. But still, friends with my friend, not the sales coach. Haven't.
Sara Lohse [:But it's. It's amazing. Like, people will post testimonials that just don't exist, and they post that social proof that doesn't exist, and people fall for it.
Stacy Eleczko [:Yes. I mean, because social proof is powerful. It's such a. Such a great tool when you have legit testimonials.
Sara Lohse [:But then, like, I looked back at, like, all of her posts, and all of them were like that. It's like, my client did this. Like, my client did that. I'm like, how many of these are complete bs?
Stacy Eleczko [:Yep.
Sara Lohse [:It was that moment. I'm like, okay, this girl is a fraud. Like, a complete fraud. And I knew people who, like, one of my clients wanted to partner with her on something, and I'm just like, don't do it. Like, don't put your name with her. Just don't.
Stacy Eleczko [:Because if you have real results, you don't need to use those kinds of. I know.
Sara Lohse [:And like, I put, like, I post testimonials, but they are actual testimonials that I permission to post. And I'll even like, working with some of my clients that I am working on their brand messaging. I'll interview their clients, and before I even ask them questions, I say, if there's anything that you say in this session that could be used as a testimonial, do I have your permission to post it as a testimonial? And they'll either say yes or they'll say yes, but send it to me first. And if they don't say that I do not use it. Like, I'll use. I'll incorporate it into copy or something, but I'll never use it as a testimonial. And I thought that was just common sense.
Stacy Eleczko [:You would think, right? I'm like, that's just common courtesy and respect. And, you know, it makes you Always question. It makes you question everything. And so, you know, best practices. Pair your testimonials with photos when you can, with names and all of those kinds of things. But even that, you know, if I hadn't happened to see that one LinkedIn post, how would I have known? So how many times does this happen when we're not even aware of it?
Sara Lohse [:Yeah, and that's why I also, if I. I don't often ask for testimonials, but, like, if someone might send me an email that says something that I'm like, hey, would you mind if I use this as a testimonial? But when I do ask, I ask for a video. Like, hey, could you record a quick video testimonial just talking about your experience? And they do. And sometimes I don't post a video. I will just post a quote. But at least, like, I have the video and I can, like, embed it on my website or I can do something with it, or I can even, like, if someone questions it, be like, hi, here it is.
Stacy Eleczko [:Yep, here's the video.
Sara Lohse [:Like, there's. There's just no trust and there's no, like, integrity anymore, it seems like.
Stacy Eleczko [:Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing, you know, I had a client who wanted me to do a sales page and gave me all of these testimonials to use. And I said, I thought this was the first time you were doing this course. And he said, well, it is. I said, then how do you have these testimonials? You know? And I said, if they're from something that's relevant or similar, absolutely, we can use them. We just need to be transparent about, like, where they came from or how it was related. I'm like, but you can't just put these out there. And he was.
Stacy Eleczko [:I mean, we ended up just getting rid of, like, I refunded him his money. I didn't write the rest of the sales page because he was so adamant about, like, nope, we're going to include these and you're going to do it this way. And I was like, yeah, I'm not going to do that. I want any part of it. I'm sure you'll find some other copywriter who'll be happy to do that for you. But, you know, that's just. It's not honest.
Sara Lohse [:Yeah, no, I went through something similar, too, with setting up a sales page for an online course that had never been done before, but it was connected to a book. So we used, like, testimonials from the book or from people who worked one on one with the person and they said that it's like, I've worked with this person for this many years and this is like what happened? Or I, I read the book and was able to apply this. So it's like there are ways to do it ethically, guys.
Stacy Eleczko [:Yes.
Sara Lohse [:Yeah. You don't have to be slimy. And if, if, if I know someone is like really good with one on one and they wrote a book that is really helpful, I'm going to assume the online course is going to be good.
Stacy Eleczko [:Right.
Sara Lohse [:You don't have to lie to me.
Stacy Eleczko [:Exactly. Yeah. If you're really giving something that's of value, then just be honest. I mean, that's what. I recently launched a cohort and it was the first time I did it as a cohort, but I had done the service one to one prior. So I used those testimonials and that made sense because it was the same service, it was one to one and it was, you know, people knew that it was the beta launch of this cohort. They were very clear with all of that, where the testimonials came from. Absolutely.
Stacy Eleczko [:You can use stuff like that, but yeah, just making stuff up or using random testimonials that have nothing to do or you didn't even buy their service. That's shady.
Sara Lohse [:And it's not hard to get honest testimonials. I have a form that it's like, if I do like a workshop or I do something with somebody, I just send them a form afterwards, like a feedback form that just says, like, how. How did you like it? Is there anything you would change? Anything that you like? What did you like about it? And then there's a checkbox at the bottom. Do I have your permission to use anything you say here as testimonial or marketing copy? If they say yes, it can become a testimonial. If it's good, if they say no, it's just for my knowledge. And if there's things that they said I should change, I take that into effect.
Stacy Eleczko [:Yeah. Yep.
Sara Lohse [:But you just, you send that to everyone and you get instant testimonials.
Stacy Eleczko [:And even things like, I mean, I will take screenshots all the time from texts or emails clients send me because I'm like, oh, that's amazing. Social proof. And I just email them back really quickly like, hey, thank you so much, I really appreciate that. Are you okay with me using this as social proof? And if you're good at your job and you're good at what you do, you're going to just get that social proof anyway. And so that's where I'm always so hesitant when I see things like that. Like, you know, the DM chat or whatever from the workshop and my client, you know, this, my client that, or like my client with just the initials my client sl. And I get it. Some people want to be anonymous.
Stacy Eleczko [:But if all of your clients are anonymous, I start to question.
Sara Lohse [:Yeah, I mean, I think at one point I was just doing like, last initial just because I didn't want to, like, call it. But then I'm like, wait, they did this? Like, they knew that I was going to use this. Like, I can put their name. And it's also kind of marketing for them because I also put their company. Exactly.
Stacy Eleczko [:Yes.
Sara Lohse [:Yeah. Like, that's just free marketing right there. But there are some things, like I. On my sales page for my book, I have a whole section where it's just like, I just screenshot things that people said, but it's things that they posted on social media. So it's like you're probably okay with people seeing this. You posted it.
Stacy Eleczko [:You posted it on social media.
Sara Lohse [:This is you giving my book a shout out.
Stacy Eleczko [:Yes.
Sara Lohse [:And I just have it labeled like love notes found in the wild or something.
Stacy Eleczko [:Yeah, that's perfect. And also, I'm really impressed. You made it like 29 minutes before you mentioned your book.
Sara Lohse [:Rude.
Stacy Eleczko [:See, I have to give something Larry to look at for Larry to look at later and appreciate about this.
Sara Lohse [:Okay. Is it. If anyone wants to learn how to tell their story, open this book.com. no, read it.
Stacy Eleczko [:You guys have to read. I do know some of the stories. I heard about some of the stories that are in there. And so for sure, people should read your book.
Sara Lohse [:And I also wasn't as petty as I was in the book because I didn't name the person because in the book I call out somebody and I literally say one woman. And we'll call her Lisa because that's her name. Like, I'm not going to protect you. Like, if I had your last name, it would be in there too. I want to make you famous. And I've searched.
Stacy Eleczko [:Potentially a favor.
Sara Lohse [:Yeah, it's for, you know, no, publicity is bad publicity. Right, Right. No, I. I've searched for her, trying to figure out what her last name is. I want to send her a signed copy. Oh, my gosh, I can't find her. No one knows where she is. We've set.
Sara Lohse [:We've had like, task forces in place trying to figure out who this girl was.
Stacy Eleczko [:That's hysterical. Somebody has to read your book one day and know who.
Sara Lohse [:I know her. I know Lisa.
Stacy Eleczko [:If you know who Lisa is, please reach out.
Sara Lohse [:Oh, my God. I'm going to post that. Like, have you seen Lisa? Oh, my God. I want to. I'm going to make a wanted poster.
Stacy Eleczko [:And you need a version two of your book. And that needs to be like, hey, when you get to the Lisa story, if you recognize her, here's how you can contact me.
Sara Lohse [:Oh, my God, you have so many ideas. This is. You're so good at this. All right, so we talked a lot about what not to do. Let's give a few what to dos.
Stacy Eleczko [:Let's segue there.
Sara Lohse [:Yes, I can do it, too, Larry.
Stacy Eleczko [:Yeah, so I think again, you know, it just goes back to what I mentioned at the beginning. Connecting with your target audience, really knowing what drives them and what motivates them and what they're hoping to achieve, and using that in your marketing and in your copywriting to connect with them. And so really helping them picture what this transformation is and making sure they understand how your solution actually solves their problem. Because I really do. I just believe if you connect with people and you make them feel seen, they will connect with your content. It will resonate, and, you know, you're more likely to convert people into potential clients or customers. And so I think that's just the key piece, is connecting with what matters to them, you know, And I think being transparent in your copy is really important, too. I love the, you know, who is this for? Who is this not for? Not when people do it.
Stacy Eleczko [:See, that's another way people do it. Shady sometimes. Like, this is not for you if you don't have the dedication and commitment. I've seen that. But let people know who it's for and who it's not for upfront. Let people know what the kind of time commitment is that's involved in things. Make sure that you're giving people all the information they need in order to make informed decisions. And I think that that's a really important thing, is not withholding information from people.
Sara Lohse [:I think. And there's, like, some really simple, like, little tweaks that I think people really need to make to, like, have that connection be a little bit stronger. And one of the things that I talk about when I talk. When I talk to, like, clients about this is just switch out negative words for positive words.
Stacy Eleczko [:Yep.
Sara Lohse [:Like, it's. It's so simple. Like, instead of saying, like, you don't have to Be unhappy. Just say you can be happy. Like, just make that simple change. It lightens the whole tone of what you're doing, and it makes it feel like something like, oh, I want to do this, versus, like, kind of pushing it away. Like, well, how do you know I'm unhappy?
Stacy Eleczko [:Yep. Yeah. Or even if you do something like that, like in a headline, even if you are, you know, calling out something like being unhappy, then that sub headline, the copy right after should immediately turn around and talk about, like, how you can transform it or how you can change that. And, you know, instead of what I see people doing, which is like, let me just dig in and twist the knife a little bit more. You know, it's the. Let me just show you how that can be different for you.
Sara Lohse [:Yeah. And then I think the other one is switching from I to you. Like, I can do this. It's like. Or you can experience this.
Stacy Eleczko [:Yes, that.
Sara Lohse [:Like, this isn't about you. Like, I talk about this. Like, we, we met at the Badass Business summit and I was talking about pitching, like, how to pitch be on a podcast. We don't care about you. We care about us. Don't tell me what you do. Tell me what I can get. What is the value?
Stacy Eleczko [:It's funny because that to me is like, that's a given, right? Of course I'm going to talk about you, but I know that from being a copywriter. But yeah, that's always what's in it for them. And so that's what I tell people all the time. I love doing that. So what activity where people will say, well, this will help you streamline your operations. That's something you see a lot, right? Okay, so what, what does that mean for somebody? And then when, okay, so that means that they would have more time. Okay, so what, what does that mean? Okay, so that they would have less stress. Okay, so what? So then they go home earlier, they get to spend more time with your family, then that's what you can speak to them about instead of like, are you tired of feeling stressed out and overwhelmed and, you know, like, you don't have any time.
Stacy Eleczko [:It's like, hey, what if you could have gain, you know, time with your family stress free? And so it's just like you said, flipping it on its head, but really digging in. And what is what's in it for you? Or what's in it for me? That's what the customer always wants to know. And just speaking directly to that.
Sara Lohse [:I love that. And I think that's an exercise that Everyone should do, like, go to your own website, go to your own sales pages, and just ask yourself that. That's. It's so simple, but it's so genius. But everywhere that you say something, ask yourself, so what? And just keep doing it until you get to the heart of it.
Stacy Eleczko [:Yep.
Sara Lohse [:But it also makes me, like, come back to what we were talking about with stories, because you said you need to make that connection, and connections happen through stories. But stories don't have to be the traumatic childhood story. Testimonials are stories. Case studies are stories. Use things like that that actually relate and offer that social proof, offer that credibility. And you don't have to, like, bare it all to prove that you're good at what you do. Just talk about the stuff that you do and how it has helped other people, because that's what they want to know. It's about, what can you do for me?
Stacy Eleczko [:Yeah. And that's their stories. I love when people share their clients stories. Right. Like, this is how it helped. Because people can see themselves in other people's stories. And so, you know, helping them visualize what that transformation is, that's really powerful, and it's a really effective way instead of, you know, making people feel bad because they have hair loss.
Sara Lohse [:Oh, that one is. I would. Okay. So when I was a copywriter for an ad agency, we had a client that was like a tech. Like a stem camp for kids, and they wanted to, like, get more girls involved. Like, it was for, like, young kids. So they're like, okay, headline stem for girls. What.
Sara Lohse [:What's. What's the difference between stem for girls and stem for boys? Did you simplify it so our little lady brains can handle it?
Stacy Eleczko [:What made it easier for you?
Sara Lohse [:I. It still makes me mad. Like, that is my least favorite. And I had. We had to publish it because I gave them so many other options. And the client just be like, no. We're like, well, here's why that's a bad idea. No, we like it.
Sara Lohse [:I'm like, how about, like, bite like a girl B, Y T, E. How about, like, girl coders? Like, things that are cute that aren't. Make you feel bad about not being able to understand boy stem.
Stacy Eleczko [:Right, Right. Like, what do they do? Make their things pink?
Sara Lohse [:Like, not gonna lie. Like, I do make everything pink, so.
Stacy Eleczko [:I know.
Sara Lohse [:But I'll still buy things that aren't pink and paint them myself.
Stacy Eleczko [:I'll paint them myself.
Sara Lohse [:That. That example of just, like, how copy can just make everything worse is always what I think of, and it makes me upset.
Stacy Eleczko [:Well, and what you said the whole, well, we like it, but it's not about you. You are not your target audience. So you're not like, what do they care about? Because that's what you should be speaking to.
Sara Lohse [:Yep. No, it's, it's ridiculous. But you are clearly someone who knows how to see through the BS and not post brand copy that's filled with bs. So if someone wants to get in touch with you, learn more about what you do and how you do it, how can they do that?
Stacy Eleczko [:Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm always on LinkedIn, so that is the first best place to come find me. And then my website, which is being revamped so it'll be ready and refreshed in the next couple of months, but people could still check it out. It's just my name ww stacylesco.com and then my email list is a place where I love to connect with people too. I know people don't usually think of email lists as a place to connect, but like, I really love my email community and getting replies to my emails and have built a lot of great connections that way. So those are all great places to find me.
Sara Lohse [:Love it. And if you found value and not be us in this episode, hit that subscribe button so we can keep bringing these awesome episodes to you every week. Nailed it. That's such a Larry kind of thing. And I got to do it this time. But with that. Thank you so much, Stacy for being here. I'm Sara Lohse, he's Larry Roberts and we'll talk to you next week.
Stacy Eleczko [:Thanks Sara. I appreciate it.
