Erich Starrett hosts Dr. Brian Lambert - co-founder of OSC, SES, and co-host of Inside Sales Enablement seasons one and two, back in the Orchestrate Sales Studios, for part one of two.  A treat to have the epitome of past, present, and future enablement back on the property.

And yes, of course he was there at the original founding and one of the ~hundred four founders I'm on a mission to interview over time was right there with @Scott Santucci and the other 99-ish.

And BOY has it grown!  He did a Google search on Sales Enablement way back in 2008 and got a hundred hits. He just did it again in the pre show and ...how about six million!

Brian architected an early "PhD in Sales" building on an organizational behavior degree with an emphasis on sales in his dissertation, and multiple publications in academic journals.  Having also been cited over 200 times he may just be on Dr. Rob Peterson and Howard Dover's heels.

He's been a salesperson with a quota. He's been a sales manager with a team. He's been a sales enablement manager with a team of ~20. And most recently he took on the role of Big Data Value Architect at Elastic, where he is in a marketing messaging role, messaging enablement.

Highlights from the first part of our interview

PAST...

⌛️ Brian's reaction when he first heard the word "Enablement." (hint: it wasn't positive)

⌛️ Brian first crossed paths with @Scott Santucci at a conference an heard him speak about his blueprint. That's where he originally heard Scott share the vision of value architects, communicating value and being orchestrators.

⌛️ When at Forrester, Scott had to do a lot of work to sell this idea that there were people doing "this thing called Enablement." That people where challenging the status quo siloed view and breaking down the walls among sales training, marketing, ops, and other functions.

PRESENT

⌛️ Since corporate silos were born of the industrial revolution, why are they still the status quo and such a massive challenge in a hyper connected digital world where technically silos shouldn't matter?

⌛️ What does it mean to be an #Orchestrator? Why is it important?

⌛️ What if Enablement is not the right home for orchestration?

⌛️ Of the "four flavors of Sales Enablement" set forth at the SES founding, what percentage of each flavor would most who identify as Sales / Revenue enablement be?

💰Pipeline Enablement?

📝 Message Enablement?

👥 Organizational Enablement?

🎓 Talent Enablement?

FUTURE

⌛️ Brian's take on whether or not Sales Enablement will ever become the vision that the SES founders had of a cross-functional strategic function.

⌛️ Was the opportunity Covid presented by accelerating a move from the status quo to digital economy one that has been missed or is there still a hero's call to adventure for enablement?

⌛️ Accountability is not prevalent in most Enablement, or marketing, or operations. Salespeople are grounded in data and accountability. They are the ones that get fired.  When will there be more accountability for the support team?

Mentioned in this episode:

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Hello everyone.

2

And welcome the inside sales enablement

season three enablement history.

3

And boy, do we have the epitome

of past present and future

4

enablement right here with me.

5

Dr.

6

Brian Lambert, and I

might take up the first.

7

15 minutes just introing him

and then I'll let him fill in

8

the blanks on anything I missed.

9

So he was , of course, the original

co host of Inside Sales Enablement.

10

So we've got alumni back.

11

He was also the co founder

with me of orchestratesales.

12

com.

13

Personal history and legacy for me.

14

He was the one of the

original Sales enablement.

15

In fact, he was number two.

16

If you think about it through the

lens of Scott Santucci founding

17

the sales enablement practice

at Forrester back in the day.

18

The first person he hired was Brian.

19

So he was employee number two through

the lens of sales enablement consultancy.

20

And back then he was just

sharing a tidbit with me.

21

He did a Google search on sales

22

time frame and got a hundred hits.

23

He just did it this

morning in the pre show.

24

How about six million?

25

So I think we're on to something folks.

26

And so he is unique as well in that

when we talk about the flavors of sales

27

enablement, and yes, of course he was

there at the original founding and one of

28

the Those hundred coveted four founders

I'm hunting down over time was right

29

there with Scott in the other 99 ish.

30

And he does have in fact a PhD in

essentially sales and that was by choice.

31

He addressed it through organizational

behavior with an emphasis on sales.

32

Did a dissertation or two

or three academic journals.

33

He's been cited over 200 times.

34

He's maybe on Howard Dover's heels

and he's done a combination of

35

pretty much all of the flavors.

36

He's been a salesperson with a quota.

37

He's been a sales manager with a team.

38

He's been a sales enablement manager

with a team of, I don't know, 20 plus.

39

And most recently, and I'm excited

to hear more, his current title,

40

Big Data Value Architect at Elastic,

where he is in a marketing messaging

41

role, messaging enablement.

42

So all of that said, Brian you would

think I didn't miss anything, but fill

43

in the blanks for me before we dive

into the coveted seven questions of ISE.

44

Brian Lambert: I appreciate it.

45

That's probably way enough about me.

46

It's interesting.

47

I I don't get a chance to

really reflect on that.

48

I appreciate that.

49

And enough about me though.

50

I think for me, it's,

quite an interesting time.

51

There's a lot going on and I look

forward to definitely exploring that.

52

And thanks for having me on the show.

53

Erich Starrett: Absolutely.

54

Brian ecstatic to have you here.

55

Question one is almost funny to

ask you, when did you first hear

56

the words sales enablement and what

did, or do they mean to you, Dr.

57

Brian Lambert of sales enablement,

58

Brian Lambert: Yeah, it

59

The first time I heard it, I was like, I

have a people, a lot of people background.

60

So I thought about this idea of

enabling others as a negative thing.

61

I like you're an enabler and bad behavior.

62

I did read an article on Reddit that

asked somebody posted, Why do salespeople

63

all take drugs or drink too much?

64

And it's quite an interesting

Reddit thread, last week.

65

But

66

Erich Starrett: We could go down a

rabbit hole on that one couldn't we?.

67

,

, Brian Lambert: So that was the first time, and I remember looking

68

at who owns the domain name?

69

And somebody did, and I think it

was Craig Nelson and you might

70

want to have him on the show and

71

Erich Starrett: Yeah, he's

done it on very bullet point.

72

You nailed it, man.

73

Brian Lambert: Yeah, okay.

74

Yeah, so that's how I first

met him and there were a

75

couple of like online portals.

76

Back in the days of wikis, were big

and people just pouring articles

77

out and that's where I found it

78

and then I found scott who was at a

conference and I heard him speak about

79

his blueprint of sales and Had a really

interesting conversation with him there.

80

Erich Starrett: That's awesome.

81

So what, was there ever anything

other than those two words when

82

you and Scott were talking and

he was developing this blueprint?

83

Was it a potential?

84

Hey, maybe we shouldn't use

the word enablement or was

85

that the thing that made sense?

86

And you got on board with him?

87

What did that look like

behind the curtain?

88

Brian Lambert: Oh, yeah.

89

It made sense it because the way

we've always explored it is that

90

enablement is, it's a function

and it's a function that drives.

91

Sales excellence

92

at the time, we didn't really have

everything fleshed out, but it was very

93

robust because it covered everything

from, traditional sales training

94

behaviors all the way through to

this idea of being a value architect

95

and that's where my title

now is value architect.

96

That's where I originally heard

that and Scott shared is the vision

97

of value architects, communicating

value and being orchestrators,

98

which we didn't use that word.

99

But the concepts that we've worked

on now for, 20 years or so as

100

the first conversation we had

101

enablement then was

really not the discussion.

102

It was more of the concept

to what could this become and

103

let's just call it enablement.

104

And when we were at Forrester, Scott

had to do a lot of work to sell

105

this idea that there was a crowd,

that there were people doing this

106

because they were traditionally.

107

A siloed view of the people in

marketing, the people in sales

108

training, the people in sales ops.

109

And is there really a role?

110

And we spent a lot of time

trying to explain to people that

111

enablement really is the first

new digital economy role, right?

112

It didn't really matter , where it sat and

didn't really matter what it was called.

113

It was this idea that was not bound

by traditional siloed thinking.

114

And it worked in a way that it

helped people communicate value.

115

And the definition of value

is completely changing.

116

So that's why you need this role.

117

And that idea is, it really

118

Erich Starrett: I heard

you use the word role.

119

I heard you use the word function.

120

In fact, Scott put a poll out.

121

I never, I don't know that he came

back and said, Hey, here's what the

122

consensus was, but is sales enablement,

a role, a function, a profession.

123

Brian Lambert: A process, a technology?

124

Erich Starrett: Process?

125

Yeah.

126

Brian Lambert: Yeah.

127

My, my take is well, it's one

of those things where I've

128

been in it for a long time.

129

And I don't know if it will ever become

the vision that, that we had because.

130

I think it is mostly a

role in a technology.

131

I don't necessarily see it evolving to

the strategic function that we envisioned.

132

And there's a lot of things that point

to the fact that it's not making it.

133

But most of it has to do with the

fact that the sales enablement folks

134

that I talked to, many of them are not

really focused on the same things that

135

sales are from a strategy perspective

and a go to market perspective.

136

And the challenge that I have

with a lot of sales enablement

137

discussions today is they're not

grounded in data and accountability

138

salespeople are grounded

in, data and accountability.

139

They're the ones that get fired.

140

I know in the last year, personally,

at least 20 salespeople who've

141

been fired for not hitting quota.

142

And they're in organizations that have

sales enablement and it's like when

143

do, sales enablement people get fired

and that accountability and that focus

144

on the numbers is not prevalent in

most enablement quote unquote teams

145

, and that's why I don't think

it'll become a strategic function.

146

Erich Starrett: Without that, if,

there's a shot, if we can close that

147

gap and be more metric based because

the counter to that is, I would argue

148

from what I've seen and heard speaking

of people reaching out to you.

149

The profession, the role, whatever

you want to look at it through the

150

lens of is taking a pretty good hit.

151

Yeah.

152

As the economies had its slap or three.

153

And as you and I both,

I know vehemently agree.

154

There was such a huge

opportunity that COVID presented.

155

And we did the first two seasons

the, of the ISE leaned way into that

156

and went through the COVID time.

157

Is that an opportunity that you

think has been missed or is there

158

an opportunity to pull up the ship?

159

Brian Lambert: So if you use the

lands of the flavors, which I think

160

your listeners are familiar with

the flavors of enablement, if you

161

were to use that as a shape sorter,

triangles and squares and circles.

162

Those flavors are.

163

message enablement, pipeline enablement,

there's an organizational enablement, and

164

there's this idea of talent enablement

that are all flavors or pillars of

165

quote unquote enablement as a function.

166

And I think most of the sales enablement

people would get really sorted

167

into this talent enablement bucket.

168

And then if you look at what they're

doing, There's quite a few teams

169

that are really program management.

170

They're basically event planning.

171

So they're event planning, sales

kickoffs and sales events, but they

172

don't actually do the training.

173

Like they don't have the skills

to actually hold the room.

174

They don't actually do the sales training.

175

So they're really event

planners and coordinators of

176

people to show up at events.

177

So talent enablement one.

178

And then two, when you think about talent

enablement all the way from the hiring

179

profile to getting people promoted, et

cetera, are they getting people promoted?

180

Because a lot of salespeople

are getting fired.

181

So talent enablement angle,

if I sort everybody into

182

that, what percentage is that?

183

I think it's really high.

184

It's probably my guess is.

185

85 to 90 percent of sales enablement

is really talent enablement.

186

And when you look at what they're

doing I don't think they're actually

187

providing that service of what would,

what Scott would call hire to retire.

188

So underneath that, if I say 85

percent is talent enablement,

189

there's 15 percent left.

190

Where's everybody else?

191

They're hard to find in message

enablement, which is what I'm doing now.

192

I had to, that's a whole other.

193

Area of how do you create sales messaging?

194

And especially when you think

about the value of cost of

195

companies and communicating value.

196

And then you have pipeline enablement and

most sales enablement that do pipeline

197

enablement close to it are really in the

technology space, working on outreach or

198

et cetera, top of the funnel type things.

199

They're not full pipeline enablement.

200

And then organizational enablement how

many reorgs or mergers have enablement

201

people actually been involved in?

202

I've been, somewhat fortunate to be in

the room where we're actually redesigning

203

a, an enablement function during a

merger and figuring out the roles and

204

the processes and things like that.

205

And I just don't think there's

many people that have done that.

206

That are in the quote unquote

sales enablement space

207

.

They're in other roles and other functions like go to market strategy,

208

teams, commercial organizations . They're

considered more of the strategists and

209

enablement's, really the tacticians in,

talent enablement or sales training.

210

Erich Starrett: Yeah.

211

And those percentages are

generally the same ballpark.

212

I hear a 70 to 80 percent talent,

a 10 to 15 percent message.

213

And then the rest is some

combination of demand and

214

administration slash organizational.

215

But a lot of folks go, why

are you even bringing that up?

216

That's rev ops.

217

That's sales ops.

218

Brian Lambert: That's it.

219

Yeah, I've been in

those conversations too.

220

So if you look at, okay let's forget

where people sit and let's forget

221

where they report into for a second.

222

And let's just look at headcount and let's

just pull them out of an organization and

223

give everybody an index card and throw

it on a table and then have the executive

224

team come in and say, okay, which roles

do you think is doing sales enablement?

225

. That's where things get interesting

because without the org chart and

226

that's RevOps or they're over there.

227

That's an internal lens.

228

But when you take a external lens and

say who's responsible for really helping

229

salespeople sell, you're going to end up

in a really fascinating spot, which is.

230

Let's say you threw out 300 index cards.

231

And there are people that

technically sit in marketing.

232

There are people that sit in rev ops.

233

There are people that sit

in, go to market teams.

234

And then there's these enablement index

cards that are labeled enablement.

235

There's quite a few people.

236

That help sales people sell that

leaders would consider quote unquote

237

sales enablement in that definition.

238

So that's the upside of that we

envisioned for enablement was to

239

orchestrate all those resources.

240

But I think what's happening is

the org chart is getting in the

241

way and our kind of our siloed

thinking of who reports into who and.

242

And all that, and it creates

this redundancy, right?

243

That's why you're seeing so many layoffs.

244

Erich Starrett: So really, Brian,

we've covered off on position

245

one from that founding meeting.

246

Enablement is a strategic approach

with different flavors aligned to

247

eliminating the friction in each

of those parts of the system.

248

Position two is to me what you just

described to accomplish the sales

249

enablement needs to be chartered

and run as a cross functional

250

business within a business.

251

And what that means to me, and I'd

love to hear your take and again,

252

this, is there a remedy, right?

253

Is there a path forward for sales

enablement, revenue enablement,

254

and we'll get to that in a minute.

255

As a profession, It might it be to

look at it as exactly that a cross

256

functional business within a business.

257

Where not necessarily everyone has a

sales enablement title and definitely

258

doesn't directly report but might

dotted line and maybe it's to a CRO

259

that has both marketing and sales.

260

I'm seeing more and more of that.

261

And getting some traction talking to CROs

who are like, yeah, I love enablement.

262

And my team is in enablement

whether they have a label or not.

263

What's your reaction to that?

264

Is that in line with kind of your

thoughts and where you were headed?

265

Brian Lambert: As a new digital economy

function, the silos should be reorganized.

266

By different types of silos

and we should be thinking

267

about the value we're creating.

268

Let's not run around and

espouse massive reorganizations.

269

Need to happen.

270

If you move beyond that and

say where is the value created?

271

How do we do this?

272

There's definitely room to

work cross functionally.

273

And absolutely, we should be doing that.

274

And there's a lot of leadership

in that when you do that.

275

And there's a lot of

influence that you can wield.

276

It's just, do you have the logic?

277

Do you have the structure?

278

Do you have the discipline?

279

Do you have the presence?

280

Do you have the, Sheevaun would

say, the gravitas to do that?

281

And that's where I think

things could be a lot better.

282

And I think, for example,

what I've done is.

283

I put a lot back out to

the community, right?

284

Very few people have actually engaged

me on the things that I've put out.

285

I know you have, and we built the whole

Orchestrate sales site, but if you

286

look at The product market fit, so to

speak of this we don't have it, right?

287

So this, in other words, the

things that we're talking about on

288

this podcast are not mainstream.

289

We are, we don't have the mass mindshare.

290

Now we have other groups like Sales

Enablement Collective which have

291

better product market fit, which is

around more tactics and things like that.

292

So there, there is a whole

MBA around orchestration and

293

a whole MBA around enablement.

294

And, if you look at that as course

material and a profession who's going

295

to participate in that and want to

spend the time, that investment.

296

And that's where I've always.

297

Had in the back of my mind that there's

a lot of upside and a lot of possibility.

298

But, over the last, 20 years or so it's

been a tough pill to swallow that, that

299

folks don't necessarily want to do that.

300

They don't know what they don't know.

301

They're not curious.

302

They don't want to.

303

If they are curious, it's, it creates

a lot of friction for them and

304

others internally to get outside of

their traditional siloed swim lanes.

305

These are all things that I've gone

through and I know it's not comfortable.

306

Erich Starrett: yeah, Brian.

307

You know what?

308

I love talking with marketing hat

Brian through the lens of message.

309

Now that's where you're sitting

in your world view because.

310

When I hear you say, Hey, Erich,

there's not a product market fit

311

necessarily for orchestration.

312

There might be a 1 percent if you're

lucky right out there that truly want

313

to embrace that and get that MBA.

314

And the reason why maybe some of

these more tactical approaches

315

out there are working Is that's

more what the market's hungry for.

316

Is me the things that I can do to

be relevant to maintain the job

317

Luckily, I think where those two

things meet is what you were alluding

318

to earlier help me Show my value,

help me show my impact as a function.

319

And I would argue that's the one

place where we have some traction.

320

And I do see a future.

321

The more that we're able

to get that foundational.

322

Here are the metrics.

323

Here's here is the foundational

charter that includes alignment with

324

executive objectives that are all, if

you're doing it right, metrics driven

325

where you can see that value and

impact and then elevate and hopefully

326

become even more cross functional

even if you have to start at talent.

327

Brian Lambert: that's right.

328

Absolutely.

329

And there's a way to do that.

330

It's a bit uncomfortable admittedly,

because it's outside of traditional roles.

331

It's outside of what

everybody else is saying.

332

And that's where you have to have.

333

This forward lean and you have to, think

a little bit differently around what is

334

your value and then more importantly who

are you helping and who are you serving?

335

And are you trying to be comfortable

and do you view your job as, the nine

336

to five or when it comes to serving

salespeople, is it really about.

337

What the organization is telling

you they want, or is it really

338

trying to find a way to get the

organization, what it really needs?

339

And that's two different things.

340

That's sales, right?

341

There's a difference between what people

say they want and what they really need.

342

And that's where I scratched my head.

343

Enablers, which I'm I chuckled that word.

344

Hey, I'm enabler.

345

And I'm like, okay, what are you enabling?

346

And I get back to most sales

enablers are not in the numbers.

347

They couldn't tell you what the

pipeline activity was and all that.

348

They're not able to get into and

view the same day-to-Day reports

349

that managers are, some of them

don't even have access in Salesforce.

350

And then you get to we're gonna,

we're gonna actually, we need to

351

get outside of our comfort zone.

352

We need the business to

do things differently.

353

That's called selling.

354

That's sales skills.

355

That's literally selling.

356

That's what salespeople do.

357

So if you're feeling, boxed

in, or you feel like you don't

358

have what you need, go sell it.

359

what salespeople do.

360

That's how innovation happens.

361

That's how evolution happens.

362

And, that's where I encourage folks

to really step into and try to make

363

things happen and be a salesperson.

364

Get, closer and actually

have you done sales training?

365

Have you taken sales training?

366

Have you actually tried to pitch

the solutions at your company?

367

Have you tried cold calling and

getting a meeting with somebody?

368

A lot of sales enablers haven't done that.

369

They would rather, unfortunately, they

would rather should on people, you

370

should do this, you should do that.

371

And we're over here and let's track

your adoption of things and let's

372

track how many things you went to.

373

So we can wield that power and feel

good that we got people to show up.

374

And, meanwhile, they

miss quota, get fired.

375

And, we're wondering why we're.

376

You know what we're going to be eating for

dinner at sales kickoff when we show up.

377

There's this disconnect between

reality and what the role

378

could be and should be to me.

379

And reconciliation, I think

everybody has to do that.

380

That's something that

I've certainly had to do.

381

Erich Starrett: We're pretty

deep into the orchestration

382

thing, which is a rarity for me.

383

So I'm going to go ahead

and go and click deeper.

384

And with you and Scott and the concept

of this commercial orchestrator.

385

That is truly orchestrating a

cross functional business than

386

a business to in my mind, put

a bow around this whole thing.

387

I'll just throw out a what if, and I'd

love to hear where it lands with you.

388

What if.

389

Sales enablement was modeling what good

looks like in how they, interact with

390

the C suite are able to have the gravitas

to get that seat at the table in order

391

to think in cross functional alignment.

392

And by the way, in doing all

of that through the lens of how

393

do I empower my customer facing

frontline to be able to do the same.

394

If I am modeling internally, Hey,

I've been able to, I have a seat with

395

our CRO CIO with even the procurement

internally, to learn from what,

396

and that's one of the things that

Christopher Kingman was talking about,

397

he's Erich, I spent some time internally.

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Getting the seats at our own table to

better understand how we do things as

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a company, at TransUnion in his case,

so that I can turn around and help my

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enablement team enable our folks how to

speak to those folks, and I'm modeling

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it, and it's like a three for one.

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To me, Brian, that's the spirit of

orchestration, and as the co founder,

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I'd love to hear through your lens

whether or not That, what you were

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thinking, when you and Scott the ones

that came up with this and Scott, I

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know did a ton of deep and wide research

that I still have yet to tap into.

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So what is orchestration to you

and am I on to something there?

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Brian Lambert: Yeah, absolutely.

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I believe that orchestration is, and being

an orchestrator, it's in the continuum

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of evolving to a digital economy.

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Businesses are moving from siloed

organizations to eventually some sort of,

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interconnected web Of an ecosystem, right?

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So , if you step way out and say,

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and that's the industrial revolution.

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Technically, we're in the fourth wave

of that, which eventually will become

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the first wave of this idea of being

a digital economy and a digital era.

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And that's all happened in our

lifetimes, it's been exponentially

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fast you and I are in the age of

we didn't even have iPhones growing

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up and our phones were on the wall.

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Erich Starrett: With a chord!

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Brian Lambert: with a cord!

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So the exponential speed of that.

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And if you look at.

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Why and I know I'm going to get a

little, historical, a little zen,

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but anytime that there's massive

advancements like that there's upheaval.

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So you end up in the space of

social unrest, civil unrest,

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this happened in every age.

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It's a repeatable pattern.

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What we're going through.

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And when you start looking at the

repeatable patterns, you're going to

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see, businesses having to, their laws

are not keeping up with what's happening.

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That's why, back in the industrial

revolution, they put kids in factories.

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Oops, that's a bad idea, right?

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The laws were not caught up

with factories back then.

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So that's happening now.

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So the reason why I'm bringing that up

is, If you look around at what we're

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so attached to, whether it's the school

systems or the business, systems those,

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the elements are not, capitalism, the

elements are like the idea of how you

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organize an entity for example, silos.

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So let's just pick on silos are

from the industrial revolution.

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I think everybody knows that, but,

why is it so hard to get rid of them?

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It's because everything is built around

them and you can't even function from

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a finance perspective to a product

launch perspective, et cetera.

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But if you look at it, we

really don't need them.

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We're all in a hyper

connected digital world

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The work from home thing, et cetera.

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where technically silos shouldn't matter.

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Should they?

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But when you look at fast forward there,

there needs to be eventually a way

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in which we don't have silos and they

don't become the organizing structure.

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Silos are impeding our

ability to communicate value.

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They're impeding our

ability to be productive.

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They're impeding our ability to actually

have a coherent conversation internally.

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There's a massive challenge with silos

that everybody looks the other way

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on because it's part of the the norm.

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So that's why orchestrators

are so darn important,.

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When you remove the siloed fabric of

a company, they become a new glue that

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brings people together to achieve, the

mission to achieve outcomes and objectives

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to be a catalyst and to make things happen

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So it's more about the team

that gets created on the fly

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than it is about where you sit.

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That's why it's valuable and

critical for companies to figure

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out how to do this and orchestrators

are the first through the wall.

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Erich Starrett: Orchestration is

dead, long live orchestration.

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And here's where I'm going with that.

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What if, and this is total

blasphemy enablement is not the

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right place for orchestration.

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What if it is?

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The CRO role, like as a, for instance,

where what I'm seeing again, a lot of is.

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Hey, I want to be a CRO through

the lens of now I've got sales

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and marketing reporting into me.

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I can help them play nice.

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I can align everything.

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I can drive the metrics.

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I'm leaning more maybe rev ops

than sales ops and how I'm got

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a partner in those metrics.

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Is orchestration maybe where

enablement moves into a CRO,

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CMO, CSO, strategy, officer?

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Brian Lambert: Yeah, I think

it's closer to there today.

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Sales enablement has been

recast as the training.

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Function and the event planners,

if you will of the sales org.

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So I don't see it suddenly.

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Like you said at the beginning,

there's 6 million pages right now.

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When you hit it what those are about

is going to largely be training

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and "shoulding" on salespeople

and telling them what to do.

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And and it's going to be about

sales kickoffs and new hire

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training and onboarding, et cetera,.

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Erich Starrett: Which is important.

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It's just not all of it.

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Brian Lambert: And it is, I'm not

going to say it's not important.

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I would just question how valuable it is

to, to the company and to the people in it

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again, I have a very visceral reaction

because I've seen salespeople get

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fired from having, enablement teams.

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So if you have an enablement team,

then why do sales people get fired?

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And then where's the accountability . But

I could also say that from marketing, I

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could say that from messaging enablement,

I could say that for sales operations.

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So what I'm saying is not, I'm not

just picking on sales enablement.

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To me it's everybody that

says they try to help sales.

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And that's why I think the org charts in

the way., we have to figure out how to be

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orchestrators and be more strategic and

figure out how to provide services and

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less about where we sit on the org chart.

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So I think that's definitely

a, path to, to more value.

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And so there's, a place for orchestration

to step up, whether you're from

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the enablement lens, a CRO, a CMO.

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It is a gap.

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It is a strategic gap that

can be filled and can thrive.