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Hi, I'm Adrienne in suburban Chicagoland and you're listening to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast with Jen Lumanlan. Do you know that Jen's book will be published in August 2023. It's about making parenting easier and helping us to address some pretty big social challenges at the same time. If you'd like to be notified when Jen comes to a town near you for a book reading, and maybe even bring her to your town for a workshop about the tools in the book, you can do that by visiting YourParentingMojo.com/book. I'm looking forward to seeing her when she comes to Chicago.

Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. Today we are here with special guest Virginia Mendez who is a mother of two and co-founder of TheFeministShop.com. Virginia is the author of two books for children on gender and consent and has spoken to over 2000 schoolchildren promoting critical thinking and inviting them to understand what is behind their already formed ideas about some things being for boys, and other things being for girls. Her latest book is called Childhood Unlimited: Parenting Beyond The Gender Bias. And in it she shares her ideas, short interviews with experts in the field of gender differences and similarities; and super practical things parents can do to help break down gender stereotypes. Welcome, Virginia. It's great to have you here.

Thanks for having me. I'm very excited.

All right, so let's get everybody on the same page. Before we start, can you begin by telling us what is sex? And what is gender?

Yes, I think it's a great point to start, because when we're having all these conversations, a lot of people get both of them confused. And and we need to be very clear and separate them. So on one hand, we have sex, which describe the biological aspect and traits, and we normally think about it in a very binary way. So there's male and there's female. But even scientists agree that, that that's not the case. So we have people that are intersex, their calculate that is around 1.7%, which is more or less the same as red hair. I live in Ireland, so I can guarantee that there's red hair, people's definitely must be intersex people as well.

In the other hand, we have gender and gender is a personality identity and it's a social construct. And because it's a social construct, and obviously cannot be binary, because it will adapt to the society under different needs. And the way I like to think about it, and the way I've always impacted me more when I've been hearing to trans people is that gender is their home. That's the place where they feel like their true self. That's why the fact that we keep trying to box it and to narrow it. It's a bit under natura, because it should be about, you know, one way I can express myself in a way that is more true to my my real identity.

Okay, and so you use the word intersex there, and I just want to sort of make sure that we're clear for folks who are hearing that for the first time, the way I understand it is that there are genitalia that we traditionally think of as male genitalia, their genitalia that we traditionally think of as female genitalia. And there is an enormous variation continuum between those two things, right. Is that right? Well,

it's the fact that whenever we think about female or male, we tend to think about vulva or penis, and we have to think that there's any more other things. So there is that they've gone on to the chromosomes, the gene expression, the hormone levels, the brain structures, their secondary sex characteristic. So the way they interact with each other is not always as crystal clear. As, you know, everything aligns in a way that makes me say that this person is just purely female. So there is that aspect there is that a spectrum in which people have different variations? And what I have in my book, and it was given by Kate Hildred, which is a trans expert, and they say that there are at least 16 different natural variations. So again, not even intersex is very clear. It's not one thing, it's a lot of different things.

Yeah, awesome. Okay, cool. Thanks for that clarification. So, so when children are young, what differences are there between what we think of as boys' brains and what we think of as girls' brains?

Well, the reality is that there's not that much difference. I mean, there are a lot of differences between people but but not necessarily because the fact that there are boys and there's girls. So we have these understanding that boys and girls are very different, almost species, but there is there is a self-fulfilling prophecy within it. So if we think about the neuroplasticity, we think about things that we like ourselves, things that I always think about miso soup, the first time you try it, you're like, "No, thank you," and how you know you never loved it and you're like, "God, I love it. How can I live without this?" Or other things that are cultural, like I've seen it myself a lot of things that has impacted my taste, and my personality. I'm a Spanish we tend to be very loud. Again, because of the climate, we tend to live more outdoors versus females, there's a lot of things that shape who we are. And we kind of are okay to understand that except for some reason, when we talk about gender, when we talk about gender, we kind of think that boys are born like dinosaurs; girls are born like in unicorn sisters, what it is, is nature.

So that is a little bit the message like, okay, let's understand that let's agree that even if it's not a complete blank canvas blank canvas, because not two Spanish people are also the same. We all come with our pre loaded genetic, and we're everything. The fact that we are boys and our girls, that doesn't fight, it doesn't define us much. And there's a lot of things that we pour into those boxes and into those expectations that shape our brains that make those big difference at the end. Dr. Gina Rippon, which I love, she's a neuro neuroscientist, and she says specific, she is a specialist in neuro image. So she's done a lot of experiments and boys and girls, men and women, and she talks a lot about neuro trash, and how whenever we see these data about they're so different brains here and there, whenever you you know, understand that, that that they're not that different. But also those experiments tend to be done with adults. So by that time, those difference tend to be their response to something like they don't necessarily have to be the cause, but maybe is the consequence of something that has happened before, which is an invitation to, to feel freer if you feel you know, more, more willing to open and limit kids in that way. Like if we ran away from the idea of brains, our boys are and girls are.

Yeah, and so I wonder if we can talk through some of the specific examples that you give in your book, right? I mean, you you give the idea that a parent might say, "Well, I haven't done anything, my daughter just likes pink." And a fascinating one that I found was parents are two and a half times more likely to Google is my son gifted than is my daughter gifted. So this I mean, this is starting super early. Right? So can you can you walk us through how these things stack up as as our children go through their lives?

Yeah. And what you were saying about the Google thing, And the counter, the counter research is like, parents tend to research more, is my daughter fat, from whenever they're very early, which is absolutely crazy. Yeah, I get a lot of that my daughter, and I haven't done anything, this just has happened. I think the part that we forget is that a all of us hold those wires. I mean, there is a huge element of unlearning. And also, unless you're paying a lot of attention, we see things as normal. And if we see them as normal, we don't do anything to correct them. I think I said this in the book as well that in Spain with pierced ears of the girls, and I never thought anything about it. It was very normal. I didn't care. And then my husband said like, "You think it's very weird." And I was like, "Absolutely not. It's normal. Nothing happened to me." And he was like, "Virginia, I needed to think this again. They pierce babies, because they look cuter, because they're girls," and never, oh my god, "We're barbarians. Like what is this?" And I was really shocked, because I never thought of it.

So I think that's what happened with a lot of the things like there's so normalized, we don't see them. We're just like, that's just what it is. That's what would we do. And also, we underestimate the power of the society as a whole, you know, the books that our kids read, or we read the songs, the language, I mean, there's so many aspects that send in a very similar message that we feel like, that's just normality. And if we have offered once our girl, you know, a track, we think like, my job here was done. I don't know how she can see like, when I'm telling these as a mother of a girl who loves being girls, especially from three to seven, they got to a phase because it's so insanely marketed them that it's very difficult to be. And also it's not about demonizing girly things, it's about just opening the things, but I just don't think we see unless you point at the things And do like look at these and look at these and look at this. We just go through it. Just thinking it's just normal.

Yeah. And okay, so on the idea of pink right, I read somewhere that I think it was in 1920s 1930s Pink was a boys' color. I mean, how this is how arbitrary it is right? But it can be a boys color. And then 50 or so years later, it becomes a girl's killer, because somebody some marketing company somewhere decided to make this shift.

And if you think about it, the the the idea that they had about it was that red was very passionate and very kind of water-related. So by putting it a little bit pink was like the boys version, like the lighter version of that. And even like the Kings, if you look at old pictures of canes, they tend to be wearing reds and pinks and those kinds of colors, very warm colors. And if you look at pictures of the Virgin Mary through history in art, they tend to be in blue, which looks more pure and dainty. And so it was just one of the things that you know, suddenly go change Godwin fours I think there was a lot of Kennedy and and even then the whenever they dressed whenever they dress Rosie the Riveter is blue. And they they wanted the women back. They wanted to separate that idea of women's worker from women as back to the domestic life. There was this Jackie Kennedy dressed in pink and Marilyn Monroe dressed in pink. There were a lot of very feminine figures in pink and Annie got much more data. But again, it's not natural. It's not that not girls are not really attached to pink. It's just it's just a color.

Yeah. Wow. That's fascinating. Thanks for digging into that a little bit. And so so let's talk about some of the other ways that this happens, right? Because I mean, this is this is surrounding us. And so you, you talk a lot about children's books in your book, Childhood Unlimited. We recently finished reading the entire 22 book series of Red Wall. Yes, it was. I mean, they're they're a little repetitive, I have to say I was ready for it to be done about 10 books before it was actually done. The vast majority of the heroes are males, especially in the early books, I think they probably got some feedback at some point saying where are the girls because suddenly, they start introducing a few of them. The rats and the weasels are always the bad characters, and they are virtually always male. The only female bad characters are the sly foxes. And I mean, the the female characters, but the good ones are always described as pretty. And my favorite example was when there were two characters, a boy and a girl character who were in the dark hole of a ship, right, they can't see a thing. And the female character is described as pretty.

I mean, they're gonna there's this heteronormativity presumed that if you if there's a girl character shows up where we start guessing, okay, he or she going to be paired off with by the end of the book. It just blew my mind. And so we were, we were talked through this stuff every time it showed up. And it got to the point where my daughter and I would just kind of look at each other. Yep, there it is, again. And every time the word pretty came up, she had me insert the phrase, definitely not before it. So the definitely not pretty good. So so that's how I've seen it show up. But I am curious about how you see it show up because you read a lot more children's books than I do. I think.

Well, it's very interesting. There was a debate not that long ago in in UK, I don't know if it got to America as well, because it was about Roald Dahl. And the whole rewriting. So I was gonna, I talked about the possibility of using those things as conversation starters. So that's exactly what you did. And that's what I can no longer, to not, we cannot rewrite all the literature. It's done. I mean, obviously, I buy more new books than old books, because they're more aligned with who I am. But when I get books given or when my kids choose books that I'm like, we talk about it. But everything that you say that are normativity in the books is is insane. It's very expected even in the way whenever we talk about kids whenever you have a girlfriend, or is this your boyfriend, I'm like, and yeah, it's that idea of the pretty, who talks the more, even who occupies more space in the illustrations, the postures, like once you start digging in about all the little messages, it's very pervasive is everywhere.

And yeah, it's just what domains is literally all the things that you say the way that girls tend to be, or women tend to be errors. So whenever they're representing, they tend to be a teacher or a mother or a figure that is the best friend that really cares about everybody like kindness and caring for others, And being pretty are to things. And then the role models like they're not they're, you know, they're not the messy one or, or the one that is clumsy or anything, they have to be always proper. So it's all the things the way they express their, their feelings in the books as well. So I think whenever, like it's a very interesting experiment. Like if you go to kids books, And you you reverse the genders and use a sheet to he and he, there's things that you suddenly start feeling very uncomfortable with and you're like, oh, I wonder why I feel uncomfortable or things that you didn't realize, because again, there were normal Saturday, they're very obvious. They're like, oh, yeah, why are we keep saying that this man is very handsome all the time. Like who cares? Or you miss things in other characters? So yeah, that's an experiment that I highly recommend. Even when you're buying something like a screen quickly, screen it and change it and be like, is it awkward, but I feel uncomfortable? I get it from there.

Yeah. And so I was thinking about what how does this happen? Right. And you mentioned in your book that your first book for children featured white characers, because that's what you knew. And then someone came up to you and said something, something like, you know, I love the work. And I hope one day I can see people who looked like my kids. And I imagine that the same process must happen for gendered representation so that it's just what people expect to see. Because it's so baked into so many of the books that are around already, do you see it in the same way,

It's just a blind spots. I generally don't think there's badness, it's just that people just just write about the things that they know, or the way they understand the world. And because we understand the world in a very sexist way, we just perpetuate it in a way. And again, it's not calling a girl dirty.

You can say that again, if you want.

Yeah, whenever we call a character, really, we're doing it in a way that we're we're praising him for what we think is their higher currency. You know, we're saying like, oh, girls really care about being pretty, how important is for our girl to be pretty, and want to say, so we're saying as a positive thing, the way when when people stopped my daughter in the street, And they say, "Oh, you're so pretty." I know, they're not trying to undermine her. They're making a stronger, I believe that she's starting to hold. So it's the same with the books. It's more like it's lack of awareness. I remember whenever my friend told me that, and I just, it just makes so much sense. And I was, and also the first instinct is almost offensiveness as well. But there are family, and they are white, and that's what you know, and I remember talking about about it with my, with my dad. And it was like, well, it makes more sense, because more people in Spain, or in England, where you leave are white. So it would make sense, the same way that a lot of people will say, but it makes more sense that girls are representing doing those things, because more girls look like doing those things. But it's like, yeah, but that's not the that's not the point, the point is like, we need to have a more diverse and more inclusive representation.

So um, we need to change the narrative of what is perceived as, "normal" versus what is real and create and represent a world and give the kids a world in which everybody fits. So so yeah, it was a big learning. And obviously, I change it. In my second book, I'll introduce new characters and a girl that is Asian or, that is mixed race. And I think, and I'm learning again, and I'll read the book again, and somebody will spot something or I learn more, and I'll be like, Oh, the next time I do it better, because that's how we grow. We grow by leaps, talents, and by owning our mistakes and, and just use them as conversation starters of what's next. So I think that's the part that we can do with our kids as well. Just saying, like, we used to do that, because that's what we believe, but we know better don't wait, like, have we know, do we know people like that? And those conversations are golden, because that's when they really learn.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And so I just want to point to the book as having a list of recommended books for next week, who needs some more guidance on ones to get started to disrupt the patterns of some of the things you may have been reading.

So um, so let's go into movies. Right, so we have we have Frozen now. We even have a black Little Mermaid now. That's brand new as of the time of this recording. Yeah. So are things getting better for gender in the movies?

Yes, definitely. Yes. But also I found very interesting that you said and Frozen, which is the big the big example that everybody gives you as like, we've made it a Disney is feminist. And I was whenever I was reading the book, And I was writing, reading about it, and remember the exact percentage you can probably look at it but the percentage of people that talk it's extremely severely male, something like almost 60% of the talking are men and if you think about Frozen, and I guess everybody here has probably watched it. Once you take away Anna and Elsa, everybody else, it's mainly a male character like Sven and Olaf and Christoph I was like I forget the name, but even the Augur you know the representation whenever Christopher arrives, the first thing that they Augur says is like, give me your clothes. I'm gonna wash them. That's the Augur mother and the father is that wise, bigger, you know, whenever they're all sitting in the table to discuss what they're gonna do with Arendelle, all men, Where are the women? You know, like it's extremely an outdated film. It's just that it happens to have two female main characters. And there it's not only about romantic love, I like Frozen, but I don't think it's the feminist hero that we need. I think more Anna is an excellent it's a probably much more feminist example as in there is no really romantic thing. The grandmother is a big figure. You know, it's more nature-based. I think we these may have done other films that are definitely in the right direction. And in general, I think that the TV shows and all those kinds of things, they're listening to parents because we are voting every time we go to certain films every time we stop watching something and what's something else? And at the end of the day, are they following the money? So I do think we are going in the right direction. I also think that we have so much work to do. Sometimes I watch things and I'm like, no, no, don't do that. So yeah, I think it's still a long way to go. But yeah, celebrating all the victories, because they're definitely some.

Yeah. And I mean, also thinking about the kinds of the physical presentation of the bodies of the girls who are in these movies, right? I mean, there is one right way to be in a body, if you're a girl.

And it's clearly impossible to attain because otherwise, what would be the fun if we could not aspire to be something impossible? What would be the fun? Yeah, again, on the there was, I was watching something the other day about their representation of Gnosis between the good characters and the bad characters, or, as well, the weights, like a lot of bad characters are fat. And they have big noses, the good characters tend to be thin, and really pointy, cute noise noses. So all those things, the that it's, again, that makes between the White Supremacy, the Patrick here that can be released, like all those things, like mix together And serve to the kids in a very palatable way. And with a lovely, very catchy song. You know, it's like that, that can be bad, because I've been singing it for hours. But we, we have a lot to unpack a steel. And, and it almost feels like it has to be always a trade off, like you cannot be both. So if you're gonna have, let's say, a Black mermaid, she has to be thin and absolutely gorgeous. We never, you know, like don't, or if you're gonna have a fat character then has to be extremely feminine and kind A\and super caring, and selfless, and white. Like we it's almost like you're allowed one strike, and even that people will go after you. But that's, that's what you get. You get one everything else has to be, you know, following the rules of the boxes.

Yeah, yeah. And as you're saying that I'm also thinking about the I mean, even I don't know if this is more insidious, but maybe more hidden ways that some of this stuff shows up. Just last night, we were reading the kids' book Puppy, which is about mice. And you know, they're living together. The main character is a girl is Puppy. And she and her dad have to go and visit the owl to ask permission for half of their family to go and move to another place because there's too many of them. And you know, the father is this you know, person-in-charge. He wears a thimble to show how dominant he is. And nobody wants to listen to him, but he, you know, wants to assert his authority. And then puppy gets chosen to go and visit the owl with him. And the mother character is like, okay, Puppy, now, just don't do anything that's going to upset your father. And I'm like, this is patriarchy, right? This is this is the mother figure passing on the patriarchal message of it is not okay for you to exert your opinion. To say that I don't want to do this, you have to make sure to placate the feelings of your the delicate feelings of you're all seeing all knowing all powerful father. And so yeah, we had to pause a little bit for the whole conversation.

Sorry. Yeah, sometimes it's like you're in something like Sorry, we're gonna have my kids have sometimes just read the book. Yeah, we'll talk about this later. Okay. Later, like, alright, teach things on the go, because I still read the books to my kids, because they're very small. Yeah. Because I can't sometimes I'm like, I'm not. We're not doing this. Yeah, let's do that. It's, it's those small things that we don't see. And then when we see them, they're massive. We're like, how can these have gone through a publisher, an illustrator, an editor and nobody saw it. Sometimes that's, that's what I'm, I wonder, like how, especially in films, like, how many people have seen this script, and nobody at some point said like, are we gonna say that in 2023? Really? So yeah, I think that's the part that it's far to normalize. And we need to do the work of the just the light in the light.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so let's move on to talk a bit about the language that we use. And I have a couple of thoughts on this. And the first thing is that Carys goes to, my daughter goes to an art school program. And there are several teachers there who are gender non-binary, And they actively teach the children to share their pronouns on a regular basis, and to not assume somebody's pronouns by their presentation. And so Carys will now refer to any person that she has met who has not told her their pronouns as "they" or she will just repeat their name instead of saying "his" or "her" or "their." And so we actually do this as well now because as she corrects us. And so we started doing it as well. And at that point, it dawned on me how many books and movies assume that we know the gender of the person without any indication other than the fact that they have long eyelashes.

And I think it's very rare. My kids do it sometimes. And I find my brain sometimes we're like, oh, which person, And I love that they do it. And I went, I tried to be very intentional when I say it, especially with with things or with animals or things like that. But when they say it, I find like, oh, how interesting that I'm uncomfortable asking or not that I'm uncomfortable, but that I feel like there's that there's information missing, because our brain is always looking for those cues. So it's like, how could I know who this person is if I don't know this one thing?

Yeah, it was super uncomfortable for me this at first, I have to say, I agree with you. And it has become much more comfortable every time.

And I think that's in that down comfort in which we learned them comforting, which is like, Oh, wow, it's fascinating that I don't care if these. So if Eric says, Mom, I was talking with a person today. And they said, and I'm like, no, I never ask because I don't want to make a deal of it. But I'm like a person? Who is this person? This person, but I don't care if that person is tall or short. I, you know, like the part that my brain is telling me like we are lacking information here is the gender, which is again, it shows how much we're cluttered and how much we are defined, and how much we need to open the spectrum. Because more and more, and it's not because it's trendy it's not because it's TikTok, but more and more people are comfortable saying like, "Look, that's not who I am." And more people are finding the language, and the space and the permission to tap into their non-binary existence and identity in a freer way. So we are going there.

So the sooner we train our brains, and the sooner we we do what they our kids are learning to do in a much more in a younger age, the better but it is it is amazing that she does already. I think it's it's brilliant. And and also that idea of non-binary people don't know you androgynous. You know, it can be like a person that looks very feminine and feels like, you know, I am non-binary. And I think that's the part that for all of us that maybe grow up in a very binary society. That's the part that is like, I don't understand it. And I get a lot of the people when I talk about these things, a lot of people are like, I just don't understand that. Like, if they're non binary, why are they dressed like that? Or why are they showing up like that? It's like, oh, but it's like the you don't need to understand that. You know, like, that's the fun part. Like the great part is like, it doesn't matter, you understand, you just have to respect it. You just have to, you know, that's all they're asking. And then if you want to understand it and want to read more about it amazing, but, but nobody's even going that far yet. I don't think anybody's even asking for full understanding of everything. It's more about, you know, thar's full support full acceptance, and let them lead the conversation on the journey. I'm really excited about our kids and our generation growing in that while all these is exploding, And it's happened And I think it's, it's amazing, And it's invaluable for them.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I think that we we are probably still outliers here. Even in liberal California. I don't see a lot of families outside of this circle doing it. But I'm hoping that it's going to become more common. And yeah, I mean, contrasting that with the way I grew up, right. I mean, when I was in primary school, I won a prize for growing the tallest sunflower, except that I won one of two prizes for growing the tallest sunflower because I won the girls prize. And somebody else won the boys price. I mean, girls prize at a boys prize for growing the tallest sunflower.

We had a sports day today. Actually my kids school and they split them in boys and girls. They are P1 and P2. We my husband and I out of curiosity, we chronometer the difference between between them and it was like you're separating kids for the sake of one second. Between the girls' groups and the boys' groups. And again, like just get them to raise and then split them and be like the 10 fasters he our group A and less fast, you know, and again, how much easier because there are kids non-binary in that school out of a statistics. Some kids in that schools are being remembered and put constantly where they feel like it's real. It's not my size. I don't feel like I fit here And we are constantly putting them in those two things in things that as you said are completely unnecessarily what what is the difference that it makes growing flower as a girl or boy just completely irrelevant. So yeah, hopefully that's hopefully that's where we're going in which those categories starting to blur a little bit.

Yeah, yeah. And that maybe some of the places where we see differences in these kinds of things, right where girls speak earlier than boys, but really not very much. And maybe a lot of it is around how we talk to girls and the ways that we encourage them to play. And that if we were to treat children more evenly, then perhaps those differences wouldn't be as large anyway.

Yeah. And I think that's, that's key whenever people tell you like, but look and I do that a lot, because they're different. Like, we were in a Pina Colada in a party, and it was up in Jada, and the girls were Kaden it like, and the boys were like, hating it. And all the mothers were like, you go, you know, like, and that's it, end of the conversation. And I was like, no, no, no, no, I was like, how is this not a consequence? Like, what shows that your kids watch? You know, how much time outdoors you give to your kids? How many rockets that your son has? And what about your daughter, And what kind of toys you give her And, And the role models that they have around them. And whenever they turn on TV, And we're sporting people, so in sports, like, what what I'm seeing is something that has happened to those kids And to those boys and to those girls, I'm not seeing the evidence that on that said end of the debate, they are natural is like, oh, that shows already from how early those difference and start playing an effect. They start showing up?

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so one of the things that I loved most about your book, there were a lot of cool things in it. One of the things I liked the most about it, were the why it matters stories. And you have three of those. Can you maybe just briefly tell us a story arc of why it matters for Jane Doe.

Yeah. So the way I I wrote the book I started probably more scientific on is this is like laying out some basis, and then go in deeper And some of the aspects, but I don't think any of that matters if we don't understand why it matters. As in okay, well, so, so what I was trying to do with those stories, just follow the story of any girl that is, is part of those, you know, like if we put all that information together, because one of the things that I am more accused of is whenever it's just a toy, Virginia, it's just a toy; it's just the book, you know, like, it's just, it's just that one thing, but I was like, if it was just that one thing, I wouldn't care. But it's never just that one thing, right? So when I wrote those stories about Jane Doe And John Doe and Joe Doe, I was trying to articulate it. So so I imagine this Jane Doe, leaving the hospital, and again, with a big, you know, band in her head and just very flowery, and everybody telling her how beautiful it is. And, and I remember the cards that I received when my daughter was born, and it was all pink and all like unicorns, and the clothes, they were dressing. So I just follow that little girl about all the things that she's exposed to. So the songs that they're singing to her, and what are we telling the songs, which are the roles model that she's been around, like, she has many more teachers, her mother is the most normal present figure, whenever she goes to the park, their show their mothers, and how she starts seeing herself in carrier figures. And if you ask little girls, what they want to do, they tend to be mothers and teachers, or that or you know, it has to be something very caring, because that's what they're seeing around.

And again, the toys that she's given and how the people talk to her mom, we tell them be careful all the time. And don't play with the boys that can be a little bit rough. And how so basically, is that idea of seen develop things like whenever you put together and you're like, oh, yeah, well, I see that I see how all these carry narrative, all these, you're very beautiful narrative, how will those things start building up? Because then suddenly, it's not just that one song, like, that's long, and the books and the toys and the language, and then you go to school and what are we told, and then the way girls are pitted against each other. And you know, we don't like each other and how you have a very narrow space, you know, like either too loud or you're too shy, or you're too prude, or you're just lie like how we as women navigate that little, you know, little space in which we are acceptable before we are too much of something. And I think it's easier whenever you see, you know, baby, and you see that baby, let's say politically in your head grow rather than when you say it in yourself because you're like privates, okay, but whenever you put all the things together, it's like, oh, well, there's a lot there like we all have been through. And it's the story of all of us in a way or in another maybe that was not exactly you or you were more rough or whatever. But we all have all those things like all those representation, the way we're objectify the way we're interrupted The way we're reduced to things.

I'm very similar with boys like whenever I have a boy and a girl, and I always say that it's much more intuitive to raise girls than to raise boys. As in once you understand this, the intuitive part is like, yes, you know, like, go and be a pioneer, go on break moles, but we've avoided sometimes you'll have to be like, no, you know, like, listen, like we're talking a lot about consent. And like that, which is a topic that I'm very passionate about. And and sometimes Eric says things that are a bit manipulative to Nora, like Nora said no to something bad, Nora, I really want that. And I was like, Eric, you need to learn when somebody's saying no, she's obviously uncomfortable. And she doesn't want to hurt your feelings. But she's saying no, in every way she knows. So you need to learn to listen these No.

So I think, again, when we think about sex is we don't think about the way this whole society shaping our boys, and how much potential we've taken away from them. But again, if you put it all together, like, you know, you get the hospital and it's all fire trucks and predators and balls and and you know, and roar everything's loud and and you know, you fall "Come on, you're a big boy, but to the bike again," rather than just falling "Oh my god, are you okay? My baby." You know, this will toughen them up. And, and you know, on, we're more strict, and we allow things and we justify things that we wouldn't with girls. And we don't let them play with certain things, or we don't offer as in Eric had dresses, and he doesn't wear any dresses anymore, because he is not interested in. But whenever we get handmade Alexander stresses his size, "Do you want this?" And he said yes, for a while, and he was wearing a dress, like how many times we offer dresses to boys? We don't because we're like, Oh, that's too much, that's a step too much. We don't want them to be different.

So the lines of what it's acceptable for boys is still very narrow, because as long as they stepped into anything, family, and it's a downgrade. Then suddenly is like, whoa, I cannot do that to him. Like he's gonna be ridiculed. He's gonna be lesser of so again, that the story of white matters follows that kids and how that kid sees himself over represented. Like, if you turn the TV on, everybody looks like you. And again, my kid is white, but I you know, so even more, so even more like, okay, the world is white man, white boy saving the day in a lot of different things. And there's Harry Potter. And there's, you know, there's all those kids and how that entitlement comes from seeing yourself as the human neutral, because the world tells you that that's what it is. And then you lose perspective. And you lose that empathy with one the other are because the other students are like another reason. They're just like a niche. They're like a different area of your normality, your normal, everybody else is just a different part of it.

So again, like how we are not letting them explore their feelings, the way they build relationships is not as they are not allowed to ask for help. They're hyper sexualized, which again, is very unprotected, in terms of whenever they suffer from sexual assault, or the way they felt their mental health, they're not always ready for it. They have to be more reckless in France, they're studying the toxic masculinity is actually a danger for driving. Like, there's a lot of driving accidents that happen because of toxic, toxic masculinity and having to come across as relentless. Wearing, you know, seatbelts is gay. Being fast is masculine, you know, one being not being a scary is masculine, which makes you die younger, among other things, but like they are. So we're not helping them either.

We're not letting them have fulfilling, nurturing relationships, embracing parenting in the same way, or sexual relationships in the same way. And you can see, like, if you start getting all the little details that builds their existence, it's much easier to see it's like, oh, I can see how we got there. And it's not that I hate men, it's just that society is shaping them in a way that allows them to become people that that is not benefiting anyone. And again, even more so for non-binary people or trans people, like the world is already difficult to navigate. As a teenager, for example, and dating as a non binary people going to the doctor, like every time I see forms now is like, what do you do? What do you do whenever like, I'm not here, like you're you're forcing me to say I'm something I'm not. And you're forcing to you know, make these my whole personality and my whole life and these should not be my whole life. I just want to live my life as the non-binary person that I am. So yeah, I think the White matters and I hope that by then people were ready for a bit of a rant because now that I'm rational. Notice there with the random the beginning phase, like by hope you hopefully you know that I'm normal and rational. Let's go to the motional run. So yeah, I think I left that at the end.

Yes, you did. Oh my god. She's so passionate about this is so awesome. So I just want to pull a couple of threads through from from things that you said there. And I think the thing that showed up most for me when when you were talking about Jane Doe at the beginning, and how we are required to show up when these define parameters, right, you can't be too shy, because you have to make sure that you're carrying about everybody else. But you can't be too big or too loud or too much. That's, that's not okay. And so there's this this super narrow band of what is acceptable, and, and our culture essentially shames us into staying within that band. Because if you go outside of it, you know, I work with, with parents who are like, how do I get my kids to be more outgoing, if there are too, you know, on this on the shy side, or, I mean, there's so much shame around being too big too much. So. So that sort of happens, by itself without the parent even needing to do anything.

And then, of course, the same thing is happening for our boys as well, where they are shamed for doing anything that steps outside of that heteronormative framework. And I mean, we're constraining our ability to be whole people, essentially, by putting ourselves by allowing ourselves by living within a culture that says, these are the only ways of being there's a view, you're a boy, or you're a girl. And instead, you know, what, if I'm somewhere across all of this, and I can't explore that, I can't understand that, I can't express that, because that's not okay. And I'll be shamed for it. And that has such has had such profound implications for us parents who are listening to this. And it will, as well for our children, And the choices that we are making, right, every single thing that you walk through about how we talk to our children, the books, we're reading, the movies, that we're watching the the ways that we're exploring consent, each of those little things, adds up into this shamed little version of ourselves, or an expansive version of ourselves where we actually get to be who we really are. And that, to me is why this is important.

Yeah, and I think, I think that's exactly it. And that's why I'm awful like to sing titles. So whenever we were brainstorming about the title of the book, I was like, "Sorry, Come on, help me." Another book, trying to say the title. And yeah, and I loved like a friend of mine came with childhood unlimited. And I was like, yeah, that's it. Because that's what it is about for me. It's about how we can limit kids. Like at the moment, this society just puts them again, there's so many limitations. Nope. And in case of girls more so, and in case of girls, like the limitation, like there is really not a right way. You will almost know that you're always going to be too much of something. So you're like, you're just trying to balance like, which one? Is it going to be? You know, which price I'm willing to pay to be this part of me? I mean, how am I going to compensated, so I can say this thing. So that idea of a space in which we can be, you know, much freer and much more expansive, and just explore who we are, and how much potential and how much things we have in the table? And we're like, no, let's explore it all. Let's, let's see who we really are. Whenever we take people out of the boxes, And we just let them be. So yeah, I'm glad that come across.

Yes, absolutely. And so as we wrap up here, I am reminded of a conversation that I hosted with a listener a little while ago, and I made a promise coming out of that, that whenever I talk about White Supremacy on the show, that I wouldn't just give people information, but give them ideas about what to do, organized a little bit by where they are on their journey. And so I'd love to kind of take that promise and apply it here as well. And I'm wondering if you can help us to understand maybe if folks are new to this idea, and we're like, you know, non-binary. This is the first time I've heard this i I'm very, very, very new to a lot of these ideas. What are some of the things I can do with my children that are different and will help me to head down this path? Or if you were kind of nodding along like yes, yes, yes, I believe this already. And I think I'm doing a lot already, what's sort of a next step that those folks might be able to do?

So I think the first thing for me is awareness. I know that in my own journey, once I see things I cannot unsee and so it doesn't even come with a lot of work. You know, like once somebody told me about my book, I was like, Yep, so it I cannot unsee it. And it happens with a lot of things. Like I think whenever you learn is somebody tells you something he clicked it makes sense. Like yeah, you know, so hopefully, be open and be curious around you. So whenever that curiosity of like, okay, I'm gonna try that thing. Whenever I'm reading the book, or I'm gonna try the thing. I'm gonna try to watch one show and see how many things I spot or I'm gonna go to a shop to buy clothes and be like, how uncomfortable like, why do I feel like those clothes are sending?

So even if it's just be curious about one thing, what is that? I feel like, you know, especially whenever it's a very emotional answer, and I get a lot of people with very emotional answers like, I'm like, just be curious. Just Just go out on an exploration journey, just just to see how is this reinforce? Even if you still think that there is a natural aspect of it? How is this reinforced? And again, like, if and if you already believe this, well, you're probably on the same journey as me so I think we played by ear, and we listen to our kids, because kids are so wise. I mean, I learned so much, because they are naturally ahead in some of the things, because they don't have concepts that we have. So just keep having those conversations, and just see where their minds are going. And then and be open to talk to them. Like, why do you think that? Oh, that makes sense, or, oh, where'd that come from? So again, it's just, I'm a big fan of talking, especially like with everybody else, and kids, but like, kids are fascinating. and you are very easy to see, Oh, I wonder what this idea is coming from? Like, where is she getting that idea from? Or he's getting that idea. And there's loads of information about this whole, it's not new, but this this scary new thing of non-binary and trans and it is our responsibility, I guess, to read, like, at the moment, none of my kids I mean, both of my kids seem to be says, I don't know if they're always going to be says, but

I don't gender. So gender.

I think there's their sex at the moment is aligned with the gender they refer to themselves as Eric as a boy and Nora, as a daughter. But I don't know if that's going to be like that forever. So I just play by what they say. And I tried to give them the space to be like, well, if they ever say they're something different, then we'll explore that together. And same with their sexuality, I always talk about if you have a partner, I'm not assuming that any of my kids are intersexual I'm assuming that my kids, you know, we may have partners in the future. And I don't know how that's gonna look like. So even creating those spaces And changing a couple of words and couple of things, that gives them so much permission to explore things farther.

Yeah. And if I can add one idea to it that came up as for me, as we were coming through this conversation was the the idea of discomfort and what that signals, right, and I was super uncomfortable with using "they" "them" pronouns for people that we didn't know already what their gender was. And I hadn't really occurred to me until we were talking about all the areas where we feel discomfort as parents, that that's a real signal for me, right? Like if I, if I'm noticing that my child is referring to someone as they and that's making me super uncomfortable, then that's something I can really kind of tune into and ask what's going on here? Why is this uncomfortable for me? And maybe if I'm in the early stages of that journey, there's nothing I can do differently about it right now. And I'm still going to refer to "he" and "she" but maybe I can take that on over time and become more comfortable with it and realize that so much of my discomfort is based on my conditioning. Know, what I've been taught is acceptable. And that I can unlearn that if I think that it's important. So is that something I really picked up from this conversation that I'm going to carry forward. So thank you for that.

Thanks. And I think it's that defensive part and again, I do it as well, just whenever I'm comfortable, rather, instead of defending yourself, just stay with it about it. And be curious about that uncomfort.

Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here and for writing the book as well. I got so much out of reading it and I know listeners well as well. So thanks, Virginia.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah. And so a link to Virginia's book Childhood Unlimited: Parenting Beyond the Gender Bias can be found at YourParentingMojo.com/ChildhoodUnlimited.

Don't forget that Jen's book will be out in August and will help make parenting easier if you want to be notified about book readings near you, or maybe bringing Jen to your town for a workshop. Just visit YourParentingMojo.com/ book.