64. Elementary, Middle and High School Counseling: Let's Compare with Jordan Tatom

Episode 64 • 12th June 2024 • Counselor Chat Podcast • Carol Miller, School Counselor

Carol: You're listening to the counselor Chat podcast, a show for school counselors looking for easy to implement strategies, how to tips, collaboration, and a little spark of joy. I'm Carol Miller, your host. I'm a full time school counselor and the face behind counseling essentials. I'm all about creating simplified systems, data driven practices, and using creative approaches to engage students. If you're looking for a little inspiration to help help you make a big impact on student growth and success, you're in the right place because we're better together. Ready to chat? Let's dive in.

Carol: I am so excited. The: 2024

Carol: And so much more.

ilable for viewing until June: 2025

hool counselor of the year in: 2018

Jordan: Hello. Thank you for having me.

Carol: So, Jordan, why don't you. I know I gave a quick little intro, but do you want to fill people in a little bit about who you are and what your role looks like now?

Jordan: Sure. Thank you. So I am currently a high school counselor in a rural school. Thankfully, this year I had a co counselor, so we have about 520 students collectively, but on each of our caseloads, we have a little over 200. Last year, however, it was just me. So I transitioned to high school at grades nine through twelve. And thankfully, this year, my second year at the high school, we did have two school counselors. So that was a huge help. And that counselor was actually transitioning from elementary to high school, so I was able to help guide her through that transition. So it is important to remember, I think, when you're talking about transitioning from elementary, middle and high school, to note that each county and each school is different. It's based on the administration, based on state policies, county policies. So it is important to understand that while we can learn from each other and each other's experiences, it is important to understand that there are some of those differences. And even within a county, what one school counselor does might look different than another school counselor based on their administrators. So we can. It's important that we advocate for our roles and work within those expectations as good as we can.

Carol: Yeah, that's such a great point that you brought up, that no matter where you are, it can look a lot different just moving to a different building, even, I think, if you're in the same level, because I know that I've worked not only at different levels, but in different districts, and they all did things differently. So it's amazing sometimes how different it can look from even like the same, like a high school in one district to a high school in the neighboring district, how different they can be same with elementary or middle school. So, yeah, that was a great, great thing. I don't think I talked about that like, I've talked about transitioning before, but I've never talked about how those differences and those are great to point out.

Jordan: Thank you. I think it's just important for us to remember that as we do think about the differences of those grade levels when it comes to the responsibilities of the counselor. And maybe their engagement with the related arts rotation, or lack thereof, is very much dependent on the county and the administration within the school. But thinking about a transition, one of the biggest things that I've taken away is that the end of the day, kids are kid. There's a lot of similarities in relation to how we process information and the fact that students want someone who listens. So obviously, some of the issues that students within various grade levels have will be different, but there's also complex needs and situations that, unfortunately, can very. Be very traumatic and impact a high school student. For example, loss of a loved one or witnessing something very traumatic. And that can happen at any grade level. So I do think it's important to note when it comes to counseling that there are some similarities when you approach those individual conversations, but also understanding that there's differences. I can be a little bit more frank with a high school student, whereas not as much with an elementary student. For example, I can pull in a high school student and we can talk about their grades a little bit more, frankly, of how in the world are you failing the class? Whereas it was part of that, you know, understanding and knowing the student, even the high school level, some. Some students, you know, you don't need to address like that, but especially the elementary level, starting a little smoother in that conversation and, you know, obviously encouraging the student. So there are definitely some differences in the various grade levels because children develop at different rates and have different needs. But it always encourages me when I notice at all the different grade levels how resilient children are.

Carol: You do have a lot of the same conversations, I think, no matter what grade level that you are. But as you were talking about the academics and failing classes, all I could picture is when I worked with seniors or juniors, I say, hey, you know, you're failing this class. What's going on? And the kid would just look at you and simply say, hi, I didn't go to class or I didn't do the work. And they knew exactly why they weren't passing. But if you talk to, like, a second grader and you say, oh, honey, how is classes going? They're great. Like, they have no concept of really how they're doing. So that might be the one big difference between, like, the. The wee little loves and. And the bigger kids when it comes to conversations, but it's, but it's true, like grief. We have kids in the elementary that have grief, kids in the middle, kids in the high school. I mean, that's just a conversation that nobody likes to have but has to be probably had at one point in time, no matter what grade level that you're working with.

Jordan: Yeah. And in my experience, going from comparing individual counseling to large group classroom sessions, that sort of thing, at elementary level, typically you're going to have more of an expectation where weekly you're probably meeting with every class or at least every other week. So the classroom lessons that I led definitely were more the elementary level and then a little bit less the middle school level and the high school level. Again, part of it depends on where you're at. At my current school, we are starting to transition to where we are going to have more whole group lessons that are more social emotional related. Historically at the school, there's been more grade level and classroom level discussions related to academics, for example, credits and that sort of thing. And speaking of credits, that's for me, one of the biggest differences between high school and elementary and middle school counseling is it's typically the school counselor that is helping the students make sure that they have the credits they need to graduate and spending time with the graduation requirements in your state, understanding how many credits they have to have and which credits, there are certain courses that they have to take. Sometimes in certain orders, there are certain subjects that maybe they need one per year, and other subjects, they just have to have a certain total. And it doesn't matter how many they have in a year. There's certain courses that can count in multiple ways depending on how you view it, course substitutions. So there is a little bit more of the high school counseling that can get more an academic in that sense, if you will. Because again, we're one of the ones that the administration looks to as to whether or not that student has met the requirements to graduate. And that's a pretty big deal.

Carol: It is a big deal because I think for high school counselors, you are responsible. I always felt like in the high school you are really, you're really working for kids, whereas in elementary and the middle school, you're kind of working with kids. And I say that because in the elementary and middle school, like, you're sitting down with them, you're having these groups, you're, you're running your lessons, you're having these conversations, trying to teach them skills so that they learn how to regulate their emotions or learn how to cope or different things like that. But in the high school you are, you're right. You're tracking those credits, you're making sure they're on track to graduate, that they fulfilled the right requirements in the right succession, and that if they're applying to college, you have to do all the college stuff and make sure it's all, everything's together. So, yeah, there's.

Jordan: Exactly. And a few minutes ago, we were talking about understanding the differences just between schools and not necessarily between grade levels. And with that being said, there is something to be said if you are a high school counselor and you are only 10th grade or you are only juniors. One of the schools in our county, there's one counselor per grade level and each one has around 400 students or so. So they have quite a large caseload, but they're focusing on one grade level, whereas you might be a counselor in a more rural school, like I was last year with about 500 students. So a similar caseload as the other counselors a little bit more, but I had four grade level. So while I'm working with seniors to try to make sure that they have met the deadlines for FAFSA and scholarships and all those sort of things, I'm also working with the rising freshmen or the current 8th graders to make sure that they understand the high school requirements so that when it gets time to request their courses for high school, they know what's going on. Working with the middle school is very important, that middle school counselor and the teachers and also the parents. But I say that to say that each of those grade levels have unique and different needs, that's important to understand. And one of the biggest things I did that was helpful is reach out to a high school counselor who had done it for years, who basically gave me a snapshot of which responsibilities should be focused on during certain months of the year. So the way that I view it is in high school, they're sort of different seasons. There's FAFSA seasons, there's scholarship season, there's freshman orientation season. So obviously not all those thoughts are in the chronological order, but there are different things to focus on during different times. And one of the best ways to learn that is by talking to somebody who has done it. You don't have to be a school counselor in the same way that they have. But learning when they do certain things is very important to make sure that nothing is unintentionally looked over, especially when it comes to high school.

Carol: Right. I think in terms of all the grade levels, that's probably most true in the high school level because there, there are certain seasons, right. You can't apply for scholarships. Well, you can kind of all year long, but for the most part there's a season for that when you apply for them. There's a season for when you get your applications in. There is a season for when you have to start the registration process for the next school year in terms of classes and picking out classes and programming the schedule. So it's very like, almost like caught in pace. Like this is what you do it when, whereas I think at the other levels with my experience, and you can tell me if it's been the same for you, but it's great to know, I think, what other counselors have done. But if you're kind of like the sole counselor or the only one, or maybe you have a small team, you can almost pick and choose when you do certain things. Unless of course your district is saying you have to do red Ribbon week or you have to do this or you have to do that because those are kind of seasonal. But for the most part, like if you're talking like, hey, I have to do classroom lessons and I'm going to do it on coping skills. Well, some schools might do coping skills in September and some might do it in May. So it all depends. There's no like this has to be done exactly at this time.

Jordan: Exactly. There is a lot of flexibility and that's good. And again, you know, one of the biggest differences is as a high school counselor, in my experience, you're going to have more one on one conversations with students about college career. I know for, for me, looking into college counseling resources was very important because obviously as a middle school counselor, an elementary counselor, that wasn't my wheelhouse. I didn't really know anything about that world. So even though college counseling is not the only thing I do is one of the things I do. So I know for me in this region, it's, I'm a member of SACCAC, which is the Southern association of College and Career Counseling or something like that, which admissions counseling.

Carol: Yeah, I was, when I was in high school, I was NACAC, which is the New York association for that. So yeah, I know exactly what you mean. That's a good thing to join if you're definitely at a high school level.

Jordan: And again, thinking about the differences of going from elementary to high school, there is, in my experience, at least more, like you said, freedom to do what you feel is necessary when it's necessary. Now that being said, my experience from talking to others is if they're in a larger county, sometimes they do, because they're so big, micromanage. Certain things need to be done certain times, and I understand that. But thankfully, being in a more rural school, in a rural district, we have a little bit more flexibility to do what we feel is in the best interest of our students. Right. So that's very important.

Carol: You know, as we're talking, I keep thinking, like, back to some of my experiences. And when I was a high school counselor, I started as a 912 counselor, the sole counselor of my building. I had about 480 students. And then we hired a second counselor and I became the junior senior counselor. And at that point in time, because we had such a large percentage of our kids going on to college, I felt like for like, the trainings and stuff that I needed, that it was really important that I made sure that I joined NACAC and I made sure that I went to all the college board trainings and I went through, like, the FAFSA trainings that were in our region. And if there is in New York, we have the SUNY school, State University of New York, and they always had these programs called op inform, where you would go and you would hear about all the different requirements and changes that they were making in the SUNY system. And those were super important to go to, those I would never go to now. But as an elementary counselor, now, the trainings and things that I need are more like, how do I deal with this situation, or how do I deal with that? Or how can I do this more efficiently? So even, like trainings and anything, things that you get involved in are just a little bit different?

Jordan: Yes. Well, in thinking about trainings and being outside of the school, again, when I was in a k eight or even a middle school, because there was a large classroom portion, a lot of times if I was out, I would need a sub, and that sub would have students. Whereas at the high school level, if there is a meeting at Middle Tennessee State University for school counselors during the school day about your seniors who are going to graduate and the opportunities that they have, I can go to that meeting. And there are several meetings that I've been to throughout this year for school counselors in making sure we have the information we need to inform our students about the opportunities they have. And as a k eight counselor, that just wasn't something I needed to do. So there is a difference there in relation to, you know, the type of PD and even the flexibility in the day. And speaking of how you spend your day. It is also important to remember that in a lot of schools and districts that I'm aware of, high school counselors typically have an extended contract. Now that will look different, but for me on paper, an eleven month employee. So I work ten months as all the teachers do, and then I work four extra weeks in the summer. So a lot of people do two weeks at the end of the school year and two weeks at the beginning of the school year. So that totals your four. As other districts, you know, it might just be a week, it might be two weeks, but that's something also to think about if you're considering changing levels is one, if you're going from high school to middle or elementary and you're used to working in the summer and you're used to having that as part of your income, then you need to know you're not going to have that anymore, more than likely. And then if you are going to move from elementary or middle school because the type of work in high school seems appealing, then you also need to be aware that you're probably going to give up a few weeks of your summer. Now, your salary might increase and so therefore your income. But there are those differences that I think need to be weighed in relation to your days that are worked also in high school. And this might depend on, you know, your administration and the situation, but there's pretty much an expectation that I attend graduation now, I want to, but there also is this expectation that that I attend and I have a part in it and I help out. My role at our school is I hand the diplomas to the or the diploma covers to the principal, but that's because the names are on the covers. So that way he doesn't have to read the name or think about it. He just, yeah, I hand it to him and then he shakes the hand. So it might seem like a small role, but it's very helpful for him. And then I typically will help clean up afterwards and even set up before the event. And then also thinking about sporting events, you know, it's not an expectation that I go, however, especially in the high school level. Well, and, you know, in middle school, it can definitely encourage your students and help build that relationship. If you attend some sporting events, I think it's good to think about some of those extracurricular activities also.

Carol: Yeah, I think with sporting events too, like I think back we had so many students that were doing the NCAA and wanting to do like d one or d two schools. So it was also important, at least for me, because I had to help with that. And I did a lot of helping with the recruitment process sometimes and talking to different colleges and things because I was a college athlete at one point in time. That was really helpful for me to go and see what they were doing and really what their skill level was. Granted, I'm not a recruiter and I'm not a coach, but it was helpful because then I could say, yeah, they're like, they really stand out. Like I could honestly talk to someone and they knew that I was only a school counselor, but sometimes they like to just hear a different perspective. That was kind of nice.

Jordan: Yeah. And I'm glad to bring that up because logistically, you know, that's another thing that, at least in our school, the school counselor does, and that is the transcripts and that sort of thing in the NCAA portal, in the NAIA portal, and whatever other college organizations, you know, there are, is if typically it is within the role of the school counselor to make sure that those are resources and portals and whatnot are updated.

Carol: Exactly. And that that can be timely and consuming. Just a quick question. What do you do in your summer? Like, how do you spend your summer days?

Jordan: So that's a good question. So I will say that this is my second summer, so I'm still learning and I'm by no means an expert, however, not necessarily in this order, but in the summer I spend my time auditing transcript. And when I say that, what that means is I'm looking at the transcript and comparing it with the requirements to graduate and making sure that the student is on track. For our county, it's been a little bit more complex because we moved from 22 credits to 28, but we are slowly doing that. So this year our seniors had to have 22. Juniors are going to have to have 24, sophomores have 26, the freshmen have 28. So there's all these different requirements to keep track of. But that's one of the things I do in the summer is I audit transcripts. I also do that during the school year. But once grades are finalized, and I know, you know, whether or not students have earned credits, I audit that transcript. And that also highlights whether or not students need to do credit recovery for certain grades or if they need to retake certain classes. Because, you know, again, one of the differences between high school and middle school is, you know, middle school, you don't necessarily have to pass 7th grade math to complete middle school. Well, high school you have to pass algebra one in order to graduate, at least in the state of Tennessee. So I have students this year that were taking algebra one for the third time because they have to have algebra one to graduate. So auditing transcripts is something big I do in the summer.

Carol: I just want to say that one of the things that I did when I was in high school is my summers were primarily all scheduling. Like I did the master schedule. It was me. That was my job and that took all of my summer days.

Jordan: In the summer, in addition to working on auditing transcript, I also send final transcripts to colleges. That's actually a pretty big task. I think the first step is transcripts have to be finalized, and in our county central office does that. And then they let us know they're finalized. I print them off. I have our principal sign them, and then we have a special stamp that we stamp those with. And then I scan it electronically and then upload it to whatever system that that college is using. Some colleges still are okay with emails, so I will send transcripts that way. But the last big portion part of the summer is sending final transcripts. And then the other big one is scheduling. I think you were mentioning that while I was trying to get back on is right now we are sort of polishing the course requests and pretty soon we'll populate course schedules and then we will start fixing those because there will be conflicts that might put a student in an elective that they don't necessarily need and not put them in something that they have to have. So there's a lot of, you know, policy in that. And then right before school starts, we will have a time where students can come in with their parents and drop ad. So again, that is a big difference with k eight counseling is that they're typically not that summer expectation. Now I will say that when I was in the middle school, I did have some experience working with our student information system and our principal was not a huge fan scheduling. So I volunteered to do that basically for, for some comp time. So there are some districts where you middle school counselors will have an extended contract. You can get paid or perhaps you can talk to your administrator about comp time. So sometimes that is a similarity between middle school and high school. But high school, when you are working on those scheduling needs and requests, you do have to keep in mind those transcript audit and factor in what they have to have to graduate.

Carol: When, I will say, when I was a middle school counselor, I also, I worked 20 days as well and it was still the same thing. I was doing the master schedule in elementary. I don't know. Did you have any summer days as an elementary counselor, I did not. You didn't. In the one district I worked at, we had ten days. And during those ten days, most of them were spent doing kindergarten registration, like we did, like the testing for the incoming kindergarteners to see what their levels were. I forget what the name of the test is that we use, but we did this like kindergarten readiness test. And then in the district that I'm at now, we work three days. I'm actually, I had it negotiated when I was hired that I worked ten, but I never worked ten days. I only work three. And we just go in and we meet as a department and we kind of say, oh, this is what we're going to be doing. We might have a little trainings for some of the, like, the outside programs that we work with, but other than that, like, yeah, there's no scheduling. There's, there's none of that. So Jordan, what is the one thing that you love about each, like grade level?

Jordan: So the one thing I love about elementary is the hug. I. Yeah, I went to a K eight after being in middle school and the first thing that surprised me was when I was standing there and I forgot what I was doing when I was standing there and a kindergartner just came up and hugged my leg. And there'd be times where I'm just walking in the hallway going to a certain place, get these little, little hugs. So I'd say that's one of the things that I loved about elementary counseling is the affection that students would show. And obviously as an adult we do have to be mindful of how we react. But I wouldn't start those. They would just come up then it's important to encourage them. Middle school, yeah, middle school is a different animal for sure, and those students are in a different space. But I think what I love about that grade level is their quirkiness, if you will. Just. It's sort of hard to describe it, but they're different. They're beginning to be more independent and obviously there's some negatives there, but there's also a lot of fun as they begin to develop into who they're going to be. And obviously they don't arrive there yet. They're close as 8th graders. But what's been fun in the high school setting is I have had the opportunity to work with some of the same students that I worked with at the k eight and it's been a joy to see how those students have progressed and how they've grown up. And you see some of that quirkiness if you will go away. But they begin to develop into the adult that they're going to be. One of the things that I really enjoy about the high school level is having those conversations about post secondary, whether it's career, military, college, whatever it is, it's fun talking to them about that next step.

Carol: Yeah, that's the part I enjoyed the most about that level too. And they would get so passionate and so excited and it was so nice to see kids like kind of find something that they truly enjoyed and were passionate about. And I really, I love that about the high school. For me, working with the elementary, it's true. Like those hugs are awesome. But like you can walk into a classroom and it's like you're like a rock star. It's like you have come in and you're like Taylor Swift walking into a packed room and they're all cheering for you. Right? Like that's, that's awesome. And the things that they say to you, like I don't usually wear a lot of earrings and I wore hoops the other day and I walked into class and they're like, misses Miller, you have your ears pierced. And I was like, what kid, like looks at that. But elementary kids do like, they know everything. Your high schoolers wouldn't notice and your middle schoolers wouldn't care. But those elementary kids, they'll notice. And then with the middle school, it is, it's their quirkiness, it's their, they're just starting to find like they're beginning to have a sense of humor too. And you can joke around with them and kid with them and I can at the elementary, but you really can do that at the middle school. I love that. So. Yeah, for sure. Yep. And then one last question before I think we end this. But if you were to give some advice to somebody that's maybe transferring levels, what would you tell them would be like some of the things that were hard that you didn't know about at first that maybe you wish that you had an understanding of.

Jordan: That's a very good question. I think the biggest thing for me is, at least in helping prevent that from happening, is talking to those veteran counselors who have done it for years. And one of the best tasks that I was given, the very first thing as a high school counselor, it was technically before I officially started, but I was given the stack of high school transcripts of the current seniors and I was asked to audit those. And I used the auditing form that my predecessor used, but that helped me get in the mindset of thinking about the doctoral credits, and sometimes there was a class that I think a student would need and they were missing. But then I learned that there was a course that could count towards that credits. So for me, that was the biggest hurdle between k eight and high school, was the whole credit component. So starting right off the bat, auditing transcripts was huge. And I would say because that was effective for me, the co counselor that has worked with me this year, that's one of the first tasks that she did was to audit transcripts because that helps give you an idea which courses students take, which time, the different options we have. So that, yeah, it's really hard for me to think, you know, one main thing at the beginning of the year, I would say that's one of the most important things to do is to wrap your head around those requirements because that's very important for your seniors. And then just knowing the different seasons is what I call them, the different tasks that need to be completed either by you or my student. So, for example, FAFSA, a scholarship. I will say that the biggest thing for me was we have a lot of local scholarships. And there was not that there was a binder of local scholarships, but there was not like an excel spreadsheet of all the different contact, food, contacts who I needed to contact, a lot of that, I had to do a lot of digging. So before it gets to that time period, if you're a new high school counselor, you know, you're looking around and you're working with seniors and so that there's local scholarship, but you don't see a list anywhere, then you need to start doing some digging. And what I would do is I would give those applications to students, you know, at the beginning of the school year and create some sort of deadline before the local organizations and whatnot would actually require those to be due. So I would say that those few things are the biggest is auditing transcripts, getting your head around that, local scholarships, and just sort of knowing what you need to be doing during the different times of the year.

Carol: Yeah, I think that's really important when you're moving up levels because knowing those deadlines and things like that, I did the opposite. I went from the upper levels down, like from high school to middle school and then to elementary and the move from high school to middle school, the one thing that I think I had to realize was, oh, my God, what do I do now? Like, there's no seniors coming to me. I don't have, like, that set schedule and I can remember thinking, what do I do with these kids? Do I just put like a sign above my door that says, open, welcome, come on in and start recruiting them? Am I going to be like Lucy from the peanut gang with my little sign on my door? Because I wasn't really sure what to do with the kids. And then it took me a little while to figure out and to get to know all the teachers and, and things like that. But then the biggest hurdle I think I had when I went from middle school to elementary was I was given like a second grade class that I was thrown into the rotations for. And I can remember saying, oh, my gosh, I made like this awesome lesson plan, but these kids can't read. They can't even read the directions that I want them to now to do this little worksheet that I have for them, that was the biggest hurdle. Moving down that way was just understanding what was appropriate and developmentally correct for each kind of like grade level, because it just varies so much. Like middle school, they all pretty much can read. High school, if they don't know how to read, then that's a serious problem. But they all have a general concept. But in elementary, from kindergarten to first to second to fifth, like, those are huge jumps.

Jordan: Yeah, yeah. And again, well, I will say I went from middle school for four years to then being in a k eight. So the little kids was definitely new to me, so understanding what they can comprehend, and what I found then was the school that I was at, I didn't have a face to teach the lessons, so I would go to the classroom that the teacher had. And actually, I think that was a little better because it gave me a little insight into their classroom management and had the kids in a very familiar environment. But one of the things I found in elementary especially was I would either sometimes take them outside when I had them or sometimes go out and watch the students during recess. Because one of the biggest formative assessments I think you can use for social emotional learning for elementary students is recess. Watching them interact with one another in an unstructured environment helps you understand where they are developmentally. And I'll admit sometimes I took classes outside and, you know, teachers thought I was just taking kids outside and, you know, they can have that opinion, but I thought it was very important for me to understand how the kids were doing. And I say that because when I first started as an elementary counselor, I was going in and having classroom lessons on being a good friend and being kind and all those great things. But then I got feedback from teachers saying how students were struggling with some of those guilts. And I kept thinking to myself, okay, well, I don't understand because we covered this. I talked to this with these kids. But then what I started doing was using those formative assessments, essentially during recession, and then either sometimes as a whole class or even sometimes individually or small groups, I would do some reinforcements while we were out there in relation to some of those social emotional skills that students had deficits in. So I do think, you know, it is important to, while, you know, when we started or highlighted that there's some similarities between students, no matter their age, there's a lot of differences also. And it is important when we're comparing those different grade levels as a school counselor, there's definitely different focuses that we're going to have at the different grade level.

Carol: Exactly. So, Jordan, thank you so much for sharing all this. And I just want to say to people that are listening to this today that Jordan has a session at our summer counselor conference, and he is going to really dive in deep into all the differences between elementary, middle, and high school and what you can expect if you're transferring or looking for a different job. Focus. Really, so it'll be really good. So if that's you and you're thinking about it or you want to know more what a different level is like, you need to come to the conference and hear from Jordan. So, yeah, that's my little plug.

Jordan: Well, thank you so much, feral, for having me. I appreciate it, and I look forward to the session this summer.

Carol: Yeah, thank you for coming. I really appreciate it. Let's do one fun question before you leave. Are you ready?

Jordan: All right.

Carol: Okay. If you were a car, what kind of car would you be and why?

Jordan: Well, I know if I was a car, what kind of car I would want to be, that's not necessarily the same as what car I would be, because physically, I am not who I want to be. So what I would want to be is I love technology. I would want to be a Tesla. However, I think I would probably be more like my current car, which is a Prius, a little bit of the old. So there's still an engine, there's gas, but there's a little bit of new at the same time with the. The battery and the electronic motor. So I would say if I were to think of what car I am, that would be a Prius. The car I would want to be is a Tesla.

Carol: Okay. I love that. That's great. Yeah, that's great. All right, well, thank you once again for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it. And for those people that are listening, I'm going to drop the link to the summer counselor conference in our show notes, and I hope that you check us out. I hope you come and join us this summer. Until next week, bye for now, it.

Carol: Thanks for listening to today's episode of Counselor Chat. All of the links I talked about can be found in the show notes and@counselingessentials.org podcast. Be sure to hit, follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast player. And if you would be so kind to leave a review, I'd really appreciate it.

Carol: Want to connect?

Carol: Send me a DM on Facebook or Instagram at counseling essentials until next time. Can't wait till we chat.

Carol: Bye for now.

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