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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Cybersecurity, Internet report, Vulnerability, Patching, Protocols, Industrial controls, Critical infrastructure, Threats, Threat actors, AI, Shadow IT, Data security, Network security, System vulnerabilities, Software updates

00:00

Yes, you need to get your cybersecurity house in order. You need to attend the Barcelona Cybersecurity Congress that is November 3 through the fifth, and meet the best cybersecurity leaders in the world to help you along on your cybersecurity journey and who are protecting our future. Enter promo code BCCpodcast26 and get your discount. I will be there. I would like to see you there. Talk soon.

00:34

Welcome to the Industrial Talk podcast with Scott Mackenzie. Scott is a passionate industry professional dedicated to transferring cutting-edge, industry-focused innovations and trends, while highlighting the men and women who keep the world moving. So put on your hard hat, grab your work boots, and let's go!

00:52

As always, welcome to Industrial Talk. Thank you very much for joining the number one industrial-related podcast in the universe that celebrates you. Industry professionals all around the world. You're bold. You're brave. You dare greatly. You innovate. You collaborate. You're solving problems each and every day. That's why we celebrate you. That's why you are the heroes of this story we have in the hot seat, Martine Grooten. I'm trying to say his last name. Probably he's all away from the Netherlands, and he's with a company called Censys, and we're going to be talking specifically around Censys State of the Internet Report, which is a all the links are out there. Let's get cracking. Yeah, this is with the Barcelona Cybersecurity Congress. As you could tell by the intro or by the the promo, you need to be a part of this wonderful event. You need to be able to put in that particular code, the code for discount. Just go out to industrial talk. I don't want to get it wrong and frustrate you, but there is a code. You need to be there. You need to be able to connect with people like Martine, and be able to, you know, protect what is important to you, and that's your business because you're all connected. Yeah, you are whether you like it or not. You're all connected. So just keep that in mind. You need to have these conversations, and again, you don't have to be on your own. You go to the Barcelona Cybersecurity Congress; they're all there. They're all passionate about helping you succeed in protecting your business. They just are. Bottom line, no doubt about it. You find the company that has your best interest at heart. Of course, I'm I'm thinking Censys, and has their finger on the pulse of what's taking place because it is moving fast. So anyway, you need to go to Barcelona Cybersecurity Congress. I'll be there. I'll be broadcasting. This is a a lengthy conversation, so I'm going to keep my intro definitely short. So enjoy this conversation with Martine. Martine, welcome to Industrial Talk. This is the Barcelona Cybersecurity Podcast in conjunction with Industrial Talk. You can find his conversation out on industrial talk, but I like the Barcelona cybersecurity group. You're great, man. How are you doing today?

03:27

I'm doing great. I'm actually in Spain. What I say already? Seville. I'm in Seville. Yeah, for a different event. I'll go back home after this, and then I'll find myself in Barcelona in three weeks again. I'm excited.

03:40

It's right around the corner. I get to see you. I get to meet you in person.

03:45

I'm looking forward to that.

03:46

Oh, I likewise. I'm I'm always happy to be able to meet great people like you and others. And it's like, yeah, my my life. Nobody complains. Hard time. Nobody complains. So I'm I'm all good about that. All right. Before we get in the conversation, and this is a from what I gather, the report is specifically around cybersecurity. I'm looking at it, the internet report, Censys state internet report, which is going to be a cool conversation, just because I have your form in front of me and I want to be able to hear and see what's going on with that. And but before we do that, you need to give us a little background. I have your industrial or your LinkedIn stat card out there. You've been in cybersecurity clearly.

04:32

I've been I've been in cybersecurity. I think it will be 20 years in January. I kind of came to here by accident. I needed a job, found a job at a small cybersecurity company, liked what they were doing, and kind of never looked back. Worked all over the place, many different things, many different companies, and as of May of this year, I've been at Censys.

04:54

So here's the funny thing: as I as I look at it, I just like anything else that's happened. In industry, and things are happening fast. There's a velocity that exists in the marketplace, and it's not just it's it's with manufacturing. What can we do to be more efficient? It's it's at every level. There's a speed. I don't know, and I bet you have some insights into the changes that have been taking place within the world of cybersecurity, you've been in it for 20 years. I can only imagine what you see. Share with us just a just a snippet of how things have changed.

05:34

Things have gotten very big. Like cybersecurity was a much smaller place in 2007 when I joined. These days,

05:42

yeah,

05:42

probably every day cybersecurity touches the news somehow. My my home country, the Netherlands, the big supermarket chain has its systems offline because a security related incident. I haven't said much, so I don't know what's happening there. But that's almost the norm now. And back in back in the early days, I had to explain what I was doing and what cybersecurity was, and I kind of sadly don't have to explain anymore. Everyone knows it.

06:11

Yeah, nobody, you don't. And that's that's interesting. So I always look at the market, and I look at the market from from a macro perspective. And there are so many companies out there that exist today that are not well protected, tons, gazillions. I don't even. I don't even know the man. There are companies that are protected, companies that that understand the necessity for a solid cybersecurity strategy. But then there's a lot that it doesn't exist. So it's it's sort of an interesting bag. And and if you're in the if you're in the world of being nefarious in the world of cybersecurity, yeah, it's a rich market out there. I hate to say it, but there's just always options.

06:51

That's true. That's true. But I'm also I like to be a bit of an optimist. Things have also gotten so much so much more secure in in the past 20 years, and that's that's also awesome. Like I I don't want to say like the bad people are winning or so as some people do.

07:09

No, it's just because of people like you, because you're nimble. You you you just keep up, and you're just you're you and your team that that that smart. Let's put it that way. All right, let's talk a little bit about this as I pull up this thing. What? How often have you guys published this Censys state of the internet report?

07:30

Ooh, that's a good question. I wouldn't even know. I know we've been publishing it for a few years. I don't even know when the first one came out. That's probably like three or four years ago. Like I've only been with the company since since May, and I've made some contributions to to this year's report, which we think is our best one yet, and definitely the most detailed one yet. But it's been an annual thing for for a couple of years now.

07:52

Yeah, I think it's important. I so with that said, what's the premise behind this Censys date? What are you trying to address in the market for companies, what are there? Is it is it across the board? If I'm in manufacturing, this is a good report. If I'm in whatever, is it a good report?

08:14

There's probably a bit in it for for everyone.

08:17

Good.

08:17

I think I think that the most important thing, and I wasn't part of the reason you published this is that we have a lot of data, and we have we probably see things that no one else sees, and we just want to share that. and And there are things in there. I mean, marketing might essentially marketing might not agree with me, or might not agree with me saying this, but some parts of the report are boring. They just have boring data, but no one has looked at the data, and if you're, for some reason, and we can all kind of always guess the reason, you want to know how many people are running NTP, the timekeeping protocol, on on a non-standard port, and we have the answer. That's that's pretty much no one, and that's probably something that people could have guessed, but wouldn't be sure. And there's a lot of a lot of data in there. That's that's just yeah. We just like to present the data to to the cybersecurity community or industry, if you want.

09:11

It it now again you you sort of segmented the cybersecurity community. Is are there sections of the report that would be more generalized, maybe I can consume and saying, "Oh, that's interesting information. I don't have to be a cybersecurity professional. I might have enough to make myself dangerous a little bit, but there's there's something in that report for me too.

09:37

Well, most of it is is like a high level picture, So it it helps you as a cybersecurity professional, and and cybersecurity is such a broad industry. Oh, huge! There's no there's not one cybersecurity professional, and and but if you're in a say your your job is partly to protect an organization. Can be a company, can be a government, can be a non-profit, can be a university. This report is good to look at because you might find certain things that you put on the internet because that's what it's about. That's make directly accessible from the internet. That is not that shouldn't be there, or if it should be there, you should make sure that you that you fix it. Now, this report is not so much about giving this advice. Others have done that, but it provides the data behind that advice. It says this is important, and so many people or so many hosts on the internet are not doing this.

10:35

Yeah, no, I'm bullish on it. Okay, so you've got this report high level. You're not diving really too deep, which is you can. If if I'm a professional in the world of cybersecurity and something piques my interest, I can. Hey, I'm going to go for find some more information about it. You know, I can I can always do that. Okay, talk to us about the challenges. Let's let's why let's take us through sort of that step of what you're what are you seeing in the ecosystem of cybersecurity and the professionals out there?

11:12

There's a lot of different things in the report. The report has five main sections, and one of the sections is on on vulnerability and vulnerability response, and in particular talking about and and for those listeners who who don't know vulnerability is is a weakness in a in a computer system that can be exploited. For example, you have a a router or router depending on which version of English you you speak that gives access to your company networks and and these things they need to be connected to the internet. That's sort of that. That's why they're out there. That maybe that allows staff when they're not to the office to to log into the the company network. It's important that only people with the right credentials and usually like a special token get access. But sometimes it's a vulnerability that if you make a very specific request, like certain characters in the in the request you get access anyway, and these things happen like that. Just we accept that we accept that any system vulnerabilities are being found in. What is important though is that these are patched. Now, cyber companies or the companies making these these routers, the manufacturers, they tend to few exceptions, but in general, these days we have matured so much in industry that things are being patched. Batches are being released, and there's advisories that are pretty pretty clear. The main challenge is getting people, getting organizations to actually patch, and that's where we get some insight. Like, are people batching vulnerabilities?

12:44

Yeah. So, does the report it gives some sort of strategies? Just say vulnerabilities here. This is what we're seeing out there in the internet. This is what, and it's all you know. It's it's improving. Whatever it might be, if you find yourself in a situation where you might be questioning your your your capabilities, here go here, do this, maybe look at this, whatever. Does it give some sort of direction into potential solving issues?

13:19

Unfortunately, no, and and and the reason is that it's pretty simple. Always make sure you run up-to-date software. Always patch as soon as software is available. And if you have a large organization and you want to do things like like test patches, make sure you have procedures for that. Make sure that whenever a manufacturer or publishes a new version of of some software. Make sure you patch as soon as available, and and you know do the whole patching, testing, etc. What you want to do?

13:48

Yeah, and that's when that's when things start to go awry. Sometimes, man, it is you know is that that takes time. That

13:58

that's fair.

13:59

You know that's but within the organization, you know, and I and I always work with the operation side. You know, I get the IT side, I get the operation side, and operations always has some sort of driver, right? I gotta, I gotta produce. I gotta do this. I gotta do that. I, I, I can't, I gotta have, you know, whatever the litany of complaints are. But the reality is, is that they need, we need to be protected. Yeah, you want operational consistency, and and you need to protect yourself. You said there's five components. You you spoke of one. Give me, give me start. Let's go through that list.

14:36

So the one that we just talked about is is vulnerabilities.

14:38

Yes.

14:39

There's also something where we look into the what we call the shape of the internet: boards, protocols, certificates. There's many different internet protocols. There's HTTP, which everyone knows, which is the protocol for for web web traffic. There's DNS, which is the protocol for domain name resolution. Older readers should think of as the phone book of the internet, but young people don't even know what phone books are anymore. Desktops, which is a proxy protocol, and there's many of these protocols. And one thing we looked at, one of many things we looked at, is do these protocols always run on the port, on their standard port, the default port for HTTP, for example, it's it's 80 is the default HTTP port, and 443 is the port for HTTPS, which is HTTP over TLS, encrypted web server, which most of the internet is these days. And the answer is, it really depends between protocols. Like some protocols, DNS, for example, runs almost entirely on port 53, which is the DNS port. But HTTP actually more than two thirds of HTTP services run outside port 80 and 443.

15:58

Sarah, you go through that protocol, you you start identifying it, and I'm looking at it specifically from my little world. Right, I've got a website, I've got stuff, I've got some technology out there. Is there a need for me to? I mean, I haven't looked at that. I haven't looked. It's it's already done. Is there a need to be able to sort of circle back and saying, hey, you better be careful.

16:22

Well, one say you're you're a system administrator, or you run a large organization, and and you know that the standard HTTP ports are 40 and sorry, 80 and 443, and you make sure these are well protected. That you have a you have a web gateway or something, or a WAF or something like that. You protect these, but realize that hey, maybe your company is running services on other ports because there's an administ an admin panel on a different port, and that can be a weakness. That can be a way in basically a nice segue to a different different part of the report, a different section is a industrial control systems and critical infrastructure.

17:08

Yes, yes, go expand. I I agree with you 100% I was going to go down that road, but go ahead, continue.

17:16

Factories, power plants, water stations, all connect to the internet. Yeah, and one thing that we know: so many of these run their own protocol, like like a kind of an obscure protocol. We we detect it, but we don't see, or we as as an industry doesn't don't see many attacks on these protocols, this because they're obscure, they're hard to hard to understand and hard to do something with. This might change because AI might actually speed things up. But what we notice on on 80% of of hosts that run an industrial control system service, they also run a non-ICS service. For example, HTTP. So there is a there's a protocol that allows you to remotely monitor a factory.

18:13

Yeah, PCS or or PLCs. They're they're all out there, and they have the other devices, the IOPT devices that are on these collecting data, just it's it's a it's all connected in some way, shape, or form because you need it to operate your facility.

18:32

Yes, but then we found out that on 80% of these hosts, they run a non ICS service like HTTP or SSH, just a way to log into a terminal FTP, and this increases the attack surface a lot, and that makes

18:49

it. And you're saying that with the advent, of course, and it's just going to continue to grow and evolve and whatever, whatever permutations it it exists. That AI component will be able to sort of at least you just have to be aware of that. Just it's it's out there.

19:07

AI can speed things up a lot. Yeah,

19:10

yeah, oh yeah. All right, we're on three now. Let's go to four. We have vulnerability protocols, industrial controls. What are we talking about for

19:20

Threats.

19:22

Oh, that's

19:24

that's a that's a relatively small section of the report, but we looked at at some data about threats, and and we should say what what Centris sees is hosts on the internet that are involved in a threat. Like we don't see what's happening on on people's computers, like if they have a have malware installed or something like that running, or if they if they access a phishing page, we don't see that, but we see the phishing pages, and we see the what we call the c2 servers, the the servers that are used by by malware to communicate or for the operators to to manage their their malware, and we notice some some interesting things. One of them is is the threat actors, the the groups operating the malware that could be could be

20:06

just let me back up just just define a just define a threat. What give us a sort of a broad brush definition of threats?

20:14

Ooh, that's a very good question.

20:19

Yeah, I always

20:20

go ahead. Yeah, but because when you ask the question, I realize that in in day to day speak with threats, we mean we talk about something that's not yet happened. You know, there's a threat of of a recession, for example. And when we talk about threats in in in in cybersecurity, we usually mean things that are already happening. It is typically it means I think in a very general sense that an unauthorized actor party does something that you don't want them to do, and it could be them accessing your your banking details, your your Gmail login, or running a process on your computer, which is what we right in a small way, yeah.

21:01

Right. Okay. Good. Now continue when we we start talking about the threats. Go ahead. And

21:07

and threats are are operated by threat actors. That could be an individual hacker. That could be a group of cyber criminals. Could be a government intelligence agency. And one thing we notice by looking at at all threat infrastructure, that they tend to choose internet providers and not countries where they host their where they host their infrastructure. So they they don't decide. Hey, we're going to host it in Russia, or we're going to host it in the Netherlands, which is my home country, which is kind of infamous because there's a lot of hosting providers there, and some of them are, I would say, shady, but at the very least, objectively, they host a lot of a lot of bad stuff. And threat actors don't really choose countries; they just choose providers, and they choose infrastructure based on cost functionality, but also very importantly permissiveness.

21:59

Yeah,

22:00

they don't want their infrastructure to be taken down quickly. Like they, they kind of most threat infrastructure, with the exception of some government operations that are very long running. Most threat infrastructure for the threat actor, it's being live for some a few days or a few weeks is fine. So they want to extend that period. They they want a host that pushes back if someone knocks their door saying, "Hey, you're hosting phishing. We call it bulletproof hosting, and that's more important for the threat actor than I wanted to host to be hosted in Russia. And I mentioned Russia because a lot of cybercrime historically is from Russia. It's a global problem. Yeah,

22:37

yeah, no. And and these phishing attacks, I got to tell you, you know, and even in my little world, some and I can tell I'm not, I'm not, but they're pretty, they're pretty sophisticated. They're pretty clever. There, yeah, yeah. There's some thinking that's going on there. All right, so we got talk about again vulnerability protocols, industrial controls, threats number five.

23:05

So there's this new thing you may have heard of it. We call it AI. No, of course, of course, everyone has heard of it. A

23:12

and an I.

23:13

Yeah. And well, it's probably not the most surprising finding in the report, but public internet-facing AI infrastructure has grown a lot. Actually, it grown by 63% in the nine months we cover. That's October 2025 to go quickly July of this year. There's a lot of people putting AI things on the internet. It's not always bad. Like some, like if you have an AI chatbot, it needs to be online. That's, I mean, in general, the point of the report is not saying it's bad to put things on the internet. It's bad to put vulnerable things on the internet. It's bad to not know what's on the internet. And in some cases, the report just says people put this on the internet. Be mindful of that. But going back to AI. For example, the most exposed AI service we see is called n8 n8. There's a number eight, and it sends something. Say that.

24:10

Say that again. N 8n

24:13

N 8n letter N number eight letter N, and it stands for something that I've forgotten about. But there's an eight. There's an eight characters in the middle.

24:23

Right, right, right, right.

24:24

So, and that's something that has has grown a lot. And we noticed that. And by the way, it's an it's an orchestration service protocol. It's not it's not my line of business, so I only know the the general things anyway. But we noticed that 76% of of NHN N 8n hosts that we could that would see on the internet had at least one very vulnerability with a score of greater than nine. We. It's pretty bad. Yeah,

25:02

again, it's pretty bad. And there were 24 of these vulnerabilities, and we want to make it clear: like vulnerabilities happen, said as earlier. So we were not saying bad things about developers of N80n. 24 vulnerabilities; they were patched quickly, new updates. People were not were not updating them quickly. I think that's one of

25:26

the. That's interesting. Yeah,

25:27

yeah. That's one of the main things. Like AI makes it very easy to develop things. AI makes it very easy to put things on the internet. What AI is could in theory do, but people are not using it for it for, is build. a patching procedure, like making sure, like yeah, making sure that patches are applied, that tests are run, etc. etc. You need to you need to kind of at the very least need to tell AI to do that. Like you can use AI to put anything on the internet, including AI. People do that. They ask Claude, "Hey, I want to run Open Claw, which is a agent, something. And and Claude helps and put it online, and that's it. And then you leave it there, and then you forget about it. Like I, I was thinking about this.

26:14

That's interesting.

26:15

Many years ago, I I would write my own scripts. It was well before AI. I would write my own scripts, but I ran on my own computer,

26:21

yeah,

26:21

and that descriptor, probably knowing myself as a programmer 20 years ago, they were really insecure. But firstly, didn't matter because they were on the computer. But also, well, no, it yeah, they didn't matter because because they run on my computer. These days, you can use AI. You can make it write something, or use an already existing things like like Open Cloud. Say, hey, put it on the internet, and then you forget about that. And and that's actually, and this is an important lesson for anyone doing IT or security in in an organization of of a decent size. It's a phenomenon called shadow IT. Like people people want to do the sorry shadow AI shadow IT is a long phenomenon. All

27:05

in, I'm writing it down. Yeah,

27:07

shadow IT is the phenomenon that people use other non-official tools to do their job. And from a security point, that that's really bad. But if people want to do their job, like hey, they send something to their personal email because then then they have better access to certain documents. They have access to certain tools that work doesn't provide them with. So shadow IT is basically people trying to do their job better but creating security risks. I've once heard of of people in a certain government organization, I believe, who were so frustrated with the the security blocks that they their the employer put on their network, like that it felt that really couldn't do the job. They installed a second internet line in the in the office, like they built their own internet line, and that that's horrible from a security point of view, but it's also very, very clever if you want to do your job well. And now people are using AI on the side. Hey, they,

28:10

yeah,

28:10

they do it. It's this is seriously bad, but they upload customer data to

28:17

yes to churn on it, ChatGPT, whatever, REM, yeah, you know, whatever the prompt is. Hey, can you identify whatever you know, whatever it

28:26

is? And that that's really bad. And they might also run systems on the side. They may run, yeah, give Open Claw as an agent access to a corporate mailbox because they feel in their job they have so many emails to to reply to. I think, hey, an agent can say if it's a simple mail like that, yes, you could do something. Yeah,

28:48

yeah. You know, every every time I have conversations around cyber, there's the technology, and the technology is powerful and can deliver some real value, but it always gets down to that human being, right? And one of the biggest challenges within organizations is that hey, my IT group is preventing me from doing my job because they're saying I can't do X, Y, Z, but I got to get my job done. And just like human beings, we try to figure out a way of getting around it so that we can do what we need to do, and it is. It's always and

29:25

and and you know, in in cybersecurity, we sometimes criticize people for doing that, and of course, it's bad from a security point of view.

29:34

Yeah, oh yeah. It

29:35

also means that their their employees who want to do their job, like they could also say, "Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm not not doing my job. Boss makes that possible. Like if I keep saying that to my boss, like yeah, sorry, IT doesn't give me access. Sorry, I'm I don't deliver the report that you asked me to deliver. Yeah, my boss gonna be not particularly happy.

29:53

Yeah, yeah, it's it's definitely a dual-edged sword. Don't get me wrong. I I hear what you're saying. There's a there's an op a positive to it and a negative to it. What what was the final sort of aha in your report as we wrap this conversation up? What what what do you want to leave the listeners and and just from this report?

30:19

Ooh, that's a good question.

30:23

I didn't mean to catch you off guard. No, no,

30:25

no, no. I want them to read it all to not generate use AI to generate like a summary because that's just a lot of data. That just is good to know. It's good to know that people put a lot of HP servers or unusual ports. That's sort of information you need to have in the back of your hand when you design something new or something like that. You need to know that industrial control systems. I mean, it's 80% of them have also another servers running on the side because that that helps you understand if you want to protect these. You shouldn't just look at the ICS protocols. You should look at these as well,

31:01

yeah. Well, wonderful. He's Martine. He's in Seville. Censys is the company. We've got a report, and my recommendation is that you go out, read it, digest it, consume it, because it's a it's a real valuable document. Our time, thank you very much.

31:26

Thank you. People can find me on LinkedIn if they want to. Yeah, absolutely. The full title of the report is the State of the Internet Report.

31:34

Well, it's all going to be out on Industrial, as well as all his contact information will be out on Industrial Talk. So fear not get it all, be protected, and and reach out to Martine because I mean, come on, he's a good guy. You can tell he's a good guy. All right, we're going to wrap it up on the other side. Stay tuned. We will be right back.

31:53

You're listening to the Industrial Talk Podcast Network.

31:59

All right, before we get into the conversation, I want you to be aware of a conference that you need to put on your calendar, and you have time. It is the Barcelona Cybersecurity Congress. It is necessary. You need to up your cybersecurity game. You're connected. You need to make sure that you're protected right here. This event, Barcelona Cybersecurity Congress. It is november 3 through the fifth. You have time, november 3 through the fifth this year in Barcelona. And I'm telling you right now, the team at Fara who put this particular Congress on the best. You will not be disappointed. And you know what else you get to do? You get to network with some of the best cybersecurity professionals from around the world. You need to do this. You need to put this one on your calendar. All of the contact, all of the information is out on Industrial Talk. I'm going to be there. I'm going to be broadcasting. I'm going to be talking cybersecurity with the best in the world. So be there. Put this one on your calendar. That is november 3 through the fifth. I'll see you there. All right. That's that is a Martine. Grooten, Grooten. I do the best I can, but really nice guy. Knows his stuff. Great report. You need to know about it. All the contact, all the report stuff. Everything is out on industrial talk, so fear not. That was a stellar conversation. And again, we need to have more conversations around cybersecurity. That's why I, me, Scott, broadcasting from the Barcelona Cybersecurity Congress. Yep, you too need to have your business well protected. You want to live this beautiful future of connected assets and everything associated with that, yep, you need to make sure that your business is well protected, and you want to be able to do it efficiently. So you go to the Barcelona Cybersecurity Congress, and you just walk around and have conversations, say, and come up with a solution that meets your business needs. It's all there, Martine. You hang out with him, you're going to change the world. We're going to have another wonderful conversation shortly, so stay tuned.