Artwork for podcast The Industrial Talk Podcast with Scott MacKenzie
Ann Dunkin, CIO US Department of Energy
20th July 2022 • The Industrial Talk Podcast with Scott MacKenzie • The Industrial Talk Podcast with Scott MacKenzie
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On this week's Industrial Talk we're talking to Ann Dunkin, CTO of US Department of Energy about "How the DOE is assisting in the digital transformation of the Energy and Utility markets".  Get the answers to your "Energy Transition" questions along with Ann's unique insight on the “How” on this Industrial Talk interview! Finally, get your exclusive free access to the Industrial Academy and a series on “Why You Need To Podcast” for Greater Success in 2022. All links designed for keeping you current in this rapidly changing Industrial Market. Learn! Grow! Enjoy!

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PODCAST TRANSCRIPT:

SUMMARY KEYWORDS grid, power, DOE, industrial, doe, conversation, charging, digital transformation, manage, latency, assets, security, energy, people, tx, utility, iot, part, complexity, chief information officer 00:00 Industrial Talk is brought to you by TXOne now you know cybersecurity is important if you're on this digital transformation journey, TX One networks has the solutions for you. And you're saying to yourself, Scott, they're going to be complex, they're going to be difficult. No TXOne's taken that into consideration. And they provide a suite of solutions that truly meet your cybersecurity needs go out to TX, one dash networks.com and find out more, you're not going to be disappointed. Also industry IoT Consortium. At Industrial Talk, we always talk about education, we always talk about collaboration, we are always talking about innovation. And if you're a business that has any desire to be resilient to the future, you need to be able to educate, collaborate, as well as innovate with other industry professionals. That's a must. Industry IoT Consortium brings that all together, you need to be a part of this community, you need to be connected with these leaders that are all apart the industry IoT consortium, go out to ai consortium.org. Find out more, again, you will not be disappointed, you're just going to be happy on this episode of Industrial Talk live. Ann Duncan is in the hot seat. She is the Chief Information Officer at the US Department of Energy, and also the Digital Transformation Lead. And we're going to be talking about utility, digital transformation that market, it's an incredible conversation that you need to be aware of also events that I will be broadcasting on site. So put those on your calendars, we're going to be talking about those, and how to get involved with this ever expanding ecosystem called Industrial Talk. Let's get cracking. 01:56 Hey there and thank you very much for joining Industrial Talk the ever-expanding industrial ecosystem of leaders and problem solvers, making our lives better, you need to be a part of the Industrial Talk ecosystem. It's fun because you know why we are dedicated to education? Yes, check. We are also dedicated to collaborating because we don't have all the answers, you don't have all the answers, but you need to collaborate with trusted professionals. And finally, innovate, we also have to innovate, we also have to continue to push that envelope and digital transformation is definitely a conversation that is always being discussed on Industrial Talk. So get involved. All right, we've got a couple of things that I want to make sure that we get out. First one, I talked about some events that if you want to be if you have a desire to be interviewed on Industrial Talk, we have a great time, we're going to be at a couple of events. And if they're on your calendar, that's great. If they're not put them on your calendar, the first one that I want to be able to put on your calendar that we're going to be at is at MWC. That's M WC. And it is September 28, through the 30th. And if you have any, if you're gonna go there, and you're gonna see me, let's coordinate and let's schedule a time for us to have a conversation on site. It's a lot of fun. The other one that we're going to be at is IMTS at a September 12, through the 17th. Again, if you're going to be there, look up Industrial Talk, let's get you on the calendar, and let's get a conversation rolling. The next one that I want to make sure that you have out there, this is pretty cool. This one is the 13th American manufacturing strategy Summit. It is also October 11 through the 12th. And it is in Houston, Texas. Look at it go out to it, and you're gonna have all the information out on Industrial Talks, all the links are out there. But consider because we got to be about the collaboration, we've got to be about that education, bringing it all together. These are great venues to be able to do it. And finally, we're gonna do it again. We're going to be at IoT solutions World Congress, Barcelona is the town it is I'm telling you had a great time this last go around. And in fact, I was going to have a conversation with and Duncan who is going to be on this particular interview. And I had some technical issues but the IoT solutions World Congress, Barcelona January 31 through February 2. If you find yourself there, you got to look me up because we have such a fabulous time. And uh, speaking of that, if you have a desire to be on the podcast, or be a part of this ecosystem, just go out to Industrial Talk.com Find out more easy peasy. You'll talk to me and Industrial Talk is a platform that is truly dedicated to the education within the industrial area. The collaboration bringing professionals together who have answers and who are looking for answers. And of course innovation because that's what we're all talking about. All right on to the conversation. And Duncan, once again, I was going to speak with her at the IoT solutions World Congress this past year. And unfortunately, I had technical question, but our difficulties, but she's been very good. And one of the things that I find so amazing, so interesting, is digital transformation within the utility, market space, the energy and how that has happened distributive energy, what are we doing, being an old utility guy, I sort of look at it a certain way, these companies, and Duncan and team at the Department of Energy, they look at it, and they're working with other companies that are trying to help transition into this, whatever this future looks like. It's bright, but it's got a lot of unique challenges that smart people are really focused in on. So this is a great conversation. So this is a note and, and paper note up. Conversation. Alright, let's get cracking. And welcome to Industrial Talk. Thank you very much for finding time in your busy schedule. Because listeners, I had a technical issues when we were at IoT solutions World Congress, it was embarrassing. But Anne was so gracious and made me feel okay about it. And thank you, man. 06:26 Thanks, Scott, it's great to finally get a chance to talk. 06:29 Yeah, I'm pretty. I'm pretty geeked out about this whole conversation around industrial IoT, and then some and digitization and digital transformation and everything in between. It's an exciting time, specifically within industry. It's exciting, and a little nerve wracking, because I don't know, I need people to help me understand the journey. But that's where you come in, and all that good stuff. Before we get into the conversation, I think we need to level set a little bit about who and is for the listeners. So give us a little background. And 07:02 so Scott, thanks for having me again. So I am the Chief Information Officer, that part of energy, previously was the Chief Information Officer for EPA, during the Obama administration, left with Santa Clara County was CIO there, and went to Dell, and then was invited to by the transition team to work really hard for free for a while. And after that, I went back to administration, because I was actually having a lot of fun, working really hard for free. So I decided to come back and get paid a little bit to do the work. Well, I 07:39 liked that. And I guarantee that she's got her fingers on the pulse of technology and innovation that has taken place, specifically around energy, which is really important. And I don't think and this is my point of view, I think me as a consumer of power energy. I take it for granted that I flip on my light switch. And there it is, man. And I'm pretty. I'm pretty binary. It doesn't work. It works. And and that's sort of it, but we're venturing into an interesting world, I still think we're at the tip of the iceberg. You are speaking at the industrial Internet, no IoT solutions. To many of those buzzwords rolling around IoT solutions, World Congress, Barcelona, that's where we met. And you were a keynote speaker. What was that topic? 08:29 So Scott, I'm gonna read the topic because it's a little because it's lengthy. So the topic was leveraging innovative technologies that doe to drive energy transition, security, and research goals. 08:42 So why what? What were the salient points of that conversation? Because you pop up I, I know that when I have conversations, it's all great digital transformation is great. from an energy perspective, it's completely different than manufacturing. And, and one of the points of course, she brought up security, cyber, all of that stuff. Why was that topic important for DOD? 09:08 Yeah, so So let me give you a little background, do we I told you who I am, we say DoD is because a lot of people don't realize it. So DOE has a bunch of missions, but I'm going to sort of tell you the three major areas I would describe them up number one is nuclear Non Proliferation and security. So we do everything in the nuclear space from you know, the all the the international work to the cleanup of the Manhattan Project to making the actual propulsion for nuclear submarines and managing our weapons stockpile. So we do all that. Secondly, 09:51 that's number one. My ears bleeding and my nose is bleeding to Holy cow. Okay, go to number two better not just pointless. 10:01 Number two is I hope this doesn't disappoint. This is the one that you think of probably a lot is the grid and power. So we we sell bulk power that is generated by other parts of the government to take the companies that then sell you power. So we, you know, we manage a lot of the hydroelectric dams on the west coast, but also power over most of the country, a lot of that power actually goes through and is sold by DOD into the bulk power market. And we also manage the grid, we ensure that most of the grid in the country, the part that's interconnected, most of that is under our authority to make sure it's actually up and running. So that's number two, kind of an important thing. 10:45 Holy moly. 10:47 And then number three is that DOD is basically the engine for innovation in this country. From a technology standpoint, we run 70 national labs that do everything from classified research, supporting our nuclear energy program, to open science working with scientists around the world. So we work on big problems, you know, like a Stanford Linear Accelerator is part of DOD, the NIF, which if you heard about the project at Lawrence Livermore, that just managed to create a small fusion reaction, right? That was a DOD lab. So we do all that stuff. We do work in 5g, we do work in, in cyber defense, pretty much if there's an area of technology that people are working on, it's probably happening at DOD, and a lot of the research that's done for other parts of the government, like you hear DoD doing research, a lot of times they're doing the DoD labs. So we run the vast majority of the science research, basic science and engineering research that happens in this country. 11:49 Quite speechless, which is really unusual for me, because that is an absolutely spectacular summary of DOE that I did not know. And I guarantee, you know, clearly, all I was listening, number two, great and power, both power and all that stuff. So do we, outside of hydro owns other assets, generation assets that they will and or how does that work? 12:20 So most of this generation, generation assets are run by somebody else in the in the, in the government, and then we sell the power. So, but there are some of them, where we actually own the assets, but but it's primarily hydroelectric. But there's also other types of energy being generated, you know, throughout the network that we then turn around and sell for, for the government. 12:42 I'm not going to venture into number one, because I'd be woefully woefully inadequate. And I would be asking stupid questions, I will venture into number two and number three, when we start talking about innovation, when we start talking about digital transformation, and of course, many of the conferences that we go to, that's really it, how do we leverage innovation, technology, this digital world that we're venturing into to optimize our manufacturing process, our grid, which, quite frankly, and I don't know, I'm sort of old school when it comes to grid, where we got power transmission substations, and it's pretty linear. And here we are talking about, you know, distributed energy distributed side of the meter. And for me, it's like, okay, well, that's a, it's gonna happen, but I don't know, how do you work in concert with a private industry to say, okay, hey, we need, it's got to be collaborative, you can't just be doing this in a vacuum. 13:51 Right? So one of these jobs is private sector energy security. So I actually, and it's a broken up role. So my role I'm responsible for energy sector security, for the stuff that doe owns, that the government owns. There's my avid counterpart, who's responsible for security for private sector power. So they work with the private sector to ensure that they have secured their, their their assets and that they are able to securely generate power as well. So, you know, in terms of, but But certainly, we all work together in terms of trying to find the best technologies and solutions and ensure data and make the grid more effective and more secure. But it's still we together works with our stuff, and the private sector to ensure that we have a seamless power grid and its power. So we measure electricity, we also are the sector, sector, specific agency for gas as well. So we run Another thing we do is we run the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, as well responsible for, you know, oil and gas, from a security standpoint and from supporting the sector. And then you know, there are other sectors, EPA is, for example, is responsible for water. But obviously, you know, being responsible for electricity, oil and gas is a pretty substantial amount of responsibility for doe. 15:23 See, I don't know how Yeah, this is like grabbing a tiger by the tail, because there's so much change that's taking place, I would imagine. I would even say just, let's say 10 years ago, completely different than it is today. And the way you approach that sort of that network has changed dramatically. And how does how does the deal we outside of the labs and all of the other stuff? Just manage that? How do you how do you prioritize? I would imagine critical infrastructure, you better secure it, we don't want that. We don't want things happen in there. Okay, I got that. Then how do you sort of, I mean, there's so much going on. I don't know how you do that. Just there it is. 16:07 Well, yeah. And I think Scott's The thing is that, so we have four power administration's that each are responsible for section of the country. And they're responsible for ensuring that security and resilience. And you know, we've really upped our focus on OT, right. So that's why we're having this conversation. Operational technologies have been an afterthought in security for a long time. You know, we have giant transformers, we have other things that the labs that are big and complicated, but just in the power grid is huge transformers and other assets, we have to, we have to worry about not only keeping those up, and operational and secure, we have to worry about things like timing of the grid, right? So if you don't have good timing, the...

Transcripts

00:00

Industrial Talk is brought to you by TXOne now you know cybersecurity is important if you're on this digital transformation journey, TX One networks has the solutions for you. And you're saying to yourself, Scott, they're going to be complex, they're going to be difficult. No TXOne's taken that into consideration. And they provide a suite of solutions that truly meet your cybersecurity needs go out to TX, one dash networks.com and find out more, you're not going to be disappointed. Also industry IoT Consortium. At Industrial Talk, we always talk about education, we always talk about collaboration, we are always talking about innovation. And if you're a business that has any desire to be resilient to the future, you need to be able to educate, collaborate, as well as innovate with other industry professionals. That's a must. Industry IoT Consortium brings that all together, you need to be a part of this community, you need to be connected with these leaders that are all apart the industry IoT consortium, go out to ai consortium.org. Find out more, again, you will not be disappointed, you're just going to be happy on this episode of Industrial Talk live. Ann Duncan is in the hot seat. She is the Chief Information Officer at the US Department of Energy, and also the Digital Transformation Lead. And we're going to be talking about utility, digital transformation that market, it's an incredible conversation that you need to be aware of also events that I will be broadcasting on site. So put those on your calendars, we're going to be talking about those, and how to get involved with this ever expanding ecosystem called Industrial Talk. Let's get cracking.

01:56

Hey there and thank you very much for joining Industrial Talk the ever-expanding industrial ecosystem of leaders and problem solvers, making our lives better, you need to be a part of the Industrial Talk ecosystem. It's fun because you know why we are dedicated to education? Yes, check. We are also dedicated to collaborating because we don't have all the answers, you don't have all the answers, but you need to collaborate with trusted professionals. And finally, innovate, we also have to innovate, we also have to continue to push that envelope and digital transformation is definitely a conversation that is always being discussed on Industrial Talk. So get involved. All right, we've got a couple of things that I want to make sure that we get out. First one, I talked about some events that if you want to be if you have a desire to be interviewed on Industrial Talk, we have a great time, we're going to be at a couple of events. And if they're on your calendar, that's great. If they're not put them on your calendar, the first one that I want to be able to put on your calendar that we're going to be at is at MWC. That's M WC. And it is September 28, through the 30th. And if you have any, if you're gonna go there, and you're gonna see me, let's coordinate and let's schedule a time for us to have a conversation on site. It's a lot of fun. The other one that we're going to be at is IMTS at a September 12, through the 17th. Again, if you're going to be there, look up Industrial Talk, let's get you on the calendar, and let's get a conversation rolling. The next one that I want to make sure that you have out there, this is pretty cool. This one is the 13th American manufacturing strategy Summit. It is also October 11 through the 12th. And it is in Houston, Texas. Look at it go out to it, and you're gonna have all the information out on Industrial Talks, all the links are out there. But consider because we got to be about the collaboration, we've got to be about that education, bringing it all together. These are great venues to be able to do it. And finally, we're gonna do it again. We're going to be at IoT solutions World Congress, Barcelona is the town it is I'm telling you had a great time this last go around. And in fact, I was going to have a conversation with and Duncan who is going to be on this particular interview. And I had some technical issues but the IoT solutions World Congress, Barcelona January 31 through February 2. If you find yourself there, you got to look me up because we have such a fabulous time. And uh, speaking of that, if you have a desire to be on the podcast, or be a part of this ecosystem, just go out to Industrial Talk.com Find out more easy peasy. You'll talk to me and Industrial Talk is a platform that is truly dedicated to the education within the industrial area. The collaboration bringing professionals together who have answers and who are looking for answers. And of course innovation because that's what we're all talking about. All right on to the conversation. And Duncan, once again, I was going to speak with her at the IoT solutions World Congress this past year. And unfortunately, I had technical question, but our difficulties, but she's been very good. And one of the things that I find so amazing, so interesting, is digital transformation within the utility, market space, the energy and how that has happened distributive energy, what are we doing, being an old utility guy, I sort of look at it a certain way, these companies, and Duncan and team at the Department of Energy, they look at it, and they're working with other companies that are trying to help transition into this, whatever this future looks like. It's bright, but it's got a lot of unique challenges that smart people are really focused in on. So this is a great conversation. So this is a note and, and paper note up. Conversation. Alright, let's get cracking. And welcome to Industrial Talk. Thank you very much for finding time in your busy schedule. Because listeners, I had a technical issues when we were at IoT solutions World Congress, it was embarrassing. But Anne was so gracious and made me feel okay about it. And thank you, man.

06:26

Thanks, Scott, it's great to finally get a chance to talk.

06:29

Yeah, I'm pretty. I'm pretty geeked out about this whole conversation around industrial IoT, and then some and digitization and digital transformation and everything in between. It's an exciting time, specifically within industry. It's exciting, and a little nerve wracking, because I don't know, I need people to help me understand the journey. But that's where you come in, and all that good stuff. Before we get into the conversation, I think we need to level set a little bit about who and is for the listeners. So give us a little background. And

07:02

so Scott, thanks for having me again. So I am the Chief Information Officer, that part of energy, previously was the Chief Information Officer for EPA, during the Obama administration, left with Santa Clara County was CIO there, and went to Dell, and then was invited to by the transition team to work really hard for free for a while. And after that, I went back to administration, because I was actually having a lot of fun, working really hard for free. So I decided to come back and get paid a little bit to do the work. Well, I

07:39

liked that. And I guarantee that she's got her fingers on the pulse of technology and innovation that has taken place, specifically around energy, which is really important. And I don't think and this is my point of view, I think me as a consumer of power energy. I take it for granted that I flip on my light switch. And there it is, man. And I'm pretty. I'm pretty binary. It doesn't work. It works. And and that's sort of it, but we're venturing into an interesting world, I still think we're at the tip of the iceberg. You are speaking at the industrial Internet, no IoT solutions. To many of those buzzwords rolling around IoT solutions, World Congress, Barcelona, that's where we met. And you were a keynote speaker. What was that topic?

08:29

So Scott, I'm gonna read the topic because it's a little because it's lengthy. So the topic was leveraging innovative technologies that doe to drive energy transition, security, and research goals.

08:42

So why what? What were the salient points of that conversation? Because you pop up I, I know that when I have conversations, it's all great digital transformation is great. from an energy perspective, it's completely different than manufacturing. And, and one of the points of course, she brought up security, cyber, all of that stuff. Why was that topic important for DOD?

09:08

Yeah, so So let me give you a little background, do we I told you who I am, we say DoD is because a lot of people don't realize it. So DOE has a bunch of missions, but I'm going to sort of tell you the three major areas I would describe them up number one is nuclear Non Proliferation and security. So we do everything in the nuclear space from you know, the all the the international work to the cleanup of the Manhattan Project to making the actual propulsion for nuclear submarines and managing our weapons stockpile. So we do all that. Secondly,

09:51

that's number one. My ears bleeding and my nose is bleeding to Holy cow. Okay, go to number two better not just pointless.

10:01

Number two is I hope this doesn't disappoint. This is the one that you think of probably a lot is the grid and power. So we we sell bulk power that is generated by other parts of the government to take the companies that then sell you power. So we, you know, we manage a lot of the hydroelectric dams on the west coast, but also power over most of the country, a lot of that power actually goes through and is sold by DOD into the bulk power market. And we also manage the grid, we ensure that most of the grid in the country, the part that's interconnected, most of that is under our authority to make sure it's actually up and running. So that's number two, kind of an important thing.

10:45

Holy moly.

10:47

And then number three is that DOD is basically the engine for innovation in this country. From a technology standpoint, we run 70 national labs that do everything from classified research, supporting our nuclear energy program, to open science working with scientists around the world. So we work on big problems, you know, like a Stanford Linear Accelerator is part of DOD, the NIF, which if you heard about the project at Lawrence Livermore, that just managed to create a small fusion reaction, right? That was a DOD lab. So we do all that stuff. We do work in 5g, we do work in, in cyber defense, pretty much if there's an area of technology that people are working on, it's probably happening at DOD, and a lot of the research that's done for other parts of the government, like you hear DoD doing research, a lot of times they're doing the DoD labs. So we run the vast majority of the science research, basic science and engineering research that happens in this country.

11:49

Quite speechless, which is really unusual for me, because that is an absolutely spectacular summary of DOE that I did not know. And I guarantee, you know, clearly, all I was listening, number two, great and power, both power and all that stuff. So do we, outside of hydro owns other assets, generation assets that they will and or how does that work?

12:20

So most of this generation, generation assets are run by somebody else in the in the, in the government, and then we sell the power. So, but there are some of them, where we actually own the assets, but but it's primarily hydroelectric. But there's also other types of energy being generated, you know, throughout the network that we then turn around and sell for, for the government.

12:42

I'm not going to venture into number one, because I'd be woefully woefully inadequate. And I would be asking stupid questions, I will venture into number two and number three, when we start talking about innovation, when we start talking about digital transformation, and of course, many of the conferences that we go to, that's really it, how do we leverage innovation, technology, this digital world that we're venturing into to optimize our manufacturing process, our grid, which, quite frankly, and I don't know, I'm sort of old school when it comes to grid, where we got power transmission substations, and it's pretty linear. And here we are talking about, you know, distributed energy distributed side of the meter. And for me, it's like, okay, well, that's a, it's gonna happen, but I don't know, how do you work in concert with a private industry to say, okay, hey, we need, it's got to be collaborative, you can't just be doing this in a vacuum.

13:51

Right? So one of these jobs is private sector energy security. So I actually, and it's a broken up role. So my role I'm responsible for energy sector security, for the stuff that doe owns, that the government owns. There's my avid counterpart, who's responsible for security for private sector power. So they work with the private sector to ensure that they have secured their, their their assets and that they are able to securely generate power as well. So, you know, in terms of, but But certainly, we all work together in terms of trying to find the best technologies and solutions and ensure data and make the grid more effective and more secure. But it's still we together works with our stuff, and the private sector to ensure that we have a seamless power grid and its power. So we measure electricity, we also are the sector, sector, specific agency for gas as well. So we run Another thing we do is we run the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, as well responsible for, you know, oil and gas, from a security standpoint and from supporting the sector. And then you know, there are other sectors, EPA is, for example, is responsible for water. But obviously, you know, being responsible for electricity, oil and gas is a pretty substantial amount of responsibility for doe.

15:23

See, I don't know how Yeah, this is like grabbing a tiger by the tail, because there's so much change that's taking place, I would imagine. I would even say just, let's say 10 years ago, completely different than it is today. And the way you approach that sort of that network has changed dramatically. And how does how does the deal we outside of the labs and all of the other stuff? Just manage that? How do you how do you prioritize? I would imagine critical infrastructure, you better secure it, we don't want that. We don't want things happen in there. Okay, I got that. Then how do you sort of, I mean, there's so much going on. I don't know how you do that. Just there it is.

16:07

Well, yeah. And I think Scott's The thing is that, so we have four power administration's that each are responsible for section of the country. And they're responsible for ensuring that security and resilience. And you know, we've really upped our focus on OT, right. So that's why we're having this conversation. Operational technologies have been an afterthought in security for a long time. You know, we have giant transformers, we have other things that the labs that are big and complicated, but just in the power grid is huge transformers and other assets, we have to, we have to worry about not only keeping those up, and operational and secure, we have to worry about things like timing of the grid, right? So if you don't have good timing, the grid won't work. So we use GPS timing, which has some challenges. And one of my jobs actually, at DOD is I'm the senior official for Spectrum Management for DOD, because we coordinate spectrum management across the federal government, and we'll look at who uses radio spectrum. Right and and why our interference exists. And one of my jobs is to make sure that we control spectrum so that the grid is not interfered with by other users. Right. So that's another piece another third, or fourth, I don't know how many more

17:35

I don't either. For me, we got to understand the gymnastics that are going through my head, I can't keep I got asked a question there, write it down

17:45

a piece that other pieces that we have to manage, as you you alluded to this, right, we now have a two way group, we have distributed generation and storage. So a grid used to how are used to go one way. Now power goes two ways in that grid, and you'd have to manage that. And you also have to manage all of these potential entry points for cyber actors, right? instead of there being one big point. Now, you know, I have my house in California has solar, it has batteries, right? So it's got, you know, my, my batteries and my solar are connected to Wi Fi to into my, into the house, and then to the power company, right. So there's opportunities there for bad actors. But also, the grid has to be able to take back the energy I generate, right when I generate it, and it has to be able to manage the situation where the grid goes down, and I'm still generating power and make sure I'm not feeding energy back into a grid, and potentially hurting somebody who's trying to fix a power line. Um, you know, there's also the issue of, of smart meters, right? Those are wireless, you got to be able to protect those smart meters to ensure that no one can get in the grid that way. So the complexity is just through the roof.

18:59

It's through the roof, that that's every time I have this conversation. And it's the same thing I walk away with, oh my gosh, I don't know where to go. I don't know what steps Oh, I I see a problem there. And you know what's interesting? I used to be an old crotchety, journeyman transmission lineman. So when you start talking about power outages, and we even we even had issues where people would zip the, the power through. And as the Transformers The transformer goes one way, it will step it up. And it's people don't realize that, but And you brought up another interesting point. Is that timing. It is its timing, this, this grid is on time, you can't just be out and sinker on a timeframe. I don't know from a system operators perspective. It's, it's only doable by digitization. There's no way because the old school way was like I've got these generations In assets, I got this demand, I'm watching it. And I'm meet meeting demand and supply. And I'm doing it physically. And now there's no way there's no way. Yeah, you get upside down and flip around. It's like, so why is this digital transformation, the impact energy, your innovation and what you guys are focused on? Why is it important?

20:22

Well, you hit on it right. So the piece around the grid, it's important because we want to make sure that we can provide reliable power. So it means that from a digital transformation standpoint, we have to change the way we're operating the grid, to ensure we can keep up with the complexity. You know, we're now looking at, can we actually do our IoT, our OT, our operational technology stuff in the cloud, right? Can we do that work for the power grid in the cloud safely and securely, and have more resilience in that way. So, you know, we've got to find ways to make it easier to operate the grid. Because as it gets more complex to your point, we the individuals who may who used to look at computer screens, or even manual dials, you know, and, and make adjustments aren't going to be able to keep up with the complexity, right? If I've got millions of endpoints coming into, you know, if I'm selling Southern California, Edison, millions and millions of endpoints out there, I've got smart meters, I've got rooftop generation, I've got batteries, I've got all my enterprise assets, which now include storage assets, and generation assets of all different types, and I gotta balance the grid, there's no way I can do that manually. So you've got to digitize that. And you've got to simplify it. And you're gonna be using a, you know, you're gonna be using AI and machine learning to make those adjustments because you simple human being can no longer do it.

21:54

The the, you brought up an interesting component of, Can we can we place this this, this complexity in the cloud? And I agree with you, 100%? Are there any concerns with this digital transformation and latency? Because that's another conversation that people are having to say, I get it in the cloud, but even that little, whatever latency between that and versus, versus the timing on the grid, and keep it going? How do how do we address that?

22:23

ou know, for hundreds, if not:

23:35

either way, because you've got a dispersed asset base in every utility, every service territory, it's, it's not confined by four walls. It's, it's out there, man. And it's going for miles and miles and miles. So it's, it's stunning. So when we start talking about renewables, net 01 of the challenges that I see one of the challenge is, and I get it, there's a lot more EVs out there, right? There just are. It's, it's, it's, it's a scientific factor out there. And they're plugging into the grid. And they're plugging in at the grid. Pretty fast. And yet, grid maintenance grid improvements. That's not a that's not a fast thing. And so I see a disconnect between the speed at which these innovative solutions are attaching themselves to the grid and our ability to be able to say, oh, yeah, there's that and how do we address that? What what are some of the solutions around that?

24:49

Yeah, so that is an interesting problem. I mean, I certainly want to see Evie adoption move faster. That's one of our goals. The department is Evie adoption, and I'm working with DOD to improve the Evie charging infrastructure in this country. You know, I personally I was I was laughing I got home from, I had some house guests who came last night before I got home from my trip. And I, you know, here's the IoT, I opened the garage for them from my phone while I was sitting on an airplane and a gate, right? And they grabbed me, right, because I'd left them keys in the garage and they walked in. So yep, we're in we must be in the right garage. I see a Tesla.

25:25

Yeah, that's cool.

25:27

So you know, I mean, my Tesla sits in my garage and charges at 20 miles an hour, right? Not very fast. And, and, you know, in California, I was charging it off of my own generated power. Here, I'm not because I haven't had a chance to get some panels on this house. But you know, part of it is, the more that we can add that distributed generation capacity to match those vehicles. Right, the more that they become less of a burden on the system. And most of them do charge. At that rate. Most of them most people have a level two charger in their house, if they've got an Eevee. And they're charging at 20 miles an hour, then you got the fast chargers out there. Right. And I think that, you know, the the fast chargers are more of a challenge, although I know that Tesla, some of the other providers are starting to add solar, to their charging stations. So they're adding some generation capacity at that charging station as well. Now there, they probably aren't matching, and I don't know this perfect, I guess it'd be we're not matching their demand and supply, but they're at least adding to the supply. So I think, you know, the reality is, is, to me, distributed generations can solve a lot of these problems, the more we can put rooftop solar, local wind, wherever that is to distribute the demands on the grid, distribute this plan on the grid to match the demands on the grid, that's going to help. But otherwise, it's going to be a transition, right? It's gonna be, it's gonna be a transition to get more power on the grid at the right times for the right devices. And the other key is to get these devices mostly charging these cars, mostly charging an off hours, right, you can program the car to charge in the middle of the night. So if you're charging your garage, you're going to choose to charge at midnight anyway, because you're gonna pay less for power. And so that we can manage the demand on the grid, there's also going to be a future where you're going to be able to at peak time be able to pull, pull charge back out of those vehicles, and bring it back into the grid. So the goal was supposed vehicles to become part of the grid infrastructure as well.

27:30

To me is like, Okay, I said, and be able to manage that, like, here's the point. Here's the point, here's, here are 10,000 in this area, that year, as a system operator, I'm going alright, let's start pulling it up. They're all plugged in. Oh, that one's not plugged in. And I see it. I just,

27:49

well, yeah, good operator has a grid operator has just be able to send a command that says, Okay, I want to pull charge from cars and have and have the systems go, okay, my car is not going to contribute, right? Because you can't possibly possibly manage each individual device.

28:05

And I want everybody to be successful. I just think that it's it's imperative, it's going to happen if you're in manufacturing, whether you like it or not. And you're saying, I don't want to be a part of this digital transformation? Well, your competition is, and you need to consider it and dip your toes in it, because there are a lot of good people out there willing to help you. And that goes with the utility. Now, being an old utility guy. I know you have service territories, all across the country and around the world. But we're talking here. And so every utility has a different journey, right? Every small, mid large, you know, invested or whatever it might be. That's a whole nother level of complexity, because I might not be there. I haven't. I'm over here, and I'm just trying to do this. I just think that it's a heck of a job you have and

29:00

it's a lot of fun. We get to cool stuff. For sure.

29:02

Yeah, you get to cool, do cool stuff. We're gonna have to wrap it up. That's our time. How do people get a hold of you? They're saying, Gosh, can't Can I a utility just contacted doe? Can I just like, hey, I need help.

29:16

Well, most of the utilities already know how to get ahold of us. They work with different parts the organization but they are more than welcome to my doe account on Twitter, send us a note to send an email over to Dewey. We'll be happy to connect them with resources they don't have but we try very hard to be connected to those folks in the energy sector. So

29:38

that's, that's your role. You're you're connecting you better be connected. Well, anyway, you were absolutely spectacular. Thank you for saying yes, man.

29:47

This was a lot of fun. Thanks, guys. Great. I

29:49

can definitely could geek out much longer but you know, I've got to think about the summit. You know, maybe I There's three of us that get really geek out on it up and so now it's down to two All right listeners, we're not we're gonna have all the contact information for an out on Industrial Talk.com. Thank you very much for joining in. Thank you, Scott. All right, listeners, we're gonna wrap it up on the other side. So stay tuned, we will be right back. You're listening to the Industrial Talk Podcast Network. All right, thank you very much for joining Industrial Talk live it it was a great pleasure. Absolutely. Thank you, too, and Duncan as well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation, reach out to her. All her contact information will be out at Industrial Talk.com. So fear not reach out, get the information that you need. To help you be successful going forward. A lot of changes are happening, being led by and in team, D O E, as well as many other companies, you need to be a part of that. So do not fear them, you need to reach out. All right, again, we're gonna have all the places that we're going to be on site. Reach out to me, schedule your time. If you're going to be at these conferences. It'd be great to meet you. Easy peasy, Scott. Just want to talk to you. Make it happen because it is a lot of fun and talk about what you are doing there at the event. Important. All right. Be bold, be brave, daring greatly. We're gonna have another great conversation shortly. So stay tuned and be a part of the ecosystem.