Shownotes
All About the Brand vs. Wild Concept
What does “wild” mean in the world today? [3:51] New vs. old success principles [5:36] Predictable human reactions to disruption. [6:16] Kodak – A disruption example [8:20] Blockbuster’s path to irrelevance [12:14]Business Building Insights
Fear and how it affects us [9:03] Watch your numbers to see if you’re losing relevancy [9:46] Stop – Think – Observe – Plan [11:28] Ways you can stay relevant [13:08] The value of podcasts [16:30] Embrace ambiguity. It leads to opportunity. [17:46] 3 Steps to taking action in the “wild” [20:28] The nimble advantage of the small business owner [23:20] The kind truth [31:43]Success Trait
Connecting the dots allows Jonathan to see how everything fits together. [28:04] Listening [28:57]Productivity/Lifestyle Tool
Google Surveys – get fast, reliable insights from consumers online iphone and MacBook AirRecommended Reading and Listening
Getting Naked by Patrick Lencioni
Brand vs. Wild by Jonathan David Lewis [25:30]
Contact Links
Website Facebook Instagram Twitter LinkedIn YouTubeIf you found value in this podcast, make sure to subscribe and leave a review in Apple Podcasts or Google Podcasts. That helps us spread the word to more makers just like you. Thanks! Sue
Transcripts
Hi there.
Speaker:This is gift biz on rap episode 110 Fundamentally artists I
Speaker:think are a little more comfortable with ambiguity,
Speaker:and that does give you an advantage in today's new world.
Speaker:Hi, this is John Lee Dumas of entrepreneur on fire,
Speaker:and you're listening to unwrap and now it's time to light
Speaker:it up.
Speaker:Welcome Nick gift biz,
Speaker:unwrapped your source for industry specific insights and advice to develop
Speaker:and grow your business.
Speaker:And now here's your host Sue Mona height.
Speaker:Hi there.
Speaker:It's Sue and welcome back to the gift biz unwrap podcast,
Speaker:whether you own a brick and mortar shop sell online or
Speaker:are just getting started,
Speaker:you'll discover new insight to gain traction and to grow your
Speaker:business today.
Speaker:I have the pleasure of introducing you to Jonathan David Lewis.
Speaker:Johnathan is the author of a brand vs wild building resilient
Speaker:brands for harsh business environments.
Speaker:He is an engaging and authoritative speaker on shaping a brand
Speaker:that can survive and thrive in today's often serve as partner
Speaker:and strategy director at McKee Wallwork and company.
Speaker:Jonathan led this park to be recognized by industry purveyor,
Speaker:advertise Nate as a national leader in branding and marketing.
Speaker:They are also named the Southwest small agency of the year
Speaker:and received a national B to B campaign of the year
Speaker:and the national best places to work.
Speaker:They have a lot going on.
Speaker:I am so excited to share with you a topic that
Speaker:I think is really,
Speaker:really going to be important for all of us.
Speaker:So we're going to get right into it.
Speaker:And Jonathan,
Speaker:welcome to the show.
Speaker:Thanks Sue.
Speaker:Happy to be here.
Speaker:I start off in a little bit of a different way
Speaker:because most of our listeners are artisans of one sort or
Speaker:another. So if you would describe yourself as a motivational candle,
Speaker:what would resonate with you in terms of a candle with
Speaker:a color and a quote,
Speaker:A color and a quote?
Speaker:That's a very interesting question.
Speaker:Let's see color.
Speaker:I would have to say the color of the candle would
Speaker:be blue and that actually goes back a few years.
Speaker:A number of years ago.
Speaker:I didn't think it mattered much how I dressed.
Speaker:I met some people that really taught me a lot about
Speaker:style and a lot about how to present myself and really
Speaker:taught me that how you dress is even more than about
Speaker:you. It's about respecting others.
Speaker:And during that time I created a color palette for myself
Speaker:and blue was the main color.
Speaker:So I think my candle would be blue.
Speaker:And I think the quote would say give.
Speaker:And the reason I say that is the people in my
Speaker:life has meant a lot and has influenced me a lot
Speaker:is our creative director here at McKee.
Speaker:Wallwork his name's Dave Ortega,
Speaker:a fascinating person,
Speaker:very creative.
Speaker:And he has this really cool thing.
Speaker:He does every year.
Speaker:He picks a word for his year.
Speaker:It kind of sums up what he wants to achieve that
Speaker:year. And so he's done this of course for many years
Speaker:and it inspired me.
Speaker:So this year,
Speaker:my word is give and it's really just something I've learned
Speaker:in life that we're all to get something.
Speaker:But at the end of the day,
Speaker:it's not so much about getting as much as how much
Speaker:you can give in order to get.
Speaker:And I think if you focus on the getting,
Speaker:you get some,
Speaker:but you don't get as much as you can,
Speaker:if you focus on the giving.
Speaker:So my color would be blue and my quote would be
Speaker:give Perfect.
Speaker:And I think this whole concept of giving really resonates with
Speaker:the audience because as artisans,
Speaker:that's a lot of what we're doing.
Speaker:We're creating things that then we are giving.
Speaker:So perfect.
Speaker:We're right in line.
Speaker:We're in sync here today,
Speaker:Jonathan, and I'm guessing you're in a blue suit over there.
Speaker:Maybe I Am in a blue suit.
Speaker:Blue is my main color.
Speaker:All Right,
Speaker:there you go.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:I am so intrigued by the title of your book and
Speaker:specifically the word wild.
Speaker:Give me a feel for how you identify with that word
Speaker:and what that all means.
Speaker:What brand vs wild is all about.
Speaker:Wild sums up this environment.
Speaker:We all find ourselves in.
Speaker:When you look around all of us,
Speaker:when you look at politics,
Speaker:you look at technology,
Speaker:you look at business,
Speaker:the economy and everything is just out of control.
Speaker:It feels like there's so much uncertainty.
Speaker:It's only growing.
Speaker:We don't know what's going to happen tomorrow.
Speaker:The headlines are just insane day after day.
Speaker:And then you add in the new technologies of artificial intelligence
Speaker:and automation,
Speaker:all of this disruption for me,
Speaker:for most of us and certainly for my clients,
Speaker:the environment out there feels wild and it's overwhelming.
Speaker:No one person can keep up with it or completely understand
Speaker:what's going on.
Speaker:So brand vs wild is really all about how do you
Speaker:manage, build a business and a brand in the midst of
Speaker:this incredible situation we find ourselves in that I've called the
Speaker:wild. Yeah,
Speaker:because I think just once you feel like,
Speaker:okay, I've got it all together,
Speaker:things are going well,
Speaker:then something happens.
Speaker:Like you say,
Speaker:it's totally unpredictable.
Speaker:What's going to be around the corner.
Speaker:And that makes us all uncomfortable.
Speaker:That is our reality.
Speaker:So you're talking about helping businesses learn.
Speaker:What do you do about that?
Speaker:This is reality.
Speaker:This is our environment today and moving into the future.
Speaker:How do you work within that reality Completely.
Speaker:And, and you know,
Speaker:it's funny,
Speaker:you see these memes all the time of what technology we
Speaker:were all using five years ago or 10 years ago.
Speaker:And it's incredible how much the world has changed even in,
Speaker:in a short amount of time.
Speaker:And it's only changing quicker and we're seeing it now affecting
Speaker:other areas in other fields in the world around us politics,
Speaker:the Brexit,
Speaker:et cetera.
Speaker:So when you look at the pace of change,
Speaker:you have to really change how you look at business for
Speaker:new principals are required to succeed at business.
Speaker:And something that I think is really important for all business
Speaker:leaders, all business people of any kind it's to understand that
Speaker:the new principles for success are not the same as the
Speaker:old principles of success that many of us have followed for
Speaker:well over a hundred years and Probably had our education and
Speaker:to exactly.
Speaker:And that's one of the challenges with education today is that
Speaker:once you're in there being taught,
Speaker:whatever you're being taught often,
Speaker:it's a few years old.
Speaker:And with the new pace of change,
Speaker:once you graduate,
Speaker:even that current knowledge is going to be outmoded very soon,
Speaker:Right? And now you've worked with brand somewhat similar to who
Speaker:our audience is,
Speaker:but on a big scale,
Speaker:like Lego and Disney,
Speaker:et cetera,
Speaker:what do you do?
Speaker:How do you coach them?
Speaker:And what advice do you have for us?
Speaker:What are the new business rules?
Speaker:I think the first place that we all should start is
Speaker:to understand that there's actually a very predictable reaction to disruption
Speaker:that we all have from a psychological standpoint.
Speaker:And one of the interesting things we found in the book
Speaker:was that there's very little difference between a group of people
Speaker:who crash land on top of a mountain psychologically,
Speaker:and a group of people who are dealing with some sort
Speaker:of disruption in a boardroom.
Speaker:You're going to go through the same process in the same
Speaker:order. And you can get out of that situation in a
Speaker:very similar way as well.
Speaker:So what we discovered is that there are certain things that
Speaker:tend to dislodge companies or make us feel lost.
Speaker:These are the things that disrupt us.
Speaker:So the economy,
Speaker:when the economy is down,
Speaker:we all suffer a competition.
Speaker:When a competition rises or a competitor gets aggressive,
Speaker:we all suffer or just disruption in general,
Speaker:things are disrupting faster and faster.
Speaker:So those things dislodge us,
Speaker:but there are internal things that we all deal with,
Speaker:whether we're working with a partner or a team,
Speaker:or even in ourselves,
Speaker:and these are the things we have control over.
Speaker:And we know now based on the research that led to
Speaker:the book that we all follow a very predictable path.
Speaker:First, what we're dealing with disruption,
Speaker:we become afraid.
Speaker:And often that fear is paralyzing.
Speaker:Then we start to drift as a person and as a
Speaker:company and we lose our focus about what we were all
Speaker:about in the first place.
Speaker:Then we start acting wildly.
Speaker:We look for silver bullet solutions or easy answers.
Speaker:And then finally,
Speaker:and unfortunately,
Speaker:many companies,
Speaker:many people at the end of the day can turn Savage
Speaker:and there can be politics or immoral practices,
Speaker:et cetera,
Speaker:that can arise whenever we are dealing with disruption.
Speaker:So let me ask you a question,
Speaker:hearing you talk through how we,
Speaker:as people go through this being afraid,
Speaker:drifting, et cetera.
Speaker:What about the person who stands his ground?
Speaker:I'm thinking of something where there's a product.
Speaker:The only thing that comes to mind for me right now
Speaker:is an old rotary telephone.
Speaker:What if the maker of old rotary telephone at and T
Speaker:whoever you'd want to say stood their ground?
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:they were just going to say,
Speaker:this is my product.
Speaker:The world was clearly changing.
Speaker:Where does that fall are people sometimes just adamant like they're
Speaker:blinded. They don't even see that things are changing.
Speaker:Exactly. One of the most fascinating case studies is actually Kodak
Speaker:because Kodak who was really this enormous company,
Speaker:they employ hundreds of thousands of people.
Speaker:And we're one of the biggest brands in the world.
Speaker:They actually invented their own disruption.
Speaker:They invented digital photography.
Speaker:They knew that the disruption was coming.
Speaker:They went and filtered this research to look at when the
Speaker:digital photography would start to change their industry and takeover.
Speaker:So they had all the knowledge they needed in the world.
Speaker:They even had the technology itself yet.
Speaker:They still were not able to adapt,
Speaker:to innovate and to change the underpinnings of their company,
Speaker:to deal with this new world.
Speaker:They were paralyzed by the fear of the disruption itself of
Speaker:all this digital photography kind of cannibalizing the film industry that
Speaker:they were on top of the heap.
Speaker:So I think one of the main emotions that we deal
Speaker:with when we're disrupted or we're overwhelmed by this wild is
Speaker:fear and fear.
Speaker:As we all know,
Speaker:it causes the fight flight or freeze response.
Speaker:And often,
Speaker:most of us freeze,
Speaker:we're paralyzed by fear.
Speaker:And we just don't move because we're afraid to move.
Speaker:And in a business sense,
Speaker:if you're paralyzed,
Speaker:if you're frozen,
Speaker:you're going to decline.
Speaker:Businesses have to keep moving.
Speaker:So what would you suggest to our listeners to be watching
Speaker:for in their businesses so that they don't miss it?
Speaker:The world passes them by and they're just stuck.
Speaker:Are there any tips in that end,
Speaker:just acknowledging that the concept exists in the first place,
Speaker:I guess would be one,
Speaker:but is there any other advice that you would offer?
Speaker:Yeah. I mean,
Speaker:I think the numbers speak.
Speaker:So if your numbers are declining,
Speaker:then there can be a variety of things that are wrong,
Speaker:but one of the causes can be that your product just
Speaker:isn't relevant anymore.
Speaker:And that doesn't mean you're not relevant anymore.
Speaker:It just means you may need to rethink your product or
Speaker:how you're going to market.
Speaker:And so listen to the numbers.
Speaker:And if you act like often,
Speaker:many of these big brands have acted when their product has
Speaker:become irrelevant,
Speaker:like Kodak and others,
Speaker:then you're stagnant,
Speaker:you're paralyzed,
Speaker:you're stubborn and you don't adapt,
Speaker:but if you can learn and if you're willing to change
Speaker:how you do things,
Speaker:not necessarily why.
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:we all have a why,
Speaker:and we all have a passion that can stay true.
Speaker:But if you're willing to change how you do things,
Speaker:alter your product,
Speaker:perhaps get it to market in a different way,
Speaker:then you can stay relevant.
Speaker:You can adapt as the world changes,
Speaker:Right? So listening to your numbers,
Speaker:all important for multiple reasons,
Speaker:but that could be the trigger that if your numbers are
Speaker:going down,
Speaker:there's something that you need to change.
Speaker:And I think it's great for our listeners too,
Speaker:because it gives you an idea of how your product can
Speaker:change, which then offers you yet something else you can be
Speaker:presenting to your customers to enhancement of your product or revision
Speaker:of a product.
Speaker:So it's a great way to go back to existing business
Speaker:or existing customers,
Speaker:I should say,
Speaker:and get more business out of the afraid zone.
Speaker:We see that there's something that might need to change.
Speaker:Talk a little bit more about drifting and where we should
Speaker:be going.
Speaker:If we're identifying that possibly our product is becoming irrelevant.
Speaker:The first things that we do as business people when we
Speaker:drift is we actually try to be all things to all
Speaker:people. We've all heard that saying.
Speaker:And when you try to be all things to all people,
Speaker:you're nothing to everybody.
Speaker:And so you've lost your focus in the analogy.
Speaker:If you're in the wilderness,
Speaker:one of the first things you'll learn to do,
Speaker:if you're in the boy,
Speaker:Scouts is you have to stop.
Speaker:And it's an acronym for stop think,
Speaker:observe, and plan.
Speaker:And so the first thing you need to do,
Speaker:if you're lost in the wilderness is stop.
Speaker:And it's the last thing you want to do when you're
Speaker:nervous. When you think something's wrong,
Speaker:you want to jump into action.
Speaker:You want it to go away.
Speaker:You want things to be better.
Speaker:Yeah. And you'll do anything to it better.
Speaker:And so often you start acting wildly,
Speaker:you lose your focus,
Speaker:you start pursuing business.
Speaker:You shouldn't pursue,
Speaker:it's not your original vision or your original passion.
Speaker:So you need to stop and just let yourself breathe for
Speaker:a moment.
Speaker:And then you need to orient yourself to the marketplace.
Speaker:What is the marketplace saying?
Speaker:What does the marketplace want?
Speaker:And something that's interesting.
Speaker:If you look at some of these case studies is an
Speaker:example like blockbuster.
Speaker:When you look at Blockbuster's path to irrelevance,
Speaker:it wasn't that people didn't want entertainment.
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:certainly argue that people wanted more entertainment than ever.
Speaker:The issue for blockbuster was that people wanted entertainment even more.
Speaker:They wanted to in an even more convenient way,
Speaker:when they discovered they didn't have to get in the car
Speaker:and drive to a brick and mortar,
Speaker:then the world changed for everybody.
Speaker:So it wasn't that people didn't want what blockbuster provided.
Speaker:They didn't want it in the way blockbuster provided.
Speaker:So if you can orient yourself to the marketplace,
Speaker:you can begin to become relevant.
Speaker:Again, Let me stop you here for a second.
Speaker:And this is a great example because I think everybody saw
Speaker:the path blockbuster was running down.
Speaker:Everyone could see that their future was going to be that
Speaker:direction unless they changed.
Speaker:But how does someone who has,
Speaker:let's say two or three retail shops,
Speaker:how do you orient to your marketplace?
Speaker:How do you figure that out?
Speaker:If it's not as obvious as a blockbuster,
Speaker:There are so many more resources today than ever before for
Speaker:businesses of all stripes,
Speaker:whether you're a giant national brand or even you own a
Speaker:location or two,
Speaker:there are so many resources that not only provide research and
Speaker:insight into your company,
Speaker:but you can actually for a couple of hundred dollars conduct
Speaker:your own surveys.
Speaker:Now through Google surveys and others,
Speaker:there's these resources that used to be pretty difficult.
Speaker:You'd have to pay thousands to get this information that now
Speaker:as a small business owner or an entrepreneur,
Speaker:you can spend a couple hundred dollars and start testing your
Speaker:theories with the public.
Speaker:So I think the access is there,
Speaker:the knowledge is there it's first and foremost about stopping and
Speaker:listening. What is the marketplace saying to you or finding the
Speaker:resource because it's there find the resource,
Speaker:use the resource,
Speaker:ask the smart questions.
Speaker:What do people want?
Speaker:What are people asking for?
Speaker:Look beneath the wild.
Speaker:Look beneath the noise and look for that signal.
Speaker:Good point.
Speaker:And would you say also Jonathan,
Speaker:that don't just assume that your thoughts are right test,
Speaker:what you're thinking you should be doing with your community before
Speaker:you start going down a path.
Speaker:That's not actually the right path.
Speaker:Absolutely. I think piloting whatever product or new direction that somebody
Speaker:might take is absolutely the wisest thing you can do.
Speaker:Even more than just asking somebody what they think.
Speaker:Creating, create a proof of concept with the smallest amount of
Speaker:investment, create the thing you want to create and see how
Speaker:people react in the real world,
Speaker:which can often be far more interesting and far more informative
Speaker:than just asking somebody if they want something.
Speaker:Right. And don't ask a person,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:is going to give you the answer you want to hear.
Speaker:Exactly. And then say,
Speaker:okay, we're done moving on.
Speaker:Yeah. That's never helpful.
Speaker:You need the cold hard truth when you're the wilderness.
Speaker:Yeah, for Sure.
Speaker:Because any pivot that you do,
Speaker:if it's a product enhancement,
Speaker:adding to your core product line is Jonathan sane,
Speaker:making sure to stay in,
Speaker:focus, stay with your core business,
Speaker:but any of that costs money,
Speaker:both in product development and advertising and just the time put
Speaker:in. So you want to make sure to the extent that
Speaker:you can,
Speaker:that you're creating the right thing,
Speaker:that's going to allow you to pivot and stay relevant Completely.
Speaker:And I think another tactic to stay relevant and to test
Speaker:ideas and to see what's going on out there is to
Speaker:connect with others.
Speaker:And one of the results of the wild of this feeling
Speaker:of being overwhelmed and there's just too much noise out there
Speaker:is, it can be very isolating.
Speaker:Many times.
Speaker:It just feels like you're alone.
Speaker:And I don't know what's going on.
Speaker:I don't have anybody to talk to when in reality,
Speaker:we're all feeling that way and it's okay to feel that
Speaker:way. And it's okay to acknowledge that you feel that way
Speaker:to get out of that,
Speaker:to advance and to adapt and to innovate.
Speaker:You need to connect.
Speaker:You have to be around other innovators,
Speaker:other business,
Speaker:people, other entrepreneurs,
Speaker:other people,
Speaker:of course,
Speaker:that are in your industry or that are experts in your
Speaker:craft, but also experts in other craft.
Speaker:In other industries,
Speaker:you need variety,
Speaker:you need connection.
Speaker:And as you grow your network,
Speaker:as you grow your relationships,
Speaker:you will find that those inputs will make you more creative
Speaker:and allow you to have a real pulse on what's going
Speaker:on. Right.
Speaker:I agree with you.
Speaker:And would you agree that connections can be online connections,
Speaker:just what we're doing here.
Speaker:We're learning different things each week from different industries because we
Speaker:bring in all different types of people and then so important
Speaker:in-person connections to do.
Speaker:So you feel like all of that is required.
Speaker:Absolutely. I mean,
Speaker:I'm a huge fan of podcasts.
Speaker:I listen to podcasts all the time when I'm working out,
Speaker:when I'm driving to work.
Speaker:Whenever I have a free moment,
Speaker:it's usually my preferred method to connect when I'm not in
Speaker:a personal setting.
Speaker:So podcasts are huge.
Speaker:And I think there's something unique about podcasts in that they're
Speaker:very intimate.
Speaker:You're kind of part of this conversation that it's really meaningful.
Speaker:So podcasts,
Speaker:as well as the people in your life,
Speaker:the professional connections you have just grabbing coffee and,
Speaker:and being curious,
Speaker:asking this other professional,
Speaker:what's going on in your world,
Speaker:what's going on in your industry?
Speaker:What challenges are you dealing with?
Speaker:And that kind of goes back to that.
Speaker:The word on the candle,
Speaker:give, be curious.
Speaker:People love to explore themselves their own environment.
Speaker:So be curious,
Speaker:ask them,
Speaker:and then if they need something,
Speaker:be willing to give and you'll find out in the long
Speaker:run, you'll get a lot more if you're willing to give,
Speaker:I totally agree with you 100%.
Speaker:So I want to talk a little bit more about you
Speaker:set up a new product.
Speaker:You start going and connecting with people and it's uncomfortable,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:and a lot of people talk about this,
Speaker:right? Stepping outside your comfort zone,
Speaker:all of that.
Speaker:But I know you are a big fan and believe that
Speaker:that place of ambiguity and being a little uncertain and being
Speaker:a little bit uncomfortable is actually a good thing.
Speaker:Why do you think that It's this whole idea that we're
Speaker:dealing with so much uncertainty and ambiguity in the world around
Speaker:us and just our human nature hates it.
Speaker:Our human nature hates uncertainty.
Speaker:I think we spend the majority of our life trying to
Speaker:reduce or get rid of uncertainty everywhere we go.
Speaker:And the fact of the matter is when you just step
Speaker:back and look at the world we live in not only
Speaker:is uncertainty ever present,
Speaker:it's only growing.
Speaker:And the good news is that if you look around us,
Speaker:there are actually systems that thrive on ambiguity.
Speaker:There are systems that actually don't exist without ambiguity and they're
Speaker:systems like jazz,
Speaker:for instance.
Speaker:And if anybody saw Lala land so wonderful ode to jazz,
Speaker:it's a really fun movie.
Speaker:The thing I took from that is that jazz doesn't exist
Speaker:without ambiguity.
Speaker:In fact,
Speaker:if you want to reduce ambiguity and uncertainty,
Speaker:go listen to an orchestra.
Speaker:But if you want to see a system that is built
Speaker:for today's world,
Speaker:then go listen to a jazz band.
Speaker:As the different musicians are interacting with each other.
Speaker:At one moment,
Speaker:the basis is taking front stage.
Speaker:And the next moment maybe the trumpet takes front stage.
Speaker:They're riffing off of each other's vibe off of the vibe
Speaker:of the audience.
Speaker:They're not using sheet music,
Speaker:they're using their memory.
Speaker:And in many,
Speaker:many ways,
Speaker:this reflects how we have to operate in today's world,
Speaker:where instead of looking at uncertainty and ambiguity as this enemy,
Speaker:as this thing that we have to get rid of,
Speaker:look at it as an opportunity,
Speaker:if you are uncertain and you don't know what's going to
Speaker:happen, it's very,
Speaker:very likely that the next person is uncertain.
Speaker:It doesn't know what's going to happen.
Speaker:And that means there's an opportunity.
Speaker:If you,
Speaker:by connecting by innovating,
Speaker:by piloting ideas and products can get a little bit ahead
Speaker:of the game and figure it out.
Speaker:You can be the winner in this very uncertain environment.
Speaker:So it's not so much this enemy,
Speaker:the scary thing can actually be an opportunity.
Speaker:And that's what I mean by embrace ambiguity,
Speaker:just as a jazz band,
Speaker:embraces ambiguity.
Speaker:I love that example.
Speaker:It's perfect.
Speaker:And I just want to underline what Jonathan's talking about here.
Speaker:We are all coming from the same place because it's innate,
Speaker:I guess,
Speaker:in us as human beings,
Speaker:that we don't like that ambiguity and uncertainty.
Speaker:So recognize that you're not alone in this.
Speaker:Every single person is going through something like this.
Speaker:And the idea of ambiguity,
Speaker:it kind of,
Speaker:the word comes to me.
Speaker:It's a catalyst because it kind of prompts you to be
Speaker:creative and there in lies and opportunity that others might never
Speaker:take advantage of Exactly.
Speaker:When you think about art,
Speaker:when you think about creativity,
Speaker:it really is based on this idea of creating clarity out
Speaker:of ambiguity.
Speaker:So even as an artist,
Speaker:fundamentally artists I think are a little more comfortable with ambiguity
Speaker:and that does give you an advantage in today's new world.
Speaker:Good point.
Speaker:Really good point.
Speaker:So if you were to break this down in maybe three
Speaker:steps, what are three things that you would advise our listeners
Speaker:to look at in this whole realm of why Yourself,
Speaker:if you understand that your reaction to disruption is very predictable,
Speaker:then you can really diagnose where you are.
Speaker:If you look at your company today,
Speaker:are you acting,
Speaker:are you just trying things because you're desperate and don't know
Speaker:what else to do.
Speaker:Have you lost your focus?
Speaker:Did you have an original vision?
Speaker:And now you're way over here and you're not sure what
Speaker:you're doing anymore.
Speaker:Look at yourself,
Speaker:have some self-reflection that's part of the idea of stopping.
Speaker:Think about where you are and where you are in that
Speaker:very predictable response to disruption.
Speaker:Then I would go back to what I said before you
Speaker:need to stop,
Speaker:and then you need to orient yourself to the marketplace.
Speaker:And this is done in a variety of ways.
Speaker:Test your products in real world scenarios,
Speaker:with real customers,
Speaker:you need to get access to those easy resources that are
Speaker:out there to test ideas.
Speaker:And to Google surveys is a great example of that.
Speaker:And then once you've stopped,
Speaker:you've really discovered yourself and you oriented yourself to the marketplace.
Speaker:It's time to do something.
Speaker:And this is another mistake we see a lot in our
Speaker:practice is that when people are afraid and they're dealing with
Speaker:disruption, if they can get past just the feeling of being
Speaker:paralyzed, they'll start talking and reflecting,
Speaker:but it can be another battle to go do something it's
Speaker:a lot easier to keep talking and keep planning.
Speaker:But once you've done that,
Speaker:you need to set aside the plan,
Speaker:put it down and go do something,
Speaker:get into the marketplace,
Speaker:build that thing,
Speaker:test it.
Speaker:And if you're following these pretty simple steps of reflection,
Speaker:orientation, and then doing,
Speaker:and then keep repeating that and be okay with failure,
Speaker:go back to the drawing board and try again.
Speaker:You're going to get ahead.
Speaker:You're going to find something that works and begin to discover
Speaker:what adaption really does mean in the midst of this uncertainty.
Speaker:Beautiful. You have summarized this wonderfully,
Speaker:and I want to expand a little bit on your 0.3,
Speaker:which is do something take action.
Speaker:You Jonathan are working with national large brands.
Speaker:And I would suggest to our listeners that we have such
Speaker:a bigger opportunity.
Speaker:And Jonathan has it much harder convincing some of the larger
Speaker:brands because he has the whole hierarchy.
Speaker:He has to go through to get approval,
Speaker:to spend money,
Speaker:make changes in product marketing,
Speaker:whatever it is.
Speaker:We are so much more nimble as small and medium sized
Speaker:business owners.
Speaker:We either just report to ourself or we run the business
Speaker:and control all the shots.
Speaker:So in terms of being able to be timely,
Speaker:to make changes,
Speaker:just saying yes to making changes is totally in our favor.
Speaker:And that is just a short step away from actually taking
Speaker:action. And that's where all the difference is.
Speaker:I talked about this in my intro to this podcast,
Speaker:like two years ago,
Speaker:what an opportunity we have as small business owners.
Speaker:And we haven't talked about it Jonathan,
Speaker:since just right now.
Speaker:So thank you so much for bringing this up And I
Speaker:don't want to underline that point.
Speaker:So I think that is extremely important,
Speaker:extremely true.
Speaker:And the problem with that truth is that it doesn't feel
Speaker:that way.
Speaker:If you're one of the smaller companies,
Speaker:it feels the wild feels overwhelming and it feels isolating.
Speaker:When in reality,
Speaker:you are completely correct.
Speaker:You have so much more room to innovate and change.
Speaker:And if you look at the innovators,
Speaker:the disruptors in the world right now,
Speaker:they all start small because that enables them to be innovative.
Speaker:And one of the topics I discussed in the book is
Speaker:there's a whole chapter on adaption.
Speaker:I pull from Mark Parker.
Speaker:Who's the CEO of Nike who discusses this concept a lot
Speaker:because he's very,
Speaker:very honest about this.
Speaker:He has recognized that size is actually now a vulnerability,
Speaker:because if you have been successful in the past,
Speaker:then you can start to believe the lie that,
Speaker:that success and the way you did it will make you
Speaker:successful in the future.
Speaker:And that's just not the case anymore.
Speaker:So those of us who do own and operate small businesses,
Speaker:we completely have an advantage.
Speaker:If we can get past this feeling of being overwhelmed and
Speaker:isolated and break out and connect and start to do and
Speaker:start to test our ideas,
Speaker:we really do have the opportunity and the advantage to innovate
Speaker:where a lot of these bigger companies,
Speaker:they're just paralyzed by their size.
Speaker:Absolutely. I totally agree with you there.
Speaker:And I think another concept I've been hearing a lot about
Speaker:lately, I think it came from James Wedmore,
Speaker:but I'm not certain,
Speaker:I'm pretty sure it was James Wedmore.
Speaker:And he talks about what got you to where you are
Speaker:now is not necessarily the same thing.
Speaker:That's going to get you to where you should be in
Speaker:a few years back to your point about having to continually
Speaker:adapt and change.
Speaker:As we're closing this portion out,
Speaker:Jonathan, talk a little bit more about what the golden nuggets
Speaker:are that are inside your book that we haven't addressed here.
Speaker:Because again,
Speaker:this is a topic that I think all of our listeners
Speaker:should really be very aware of.
Speaker:And I'm sure there's some things we haven't covered everything in
Speaker:your book,
Speaker:but just give us a feel for what else is in
Speaker:there so that we can think about taking a further look
Speaker:at it.
Speaker:Certainly. Well,
Speaker:the book is a lot of fun simply because I've taken
Speaker:our 10 years of proprietary research and correlated it with the
Speaker:latest in survival,
Speaker:psychology and looked at all of these fascinating stories of survival.
Speaker:So we have stories of Teddy Roosevelt going down a tributary
Speaker:of the Amazon river or Ernest Shackleton,
Speaker:trying to traverse Antarctica and many,
Speaker:many more.
Speaker:And there are these fascinating stories in that these group of
Speaker:people confront some amazing challenge.
Speaker:They have all this hardship and all of these psychological processes
Speaker:underway and their successes and failures are very much correlated with
Speaker:our own research,
Speaker:into the factors that affect business success and what we see
Speaker:in all the case studies of some of the biggest companies
Speaker:who have faced hardship and made it through like Lego and
Speaker:Marvel and other companies who have faced hardship like blockbuster and
Speaker:Kodak and have declined and really become irrelevant.
Speaker:So it's a fun book that uses all of these real
Speaker:life survival stories.
Speaker:And it pulls from the research to bring it down to
Speaker:practical level.
Speaker:Many people have called it a survival guide for business,
Speaker:just because we take a high level concepts and then bring
Speaker:them down to a practical level,
Speaker:things that you can use,
Speaker:tips that you can use in your everyday business to help
Speaker:you through the wild,
Speaker:this uncertainty we're all dealing with.
Speaker:Perfect. Thank you.
Speaker:You've piqued my curiosity now for sure.
Speaker:And I'm going to challenge now,
Speaker:Jonathan. I can't wait.
Speaker:Oh, okay.
Speaker:Here you go.
Speaker:What has been wild or what has that done for you
Speaker:in your life or in your career?
Speaker:Well, it's interesting.
Speaker:My career has really been made and molded during what I
Speaker:would consider one of the most wild times in recent history
Speaker:for our country and that's through the great recession.
Speaker:So most of my career has really grown dealing with clients
Speaker:and helping clients who don't have very much resource.
Speaker:Their budgets are being slashed.
Speaker:Neurology is changing so much what used to work in the
Speaker:past. Isn't working as effectively now and we're being tasked with
Speaker:doing so much more with so much less.
Speaker:And so I really feel like my whole career has been
Speaker:in the wild and even the company that we built here,
Speaker:McKee Wallwork,
Speaker:we're celebrating 20 years.
Speaker:And when you think about a marketing firm,
Speaker:that's a pretty amazing feat in how much this industry changes.
Speaker:And so the wild is really it's part of this company.
Speaker:It's part of me,
Speaker:it's how we operate.
Speaker:We understand it.
Speaker:And this book brand vs wild is just kind of the
Speaker:natural conclusion of many years of experience and research.
Speaker:That explains how to deal with it.
Speaker:Perfect. All right.
Speaker:Moving on here a little bit.
Speaker:I want to get into our reflection section,
Speaker:which is talking a little bit more about you and how
Speaker:you work your day.
Speaker:We might find some gold nuggets that would also help our
Speaker:listeners. Is there a natural trait that you have,
Speaker:that's helped you overcome the wild,
Speaker:if you will.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:I think one of the natural traits I have is simply
Speaker:connecting dots.
Speaker:There's nothing,
Speaker:super human going on.
Speaker:It is something that comes naturally to me.
Speaker:And whether that's something like reading a book or watching a
Speaker:movie and kind of seeing how it all fits together,
Speaker:all the way to business and economics and seeing how all
Speaker:of these seemingly disparate points of contact and actions and activities
Speaker:really do come together to form some sort of narrative.
Speaker:So connecting the dots has helped me a lot because you
Speaker:know, our company Makua,
Speaker:we actually work with brands who would call themselves stalled,
Speaker:stuck or stale.
Speaker:So they're facing some pretty particular challenge.
Speaker:And often it's a disruption in their industry or a new
Speaker:competitor causing a lot of trouble and figuring out what to
Speaker:do. Isn't easy.
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:it's, it's pretty complicated.
Speaker:You have to really look at a lot of information and
Speaker:find what is the story here?
Speaker:What point are we going to act on?
Speaker:And so connecting the dots has helped me a lot in
Speaker:my career in my life.
Speaker:But I also think that I've been told,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:it's kind of awkward talking about yourself,
Speaker:but I've been told that I do listen before I speak.
Speaker:And I think listening is more important than ever today.
Speaker:There's a lot of people talking.
Speaker:There's a lot of people that are happy to give you
Speaker:their opinion,
Speaker:but there's very,
Speaker:very few that are willing to really just listen.
Speaker:And if you're willing to stop and listen and see what
Speaker:is your customer actually want and kind of peel back the
Speaker:layers of not just what they're saying,
Speaker:but really what their deeper desires are.
Speaker:You can make it a long way.
Speaker:You can use that information to be more creative and to
Speaker:try new products.
Speaker:So I think connecting the dots and listening has helped me
Speaker:lock perfect,
Speaker:Perfect, really valuable information there.
Speaker:Is there a tool like a technological tool or something you
Speaker:are using that you just could not get through your day
Speaker:without Technological tool?
Speaker:I wish I didn't rely on my phone so much.
Speaker:I tell people if they can steal my car before they
Speaker:steal my phone,
Speaker:period, I completely agree with that.
Speaker:What are you using your phone for?
Speaker:Let's go with that.
Speaker:Well, a variety of things.
Speaker:So I'm constantly on email.
Speaker:I'm constantly using it for my calendar.
Speaker:I use Google calendar.
Speaker:I'm constantly using it for my social platforms on four different
Speaker:social platforms.
Speaker:And then I use it for beyond that.
Speaker:It's more consumption.
Speaker:So what's the latest in advertising.
Speaker:What's the latest from wired or fast company.
Speaker:What's the new innovation that I need to be aware of.
Speaker:And when you're traveling,
Speaker:do you still bring a computer or do you rely solely
Speaker:on your phone?
Speaker:Like so many people are starting to do No.
Speaker:I always bring my MacBook air with me.
Speaker:I love it.
Speaker:It's So light.
Speaker:And so portable.
Speaker:I used to carry this five pound giant laptop with me
Speaker:and MacBook air is amazing when I travel.
Speaker:It's kind of,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:I don't like me to wait for my family.
Speaker:I miss my kids.
Speaker:It's not my favorite thing to do on the world,
Speaker:but I do travel quite a bit.
Speaker:And so I do appreciate those little moments on the plane
Speaker:or sometimes in the corner of an airport where it's just
Speaker:me and I can put on my headphones and I pull
Speaker:out my laptop.
Speaker:I can just write.
Speaker:It's a moment of quiet and silence.
Speaker:That just isn't in the rest of my life.
Speaker:Being on the road a lot is being able to pull
Speaker:out my MacBook air.
Speaker:And I will say,
Speaker:it's not the same.
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:I take a lot of notes on my phone when something
Speaker:strikes me,
Speaker:but it's not the same as having a keyboard in front
Speaker:of you.
Speaker:I'm right with you.
Speaker:Totally agree.
Speaker:Besides your book,
Speaker:which of course we're going to have in the show notes
Speaker:and all.
Speaker:Is there another book that you would recommend to our listeners?
Speaker:Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker:There's a lot of books,
Speaker:but I think one of my favorite books of all time
Speaker:that has really changed how I do business and reinforce how
Speaker:I do business is a business book called getting naked by
Speaker:Patrick Lencioni.
Speaker:And it's actually written as a parable of business parable.
Speaker:And then it kind of explains it in more business terms,
Speaker:following the parable,
Speaker:but it really just dives into the heart of business.
Speaker:And he has several concepts in it that have changed my
Speaker:world and really focused how I try to help people and
Speaker:serve my clients.
Speaker:And one of those concepts is entering the danger.
Speaker:And you'll find that if you're sitting in a meeting with
Speaker:several people and something awkward comes up,
Speaker:usually the group tries to move past it.
Speaker:Or maybe somebody doesn't agree and is passive aggressively undermining a
Speaker:decision, but nobody's going to bring it up because it's awkward.
Speaker:Well in this book getting naked,
Speaker:he says,
Speaker:enter that danger.
Speaker:If you see something awkward,
Speaker:if somebody is offended,
Speaker:if there's something going on,
Speaker:you need to enter that and deal with it for responding
Speaker:with that is this concept of the kind truth.
Speaker:And this is something we talk about a lot in my
Speaker:company because without kindness,
Speaker:truth can just be harsh and not helpful,
Speaker:but without truth,
Speaker:kindness is completely unhelpful.
Speaker:You need the kind of truth you need,
Speaker:those things put together.
Speaker:So if you have the kind truth in what I think,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:all businesses relationship,
Speaker:if you have the kind of truth and you're entering the
Speaker:danger, having the hard conversations,
Speaker:focusing on giving and relationship over just products and profit,
Speaker:then you will get a lot farther in life.
Speaker:And so getting naked by Patrick Lencioni has meant a lot
Speaker:in my career.
Speaker:You've got a couple of quotes there that you should be
Speaker:promoting out,
Speaker:or I'm going to do it for you because that is
Speaker:also true.
Speaker:And I can just see it in a board room or
Speaker:with friends or wherever someone says something awkward and people will
Speaker:just, it's like pushing the elephant out of the door,
Speaker:not addressing it at all,
Speaker:but the shadow is still there.
Speaker:It's still sitting there.
Speaker:It was never addressed.
Speaker:I can't say it anywhere near as eloquently as you did,
Speaker:but really,
Speaker:really great.
Speaker:And give biz listeners just as you're listening to the podcast
Speaker:today, you can also listen to audio books with ease.
Speaker:I've teamed up with audible for you to be able to
Speaker:get an audio book.
Speaker:I don't know if getting naked is audible is your book
Speaker:brand vs.
Speaker:Wild Bread versus wild will be available on audible on May
Speaker:2nd. Perfect.
Speaker:So you'll be able to get either of these books for
Speaker:free on me if you haven't done so already,
Speaker:all you need to do is go to gift biz,
Speaker:book.com and make your selection.
Speaker:Okay, Jonathan,
Speaker:we're winding down to the end and now I would like
Speaker:to have you dare to dream.
Speaker:I'd like to present you with a virtual gift.
Speaker:It's a magical box containing unlimited possibilities for your future.
Speaker:So this is your dream or your goal of almost unreachable
Speaker:Heights that you would wish to obtain.
Speaker:Please accept this gift and open it in our presence.
Speaker:What is inside your box?
Speaker:Wow. Okay.
Speaker:This is a big one.
Speaker:I'm excited drum roll drum roll.
Speaker:Besides joining Elon Musk on a trip around the moon,
Speaker:which would be amazing.
Speaker:I think this kind of goes back to the idea of
Speaker:give and,
Speaker:and sort of just the general ethos of my company and
Speaker:my career.
Speaker:Of course,
Speaker:I have goals in life.
Speaker:Writing a book was a goal writing.
Speaker:Another book is another goal growing my business.
Speaker:There's a variety of things I want to do,
Speaker:but this is a big question.
Speaker:And so I think at the end of the day,
Speaker:if I'm opening up this box and inside there's this thing,
Speaker:I think it might be a picture or even a video
Speaker:of me on my death bed and my hope and my
Speaker:dream would be that I'm not alone.
Speaker:That there are a lot of people around me and my
Speaker:hope and my dream would be that there's not just a
Speaker:lot of people that the hallways filled the rooms feel they're
Speaker:standing room only.
Speaker:And that my life has been more than just a series
Speaker:of accomplishments that I've really taken the time to focus on
Speaker:what matters and that at the end of it all,
Speaker:that has been reflected in the relationships around me.
Speaker:So that's what I hope I see when I open this
Speaker:magical box.
Speaker:Wonderful, perfect.
Speaker:And give biz listeners,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:that over on the show notes page,
Speaker:there will be links to everything for Jonathan,
Speaker:including his book.
Speaker:So go over there and check that out.
Speaker:And Jonathan,
Speaker:I'm not going to say that.
Speaker:I hope your dream comes true any time too soon.
Speaker:But when that time comes,
Speaker:I do hope that that's the case.
Speaker:And in the meantime,
Speaker:I know you're going to continue going on and affecting people's
Speaker:lives. Your concepts,
Speaker:your thoughts,
Speaker:your direction has been so helpful for us here.
Speaker:And I know my listeners join me in saying,
Speaker:may your candle always burn,
Speaker:right? Where are you in your business building journey,
Speaker:whether you're just starting out or already running a business,
Speaker:and you want to know your setup for success,
Speaker:find out why taking the gift biz quiz,
Speaker:access the quiz from your computer at Vic dot L Y
Speaker:slash gift biz quiz or from your phone by texting gift
Speaker:biz quiz to four four two,
Speaker:two, two.
Speaker:Thanks for listening and be sure to join us for the
Speaker:next episode.
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Speaker:if you like what you're hearing,
Speaker:make sure to jump over and subscribe to the show on
Speaker:iTunes. That way you'll automatically get the newest episodes when they
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Speaker:And thank you to those who have already left a rating
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Speaker:It's a great way to pay it forward,
