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Episode 191 – Leading Legendary Explorations with Jim Williams
Episode 19126th May 2022 • The Jackson Hole Connection • Stephan C. Abrams
00:00:00 01:01:02

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Jim Williams is an explorer, ski instructor, Exum Guide, business owner, and a record-setting climber. Jim is the founder of Exploradus, a travel exploration company, delivering rich experiences in extraordinary destinations.  

In this episode, Jim shares what it was like growing up in California in the 60s. He talks about how his love of climbing led him to start teaching and guiding by the age of 13. Stephan and Jim discuss how his mother made a big impact on the trajectory of his life. Jim then dives into some of his incredible adventures, including skiing 900 miles in 50 days to the South Pole, guiding climbers up the Seven Summits of the world in less than one year, and successfully following Ernest Shackelton’s 1915 route through the Antarctic’s South Georgia Islands. Stephan and Jim also talk about his efforts to help clean up all the waste left behind on Mount Everest.

Find out more about Exploradus and Jim at Exploradus.com

This week’s episode is sponsored in part by Teton County Solid Waste and Recycling, announcing the new commercial Curb to Compost Program for restaurants and other commercial food waste generators. More at TetonCountyWY.gov or at @RoadToZeroWaste.JH on Instagram

Support also comes from The Jackson Hole Wine Club. Curating quality wine selections delivered to you each month. Enjoy delicious wines at amazing prices. More at JacksonHoleWineClub.com

Want to be a guest on The Jackson Hole Connection? Email us at connect@thejacksonholeconnection.com. Marketing and editing support by Michael Moeri (michaelmoeri.com,@thatsamoeri).

Transcripts

Stephan Abrams:

You are tuned into the Jackson Hole Connection, sharing, fascinating stories of people connected to Jackson Hole.

Stephan Abrams:

I am truly grateful for each of you for tuning in today.

Stephan Abrams:

Support for this podcast comes from:

Stephan Abrams:

Folks, I enjoy reading and learning from others, which guides me to share a quote , because for me, reading helps me learn, helps me be exposed to new ideas that I can apply to my life in my personal life, but also my business life as well.

Stephan Abrams:

So today's quote is, It's easy to say.

Stephan Abrams:

It's not my child, not my community, not my problem.

Stephan Abrams:

Then there are those who see the need and respond.

Stephan Abrams:

I consider those people, my heroes and folks that's from Fred Rogers.

Stephan Abrams:

That's right.

Stephan Abrams:

Mr.

Stephan Abrams:

Rogers, the person we grew to love and saw for many years.

Stephan Abrams:

Today is episode 191.

Stephan Abrams:

You will hear for Jim Williams.

Stephan Abrams:

Jim is going to share his story of exploring the world.

Stephan Abrams:

Jim started at an early age with a curious mind, which led him to explore the area where he lived.

Stephan Abrams:

And as Jim learned more about his area, Expanded his area of exploration and that passion of exploration and adventure grew.

Stephan Abrams:

Once Jim realized with the help of his mother, we all, we all receive so much help and good thoughts from our moms.

Stephan Abrams:

Jim realized what his profession should be.

Stephan Abrams:

And you know what folks at that moment, that's when Jim and his life really took a turn in the right direction.

Stephan Abrams:

And it took off to guide others to explore the world.

Stephan Abrams:

everybody listening, can Google Jim to discover what he has accomplished in the world of guiding and exploring.

Stephan Abrams:

But what's great about today is to sit down with Jim and you can hear his story.

Stephan Abrams:

Jim shares with you, the timeline of his life, of what he accomplished and how he gained experience to become a superb Explorer and world-known guide

Stephan Abrams:

Thank you for joining me this morning at the Jackson Hole Connection.

Jim Williams:

Ah, you're welcome.

Jim Williams:

Pleasure to be here.

Stephan Abrams:

Well, as you being an Explorer, we have lots to cover today about your life and the adventures that you have been on.

Stephan Abrams:

but we all start someplace.

Stephan Abrams:

I'm curious to learn where you were born and raised.

Stephan Abrams:

And how did you land here in Jackson?

Jim Williams:

Well, I was born in Shreveport, Louisiana, but.

Jim Williams:

To be honest, have no recollection of living there.

Jim Williams:

Obviously I lived there for at least two years because my sister was also born there.

Jim Williams:

And then I'm told we moved to Shreveport Lu, from Shreveport to Schenectady New York, or my father worked for General Electric, have no memory of that either.

Jim Williams:

And then we moved to California, the south bay area, Saratoga, California.

Jim Williams:

And we lived there for, several years.

Jim Williams:

Then we lived in two places, finally owned a house.

Jim Williams:

And then in the early sixties, we moved back to the east coast because my father worked internationally and we lived on the west coast when he was working in Japan.

Jim Williams:

And we work on, lived on the east coast when he was working in India.

Jim Williams:

So then we moved back.

Jim Williams:

To the east coast and we spent three or four years there.

Jim Williams:

Then we moved back to California where I basically spent the rest of the time until I graduated from high school.

Stephan Abrams:

Okay.

Jim Williams:

Now at that time, when a year or so after that, and so I grew up, or I spent my formative childhood years in California, the south bay area, Saratoga, California, and, went to Saratoga High School, did those kinds of things.

Jim Williams:

and while when I was a , kid, I, got involved.

Jim Williams:

And a program that was, science-based sort of one of the early programs that would be akin to Teton science school, but much more, open format than, the science school and the modern experiential learning.

Jim Williams:

It was experiencial learning.

Jim Williams:

It was science-based programs all over California and actually all over the west.

Jim Williams:

And, we did, and in the summers we did, things we called Scamps, which were science camps.

Jim Williams:

And they were 10 days to two week long, backpacking trips and the mountains.

Jim Williams:

And we probably on the Sierras and coast range.

Jim Williams:

And we probably, you know, we.

Jim Williams:

Those in need.

Jim Williams:

It was kid, it was age appropriate.

Jim Williams:

So you didn't have little kids and big kids.

Jim Williams:

But, that introduced me to being outdoors.

Jim Williams:

Being in the mountains, my family was outdoors.

Jim Williams:

My mother didn't believe that it needed to have a television.

Jim Williams:

She didn't believe in television.

Jim Williams:

In fact, it wasn't until I was in high school, that we actually got a television in our house.

Jim Williams:

If she heard of a program that needed to be watched, it was on TV or school said needed to be watched.

Jim Williams:

We go over to somebody's house who had a television, but then my great grandmother, great.

Jim Williams:

Somebody died and left us a television, which she begrudgingly transferred to the house.

Jim Williams:

But promptly put it between behind locking key.

Jim Williams:

So you couldn't watch.

Jim Williams:

Just randomly cause she believed California being nice.

Jim Williams:

She believed that you needed to be outdoors.

Jim Williams:

If you had spare time, if you were doing SchoolWorks one thing, but if you were, if you could be outdoors, so spent a lot of time growing up, climbing trees and running around.

Jim Williams:

I didn't play a lot of sports per se.

Jim Williams:

I tried my hand at baseball and I tried my hand at soccer.

Jim Williams:

I tried my hand basketball.

Jim Williams:

I was tall, so they used to put me in as a center.

Jim Williams:

And then as soon as I did the jump, then they would take me out again.

Jim Williams:

But, that was about it.

Jim Williams:

but I enjoyed doing things outside.

Jim Williams:

I enjoyed, you know, climbing trees.

Jim Williams:

I enjoyed sledding in the east coast.

Jim Williams:

I enjoyed riding my bike and early, early mountain biking.

Jim Williams:

Cause they don't, I didn't make mountain bikes at that time.

Jim Williams:

I just took regular old street bikes and rode them in the woods.

Jim Williams:

But anyway, and then when I was about.

Jim Williams:

10 11 years old, I got introduced to climbing.

Jim Williams:

And, I'll say that if there was, you know, something, even though it at the time, it didn't seem that way a pivotal moment.

Jim Williams:

It was probably that introduction to climbing rock climbing and some older kids there on the year told her I was, but there were 12, 13 years old.

Jim Williams:

Right.

Jim Williams:

They, had started rock climbing.

Jim Williams:

One of the guys was a little bit older and, uh, and I went up.

Jim Williams:

They were rappelling off this face, which turns out is only about 60 feet high, but it seemed like it was thousands of feet in the air.

Jim Williams:

And I went up there, I crawled up there and came down where they were.

Jim Williams:

And I said, I want to do that.

Jim Williams:

They're like, yeah.

Jim Williams:

Okay.

Jim Williams:

Then I got off the edge and I was in tears and it was the most frightening thing I did, but I did it.

Jim Williams:

And then the guy who was the leader and the inspiration for this whole outside program, we were on a backpacking trip in the Los Padres national forest.

Jim Williams:

He said, well, you know, repelling is fine, but you need to learn to rock climb.

Jim Williams:

You need to actually learn to belay and climb and tie knots and do all that stuff.

Jim Williams:

So they put together a rock climbing class the next day.

Jim Williams:

And the woman that was with me, who was helping him teach the class who had been there when I had been, uh, repelling, She, uh, was there and she was blaming me and I climbed up this little climb and, you know, those days there was a field thing.

Jim Williams:

So it was, you know, on belay on ready to climb on ready, climb, climbing, climb away, you know, a long dialogue that you had to go through to start climbing.

Jim Williams:

So I climbed up the thing and then I got up to the top of it and all of a sudden, my red wing boots and, high top lace up boots.

Jim Williams:

And I got to the top, they said, so what do you say now?

Jim Williams:

And I said, I didn't know, the then i said.

Jim Williams:

Thank you.

Jim Williams:

And they said, well, thank you, works, but off belay.

Jim Williams:

anyway, so that was the start of it.

Jim Williams:

And that was the start of climbing for me.

Jim Williams:

And then the other guys that were with me were closer to my age and I started reaching out, to, learn about climbing.

Jim Williams:

And my folks were, they probably weren't overly excited about me climbing, but they were, willing to let me, to let me, take lessons.

Jim Williams:

So I took climbing lessons and I went on a variety different projects.

Jim Williams:

And I researched it and I had to have climbing gear.

Jim Williams:

So I joined the co-op REI now in Jackson, but I have a three or four digit membership number, no way.

Jim Williams:

Everybody's well, what's this, I'm like, that's my original membership card number.

Jim Williams:

Doesn't work anymore.

Jim Williams:

I go, well, that's the only number I got.

Jim Williams:

So anyway, what were you a founding member?

Jim Williams:

I was just a kid, but anyway, I started doing as much climbing as I could and it, and I would.

Jim Williams:

And so this would have been, you know, through junior high and junior high pushing towards high school.

Jim Williams:

And, you know, we did cross country skiing.

Jim Williams:

We did what effectively now is Alpine touring, but we did it in those days.

Jim Williams:

Cause we, our skis had cable bindings on.

Jim Williams:

All right.

Jim Williams:

So you just put a bear trap on the front and you loosened the cable and you walked in those things.

Jim Williams:

And you know, we walked out from Badger pass to glacier point, helped push off the, Firefall and that still existed in the winter.

Jim Williams:

You know, it's a 12 mile walk, but when you're 12 miles and you know, in those days that was a pretty major effort.

Jim Williams:

Walked out, came back.

Jim Williams:

Did those kinds of trips used to do got more into cross country skiing as time went back, went on, classic skiing and climbing into the back country.

Jim Williams:

And telemarking even though it was on wooden skis anyway.

Jim Williams:

And, but then the guy that ran that program, I was working as a junior guide probably, but, I was 12, and by the time I was 13, he hired me to teach rock climbing to high school kids 15 years.

Jim Williams:

And up for 14 years and up whatever.

Jim Williams:

And, I came to him and I said, his name is Larry.

Jim Williams:

I said, Larry, you know, you, hired me, 13 years or I'm going to be 13 years old.

Jim Williams:

And I, you're hiring me to teach these, you know, 14 year olds and up or 50 pounds and they're older than I am.

Jim Williams:

And he goes, well, so who's going to tell him, I said, are you?

Jim Williams:

And I said, no, I'm not going to tell him.

Jim Williams:

And then he said, well, neither am I.

Jim Williams:

So we just went from there and I started teaching that.

Jim Williams:

And then I went.

Jim Williams:

Oh, to Oregon did learn to ice climb.

Jim Williams:

Did a mountain medicine seminar.

Jim Williams:

Here's a 14, 15 year old kid in a course that's designed for doctors and medical people, but.

Jim Williams:

I was doing my BA I mean, my biology, I knew what the body and I knew I'd studied about what there was to study about that and, avalanche, ice climbing, that kind of thing.

Jim Williams:

And so I continued to teach, and the high school and on the outdoor program, I eventually got to teaching.

Jim Williams:

for the university of California, Santa Cruz, and we continued to do backpacking cross-country skiing, and I'd started teaching mountaineering on our backpacking trips and then went to work for university of California, Santa Cruz, as a guest lecture in the summer on an extension program that was basically a month of backpacking in the Sierras with some good mountaineering up high.

Jim Williams:

No, that was kind of my, that was my start of that type of thing.

Jim Williams:

And those days you could hitchhike anywhere.

Jim Williams:

So I mean, I even hitchhiked from junior high on, I didn't like to ride the bus, so I would run across the highway and go to the street that led down to the school and just hitchhiked to the school, which is maybe two miles away.

Jim Williams:

But anyway, I'd hitchhike almost every day.

Jim Williams:

I hitchhiked to high school until I got a car that was.

Jim Williams:

father was smart enough not to get me a car that could drive to any of the climbing sites.

Jim Williams:

He got me a 1929 Model A Roadster pickup.

Jim Williams:

Then it didn't go.

Jim Williams:

But about 35, 40 miles an hour and top speed and had a soft top.

Jim Williams:

So you got wet if it was raining and, and, it was great on dates.

Jim Williams:

I'll tell ya.

Jim Williams:

but, anyway, I would drive out to high school and then I sorta stopped hitchhiking quite as much, but I'd still drive it back to down.

Jim Williams:

Then hitch up to hitchhike up to the rock climbing areas, go bouldering almost every day after school.

Jim Williams:

and then I migrated to Yosemite.

Jim Williams:

Where I spent time, working with you so many mountaineering school teaching or our climbing kids programs?

Jim Williams:

mostly cause I was still a high school kid.

Jim Williams:

And then, Hey

Jim Williams:

Jim, when you started teaching at Yosemite mountaineering and you were in high school, what year was that roundabout?

Jim Williams:

Oh,

Jim Williams:

I graduated from my school in 72.

Jim Williams:

So you can just before that, you know, 70, 71, somewhere in there, probably 71.

Stephan Abrams:

So you're making quite a name for yourself in high school.

Stephan Abrams:

These organizations letting you teach,

Jim Williams:

teach for them.

Jim Williams:

Well, you got to recognize that I was, nearly six feet tall by the time.

Jim Williams:

When I started teaching rock climbing at 13, I already had a little goatee.

Jim Williams:

And by the time I was 15, I had a full beard.

Jim Williams:

So I mean, people didn't know how old I was.

Jim Williams:

It wasn't an issue of that was, you know, could you rock lemon in those days?

Jim Williams:

That was prior to present style of rock climbing.

Jim Williams:

So we were still hammering pecans and hanging on for dear life.

Jim Williams:

And, and then I guess it was probably right about there.

Jim Williams:

So 14, would have been about 15 years old because I didn't have a driver's license, but I had a permit was I drove up with my folks.

Jim Williams:

My folks sent me to, or allowed me to go to a climbing school that was run by then an extremely famous rock climber guy by the name of Royal Robbins.

Jim Williams:

And it was a contemporary of Chouinards, Yvon Chouinard's who owns Patagonia and Roy.

Jim Williams:

And he'll more kind of, I would say there were somewhat rivals, but anyway, Royal put together and wrote a book called rock craft and advanced rock craft.

Jim Williams:

And he put together a 10 day climbing school, which was a rock climbing program for a full 10 days, and he hired, pretty much the top is rock climbers at the time.

Jim Williams:

And I, you know, it's, it made a huge impression on me, of those people.

Jim Williams:

it was Royal and then there was a guy named Dick or who kind of dropped out of sight for awhile and there was Kim Schmitz and then there was Jim Bridwell and then there was Mike Covington and then there was, Dick door worth, I believe

Jim Williams:

that was it.

Jim Williams:

Anyway, those were the instructors.

Jim Williams:

So it was almost one-on-one instructors for guidance.

Jim Williams:

Yeah.

Jim Williams:

And this is hippie days, you know?

Jim Williams:

we were hanging out at a rock climbing area outside of lake Tahoe and going climbing.

Jim Williams:

Yeah, it was sort of hanging out, sleeping and sleeping bags on the ground and that kind of thing.

Jim Williams:

And from there, I got invited by Birdwell to go to Yosemite and I hung out with him for a couple of weeks there and hanging out and, you know, 70 and my I'd spent literally all the money spending money.

Jim Williams:

My folks had given me on climbing gear and I hitchhiked over the SMT and it was hanging out there, eaten, rolled, oats, brewers, Euston, honey, and, rolled oats out of a bag that you'd feed horses.

Jim Williams:

But anyway, My folks are like, well, why don't you come home?

Jim Williams:

And I'm like, eh, I don't, I'll have to hitchhike home.

Jim Williams:

Oh my mother, fine.

Jim Williams:

He's oh, I'll send up some money so you can get a bus ticket.

Jim Williams:

And I'm like, okay.

Jim Williams:

So I got a bus ticket to Modesto where Royal had a climbing shop and they took the balance, went in and bought more climbing gear.

Jim Williams:

And then that was only an hour, two hours from my house.

Jim Williams:

So then I hitchhiked home.

Jim Williams:

And as I got out at the corner, my mother was sitting there and I figured you'd do that.

Jim Williams:

Anyway.

Jim Williams:

She didn't stop me years and years later, she said, you're, you know, don't expect that.

Jim Williams:

Your brothers or sisters to be like you, they are.

Jim Williams:

but she, let me go through that.

Jim Williams:

And then I was climbing that's summer after high school, and I got accepted to college up in billings, Montana called Rocky mountain college.

Jim Williams:

And the name said, Rocky mountain college.

Jim Williams:

And the brochure showed the bear tooth mountains.

Jim Williams:

I thought, oh, this will be cool.

Jim Williams:

I'd been out to the Tetons a couple of times backpacking and I tell my funny, Teton story.

Jim Williams:

I was probably, I don't know, 15, 16 years old probably.

Jim Williams:

And we were.

Jim Williams:

We didn't need no stinking guide.

Jim Williams:

we could go climb on our own.

Jim Williams:

We knew how to climb.

Jim Williams:

uh, another guy and I got our act together and got our bag and walked up the trail towards the grand Teton and got up to some lakes and kept climbing towards the grand Teton and got to the top Dissapointment peak and went, oh, we can't get there from here.

Jim Williams:

And so the next year we came back and we hired Exum and at that time, Willie and sold them on the others was of Everest fame was working at XOM.

Jim Williams:

So Willy took us up on me, Chuck prep, who I knew from Yosemite and Willie were all working.

Jim Williams:

And so I, we were by then, we were enamored by the names and the people.

Jim Williams:

So then we climbed the grant.

Jim Williams:

and then.

Jim Williams:

W quite a few years later, I came back to work at Exum and I worked with Kim and I was a lead guide for Mike Covington and Alaska.

Jim Williams:

So.

Jim Williams:

All that I had as a kid kind of came back around and I was able to join in that group of people that I felt were really special and always kept as mentors.

Jim Williams:

So kind of sidetracked, but I went to billings.

Jim Williams:

I got there thought, oh my God, there are no mountains here.

Jim Williams:

There was 60 miles away.

Jim Williams:

anyway, found a climbing or a company, a guiding company, a little store.

Jim Williams:

And I joined those guys and, we started a retail business and, I went to school in geology and I continued to guide through the, in the bear tooths and climb in the bear tos, teach climbing, teach skiing, cross country skiing, downhill skiing at red lodge.

Jim Williams:

And.

Jim Williams:

Continued, till I graduated in 77 climbing in Canada, all over the us and, the world in general.

Jim Williams:

And then, shortly after I worked for a while as a geologist and the bear Toose and, Stillwater.

Jim Williams:

And then I, went from there to graduate school at errors in Arizona, studied primer for us.

Jim Williams:

My interest was China.

Jim Williams:

I studied permafrost on Tibetan blotto, and, then that was over in about 81.

Jim Williams:

I became, co-leader.

Jim Williams:

Expedition to climb an unclimbed peak in China.

Jim Williams:

And that was pretty significant.

Jim Williams:

And it was at the time or well-funded expedition that lasted two months, local, filmmaker from Jackson, Peter Paul Alphaeon was a long to do a film of it, but that film never happened.

Jim Williams:

but anyway, we climbed a, a peak and, so Sichuan, China had never been climbed before and it was a pretty well, it was, the climb.

Jim Williams:

We did another fellow and I Alpine style 2000 meter face.

Jim Williams:

That was probably 70 degrees, ice face, basically.

Jim Williams:

So we did.

Jim Williams:

It was a really epic climb.

Jim Williams:

We thought we would take six days.

Jim Williams:

It took us 10 days and we had an avalanche on the second to last day that took away our stove and our food backpack and sleeping bag.

Jim Williams:

We had a tent and the one sleeping bag between two of us and some gear.

Jim Williams:

And this is an unclimbed peak.

Jim Williams:

Remember that?

Jim Williams:

So we then for our, an unclimbed face on the peak, some of the other guys on the expedition, we didn't know this had actually reached the summit before us, but anyway, we never went to the actual summit because of this avalanche.

Jim Williams:

And so we descended onto the east side, which still, again, an unclimbed peak never even been explored that we knew of.

Jim Williams:

And we climbed back around underneath the north face and back to.

Jim Williams:

Base camp.

Jim Williams:

And that was a pretty much a 36 hour push, that we did know we had a couple of granola bars because the sponsor was Quaker and they were coming out with the chewy granola bar at that point.

Jim Williams:

And so we were supposed to do ads for them on the chewy granola bar.

Jim Williams:

And I can still remember I was, they were filming Peter was filming.

Jim Williams:

Was it going to be an ad for chewy granola?

Jim Williams:

At least they thought it was, they didn't really understand climbers very well.

Jim Williams:

But anyway, so the first thing they said to me was, Hey, you know, I'm like, well, what do you want me to say?

Jim Williams:

And they're like, say whatever comes to mind.

Jim Williams:

And I said, okay.

Jim Williams:

And I said, it's so I took a bite of it and I said, Hm.

Jim Williams:

They're like stop.

Jim Williams:

no, not bad done work.

Jim Williams:

So they handed me the storyboard and it read, and I can still remember it's a moist and chewy unexpectedly delicious Quaker chewy granola bar.

Jim Williams:

So we said those lines all over the place tried to make a little videos of those.

Jim Williams:

Oh, it was useless.

Jim Williams:

But anyway, but we had some to eat, so we ate them and we climbed for 36 hours.

Jim Williams:

We had the two ropes and a few pieces of gear and that was it.

Jim Williams:

We made it back to camp to basically.

Jim Williams:

And when we arrived, they were beginning to have a Memorial service because they hadn't seen us for three days.

Jim Williams:

Oh no.

Jim Williams:

And they were having a Memorial service for the, for two missing climbers.

Jim Williams:

Nobody knew where they were that we walked in.

Jim Williams:

They were like, wow, you're here.

Jim Williams:

Then they, anyway, then we left the next morning and went back across China.

Jim Williams:

So that wasn't my first climbing expedition in China.

Jim Williams:

And then.

Jim Williams:

Just to shorten up the story a little bit, but then, I was at home after this expedition and after I'd finished, I was the co-leader with, Fred Becky and, infamous American climber.

Jim Williams:

And, and then a number of people from Bozeman.

Jim Williams:

Rob Hart, who started crazy Creek chairs and, pat callous, who was a very, prolific, climber and Bozeman, and, Dougal McCarty, and a number of other guys.

Jim Williams:

I came back and I finished all the sponsor obligations of photos and all that.

Jim Williams:

And then I was looking for a job.

Jim Williams:

I was a geologist, you know, I needed to have a job.

Jim Williams:

So I'm sitting there at the dining room table, filling out job applications.

Jim Williams:

And my mother came in and she goes, and she was a pretty savvy person.

Jim Williams:

And she said, what are you doing?

Jim Williams:

And I said, I'm filling out job applications and try to get a job as a geologist.

Jim Williams:

And she said, doesn't look like you're having much luck.

Jim Williams:

I said, well, no, I'm not.

Jim Williams:

And she goes, so what do you like to do?

Jim Williams:

Oh, well, you know, I like to go climbing.

Jim Williams:

I like to go skiing and I liked to teach and liked to guide and I liked to travel and she goes, so why aren't you doing.

Jim Williams:

I'm like, well, because I thought I was supposed to be a geologist.

Jim Williams:

That's what you go to school for.

Jim Williams:

I has sent me to school.

Jim Williams:

You guys spent all this money, sent me to college and the graduate school and all this.

Jim Williams:

And I thought that's where, what I needed to do.

Jim Williams:

And she said, well, why don't you go do what you like to do colleges, just to teach you how to do that.

Jim Williams:

I said, okay.

Jim Williams:

And so then I went out and within a year or so I had work in particular for company.

Jim Williams:

It was in called mountain travel.

Jim Williams:

I had almost 300 days a year of work between here and the Tetons, And or here in Jackson, including, you know, the skier and, Exum Mountain Guides, I had about 300 days a year of work and, mountain travel.

Jim Williams:

And those three kept me really busy.

Jim Williams:

And so Jackson was a nice place because summertime, oh, the global travel in the summer, Europe pretty much have its own guides.

Jim Williams:

And so to guide in the places where I had expertise, which was, Asia and some south America was, Seasonally was spring and autumn.

Jim Williams:

So I would go back and forth and then I'd come back here and I'd go to Denali.

Jim Williams:

And then after Denali, I'd come down there to the Tetons, guide for a full summer in the Tetons, and then leave again in September and go to Asia or wherever, and then go from there, come back here and work at the village, for, For Pepe at the time, as a guy, as a ski guy, what's now are called back country guide.

Jim Williams:

But that time we didn't have that much back country and access.

Jim Williams:

So we couldn't, we didn't couldn't go out almost every day.

Jim Williams:

It wasn't open gates and you had to sign out and the patrol had to let you sign out.

Jim Williams:

Anyway, I worked for them and I worked for peppy, to be from about 83 to 97.

Jim Williams:

and then I, Quit working with them for a short time and moved and went to working in south America for and then guiding back country skiing, and the Tetons in the mid nineties through to early 2000s.

Jim Williams:

And then I went back to work as an instructor for the village in, about 2004 where I still teach.

Stephan Abrams:

That's a remarkable history there, Jim.

Jim Williams:

there's other points in there that I haven't been filled up.

Jim Williams:

Oh, I'm

Stephan Abrams:

sure.

Stephan Abrams:

And we're going to get to a few specific stories that are, I want you to share.

Stephan Abrams:

but I love what your mom said to you.

Stephan Abrams:

Go out and do what you enjoy college was to teach you how to find that, and how to be responsible, but.

Stephan Abrams:

go enjoy what you want to

Jim Williams:

buy a large number of people who would say I was fairly irresponsible, but anyway, I, I survived my irresponsible days and managed to get on from there.

Stephan Abrams:

So Jim, we're going to take a quick break to get a word from one of our sponsors and then we will be right back.

Stephan Abrams:

Jim, welcome back.

Stephan Abrams:

I'm so enjoying your story.

Stephan Abrams:

And what I gather is you started coming out here as a teenager to climb with friends and, you know, just over time through you following your passion of being a guide, a teacher in the mountains, skiing climbing, you naturally set some roots to, to end up living here in Jackson.

Jim Williams:

Over the years, certainly introduced me to a place that ended up being home.

Jim Williams:

For sure.

Jim Williams:

I thought about.

Jim Williams:

you know, moving back up to Billings Montana, but the growth potential, they ex the sort of, oh, what, let us seem like an, you know, intellectual expanse and luggage was here more so than up there.

Jim Williams:

And people here had a little bit more global view of things that time we had like winter and summer, and then the off seasons were real and I was gone and we had an airport, right.

Jim Williams:

So I could get in and out of here quite easily.

Jim Williams:

So that was you know, a, it made for perfect in and out.

Jim Williams:

and then L then living here in the, in between.

Jim Williams:

that's kinda, I ended up here, but I ended up here was actually, a conscious choice because it's like, okay, where do I live I would go up to Montana and work cattle ranches for a few years just to get some money.

Jim Williams:

And then I'd come back here.

Jim Williams:

And I had, began to have roots here between climbing and skiing.

Jim Williams:

And then from there, you know, just developed a greater, roots, on the picture.

Jim Williams:

And so then I actually, in the beginning had a, business, called professional mountain guides.

Jim Williams:

And cultural expeditions and ran those.

Jim Williams:

And by then I had mountain travel had sold.

Jim Williams:

It was becoming what's now empty.

Jim Williams:

So back it was in a it's changing.

Jim Williams:

And that, for me, I was the China operations manager for mountain travel, in China from about 83 to just around 90 91, then I was done that sold and lots of things changed.

Jim Williams:

So I moved on and I did my own businesses.

Jim Williams:

two of them one was professional mountain guides, which was climbing.

Jim Williams:

And then, Cultural expeditions, which were trips that had a little stronger cultural, bent to them.

Jim Williams:

but their small group exploratory things with an educational component, even the climbing, has that.

Jim Williams:

Then I was fortunate in, oh, well, 1987 or so I was working for mountain travel and I'm the head of mountain travel friend of mine named Leo Labon, said, Hey, you know, we're starting to put together climbing in the Antarctic.

Jim Williams:

we, you know, would you be interested in going and working with, Those guys in the Antarctic and climbing Mount Vinson.

Jim Williams:

And those days we flew across the Drake passage refueling.

Jim Williams:

So we could take four people plus the pilot and then your gear.

Jim Williams:

And then it was the rest was filled with fuel that you hand pumped into the wings, as you flew across the take the Drake passage.

Jim Williams:

And, that, that aircraft will hold 12 to 16 people at this point without all that stuff in there.

Jim Williams:

But anyway, working for them at the time was the guy who lives here.

Jim Williams:

Also Lanny Johnson was a PA here in town for years and Lanny and I worked and I ran the China stuff and Lanny did some guiding.

Jim Williams:

He was a Canadian certified guide and.

Jim Williams:

after the Antarctic season or so Leo came to me and said, look, we're trying to put together a crossing of the Antarctic continent from the base of the peninsula.

Jim Williams:

And originally it was a very grand scheme, which was to take a boat across the Drake passage, get off on the sea ice do a Shackleton ask type thing, go get off on the sea ice cross the sea ice have a resupply point on the coastline and then ski the last winter or 900 miles.

Jim Williams:

So south pole, but as the reality developed, and, and all we B we realized that was really a huge, that might even require wintering over.

Jim Williams:

Nobody was very keen on dark and really cold weather.

Jim Williams:

And we opted.

Jim Williams:

And we were able to help develop the, first blue ice runways that allowed wheeled aircraft to land on the continent without a dirt strip, but an ice strip.

Jim Williams:

and that has been a huge success.

Jim Williams:

In fact, even today, I mean, they S they fly a 7 57 down there, and with passengers on it landed on the ice.

Jim Williams:

They fly the Ellucian, big overwhelming for.

Jim Williams:

supplied yet down there landed on the ice.

Jim Williams:

You can have very long ice runways that are well-maintained and, on the planes land.

Jim Williams:

Now you don't touch the brakes.

Jim Williams:

You know, you land at 250 miles an hour and you've got.

Jim Williams:

He got a land differently, but the pilots that know that, no, hell how that works.

Jim Williams:

Anyway, we put that together.

Jim Williams:

We landed the Austral summer, before we started then in 88, we had been able to get a group together to go to the south pole.

Jim Williams:

Now we had hoped to have a lot more people, but we ended up with her crew.

Jim Williams:

And the most significant thing to me was that at the time we left for the cell pole, there had only been 11 people reach the south pole on foot, all from the New Zealand side, along the same route, the route that, Scott and Edmonson and the footsteps of Scott.

Jim Williams:

Followed and of those 11 people 600, alright.

Jim Williams:

Yeah.

Jim Williams:

Six had returned alive and the other five and all perished Scott's expedition perished, on the ice.

Jim Williams:

you know, the odds were not in our favor, if you will.

Jim Williams:

the, we took 11 people to the south pole.

Jim Williams:

We had a lot more, And support then Scott or any of those guys have for that matter.

Jim Williams:

But we, had orchestrated, we had, an aircraft on the ice and we had a base camp that was maintained, by the pilot and a doctor.

Jim Williams:

And we had, at times we had two aircraft on the ice and they were, they'd really up the climbing of Vincent C for the highest point in the Antarctic climb in that anyway.

Jim Williams:

So we flew all of our people and it was an international expedition that had Americans.

Jim Williams:

It had the first women, it had a fellow from India, a guy from Chile, people from the UK, people from Canada.

Jim Williams:

And of course the Americans and the oldest American.

Jim Williams:

Anyway, when you're the first person, there's a lot of things.

Jim Williams:

It can be first, but anyway, So then we flew out, we flew onto the ice.

Jim Williams:

We flew out to the coast and then we started skiing and we skied, as a shakedown from the coast back to the base.

Jim Williams:

And then we skied on from the base to the pole.

Jim Williams:

And the total was about 1500 kilometers, which is approximately 900 miles, which is about the same as skiing from here to San Francisco.

Jim Williams:

Just to give you an idea.

Jim Williams:

and, it took us, actually 50 days of skiing and 45 days of actual skiing, 50 days of the trip.

Jim Williams:

And we found that after 10 days travel, we began to lose our steam.

Jim Williams:

So we needed a rest day and we were able to.

Jim Williams:

Get those rest days.

Jim Williams:

And on some of them, we got a resupply of our, food and fuel and everything.

Jim Williams:

So our trip was supported, but it's important to note first it was the first crossing.

Jim Williams:

And, second is, it was prior to the existence of a GPS or satellite phones.

Jim Williams:

So we were navigating via the sun.

Jim Williams:

Cause that was the only star we could see.

Jim Williams:

And then, we were staying in communication on a radio.

Jim Williams:

And and the ultra low frequency radio bounces off the stratosphere and who knows where it lands.

Jim Williams:

But anyway, So we continue to the south pole.

Jim Williams:

We got everybody to the south pole on the trip.

Jim Williams:

And, so then that was a big deal.

Jim Williams:

We had to make sure nobody could claim going first.

Jim Williams:

So we got to the south pole marker and made everybody put their right hand one on top of the other.

Jim Williams:

And then person that was, on the bottom was last and person was on top, got to put their hand on next and they would put both hands on.

Jim Williams:

So everybody got there at the same time, but, uh, we had the first person from India.

Jim Williams:

We had the first two women to ever reach the south pole on foot and they were both Americans.

Jim Williams:

We had, Yeah.

Jim Williams:

Yeah.

Jim Williams:

Tori Myrddin, who's now the president of a college and, don't remember the name of it.

Jim Williams:

But anyway, Tori Merton and, Shirley met and, Shirley and her husband had been the financing behind Hobey sport, OB care.

Jim Williams:

Okay.

Jim Williams:

Well that in the early days and they'd sold Hoby and, and then Colonel Bajaj was the Indian guy.

Jim Williams:

And then, then we had a guy from Minneapolis, Joe Murphy, who had been president of the American Alpine club at one time.

Jim Williams:

I believe.

Jim Williams:

And, we had.

Jim Williams:

Two or three others.

Jim Williams:

Then we had a guy from Chile and then we had, one of the navigators was, from the UK and the other was from Canada.

Jim Williams:

They were also snowmobile drivers at times.

Jim Williams:

We had, a guy from Chile and then we had a pilot and a doctor who stayed at base camp the entire time, but they were part of the team without them.

Jim Williams:

We would have been in a world of hurt.

Jim Williams:

Um, and and we had two physical resupplies and one cash along the way in order to have enough fuel and enough food.

Jim Williams:

And also to get rid of our waste because we carried with us, all of our human waste, be it gray water or virtually anything.

Jim Williams:

and and it all froze, so it didn't stink.

Jim Williams:

And anyway, so we reached the south pole.

Jim Williams:

We flew back from the south pole, stopping midway to refuel and got stuck there for a week and then flew back to the base.

Jim Williams:

And then the aircraft came in and picked us up and flew us back to that, main land.

Jim Williams:

And then we were, metal.

Jim Williams:

We were.

Jim Williams:

Done.

Jim Williams:

That was the end of January.

Jim Williams:

So we started Thanksgiving into January a couple of years after that, I guided a crossing of the aunt of the Patagonia ice cap..

Jim Williams:

And then in the beginning of about, well, in 2000, we had a huge cleanup expedition to Mount Everest.

Jim Williams:

I had started guiding Mount Everest in about , 1994.

Jim Williams:

So in 99, we'd done a medical research project there in 2000.

Jim Williams:

I was a climbing leader for an expedition that was supposed to be doing a huge cleanup.

Jim Williams:

And we did do huge cleanup.

Jim Williams:

We cleaned up a ton.

Jim Williams:

Of waste.

Jim Williams:

And, I can't remember how many, but I'm on the 700 or so plus oxygen bottles off the mountain and we carried trash down we made trash into a commodity so that people got paid to carry it down the mountain by weight.

Jim Williams:

Anyway.

Jim Williams:

So we did that.

Jim Williams:

We summited that Everest 27th of May and then came back, eventually got back to the U S flew straight to Alaska, climbed with a, private client to the summit of Denali, couple of weeks and then came back down and then, came back to Exum spent a summer in Exum yeah.

Jim Williams:

Guiding and right near the end, I had a couple came and they were like, Hey, you know, we'd like to go climb Kilimanjaro.

Jim Williams:

So I was like, oh, okay.

Jim Williams:

You want to go in September?

Jim Williams:

I said, sure.

Jim Williams:

So I said, okay, let's go.

Jim Williams:

So we, another friend, woman who had been climbing, Everest with me and had finally succeeded, she joined us.

Jim Williams:

And then, so we climbed Kilimanjaro.

Jim Williams:

And then on our way home, we met, another woman from here in Jackson, Kay Wilson.

Jim Williams:

And we flew over to Russia and went down to Alvarez.

Jim Williams:

Climbed Alvarez came back to the U S after that.

Jim Williams:

And then, then I went and guided a Trek to the base of Kanchenjunga, On the Nepal Indian border Kanchenjunga is a third highest mountain in the world.

Jim Williams:

And then we went from, we didn't climb it, but we went to the base camp, came back and then I flew from there over to Australia.

Jim Williams:

And the us Olympic team was, well, the Olympics had just ended.

Jim Williams:

This is in 2000 and the Paralympics are my cousin and her husband were part of the Paralympic team and she was the coach of the American quadriplegic rugby team.

Jim Williams:

So we took some of those guys and her husband who was a marathon wheelchair, marathon racer, and tried to climb to the top of a ghost.

Jim Williams:

She used to go and Australia, which is the highest point in Australia.

Jim Williams:

Those guys, none of them could get up the last bit because it was too steep and covered in snow.

Jim Williams:

And it was just too much to haul them up there.

Jim Williams:

But anyway, some of the cruise port crew on all got to some of the and then we got back down, then we, then I flew on from there to Argentina.

Jim Williams:

Went down to you, schwa got on a boat, cause this was a pre and this is something I had planned.

Jim Williams:

And by now I was like, huh, I might be able to get all of the seven summits in here, you know?

Jim Williams:

And so then , I went and we got on a boat and you Schwab, we went across to south Georgia island and.

Jim Williams:

Which is in the Antarctic convergence.

Jim Williams:

So it's considered Antarctica and it's the island that Shackleton came to after he had left his crew and they were on an open boat and they skit sailed 750 miles across.

Jim Williams:

I came in on the Winward sudden realized they couldn't probably sail around and get to the Leeward side.

Jim Williams:

So they, left the boat there at Peggy point and they crossed on foot across the mountains and glaciers and came down.

Jim Williams:

And, Stromness bay, which is where the whaling station was, where they had left about a year and a half earlier.

Jim Williams:

And they crossed over.

Jim Williams:

And so we followed their route.

Jim Williams:

And it may have been the first, commercially run crossing of the route.

Jim Williams:

And so we had a Malawian on, I don't remember, well, 40 people maybe, and we crossed over and then we came down into the bay where they, as the story goes, came down, people were like, who are you?

Jim Williams:

Where'd you come from?

Jim Williams:

they'd said who they were.

Jim Williams:

They're like, whoa, how'd you get here?

Jim Williams:

You know, anyway, short of it was, they then went back and went and rescued the rest of the crew, nobody died.

Jim Williams:

That was on that boat at that time.

Jim Williams:

So they Shackleton was credited with having good leadership skills and likes.

Jim Williams:

Anyway, then we went from there.

Jim Williams:

I did a little personal trip to Patagonia.

Jim Williams:

Then I went and flew down to the Antarctic guided, Vincent Massif where the crew came back from that just before Christmas went home to spend Christmas with my family, came back a couple days after Christmas to guide another really supposedly high powered group of guys who wanted to climb MOC.

Jim Williams:

Aconcagua what reasons I don't fully understand, but anyway, they were heads of big corporations and originally it was all orchestrated by.

Jim Williams:

It was going to fly in by helicopter, but reality was, it doesn't really work.

Jim Williams:

So walking is still the best way.

Jim Williams:

So, um, We got everybody in and we got up on the mountain and we got at the high camp and the winds is they can be on Aconcagua at specially at the end of December, early January.

Jim Williams:

We're just horrendous on, I had a guy who was at the time head of Northwest airlines and he said, you know, my airplane just don't wait.

Jim Williams:

Whether I don't know.

Jim Williams:

I was like, yeah, well, I've been on a few of them and they do wait for weather.

Jim Williams:

But if you'd like to go outside and stand in the wind for about 20 minutes and then come back in and tell me whether or not you want to go for the summit, I'll let you, but recognize that we're going to go up about 3000 vertical feet and it's only going to get windier and colder.

Jim Williams:

So he went out and stood out there for about five minutes and came back and goes, I'm going down.

Jim Williams:

I'm going home.

Jim Williams:

Anyway, we stayed.

Jim Williams:

We tried.

Jim Williams:

We never did get a break in the weather and we went home and I then found another expedition that I could, lead.

Jim Williams:

And I guided, another climb of Aconcagua and had maybe the prettiest, climb of Aconcagua that I may have ever had.

Jim Williams:

And that had two people from Jack who live in Jackson now, Tim see a Carlin and, a woman got, I think of her name.

Jim Williams:

mills help.

Jim Williams:

And she's now mills help mills went on to climb other things with me over the next few years, as he climbed Denali and she climbed Everest.

Jim Williams:

And, so anyway, so then I came back that was just around eight months.

Jim Williams:

So at the time it was, I was the first person to hit the highest points on each of the seven continents in less than a year.

Jim Williams:

So you can count the days, but I don't.

Jim Williams:

Jim,

Stephan Abrams:

how did your body feel reaching all of that altitude within a year?

Stephan Abrams:

Because if I have read and studied this, I mean, just for some people to recover from Everest can take months.

Stephan Abrams:

From that altitude alone?

Jim Williams:

Well, I was probably.

Jim Williams:

So then I could have been, and I, it didn't bother me at all, you know, you know, then I had some true family setbacks and some deaths in my family shortly thereafter.

Jim Williams:

So the next couple of years, I didn't go back to Mount Everest.

Jim Williams:

Then I started going back in 2004 until 2014.

Jim Williams:

for then I probably went every other year for maybe 20, 25 years.

Jim Williams:

I went every other year.

Jim Williams:

And then, then 2014, we were there and that was when the avalanche killed a whole bunch of Sherpas.

Jim Williams:

And.

Jim Williams:

that was a year before the earthquake, but it was a year playing the lives of a number of Sherpas that worked for us.

Jim Williams:

And really, I, haven't gone back to guide that after that I did not lose any Sherpas on my team.

Jim Williams:

I was very fortunate on all of my guys came back and went home and didn't come back to work.

Jim Williams:

we've all done our own things, still friends, but we're not necessarily climbing the highest mountain in the world any longer.

Jim Williams:

well, that's all right.

Jim Williams:

Yeah, I've done it.

Jim Williams:

And I've done it multiple times in terms of having been there and guided successful expeditions.

Jim Williams:

But the thing that's critical to all of this is all of this is guiding, right?

Jim Williams:

There's not a single one of these things that I've described that I did for my ex exclusively for myself.

Jim Williams:

I did them for as a guide, always with people in tow.

Jim Williams:

And now I'm still doing this.

Jim Williams:

I did Kilimanjaro twice in the last six months, nine months now.

Jim Williams:

and, I've got a trip to.

Jim Williams:

The Galapagos.

Jim Williams:

And then we've got a trip to Iceland and I have a trip to Nepal and autumn.

Jim Williams:

I mean, just to give myself a plug, I have a business in Jackson, which has been there for almost 20 years.

Jim Williams:

Now, it's the name of your business gym?

Jim Williams:

Explored it.

Jim Williams:

And you've been

Stephan Abrams:

operating this business for 20 years now.

Jim Williams:

Yeah, 22 now, apparently paperwork says I started it in 2000.

Jim Williams:

and before that it was professional mountain guides and cultural expeditions, but we, we got rid of that name and brought it all under explored us and in an effort to explore remote wilderness areas around the world,

Stephan Abrams:

it's spectacular.

Stephan Abrams:

And since you're still running trips and guiding people, how do people get in touch with you if they are interested in you putting together

Jim Williams:

a trip for them?

Jim Williams:

Well, they can reach out to the website, which is explore this.com.

Jim Williams:

They can contact me via.

Jim Williams:

email, which is Jim has explored us, or, find somebody like you and ask you how to get in touch with me, because I hear overly connected.

Stephan Abrams:

I have a feeling that, somebody, if they can't find, explore to us.com or find jim@exploredthis.com, they'll probably do the Google and find you that way.

Jim Williams:

Yeah.

Jim Williams:

But if you put in Jim Williams,

Jim Williams:

Mountain guide you, it will come up and that's something I forgot to mention.

Jim Williams:

Cause that's what comes up when you put it in.

Jim Williams:

There is in 2009, I was the, I was fortunate to receive the Lowell Thomas award or metal for exploration and 2000 for journeys to the edge and return the edge of uncertainty.

Jim Williams:

I is how they put it.

Jim Williams:

But anyway.

Stephan Abrams:

And what does that metal or award represent Jim?

Stephan Abrams:

Cause I'm not familiar with, well

Jim Williams:

done.

Jim Williams:

represent anything except for a recognition for the exploration that had been done as an Explorer.

Jim Williams:

And in my case, it was the fact that I, my re the recognition was for taking other people safely to the edge and bringing them back and back safely.

Jim Williams:

Right.

Jim Williams:

So the reason based on the, sort of the criteria they put out there that I qualified was because my expeditions at all, bins that had all been successful in one way or another, including no loss of human life.

Jim Williams:

and it turned out I'd taken a lot of explorers clubs members on trips around the world.

Jim Williams:

there were lots of those.

Jim Williams:

On and her still possibilities.

Jim Williams:

Well, that's

Stephan Abrams:

a very important accolade to say that with all of these trips that you've guided, that you've never had a loss of life in.

Stephan Abrams:

I think that says something about your professionalism when you're out there.

Jim Williams:

Well, thank you.

Jim Williams:

I appreciate that.

Jim Williams:

it's something that, you know, it's not only a goal.

Jim Williams:

It's sort of a mandate

Stephan Abrams:

until, well, well, that's important, Jim, this has been an absolute joy getting to spend time with you and honor, you've accomplished a lot in life, in a different world of what other people.

Stephan Abrams:

The accomplishments are, and, but it's certainly something to be recognized and appreciated and respected and value.

Stephan Abrams:

Then I said, thank you for taking the time to share your.

Jim Williams:

Alright, and I appreciate that I'm on the head do one thing maybe you can use that is that one thing that my father, who was at first light, not in big support of my mom.

Jim Williams:

And he was, in terms of me, going off and doing this, he said, you know, it started out as you're just a guide and a ski instructor, and that's what people do for awhile.

Jim Williams:

And he said, but you actually turned it into a profession and you.

Jim Williams:

You are truly a professional at what you do.

Jim Williams:

And yeah, I, and I respected that for one, I thought that was a pretty nice accolade from my dad.

Jim Williams:

one on a few things with me here and there, but he had the adage when it came to climbing, you know, you know, go higher than you're willing to jump from without a rope.

Jim Williams:

His deal was he didn't like to jump off the first step.

Jim Williams:

So

Jim Williams:

that tells you how much he liked climbing, but he did go on play.

Jim Williams:

He did go places and explored lots and we did quite a number of things.

Jim Williams:

So that's

Stephan Abrams:

awesome.

Stephan Abrams:

That's awesome.

Stephan Abrams:

Well, keep on exploring and keeping people safe.

Stephan Abrams:

Jim.

Stephan Abrams:

Thank you.

Stephan Abrams:

Welcome.

Stephan Abrams:

And we'll see, uh, at, training to be balanced very same for workout.

Jim Williams:

Well, you might not see me Friday, but you'll see me the week after.

Jim Williams:

All right.

Jim Williams:

Sounds

Stephan Abrams:

awesome.

Stephan Abrams:

Take care.

Jim Williams:

You bet.

Jim Williams:

Bye bye.

Stephan Abrams:

To learn more about Jim Williams and Exploradus, visit TheJacksonHoleConnection.com episode number 191.

Stephan Abrams:

Thank you, everybody who helps keep this podcast on the air.

Stephan Abrams:

Of course, the support of my wife, Laura and my boys, Louis and William, all of my teammates at The Liquor Store in Jackson Hole Marketplace.

Stephan Abrams:

The support of everybody is phenomenal.

Stephan Abrams:

My friends around the community who listened and tell me that they hear this podcast and my friends around the country and family who listen in.

Stephan Abrams:

And of course my Editor and Marketing Director, Michael Moeri.

Stephan Abrams:

I appreciate you sharing your time with me today.

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