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Paths to becoming a product manager
Episode 59th August 2022 • Trying to Product • Parv Sondhi and Alex Cox
00:00:00 00:32:48

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Paths to becoming a product manager

In the modern business environment, product management is the job profile that is most in demand. Due to their responsibilities and contributions, they are among the highest-paid professionals in a company. 

Suppose you're wondering how you can become a product manager.

In this episode, we take you through the various means of getting into product management, including internships, switching roles inside a company, and learning the course online and offline, among many other means.

Tune in to learn this and more!

Key Highlights

[1:16] Through internships

[1:51] Associate Product management position

[4:43] Switching inside a company

[7:46] Customer support role

[9:47] Starting or joining startups

[14:27] Offline skill development

[17:04] Hackathons

[18:20] Taking online courses

[20:26] Through networking

[21:44] Having an MBA

[26:43] Putting in the reps

[28:12] Doing case studies to get your work out there 

Notable Quotes

  • In switching within the organization, subject matter expertise is one key thing you have over other folks.- Parv
  • A lot of the time, a lot of the things you're doing in your current role have some connection to being a PM.- Parv
  • The most important part of being a PM is understanding your customers and users.- Alex
  • Any role can become a PM.- Alex
  • Sometimes it might be harder to jump in from some roles directly to product management. But it's still doable. - Parv
  • One of those things with product management is there's not really a formal education around it. - Alex
  • I think meetups and networking can actually open the door. - Parv
  • If you truly want to get a job somewhere, you take one of their products, break it up, redesign it, and show them how it could be better and why it could be better. -Alex
  • And startups are probably, in my opinion, the best way to get into the product, whether you make your startup or work at someone else's. -Alex
  • It can't be overstated enough that the more products you ship, the better you get at product. -Alex


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Hey, so today on trying to product we're gonna discuss different ways to get into product management, from internships to switching companies, to startups to all the different ways that different folks become product managers. So Parv, you want to dive into the first one here?


Yeah. And this is one of the biggest questions that I usually get from folks around. It's like, how does one become a product manager? How do you get into this field? There is no one way for this. Unlike engineering, you don't have like a master's in computer science or data which you can get into product management. It is kind of a whirlwind path for some folks, some folks, I would pretty straightforward. But yeah, this one is a question that really comes up. And I think one of the big ways that I've seen people get into product management is definitely, I think, through internships and you know, pulling together. Another option there is like Associate Program, product management positions at big companies, I think internships definitely are a really, really good way of getting yourself through into an organization into the product role. I myself started my journey through an internship. And I think that was fantastic in terms of getting me the experience, and also just helping me build my resume. And then I think the other one that a lot of folks can look at, and I think has been pretty helpful in getting a lot of folks into this world has been the Associate Product management positions. I think these programs have become much more widespread in big organizations. I know Facebook has one, Google also has one, Uber, and a bunch more have these programs, which kind of give you a great feel of what it is like to be a product manager through different like rotations and products. So I think those two is definitely one that I would look out as when I'm trying to become a product manager. Have you any friends or anyone who have actually gone through these processes? I know I have. But I'm just wondering if you know anyone?


Yeah, I mean, I did the same thing. I did an internship to get into product management. Besides myself, and you I don't really know any other folks who interned as product managers, I think it's something you see a lot for MBA candidates. Oh, yeah. A lot of times during their MBA,

that's somewhere in between, they'll actually intern at different companies. But yeah, I think it's a fantastic way to get in and to really understand if it's something that you're interested in, in the longer term. For sure,


I think that part, what do you call that is actually really important for me, I think it was more about also figuring out a fashion like this, or if I actually am enjoying this work. My pm internship was great, I really, really loved it. I loved the people I was working with, I loved the type of work I was doing. And I think that was a great insight into how PMS work and what that role is. And I know a lot of folks say the same but the associate pm roles. I know a couple of people who actually joined the ones that Google and Facebook through their programs, and ended up getting hired as full time product people into those organizations. And they've had nothing but great stuff to say about these. I do know that these can be slightly selective. But I think there is a lot of material out there that helps with preparation. And it's very similar to general pm interviews. And even the organization's are pretty understanding, I feel like in these sorts of programs, because they know people are switching in from different backgrounds. So I think that also really helps when you're trying to interview for these, but definitely one of the best ways to try and get your foot into the door for Product Management.


Yeah, yeah, I totally agree if they are pretty selective, but I think it depends on how the selection criteria is. I think sometimes they have like pretty difficult interviews. Yeah, but a lot of times you can differentiate yourself just by doing something just by making a product. Yeah, hackathon. Anything like that really helps you stand out?


No. 100% 100%. But yeah, I think that's a big one. Internships, Associate Product management positions, keep an eye out for those everyone, if that's something that you're trying to look into the positions get posted, I think early or every six months for some of these APM roles. Internships, definitely you have your summer and winter internships that get posted. But if you're looking into product management, I think this is one of the big ways that you could get yourself into that position. But besides that, Alex, what else comes to mind when you're trying to break into PM?


Yeah, I think next to the internships and the APM roles, I think the next most common thing is just switching inside a company. I think a lot of times you'll see folks from strategy from data analytics from UX design, even from programming engineering, to switch into product management roles or technical product management roles.



And that's actually a really good one. I just thinking back. I think in my first job, I found out that a lot of the PMs had actually switched in from different positions. I think design and product analytics were the two roles that sort of fed into the product management funnel and kind of converted into that role. But that's such a great one to call out is even at the current organization. You know, it never hurts anyone. It does reach out to the product folks. And just ask them like what does it take to be a pm having that conversation? You know, those coffee chats? Have you had a chance to connect with anyone because They're trying to transition within the organization into PM. Yeah,


I have someone actually on my team is transitioning from business strategy right now, I would say most PMS I know have some type of skill. Like they don't just like a business person. So they have like some type of hard skill a lot of times. And that's kind of one of the best ways to become a pm because you want to have something that you're proficient in beyond just thinking through strategy. And looking at the data, you often want to have either engineering or design something else that you can bring to the table to help you look at the product problems a little bit differently.


Yeah, that's so true. And I think switching within the organization, the one key thing that you have over other folks is subject matter expertise, you have so much depth of knowledge within that space within that field, like I think which could be so beneficial if you're trying to switch into product. A lot of the times when folks are hired from product managers, a lot of the big questions are around how does one think about the future of the technology, the space the market, especially with the ones where the products are, and I think already being at an organization, you really, really are able to build that knowledge through different roles.


Yeah, absolutely. I think it's so helpful to have that knowledge. And also, when you come in as like a designer, and then you switch to product, a lot of people will already seen you in that design role. And they see you in a product role, they know that you kind of have that two stamp of approval. So they trust you. I think at this point, I'm pretty proficient at the design, and especially UX time, but I don't necessarily want to broadcast that to like the whole team, because then I don't actually have a stamp of approval, because I'm coming in as a PM. So I think it's something that it's actually really convenient, because you have two steps of approval in the same organization. That's also


a great point. Just so helpful. Having that background and that knowledge already, that isn't seen how much beneficial that can be in an interview. And it's really easy reaching out to someone who's already on the product team and just trying to figure it out, have that

conversation, go out for a coffee with them and just figure out like, what does it take to be a pm and in your company in your org, and see how you can pivot your skills, a lot of the times a lot of the things that you're doing in your current role, have some connection to being a PM, definitely I've seen that. I mean, as a PM, you're already connecting with so many different people in the org. So everyone's already aware of what a pm needs to do.


Yeah, totally, totally agree. I think even like customer support, like even these roles that I think some people might discount. But customer support is such a critical role. And arguably the most important part of being a pm is just understanding your customers and understanding your users. So I've seen a couple of customer support people who actually came from customer support all the way through to pm, it took years, but having that deep understanding of your customer is so crucial, especially to have at the higher levels as a PM. Yeah, that's


such a, you know, interesting way to look at it. Customer Support, I honestly in my head, like I didn't even connect those two dots. From a transaction perspective. Definitely like I'm in touch with the customer support team as a PM, and I'm constantly chatting with them. But you're so right, like, that's such a great role as an example of where you're building that understanding of the user already. And using that knowledge and adding in a layer of business skills or product skills can make you an invaluable PM,


it really can't be stated enough that really any role can become a pm, I can't think of any part of the business, that's going to be irrelevant where your previous skills are not going to be useful as a product manager to


sometimes it might be harder to jump in from some roles directly into product management. But it's still doable. I think, when we're looking at those kinds of transition stories, sometimes you might find a role in the middle between the current job and the product management role that can help build that transition and help bridge that gap. I know a lot of folks, sometimes from the engineering side, pure software development, move into a bit more of either engineering manager position or architect, Solution Architect, or possibly even program management as kind of intermediate step. And then using that to sort of build out any of the knowledge gaps that they have within the product space, and then eventually transition into product management. And I think that's also something that I really do want to call out is that again, very, very doable. might take more time, but definitely something that can happen.


Yeah, totally agree. In terms of other ways. A popular thing is actually startups. So at a startup,

Yeah, totally agree. In terms of other ways. A popular thing is actually startups. So at a startup, I think we've talked about transitioning inside one company. But the nice thing about startups is you're essentially doing everything, you can be the designer, but you also would be the PM, because there is no product person. So startups are a really fantastic way to essentially learn everything, every single role in a typical tech organization, and then be able to transition and kind of pick whatever you like the best.


This way of getting into a role applies to every single role. If you're thinking about a startup, you want to be an engineer, you go to a startup, you want to be designer, start a business, marketing, legal compliance, you get to do all of that. So if you're trying to transition into any role, I think startups are such a great way to get into that as Basically, as you said, with smaller teams, like you're doing so much more than what your role is that it's such a great way to sort of expand those skills and use some of your skills and knowledge in product to be able to bring that side out. And I think it's a fantastic add on your resume working as a product person at a startup.


Yeah, the nice thing about working in a startup is you literally see from like, nothing to something, especially depending on the size of the organization. So when you go to a bigger company, you've done, maybe about 100 people would do at the big organization. So you've done each of their roles in some capacity. So it gives you a lot of extra perspective as well,


that's actually very fascinating to think about a startup like that. Because when I'm working with folks across different orgs, at a startup, everyone is just thinking about it from a product perspective. And not just product, they're thinking about it from like design, legal, accessibility, localization, engineering, like you are wearing all those hats. Now, someone who's in a specific role might just be, you know, sharing a bit more of their bandwidth into that specific area. But constantly thinking about the product, constantly thinking about how to improve the experience, how do you add more value to the current flow, the current design and everything, I think that just makes it such a great environment for someone to be a product person, and getting that chance to join a startup, a small startup, I think it'd be really, really, really awesome.


Yeah, I think also, beyond just the employees, I just started your own company. I think it sounds really intimidating. But literally all the startup is is somebody who like, made some product and told people about it, the bar to become to call yourself a startup is very, very low. So if you just talk to some people tell them about some idea you have, you can call yourself a startup, I actually had my own startup before my internship with Expedia. So that startup is the reason I got my internship in the first place. Because I'd already been a manager at already had a team

of like seven folks, we'd already like, gotten some initial funding, we'd already done a bunch of it was a, like a clean tech company, we'd already done solar installations, we already like gotten revenue. Initially, it was just like, this is a crazy idea. No one's ever gonna give us money for this. And then people started giving us money, and then it kind of just started going from there. But even though this is a crazy idea, just being able to just kind of say that you tried to do something, it means a lot to a lot of people, because I think most folks don't definitely take that leap. And taking a leap. And just showing that you have that initiative that you have that entrepreneurial drive to just do what it takes to get your company off the ground is a huge, huge thumbs up to a lot of people, especially when you're looking at product managers, because a lot of product managers actually go on to start their own companies, product manager, maybe the I don't wanna say most entrepreneurial, but if you look at an organization, the ones who probably start the most companies are the PMS or the engineers, just because those are the two folks who have typically the most ability to go out and just get things done.


Yeah, and usually love to see a combo of a PMS and engineer building a start up together, almost always. Number that's so true. I mean, building something of your own is just a great way of showing yourself as a product person. Even small things like building a newsletter, building a landing page, building a small, very simple product and a showing, you know how you're thinking about the user experience and design and those elements. That's all product. That's all you're doing as a PM. So yeah, I think, definitely, you know, joining a startup is one and then if you get a chance to build your own, like, at that point of time, I don't think you're thinking about transitioning into PM. But yeah, if you do build your own startup, and definitely that can be used to transition into a product management role.


Yeah, like the bar is as high as you want to put it. You can make your own startup, and it could just be like you made some app that's on the App Store, and generates a few 100 bucks a month. And that's your startup, it doesn't have to be something you do full time.


Exactly. No, that's very true. And I think this one actually really is a great segue into the fourth one, which I think is a, it's also an interesting way to look at sort of trying to get into the product management role is just offline skill development. Just as Aleksey said, building your stuff on the side, building your portfolio building products, just trying to put yourself in the shoes of a product person, again, and again. And again, even in the offline world, outside of your job, I think can be a really great way, you know, transition into this. I think it just builds a lot of that skill and knowledge that you would need as a product manager. And I think right now, there are just so many different ways that you could build that offline skill through, like, so many different reading resources, online, medium books, blogs, newsletters, and then just a plethora of offline courses and online courses that are available for people to jump into product management.


Yeah, and the best way like you can do all this. I read a bunch of books, I read a bunch of blog posts, but I think I learned the most from just hiring some folks on Upwork and making some products. I think a lot of times we think that it costs a lot of money to make things and if you're not a designer, if you're not a developer, it doesn't mean that you can't make a product. I think there's So many college kids, there's so many folks in maybe places where $1 goes a lot further, where you can just ask them, Hey, will you make an app for me for 500 bucks? And a lot of times, they'll say yes. Because by Fairplex, over there might be the equivalent of $10,000. To you. So making a product is a really good way to show initiative, and to put all these things that you're learning into practice and to see if you actually have what it takes to stick through a product. Because it does always say it takes two weeks, and it's always going to take like five months. So I've been getting through that, and the sticking power and the negotiating. It's like the best possible training, you can have to actually make a product.


Yeah. And if you want a team to build something, without spending a single dollar, find yourself a hackathon. Just jump into one, you will find an eager group they're willing to build with you. I am telling like, I think I had my first product management type experience at a hackathon. Just

trying to figure out like what needs to get. What's the problem that we're trying to solve, trying to get a team together design engineering, and actually build something, even though it didn't look great, and it was buggy and had like flaws. And we had like, a lot of like fake stuff set up to make it work. But he was the product, it was something that you did that was solving a problem. And I think just such a great way to meet people and not worry about trying to find resources or design resources, everyone says they're willing to build. I think that find yourself as hackathons go out, build with a team, an MVP version of building a product is a hackathon.


Yep. I think also hackathons. Unlike being somebody that makes something, the hackathon, the only ability you have is the quality of your idea and your ability to convince folks, which is basically real life, especially depending on the company, you're in


social and if it goes, well, that idea can actually become a startup, that idea can actually win you money, like that idea can open up so many more doors, I think a lot of folks think about hackathons specifically from a Deaf perspective and building something from an engineering side or a design side and connecting it to like a potential prize. But even if that's not the goal, think about it as like small mini projects for a product manager, put up that had think about it as a product and just go in, find yourself as hackathons and start building and add that to your resume. Add that to your portfolio, talk about it as something that you're building. And I think it's such a great way of developing that skill of pm without actually being in that role.



Yeah, yeah, I totally, totally agree. It can't be said enough. Like, that's, I think how both of us got our start in making products and getting those reps in?


Oh, yeah, that's the reps 100%. That's just, it's all about getting those reps in. And I think the other one connected to that is, of course, you have all these online courses that can help you fill in those gaps. I've been there too, Alex, I don't know about you. But I'm pretty sure you were there as well, right? Like those moments where you feel like you don't have all that knowledge, even though you're a PM, those moments of insecurity where you're like, I don't know what this means, I don't know how to like, let's say do a forecast, or like revenue projection, or build a go to market plan, like so many online courses available that help you fill those gaps. And I think it's about figuring out where those gaps lie. But I think that's the one thing that's on the person and on you to figure it out. But once you find that out so many resources online that can help you fill those gaps.


Yeah, I think it's one of those things with product is there's not really a formal education around it. So a lot of times, someone's gonna ask you to do something like forecast how many units we need for q4, and you're like, go Google it go, like, what's it LinkedIn learning, YouTube, there's all sorts of really fantastic ways that you can find templates or just learn, because the reality is that you're not going to ever know everything. And you're going to have to constantly come back and keep learning and keep doing things.


That's so true. And even now, like for the past few years, I've seen a lot of organizations also come up that helped with product management, things like courses, certificates. I know they really helped give someone a mini experience of what it is like to be a PM, especially if you haven't had the chance to go through some of that formal training or some of the coursework that you would do in college that would be connected to pm, I think these kinds of organizations and offline schools help sort of complement or supplement some of that information and create an environment for you where you could potentially use those product management skills. And I think they also provide like Alumni Relations, and like career counseling, which could also open the way for product management roles. Yeah,


a lot of these courses also actually meet other PMS. So it's a really good way to network.


That is actually very true, the networking aspect. And I think we should definitely call that one out as well. I don't want it to get hidden within the caveat of offline courses and organizations. I

out as well. I don't want it to get hidden within the caveat of offline courses and organizations. I think networking itself is a fantastic way to get in the product management space.


Yeah, I think any of these courses. Everyone at the time is just getting in and just getting started but in the year and two years So now they're all going to be in different places, and a lot of them are going to be in product management roles. And so that's a really good way to just kind of call up someone you talked with and kind of get coffee with a few times at the class or after the class and then see if they have any roles that are available that you can interview for.


Yeah, and I think meetups and networking can actually open the door for it all the previous ways we talked about, I know a lot of folks have actually found internships or APM programs through networking. within their organization, they were connecting and talking to other product folks, and we're able to eventually transfer in. And then even startups, like, I remember, as part of my college experience, I went out to a couple of networking nights and meetup nights and I got in touch with a lot of product folks who were working at smaller startups looking for people who wanted to jump into that space. So you know, highly, highly recommend just talking to different folks in that space and joining meetups going out to those networking nights. I know it's a bit tougher with everything being virtual right now. But there's still a lot of these that are available. And we'll try and link some of those resources in the Episode Notes as well. The next one, which is kind of a pricey one, but definitely still a good way to get into all of this is the tried and tested method of formal education. I know Alex, you didn't get an MBA or a Masters, right?


No, I have very strong opinions about these. So I guess one of the main ways that a lot of people get into product management is via an MBA, or some type of business management, or business master's degree, whether it's MBA or a different one, there's lots of different ones out there. A lot of companies will actually require an MBA to hire PM. And I think it makes a lot of sense from a company perspective, in the sense that they are giving potentially millions, even billions of dollars of product ownership into this person, and they want this person to really understand some of the business metrics. So I think it makes sense from like a cover your ass kind of perspective. But it's also a little bit short sighted, but I'm also not the one with an MBA. So I'm a little bit not so happy with these bits, to say the least. But part of what's your take on it.


I mean, I actually did take this, but so I am all for it. I didn't get an MBA, but I did do a master's program. As you all know, I was an engineer before this. And a way for me to pivot and transition into product management was through a master's program. And I mean, for me, it was really helpful. Of course, I had the possibility of getting into a master's program, I could

afford that option for myself, and learn some of those core skills through my coursework. So for me, I think it was really beneficial. It gave me access to a lot of resources, a lot of classes that helped me build up those skills that made me I think, hopefully a good PM, or let's say, give me access to skills and resources that made me a PM, let's get away the good. But I think it was pretty helpful. Getting into the product management role through a master's program. And I think one of the big reasons why I feel that it also opens up that door is to the internship, right? When you're in MBA or you're in a master's program, you can have that internship opportunity where you could try your hand as a product manager, I think it becomes a bit easier for organizations to pick up interns in that space, if you have a degree that's kind of related. So I think, definitely, it's a pricey option. But it is a great way for someone to pivot completely from a position where they have nothing in common with product. So as I said, I am biased towards this one a bit, just because I went through this process. But I do understand I'm cognizant of the fact that it might not be the best option for everyone out there. But yeah, I think it is definitely one of the ways that you could transition into product management roles. Because I don't know, I've seen a lot of folks with an MBA or a Masters actually jumping into pm from different backgrounds.


Oh, yeah, I would say maybe half of the people that I work with have an MBA NPM. So it's a very, very common path for product managers. My feeling is that I haven't probably hit that ceiling yet. But I have a feeling there's some type of ceiling where you can't get beyond a certain point in an organization without an MBA. So it's certainly something that a lot of folks in large organizations do put a lot of faith in, that the MBA person will have a much better business understanding. But just


to say like, that's not always the case. Right? Like there are some folks, some organizations where there is that kind of prestige and value given to an MBA, but I really want to say like, I don't think it's a necessity. I mean, you're a great example, in front of everyone. Product Manager, no MBA, no masters, a Bachelor in a role or in a subject that I don't, you can stand euroscience No one thought going into neuroscience say yeah, I'm doing this because I want to be a PM. But you're such a good example of like not having to go down that route but still make it into PM. So just want to put it out there that even though it's a path it's not Have a necessity to go through that master's program or go through an MBA, it definitely helps. It's a great way to add value to your resume to add an experience that could help towards that role. But it's not necessary in any way, shape or form.


I think it's definitely a lot harder probably to go the route. Maybe hard is the wrong word. But it's a lot more work. And it's a lot more self directed work to go the route I did, where essentially, I just like building products, I'm just building products all the time, all my free time, and all my extra income goes into making products. So that's kind of given me a lot of reps.

Going back to that idea that the more products you make, the more insights you get, the more failures you have, the more you're able to learn. But that means that I have probably like 20, I just this past year, I may call products, like one product a month,


no one likes to show up Silex. Sorry.


That's not something a lot of people want to do. I think I have a problem. And if you don't have that problem, then you should just do the more easy path and do an MBA or go through any of these, like internships or APM programs. I think


we talk about the problem in a different audio session, Alex. But no, you're so right. And I think the last thing that I do want to say that connects all of this is that, I think it's important to put in the reps, I think we've said that so many times, and we might not be able to do it through an internship, or APM program. Or it might be even tough to switch within your company might be hard to join a startup, it might be intimidating to join a startup, again, MBA master programs, or have read something that you don't want to invest in completely fair, but nothing stopping us from building our portfolio of just like products that we want to build on the side. There are so many different no code tools out there right now, if you're intimidated by engineering, or development, and such great ways to just put in that effort and the hard work. And I think a portfolio or some sort of way to showcase a lot of the thinking that you do as a PM can go a long way as well. I think that in addition to a resume, or in fact can replace your resume, if you want to talk about all your product work.


Yeah, even my resume, like with all these different companies, most of my resume is just the products that I've done on my own. It's not even a company that I've worked for as much. So I know that I think people put a lot of stock into the fact that you do projects on the side, which I didn't realize necessarily going into it, I just haven't problem. But people do actually look at that. And they do, like see it.


Yeah, you could even do something without building a product, like find an app out there that you like or enjoy, or you in fact hate and propose a redesign, write down a product requirement document for that app and put it online for people to see to share the work that you're doing.



Yeah, case studies are a fantastic way to get your work out there. I used to do these all the time, because I excel, I used to be an Airbnb host. And I would be using the platform all the time. And I just like hated some of the aspects of it. So I just made like a medium article on how Airbnb can improve. And then few folks reach out and then all of a sudden you have these connections with PM. So there's no harm in making


you just sort of medium article you didn't a product that


roducts, they have maybe like:


And I'm so glad you brought that up. Because it's a it's helpful your interview. And if you put it out there, as you said, people just reach out. I mean, everyone's looking for ways to improve. And if you're doing the work already, just put it out there, let someone watch it, see it, consume it, and then you never know where that goes. Yeah, I think that was a great conversation. We talked through some really great ways of getting to pm. Do you want to recap all of those ones, Alex?


Yeah, so we have five main ways to get into a product. So we started out with that through the internship. So internship APM program, they're a little bit tough to get into, but really focusing on interview prep, and focusing on having a bunch of products that you've made that you can

talk through. It's a really good way to get into those. And that's a great way to see if you like product in the first place, especially if you're in college or in a master's program and you're still not quite in the workforce yet. Another one is switching in the company. This is probably the most common way that PMS are made honestly it's folks See in adjacent roles who are working with product managers and the product team or the person themselves reaches out and ask if

they can try their hand at doing an interview or some exercises with the product folks. And then sometimes it works. And I think actually, most times, in my experience, the PMs I'm working with are, they've switched from something else in the industry. But another one is the startups. So startups, you wear so many hats, it's kind of like the internship and that you get to try something before committing. And startups are probably, in my opinion, the best way to get into product, whether you make your own startup or you work at someone else's, a small stage startup just teaches you such an immense amount, that you're not going to get into big company, I think big companies have a lot of ular, because of the high barrier to entry. But you're just not going to learn as much at a big company compared to a startup. And for getting into product. It's such an easy, not easy, but it's a good way to really ship a lot of products. Because I think in my like three months at a startup, I shipped more products, and I shifted it a year at a fortune 100 company. MBA roles. I think that's also a really good track, depending on the company, you want to target bigger companies really like MBAs and they'll normally recruit directly to the school. So you get some extra nice treatment from them, especially if you can pull off an internship during your MBA. And then finally, just teaching yourself online, or offline skill development, networking courses, there's so many different ways General Assembly and YouTube and product school and all these different resources out there, medium articles that have been immensely helpful throughout my career as well to just scale up so that you're ready when you want to transition, whether it's within your own company, or to another company. Just always teaching yourself offline is really the best way to be able to transition into a pm no matter what stage you're at. Yeah, it's just guys, everyone, but they're absent. Yes. I think if I can say that every time but yeah, the reps, the number of products you make just helps such an incredible amount because every single product, you learned something, and you learn something that you take to the next product, it can't be overstated enough that the more products you ship, the better you're going to product. Awesome. Yeah. Cool. Okay. Thanks.