In this episode, the Frank and Andy are joined by special guest Blake Reichenbach, a product manager at HubSpot and the owner of Howdy Curiosity, an online nonfiction bookstore and learning community. The conversation dives into the intersection of data, AI, and the love of books, as they discuss the next steps in managing and mitigating the hallucination part of AI technology, the importance of human interaction with AI tools, and finding the right balance in user experience. Blake shares his insights on integrating AI into HubSpot's platform, emphasizing the need for a balanced approach, and the pitfalls of solely relying on generative AI tools in marketing.

Stay tuned as they also touch on personal matters, career transitions, and the rapid evolution of technology. This episode is packed with valuable insights and engaging conversations - you won't want to miss it!

Show Notes

00:00 HubSpot is a leading CRM platform.

05:44 New AI features for CMS and websites.

09:33 Gen AI tools need to prioritize meaningful data.

11:34 Summary: Suggesting blending human and AI for success.

15:34 ML models need precise training on nuanced datasets.

17:13 Content marketing: human connection, AI balance, user experience.

21:24 Approach content marketing like a multi-bandit test.

26:56 Selling nonfiction books online and sharing recommendations.

27:54 Rapid tech evolution creating excitement and challenges.

30:56 Balancing work and entrepreneurship for personal growth.

35:24 Thanks Frank, Andy, and Blake for amazing show.

Speaker Bio

Blake Reichenbach is a proud employee of HubSpot, a leading customer relationship management platform for scaling companies. With a focus on the CMS aspect of the platform, Blake is passionate about helping businesses with their front office needs, including marketing, sales, service, and data operations. With a bias towards HubSpot, Blake believes in the product and the company, and recommends it highly for businesses looking to streamline their operations.

In this 350 2nd episode of data driven, Frank

and Andy speak with Blake Reichenbach. Blake is a

product manager at HubSpot, focusing on the Content AI platform,

and is the owner of Howdy Curiosity, an online nonfiction

bookstore and learning community. Stay tuned for a

delightful conversation on data, AI, and the love of

books.

Hello, and welcome to Data Driven. The podcast where we explore the emergent fields

of artificial intelligence, data science, and, of course, data engineering,

Which is really the underpinning that makes it all possible. And to that

end, I have my very favoritest, data engineer in the world,

Andy Leonard. How are you doing, Andy? I

am unlike both of you, I have not yet had COVID,

but I and I'm doing well. But it's in it's It's in our

house. We have a a home member here who has tested

positive. So we're all walking on eggshells,

over here. And, but I am doing well. I love

the, you know, the data engineering part. I really love Frank's

article that it was written way back last year. It's So

2023 about roadies about roadies versus the

rock stars, and he calls weed data engineers the, roadies.

And, yeah, doing well. Frank, I got to present last

night in person In person. Richmond Richmond, Virginia,

Not not Kentucky. Which is a good segue to our guest It is. Who

is in Richmond. Andy and I met in Richmond. We organized the Richmond code camp,

although that was Richmond, Virginia. We are here today with Blake

Reichenbach, who is a project manager

product manager, sorry, at HubSpot Focusing on the Content

AI platform, and I love to know more about HubSpot in general. One

of the podcasters that I follow and and admire is John Lee Dumas, and I

know he has with HubSpot. But welcome to the show,

Blake. As we were talking in the virtual green room, you're recovering from

COVID. I had COVID flu strain a, Sinus infection then

followed up with this week. You're such an overachiever, Frank. I have to do

it all day. I just have to do it all day. I know. He's putting

he's putting my COVID to shame. I Should've got out and gotten back into something

else before joining so that I could keep up. I have 3 kids, also

known as bioweapon incubators. So

Fair. Fair. My my only kid is, you know, won't

be visible on the podcast, Yes, of course. But he's the, large bulldog sitting

behind me, and thankfully, he doesn't tend to break too many germs into the

house. That's awesome. That is That's awesome.

So so tell us about HubSpot and and what it is you do there.

What is HubSpot exactly? It's one of those things that's on I have a board

of things I'm supposed to look at. And HubSpot is is is on the list,

but with everything going on, I haven't had a chance to.

Yeah. Well, if that's like your Kanban board of Software to dig into. I would

definitely recommend moving that up in your backlog to dig in HubSpot.

I'm clearly biased as a HubSpot employee, but It is a really cool company and

a really cool product. So we're a leading customer relationship

management platform or CRM platform for scaling companies.

Our platform includes a bit of everything that a business

needs for their front office. So we have marketing, we have sales, we have

Service, we have data operations, and we have the part of the

platform that I live in, which is our CMS. And

All of these different hubs as we call them or or product lines,

exist around that central CRM. We try and make

everything as, you know, fittingly for this this podcast, as

data driven for our customers as possible so that they have these

Integrated systems across their different business pillars, so that

things can stay in sync and aligned, and, you

know, staying true to The data that they

have about their customers to make the most informed decisions possible.

As far as what I do at HubSpot, I've been with

the company for, I'm going into my 7th year

now, which I guess by, like, SaaS industry standards makes

me a grandfather. But

I for the last about, two and a

half years or so, I've been a product manager. I

started out in our product security organization. My focus is

really on, you know, maturing our content abuse

and fraud detection systems. And then I moved over more

recently into our content AI platform. So

thinking about this really exciting emerging world of

AI and generative AI and how that's reshaping

or informing the way that content marketers work and figuring

out what solutions are going to have a

meaningful impact for content marketers.

Interesting. I would imagine AI and generative

AI is probably very much on your radar.

Oh, yeah. Has that been I don't think I've Sorry. Go

ahead. I was gonna say I don't think I've had a conversation in the last

6 months that has not included something about generative

AI Or, you know, machine learning or chat

GPT or Sam Altman. It's very, very

central to, you know, what I'm working on and where my focus is.

Interesting. So so how disruptive has it been for your

your business? I mean, so is it I guess it's fair to say that that

that HubSpot is a CRM, right? And

how do people use AI? Like, how is

AI integrated into your platform? Yeah.

So we have, quite a bit

of of new AI features that we've rolled out Over the

last year or so, you know, I

I again, my my focus is really within the CMS So what I'm most

familiar with is within our our tools for managing content,

building websites. And we've rolled out quite a few,

different AI and ML assistance, within

our feat our feature set. A lot of those are still, you

know, in beta and have to be opted into, But, you know, introducing

different, generative AI models to help marketers

just streamline their efficiencies. So doing things like

Generating meta descriptions for their pages or rewriting

content, you know, pretty what I think in the market is

becoming standard for generative AI tasks, has

really been our our starting point there. You know, I think

we as a company have been,

Looking at AI, you know, longer than it's been this, like,

flashpoint in public conversation. Coming from the security background,

one of my first Big projects and product security was in, you

know, maturing our abuse detection systems and figuring out, you know, how can

we leverage LLMs? How can we leverage machine learning models

To improve our precision and make sure that fewer, you

know, fraudulent pieces of content slipped through the cracks.

And then once, you know, ChatGPT became, like, the

tech topic of the day, you know, that's where,

HubSpot along with a lot of other folks in, in the same space started saying,

okay, cool. How can we pull these features in app to,

You know, give our customers new new tools to use, new things to play around

with, and better ways to improve their own efficiencies.

Interesting. And and you're in the since you're in that

marketing space, like, the and and and I would imagine

It's a very data heavy world anyway. Right? Like, it's a very it's

you already start off with a bias towards being data driven. Yes. I said the

name of my own show. But but, I mean, like and I think that,

you know, I'm just fascinated by marketing.

Right. Like, marketing is my new fascination for 2024,

because I realized in some ways, I'm good at it. In some ways, I'm horrible

at it. Actually, Really got awfully horrible at it.

So, but it's funny because as I look into it more,

I've reached out to people to kinda help, and they're like, oh, no. You gotta

separate the data. I'm like, this is a lot of data analysis. This is this

is my jam. Like, I I should be better at this.

Yeah. You know, good marketing is data driven. I think

that, you know, in marketing, especially content

marketing, It's often seen like as much an alchemy as it

is a science, where on the one hand, you have some marketers who

are, like, Data obsessed. You know, they will only write

a blog post if they have estimated search volumes and,

like, you know, customer persona data. And Then you have other

marketers who are kind of like, let's crank things out and see what sticks.

And I think that's a really kind of interesting intersection

with generative AI Because a lot of, you know,

early generative AI tools for marketers, and I'm not going to name

specific companies. I don't wanna start any kind of, you know, your flame or there,

but A lot of of GenAI tools have kind of just been like

a a churn and burn factory where they're cranking

out a lot of mediocrity really fast. And, you

know, you kind of see if you if you look at performance graphs of

companies that have gone this route of just, like, Cranking out

generative articles without, you know, human in the loop processes.

Like, you'll see their web traffic and their conversions kinda going up, up,

up, up, up, up, hit a cliff, Boom. Drop. Right. And, you know,

there's not that long term ROI. There's not that,

meaningful customer connection that lets The brand really build upon

itself. And so I think that where we're at as an industry now is

this really cool place where The marketers, but

also the Gen AI tools that are winning or going to win

long term are the ones that are able to incorporate data in a

meaningful way. And the products that are able to,

present generative AI functionality In a

way that is intuitive and that prioritizes UX,

which frankly has not been a big emphasis in the Gen AI

industry, for the last Dear, I think a lot of companies are rushing to get

to market and really focusing on, like, what can the Gen AI do

and not how do customers use it? So that's where,

you know, things are super exciting for me right now is we're at

this place of combining generative AI

with Customer data with user data and

also figuring out what's the right balance of having humans

in the loop To make sure that brands are able to have that content that's

really unique and that is special for their brand

and that lets them build relationships with Customers who

are probably pretty skeptical, frankly, of of

generative AI on the whole. Well, I love that

phrase, humans in the loop. And,

usually, when I like a phrase that a guest says, I'll say I'm stealing

that, but we're recording this on the 12th January

2024. So I will put it in quotes

and I will credit you, for that.

Well, I've I've stolen that from another A number of other

articles, so I can't take total credit for it. But if it's the first time

you've heard it yeah. If it's the first time you've heard it, you can attribute

that to Blake Reichenbach of Richmond, Kentucky? There we go. I'll I'll

do that, and I'll throw in a just, you know, a footnote that says Blake

says he heard this elsewhere So that you're covered as well. We wanna be

above board here on data driven. I I just wanna do that.

But I one of the reasons that phrase strikes me

Is that the successes that I've seen, you were

mentioning the the successes going up and up and up. I have seen

humans in the loop, You know, for those those types of

of, solutions. And what it this is

just my simple Bonneville, Virginia, You know, mind the

way that I think about things, but it it appeals to me

as, a little bit like the old mechanical

Turk type thing Where in that,

you've got a person doing what people do best, and you got

LLMs doing what it really does best. And I mean, on both

counts. They outshine the other.

Saw an interesting tweet not long ago that said, all

LLM hallucinate. And it's just the answers that you

get that you like, you know, that help you or accelerate

you are, You know, are are the ones that are just finding

the next phrase or nailing the topic closest to them, whatever,

though the next word. And and they just are they're doing all all the

time that's happening. It's just some of the times the closest word is, you know,

half an inch away. Other times, it's half a mile. And

so their hallucination is what they do. And I found that was an

interesting take, on that, but that's

where the human In the loop, the person, you know, do they

they the person in the box in the mechanical turk, that's when they

shine because they can look at this and go, well, that no. That's

not right. You know, we can't we can't send that forward.

So don't really have a question. I just was, very intrigued

by That phrase, that turn of phrase. And again, if I

use that, I'll make sure, Blake Reichen, Reichenbach

from, yeah, from Richmond, Kentucky. I'm making sure I've

got it written down. I was making sure I was gonna say Richmond, Virginia. It's

such a I almost said Richmond, Virginia, and I almost didn't. I was like, was

it Reichenbach? I didn't wanna I didn't

wanna call you the, name of the guitar the really cool guitar

manufacturer, Which is sounds close. The old

Rickenbockers. Oh. But which would be a compliment. Now I

don't know if it'd be a compliment or not. I like Rickenbockers. To me, it

would be, but to you, I'd be saying your name wrong. So Then break it

at this part out. Just just just pull thing out. I have a lot of

experience with people saying my name wrong. Yeah. That I say your name

wrong. Oh, everybody says my name wrong. Even technically, even I say it

wrong. I got 2 first names. So, you know There you

go. I I spent this past summer in Switzerland,

which is where my family's originally from. And So technically, I've learned that I

am also saying my name wrong. But,

you know, I I have lived in Central Kentucky, almost

my entire life. You know, foothills of the Appalachians.

And so, I I have heard pretty much

Any variation of the combination of letters in my name, I've

I've heard it. Even even my own father often says our

last name is Rickenback. Which that's

A little bit further off base than Reichenbach. No. Not at

all. That that is in earnest. Yes. Gotcha. Well,

it's a little I'm I'm sorry. I wandered off. This is my job on the

podcast. That's what we were doing. We were doing. True. But,

What do you see as kind of the next step in and it's kind of

2 things in it, but we'll focus on the, the hallucination

part of it. And I think that's maybe part of the driver for when

you, you know, you were describing it goes up and up and up and falls.

I think that may be part of what's defining the fall. So what do you

think the next step is to maybe manage that or mitigate

it? Yeah. So, you know, I think

the Sort of first element in

that equation is something that I I think guests on this podcast

have talked about before, which is like having, smaller, more

precise models. They're trained on more nuanced datasets.

Right? One of the really powerful things About, an

LLM like chat g p t or or one of

OpenAI's models is that they are, pretty

solid generalist. Right? And they have this really wide swath of

training data, but the sort of double edged sword

there is Oftentimes, they're looking at such a

huge dataset that the lines

start to blur between entities, between topics. And

so that sort of predictive language capacity to

understand what should come next gets a little bit diffused.

Yeah. Right. So I think that as we see more

industry specific or topical specific,

or even like, I think Data training

sets that are honed in on a specific

brand's voice and their own, like, you know,

existing corpus Of, of published data. That's

where I think we'll see some pretty big improvements in the

quality of these gen AI outputs. Yeah. But The

other part of the equation and what I'm really excited

about and really interested in is figuring out what that right

balances between giving autonomy to generative

AI tools and having humans guide those gen AI tools.

Right. Gotcha. Because Ultimately, I

think we're still in a phase of, you know, speaking about the content

marketing industry specifically. I think we're still in a phase

where People want to connect with people and

for, you know, brands to be able to demonstrate their own,

expertise, authority, and trustworthiness. You know, that's

still really critical for building those relationships as a

business to your customers. And so I think that

What's going to be a big improvement when it comes

to incorporating GenAI into these processes is figuring

out that right balance Of saying, here's what I'm willing to offload to

an l l m versus here is what, you know, explicitly

requires human intervention or human guidance or human

prompting. And what makes that equation

really complicated, like, talking through that in theory, it sounds

pretty straightforward. But then as a product manager, what I'm

always thinking about is, like, how does the customer experience that?

So how does the average user Who's, you know, maybe not coming

from a data science background or an AI background or a software

background. How are they going to interact with these products?

You know, are they going to feel like you're giving them a worksheet and

they have homework and they're saying, what the heck is this? Or are they going

to feel like, I'm losing control. This is, you know, a

runaway train and I'm overwhelmed. Right?

There's a a really fine Balance to be struck

there. But I also think it's it's an

important balance to work toward, and I think it's really important for Companies

building generative AI tools, myself included as a, you know, PM at

HubSpot Sure. To pursue that right balance and to,

you know, figure out how users interact with the

with these tools in a way that gives them a sense of control

And that lets their own expertise shine through while also helping

them work more efficiently. I I love that,

Juxtaposition, if you will. And I I see it, you know,

it there's the human, driven part of this, And

then there's this other, vector. See what I did there?

Where you're you're using the data to inform the human And

both those lines keep shifting and the intersections also

shift along. Well, it's more than that, but that is a great,

a way to look at it, kind of a, you know, a a 50,000 foot

view, and those lines will continue to shift like you

said. The autonomy part, I totally

agree. I think that's you that is a hard call.

And I you know, like, from what you just said, I gather that

The answer may be, several different spots, you know,

kinda like, less interactive,

Medium interactivity, more interactive depending

on the the users, just

acceptance dealing with that. Some people may not have an

issue with doing the worksheet or answering the quiz,

questions, the survey questions so that you can gauge. And that, in my

opinion, will put them higher on that interactive scale.

You know, they may be more tolerant. I don't know if that's the right word,

of the, of AI. But then you got old cooch like

me, you know, that see see all of these questions that have that

reaction like, Come on. I got things to do. Just answer the question.

So interesting. Exactly.

Interesting stuff. It is interesting stuff, and I'm always fascinated by

content marketing, and how how

the success, like, what you said was very true. Like, there are people that

The either it tends to be bifurcated. Right? Like, you have people who do

just will just spew out stuff and not think about the data, and there's

people who will, Like you said, like, unless I'm guaranteed x number of this, I'm

not gonna write a post about that. And I think that the sanity there's

probably some kind of distribution of effectiveness That probably

skews towards the middle, whether it's towards one side or the other. I think that's

up for debate, but, clearly, it's not the outliers.

Yeah. You know, speaking speaking as a, former

freelance content marketer. So rather than, like, as a a PM in the space, but

just as someone who Loves content marketing, and the

the sort of science and orchestration of content marketing. I think

that treating your content marketing sort of like a multi bandit

test Is the best way to approach it so that, like,

you're investing, let's say, like, 70 to 80% of your

efforts Into these marketing initiatives where you have

really strong data to indicate that it's going to be successful.

And, you know, you can say, Like, based on past performance

or Google Analytics data or heat map data

that this is likely to resonate with your audience. And then reserving that

other, you know, 30 to 20%.

I hope I said 70 to 80% earlier or my math is gonna be way

off. Okay. Great. No. You nailed it.

You know, reserving Perfect. You

know, with that other, you know, 20 to 30% of your marketing

efforts, doing some experimentation and seeing what sticks. You

know? I I think that, having room within your

marketing strategy to say, okay, I'm gonna make a really

opinionated post on LinkedIn about this topic And just see what my

audience's reaction is. Or I'm gonna record a,

you know, TikTok Even though the majority of our audience

is on this other platform just to see, like, how does

it perform, what aspects work, And use that as a

way to continuously collect new data about, you

know, what does actually resonate with your audience, What segments of your

audience may you be missing, and are there emerging audiences that you haven't

considered yet that may still be a good fit for your product or service?

That's a good point. That's fascinating. Yeah. Try and balance all of those.

Goodness. Yeah. You mentioned the, The multi armed bandit program

problem, and you basically just described explore versus exploit,

like, very well. Right? And it it it applies to more things than just slot

machines. So so for those wondering what the heck we're

talking about, there's this problem in typically

reinforcement learning, Where it's the explore versus exploit.

It's also known as, the multi armed bandit

problem, where you basically given a simulated bank of slot machines,

How do you maximize your winnings? Is that a good way to describe

it, Blake? Yeah. I think so. Cool. I've done a

number of presentations on it, and I've had a lot of fun with it. Even

in Vegas, I think I actually presented in Vegas.

Ironic. Alright. So now, well, let's switch to

the pre, done questions. This is a great interview.

Absolutely. Definitely would love to know more about that, but, we

wanna be respectful of everybody's time. So here's the first question.

How did you find your way into data? Did you find the Data Life or

did the Data Life find you? The Data

Life certainly found me. I did not go looking for it.

So my educational background, my degrees are actually in English and

sociology. And when I started working at HubSpot, I

So that company seems pretty cool. I'm gonna work there as a gap year before

I go do my PhD in American literature. Clearly, that

is not how things played out. Ended up Falling in love with the

product and the sort of SaaS ecosystem.

And along the way, I realized that to,

Meaningfully invest in growing our product and growing my own career, I

had to become much more data informed and data conscious. So I

am Squeezing every drop out of that single stats

class I took in undergrad that I can. And thankfully, I've I've been

able to work with some really, really, really brilliant Data

scientists who have been more than willing to say,

Blake, what you're proposing is statistically impossible and stupid. Let me

educate you on how this actually works, to, you know, flesh out

my own skill set and familiarity. Very cool.

I love having those people around that'll just say, hey, wait. No.

I have some of those around me as well. Frank's one of them. So,

what what would you say, Blake, is the the favorite part of your current

job? So

my gut reaction was making flowcharts. I love a nice

flowchart. I love, you know, diagramming out customer problems,

but, to take that 1 step deeper,

I think that for me what I love most

is Being able to explore

really complex problem spaces where there's not

a single right answer And being able to

be in a position of influence to say, okay, based on this

abundance of choices and abundance of options for how we go, Here's

how I think we should approach solving for our customer, and here's how we can

measure whether or not we're successful at doing that. Gotcha.

You are such a geek, loving flowcharts. Just

say. I I am. I I fully embrace being a

geek. I love a nice flowchart, and my coffee cup this morning even

said as, oh, this calls for a spreadsheet. So

it's he gets very on brand. I love that. I love

that. That is awesome. So we have a couple of complete the

sentences questions. When I'm not working, I enjoy blank.

Reading and selling books. So, last year, I

started up, a bit of a side hustle selling nonfiction

books. I've got a website, howdycuriosity.com.

I, you know, I I spend so much time reading

nonfiction, especially in the, entrepreneurial

and marketing and strategy spaces and recommending those

books to people. So I decided, you know, maybe If I'm spending so much

time doing this, maybe I can make a couple of dollars off of it. So

got an online nonfiction bookstore now and that is, like, My

favorite when I'm not product managing, I'm fulfilling book

orders, looking up new books, writing about new books, and

having a field day there. That's cool. You could do some

data science on that on your own market. I could.

So our 2nd complete to sentence is, I think the coolest thing in

technology today is blank. So

I Simultaneously, the coolest and in some ways, the

scariest is, how rapidly things are

changing and evolving. You know, over the last couple of years, we've

seen just like a couple of, like, flashes in the pan, on the technology

landscape where people have said, like, Oh, this is the next big thing. Web

3, the next big thing. NFT is the next big thing. But I

think we are actually at the point where we're encountering the next Big thing, which

is all the different ways that ML and AI

are influencing, you know, numerous

industries. And I think that's really exciting,

especially to be kind of right in the midst of

that, To be able to, you know, chart these waters and figure out how

these tools work together, how we can use them to,

improve people's lives and hopefully not just, like, make their

jobs redundant. Yeah. That I think is is is really cool

and really exciting. Very cool. And our 3rd and

final complete the sentence, I look forward to the day when I can

use technology to blank.

Oh, let's see.

I look forward to the day when I can use Technology

to, create a dashboard that

lets me automate all the side projects that I have running.

I am a perpetual tinkerer and doer. I'm

always building something new. And as a result, I have a A

ton of spreadsheets and notion spaces and Google Docs

and everything else just floating through the ether. I have an

Eisenhower matrix on the whiteboard behind me. I have a poster note Kanban

board on the wall behind me, and I would, you know,

Love to have, like, a a smart board or something where I

can take all of these different projects that I'm constantly

Throwing ideas down for, you know, everything from home improvements to

side hustles to day job stuff, and

and Create a better sense of organization than having Post it notes

and docs everywhere. That's a good product

idea. I like it. I like it. Yeah.

So we asked our guests, to share something different

about themselves, but we remind our guests also

because we're all geeks and wise acres That, to

remember, it's a family show. We wanna keep our clean rating. So

we have to throw that out, you know, just just as a

condition. Sorry. Well, I was going to

talk about my love of profanity. That's No. That as a joke.

That is a joke. No. You know, I I

think something, different about myself,

would probably go back To what I just mentioned about being

a a chronic tinkerer and a chronic experimenter and doer.

I I read a book, Many, many moons ago called the

10% entrepreneur. And there was so much about it

that I, didn't particularly

like, But there was also quite a bit about it that I did. And part

of what really stuck with me was this idea or I guess

this question of, like, What would it look like to allocate 10% of your time

and resources to, you know, entrepreneurial endeavors

or, you know, Anything that kind of scratches that itch of

wanting to do something more. And so, you know, through

my own side project, out of curiosity, And

through, the numerous other projects I'm always

in, you know, in the process of juggling.

I've I've really leaned into that 10% entrepreneur approach

and it it is so fun. It's often a

time sink and a money sink more than it is, you know, a

a a revenue channel, but I just I love it. I love trying

new things. I love learning new things, and I love, forcing

myself to stretch my skill set beyond where it's currently

at. Very cool. And I I love that, and I'm hoping that

the transcription will pick up how to curiosity.com. I love

that, you know, you're not Just throwing that in out of nowhere. It's

definitely a passion, and it shows up and it keeps showing

up. So and I would I I just I was trying to think

of some clever way to say how much Ifranksworld.com that

that way the way you're working it in. I'm just

Sorry. That's funny. Picking on you a little, Blake, but it's

I saw you laugh. So if you're not if you're not watching the video, and

I don't think We'll have the video available if you're just listening. Blake

laughed at that, so you should too.

And you mentioned a book which kinda leads into Frank's next

point, I think. Yeah. So Audible is a

sponsor of the show. We we love Audible. Thoughts

and prayers go out to the folks who were laid off in Audible this week,

but, they are still a sponsor of the show, and hopefully, our

domain works to go to the date driven book .com. Can you recommend any good

audiobooks or books other than what you've already mentioned?

Yeah. Absolutely. So I think,

for me, the litmus test of a good audio book

Yes. I listen to it and get so excited about it that I

go and buy a print copy immediately.

And, recently I did that with 2 different books

on Audible. The first being The Long

Game by Dory Clark, and the 2nd being Deep

Work by Cal Newport. Interesting. Interesting. That is a

mark of a great book where you listen to it, and you're like, I have

to have this on paper. You know, there's something about as a book lover, I

think you can appreciate, you know, there's something about dead trees,

that just makes something magical.

Totally agree. The Go ahead, Frank. No. Plus, you

can listen and not get distracted by notifications. So Exactly. You

know, It's a big issue for me. Sorry, Andy. I

cut you off. That that's okay. Go ahead. Oh, no. That was

it. Oh, so where, sorry. Where can people

learn more about you, Blake? And, you

you've already mentioned your side hustle. And I'm gonna check that

out because I'm a I'm a book geek too. So where can people learn more

about you and and all of the things you're involved in? Yeah.

So you've queued me up to name drop my side hustle for, like, what, a

4th or 5th time? Exactly. Right. I'll get close to the

microphone. That's Howdy. Curiosity.comhowdycuriosity.com.

See, I mispronounced it earlier. I thought it was how to,

And it's how d. And as a Combination of

of COVID science COVID sinuses, excuse Me and,

southernism of just kind of dropping vowels.

I'm not sure you can relate.

That, my my business's website is probably

the best place, and then folks are also always welcome to connect with me on

LinkedIn. I love connecting with, you know, other folks in

the industry, especially the data science

industry. You all are some of my Favorite flavor of nerds. I say

that with love. So, yeah, either my my business

website or LinkedIn. Cool. Awesome. And we'll let the nice

British lady finish the show. Thanks, Frank,

Andy, and, of course, Blake for an outstanding

show. Alright, you lovely lot. You've somehow

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