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Existential Fears and No Nonsense Spirituality with Britt Hartley
Episode 28 • 10th March 2025 • The Midlife Revolution • Megan Conner
00:00:00 01:18:53

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Dive into the heart of existential crises with Britt Hartley, author of "Non Nonsense Spirituality," as she shares her journey through deconstruction and the profound questions about truth, identity, and meaning. Discover how facing fears like isolation, freedom, and meaninglessness can lead to a life of authenticity and joy. Join us for an insightful conversation that challenges the very fabric of our beliefs, offering tools for those at the crossroads of their spiritual journey. Whether you're questioning your faith or seeking a deeper connection with yourself, this episode will resonate with your quest for truth and well-being.

Transcripts

WEBVTT

::

Hello, beautiful humans.

::

Welcome to The Midlife Revolution.

::

I'm your host, Megan Conner.

::

And today I am joined by the

::

inimitable and

::

revolutionary Britt Hartley.

::

Britt, thanks for being with us today.

::

My pleasure.

::

Now you can find Britt all

::

over the internet.

::

She recently published a

::

book called No Nonsense Spirituality,

::

which I highly recommend

::

for anybody who is

::

questioning religion or

::

coming out of religion.

::

It's got some wonderful

::

tools in there and I've

::

gone back and reread

::

sections of it several

::

times just to sort of let

::

it soak into my brain.

::

So I love your book.

::

Britt's also on TikTok.

::

And where I first found you,

::

I think I told you already,

::

is on your Mormon Stories

::

episode that aired about

::

seven months ago.

::

And I think it was just a

::

couple of months before

::

that that I was sort of in

::

a nihilistic space.

::

And then I found your video

::

on Mormon Stories.

::

And so much of it resonated

::

with me because I'd been

::

through some of the same things.

::

And it was the beginning of

::

me having language for what

::

I was going through spiritually.

::

And so I highly recommend that video.

::

I'm going to put that link

::

in the show notes as well.

::

And then there are a couple

::

of more videos on Mormon

::

stories and actually all

::

over the podcasting

::

universe about your book

::

and things like that.

::

So everybody can learn

::

everything they want to

::

know about Brit from that.

::

So Brit, I just want to ask you,

::

what would you like to

::

share with people today?

::

What's on your mind?

::

Hmm, that's a good question.

::

Recently,

::

I guess I've been wrestling with

::

this idea of how much truth

::

is good for us.

::

I've kind of been exploring

::

that idea lately.

::

So for those who don't know me,

::

I had a big just

::

deconstruction journey that

::

lasted about a decade by

::

the time I had really

::

deconstructed and ended up

::

in a place like you said

::

called nihilism where

::

I couldn't really make sense of things.

::

I didn't have a sense of my

::

own meaning and purpose.

::

I didn't have tools to deal

::

with things like death and suffering.

::

And life just got really,

::

really dark really fast for me.

::

then since then, you know,

::

a lot of my work has been

::

finding tools for that space,

::

not just for me, but also now for others.

::

But something that I've been

::

really wrestling with is

::

this idea that Nietzsche talks about,

::

which is that we have art

::

because if we just had truth,

::

it would kill us, something like that.

::

And I've been really

::

thinking about some of

::

these harsh truths that we

::

have to face as humans and

::

how much of that we can

::

psychologically handle and

::

how much we can expect

::

people to be able to

::

psychologically handle and

::

how many tools we actually

::

really have for people to

::

psychologically handle these things.

::

So those are the kinds of

::

Deep, dark,

::

deep end of the pool things

::

that I like to think about.

::

For me, honesty about hard, honest,

::

dark places of the human experience,

::

even though they're hard things.

::

just being honest and

::

talking about those things

::

just brings me a lot of joy

::

in some paradoxical way

::

because it just feels real to me.

::

It feels real to me to like

::

really get at the base

::

level of what's going on

::

with our human experience.

::

Yeah,

::

I love that and it resonates so much

::

with me.

::

I saw a video that you

::

posted on TikTok about how

::

much truth is good for us

::

as human beings and me

::

having a very strong part

::

of myself that is a truth

::

teller and that sort of

::

wants to tell all the truth.

::

I want it to be measured too

::

with some compassion.

::

And that's one of the

::

reasons I wanted to have

::

this conversation with you

::

because I sometimes get

::

myself into trouble

::

telling too much truth.

::

And by trouble, I mean good trouble,

::

the kind of John Lewis trouble that,

::

you know,

::

it's eye opening for some people.

::

And when I was going through

::

sort of my journey with my family,

::

I felt like I had been lied

::

to for so much of my life,

::

that I did not want to be

::

lied to anymore about anything.

::

And that's why I ended up

::

where I ended up because I

::

wanted to investigate all

::

of these hard questions myself,

::

and come up with some answers.

::

But

::

I also think it can be dangerous.

::

And I know you know some about that.

::

So can you talk about how

::

that's dangerous for us as human beings?

::

Sure.

::

So I'll give an example.

::

So for example,

::

when we look at the free will question,

::

now I can't know for sure.

::

So when I say truth, I mean,

::

this is the best that I've figured out.

::

I'm not claiming really

::

anything about ultimate reality anymore.

::

I don't even know if we're

::

interacting with ultimate reality.

::

I more mean just this is the

::

answer to the question as

::

best I've been able to kind

::

of put it together.

::

So when you look at the

::

question of free will,

::

how I see it based on kind

::

of really studying it and

::

the neuroscience and Robert

::

Sapolsky and

::

philosophically and the physics of it,

::

I can't see a way where we

::

have something like free will.

::

Now,

::

what can happen to us psychologically

::

if we really take in a

::

harsh truth like that,

::

that we do not have as much

::

free will as we think that we do,

::

and we're more or less kind of doing a

::

cause and effect kind of situation.

::

And if we were to rewind time,

::

we would just kind of still

::

end up here having this conversation.

::

It can be really

::

psychologically disorienting for people.

::

People can start to feel

::

like they're a robot.

::

People can start to feel

::

like they don't have any control.

::

We've also seen studies

::

where you can move people

::

through the arguments that

::

they don't have free will and

::

And we can watch that their

::

morality will go down.

::

We can also watch that their

::

motivation will go down.

::

This is the one thing that

::

Robert Sapolsky is really

::

worried about with telling

::

people that they don't have free will.

::

He thinks we can kind of

::

figure out the justice system.

::

We can redefine society.

::

But one thing that we can't

::

figure out yet is that when

::

people really accept that

::

they don't have free will,

::

they tend to not have the motivation,

::

for example, to become a brain surgeon.

::

Because if you become a brain surgeon,

::

you spend 15 years in school,

::

you kind of have to have

::

this belief that you're a

::

self and that you're smart

::

and you deserve this amount

::

of money and you're going

::

to put in this work and you did it.

::

And there's a lot of kind of

::

self-driven kind of things

::

going on in your brain to

::

get you to put in the work

::

to become a brain surgeon.

::

Now,

::

if you take all of that away by saying,

::

actually,

::

the self is an illusion and we

::

don't have free will,

::

people tend to not be as

::

motivated to go into the

::

kind of work that you'd

::

need to do to be a brain surgeon.

::

And so these are the things

::

that I think about.

::

These are

::

These are harsh truths about

::

God or the nature of

::

reality or the self or free will,

::

where maybe like for you and I,

::

we once had a nice cushy

::

answer to some of these

::

questions that made us feel

::

really nice and warm and

::

fuzzy that we knew who we

::

were and we knew what we

::

were here to do and we know

::

what's going to happen after we die.

::

And it's a nice security blanket.

::

And if you have an identity

::

as a truth seeker,

::

which is one of many core

::

values you can have,

::

but it's especially common

::

in Mormonism where we're

::

really taught to seek after the truth.

::

then it can be really

::

disorienting when you're

::

going after these questions

::

and finding either no

::

answer or really hard to take answers,

::

not nice, warm, fuzzy answers.

::

And so when that happens,

::

it becomes this situation

::

of how much truth is good for you?

::

How much truth can we handle?

::

Is it better?

::

I mean,

::

there's conversations now where is

::

it better to live in the Truman Show?

::

Is it better?

::

for a certain percentage of

::

humanity to believe in a

::

God because it's a better

::

shortcut to these things of

::

well-being than to have to

::

build it on your own.

::

These are really tough questions.

::

And I think the best that we

::

can do in this space,

::

and I share this with you,

::

is that I don't want,

::

because of my past as a Mormon,

::

I don't want to live in a delusion,

::

even one that I choose

::

because it feels nice.

::

Whatever is reality,

::

I want to face it because

::

I've been bamboozled before

::

and I remember what that

::

felt like and I don't want

::

to do that again.

::

Whatever is real,

::

whatever that harsh truth is,

::

I want to be able to face it.

::

But in order to do that,

::

we need more tools than we

::

currently have.

::

We need a lot of tools to

::

face our existential fears,

::

fear of meaninglessness,

::

fear of isolation, fear of freedom.

::

Fear of death.

::

We don't just stumble upon those tools.

::

We need tools to help us

::

psychologically handle

::

truths that we weren't meant to handle.

::

There's a reason

::

evolutionarily that we have

::

the illusion of a self.

::

There's a reason

::

evolutionarily that we

::

created stories to make us

::

not afraid of death.

::

because we function better with those

::

stories.

::

And so if we're going to cut

::

against that grain, um,

::

and face some of these harsh,

::

harsh truths about reality,

::

we need better tools.

::

And, and that's kind of what I've,

::

I've dedicated, you know,

::

my work to now is those tools for myself.

::

Cause I still need those

::

tools and also helping

::

others in that space,

::

find tools to be able to

::

face those harsh truths and

::

actually have those enemies

::

become friends.

::

Yeah,

::

and it's interesting you talk about

::

the existential fears.

::

Obviously,

::

we don't have enough time in the

::

universe to talk about all

::

of them thoroughly.

::

But I do think that some

::

people may not really

::

understand what existential

::

fear is or the definition of that.

::

So maybe we can just go

::

through each of them like

::

really briefly and just say

::

a little blurb about what

::

each of those fears are.

::

Sure.

::

So I'm quoting the work of Irvin Yalom,

::

who's a Buddhist

::

psychoanalyst who was

::

really noticing that humans

::

had these similar fears,

::

and he did a lot of research on it.

::

The first one is fear of death,

::

and this one has been the

::

most well-documented,

::

especially with terror management studies,

::

which...

::

are studies that show how

::

much of our subconscious,

::

sometimes consciously,

::

but a lot of our subconscious brain,

::

is really working on

::

dealing with the fact that

::

we're going to die and

::

dealing with the fact that

::

people around us are going to die.

::

And finding really creative

::

and cute ways to either

::

delude ourselves from it or

::

be able to handle it or

::

have stories to be able to handle it.

::

Or we have studies that show that if you

::

remind judges that they're

::

going to die and you kind

::

of run them through a

::

mortality exercise before

::

they have their their docket of cases,

::

that they tend to be more

::

harsh in their

::

pronouncements because they

::

subconsciously they are

::

attaching themselves to the law,

::

that the law is bigger than them.

::

And then the law then is

::

something bigger than them

::

that will outlive them.

::

So by attaching themselves to the law,

::

it's actually a way that we

::

subconsciously cheat death

::

because we're a part of

::

something that's bigger than us.

::

So we usually, you know,

::

we have two ways to deal with death.

::

We either find a nice

::

bedtime story that makes us

::

feel better about it, which is kind of,

::

you know, a drug.

::

You and I have both been to

::

Mormon funerals where we

::

sing the same songs and we

::

tell the same story and we

::

kind of take this

::

collective drug together

::

that grandma's with Jesus now.

::

And it's kind of a spiritual

::

bypassing way to get through it.

::

And the other way to deal

::

with death is to actually

::

face it and to actually sit

::

with the fact that you're going to die.

::

It's scary.

::

You kind of almost die in

::

that moment when you truly face it.

::

And then there are hidden

::

benefits through going

::

through that journey.

::

You become a lot more grateful.

::

You become a lot more focused.

::

You become a lot more authentic.

::

You become a lot more compassionate.

::

would be fear of death.

::

And there's lots of tools

::

for facing death.

::

And there's various things

::

that people are afraid of around death.

::

So...

::

Talking about the Mormon concept,

::

and I don't think it's

::

unique to Mormonism,

::

but one of the things I

::

think that is unique to

::

Mormonism is that Mormon

::

funerals are not generally

::

about honoring the person

::

who has passed away.

::

They're about repeating to

::

ourselves the stories that

::

we've told ourselves that

::

give us comfort about death

::

and meaninglessness.

::

Yes.

::

So I always found that

::

really interesting in the

::

way that I was like,

::

why is it that we don't

::

really talk about the person?

::

It's about honoring their

::

life and celebrating their life.

::

I think a lot of it too is

::

because there's so much

::

focus on the afterlife that we

::

We're constantly preparing

::

for the afterlife,

::

that we cheat ourselves of

::

this existence and we

::

almost dismiss it as

::

unimportant in some ways.

::

And we sort of check our

::

little boxes and think that

::

as long as we're doing that,

::

then we're going to have a

::

much better afterlife.

::

And when I finally left

::

Mormonism and deconstructed

::

the idea of an afterlife,

::

I found that my life here

::

had so much more meaning to me.

::

And I was so much more able

::

to enjoy all of the

::

experiences and savor all

::

of the experiences because

::

I'm not reserving my joy

::

for some future time.

::

Yeah, that Mormon funeral,

::

really at the level of the brain,

::

it is acting like a

::

collective drug that we

::

sing the song and we tell the story.

::

We cry a little bit,

::

but not too much because

::

they're in a better place now.

::

And we just keep telling ourselves that.

::

So we bypass that grief.

::

And it really is acting like

::

a communal drug.

::

Let's come together and take

::

this drug together.

::

Right.

::

And actually grieving death,

::

like it's like you kind of,

::

you breezed over that to the good stuff,

::

but actually facing that

::

someone is gone and you

::

don't know if you're ever

::

going to see them again.

::

I mean, that's not easy.

::

Like that really crushes you.

::

That really,

::

and our brain is almost in shock.

::

How can someone who I was

::

just talking to yesterday truly be gone,

::

right?

::

Exactly.

::

And that grief is harder

::

than taking the drug.

::

It's going to hurt.

::

But the benefit are all

::

those benefits that you

::

just alluded to so beautifully that,

::

you know,

::

your life becomes a lot more precious.

::

You don't have to kind of

::

take that drug or bypass that pain.

::

You can actually move through it.

::

You can actually put things

::

in your life to remember

::

that person rather than

::

just kind of trying to move on.

::

which is what we do with a

::

lot of funerals.

::

We just kind of try to bypass the grief.

::

But really trying to keep

::

that person alive by doing

::

something that they do or

::

continuing a ritual or a

::

tradition actually keeps

::

them alive in the world in

::

a way that's really profound.

::

So it is harder to not take that drug,

::

but there are more benefits

::

in being able to move

::

through that human experience.

::

But we need tools to go

::

through that hard place or

::

we're going to shy away

::

from it because it's just it's crushing.

::

it's too scary to face

::

because we don't really

::

know how to process it and

::

we don't really know how to move past it.

::

So you're right.

::

That's our super, super important.

::

Okay.

::

So what's the next one?

::

Next one, fear of freedom,

::

which is the one that kind

::

of confuses people at first,

::

which is the genuine fear that we have,

::

that we are responsible for

::

our own lives.

::

And you would think that we want freedom.

::

We give a lot of lip service

::

that we want more freedom.

::

We want more choices.

::

We want

::

We want more autonomy.

::

But in actuality, in our human nature,

::

we actually don't want that

::

much because it's scary.

::

Because it's scary to

::

actually say you are

::

responsible for your life

::

and you are also capable of

::

truly effing your life up.

::

Like that is possible.

::

And that's really scary.

::

So the reality is, you know, we...

::

A lot of people say if we

::

could just be free of all

::

these cults and cult

::

leaders and political leaders and gurus,

::

then we could have freedom.

::

We could be free without

::

these dictators running around.

::

But the reality is if all of

::

them died today,

::

we would recreate all of

::

them tomorrow because

::

there's something really

::

alluring to human nature,

::

to someone who looks really competent,

::

looks like they have their shit together.

::

saying,

::

I have the 12 steps for your

::

perfect life.

::

And we go, oh my God, thank you so much.

::

Because otherwise, we're really lost.

::

It's hard to be a human.

::

And I think the lie of

::

atheism sometimes is that

::

if you just leave religion,

::

you'll just stumble upon the good life.

::

You'll stumble upon your most meaningful,

::

authentic, fulfilling life.

::

And I don't think that that's true.

::

I think that we need a lot of help.

::

And so fear of freedom is

::

this internal fear that we

::

have that we are responsible,

::

but that it's very scary

::

because we don't know what to do.

::

And we're just trying to

::

figure out how to be human in this world.

::

We have more questions than

::

we have answers to, and it's hard.

::

And so we need tools,

::

but also we need to be

::

aware that we are

::

susceptible to creating

::

leaders and to following

::

leaders and to giving our

::

authority away to leaders.

::

A lot of people like to

::

blame politics and blame religion,

::

but we create them.

::

We create them because of

::

our fear of freedom.

::

And so working in that space

::

is really about getting in

::

touch with who you are,

::

really figuring out who you

::

are and your core values

::

and what resonates with you

::

and what calls you and what

::

is meaningful to you and

::

making small steps in that

::

direction and kind of

::

building self-trust along

::

the way so that you're not

::

susceptible to the next cult,

::

which you and I both see

::

with people leaving

::

religion that they'll jump to.

::

from something like

::

Mormonism and they'll jump headfirst into,

::

I don't know, I'm a witch now,

::

or I'm an anti theist and

::

Christopher Hitchens is my

::

new prophet or whatever the thing is.

::

We,

::

we tend to want to cult because it

::

soothes our fear of too much freedom.

::

Yeah.

::

That's so, so,

::

so true that if we destroy

::

whatever systems in place now,

::

we're going to rebuild one

::

because I've been talking a

::

lot lately about how

::

hardwired we are in our dna

::

towards survival and how

::

that really drives

::

everything that that we're

::

doing and that even our

::

emotional responses are a

::

part of our survival and

::

because of that we want to

::

conserve resources as much

::

as we can we as human

::

beings and so we're going

::

to seek for the easiest

::

option whether it's the

::

easiest psychologically or

::

the easiest physically

::

because that conserves our

::

resources if we need them for survival.

::

And the easiest option is

::

always just to have

::

somebody tell us what to do,

::

tell us how to live our lives,

::

tell us what morality is.

::

And I see it so much in the internet,

::

social media culture,

::

where rather than doing

::

their own critical thinking,

::

people will see a post that

::

resonates with them and

::

they'll just repost it

::

without thinking about how

::

it applies to anything in their lives.

::

They just say, oh,

::

I like that idea and they repost it.

::

And then they're surprised

::

when they get pushback or

::

comments that disagree with it.

::

And they're like,

::

why would you disagree with me?

::

Everybody thinks this way

::

because we've created these

::

echo chambers for ourselves

::

online where we only follow

::

people we agree with.

::

We only

::

listen to or read or consume

::

podcasts of people that we agree with.

::

And it's because it's so

::

much harder to listen to

::

other ideas different than

::

our own and expend the

::

mental energy that it takes

::

to absorb them and consider them.

::

and decide whether or not

::

they apply to our lives.

::

So just as you say,

::

this fear of freedom is really about,

::

let me conserve my brain

::

power and have someone else

::

just tell me how to live my life.

::

And it's really hard to

::

break away from that and

::

start to realize that we

::

are the ones who make all

::

those decisions for ourselves.

::

Yeah, and this is where you really have to,

::

like you're saying,

::

you really have to cut

::

against your biases because

::

we're not these blank

::

slates that just take in

::

information and make rational decisions.

::

We are really emotional

::

creatures and we're highly biased,

::

which means if you are not

::

actively trying to get out

::

of your echo chamber,

::

like purposefully following

::

people that challenge your beliefs,

::

if you're not doing that intentionally,

::

then

::

your bias, even without choosing it,

::

your bias will be kind of

::

the flow of the river is

::

that you will end up in an

::

echo chamber because it feels safe.

::

Like you say, it feels safe.

::

This is the answer.

::

These are the good guys.

::

These are the bad guys.

::

And like you say,

::

there are evolutionary

::

reasons why that feels

::

really safe for us to have

::

an in-group and to really

::

follow the leader of our

::

in-group who has signals of competence,

::

right?

::

And there are reasons that

::

our brain tends towards that direction.

::

So if you want to not be that,

::

if you want to be able to

::

say I'm a critical thinker

::

and I'm actually thinking

::

about this and I'm not just

::

being driven by an echo chamber,

::

then you actually have to

::

intentionally do that or

::

else your brain's just

::

going to end up there

::

without you even trying,

::

without you even making the decision.

::

Right.

::

And I don't know if you find

::

this to be true, but for me,

::

it's exhausting work.

::

and I can listen to

::

something for about an hour

::

before I stop processing

::

and it sort of turns off.

::

So I have to like set it

::

aside and really meditate

::

and consider the ideas that

::

I'm hearing because it's so

::

much mental energy to

::

really dig into that and absorb it.

::

And I just recently had to say,

::

just give myself some grace

::

for that because I'm like, well,

::

I can't go to the gym and

::

work out for 12 hours a day,

::

nor can I mentally put

::

myself in a space where I'm

::

considering other people's

::

ideas for a very long time.

::

So it's like I've started to

::

do it in short little

::

exercises instead of

::

expecting to read a whole

::

book and be able to get through it.

::

And I think that that's

::

really wise because some people will say,

::

they'll talk about the

::

suffering of the world, for example,

::

but if you're just laying

::

down watching documentaries

::

of the worst things that

::

have ever happened to

::

people to where you're just

::

on the couch every day crying.

::

which we can do, like we can do that.

::

But is that actually helping

::

the amount of suffering in the world?

::

Or is that feeling it to the

::

point that you're of no use to anyone?

::

And so I think it's okay to say like,

::

this is my limit.

::

I'm taking as much as I can here.

::

Because the point is,

::

if we're trying to reduce suffering,

::

because suffering is bad,

::

if we can at least get there,

::

then we do have limits to

::

how much we can feel and

::

how much we can think about

::

these things and how much we can function,

::

you know, thinking about these things.

::

Because the other thing that

::

we have to get really comfortable with,

::

if you're not going to be

::

in an echo chamber,

::

is that you really have to

::

get comfortable with

::

I don't know.

::

Like, I don't know.

::

I've listened to this debate.

::

There was good points on both sides.

::

I don't really know.

::

And you have to sit with that.

::

And more and more,

::

you have to get comfortable

::

with this idea of, I don't know,

::

it's complex.

::

And the wisest people I know,

::

if you ask them a question

::

about something,

::

they don't just like

::

whatever the political

::

party answer of that side narrative is,

::

they don't run into it.

::

They'll say it's complicated.

::

I don't really know.

::

It's really complicated.

::

Those are,

::

if you ask someone a question

::

and they say it's complicated,

::

that person understands what's going on.

::

The person who says it's this,

::

this is the right answer.

::

These are the wrong answers, blah, blah,

::

blah.

::

That's something someone

::

hasn't been thinking in that space.

::

They're just following a narrative.

::

If someone says it's complicated,

::

those I feel like are the wisest people.

::

Yeah, I agree with that.

::

Those are those are my people.

::

And, you know,

::

maybe we're not going to get

::

to talk about the other

::

existential fears.

::

And we sort of visited a

::

little before this that

::

we're just going to let the

::

conversation go where it goes.

::

But going back to something

::

that you said earlier about justice,

::

about seeking justice and

::

the judges tend to be

::

harsher when they're

::

reminded that they're going to die.

::

It reminded me of just what

::

you're talking about,

::

something complicated that

::

I've been contemplating the

::

last little while that I'm

::

curious about your thoughts

::

about the death penalty, because I,

::

in the contemplation of that concept,

::

cannot find a difference between justice

::

And revenge.

::

And that's an idea that I

::

borrowed from another

::

person that I was listening to, but I was,

::

I included that in my

::

contemplation because being

::

in a position where I was witnessing,

::

you know,

::

a trial where it was

::

consequential to me personally, um,

::

I believed that what I

::

thought was right was the death penalty,

::

a life for a life.

::

It makes sense to us.

::

And especially in my case

::

where children were involved.

::

I thought that that's what

::

was right and that's what I wanted.

::

And after the sentence was pronounced,

::

I felt so hollow and so

::

empty and so alone.

::

And this is so emotional for

::

me because I still haven't

::

figured it out.

::

And it is so complicated.

::

And I just got to the point

::

where right now in this moment,

::

I have no idea what the right answer is,

::

but it's still part of my contemplation.

::

So I'm really curious to

::

know what you think.

::

Yeah, that's a really good question.

::

And you're right.

::

The majority of the

::

pro-death penalty in our

::

country is really driven by this,

::

especially Christian retributive justice,

::

you know, eye for an eye,

::

you need to be punished.

::

Justice is you get what you

::

deserve kind of thing.

::

And most of our arguments

::

around having the death

::

penalty is really a form of

::

revenge that you did this

::

and you shouldn't have done it.

::

So we're going to do it to you.

::

And the hard thing is there

::

truly are some people,

::

and we don't even have to

::

blame these people if we

::

don't believe in free will,

::

who were given such a bad

::

deck of life to deal with,

::

that they not only had mental issues,

::

like sometimes

::

schizophrenia or these other things,

::

but then also just a

::

significant amount of trauma, no empathy.

::

really, really rough psychology.

::

And we don't have the tools.

::

We don't have a medication

::

to give this person for

::

them to be able to have the

::

amount of empathy you need

::

to be in a society.

::

And so you have to remove

::

these people from society.

::

And there's just no way kind

::

of around it with the tools that we have.

::

And maybe in a perfect world,

::

we could truly know that

::

someone is going to always

::

cause harm and kill other

::

people and be a damage in a prison.

::

And we know that they're

::

guilty and it's a

::

compassionate thing to do

::

to just to end their life

::

because they can't play in

::

the playground with the rest of us.

::

And maybe in a perfect world,

::

there's a way that you

::

could ethically justify it.

::

But to me,

::

there's just too many ethical

::

problems with the state

::

having enough power to kill people.

::

And we are too biased to be

::

able to really handle that

::

kind of power ethically.

::

So for example,

::

Illinois got rid of their

::

death penalty because they

::

looked back and said 12 out

::

of the 13 death penalties

::

that they had where it was overturned,

::

they were wrong.

::

12 out of 13 of those was

::

because the person was Black.

::

And so essentially Illinois

::

as a state said,

::

we are too biased to have

::

this kind of power to make

::

decisions about someone's

::

ultimate kind of ability to

::

be able to function in society.

::

We are far too biased as

::

people to be able to handle

::

that kind of power.

::

So we're relinquishing that power.

::

And it's actually cheaper by

::

the time you do all the

::

court cases to do a death penalty.

::

It's actually cheaper to

::

keep them alive in prison indefinitely.

::

So for me,

::

for practical reasons due to human nature,

::

financial reasons of how

::

much it's costing to remove

::

this person from society, yeah.

::

and because i don't believe

::

in free will and so it's

::

really a bad deck of you

::

know a bad hand that this

::

person was dealt in some

::

way that that we weren't

::

able to to help them with i

::

tend away from the death

::

penalty um but maybe in a

::

perfect world there'd be a

::

way to do that ethically i

::

just don't think we live in

::

that world yeah that's

::

really interesting and i think that

::

when there are so many

::

different complicated human

::

emotions involved in the

::

justice system and so many

::

different levels from the

::

people who investigate the

::

case and collect evidence

::

to the people who then

::

analyze the evidence to the

::

people who then present the

::

evidence in court to the panel of jurists

::

to the judge,

::

there are so many complicated

::

factors in there that I

::

don't think it's possible

::

to really have what we as

::

human beings believe is an

::

ideal of justice.

::

where it really is totally equitable.

::

And this idea of fairness

::

that I don't believe exists either.

::

So I appreciate you saying

::

that because it does make

::

me feel better about the

::

way that I feel about it.

::

I think what I got to that

::

was hard for me to wrestle

::

with is this idea that when

::

you condemn someone to die,

::

you're essentially giving

::

up on them as a human being.

::

You're saying that there's no possible way

::

way that they could ever be

::

redeemed and i think when

::

we do that for one person

::

we do it for all of us it's

::

like saying for all of us

::

that there's an end to how

::

much better you can become

::

as a human being there's an

::

end to how much you can

::

grow or develop and that

::

there's a place that you

::

can get to where where you

::

just don't change anymore

::

and i think that's scary

::

too and i maybe that needs

::

to be added to the list of

::

existential fears

::

I do think that there are

::

people who have the kind of

::

psychology that they truly

::

are not going to change.

::

And it would be like if

::

there was a dog that was

::

just going around biting children,

::

we would actually put the

::

dog down in the most humane way possible.

::

But the difference there,

::

and I think you're pointing to it,

::

is that we don't hate the dog.

::

Like we don't say like, take that dog.

::

It's a sad thing that for whatever reason,

::

this dog didn't get the

::

proper conditioning in

::

childhood to be able to not

::

bite people for, you know,

::

maybe that dog was abused.

::

And so out of compassion for the dog,

::

that this dog is going to

::

have a hard life and is

::

also causing harm to others.

::

It needs to be put down in

::

the most ethical way possible.

::

That doesn't feel charged to me.

::

That doesn't feel like F you to me, right?

::

That comes from a genuine

::

place of compassion.

::

And I think you're right

::

that when it comes to

::

humans and human errors and

::

things like murder, right?

::

it's very difficult to have

::

that kind of just truly compassionate,

::

empathetic form of justice

::

that isn't driven also by

::

revenge and bias and lots

::

of other things going on.

::

And it just becomes too

::

complex for us to feel like

::

we can competently say this

::

is just like the dog situation.

::

We're just too emotional and

::

too biased for that.

::

Yeah.

::

What do you think of the

::

idea that we have more

::

compassion for the dog

::

because we don't see ourselves in the dog,

::

but we have a lack of

::

compassion for criminals

::

because we see ourselves in

::

the criminals.

::

We see our shadow side

::

reflected back at us and it scares us.

::

Yeah, there's some of that going on,

::

but I also think that

::

there's a free will aspect going on too,

::

that we feel like the

::

person could have chosen

::

different and should have

::

chosen different.

::

Whereas the dog or the bear

::

attacking someone,

::

we just feel like that's what animals do.

::

This is a wild,

::

undomesticated animal that

::

wasn't conditioned properly

::

and is a danger to humans.

::

And so we just kind of have

::

compassion for that because

::

we can sense that dogs will

::

bite like that.

::

That's not outside of normal dog behavior.

::

You have to be conditioned out of that.

::

So I also think that there's

::

a free will aspect going on

::

because I do find that

::

people who accept that we

::

don't have free will do

::

tend to be more

::

compassionate and have much more of that.

::

It's just like a dog who

::

needs to be put down kind

::

of response that you,

::

that you feel bad for the

::

person because they got a rough hand,

::

you know,

::

they got dealt with a rough hand.

::

We still may need to remove that person,

::

but we don't do it with so

::

much hatred that they

::

should have done differently.

::

So some of that also, I think,

::

comes into the feeling that

::

humans have more choices

::

than animals and should

::

have made a different choice.

::

Yeah, that's really great.

::

Thank you so much for

::

unpacking that with me a little bit.

::

I think we can move on to

::

the third existential fear.

::

Yeah,

::

this is just giving us like a good

::

just backbone of things to

::

jump into for this conversation.

::

So the third fear is fear of isolation.

::

And that's a lot of,

::

sometimes that comes after

::

our fear of freedom where

::

we realize that our path of life

::

our core values, what speaks to us,

::

what resonates with us, our biases,

::

all the things that makes

::

us us is truly unique.

::

And in that way,

::

there's a certain amount of

::

mourning that happens that

::

the world that you live in

::

is truly unique.

::

The way that you see and

::

experience the world,

::

no one else is experiencing

::

it just like you.

::

And there's something kind

::

of sad about that,

::

that we are essentially in

::

some ways very alone.

::

There's no one else who

::

knows what it's like to be me.

::

And there's no one else who

::

can kind of look at my life.

::

This is something that was sad for me.

::

No one can fully understand

::

the things that I face and

::

the questions that I face

::

and the challenges that I've had.

::

And so no one can tell me

::

truly if I'm doing a good job or not.

::

if I'm doing the right thing or not.

::

And that's hard and that's

::

really lonely and that's

::

really isolating.

::

And because of that fear of freedom,

::

this is why we so easily

::

will contort ourselves to

::

fit in a group because it

::

gives us the illusion that

::

we're not alone when really we are.

::

And so going through the fear of isolation,

::

when we process it,

::

when we have tools to deal with it,

::

something very paradoxical happens,

::

which is that we actually

::

can become closer to people

::

because we learn how to be

::

alone together.

::

And the beautiful thing that

::

happens when you truly sit

::

with yourself without distraction,

::

without having to change yourself,

::

really sitting with yourself is

::

is that it can make you much

::

more honest and kind of

::

impel you to take more

::

risks in social situations

::

where you take off your

::

mask and you say as a

::

mother actually i'm really

::

struggling and i'm having

::

intrusive thoughts that are

::

really scaring me and once

::

in a while i'll think of

::

something really violent

::

towards my kids and it

::

scares me and it gives me a lot of shame

::

Now,

::

that's something that is true for so

::

many women, including myself.

::

But saying that out loud is

::

very socially taboo because

::

we like to think that the

::

moment that we're snuggling

::

on our mother's chest,

::

that our mother is feeling

::

what we're feeling as children,

::

which is just love and safety.

::

We don't want to feel like in that moment,

::

actually our mom is in a

::

moment where she wants to

::

die and she wants to jump

::

out of that window because

::

she's so sleep deprived and

::

she has psychotic rage and

::

she has all these things

::

going on with her brain.

::

And so it's incredibly

::

social taboo to even say that out loud.

::

And yet,

::

when you process the fear of

::

isolation and you realize

::

that you are alone in some ways,

::

it can help you to take

::

that risk in a social

::

situation in a mom group and say,

::

actually,

::

I'm really struggling with

::

intrusive thoughts.

::

And then in a moment,

::

just by someone else taking

::

off their mask,

::

it gives permission for

::

everyone in the group to

::

take off their mask too.

::

And all of a sudden,

::

it's a group of women crying together,

::

actually being honest about

::

their struggles,

::

about being a mother and

::

how they weren't prepared

::

for how hard it was going

::

to be and how much of their

::

identity they were going to lose.

::

And I've seen those

::

conversations take a shift

::

because someone was brave

::

enough to take off that mask.

::

And then all of a sudden

::

these women are best

::

friends and they're texting

::

each other all the time and

::

they're there for each

::

other just because one

::

person took that step into authenticity.

::

And so that can happen as a

::

benefit of going through

::

this fear of feeling alone

::

and having that change you

::

to the point that you're

::

more willing to be vulnerable.

::

And then paradoxically,

::

you find that you're not as

::

alone as you think you are.

::

And you actually can find

::

deeper connections,

::

even though no one still

::

will know what it's like to

::

actually be me.

::

I found that by taking those

::

risks into authenticity and vulnerability,

::

that many people are going

::

through things that I went

::

through that I thought that

::

I was alone in.

::

So no one knows exactly what

::

my postpartum experience was like,

::

but a lot of people had a

::

lot of the same thoughts that I did.

::

And no one knows exactly

::

what my nihilism experience was like,

::

but a lot of people end up

::

in the place that we call

::

the void and struggle with it.

::

And so going through that

::

fear can really help open

::

up relationships that you

::

didn't even know was possible.

::

Like the level of honesty

::

that you didn't know was possible.

::

And that's really beautiful.

::

It is beautiful.

::

And I'm so glad that you

::

shared that because I think some people,

::

well,

::

all of us initially were afraid to

::

be our real selves.

::

We sort of do this group

::

think thing and we mimic

::

each other's behaviors and

::

clothing styles and

::

hairstyles and all of that

::

as a means of belonging.

::

And that's,

::

it's one of the reasons why my

::

very first episode of my

::

podcast was called Alone,

::

because I think the most

::

powerful things that I

::

learned about myself and

::

about society and about how

::

I wanted to show up as a

::

human being happened when I

::

was alone and I contemplated

::

all of these different questions.

::

And I had this ability to

::

sit with myself for the

::

first time because I had

::

just been on autopilot.

::

I'd been on a treadmill.

::

I was programmed to do a

::

certain thing and to check certain boxes.

::

And it wasn't until I hit

::

the stop button on the

::

treadmill and decided to step off

::

and be alone,

::

that I was able to really

::

consider these questions

::

that ultimately led me to a

::

happier life because there

::

were so many things in my

::

life and so many ways I was

::

expending energy that were

::

draining me rather than filling me up.

::

And I couldn't get to that

::

place until I was truly,

::

totally 100% alone.

::

And for me, it was

::

when I got divorced and it

::

was my first night without

::

my kids after 20 years of being a mom.

::

And I was like,

::

who am I even if I'm not a mother?

::

What do I even do if I'm not

::

fixing lunches for tomorrow

::

and putting laundry and all

::

of that kind of stuff?

::

It was like, who even am I?

::

And I loved this quote by

::

Maya Angelou where she said,

::

I don't belong anywhere

::

until I belong everywhere and nowhere.

::

And then she went on to talk about that.

::

And then she said, I belong to myself.

::

And I don't think we

::

overcome the fear of

::

isolation until we belong to ourselves.

::

And we realize just what you're saying,

::

that even though nobody has

::

the exact experiences that I have had,

::

because I belong to myself,

::

I honor those experiences in myself.

::

And then I find places to

::

connect where people have

::

similar experiences,

::

even if they're not exactly the same.

::

Perfect.

::

Beautiful.

::

Put it on a t-shirt.

::

It's a little long for a t-shirt.

::

I want someone staring at me

::

for that long.

::

I have nothing to add to that.

::

You really summed that up

::

just perfectly for me.

::

Thanks.

::

I think also the other thing

::

that I contemplate in

::

isolation is that coming

::

back to that concept of truth-telling,

::

that truth-telling is a

::

really lonely space because

::

there aren't very many

::

people who are willing to

::

look at something honestly and

::

because it's too hard, it hurts too much,

::

it's too painful.

::

What can you say about that experience?

::

How do we get to the point

::

where we're willing to

::

radically accept what is

::

true rather than continuing

::

to take these drugs?

::

Yeah.

::

And this will lead us also

::

into our next existential fear,

::

which is fear of meaninglessness,

::

because one of the big

::

antidotes to the fear of

::

meaninglessness is telling

::

the truth and having kind

::

of truth lead the way into

::

a life that is

::

fundamentally worth living for you.

::

So fear of meaninglessness

::

is our fear that ultimately

::

whatever we do is really

::

ultimately meaningless.

::

Eventually the sun's going

::

to go out and our earth's

::

going to blow up and the

::

universe doesn't care and

::

there'll be no record of

::

any of this and none of

::

this will have mattered.

::

And especially when you come

::

from religion where you're

::

used to some kind of like

::

grand overarching story

::

that can be really

::

disorienting because then it's like,

::

what's the point?

::

What's the point of all of this suffering?

::

Why not just push the big

::

red button and end all this?

::

Because what is truly the

::

point to any of this?

::

And this was the one that

::

really challenged me the most.

::

Usually,

::

at least one of these fears will

::

kind of scare you more than others.

::

And this was the fear that

::

truly almost killed me.

::

And one of the ways that we

::

combat this fear,

::

and I've heard philosophers

::

use different language,

::

but it's essentially the same message.

::

which is that if life is

::

sandcastles and the wave's

::

going to come in and take it anyway,

::

if you are in the mindset

::

that I'm going to make a

::

sandcastle that's going to

::

last forever and it's going

::

to be so meaningful,

::

then you're not going to

::

build sandcastles when you

::

realize that the wave

::

always comes and you're

::

just going to not do anything.

::

But if you build sandcastles

::

purely for the childlike

::

joy and wonder of seeing

::

what happens when you flip

::

that bucket over and you

::

put your little flag on it,

::

you make a little moat and

::

you're just so in the

::

experience that it's

::

meaningful in and of itself.

::

That's the antidote to meaninglessness.

::

It's not finding meaning in

::

some grand story that

::

matters 10,000 years from now.

::

It's finding meaning in the

::

way that we did as children,

::

where we were building sandcastles,

::

not caring that it wouldn't last forever,

::

but because we were so

::

excited to try to do the

::

challenge of building a moat.

::

And when the wave comes in

::

and the water kind of

::

surrounds the castle, you know,

::

you can see children just full of...

::

Joy, just pure joy,

::

even though that sandcastle

::

will eventually crumble in

::

an hour or two.

::

And so the shift to move

::

into that space where life

::

is meaningful in the experience of it,

::

in the ride of it.

::

takes a lot of truth telling.

::

And one of the benefits of

::

going through the place

::

that we've been through

::

where it's really dark and

::

you feel really alone and

::

you're really lost is that

::

it forces you to be honest

::

about what that life looks like for you.

::

Because pretense and ego and

::

accomplishments and your

::

parents being proud of you

::

or not proud of you,

::

all of that is meaningless

::

when you're really in the

::

void basing meaningless.

::

and so the only thing that

::

can survive that place is

::

your deepest truths about

::

what matters so for me it

::

was i don't know what's

::

going on with ultimate

::

reality i'm alone i'm going

::

through this but i know

::

that my children that

::

they're that they matter

::

and i don't care that the

::

universe doesn't care about

::

them if it's their first

::

day of kindergarten even if

::

even if we're the only life

::

in the universe that

::

eventually goes out or

::

whatever is going on with reality

::

I know that them looking for

::

my face after their first

::

day of kindergarten and

::

finding me and lighting up,

::

that that moment is

::

meaningful no matter what's

::

going on ultimately.

::

And so that was my first

::

piece was that my children mattered.

::

And I could feel that they

::

mattered and I cared about

::

their experience in the world.

::

And then I started to build

::

more into that.

::

I care about reducing suffering.

::

I care about helping people

::

be able to leave religion

::

and do it with more tools

::

than I was able to do it.

::

So hopefully their journey

::

is easier than mine was.

::

That gives me a lot of

::

meaning and purpose.

::

when people tell me that

::

I've made their journey

::

easier in some way.

::

Conversations like this just

::

fill me up with so much joy,

::

not because this

::

conversation is necessarily

::

going to change the world,

::

but just because I'm so

::

enjoying resonating with

::

you and being honest with

::

you in this space.

::

And so I started adding to

::

things of what are the

::

sandcastles that I enjoy

::

building just for the sake

::

of building them,

::

just for the experience.

::

And the shift of moving into

::

that for my meaning versus

::

looking for ultimate

::

meaning really did save my

::

life and change my life.

::

In the course of two years,

::

I had a new career as an

::

atheist spiritual director,

::

which is a title that I

::

made up just because this

::

is the work that I want to do.

::

And my relationships changed

::

and my friendships changed

::

and what I do with my time changes.

::

And I started saying no to

::

more things and saying yes

::

to the things that I wanted to do.

::

And it takes a lot of truth

::

telling and honesty to

::

really map out what that

::

path looks like for you.

::

And then your life can get

::

better when you're in that dark place.

::

It truly can.

::

Well,

::

I'm just over here crying because I'm

::

resonating with so much of

::

what you're saying.

::

And it's a beautiful thing to contemplate.

::

The sandcastle idea for me,

::

especially lately,

::

has been just the

::

appreciation of nature and

::

the world in general.

::

And I put up this little

::

video a couple of days ago.

::

I was so grateful to be able

::

to take this little trip with my partner.

::

We went to Colorado.

::

And I'd been to Colorado,

::

but I'd never really spent

::

like a ton of time.

::

And we went to Rocky

::

Mountain National Park.

::

And it was a life-changing day.

::

Because I was just spending

::

time looking at beautiful

::

things I'd never seen before.

::

And as we were leaving the park,

::

the sun was coming through the clouds.

::

in this way that I had never seen before.

::

It was these great rays of

::

sunshine shining on the

::

mountains and shining on the river.

::

And I told him to stop the car,

::

stop the car, I have to get out.

::

And I got out and I just

::

started taking pictures and

::

videos and the wind was

::

blowing everywhere.

::

And Samuel got out of the car,

::

and he's like, what are you doing?

::

And I said, just look at all this.

::

Look at how beautiful it is.

::

When are you ever going to

::

see the light like this again?

::

And the sandcastle, for me,

::

I'm going to have to go

::

back and rerecord this.

::

But I'm not going to,

::

because I want to

::

prioritize authenticity.

::

Just watch me cry, everybody.

::

In fact, please cry.

::

Please cry along with me.

::

The sandcastle for me is the

::

realization that every

::

experience that I have is

::

the only time anybody's

::

ever going to have that experience.

::

Every time I look at that mountain,

::

the colors are going to be

::

different because of the

::

time of the day and the

::

season of the year and what

::

the weather is doing that day.

::

And the idea that there are

::

an infinity of experiences,

::

just like that one,

::

that are both totally

::

unique and also the same in so many ways.

::

How do we get to the point

::

where that's what life is

::

for me right now?

::

There's so much I still don't understand,

::

but at least I have that,

::

the savoring of those

::

really unique moments that

::

I can hold on to.

::

Yes.

::

And if those,

::

I don't think maybe it's

::

reasonable to say I've

::

never at least met someone

::

who's in that moment all the time,

::

because then it almost

::

becomes meaningless in a different way.

::

Like if every moment is equally meaningful,

::

maybe it all loses its

::

meaning in some way.

::

But increasing the amount of

::

experiences you have like

::

that where you snap out of

::

your neuroticism and you

::

see what's happening,

::

like you truly see it,

::

just like you see the sun

::

and you realize that

::

there's just some

::

preciousness in this moment

::

that we're never going to see again.

::

we can actually improve that.

::

So maybe we're never perfect at it.

::

Maybe we're never crying

::

with just 100% of our day

::

crying with how much meaning it is.

::

I don't even know if it's

::

good to be overfilled with

::

that much meaning.

::

But I do think we can

::

increase those experiences

::

and you can build your life

::

around waking yourself up

::

to that reality.

::

And this is why in spirituality,

::

there's always kind of

::

images of eyes everywhere

::

in almost every religion,

::

including Christianity.

::

Including in the Mormon temples,

::

there'll be an eye,

::

all-seeing eye somewhere in

::

some of our temple buildings.

::

And it shows up everywhere

::

in spirituality because

::

it's this whisper of, hey,

::

if you can snap out of what

::

your brain's neurotically

::

obsessing about right now,

::

if you can wake up and see

::

there's something really

::

beautiful happening here.

::

Your child just asked you to pick them up.

::

And yes, your back hurts,

::

but actually you don't know

::

that this is the last time

::

they're going to ask you to do that.

::

because the next time that

::

they ask they're going to

::

be too heavy yeah right and

::

as a mother like that just

::

makes me weep and just hold

::

that child just grab that

::

child and all of a sudden

::

this chore of of my toddler

::

kind of pulling up at me

::

becomes this incredibly sacred moment

::

And we can actually get better.

::

I have reminders around me

::

all the time to wake up, wake up.

::

And one that I use is in the shower.

::

So I tend towards depression.

::

I tend towards neuroticism by nature.

::

So these things are not easy for me.

::

There are some people who

::

move through nihilism and they're like,

::

oh,

::

I'm going to create meaning and life

::

is so beautiful and great.

::

And they just literally just

::

go right to that place

::

because life is great.

::

I was not one of those people.

::

I needed a lot of tools and

::

a lot of help because I'm

::

pessimistic and skeptical

::

and broody and neurotic and

::

all the things.

::

And so for something like taking a shower,

::

most of the time when I'm taking a shower,

::

if I'm not paying attention,

::

I'm brooding about something.

::

But if I actually have that moment of, hey,

::

wake up, wake up,

::

then I'll take a shower in

::

a whole different way.

::

I'll sit down in the shower

::

with my hands open.

::

And I'll try to explain to

::

an alien what it feels like

::

to have hot water droplets

::

fall onto your body, right?

::

I really get into the sensation of it.

::

And it becomes incredibly

::

pleasurable when you're

::

paying attention to it to that degree.

::

And then I think of the

::

millions of humans for whom

::

a hot shower was

::

would have been something

::

that only a king gets and only rarely,

::

that it would have been

::

such a pleasurable

::

experience that they would

::

have given almost anything to experience.

::

And here I am in the shower

::

brooding about some

::

argument I'm having in my head,

::

totally missing that having

::

a hot shower is a very rare

::

and pleasurable human experience.

::

And so I can have it.

::

It's the same shower.

::

It's literally the same

::

shower in my house.

::

And I can have an incredibly

::

negative experience where

::

I'm battling someone in my

::

head or brooding about something.

::

Or I can really have almost

::

a transcendent experience

::

focusing on the pleasure of

::

a hot shower and how rare

::

it is in human history to

::

be experiencing it.

::

Two totally different

::

experiences in the shower.

::

The only difference was how

::

much I was paying attention,

::

how much I was awake during that.

::

And I can do that with my children,

::

and I can do that with doing the dishes,

::

and I can do that even driving my car.

::

It's so boring driving a car.

::

Then I start thinking about

::

there are sound waves that

::

are hitting my ear and I

::

experience that as music.

::

And sometimes I don't like the music.

::

It doesn't do anything.

::

And then sometimes the music

::

makes my body kind of

::

wiggle in this weird way.

::

And if I really pay attention to it,

::

I am flying through space

::

and I'm in this car that I

::

don't even understand how it works.

::

I certainly couldn't build one.

::

And sound waves are hitting

::

my ear and we're dancing in the car.

::

And all of a sudden it

::

becomes this really cool

::

experience that I'm

::

experiencing with my children.

::

And just a moment ago,

::

it was just a boring car ride.

::

And so this is so much of

::

what spirituality is and

::

what it's done for me,

::

especially separating it from religion,

::

is really waking up to the

::

preciousness of these moments.

::

And it's really a big piece

::

of what moved me from a

::

place where wanting to die were just

::

instead than being just

::

overwhelmed that I got the

::

opportunity to be alive and

::

to experience this, not as a flower,

::

but actually to experience

::

this as a human where we

::

get to talk about it.

::

It's amazing.

::

And you can just come to

::

that place of awe and

::

gratitude by learning how

::

to cue yourself to wake up

::

and what that looks like is

::

different for everyone.

::

Yeah, that's so beautiful.

::

Thank you for that.

::

And I think maybe you're right.

::

We can't do it all the time.

::

We can't always be that

::

awake and aware because it's exhausting,

::

right?

::

We do need rest from it.

::

So maybe we just start with

::

one thing and maybe we wake

::

up in the morning and say,

::

I'm gonna find one thing

::

today that I'm gonna savor,

::

or I'm gonna see it differently,

::

or I'm gonna experience all

::

of the senses of it.

::

I'm gonna describe those

::

senses to myself so that I

::

have that moment so that

::

it's sort of ingrained in me

::

And, you know, just one thing.

::

And that's, I think,

::

a good place for our fellow

::

revolutionaries to start is

::

just find one thing to have

::

about in a day and to see differently.

::

And that can be your

::

sandcastle for the day.

::

The other thing that that

::

you talked about that, of course,

::

resonates with me as a

::

mother is that like last

::

time of picking up a child.

::

And the sad thing about

::

human experience is that I

::

can't remember when the

::

last time was that I picked

::

up each of my children.

::

And that's beautiful and sad, right?

::

Because I've had so many

::

experiences with them since

::

then that were equally as

::

meaningful and have sort of

::

replaced that experience.

::

And I'm gonna continue to

::

have those experiences and

::

those memories and stuff.

::

And I don't know,

::

the last thing that I sort

::

of come down to also is that, you know,

::

We you and I are somewhat

::

allergic to truth claims, right,

::

or to anybody telling us how things are.

::

And so for me,

::

the next contemplation is like, OK,

::

I can have these wonderful

::

spiritual experiences out

::

in nature where I touch the

::

rocks and the trees and I

::

look at everything and I

::

feel the wind on my face.

::

And I wonder if even that is

::

a truth claim.

::

that we're on a physical

::

planet experiencing these things,

::

you know?

::

And so that's sort of the next,

::

that's the next thing to

::

contemplate like down the road.

::

Yeah, for that question,

::

something that gives me a

::

lot of peace when it comes

::

to questions like that

::

where you're really

::

challenging what's going on with reality,

::

is that to me,

::

the only thing that can't

::

be an illusion is consciousness,

::

which is that there's a

::

quality to experience at all.

::

That's the only thing that

::

can't be an illusion,

::

that there is a quality to experience.

::

Now,

::

we could still be computer characters

::

in some Sims alien game.

::

There's so many things that

::

could be possible about

::

what's actually going on with reality.

::

But the only thing that

::

can't be an illusion is

::

that we are experiencing something.

::

Even if we're wrong about that,

::

there's something to be wrong about,

::

which just goes back to the

::

fact that we're experiencing something.

::

So that,

::

because of that kind of ground level,

::

that there's something to

::

the nature of experience

::

and to the quality of experience,

::

that gives us a place to

::

have some ground to build from.

::

That even if this is just, you know,

::

the sun coming through is

::

just pixels on a computer

::

game on some alien program,

::

you're still having an

::

experience with it.

::

Something's happening in your body.

::

Something's resonating in your body.

::

And so that to me gives me a

::

lot of peace that I can

::

still build that meaning

::

and those experiences into

::

my life and not have to

::

know why that is the case,

::

why we do that.

::

I really don't know.

::

I don't know if it's, you know,

::

if our subconscious is just

::

so complex that it's

::

basically like a God.

::

I don't know if we're...

::

on an alien computer.

::

I don't know if we have a soul.

::

I don't know any of that,

::

but I do know that

::

conversations like this fill my cup.

::

Cause for me, what you feel out in nature,

::

I feel with words and I

::

don't feel it out in nature.

::

I actually don't spend a lot

::

of time in nature.

::

It doesn't move me the same

::

way that words move me.

::

So for me, this conversation,

::

regardless of what is

::

ultimately true is so

::

meaningful in the

::

experience of it for me.

::

And that can be true without

::

any other truth claims.

::

You don't have to believe

::

any other thing about

::

reality to just know that I

::

prefer this experience to

::

this experience.

::

We can start there.

::

And that helped me a lot

::

because that really

::

required no truth claims to

::

start building my life.

::

And I still do that.

::

I don't hold to a lot of truth claims.

::

I still have that allergy to truth claims.

::

I may always do.

::

And it doesn't mean that I'm right.

::

It just means that I come

::

from religious trauma and

::

I'm very sensitive to truth claims.

::

But having that experience as your basis,

::

you can build from there,

::

even not knowing anything

::

about what is ultimately true.

::

And that was really helpful for me.

::

Yeah, that space of, I don't know,

::

was a great space for me too.

::

And I spent a lot of time

::

there as I deconstructed

::

and almost every question

::

that I asked myself or that

::

someone else asked me, the answer was,

::

I don't know.

::

And I still have a lot of those,

::

but I love that space.

::

I love the,

::

I don't know space because in Mormonism,

::

We knew everything, right?

::

We had an answer for everything.

::

And I think a lot of

::

religions do sort of have a pat answer.

::

And then there are those

::

other little things that I don't know,

::

we don't really know,

::

God will work it out kind of things.

::

But I loved the idea of

::

removing the surety from my life,

::

even though it was really scary at first.

::

being able to consider other

::

ideas as valid and as

::

meaningful and as important

::

was such a new space to me

::

that I loved it.

::

And I still do love it.

::

Because in Mormonism, we would always say,

::

oh, aren't you cute?

::

You have some of the ideas,

::

but they're not all correct.

::

And we're the only ones-

::

It's so condescending, right?

::

It is so condescending how

::

horrible of a hubris that

::

is and how much it prevents

::

us from learning and

::

growing as human beings.

::

I loved that I don't know space.

::

That's a good shift for

::

truth seekers to make

::

because if you're a truth

::

seeker by nature or by core

::

value and then you find

::

that there really isn't a

::

lot of truth to be had,

::

that can be really disorienting.

::

And so if you change that

::

truth seeking because

::

there's ultimate truth and

::

I'm going to find it,

::

if you change that into

::

this is my favorite game and

::

Where, hey,

::

this is what I'm going on with

::

reality with me.

::

What's going on with your reality?

::

What do you think is going

::

on with reality?

::

That's essentially how you

::

and I are playing right now, right?

::

Like we're flying through

::

space and we have these

::

bodies and we're trying to

::

figure out what's going on.

::

And even though we're in

::

this place where it's just

::

a lot of I don't know,

::

we're still both finding

::

joy in this new game,

::

which is I really love just

::

playing what the hell is

::

going on with reality.

::

Let's talk about it.

::

You know,

::

that's a new game that can be enjoyable,

::

too,

::

once you shift away from there having

::

to be truth in order to play that game.

::

Yeah.

::

So you've brought us all the

::

way back around, I think,

::

to the truth-telling,

::

truth-asking question.

::

And where I think I would

::

like to sort of wrap up

::

this part of our

::

conversation is the contemplation of,

::

is it worth it?

::

Considering everything we've

::

talked about where some

::

people are much safer with

::

the construct of religion

::

and with the construct of

::

sort of having answers to things,

::

Knowing how problematic that

::

is for some people.

::

And then where we've been in

::

a space of truth telling

::

where some of our truths

::

are really uncomfortable

::

and they can be really

::

hurtful to other people and

::

other people's experience.

::

Is it worth it to consider

::

that your worldview may be

::

completely false?

::

that you need to completely

::

tear it down in order to

::

exist authentically as a

::

human being i think you and

::

i have answered that

::

question for ourselves but

::

what about other people

::

yeah i think about this a

::

lot a lot a lot a lot

::

especially as i consider

::

the ethics of the kinds of

::

things that i talk about

::

publicly and the kind of

::

coaching that i do i think

::

about this all the time i

::

could sit down for the rest

::

of the day and talk about this with you

::

was first leaving

::

religion and truth really

::

mattered to me and I

::

figured that it mattered

::

for everyone else too, I was like, oh,

::

I'll just tell everybody

::

what's going on with Joseph

::

Smith and they'll understand, right?

::

Like, I'm just trying to burn bridges left,

::

right and center.

::

And I was really under this

::

apprehension that like,

::

just burn this down.

::

Like we can do better than this.

::

None of this is true.

::

And I've learned a lot since then.

::

And one of the things that

::

really changed me was a

::

friend of mine going

::

through a faith crisis and

::

attempting suicide.

::

And I started to dig in more

::

to human psychology and how

::

much we can handle.

::

And I learned some things

::

that changed my views on

::

how aggressive I want to be

::

with some of these things.

::

So for example,

::

people who tend towards

::

fundamentalism have a

::

higher need for closure.

::

They need it more to

::

psychologically function,

::

just to get out of the bed.

::

They need a little bit more

::

surety and a little less chaos.

::

For some people also,

::

religious community is a

::

part of how they've survived something.

::

So I feel like it would be

::

unethical for me as a white person

::

educated woman to walk into

::

the deep South and say,

::

Jesus isn't coming.

::

There's something that feels

::

unethical about that

::

because this people survive

::

slavery by bonding over

::

this idea of retributive

::

justice and that there would be that,

::

that someone cared that there were,

::

that there was slavery and

::

the injustices of slavery.

::

And so,

::

It feels unethical also when

::

we look at exposure therapy.

::

So if you were afraid of

::

spiders and I put a spider

::

on your lap without your consent,

::

you would be more afraid of

::

spiders after that session.

::

But if you consented and said,

::

I'm gonna work on my fear of spiders,

::

That's actually the only way

::

to remove your fear of

::

spiders is with a therapist.

::

You look at a picture of a

::

spider and you get a little

::

closer and then a spider in

::

a cage across the room and

::

then you move a little bit closer.

::

And over time,

::

you do exposure therapy to

::

things that are really scary to you.

::

And so I have to remember

::

that I didn't get to where

::

I am overnight.

::

I slowly deconstructed over

::

20 years because our brain

::

can only handle about a 1%

::

change of worldview at a time.

::

We can't physically do more than that.

::

You cannot reorganize your

::

brain and all of the neural

::

pathways that you have overnight.

::

To expect someone to do that

::

is like being mad at a baby

::

for not running.

::

Like they physically cannot.

::

And so for a lot of – and

::

there's a lot more reasons.

::

But for a lot of reasons,

::

I've been more cautious

::

about the wisdom of

::

someone's subconscious when

::

something is really scary for them.

::

I've had people come up to me and say,

::

like, there's something about you that,

::

like –

::

brings up fear and brings up

::

feelings in them when i'm

::

around them and i

::

appreciate that they could

::

say that out loud and so i

::

think there's wisdom

::

sometimes in our

::

subconscious saying i'm not

::

going to go there because i

::

don't think that i could

::

handle it sometimes our

::

subconscious is making that

::

decision and maybe it's

::

wise that it's doing so and

::

so when it comes to

::

if we have to choose between

::

truth and well-being,

::

I think everybody has to

::

make this choice.

::

I used to say truth.

::

I now say well-being.

::

That if this truth is going

::

to cause you to kill

::

yourself and put untold

::

trauma throughout your

::

story and your children's

::

genetics for generations,

::

that I choose well-being,

::

which is what is...

::

I want religion to get

::

better for the people who need it.

::

And because at one time I did too.

::

At one time,

::

the things that I'm saying now

::

wouldn't have resonated to

::

me when I was so entrenched in Mormonism.

::

I couldn't have even

::

understood this conversation at all.

::

So I'm much more generous

::

now with the idea that

::

sometimes being an atheist

::

is a privilege.

::

It's an education privilege.

::

It's a privilege that you

::

can even exist outside of

::

your religious community.

::

There's a lot of privileges

::

that can go on with being an atheist.

::

I'm more aware of people's psychology.

::

I'm more aware of the wisdom

::

of people's subconscious.

::

And I'm more ethically aware

::

of people need to consent to this.

::

They can't be pushed here or

::

they're going to cling

::

harder to whatever security

::

blankets that they have

::

because you've scared them

::

in a way that they didn't consent to.

::

So it's a lot more complex for me now.

::

For now,

::

I really meet people when I'm one-on-one.

::

I really just go with

::

however much they're

::

consenting to go with me.

::

And then publicly,

::

I try to be a little bit

::

careful that if I'm ever

::

kind of blowing up someone's worldview,

::

dropping some hard truths

::

that I always follow it up

::

with tools that will help

::

or else I think that it's

::

unethical because I think

::

there's something,

::

there's something hard

::

about Christians saying,

::

I don't care that you're

::

going to suffer for in hell forever.

::

This is the truth,

::

but there's something

::

equally icky about an atheist saying,

::

I don't care if you're

::

going to kill yourself.

::

If you find this out, this is the truth.

::

And so I don't care.

::

Like I want to care.

::

I want to, I want to care.

::

And for people like my brother, I,

::

who's an addict and he found

::

Jesus as part of his recovery,

::

statistically,

::

it would be a threat to his

::

sobriety to go through as

::

much deconstruction as I did,

::

where you're completely

::

psychologically unhinged.

::

You have to have a lot of

::

privilege to get through that space,

::

especially if you're an

::

addict and you have that history.

::

And so I want religion to get better

::

for him because helpful

::

truths that tend towards

::

well-being to me are more

::

important than truths that

::

I don't even know are true.

::

You know,

::

I don't even know if what I think

::

is true is ultimately true.

::

So why am I going to kill someone over it?

::

think that we can have better tools

::

to deal with, you know,

::

harsh truths and still come

::

out the other side with wellbeing.

::

I am still dedicated to that

::

path because that was my

::

path and I want to help

::

people on that path,

::

but I am not now so

::

prideful to say that that

::

path is the best for everyone.

::

Yeah.

::

Thank you for that because we,

::

are so individual,

::

our minds are so complicated.

::

And what worked for us, we can,

::

like you say,

::

give some helpful tools or

::

we can give some guidance,

::

but ultimately it's gonna

::

be so different for every person.

::

And I've often said that I

::

don't ever want my parents

::

to leave the church because

::

I don't think that

::

psychologically they could

::

really handle the burden of that.

::

And that kind of brings me

::

around to another

::

little point that we can

::

consider here at the end

::

for fellow truth tellers out there.

::

I know this has happened to you.

::

It's happened to me.

::

We get a lot of anger that

::

comes our way when we say

::

these uncomfortable truths.

::

And I always want to dig

::

down a little bit and to

::

help people understand that

::

anger usually comes from a

::

secondary place like shame or fear.

::

And a lot of the truths that

::

we tell kind of confront people's

::

dearly held beliefs or their

::

pills or their drugs or

::

their comforts or whatever.

::

And so I think under that

::

anger is some fear and

::

maybe also some shame over

::

having believed for a long time.

::

Can you talk a little bit

::

about how you deal with

::

people who come at you with

::

anger for being a truth teller?

::

Yeah.

::

So you're right.

::

I do get this a lot.

::

And the thing that really

::

allows me to be in a space

::

where I'm getting a lot of

::

heat all the time is really

::

understanding the brain

::

psychology of what's going on with them.

::

So the example I use is if a

::

10-year-old kid comes over

::

and starts kicking you in the shins,

::

you'd say, what the heck?

::

Stop it.

::

What are you doing?

::

You could even get angry.

::

But if the mother comes over and says,

::

I'm sorry, my child has autism.

::

There was just a really loud noise.

::

He's really struggling.

::

Instantly,

::

because I now understand this child,

::

I no longer care that

::

they're kicking my shins

::

and I'm willing to help.

::

And I've forgotten all about it.

::

I'm no longer angry because

::

I understand what's going

::

on with this kid in a way

::

that drives my compassion.

::

And so we can do the same

::

thing when we get that

::

identity response for people,

::

that if your truths and

::

beliefs are attached to your identity,

::

meaning your beliefs give

::

you a sense of who you are

::

and your life and your

::

values and your foundation

::

and your marriage and your

::

relationship and your

::

beliefs and your morality

::

and literally everything about you.

::

is attached to your beliefs

::

then if i say something

::

that attacks your beliefs

::

essentially to your

::

subconscious i'm saying you

::

are no one and what you've

::

built your life on isn't

::

true so you're nothing like

::

that's what i'm saying to

::

their to their subconscious

::

brain you are nothing so of

::

course there is literally nothing else

::

that your ego brain is going

::

to do except double down

::

and defend the things that

::

are threatening your

::

identity and your belonging

::

and literally the

::

foundation of everything

::

about you because your

::

subconscious knows that to

::

redo that is going to suck.

::

And in the case of being

::

evolutionary creatures,

::

to leave your tribe is literally death.

::

It feels like dying.

::

So having compassion and

::

understanding that whatever

::

I said hit something in

::

their identity and they now

::

need to defend their

::

self-worth and their

::

identity by saying

::

something back to me is the

::

same as the kid kicking my shins.

::

Like I don't necessarily like it,

::

but I really deeply

::

understand why you need to do this,

::

deeply understand why you

::

need to do this.

::

And I remember being in that

::

place and I understand the

::

religious brain and I

::

understand your need to

::

defend your identity and

::

everything about you.

::

And that unless you know

::

that that's what your brain is doing,

::

there's no other choice for

::

your brain to do than to

::

just do that double down thing.

::

And so to me,

::

the more understanding that

::

we can have for human

::

nature increases our

::

capacity for compassion.

::

And then we can say the

::

things that we feel called to say,

::

just because this is our authentic truth.

::

And part of what gives us

::

meaning and purpose is to

::

have these kinds of conversations.

::

And, you know,

::

if I get emails after this

::

saying that I'm going to go to hell,

::

I don't necessarily like them.

::

They don't really make my day.

::

But I really understand why

::

you felt like you need to

::

send that email.

::

And then that makes it tolerable,

::

I guess I should say.

::

Yeah.

::

And so for those who are

::

considering the possibility

::

of deconstruction on one level or another,

::

or considering the

::

possibility of diving into

::

some of these harder questions,

::

I guess it's a contemplation

::

of how much do you think

::

you can handle and maybe

::

making some small,

::

slow changes little by little.

::

And also the realization

::

that a lot of people don't

::

really understand is that, you know,

::

when you or I or anybody

::

else sort of challenges

::

somebody's worldview or their beliefs,

::

they feel like we're

::

bringing a burning torch into a forest,

::

into a pine forest.

::

And what some people don't

::

understand is that forest

::

fires are necessary.

::

They're cleansing,

::

they're healing because

::

they burn out all this

::

undergrowth that's taking

::

up energy and resources.

::

And what happens is when a

::

natural forest fire occurs

::

is that all of that

::

undergrowth gets burnt down

::

and then underneath the ashes,

::

more new growth comes up.

::

And the trees that survive

::

the fire are stronger and

::

more able to continue to grow

::

than the trees that don't survive it.

::

And so when I look at it,

::

I look at it sort of like that,

::

like when the forest fire comes,

::

like not all the trees survive,

::

but what comes after it is

::

this beautiful new growth.

::

And it's a terrible and a

::

beautiful contemplation at the same time.

::

so yeah it is hard because

::

I do think it's

::

unethical to just push

::

someone there because when

::

you're talking about a

::

forest fire you know in

::

hindsight both of us can

::

look back and say oh

::

there's some beautiful

::

undergrowth happening

::

because of this forest fire

::

but when we were both in it

::

it feels like you're dying

::

like you are dying your identity is dying

::

like you are dead you are

::

walking around dead during

::

that time um you're on fire

::

you're dying and so i i

::

think we need to give more

::

words to that space because

::

if someone um would have

::

been able to hold my hand

::

in this space and say oh

::

here's some language for

::

the existential fears that

::

you're facing you're going

::

through a forest fire but

::

here are here's some of the

::

undergrowth possibilities

::

that are just around the corner

::

It feels like you're dying

::

because your identity is dying.

::

But the beautiful thing is

::

you're going to be able to

::

consider ideas in the

::

future so much more freely

::

because you're not

::

attaching your identity to

::

certain truth claims anymore.

::

And that's just going to

::

give you so much more freedom and joy.

::

If someone could have shown

::

me some of those things,

::

that really would have

::

helped me because at the

::

time I felt like I'm dead

::

and I'm always going to be dead.

::

Like I'm just dead now.

::

Like I'm just going through

::

the motions and keeping my children alive,

::

but inside I'm dead.

::

And now I have a lot more

::

language for how beautiful

::

that space is and how

::

beautiful that death is.

::

But I don't think that we

::

have to do that totally

::

alone without language and

::

conversations and other

::

people who have gone

::

through it and story.

::

We can go through that forest fire,

::

I think knowing that it's a forest fire.

::

that's not going to entirely kill us,

::

but it's going to change us.

::

And that's what I try to do now,

::

just because I hope it

::

makes that journey a little

::

bit easier for one other person.

::

And it did certainly for me.

::

And this actually brings us

::

all the way full circle

::

because that's where I

::

found you on Mormon Stories.

::

And you gave me language for

::

everything I was going

::

through existentially at that time,

::

or I had already contemplated,

::

but wasn't sure how to talk

::

about or how to frame.

::

So can you please,

::

for everybody else out there,

::

tell them how they can find

::

you and plug all the things you do.

::

Sure.

::

So my book,

::

No Nonsense Spirituality is on Amazon.

::

I am on TikTok.

::

I've taken the summer off to

::

be home with my children,

::

but I'll be back to TikTok soon.

::

I'm hoping to start a

::

YouTube channel to talk

::

about like specific tools

::

for when you're in this place,

::

which would have been

::

really helpful for me if I

::

could have just had short

::

little videos to help me

::

give glimpses to what was

::

going on with me during that time.

::

and and tools to help so i

::

hope to start that soon um

::

and on social media i'm

::

just always under no

::

nonsense spirituality and

::

yeah i just i really have

::

enjoyed this conversation

::

with you today we had some

::

beautiful emotional

::

resonances and we just went

::

to some really beautiful

::

places yeah thank you so

::

much for that at i don't

::

know how many people have

::

seen this movie but um

::

Peter Pan with Robin Williams.

::

And he's sort of like in

::

this play space where he

::

goes back to be Peter Pan.

::

And then it's time to go

::

home and the game is over.

::

And the kid says to him,

::

that was a great game.

::

And that's how I feel about this today.

::

That was perfect.

::

I love that.

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