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The Think Free Rebellion - Rob McPhillips EPISODE 25, 13th October 2020
The Stand Up Routine That Lead To 95,000+ Breakups
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The Stand Up Routine That Lead To 95,000+ Breakups

Daniel Sloss's Jigsaw standup routine has led to 95,000+ breakups. Here's a clip of him talking about it on Conan O Brien;


We discussed the topics raised.



What were your thoughts on watching? The jigsaw. Well, it was quite harrowing. Well, I think we need we need more of the percentages of the healthy marriages that do work out rather than focusing on all the ones that don't.


I think his point was exactly that the ones that are breaking is because they are together for the wrong reasons and it won't last at all.


But at the same time, I think it goes to an extreme that I don't believe there will be an absolute perfect person for you. You're not going to love like the one hundred percent of that first. And there's always going to be something that is not there. But you just kind of work with that because what you love is more than what you don't love and you make it work. So that's where I disagree with him, because he makes it like you can't it's like it's not there's no malleability in these jigsaw.


It's like the piece either fits or then throw it away. It's just to me, it's a bit too much. But that was my thought about it. I found it funny when he was saying you spent all your life being so busy working on your own jigsaw and they spend all your life being so busy working on theirs, and then we try and merge the two together.


It's just like, yeah, I think that's us.


And he does mention common goals. I think that simple.


And you need to have some sort of common vision to be able compatibility agenda goals.


But yeah, I agree with a lot of what he was saying, but some of it was just a bit too cynical and a bit too doom and gloom and whatever. Yeah.


I mean, I think, first of all, you have to put it in the context.


There is a stand up and he's also done a TED talk. And I think what he's brought up is a serious issue. But he has done a TED talk where he talks about like himself and Ricky Gervais and Frankie Boyle and basically saying that when you're doing standup to entertain you playing a character, his role is to take things to extreme. You shouldn't take it seriously.


But I think what he what he picked up on what he's pointing out is the governments have done some research and they say that on average, it takes people six years to leave a marriage from when they they're thinking about it. So when they actually pull the trigger and I know when I'm thinking back like I knew my marriage was over a long time before, but you've got children and how's that going to work out for them? And so there's all these kind of things that mean that you you kind of stay together, unhappy for years.


And I think that's that's what he's he's done and there are people who are needing to be in a relationship rather than a great relationship, and because of that, they're getting some sense of validation and whatever from being in the relationship. And I think those are the relationships that are vulnerable and that he's close to break up. And of course, it's not his cause that he's just made people ask questions that I would have asked sooner or later anyway. So.


Did you have you seen times where that has played into, like I said, as played into my past relationships, I can I can think of instances. Did you. Are there things that, if you thought of that at the time, would have changed how you behaved or how you whether you stayed in or not in the relationship? I know I was a victim of that sort of fairy tale and, you know, you sort of just stumble into a relationship where somebody sort of scenario and then you try to change them to fit what you want and they try to change you to fit.


Well, they won. And you know, what worked was a. I do think, as I've said, that. Yeah, he's gone to the extreme that nobody is going to he's basically at the extreme is saying you need someone who's going to slide into your jigsaw, which, like you said, you've got to Jigsaw's. No one ever is going to. You need to let go of the jigsaw and build a new one. So what can we learn from it?


Is he kind of not seeing the particular program, is he kind of like saying because the show consists of different shape, the pieces, that those pieces are never going to go together? Is that kind of weird that you thought of that?


No, I'll try. I'll try and give you a summary. So basically, he said when he was seven, he asked his dad what was the meaning of life, and he said his dad answered him perfectly. You gave him the perfect metaphor. He said, well, son, he said, life is like a jigsaw. And you've got the Four Corners, which are like family. Friends were hobbies. And then maybe someone will die and you'll have a piece missing.


You'll have different friends you might change this about. You might have to change hobbies for work and make a compromise. And so then he said, well, okay, so what goes in the middle? And he said, well, one day someone will walk into your life and make it complete and they'll fit perfectly into the middle of your jigsaw, just like your mom did for me. And you'll live happily ever after and they'll completely. And so he lived his young life, finished along in his 20s, trying meeting someone and then changing to please them so that they would fit into the jigsaw.


And basically what he's saying and. The point he's trying to make is that he's rebelling against the idea that being in a relationship makes you better, like from sort of smug, arrogant social media posts of look at me, I'm with this one I love so much when that isn't the truth of their relationship. So he's saying it's okay to be single. He said, why is society pressuring everyone to be in a relationship and to prove that they're happy?


And then he says the three particular things that it tells you, that you can't be happy without a relationship, you're broken without a relationship, and you need someone to completely. And so that's basically the jigsaw metaphor. I don't think we need people to completely and I don't think we can be absent of happiness, but I definitely do think like relationships, a healthy relationship brings something to a person's life that they wouldn't have necessarily had without it. And I think there's even research to say that if you've been in a healthy long term relationship, you live longer and have better health and all that sort of stuff.


So we kind of hear what he's saying. What do you think people can be complete?


It's not yeah, it's definitely not the perfect analogy and it doesn't all make sense. It's still quite skewed in his own head.


Well, actually, the the there's a study. That's been done, John F. Kennedy was in it's a cohort of Harvard University and they studied them as they came out and they studied them through their life. And so this was John at John F. Kennedy was in university, and it's the Harvard. Some anyway, it's been going like that 80 odd years, and so it's had a number of people managing the study and the last two have done TED talks on saying basically everyone throughout their life has opportunities.


Everyone has has highs and lows.


They have good things happen. They have bad things happen. They all have money problems. They all have health scares. They lose people they love.


And they said the most important thing, the biggest factor for wealth, for health and for happiness was the quality of people's relationships. So, yes, I think it's we're social animals. We have to be part of the pack. And in a relationship, not necessarily. I think some people I think there are a few people that are happy being single. And, you know, like you look at like the Dalai Lama or some monk somewhere who's I think.


They're probably going to have the easiest, most peaceful life because they're going to have the stress of a relationship, but most people have what Helen Fisher talks about as a we have a sex drive, but she says we also have a romantic drive and need to be. With someone or or to love someone special, so, yeah, I definitely think that's part of it. I think it's just the fact that we need to learn how do we get along and make the relationship healthy and not settle for something that's less than enough.


In that particular study that we're talking about is the relationship with a significant other or just general relationship like family, friends?


Both. Both, particularly. Just generally.


They basically like people who've sold out for money and just driven for what what they want to do, achieve the cost of their relationships. Business and personal are the ones that have less health, less happiness, more regret later on. That strikes me as somebody who is transactional rather than emotional and. I mean, I can think of my grandfather as being a very transactional person, my mother's father, that that grandfather. Yes. And he created. He received love because he gave money.


Which I suppose worked for him. That's the loyalty, that's how he got loyalty from his children, because there was always the promise of money. Hmm. And so there are times when all that the 10 children would be together would come to see papa because papa was getting interest on his accounts and the money was the was available to be shared. So you need to come to visit Papa on a set on a Sunday and spend an entire day with him.


So you would be looked on favourably and you would get a. A chunk. And you wanted to be number one out of the ten, you know? Well, there was one who never got and it was yes. So it wasn't real love. And did that cause a lot of friction between the siblings? Oh, yes, even now, even now, I don't speak to two of my aunts because they're just horrible people because of because of that, it's all about money.


And I'm just not getting involved in that. It's that's how they view the world. It's what they can get. And so if you are if you are a well-off sister, then you're my favorite sister, because then you're going to leave me something in the world. But if you are not able to do sister, then I guess you're my sister and I love you. But that doesn't mean anything. I will not be there for you in any way.


But you're my sister. I love you, darling. But now I will not come and visit you if you are ill because you have nothing to live for me in the real.


So that, to me is transactional and. I don't know what kind of gratification you actually get out of that, because you must realize that it's false. That's the point I'm actually making. That is not a it's it's not real. Those people have no real emotions for you. You have bought it. Hmm. I suppose Mr. Trump is the Trump.


I think from my personal experience, my. My dad was the eldest of four siblings. And there were three sons and one daughter and Chinese culture, traditionally, the boy inherits and my father was quite. He's passed now, but he was quite forward ticking in that, you know, you know, all should get equal shares, you know, so we had some property in China that the government gave back. If you applied and the other two brothers wanted to cut the sister out because she was married and no longer technically part of the family, she belonged to another family.


And my dad said that, you know, no, she should have a share. And to be able to apply and get this land back property back from the Chinese government, all siblings had to sign this document to apply for it. So, you know, and at that time, because my family, my dad is not a rich man, wasn't a rich man, you know, we just managed to get by. But his two brothers did very well for themselves in Hong Kong, but they needed his signature to apply for this property.


And so throughout the years, while they were going through the process, they were like loving brothers, you know, every holiday with they speak and everything and see how they were. But apart from that, they did speak to each other, you know, like, well, my dad can live like these 20 years. There was no contact. And all of a sudden, you know, out of the woodwork they did this and then. Everything got the land back and everything, and then they needed his signature again because they wanted to sell the property and get the cash.


And in that time, my aunt died suddenly and again. They wanted to cut out her children from from a share because, you know, they would have inherited the mother's share. I don't know what happened there. But what I do know is that when my dad was seriously in a hospital, he was dying. My dad asked us, asked me if I could call my uncle to let him know so that he could come visit him in hospital.


And literally, I called the house the number and they said we hadn't spoken in years since they sold the property and somebody picked up and spoke to Chinese. And basically when I asked my uncle, I was told it was wrong. No, she put the phone down and then when I called back, the answer supposed be called. So it's straight to voicemail and, you know, I have actually disowned my my father's side because to me, they're not family.


And what you're saying about being very transactional now, I think when my uncle, prior to being married, potentially there was a chance to have a better relationship. But I think he was quite old. I think he was in his 40s before he married his wife, introduced through his sister in law, and she was in her twenties and he wanted a family. So out of that, I believe, a transactional relationship because she wanted to come out of China.


He wanted a wife. He wanted a family. So what he got out of the relationship was he got a son. You know, so I think that's how he really he measured. Love, whatever. It was transactional, I think they both knew what they were getting into. That, yeah, sorry, that was a very long story. Thank you for sharing. It helps to see how these kind of dynamics play out in real life situations.


So what lessons can we can we take from. From this. I think we need to understand what our boundaries are.


If we if we know what makes us happy, then we need to know what what our boundaries are, what we will allow into our space, what we will allow to affect us, and how to navigate so that we maintain centered, so that we we we remain faithful to what we think, because I think we we also evolve and change over time.


But what we think at that point is essential to our well-being.


I think if we are if we are not sure, then I think we allow in a lot of ifs and tangential things to affect our own sense of self.


I agree with you, Sandra, but I think the biggest problem is actually knowing yourself what you want. And that's not the easiest thing. I think we grow up in a society where we're bombarded with images and I guess a social framework of what? A relationship should be. You know, and I think it's. It's not easy to understand what you really want from a relationship, what you want, basically, what would make you happy. I think one thing to learn from it as well would be to find someone you want to sit and do a jigsaw with.


You know that you not like a pair of toddlers fighting over the pieces. And, you know, you can actually sit and do the jigsaw nicely with someone in a fair way and still just find another person that you go on with. So is there going to be a spate of first dates which exults, do you do you know there's is a Christmas tradition in my family with my son? Well, the three of us, three of us, every Christmas, we did a jigsaw.


Every Christmas, so I have got 30 odd years worth of jigsaw puzzles and I don't know if it works, but maybe did it end in Rousse?


No, no, actually, actually, I think we were quite good at working because I would take the borders and I would look for all the borders and I would frame it. So that was my job. And then my son like to do complicated bits so he would take a bit that's complex. And he would take out all the pieces and go sit somewhere and do it and then come. And then my husband would try to do the sky or whatever it is a bit.


So we, you know, some people, they're all packed together and trying to do the same bits and then they're elbowing and pushing and or you have that piece. Give me that. You're doing the same bits mean. No, we never had that. So maybe maybe we sort of subconsciously knew that.


Yeah, just take your own set.


You've got to be working on the same picture, though, don't you? It's the same.


Yeah, it's the same things. I mean, we're working for the common good of getting it finished and so we could see the thing. Last puzzle we worked on was five thousand pieces. So it was a lot. So does my dining table. So we had space, lots of space and lots of pieces to work with and so we could do discrete pieces without interrupting the other person. I think that's what it is. We do what each. Person was doing well aware of it, but we were not stopping the other from achieving what they wanted to achieve within the framework of the puzzle.


I don't know. Hadn't thought of it like that before, but yeah, yeah, think like using the, you know, the jigsaw mass for I feel like a lot of people and me and maybe this is unfair to that. And I'm judging a lot from, you know, women I may not go on dates with probably don't know what picture they're looking from or maybe they do, but they're not aware that it's perhaps not necessarily their own picture.


And then it's just sort of they're buying into an idea of. You know what, and you know what society is expecting, really?


Yeah, like a culturally given narrative.


Yeah. And I demand table. I'm not dating the men. I wouldn't.


But do you think using that, you know, the metaphor of a jigsaw, perhaps, you know. Everybody is working on Jigsaw, but they're not the image is fuzzy, but by trying different pieces, they're trying to get that clearer picture. I I'm not I'm not sure that the jigsaw metaphor works for that, I think because otherwise you're you're assuming that people are perfect shape, you know, and you're looking for the right person, whereas actually you've got within one person how they're going to show up in the relationship could be could be at this level or at this level.


And that depends on the climate of the relationship, because we've all been in relationships where. We've all been in relationships where where we've performed better and we've been in relationships where we haven't been the best of ourselves, and it depends on what you activate in the other person and what they activate in you.


And so those dynamics mean that we're not a set piece. For me, for me, the best the best part of the metaphor is where he talks about make the centerpiece, what makes you happy. So it has to be you have to be happy first and then you build out from that. And he talks about loving yourself 100 percent first. And I think. The crux of a relationship is, does it or not necessarily does it, but can enhance my life?


Does it make me better or does it make me more? Because when a relationship makes you worse, then I think you're better off being single and having a relationship detract from from your life. It's not necessarily going to make you better in the moment, but can you work together to make it better? And that depends, obviously, on both of your willingness, ability and commitment to making it better. But isn't there another instance where in that missing piece of the jigsaw is a shape that you see and you are trying to probably force?


A piece in because that's the piece that you like, but that piece will never fit and you're trying to chip off the edges around the corners, do whatever it is, because you really want that piece to fit. But that piece is not the right piece.


It's like coarse. I mean, I suppose in reality, of course, in another person change trying to change them to fit in with you.


Yeah. I think that that happens in a lot of relationships is that people are looking for.


People are looking for someone to fit their jigsaw piece and they idealize that this person is going to be the person that's going to do it for me. And what they're not really doing is really appreciating who the person is really understanding. And it's like you should you'd be better if you did this. And if you dye your hair and if you look like this and if you did this and if you did that, it would be just perfect. And we'd be so happy with what they mean.


We'd be so happy. You mean I'd be so happy, that's what he means, yes. This is actually. I actually I'm just going to find another link if anyone's got anything to say, yeah, I just wanted to pick up on a couple of points.


First of all, from what you said before, chunder about, you know, kind of compromise, I think the word was you, which we didn't say, but you were kind of alluding to compromise and being about being who we are now and then going into a relationship and thinking, I'm going to I don't like the idea of this. However, I will do things this way instead. So in that aspect, the compromise point of view, and I think that that can take a lot of strength because you can't you can't just remain ignorant and arrogant and just completely stage you.


But, you know, because you've got to you have got to fit in with other people and they've got to fit in with you. And that's that that is compromise, isn't it? Well, at the same time, you don't want to compromise on your integrity either. I think that's really important. And and kind of where you to remember correctly in relation to what you were saying, Ben, about and about meeting people and on the Instagram and Facebook and all that sort of stuff.


And I was having a conversation with them with one of the ladies and where today and we were just talking generally about when we used to go out. And yet, you know, you go in there all day, then you go out and you get up the next morning, go to work again, go out the next night and so on and so forth, because you were younger. And then that developed into how the nights outweigh the nights. Now you got locked down inside a different than what they were 15 years ago, 20 years ago.


And it's not just the music, it's not just the venues, but the people are different. And you can I mean, I don't want to be disrespectful towards any any women or anything like that. But now that the advancements in makeup, I just don't believe you can get someone who's, like, really, really average and they will just look a million dollars when they're going out. And I just think that adds to a level of pretentiousness, i.e., I look this good.


So therefore this is what I deserve. And that's kind of like the. Vibration that that comes off and it just I just don't think it's healthy and I think that's where the Instagram kind of mentality comes from, because everyone looks perfect on their possibilities and they're not going on there with no makeup on doing it when they looked at actually back then and the percentage of when they're in a fantastic place.


So it's like a false reality. Then just about everybody else thought the. No, I agree, and the thing is, if I see a girl that I think's attractive, but she's got a 16 year old makeup on, then instantly not interested in the more. So say something about her that I don't want to be with somebody who needs all that crap on their face because it's. Yeah, it's false. So what else is false about her? So I would so I look at it and I think that.


I think underneath it all is a very deep insecurity. I think if you really knew the person, you'd find out they actually don't think there a million dollars. That's why they present this sort of false image.


Bill, I think in that as well, it can also be very unapproachable for men because then they going to feel like, you know, she's never going to look at me because she you know, she's obviously putting on this persona that she could have any man she wants. Maybe if that sort of. I don't think it's 11 percent accurate, though, because I know girls that are amazing and they just love makeup and they use loads of makeup and it's just because they love makeup.


I said they are not insecure girls, they just love it, I they want they know good because it's a personal thing. I just I just don't like all that makeup. I just see it as I see it as false.


It's not really you because why are you putting on there and putting on to look different. I don't know because it makes you look better does it. A lot subjective obviously.


But if it makes you look better or different then you're not yourself because you, you look different before and after. So I'm not convinced by that. Maybe a little bit. Yeah, that's fine. Don't you call the least of the eyes and things, but they are a little bit lipstick.


But I'm talking you are talking about sort of when they've gone full control and have changed the shape of and the idea I don't know all the terminology overline the lips to make the lips a little bigger and all that sort of stuff.


Yeah. Just overdoing it. Like, if I see makeup, I'm not against makeup, I'm just against going over the top with it. But I don't know I don't know what the breakpoint is.


Is the makeup itself or is it the accompanying behavior. Yeah, maybe that's the difference because yeah, there's some people love to experiment with makeup and really, really go all out. But for some this is like a personal personality change you put on the makeup and it's almost like some people say it gives them confidence and civil behavior with that makeup on is probably different from when the person has no makeup on.


Yeah, I mean, you get that with clothes as well. If you pass it on or killed, obviously, then you feel a lot better and you are do feel better. That's why a lot of guys were suits to work because they feel they feel good about themselves.


But these are there's a line in the line I think I think is important to take care of our hygiene and our parents and stuff like that. Well, I think it does become a line where it becomes almost like like they can't find confidence with our line. They don't feel good enough with our way.


I think, though, I kind of identify with kind of in a way I agree kind of when I see women with a lot of makeup on and really kind of glamorous, you know, I think kind of two things instantly. I think, wow, you look great. But also, my God, you know, you're so kind of concerned with how you look. But I know, you know, the same, you know, spend hours in the gym and I've kind of fallen prey to that a bit, spending a lot of time in the gym getting kind of very image conscious.


So I don't think it is just just women. I think is. And when I see, like, a really tough guy, that's that's one of the thoughts I have. Oh, you're so nasty. I like that.


The thing is, with just doing anything that you come from a book as well as someone who's got muscles in your mouth in the same way, what you can do with makeup, I think it's not kind of the fact that women have makeup on. There's nothing wrong with improving how you look and improving self-esteem. What the point I was making was that years ago you'd have a really, really peaceful girl, a really peaceful celebrity, and it would be useful because they would be useful.


Now, you've got women who are beautiful because of makeup and there's a difference.


Well, I think, you know, it's nice to be slow, sorry to jump in. But, you know, since I have been digitalise in everything so more modern, you know, now they sort of shave inches off people's body parts and really change the way that we look. I think that starts then trend it the way to make a scarf, because now girls are trying to fit this image of what they see on a magazine, which isn't actually a true image anymore.


Whereas you were saying in the past it was more of a true image.


So I think it's just gone that way because they've started digitalise in women and so on and manners while also on, you know, what to do with the truth, comes back to trust in what you see and what perception can you believe this image is?


It can. That's what's happening in terms of the progress that we've made in the digital sphere. Can you trust the person, what the person looks like in front of you be on Skype or Instagram? Can you trust that that image is the person in the past? You would talk to the person, you see the person, and so you get a feel for the person, believe what you're seeing because you're seeing them in the flesh or it's a photograph and it's untouched.


Now, as you're saying, Sasha, Intisar taken off. What do you believe, what is the reality, what can you trust? Can you build on something that you're not sure is Israel? I think you're talking about in the context of actually seeing someone in real life, one that I'm not talking to. I was just referring to the Instagram in terms of that's what people say. But the kind of point to make and it's the behavior factor.


It's the behavior factor behind the makeup. Should they be the I'm speaking generally because it's the only way you can kind of get the point across the mean. Generally, you'll get women who will go out and they will look fantastic, really, really beautiful, really, really attractive. But they will believe in that image that they see, which is false, and then they will be very pretentious around. So the huge amounts of pretentiousness I'm good for, for anybody because I look this way, but they don't really look that way.


Didn't they look normally quite plain. But they're acting this way because you've got that false eyelashes on the hair extensions and all this stuff. But then once that makeup comes off and I'm speaking from experience, not through being in a textbook, once that makeup comes off, it's almost like. Phantom of the Opera taken off as much it the behavior change. It's it's it's not a nice thing to say.


It is defined in their identity and how they can make themselves look.


It's not just we'll just those. Yeah, I mean, people that say.


I'm just saying they're copying people that they see in the media, people like Kim Kardashian and these other people, and that's the way they feel that there's pressure on them to be like that person. I mean, it's you know, I mean, cosmetic surgery is obviously the one that's left massively these things like, you know, you get you get these young girls who go to sort of Romania or somewhere in Eastern Europe to talk to sort of get this cheap sort of dental stuff.


Amanda, I've been real problems because they because they want to have that sort of perfect look that people people are so basically. But I certainly think with makeup, I mean I mean, it's okay for people to enhance.


It's not really my type, but I think I think it's still worth probably having a conversation with someone before you decide that what their personality is like, because there's obviously nothing wrong with someone just playing a character as well. And in some respects, like, you know, like you were saying about a suit, you know, you put a suit on when you have a job interview and in some respects, you're playing a character. So life is kind of full of subterfuges, isn't it, where we play little role sometimes, you know, and, you know, as Cyndi Lauper said, girls just want to have fun, you know, and it's all part of it.


You know, you drink the Lamborghini or whatever, and, you know, you spend sort of like a couple of hours, you know, putting your makeup on and stuff to get dressed. And it's it's just part of the night out.


I said, do you think it may be become all a bit more kind of narcissistic? So sorry, Sandra, because because way around because of social media. You know what? And I think I think men suffer from this as well, because there's this thing with what I did and have done, you know, like, oh, suddenly now all men are passe and know got big muscles. I look like that as well and go to the gym.


Otherwise I'm going to look really weird in comparison. And, you know, there were more images of men around and just like there were more images of women and everyone else around.


So we're all confronted with images of this kind of mirrors showing up to us, you know, Merrison Medicament and then me saying, well, I don't I don't look backlashed, but it's the whole the whole point of the whole point of advertising is to sell you something by telling you that you need something to be the person you really want to be able to follow your dreams or or to subscribe to this ideal. And that and that's just taking hold massively.


I think, you know, I think whatever we do, it's it's well, people are stereotypically do is it's to find a place to belong. It's a sense of belonging. And you talk about it being more narcissistic now because it's all very much image focused.


But I think back in the day I said back in the day, back in the 40s, 50s, certainly for women, you know, it was like the girls were taught in school how to run a household, how to sew, how to cook a meal, how to make your husband happy. And again, it was teaching skills, skills or whatever. It was a perception of what men and boys and girls should do to form a sense of belonging.


And I think it's just there is still this wonderful underlying sense of trying to find a way to fit in, but it's just a different way of what society expects or wants nowadays. And it huge challenging because that was Skold telling you.


You're saying men at school, at least it is. It is an organisation that's that's actually you know, it's got a governing body that looks at it or something, whereas whereas obviously advertisers and staff, there's no there isn't really much regulation, like a more or less do what they want. Right.


I don't I don't think it was so much school as it was like everyone has to have they like to scrub their doorsteps so that because you don't want to be the one that didn't have a clean doorstep. And that was like the Procter and Gamble cleaning industry had sold that through advertising. But this brings to mind two two questions that I think and what it seems to me is, is like he said, it's like the Kardashians have brought up this glamorous image that a lot of people are buying into.


And I wonder how many girls feel like that. That level of makeup, that level of pressure is the barrier. It's like the cost of entry to be like a girl of value or whatever they see it as.


And then I've got a question that it's competition, that there's competition as well. Yeah, I feel that they have to live up to a competitive world wherein if we are going to find somebody to have a relationship with and then of course there are the boxes to take. And I think we have all read the stories about the girls who are trying to get the next footballer because he's got you know, he's famous and he's got enough cash and they'll have a good time.


Etc., So if I look the most glamorous, maybe he'll see me and I'll be the chosen one and therefore I will be the one on his arm. And so there is that level of competition. And you do find that there are a lot of young girls who spend all of their money on trying to look, as Pete says, like the Kardashians, because that is what gets the attention.


And I think because everyone else is doing it, they feel they have to do it to keep up.


Yeah. And after all. So. Well, the other thing then. So I think I think for the girls, there's this huge pressure like they have to be doing it because everyone else is. And so if they're not, you know, like I said, there was maybe a big difference in how they look. They're going to look they're going to look like they don't belong.


And so for for the men who said the lack have a reaction to it, I'm wondering, is the reaction that you feel they've artificially made themselves up to be more attractive and then is that frightening? In a sense that so then there were this level of attractiveness, this level. Am I good enough? Does that frighten you? No, no, because I look at the psychological aspects behind it, I say, why are you doing that? I think while you're doing that, would you feel the need to do that?


The air? I think Sasha is probably right, but insecurity in the background. But I just think it's over for me, it's over the top and some was pretty quite ironic about this is some of them probably better with less makeup, less often my suspicion as well. And I'd like to know what you look like with half the half the makeup. Did you ever watch the show on BBC three that have exactly the come when it was called, but when BBC three used to be on TV, they used to have a show and they'd actually have I think it was generally women.


They occasionally had men, but it would show them and they generally they bring on people with loads of makeup and they'd sort of under make them. And a lot of people would generally, I think it was called marry snog avoid. I think it was called certainly for the moment. But that was exactly that premise. And it was fascinating because a lot of the time, the girls, when they actually were you know, when the make up artist have actually enhanced the good you know, their best features in some respects, that they actually got a lot more interest from from sort of people being being asked what they thought of basically.


I mean, five times the other one, I just find five times this bizarre. It's just it's just a weird thing to feel that you need to tell you. I think basically, you know, that's OK. And it must be such a it must be such a relief as well, you know, and you think people sometimes, you know, some of the girls at work, it's like make it into their socks and stuff.


This like, wow, really? I nearly did that before a long holiday. Would you go. Come on. Really? Well, I didn't. I didn't. And I look ridiculous. But I was tempted because, you know, my skin's like Snowman White, so I just thought, I don't want to I don't look so. But then you think, well, why does it matter that it's the same thing, though, isn't it?


As the girls put it on the spot is. Yeah. All about status because like can in a lot of Asian countries, for example, India, it's more it's considered more attractive to have paler skin because I indicates, you know, traditionally you don't have to toil in the fields and therefore you must be of a higher social class. So it's all sort of status thing. And I guess it's reversed. You know, if you've got a tan, it means you can afford a lot of foreign holiday holiday.


We got a membership card at the solarium.


Yeah, so now not going back. So, Kellerman, you were saying, is it like it feels like you're being sold something that isn't true, like an image portrayed? Is that what creates. A reaction to the make up. Yeah, I suppose so. It's like a mask on, literally, physically a mask. And I just like I say, I wonder what why are they doing it to such extent? I'm not talking about little makeup.


We're talking about quite a lot of makeup to such an extent. And yeah, I want to know I wonder, do you look better without it? And I suspect in many cases they may well do, but they convinced themselves they look good and maybe because their friends are doing it. So they have to do it as well. I think I think there's that.


And I think also what Pete said, I used to work in the school and you always get some girl about 14, 15, and no one, even a family hadn't seen her without makeup take the makeup. And so she looked like a kind of a caricature. And it was because she wanted the security. And that's how she said in the chat about the identity of having that makeup. She didn't have the skill and knowledge of using the makeup skillfully.


So, yeah, I think all of these things can be things that we hide behind.


I actually just remembered I had a girlfriend once who she went to a photograph for the photography company, and they put makeup on her and she showed me the pictures and she looked quite different. And I wasn't attracted to her with the makeup is quite strange. She looked good. But she looked better with just a little less makeup on, so, yeah.


Hmm. Let's remember, I think females also have that problem sometimes, too, with looking at men. The buff man that Ben was describing sometimes can seem too self absorbed in the muscles and what have you and the the posing and how the t shirt fits to accentuate whatever, whatever. So it's oh, he's just too full of himself. He's just posing. It's so there's that equivalent as well. And maybe he's also insecure.


He probably is to do that.


And then those men who don't do that might get their security from having a beer glass in their hand and they clutch on to it for life and the cigarette in the other. Well, women also do the cigarette thing, too, but there are things that we use as props and makeup. Could be just a prop for some of these girls.


Yeah, and I think alcohol is a problem. It is a. But I mean I mean, it's not a new thing either. I mean, it's funny, I'm thinking about Elizabethan times and they had some pretty crazy fashions as well, you know, so the big raps and the women had the very tight waist and all these sort of regalia. And, you know, so it's not it's sort of always been around us, doesn't it? And I suppose it's it's the sort of fashion, isn't it?


And it's all it's all about, you know, we were talking about society being competitive and it's all about people, you know, being being one step ahead of everyone else because they're in touch with the fashion, you know, and they've got the inside track. And it's sort of people's way of showing that they're better than everyone else because people like like to feel that they're better than everyone else. That's why I think it's better.


And it's also keeping up. And possibly for youngsters, it's more about fitting in, I think.


And obviously there is a lot of peer pressure on young people. And I think it probably starts in school. I mean, I don't think I'd want to be at school now because, you know, the actual pressure that gets put on you by your peers is massive and body language. Yeah. And I think I think it continues into it's one these days and even your 30s, basically.


And you. Yeah, I think that I mean, when we're talking when we're lots of makeup, I think we're talking like 20s, maybe 30s. Hmm. So which is, I think. I wouldn't restricted travel because you have older woman who also think that they hide the makeup on to look younger, a lot younger, possibly.


I mean I mean, when I was 14 and the miniskirt and the low cut blouse and the hair, the spiky hair and the false eyelashes out there and the fingernails the whole night it's been. So it's it's I don't think it's restricted to any one age group, but I think it's it's it's easier to go out into battle.


Lupine, but Warpaint, yeah, yeah, literally Warpaint So very what he she to me is in relation to, you know, the jigsaw metaphor is that basically we're the crux of the problem is that we're insecure in ourselves.


We're not happy ourselves. And that's really the foundation of foundational problem of relationships. Well, I want to actually ask, why do people feel the need to be in a relationship? Because I've been wondering that myself and haven't come up with an answer yet.


And do you do you feel like, OK, maybe not the need, but can you talk from personal experience? What would you. Oh, yes, yes. Probably not know specifically, Kathleen, but someone who he can think like when I think I'm quite happy on my own.


Happy. But then you want someone to do stuff with, you want someone there? Some of the time, Tony. I don't mean like you that you can be quite happy on your own, but sooner or later you're going to want someone that you can do things with, someone that you've. Is there? Yeah, you want company for sure, but you can have company from a friend, male or female.


Obviously it's not the same, the intimacy yet, but this is the official sort of I don't know, you get to a point with somebody and then you see. Right. Let's agree to go exclusive so you don't sleep with anyone else. So that's like that's like a contractual term. Right. Let's not see anyone else and which has its good parts and bad parts. And then all you get is maybe start seeing your friends less. Could you do more stuff with your partner.


This is a personal experience, of course. Who else? And at some point you might move in together and you spend a lot of time with each other, obviously. But I don't know. I've just been thinking, do I really want a relationship on this? Because I've had enough of them already, I think. And I just want some me time, I reckon. But then, yeah, I get I do get a bit bored really.


And just one company, but then you can get out. Do you have a relationship. I suppose is maybe the question. No, I think I mean, I don't know what everyone else thinks, but I think there's a time to be single. I think. A relationship has to make your life better, doesn't it?


And that's the essential determinant I want and ready and be ready to commit to it as well. And I think if you just end up getting in a relationship out of boredom or just because, you know, something's bothering you at that moment, it's just asking for the cycle to repeat itself, I think. Hmm.


And I think I think the central message from Jigsaw is to not let fear, fear or boredom or whatever get you into a relationship or keep you in a relationship. I mean, the reality is, is whether we like it or not, there's certain emotions, we're human beings with emotional and certain emotions that you cannot get. For money, then you can't go by yourself. And, for example, being in love and impounds.


And, you know, hugging someone on the shoulder. Well, that's also stuff that's unique to the relationship. And OK, if you want to break it down, it could add to a level of insecurity. But I think there's a lot more to it than that. It's nice, isn't it? It's warm. It's comfortable, and it's validating. There's a lot of positive stacking that you can get, a lot of emotions that you can get out of the relationship that you simply cannot get on your own.


And I think and I think, you know. There's more people are people people can be attracted to more things than drugs and alcohol content and those type of things in relationship are addictive. And I wonder whether it's those things because of their uniqueness. Is it that that's keeping them in bad relationships? Because you think, oh, if I leave this relationship, then I might not get that.


Because I'll be on my own or I won't get that, because that's unique to this particular case and I only feel this way about this particular person. So therefore that that emotion is unique. It's quite a complicated question, isn't it?


Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think they can also be it can also be a problem.


You get love addicts who are addicted to the higher the initial relationship and any relationship that. That goes past that honeymoon stage, they lose that and then they can't get into new relationships to recreate that feeling. So I think it can work both ways. We would, but what was what we were sort of talking about there was was weather, is that a bad thing, would you say? It's not a bad thing to just be in short term relationships.


I mean, I suppose it's a bit of an emotional roller coaster for you.


But I think we've said in this group before that sometimes short relationships can be incredibly fulfilling as well, actually, and they can come along at the right time.


Well, I think it depends. I think ultimately what people want the dream people have is like a lifelong partnership. But sometimes a lot of people. What I'm saying, they're addicted to the initial phrase of romance, like the excitement the last to the beginning of a relationship, and so they're forever trying to that that dream is a relationship that is always like that.


Which is sustainable. And unless you'd go into lots of long short term relationships or short. Yeah, yeah, but then you could just do that.


Yes, because some people some people like drama as well, don't you? Oh, yeah, yeah, they do.


But but most of them will end the relationship moaning about their partner and why this and this happened to me. Why do I always pick the wrong one? And it's not necessarily that I want to be in short term relationships. Hmm, OK. You, I think of got a way of looking at it as well as if you had a son, would you advise your son, do that for the rest of his life, or would you want for for more stability for him?


I don't think I'm not advised.


I think I'm playing devil's advocate here because I've sort of in one of the sort of latenight sessions, like when we were sort of going on about how often or something I was actually sort of saying that I'm not actually sure that that sort of, you know, actually for an animal to settle down with another animal for like the rest of your life, how natural that is.


And in some ways, when you see this and I'm not saying that there aren't some animals that do see horses, that there are plenty of animals that do. But for human beings, I'm not actually sure how. How natural it is and in some respects, good, I you know, it's generally it happens in the animal kingdom instinctually, generally, because, you know, security, I suppose, basically as well. So, you know, the idea is that they get they stay together for security.


And security is obviously quite an important thing for human beings as well. But there's much more of a focus really on on people. People are very much I think the culture is definitely seems to be moving towards embracing the concept of people actually being on their own, basically, and having working on your own security. And that that actually is something which is good in itself so that you do not have to rely on anyone else.


I hear this quite a lot because then if, like a robot can be contrary, that if society moves in the abyss, then they can keep us all in our homes, all working on our laptops, stop connecting with other human beings, stop united and no one can go out against the government. Everyone's like they were being trained to go in that direction.


Basically, there are a few conspiracy theories, definitely. They're saying at the moment, definitely with the Koranda stuff. So, yeah, they're always worth keeping.


And I do think we're being trained as a society to try and be more functional and alone. I don't think it's necessarily good for human beings. There's studies that show that people spend more time on their own, like 14 percent, life expectancy shortens by 14 percent and stuff like that.


And I find myself I don't I I've heard those as well. And I kind of always find myself whenever I hear about a study feeling a bit skeptical, because that's where every study that shows one thing. There's like a study to show something else. That's just been my experience. I think, like there are just so many factors, like because there was a saying about people like you, you know, living in lock down and the like. Most people are experiencing more stress because of that relationship.


So, I mean, for me, I just have to question those studies and says there's so many factors and variables.


I think I think it kind of comes down to what is exactly what what does it mean to be alone, you know, is being alone, not in a relationship or being alone. Let's having no friends, no family, nobody to talk to, no social outlet whatsoever. I think there's a big difference, isn't it?


But it affects things like your insurance premiums and stuff as well. It doesn't. I mean, I think this is, you know, why is it why is a single person to buy hybrid car insurance then you do as a married person?


Because the of what happens. OK, so how insurance works is the collect day testing day, or is it more risk of having an accident? And for whatever reason, they will have the scientific data or the research data to say the people that live on their own are more likely to have an accident because of X, Y or Z factors. They're going to I'm going to look at two places. I think there are some layers that we need to consider in this, and it's it's culture one, the cultural norms, the expectations of marriage, having children within marriage, et cetera, et cetera, but also that we have come to a point where people are living so long in ancient times.


If you got married young, you could die in childbirth. Life was brutal. Life was short. So you had to contend with a partner for probably, I don't know, 10, 15 years, a near dead, you know, one partner is dead or something. Whereas now you can get married and you have so many people who are talking about 50, 60 years of marriage. And it is unbelievable in some way. It's hard to think, OK, you are living exclusively with one person with 60 years and all of those expressions of love.


And we are one and we are all of those things. And maybe people are valued their freedom to make other connections before they actually settle down, get married. This exclusivity is probably what people don't want because it's.


It's once you do it, it's for the rest of your life and your life can be very long, it's it's a really for some people, it's a really long sentence. It could be considered to be a very long sentence.


You know, it was going to be very life then. You know, you're really it's like a friend or something. You really enjoy that person's company, but not a true pleasure to be in the company of someone else, actually, the pleasure company or whatever. And you know what I mean. It's a it's a good thing, isn't it? And I think, you know, we just kind of look at it from a chef's point of view or fancy and point of view or an excitement point of view.


Will those things do die off, don't they? And what what keeps those things alive is when you actually really enjoy the other person's company and you're happy to see them and you're loving towards each other and you're respectful and that makes it exciting and just you just can't settle for less. I think that's kind of the thing, isn't it?


But sometimes that just becomes every it's like putting on an old dressing gown. It's comfy and it's everything, but it's not exciting. So what do you do? You go outside and you start to look for excitement. So you start to cheat, but you can find a little more tightly together.


Yeah, I'm not saying no.


There are those who look for excitement together. Yes, I know that at that level.


But I'm not being voyeurism or talking or anything. I wish I was rather innocently thinking about maybe taking out the tango or something basically romantic, you know.


Yeah, but there are those. But no, all I'm saying is that for having a commitment to a relationship for extended a number of years, as Alan is saying, you like that person, the person contributes and makes you happy. And you you you like being with that person. That's on the assumption that that person is evolving like you are. So you continue to be interested in and like and appreciate the company. But if that person changes or doesn't change, then you will have evolved.


And there is not much between you two that is going to fall apart as well.


Yeah, I don't think there's any formula to say, you know, this is the way to do it with this person. I want them to come together. If you do it right and it's going to last forever. I don't think it's like it's not like one rule fits everybody, but I just think there's like a general sort of way of doing things in a sort of mature way that sort of gives it more stability and more chance of surviving, if that's what the two people want.


What we have spoken about is anyone who's really, really boring and the theater, because that's like that's like crucial, isn't it?


Because if you've got a partner who was originally a child and wanted to go out and do things and go places and and all that sort of stuff, that's cool. But once that complacency comes in on the go on, I can't be bothered doing this and I can't be bothered doing that. And why do we have to go then and why we have to do that? And that's got nothing to talk about. And then I've seen it in relationships, not even on my own with friends and stuff where the person the first started going out with the get potlucks aside, the personality the starts started going out with is completely different.


Uh, six months down the line because they just turn into a big war and they don't have any humor to the excitement or anything like that. And I think that's that's really crucial. You've got to you've got to be keep applying positivity and keep that spark less, because that's that's what that's what keeps your relationships alive, isn't it?


You know that the excitement's like Robin Pete was saying before about, you know, sort of when it's just the way that we create it's so humid, like mankind doesn't die out. We do get all of these, like sort of hormones and chemicals like this that make people come together. And if we didn't experience that, then no one would bother. So that initial drive is to get people to actually happened and they're not destined to wear off within three to six months.


And I think a long lasting relationship, like you said on this, about my day in life and like keeping that sort of spark alive, it's never going to be as intense as, say, the first three to six months. But there's lots of ways that the couple can bring that back to life to keep the marriage alive and still hold the relationship alive.


Yeah, I don't think it is natural. You know, they ask the question, it is natural for us to be with someone because if it was natural, we would all do it once was genetically imprinted and most days we had we pay bond for survival. But what we've done is we're the first species that has ensured our survival and created a society that, like Sondra's, has lived longer, that wants more. And so being able to live together is a skill.


And ultimately it's really about having a great friend. Because because the the the last and the excitement will die down, and then, yes, the temptation is to look outside, but what determines success in all fields, whether it's in your health and in your work, in business, in mastering any kind of skill, is the decision and decision really comes from homicide, regicide, patricide, suicide, and it means to kill off and Sitta decides to kill off any other options.


And I know after I got married, there was this like thing like never going to sleep with anyone else. And it's how you deal with that challenge, how you deal with the challenges of being together, and Allen says it's about dating isn't just for the initial, it's that something that, like all those things that you do in building up the relationship, they're always part of it. It's not like you go through that stage and then leave it out, but it has to be a continual effort.


And so it's the ability, it's the maturity, the emotional maturity to be that person can do that with integrity, to be trustworthy, to trust someone else. And then it's the emotional ability to communicate and to be able to live together in that way, in the kind of harmony that you resolve differences so that they don't come between you. And to find coping mechanisms to deal with arguments as well on that don't resort to nastiness, I think, as well.


Yeah, I can have you can have an argument and you can have a discussion, but if it gets nasty, then that's going to take its toll, even if you make it up, I think.


Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the governments talk about the four horsemen of the apocalypse, consensus, defensiveness, stonewalling and criticism. And that's really what you know, when we talked about slaying the dragon, that's what that is, is learning how you can disagree, how you can dislike the level of this. We disagree about money. We disagree about sex. We disagree about children. But it's really what those things mean. And it's when we can understand and have compassion and empathy for the person to understand what we really are.


Differences of identity are different jigsaw puzzles that we can merge those jigsaw puzzles into one. And then I think it's also the pressure of feeling this person is my only conduit to happiness, and it's knowing that they know you're the conduit to happiness and this person is there because you get along better with them than anyone else. You want to know the stupidest thing that I did by accident yesterday, just to change the mood a little bit, because this guy I saw a chance recently, I've only been in a few days or I and I stopped seeing my therapist about three months ago.


And I've been meaning to send in, like, this sort of overview of what I got out of it and all the rest of it and how things are going on. I sent it to him in the morning and I copied I don't know why it copied and pasted on my the way my phone works. If you copy something, it only saves for an hour and then it deletes out of the copy and paste section. And this was I was and I was like, I accidentally copy and paste it into this Chinese guy.


And I was speaking to for like two days that would be so embarrassed and flustered in my life. And now I'm just like a walk and wanted to talk to him anymore.


Did he reply he was really going about this, like, don't worry about it.


Like, you know, I'm not going to share it with anyone and all this stuff. Well, I'm devastated. I've lost both Rumsen.


What would you all do in that scenario? We need to you need to help me.


This is just give us exactly where to get what in that email? Oh, no.


Do you want to just call it just paste into the chat? I think if if it was me, I would I would just be honest about it and then I would like because really it's about. You do what you do, you are what you are. No, he was fine with it is more the fact if I spend way too much to share with someone right off the store and it's just like, whoa, you know, too much.


But I just thought it was cool about it. Yeah, I know he was really good about it. You know, it just it's that kind of thing that's just what happens, like how a life unfolds just by coincidences.


Could be a good thing, though. He knows more about, you know.


Yeah, so, uh, so I just carry on, just need to marry him and make sure he never tells anybody to marry him tomorrow.


So what about.


Have you ever read any of Britney Brown? Yeah. She talks about vulnerability, hangover or something.


You know, it's kind of like that.


OK. That possible. Yeah. He is face to face rather than going away for I don't know what the fairest. To be honest, the Act's. I mean, obviously, you don't know what the fear is, but that is a fear, otherwise you wouldn't be avoiding.


It was just like saw the now. You feel like you overshared. So that's the fear. Yeah, that's what they do with that information if it's going to hurt you with it in the future.


But they was to take a couple of things in there as well like that.


You could sort of trace me and like stalk me as well. Not that I would, but I don't know him well enough to know they wouldn't.


That's really positive thinking for me.


This is a really positive thinking from this guy for a few days and they put he in stock so it can never be too careful.


That's another thing, though, the fear is that we now have, when we meet people, lots of stock in thoughts of never used to enter your mind. You do this.


Yeah, you think about I will not put myself into a compromising position. Yes, because you are usually physically around somebody, but now it's the virtual world that you also have to contend with. Will I be stopped? Will this person expose things that I have told them online?


Will they try to embarrass me, et cetera, et cetera, which goes beyond just having a conversation with somebody? And let's hope we do this, and I'm in the process of talking to young lady and I went out and actually bought the SIM card for three quid just to save me a normal number. And I've never done that before, but it was a very comeback's come of it. And then I'll know exactly who it is, because that's the only person in the world that's got that number.


That's sensible, because I have this guy that was like I had Yaghmai walks up and he's the one who said, look, I don't think we're compatible. I've been speaking to him for a couple of weeks. And he was like, I'm going to phone you every day. I'm going to spread, you know, with all my mates and get them to phone you and all I saw. And then he was phoning me on phone and I just had to keep ignoring the phone.


And frankly, after a couple of days and give up. Well, it does happen. So it's probably not.


So, you know, I used to get a new SIM card, to be honest, because there is a fear out there that all of any phone drama, I'm only I'm cutting three phones around within a bit of a problem, you know.


Well, the thing is, we kind of like I'm doin it and thinking, well, if things go well, I'll let you know. It goes because our first date is going to be in there. I do. I do now. So she's not a complete stranger, but we've not been on a date to do anything to the first dates is in a caravan over from within the East Yorkshire. So we're going to stay there for the weekend. And so, yeah.


So that would be interesting. But I'm thinking at what point to because I'm obviously going to have to take me. Me, no more mobile as well as me, that no one else has got the number of I like to into the car lights is just like a war zone.


It's your work phone to say hello. And I say I've got to work for the two older ones anyway.


And you have a numberplates as well.


The IS is on my car. I've got parking permits because I live in the sense in leads and the parking permits I got my address on. It hasn't got me no ID the number of where I live, but it's got the name. So literally if she looks at that you might not be seeing.


And as you know, we're already, you know what happens when you don't know someone. And then we go to the United States and you're the one guy that is the states.


I've got like a full drawer full of, like, diamond rings looking to say our mobile phones.


Make sure you use the correct name.


Yeah, well, she's nice to because, like, even unlike the up at the I haven't got my photo on, I've just got like a dot for me name and she's like, why is your name?


It does seem like random hacker name. Yeah.


So yeah, it's going to be.


But as I said, if it goes well, I'm gonna have to think of a reason like an excuse as to why I'm going to change, but know this isn't a start and we don't really know what's happening with this.


Honestly, though, is it just being cautious? And if you ever tell someone, you know, I've had a few bad experiences, so I decided to get a spy phone for random people, like you said, because because of the lockdown, you couldn't really go out.


I know you can, but it's a bit dodgy. I was like, what's going to do? And let me meet my chance. I'll just come down to yours. And like, normally that might be quite a good idea, but I thought, well, I don't really want to know where to live. So I just told that I lived in a shared house and my flatmates won't be too happy with that. But then but I've kind of come clean on that.


One could use a little bit of knowledge at the of lighthearted about not looking more and but yeah. There you go.


For the game you could be no use with the new. No, just tell her that you've got a new contract and you just have reported the number. Yeah. And that, well, you got, you know, a temporary one. Yeah, because everyone else is going to be ringing the bell the other day.


I just hope she doesn't buy me because I've been tied to the crappy phone is I get videos and all sorts of stuff, which is true. And because it is a rubbishy phone to spare one. So I just hope she doesn't like, go all out and buy me a new phone.


Unlike the old could get. I'm fine with a double SIM card and then you can have it in the same phone now because that's Lepel.


No, it's a. I think honesty is probably the best policy, and you're better off just telling her, you know, I usually just say to people, I'm just not comfortable and that's the truth. At the end of the day, you're not comfortable.


Yeah, I think that's. And join the conversation, remember the off button just and the conversation ended and you can end it.


Well, that's the thing. Well, look, we've got to use this or the number. I can literally, you know, if anything really does go wrong, I can just completely delete popular. If you don't know where to live and you don't know where where I am. Got me no show jobs. No, not one. Probably a bit overcautious, but I've obviously got some sort of reason for doing it, I don't know.


We'll see what happens and what do people think to invite us to early on? So, like, if somebody if you telling someone, oh, I'm just doing this and they're like, oh, well, if you need a hand, you know, come around and help you like after one or two days of speaking to someone or I'm going to Turkey next week and you're more than welcome to Cormoran. Does anyone find that? That's just like making me want to go.


And by. I think after one or two days, I would expect at least a couple of months, I think before maybe. Yes, but what do people make of that from the other side?


It depends, because there are some some men who think that they need to impress you. And that's what they bring very early on. Something extravagant to to to to say, OK, well, this is the sort of lifestyle or this is what I can do for you and it can be off-putting. And it has happened to me where a gentleman that I met at a conference and this was in my 20s, he worked for Playboy, let's put it in his Jamaican, but he worked for Playboy.


He was some senior accounting, whatever control or something anyway, at the head office in wherever it was in the States. And I was at school in Alabama and he tracked me down. He'd met me once because I was working at a conference and he tracked me down somehow. I don't know how many this was in the Dark Ages before Internet. And he called me to my surprise and offered me a ticket, a plane ticket to come up to I think it was Chicago.


Yes. To come from Alabama to Chicago to spend a weekend with him. Now, I have, as I said, and the gentleman once and I said, no, thank you. I don't know you. I had visions of, oh, baby, this man is going to cut my throat after he's had his way with me and I thought I'd be dead, he'd probably dispose of me. You know, I'm exaggerating, but you know what I mean.


And but I think it is better on the side of caution or stuff like that.


And yeah, but he thought that he was impressing me. I mean, a young girl like me down in the boonies down in Alabama with my fish in my fish ponds and stuff, come into Playboy headquarters to see this distinguished gentleman being whatever, whatever. I should be totally amazed and enthralled and impressed. Impressed. And I'd be, you know, off of my feet.


Yeah, I think it's not not all men are doing it for I don't know what the word is right now, but I think some people are just trying to impress you when they go overboard.


Isn't that a sign of insecurity as well, though? Yeah, we were talking about props earlier. We and I was thinking that, you know, you were talking previously, Sandra, about these people who send you pictures and they're in front of their sports car or their helicopter or whatever. And and for man, maybe quite often that's the problem as well. You know, the fast car or the well paid job or or the Playboy lifestyle or something.


I suppose that's that's the thing that they think impresses girls. And probably, you know, he might ask ten girls and maybe to come with them, I suppose. So it's one of those things isn't that some people do say yes. I suppose so.


Yeah, yeah, but definitely better to air on the side of caution, I think really these days, particularly if you're a woman, I think as well, you never know who you are going to be, what you want to see it as a red flag aloft, not continue talking to somebody will complain about want to come around the house to do a little job or whatever you say.


And I think we all know what he's sort of implying now on that it doesn't take a genius to make someone else seem more sincere.


He's just come around to the fact that it's all right, I'll do it.


I mean, even if that's not his game, you don't want to be coming back from the shops or something. And he keeps appearing as well, basically. So once, you know, if you say yes, that early on, he might well start tidying up and trying to do whatever time you need to hand all of his hands, come help.


Well, I think most men. Second, is this an online person? Yeah, just someone off a dating site and leave that one like, yeah, I think I think I think most if Medicaid then generally they won't be put off if they do like you.


I think that's certainly what I've seen in my experience. I think really. As a man and obviously, you know, seeing how well the men had been with with friends of mine who were girls as well, you know, and I think that's the thing, isn't it? Quite often it's about if you if you stop someone in their tracks, it's about how they act next. So if they suddenly start getting abuse, then I think definitely then you've worked out that so they can get that can out there.


If they're a nice guy, though, they'll probably just keep trying, basically. And eventually you might give in or you might think, nah, I don't like this, and then move on to the next. But I think enough we're getting enough experience now with a bit of experience in terms of what I would call the rituals associated with meeting someone online and what comes next and. People generally want to are comfortable with meeting in a public place. First.


But when you start to get up front invitations that take you out of your comfort zone and put you at a disadvantage. That to me says either that person. Is unaware of of some of the accepted practices. That that that no govern the dating the dating game or they have intentions that are not necessarily always so.


Boy, that capture that once in a while. Well, we'll just put it out to the panel. I mean, how how often? Because I think I mean, it's I know you're saying there are rules, Doctor, but I think they are pretty fluid, basically. So so they like, you know, girls and boys out there. How often bearing in mind, apart from covid, so ignoring the fact that it exists, how long would you say it would take to meet someone in person?


What's the appropriate time? Would you say how would you feel about it?


What do you mean from like from the talking for so long on the website? Yeah.


From chatting or going through a phone conversation. Would you speak to them? You know, I'm just wondering how people think it would go.


I've I've been like on a Saturday morning, Saturday afternoon, and just start chatting someone and then within an hour or couple of hours.


So I think it depends or there's other times I've been chatting to someone and hasn't like schedules haven't worked out.


And it's been six weeks before you got a chance. I think it depends. My generally it's it's generally I feel this is the woman that's more at risk. It's the woman that's more she needs to feel comfortable. So but I've always looked at what when she felt comfortable, but I haven't really been worried about having a bad experiences, so I've never felt nervous about meeting someone. I had a bit of a bad experience, actually, kind of match with a girl and a dating app, and then I think using the phone, there's like a phone functionality.


And then she's going to me that evening, Sedo or I come to yours and I said, well, it was a bit dodgy. I have I just said, well, why don't you come to a bar near nearby just to meet her in public? And we arranged to meet me out. And then she called me later and she was like a. like real emotional state. And she was saying that she was going to kill herself that night. And she's obviously just in a complete lie, just having a complete meltdown.


And she'd been drinking. And, you know, it was just I was just so relieved I didn't actually meet her. And especially I didn't allow it to come to my place. But, um, I think I think there are a lot of people who, you know, can go on apps now, you know, not not in the best state. I actually did meet up for coffee like a couple of days later, but in the daytime and in public.


And, you know, she apologized, but she just obviously in a really bad way. But, yeah, I'm really cautious now about that kind of thing.


To slightly change this just this subject, this is now this is now me asking for input. Now, I have looked at several apps, dating apps, and I'm looking at people and of course, you know, when you put in the date the age range and you get for me, I well, for one, I had to put in 50 to it wouldn't take anything older than that to whatever it was. I can't remember. And I started to see all of these 40 odd year old men turning up on my thing.


Now I'm saying to myself, and I must admit, some are quite cute, but anyhow, we will move on now at my stage in life. Others laugh. But anyway. Yes, no, I need OK, let me tell you, my husband is two years younger than I am already because he did not tell me his age until he knew that it was far gone and I would not turn him down. Otherwise I would have. But now.


Oh, there we go. Yes. No, for me, no. How do I get beyond my headspace where I'm looking at this on this one is too young. Oh my God. My son is twenty nine. Why am I looking.


No he cannot speak to me so please help me because I am just there. OK. Yeah. How do I, who do I look at basically. Because this is, there are lots of them but a lot of them are that much younger than I am and I don't think I want to be Mrs Macron.


You know Mrs. Robinson. No. Mrs. Robinson. No, no, no. That you were. But you get what I mean. You get what I mean. Yes. Yeah.


Mm. Had you. I'm going to help. I'm not sure there is an answer. I think look at that date range. And if and if they if you're in that if they're in the tight range they put, then it's fair game, I suppose, if you like them or not. That's that's it. Well, what is you difficulty that you would feel uncomfortable if they were that much younger?


No, I think it's probably no, I don't think that I feel uncomfortable making is that they would probably look at me and say, what is this woman? Why she even contacting me? I mean, she's much older than I am.


And it's been a long, long time since I've used dating sites. But from from way back when I did, I think it was like either eHarmony or Match.com. I think then they actually asked you what your what you're looking for and then you put a date range in there. So they're showing up on your profile. And if dating websites work the same way as they did back then, then surely they take that box to that. You want to meet women?


You think it is, and then, yeah, otherwise it wouldn't come up, although I did join a new a new website recently. Okay, keep it. And I specified I was happy to meet people within 25 miles of my house. And when and within the first 24 hours, I had one person from Iran, two from the Philippines, one from South Africa. And I'm pretty sure none of those places is 25 miles within my house, basically.


So. The algorithms can be a bit weird sometimes, I think, but I think you can it and that's what I'm finding. And, you know, it's the one thing the rest I can navigate. But this one is a bit. Yeah, if it makes you feel any better, said the girl, I'm going on a date with twenty five. Lucky you. Yeah, well done so well, life in the out sucks. Yeah, I mean, how do you island someone else?


Well, OK, you're young.


There's a difference when it's a man going out with a younger, as I call it. What sort of thing? Where is the woman that's going? It's like, well, what's wrong with you?


Why do you need to worry about it right now?


There's a lot. Is the way that society responds to it is a lot different, depending on the gender. My mother my mother was older than my father by 10 years, and they were married in 1975, 1975. So there are there are plenty of people who do transcend the boundaries, I think.


And I don't I don't think you should be held, but I think it depends on how much you feel like you could cope with the pressures of society and the society.


That doesn't bother me.


I don't care if you feel like you could cope with that. And I don't personally see why you shouldn't explore it first.


But the thing is, OK, it's it's about me because first and foremost, when I tell people my age they don't believe me half of the half of the time. OK, so that's that. So it's it all out. You know, I so I'm fine where that is concerned, but it's to say aha. Yeah. OK, yeah. OK, I like you, I will talk to you, I want to talk to you kind of thing and I'm going to get a reaction.


Oh but I don't want to talk to this older woman. What is it that you want your Robin to create the kind of thing. I think it's more the reaction from the person that I'm. I'm not willing to to to to see what they might see if it's going to be. Not insulting, but not complimentary. That's, I guess, some I guess some guys value you. That's my boat there.


I think that's that's the same for everyone. That's just a fear of rejection, isn't it? Because we think rejection is personal, but really rejection is projection because rejection is is based on us believing we're like it's about us where there's nothing to do with us.


But I've contacted other people. I've made contact with other people and we've spoken and everything. But they are in my age group that I don't have a problem with that it's, you know, OK, yeah, he's 50. Do I dare say hello? And you say, oh, but you yeah. You're too old for me kind of thing. And why do you want to talk to me kind of thing is that, that's not nice.


He says that find a forty eight year old instead is a bad reaction.


I agree. Yeah that's a good thing. I think we know we all need to have that sort of a certain level of resilience and being OK with who we are because, you know, if a guy knocks, says he's not interested because I've got a kid, I'm not going to feel bad about being a mother or bad about having a child. You know, he just doesn't want somebody with a child. And that's OK. You know, he's not he's not ready to be a father and doesn't want to be a father to somebody else, somebody else's child.


So I just I don't see it as a reflection of being something flawed within me or something wrong with him. It's just it is what it is.


This this comes up for me a lot because I've often fail on dating apps and sites. I meet women and I don't. And yeah, I mean, it's a personal thing. And I don't want my preference is to date someone who doesn't have kids already just because I don't know, I have lots of feelings and thoughts about it. But yeah, it's not at all a reflection on or a judgement on the other person.


Yeah. But I think some women feel that they need to hide that because they feel they might be judged or definitely.


But I think of these things about being comfortable with ourselves where, where we're at war situations and being comfortable with not everybody is going to be OK with that. And that doesn't isn't a reflection of them being a bad person or or not being good enough. It just doesn't fit and it's OK. No, OK.


My difficulty is not getting a response. My difficulty is people who are absolutely rude and abusive.


And that's what I'm trying to and thinking that possibly anybody who is significantly younger than I could possibly be rude in response. That is my fear. Because you think you could heal from that.


Do you feel like you could you could repair from that if they did?


No, no. My problem is that I'm afraid of my rage. I get very angry. I get angry and I start. I will. And that's what I don't want. I want to enjoy the experience. That's the point. And I'm afraid that I will respond and be angry at it.


Will need some confidence to breathe through your anger and to just.


But still. But I'm being honest, OK? Because that's. No, no.


I hear where you're coming from. So you don't want to take them risks because you don't want this side of you that you don't want to come out to come out.


You've got it. You know, I hey, I understand where you're coming from.


I just want it to be pleasant and I want it to be thick. And if you're not interested, just tell me.


So, like, OK, I met a gentleman I can't even actually was on Tinder.


It was hilarious. But he spends half his time in New York and he spends six months in London with his at his son's place. But when he's in London, he's totally absorbed in his son and his grandchildren's lives. He's he's caring for them. He fixes them breakfast. He spends the entire time with them, which says to me, OK, that means that there is no time here. I've got pictures and they're lovely and all the rest of it.


And we chatted and so forth. So as a friend.


He's he's fine, we can and we talk about lots of stuff, but there is nothing to happen because he's totally engrossed in that part of his life.


OK, and so.


And that's fine, I accept it and it's fine and we have a conversation and he's he's a nice gentleman and all the rest of it, but nothing's going to happen and we probably will never meet covid are no Corvin if you if you know what I mean, because we're just friends, that kind of friend.


But if I speak to somebody who is.


And also, it's the kind of thing where, you know, some people can be so rude because they're a slightly different age group to you. Oh, yes. You know, they don't there's not much to talk about or connect with and bridge that divide. So how far does one go? That's the other question. I suppose you have to try and find out by meeting the person. That's the that's the thing. But my initial thing is how do you.


So to speak, to someone. And they are not and they're just not rude. You can't there's no there is no magic formula. Some people are just going to glimmers of that. Yeah, you should you should blast them.


I think you should blast them if they're going to really blossom.


Don't get into a protracted discussion with them. But I think that's your favorite. Then definitely express your displeasure because they should know that you don't want to hear it.


You know, I've seen you in action.


I've seen you in action, Sandra. So that were supposed to go there.


I mean, there are some sites and I have noticed I think there's a couple a couple of which what it was. But this one, there is actually a sort of that's like a behavior code. So maybe like steer towards those ones. And because then you can sort of report people if they all rage, because there's no there's no excuse for that, really. If they're showing up in your profile, it's not your fault, is it? You know, they are kind of fair game in some respects if they are showing up in your profile.


So you shouldn't be you shouldn't be afraid on a dating site to respond to someone who's appearing in your profile, should you? That's the whole point of the dating site. So it's not your fault. OK, so when I need you, I will call you and say, look, I'll be waiting for you if you want.


It sounds like loads of makeup on a million dollars, I would probably imagine, if I did that.


Oh, my God. Oh, my hair extensions. No, thank you.


I draw the line there.


Oh, no, no phones, eyelashes, maybe. The question so sometimes when guys some guys are fine, they're like they're happy to move sort of slow pace and not trying to rush you off the apple rush for you. What's up? Number and all the rest of it. And all the guys are like, no, come on. You know, trying to rush off the OP, trying to get you what's up, trying to, you know, take things at a pace that you might not be necessarily comfortable with.


But I prefer the guys doing that. You just don't feel from them because they're just not they've not got the same mentality. And it's not like I'm not going to meet them all. They don't want to meet the just a bit more relaxed about the whole situation, I guess. And as soon as I see these tell tale signs of these guys trying to sort of Varosha.


Am I being to not pay cable? Am I right just to go? You know what I can tell straight away, you know, for me, just stop them little things right at the beginning, or am I being too hasty?


Are you telling them we just you just cut him off? No, I'm just I'm just asking in general. Would you initiate Sasha, because I think what I feel is like getting the right balance between sort of having to take the initiative and take the lead, but not be too pushy. And I think it's man and woman pull into the traditional roles of the man will take the lead in this. I don't know. I just find it very hard.


It's not so much about the lead.


I think my question is more like I cut things off with a lot of guys very quickly and very early on. And I guess what my question is, is if these small telltale signs right at the beginning, am I being reasonable to off of those reasons?


And I think because I have experienced the guys that I feel more comfortable with right from the start. So personal choice is now, I suppose it's I mean, you could possibly be picking off people who might be good for you or you might actually get it, but if that's what you don't like, then then that's your choice. And I think you have to sort of, you know, choose stand by those choices, I suppose. Wide-screen. Sorry, not.


Well, I was just going to say that I think it's I think I think kind of like Bederson is kind of difficult sometimes to know how to pace to pace it, because obviously we all when we have the dating the dating session on the hair with the dating sites, obviously, I think a lot of men are quite conscious that but it's quite a competitive world for the ladies. So obviously, I suppose, you know, the men maybe think that they need to speed things along a little bit because the women are probably getting so much more attention.


So I think there's probably a little insecurity there, basically, but it's quite tough. You know, you get the feeling that there's you know, there is highly competitive from our point of view, which is probably possibly why some men try and go a bit faster. Really, I mean, the ones that are going slow might be married or something for you now, you don't know.


They basically say, you know, I I think I think a lot of men is the competitiveness. They feel like the longer that they leave you there to talk with to it, you're going to be talking to other people and they're going to miss their chance, this or just self.


There's also people feel. That some women will say that they want they don't we can forever and they want to meet someone and meet. And so they may have been like that in the past. I think if you if you tell them what your you know, that's too fast, I'm not comfortable doing that.


And then how they react, it tells you everything. So I think you're going to get old behaviors on dating sites and what you're doing is filtering. So, for example, with Sandra, it's better that you know someone. Who's going to behave like that before you actually meet? And so you want to see bad behavior because if you take all the people on a dating site, there's a certain percentage that are going to be stopped because there's a certain percentage that are going to be rude.


There's a certain percentage that are going to be entitled. They're going to be arrogant. They're going to cheat.


If you can figure that out, the quicker you can figure that out, then that's all dating sites are about. It's about sorting people into which power that they are.


And then just to go back to to Sondra's and the rage. Because it was about your fear of your reaction underneath. Anger is always fear. And so if you look at what your what the fear is and deal with the fear that deals with the anger, but you want to see bad behavior. And if you can see that the earlier you can see the bad behavior, the better is the worst thing is to not see it until two years and.


But so so, Sasha, I would I would say, no, I'm not comfortable at that, and then see what happens if they push, then, you know that they just want their own way.


And if they don't, then, you know, you like you've set down the marker of that part of negotiation.


I think. What a. S.O.P. From the men's point of view, what's your like when your. On dating sites, are you trying to meet someone quickly or. I am just because I think it was like. It's hard to know get a sense of someone's true personality by text, and I feel like it's a bit of a it sounds a bit harsh, but I feel like it's a waste if I'm messaging someone for, like a couple of weeks and then I meet them and decide that I don't like them or we don't we're not compatible.


I view the texting as just a means to me. I can understand, you know, people are cautious and want to take the time to get to know people via text before they meet up with a complete stranger, basically.


I'm personally happy to meet people quite quickly, face to face. It's the sharing of information. I don't want their phone numbers and personal information and stuff like the. Yeah, I understand that there is know you can have Google Voices is a way that you can chat without. Given away your phone, no. So it's like anonymous and safe. And some of the apps now have some kind of voice calling, video calling even. I'm sorry, I interrupted, you're in the middle of in the man's perspective on things.


Well, well, yeah, I think we. I think generally women prefer to say, well, society says you're quite happy to meet up quickly. What's the I was asking for men because it's typically tends to be men drive. Looking to me earlier, whereas women tend to be more cautious than average. I have I have seen women complaining that men don't meet quickly enough. Oh, I'll meet you there. Don't worry, I'll meet you. I'd like to see what I'd like to see what I'm looking at.


I like to see what I'm talking to.


I want just who I will meet. I have no problem with me. Did you? And then I'll decide if I keep talking to you. But I have another question. But it's not so much of a question, but an observation. There are some people who and maybe it's the dynamic that gets established between people, you know, to start talking that they get into a groove and they never seem to get out of that groove. So it's a kind of a big they're almost like they're comfortable from the very beginning and they're in one mode and they never shift gears that they don't change.


So if you're trying to build a relationship with that person, it's like being stuck in second gear ain't going no place.


But you could have expended quite a bit of effort getting to know that person.


It's nice. It's comfortable. They're laid back. They're they're all right there. You know, they took quite a lot of boxes, but. They never shift. That it's that is that all that they want from the relationship? Do they even consider it to be a relationship? That's probably the next question that would come to my mind. Or is it just a friendship? It's something that's something, you know, like a holding pattern, convenient sort of thing.


And so even if you make the necessary you know, the moves on the person to say suggest the relationship going a step further.


Nothing happens. They're not budging. I don't know if you've come across people like that. Yeah, I think the key I think the problem we talked about people wanting to rush things is the key to it is momentum it needs to build on. So it needs to. So too quick is uncomfortable. And then too, like not building any momentum means it never goes anywhere. So it needs to escalate.


I don't know. Some of it is I think there's there's the holding pattern. Some of it is some people never want to meet. Some people are married and it's like they're vicarious release. Some people are scared, some people, that the dream is better than the reality. Let's get a shot of that dream. I mean, you don't know that's the thing with online, you don't know, you might be talking to an agoraphobic. He's never going to meet someone who's stuck in a miserable marriage and just wants this place.


Yes, you just I know I was messaging a girl recently and we were arranging to meet up and she said and she canceled on two dates that we'd arranged and I confronted her on it. And it basically turned out that she she was stringing me along because she lived with her elderly mother and she was just afraid about passing on cultivate. But she she didn't want to kind of let me go, as it were, but she was just genuinely concerned.


So maybe that's another thing in this current current time that people are worried about might stop them from me enough and then endlessly messaging that.


Yeah, but I think you can still see interest, even if it's virtual in terms of how the conversations progress versus somebody who just is probably just in it as as Rob is saying, for other reasons that you don't know anything about and which don't coincide with what you're looking for and in your invested into something that is really just taken from you and not giving you much back.


Yeah, I mean, I think if. If it's not moving anywhere and nothing, if you suggest it and it doesn't go anywhere, then. I mean, just the interest is going to die. And so I think you need to have sort of like markers like sort of as progression goes on to sort of not waste time. So say by this amount of time, I should have met the person face to face. And by this amount of time, we should move things forward so that it's not sort of being procrastinate and loads of time being wasted.


I've been asked to produce a sort of solution to that problem, maybe, but I think it depends on the situation, because if someone is a doctor and they're going to be like five days where they literally work in 16 hours a day and they come message, then maybe it's because of that. And it's not a lack of interest.


I think it's knowing if you know what's on the other side, you've still not met that person three months down the line and you find time. To me, what I'm saying is maybe they should be like Mochis. And if you've not met past a certain date, then it might be time to go. You know, this isn't this is just a waste of time.


Well, if they can't find time to even meet you once out, you've got to find signs of a relationship with.


Hmm. They're not adding. Yes, true. AEG is hoping to meet someone and they always counsel in in that kind of emotionally struggling with it. And I just think if MOCA's and you are going to follow you face off and not hang around for this person, that's just messing about for whatever insecurity or problem they've got, the reality of the situation is that you are hoping for something that's not moving forward. Know, I think it can accommodate combat itself, doesn't it?


You know, if you're if you're looking to meet someone, if that's the idea, you're looking to meet someone and you don't meet them. They are not fulfilling your goals because you are looking to meet somebody, so why even bother? It just comes down to your own self-esteem and I see nothing wrong with saying, look, you know, you seem like a nice person. I enjoy speaking to you on the phone. You know, we've got some good video, video chats, interest and texts, whatever it might be.


But the reality is a money based on doing all this virtual stuff is informational if you want me to. Yeah. OK, to do it in the next two weeks. If we don't, then I'm just going to have to say goodbye. Goodbye. There's nothing wrong with that could fill in your needs as an individual. Otherwise, what's the point. You may as well just go on the Internet and do whatever, because it's not real if you don't meet any any idiot can send text county, any idiot can talk the talk over the phone or even do a little video chat.


But it's completely different to sitting in front of somebody in a real influence with real patient and engaging in conversation. That's totally different because people hide behind technology that they're not real sorry.


That's OK. But I think people have have noticed this outside of a dating context where one of the other landlords in my building and he I find it very clear in his email communications, but when you meet him, he's like a really lovely, friendly guy. And I've concluded from that that he just has a very different idea about the way to communicate in email. And I've noticed it with dating, whereby some like people I've thought of, they seem a bit rude or abrupt or a bit in their text messaging, you know, not enough emojis or anything.


But then I meet them in there and they're lovely. And I think people just have different ideas about what certain communication is for. So I agree. And that's one of the reasons why I try to meet someone as soon as possible, because I don't think that their text personality is completely different. Often they're in face to face personality. There I think you got a lot more of me meeting people face to face for sure. I think it is a very important part of it personally.


Skip all of the electronic stuff. Sometimes I think, though, that we have to be understanding or give some leeway to people, because I give an example of a young gentleman that I interviewed some. My goodness, probably about 15 years ago for a job.


And the young man, he came for the interview, his letter was his letter of application was very confident. And but once he got into the interview room and there are two of us interviewing him, he fell to pieces just in the room with us. And we are not that much older than he he was and just a relaxed kind of atmosphere. He started sweating. And he started choking. We gave him water. We send him to the loo so that he could wash his face.


He could not. He just fell apart. And I think meeting someone for the first time, having the potential for a possible relationship could probably trigger some of that response in a female or male. And as a result of that, that fear keeps them from seeing they probably promised. Yes, I would like to meet. I'd like to meet. And then they can start to go clammy and everything and they start to fall apart and they just can't they just can't come to me to and it's not that bad about them, but about I'm just nervous sometimes.


That's why it's important to give the person time and to let them come out of the shell before you make a decision about them. And I'll give you two scenarios. Right. One guy I was asking, don't you want to meet face to face on instead of just being forward and saying, you know, I wouldn't let anyone since I got divorced and I'm really nervous and X, Y and Z, he was like sort of really defensive and came off like you even the person that you say you are and like going around because really he was just nervous about me and in person.


And so that was like that went really downhill really fast. And it's like, I'm going to report you. And I was like, you know, report me. And then you'll see my profile still next week. And then you'll realize that I am actually the person that I say that I am. But then there was another guy who was speaking to me and it was like, OK, do you want to meet soon? And he was like, Oh, well, I am.


I need to let you know I'm really shy and a missing person. And, you know, it's the contrast between someone being honest about the real situation and then somebody being funny because they can't identify their own. Problem and being able to be forward with eyes, that makes sense. Or are just too aggressive. I am. Obviously, that came out as aggression and him, but I think the real issue was he was just nervous.


And I think the difference is between one guy being able to say, look, I'm nervous and another guy just can't even identify or he's just behaving in a way that's completely erratic.


And then he's given them giving people a chance to sort of if they are really nervous, giving them that time to sort of open up a little bit.


Yeah, I think someone is able to be honest about it is. You understand that the problem is you just don't understand what's going on on the other side of the screen. We are with both parties will have some level of nerves, no matter how confident you are, you're still going to feel some amount of nerves meeting a new person, because you know, the context within which you're meeting that person is not that you just bounced into somebody and you say, excuse me, and you start checking your meeting for up for a reason and one might be more nervous than the other.


But nonetheless, there is. Still a lot of nerves on both both both sides, and I think for one person. I suppose the more confident person is they know that you are that nervous can help to reassure you that it is and make you feel a lot more comfortable so that you will want to get there and meet them. And it's not the end of the world. And I suppose, like for me when I'm saying I really don't want to meet somebody who was rude or aggressive and what have you.


It's of the same kind of thing. They're nervous and think that they're going to meet somebody who might just reject them out of hand. So maybe. That's that same ballpark with me, you know. I remember when I first started dating one of the early days I had was so in the time leading up to it, I was kind of messager and so pure anticipation. And then we met and it turned out I didn't know what she was deaf.


And so we went out to dinner and they didn't have a vegetarian thing or something. And anyway, she calls the scene and she was shouting about being really loud.


And I didn't realize she was deaf until after. And it turned out because she was nervous. And so I was sending text sort of like to to build up to the night and it was making it more and more nervous here. She was drinking and drinking. She was drunk on the night. And then with her not being deaf, not realizing she was shouting, had not realizing all the staff and her husband is here. So, yeah, I mean, when people don't tell you, you don't know.


And so. You just read into the behavior, well, if you're able to just be honest and you know, this is what I'm feeling. There is a gentle fellow at the time he was at university with me in Jamaica. I never met him. I didn't know that he was in my faculty. Somehow I don't know this man. You know, eight years after we met on the campus and he sat beside me, there was some I was doing something with a mentorship group and stuff.


And he sat beside me and he said we were introduced and he said to me, You won't remember me, but I liked you so much on campus. But I was so afraid that you would not even say hello to me. I thought you were out of my league. And he was the cutest thing that I had seen for a long time. I was sitting beside and I said, Oh, my God, you are such a missed opportunity.


I would have to talk to you, he says, I thought that you would not speak to me. So he missed opportunity because he thought that I was this. I would just look at him and say, and we need to we need to I suppose we need to overcome our fears. And if people are just normal, the most that they can do and I'm telling myself this now they can do to you is to tell, you know, I'm not interested and, you know.


And you've tried a new move on, if it is not if it is a no, you see actually, you know, like dinosaurs who sign a seven and a half billion people, it's true.


There's so many people that you could be in a relationship with. But what stops us is when we overinvest on that one person in a friend, you waiting a year to meet one person who you've got no idea or anything about, or we we make judgments for other people when we say no, for other people. If we if you could just navigate without the fear of rejection, without overinvesting in someone that you don't really know, it's so easy. You just sort people into where they are until you and so you can move through the number of people in your dating field and it just becomes so much easier.


But it's it's all of fear and anxiety means that we overinvest, we are afraid to say what we really mean, we don't. We make judgments for other people. We work ourselves up into nerves. It doesn't really matter. It's just. This is who I am. Do you like me? And it's not it's in all fields that we make these judgments of what's good, what's not good. You know, I've been listening to Elizabeth Gilbert's book, Big Magic, and just talking about she's all about writing and artists artistic things and just she said I had a contract that I was going to write and I wasn't in demand that my writing paid for me.


I was just going to write. And she wrote six books and she said, I put the same amount of effort into the mall. And I feel like I put some of them were better. And then it was eat, pray, love that that popped for no reason. And she said even the things that people people came to her books on and say, like, you changed my life. And it's this part of the book. And she gives an example of one woman said to her in your book, Let me leave my relationship with that bit, where you said where you served divorce papers on your ex-husband and said you weren't going to tolerate his abusive behavior anymore.


That made me leave. And she said that there's nothing like that in the book, but she projected that onto the book. Same thing with when you're dating and that people are projecting things on you and it's not about us, you might say the one word that they're ex used to say might be that you have the colored T-shirt that their ex was wearing, something about that that reminds them of someone that's got nothing to do with the. And of course, that's the other thing is that people make snap judgments of people that they don't really know based on what's in that picture, what's on one side of their profile or something like that.


I think also we are we feel as though we need to act now, we we have to we are in a hurry. We sometimes can't stop to observe and let things simmer. And just it's it's all about I suppose it's because, as you say, there are seven billion of us and we feel the need that if we don't catch it now, whatever it is, it will escape us. We will lose it forever. We will. And then we've got to start all over again or it's an opportunity that's gone forever.


And so there's that anxiety in us that if we don't strike now, somebody else is going to strike and outcompete us, get there ahead of us and.


And that drives a different kind of behavior as well, because anxiety makes us act impulsively sometimes rather than thinking things through and taking maybe the necessary time. Yeah, that's very true. Right by Sasha. I think as well, thanks, everyone, been great, thanks a lot. We'll see you then. Thanks. Thanks for being here. I think. If you've been dating for a while, you see like people disappear and then they come back and disappear and come back and this.


When you look at most relationships don't work out. So even if someone beats you to the to this one person, they're probably going to be back in a year or two years. And. A lot of the people like if we look at everyone is on this call and everyone who's dating and looking for someone, probably the person that you.


Me, three months, six months. Who is the right kind of person, they might not even be single at the moment. Or they might have just single and they're not ready to date, but they're not on that, you've got no idea of who's coming and who it's going to be in. I think that's the part it's a bit like Elizabeth Gilbert says, I like our work is to listen to inspiration. It's to. Give it our best, but not not be judged by it, like what other people read into it is different than your job, like she's told before about do you know her TED talk was about genius.


And so the Greeks had the idea that we all had a diamond and a diamond was I like intelligent, I don't know, maybe you might say like Angel, but not that more like myself type thing and. Its job was to give us ideas. Its job was to sort of guide us, and so the Roman name for that was genius. And so the Romans had the idea that we had a genius. So if you did great work, it wasn't because of you, it was because your genius did it.


And if you did shitty work, it was because genius was having an off day. And so there was the pressure and the personalization, but it came about from the Renaissance where the idea of a genius became, I am a genius as opposed to I have a genius and say now people feel all this pressure to be a genius and they need to you know, it's like Donald Trump and. Jeb Bush and George Bush have all claimed to be self-made man, self-made man.


Well, George Bush was the son of a president who was born into millions. He was born into the connections that created everything for him. Jeb Bush had a father and a brother who were president. Donald Trump was given everything he got and. Arguably lost more than he gained, and yet they're claiming that they made it so there's no one. Even if you read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, it shows that. He showed that Bill Gates and. Bill Gates and everyone like that, it was from the opportunity, like a different time, they would never have been able to.


So it's it's our culture, it's the people around us. It's what ideas have gone before that shape us. And our work is just to show up and do the best that we can. And some, like some things are too early. Some things are too late. And it's exactly the same with dating. It's just to show up, show who you are. Maybe it's what someone is looking for. Maybe it's not. I think that's another layer of that, is that we've got to be receptive at the right time.


But we may think that we are receptive to any attention to overtures for our attention, et cetera, but are we really and truly receptive? How do we make that assessment that we are receptive to other people's interest in us?


I think that comes down to this question as well or statement is that our work is to develop an awareness, to develop an awareness, to evolve and to be receptive. Our work is to be in the right state. Our work is to develop our understanding as much as there is of relationships and emotional development and be in the right state. That's our job. To show up is the best answer that we can. Yeah, but OK, there is the question of of self-assessment and there is the perception of people looking on you.


I mean, in other words, there are two realities of of you, the person.


And I think for some of us, if we are not confident enough in ourselves and who we are, it's the perception of the others that define us or control how we define ourselves and how do we create a balance wherein we have enough confidence to look at ourselves and define and decide what what needs work, what does need work, what we're comfortable with, the fact that we like ourselves as we are versus what is being put on us as what others think that we ought to be or that we are or that we are not.


Well, if we lack confidence, then we trust others more than ourselves. That's confidence is trust in yourself. So the work is to develop the confidence, because if you don't have the confidence, you're vulnerable. You're vulnerable to being manipulated, you're vulnerable of being controlled, and you're vulnerable of you're going to live your life by someone else's rules. So it's about developing that confidence that and if you don't have that confidence. Then then will you have confidence, but it's what do you have confidence in?


So confidence is about the belief and the trust in that something will work. So what do you believe that work? And if you believe in something else like society's rules, why? OK, but OK, but society's rules, and that's that's another conversation, I would think, because that's that's complex, because we abide by by by the rules of our culture so that we can fit in.


Well, there's certain shared agreements, but when you take on like the makeup issue is a confidence and it's confidence because you believe that there's a standard for beauty that you have to make. Which is a subculture. Yeah, but you don't have to believe cultural, cultural conditioning you if you don't override it. So it comes down to who he's the sovereign who who who has sovereignty over how you feel. And you can even run it like most people do from societies.


And then you're going to be played into the whole makeup thing that you're going to have to wear the skin care because otherwise you're going to be feel unworthy or you're going to. You're basically going to be a puppet for whatever someone else wants you to do. And. So. Having responsibility, taking responsibility for yourself. Means that you you have to direct where your trust is, which means you learn as much as you can. And. You. You decide your rules, but it's taking responsibility for them.


But that's OK, that's easy to say, but if you do not have the necessary tools or awareness to develop that self-confidence or that confidence in self. You could be trying to do something, but with. With, with or without the necessary inputs, you don't know what you're doing. So how does one in that situation then develop? That sense of self, that core strength that does not that keeps you centered and keeps you stable so that you don't move off into the latest fad.


You're not swayed by all kinds of.


Tangential stuff, and but you you remain true to yourself, do you act on problems I think is from problems, because if you don't do that, you get problems and when the only way to solve a problem properly is by really analyzing what's the cause of it and the causes of it comes down to you believe something that wasn't true. You went along with what was programmed rather than reality.


So if you really work through a problem, you're going to see where the causes you see what you believed it was. It was your emotional vulnerability or something like that, which basically amounts to you took someone else's opinion of yours, which led you to strike. And I think until you recognize that, you'll keep having different problems. So it starts with a self belief that you can make the right decisions for yourself. How about yourself? About what's important, about what's right, about what's right for you, about what I think it might mean or it might come that you follow the rules and you do this but that.


If if something is flawed, right, there's a breaking point, so if something is flawed, there's going to come a point where it is put under enough pressure, by challenge, by life that it's going to break and you're going to have a problem.


So if you look at relationship problems. They come from the framework of how we understand relationships. They come because we're emotionally vulnerable and we lack confidence. And so we we follow we do all these things for validation or some kind of result. So. Every one of those, if you're off track, is going to lead to a problem. And when you analyze the problem back, it's going to come to what you believed about relationships, where you believed about yourself or you believed about other people, and that wasn't true.


So for me, that's why I say you have to build on truth, because when you build on truth, you've built on a stable foundation that can't be can't be broken, can't be disrupted. So. Yes, that's really how I said what you're saying is if someone is unconfident and doesn't realize that, well, I think you just got to pay attention enough to the problem. And go to the root of them and can see that, I mean, like everything I believe about relationships has come from the study of problems, it's come from someone's got a problem.


OK, well, where's that problem come from? Was that cause that and seeing the same problems see the same patterns. And then if you break that down right back to the like the core ingredients, that's really how I developed the framework of like the fortress and all of that.


His answer, your question, yeah, I'm just thinking that if you haven't resolved that, then you're going to be projecting all of those inadequacies into the dating game.


Yes, yeah. And and you run the risk of repeating the same things that made you. Yeah. I had a feeling or whatever, you know, in the past.


So it's learning. And change in behavior to a different outcome. And it's. Do you enter the dating game with all these new variables, because that's what online dating is, it has a different set of variables than the traditional boy invites girl up to the movies and you go and sit and, you know, whatever.


But that's just called Netflix and chill now.


OK, so. Well, yeah. So but even so, there is what I'm trying to get at is understand what you're saying, but there is a process and you've made certain mistakes or things didn't work out for you. But there are lessons to be learned from that experience which you have to. Recognize, and then, as you say, problem solved. How do you resolve those issues? Before you get into another set of every so every problem is even knowledge, skills, confidence, and so it's about developing your knowledge, developing your skills and developing your confidence.


To a certain extent, you can improve. You can be more emotionally resilient. But you. Some. Some areas you're never going to know unless you're in the context, so you could imagine what you like about how a relationship is, you could read about a relationship, how it is, but unless you're actually in there doing it, you're never going to actually really see what the problems are.


So there's a certain amount of healing you can do on your own. And then a lot of relationship wins have to be healed in a relationship like Dr. Mario Martinez talks about healing relationship wounds and basically as physical wounds, which is shame, betrayal and abandonment and shame is cured, is healed by honoring, by being honored in a relationship. Abandonment is healed by being loyalty within the relationship and betrayal is.


Or abandonment is by staying working for and staying in a relationship and betrayal with loyalty, something like that, is this free feels. So the reason relationships are so difficult, why so many relationships don't work is because we don't have the knowledge, we don't have the skills and we don't have the confidence.


And so whatever extent you like, there's no end. There is no point that you're ever going to go, okay, I've got my degree. And that say I am going to be fine. You still will have problems and. I think. Part of relationships is understanding that isn't. It isn't that we reached somewhere. It's that relationships are a journey, that relationships are the context in which we learn who we are and like our identity. I think I write something about this in the week or last week about relationships as a quest.


Relationships are really a quest rather than something we achieve. And like I was writing something today about like the hero's journey, you know, the hero's journey where we have challenges and trials and and mentors and things like that relationship is really about going along that journey.


And that's the context. And I think this goes back to what Daniel Sloss was talking about. In terms of. We have to see relationships as an aspect of our life, they're not we're there for the relationship. It's the basic building block of a relationship is the individuals in it, and it's the. If you look at organizations, there isn't really anything you can touch, you know, when you say government, when you say BP or Tesco or whatever company, there isn't a real organization.


That's just a shared belief in that. The only thing that really matters is people and all, everything else, organizations, governments, relationships are in service to individuals. And it's a relationship is the byproduct of how involved we are, how well we treat each other. And Alan, sort of taken in the chat, the other aspect of it, and I think there is a balance and, you know, like what about the opposite? What if someone has more confidence than competence?


And that's really a lot of people trying to cover up incompetence with hubris and they try to project confidence. And if you have confidence without competence, then you're like, that's where you're going to crash and burn because you're just trying to cover up. It's just about authenticity of of knowing who you are and what level you like, what your competence is, because confidence is only are our trust in ourselves. And if we've got too much trust in ourselves, we think we can jump off the cliff.


Then we crash and we crash and burn.


So I think by the comments that Rob is over, speaking from a personal point of view, because I was thinking when I was driving back from the gym earlier on today and of course, my my opinion of myself, and I don't mean in any way from an arrogance or type of view point of view at all. My opinion of myself as someone who would like to be considered myself as a decent person, considerate of other people, is far from self-centered.


And that is projected both in a personal life and in a professional career as well. And I think that the people who do know me. I would also have the same opinion. However, the people that don't don't know me, I often get the opinion that. They don't think those things and they would make some quick judgments, so to speak, and.


Well, that's what I'm kind of coming from with the deflective question of how I see myself wouldn't necessarily be able to see.


And. Yeah, I I think we all know you well in the extent of the interactions we've had and we would say that I think the people who have been here regularly would we would all have that view of yourself as well. The thing is, if you see serial killers or you see. People like criminals or people, most people would would. Say, who aren't all those things, they also see themselves in that way and they portray themselves and say that they're kind and they consider it and I've always got time for other people.


So why people don't necessarily believe it's because everybody claims that. And so the thing is that what what other people are going to see is not necessarily. What there is what people see over time is is how they get to know you like I know I know that my first impression, I come off as arrogant and aloof and is only as people get to know me over time that they would like me. But I don't I know I don't give the best first impression.


And it's a bit like I remember lousy story that he was accused of, but now was the founder of Thousand and this like great wisemen man. And he was falsely accused. I think he was accused of rape or something like that. And everyone believed the woman and cast him out and he just went. And in time, they found that she was lying and and realized. It wasn't him, so I think people's impressions of you. Initially. Not saying it doesn't matter, but you can't control that because their impression of you in a snapshot is there is their judgment.


And you I think you just have to be you and let people see you over time. Does that make sense? Yeah, I mean, I know, like if if if for business or for like dating, know you want to make the initial first impression, but most people's first impressions are flawed and. Not necessarily true. And you can't unless you project something, I mean, you can present yourself better. Yeah, exactly. Than judge a book by the cover.


But people do nice books bought by the cover. And it's just recognizing that the real deep relationships are the people that stick around and you over time. And most people really don't care. Most people don't care that you're busy on their own, in their own lives to really. Pay much attention to other people. We're all worried about what other people think of us and most people really aren't thinking very much about. Yeah, I think it's because it's like, you know, obviously you had a lot of people with low self-esteem and the messages build up your self-esteem and then kind of everything come into place.


And I'm not saying that things aren't in place in my life just from a different point of view. But you've also got the other thing in the mix, which I'm kind of thrown in Nagas. Having a high shelf with and then still kind of things. Don't really go as you believe they should be, so to speak. A lot of people will be frightened because you have high self-esteem and it will make them feel threatened. And which is kind of what I was getting at with the with the makeup, I think, to some extent.


When a woman looks more attractive, it makes a man more frightened. On some level, because if there is that level that there is a sense of in my league, out of my league and people have a range, and if someone has put on like the make up and they've they've jumped from there to there, it's kind of like, right. You are my league. But with that makeup you've gone to there and it feels because there is all this sort of dynamics of status, there's there's like your core self esteem.


And then there's also social status. And it's two different things. But yeah, it's I mean, this I don't know if you've ever read that or seen that pilots attributed to Mother Teresa, but it came before her. But people are unkind. People are unfair. People will mistreat you. People will persecute you. Let them just because you can't stop that. Yeah, that's good, that's good, that's a good poem. I think in the end, it's about as long as we can look in the mirror ourselves and feel good.


Then. Then I said, I think, like you've talked before, about people who are maybe a little bit frightened or jealous. Which happens when you when you feel stable and. You know, you've got self-worth that can be frightening to other people. Yeah, I have it in a professional career where where someone made up lies about me because I was so good at my job and. And actually ended up getting suspended in the role and I don't know, I hadn't done nothing wrong, all of that is going to really.


Basically, we had a number of outcomes and I was meeting more outcomes than the rest of the ten people put together. And so I think you're right, it must have been like a threat, a jealousy thing, and I wasn't doing it from an ego point of view either. I was just doing it because I cared about the people I was working with, you know.


That that I mean, that's probably the most difficult part of of working in an organization is because most of it is political and you've got to deal with all the intrigue and all the egos. And it's not just about doing a good job. It's about meeting political aims and being seen to to do it.


Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of years ago, but it's still it's still makes you think.


Hmm. Yeah, as you said, though, and, yeah, I think this is something that we have to develop some kind of a tough, tough, tough exterior to to cope with. And that is, as you say, there is a good attribute that you possess. People see it. And there are those who probably would like to have that or be seen to possess that attribute. But their reaction to you having it is one that is either one of jealousy or just plain dislike, that they even go out of their way to make you uncomfortable or feel that feel something.


And that is the part that I find very difficult. And yes, it has happened. I understand what Alan is saying. I remember a fellow telling me and he was he he was doing something that was not appropriate. He was you know, when men shout at you from across the car park and expect you to think and, you know, I was at university and I refused, I don't answer people like that. I mean, if you want to speak to me up and speak to me.


And so he did come up to me. Do you know how arrogant you are? That was his greeting to me. But in my estimation, he was rude. You don't sit across the car park, I'm not a dog or something that you call in, you want to speak to me, come and speak to me and. And so in his mind, he needs to insult me. And telling me that I'm arrogant, he doesn't know me, and I looked at him and I said to him.


There's a difference between arrogance and confidence and having good manners, and if you wish to speak to me just like what you're doing now, what you're saying, I'm not arrogant, but I know who I am. And if I thought that I wasn't thinking anything, I was 18. So all of what you're saying? No, to me, I didn't know.


But I knew who I was and that I'm not a plaything, that you, you know, you become your comerio or whatever, and but for him, he must bring me down. And that is the part that I say that to see that it's just fighting that constant drip, drip, drip of people coming at you with negative negative responses while you're trying to build yourself up and to keep yourself feeling good about yourself. It's almost like they're trying to make you question.


If you are who you really. You are, and if it's genuine and if it is as good as. The it's not you, it's them, them seeing if it's as good as what they're seen and so you're fighting not yourself, you're trying to improve yourself all the time and be true to yourself. But it's this constant external. Negative, it's almost like chipping away at you at the same time. Yeah. I think that. So I think that really is life is full of challenges and it's going to test everything and challenge everything, and I think that's that's what the Harvard Longitudinal Study found.


Everyone's challenged, everyone's tested.


And I mean, when I think of that, it reminds me of, you know, the story of the Buddha, you know, the Siddartha Gortner, how he became the Buddha. And it was just sitting meditating under the tree. And every temptation, every every fear. And it's I think life in a smaller way is those spread out. But just asking, like, how true is this? How strongly do you believe this? And it's just our work is just to develop that really strong sound belief in ourselves and isn't the world won't give it to you is coming is.


I can't remember Fulci, but there's another one that says Hemingway, like the world breaks everyone and some grow back stronger, but it is like to come. This is the hardest job in the world, is to be yourself and to keep fighting for luck. And I don't think there's there's no see, I don't think there's any easy solution. There's no easy path. And that just is the test of the test of life. But it's how do how do you create?


The habits, the systems, the behaviors to keep yourself strong. That's the real question. It's a very good question. The golf player now is going to say, do you ever have like do you have morning routines or something like that to. Already, practices now are to be to go through peaks and troughs. So, yeah, I mean, I do regularly go go through emoting, emotional depth. I would say depressed depression as such, but kind of like.


I don't know, like I'll get fed up with the world of thing and go, you know, the world's a horrible place and stuff like the. And. I thought I looked at the world and think there's no justice and and things like that. And but then I suppose that kind of happens over a weekend more than in a way, because when I'm at work, I'm like, it's a bit of an irony, really. I'm done with teaching other people the best ways.


And, well, what I suppose what I consider to be the best way to kind of live the life and become independent and break free of any mental health issues that you have and all that sort of stuff. And then come the weekend, sometimes I think, well, this is my time and I'm not really enjoying it.


And I don't know, it's weird sometimes, but you get your strength from like when you're helping other people and showing other people. Is that where you're, like, getting your strength from? Because you need to find a solution for them or to help them. Is that what brings you your strength?


No, I don't think it is. I think it helps me to see where you're coming from, but don't think it is. I think it's. I don't know, maybe it's. It's maybe something maybe this week will be classed as theory and then the weekend will be classed as practical potentially, and I think I sometimes have a lot of problem with with the presence. So, for example, this weekend underspends, Hopeland, Liverpool, and I was with with the family is really, really nice.


And but my I had half a mind on going back in half and I shall go back to that leads.


And I don't have any I don't have any friends in Leeds. I don't have any anything to speak of. And it doesn't really bother me to be honest. And what the idea of kind of that I didn't like, it's more the idea of it than the actual reality of it. That's the problem, I suppose. So I think that's where the peaks and peaks and troughs kind kind of common. I mean, I think we all the from optimist to optimistic to pessimistic, I think that's just natural because, I mean, as part of seeing both sides of it, both sides of the coin.


There's also like the energy, you know, like the energy graph of the day. I know I know some elements of it, so it's kind of like in the morning it's there and then it goes up and then it goes down and then it goes and maybe it does that like we have there's certain rhythms like circadian rhythm and nothing. There's a rhythm of a week in this pattern. And. There's all these things that have forced and this like you say, like if you're not sleeping as much in a week and then catching up on the weekend, that can.


Maybe play into it is just figuring out what was driving it. I don't know. I don't know really. It sometimes it's a bit like a I suppose a bit like a big fog will come over, but as I say, it's not impressive in terms of I feel sorry for myself or anything like that and or even like a negative. It's more to do with the world. Look up at the world, and I suppose the COVA thing doesn't help, but I look at the world and think, you know, it's just a horrible place and that's kind of what what goes through my mind.


If it wasn't a horrible place.


How could you be? Well, I think. I'm always going to be me regardless, I'm not going to. I think I think part of it is feeling like and I think it just clicked in my head and I wasn't talking to you. I feel like I'm in a fight and I'm in in a week. Given other people's strength to do battle. And. Then when I mean, on my own, so to speak, save a weekend and I don't see any friends no matter what, I don't go to the pool or whatever, and I just spend it in my own company.


I feel like I'm fighting the fights on my own to try and make the world a better place, which is a impossibility. And I think that's why my energy levels are going down. I think it just clicked.


Mm hmm. See, I kind of look at it as. The imperfection of the world is gives you like a playground, like the injustices, like a slide and in selfishness is like a swing. And all these things are a playground of how we can understand ourselves and understand life more. I don't know if that. Makes any sense to you? You mean like in terms of refreshment, not necessarily even reframing, but all of the things like.


So you know that you help people, you help people with psychological help in their outlook and things like that, so.


In a in a. What you're really doing is. Teaching people about themselves and how to live better emotionally and psychologically and so. If the world was perfect, there would be nothing for you to do in that line. They wouldn't, but I don't see it as me finding a purpose. Failing to give more of a I just don't like the fact that I resent the fact that I suppose, OK.


So for me, I find. But my flow and my what makes me come alive is solving a problem. And understanding where it all came from and all this kind of stuff, and I realized that. If the world was perfect. There would be no problems to solve. And. It isn't so much that is it's not like a purpose of like I'm here to save this person, I'm here today.


This is people don't need saving. People are living. People need. Like it's their own responsibility, what they do, you know, responsible for not saying not in that sense, but for me, like the intellectual stimulation. Comes from working, working out what's wrong, how it affects us and how people can break through that. Does that make sense? So it's not about purpose, but it's about the thing that I enjoy doing comes from the imperfection of the world.


And if life was perfect and we were all we'd all be sitting on the same bed and getting bored. That's the kind of way that I rationalized it.


OK. Problem solving, each problem that is solved, it's a sense of achievement, it's like doing a jigsaw or a crossword puzzle or something and just using those as you are bringing, and especially if you are bringing in elements together.


And you can come out with something that's clearly an improvement on elements that you started, you feel a sense of achievement, and it's not that it is a solution that's necessarily going to change the world or change something. What it does, it's changing you, it's changing it's it's changing you not not the end product that you came out with.


Yeah, Einstein said that someone said, like, you must love physics or something. You said it's nothing to do with physics. I want to understand what's false. And for me, it's understanding.


Life is understanding what are all the dynamics, how does it all work together? And by solving problems and same problems and solving problems. That's how I understand life. And for me, what makes me happy is understanding more about life and um, so yeah, so yeah, I suppose in a sense this reframing for me, it was more an appreciation of that.


I was saying I can do it, I can do this, I can do this. It's something that in itself affirming it's it's and it's not necessarily about anybody else but yourself.


And it goes back to, you know, when you saying about confidence and I said it was knowledge, skills, confidence. Actually, it's none of those things. It's just knowing that people can it's someone knowing I can do it and that they need the knowledge, the skills to have the confidence and to when they have that, then they have to belief. But really, there's no special knowledge. There's nothing it's just I'm just going to be myself and purely share who I am.


And that is the real key. The rest is just a prop to that belief.


And so we come back to belief in self belief that you can do it. Yeah. Which is belief, that belief that you have value and belief that you can make the difference that you need to. And, um, and it's also an acceptance of. If you can't, then maybe you like, there's only so far you can take that, you know, there is positive thinking and then you come into a situation like outwits. And Victor Frankl showed that.


You know, there's a point, there's a wall where you can't improve circumstances, but then it's about acceptance and finding meaning within the. See, I think it's all about meaning the meaning that you make of it, and there is no inherent meaning, it's just whatever meaning you make up what speaks to you. I was watching something on the PlayStation, would you mention about outfits yesterday on YouTube, and it was about about the presence and as each sometimes struggled to be in person, I am working on it and basically I can't remember who it was.


But they said the conclusion of of the speech was in the presence. There's no suffering because deep depression is the past and anxiety is the future. And within the president's need to do those things are essentially real.


And so that's OK. And I'm in a one on one side. I do get that. But then also, what about people who are genuinely sitting there and in physical pain, for example, or or in the grief of loss, you know, of losing someone or something like that? Their presence will be painful. So just wanted to kind of ask what were the people's thoughts were on the. And I think most my experience is that most pain, physical pain.


Is mostly psychological. So, for example. Because the more that you fear pain, and we're told by you know, there is so much people take pills for headaches and things like that.


And so we've become anesthetized that we fear pain. So I learned this really is the Russian martial art, and they worked a lot on fear.


They said basically it's not about techniques, that it's about a state of being and it's about not it's and it's about being able to stay relaxed because most people, they'll learn martial arts in a safe dojo and it's under control situations.


And people come at them in a certain way and they know how to react.


But when it then goes out into the street and it's someone who comes in a completely different way and someone and they're panicked and they're afraid, all the micro muscles on a micro muscular movements that they would do, they're not able to do them because of the fear and because of the adrenaline rush through their body means that they're not able to to be as relaxed. And so it's less effective. So the Russians took OK, let's deal with their concerns about the core of it is about being relaxed, about breathing.


And one of the things we had to do was, was learn how to recover from, like, be wounded, be punched, wounded, and that system. Yeah, that's it. And knowing and it's like you like you punch out the wind and it's even like the lion so that you build up the tension so that you develop the ability to take it and to recover. And it's really that the knowing that unless you break it down or something like that.


If you're going to hit a muscle or that it's going to recover and the level at which you recover is how relaxed you are. And so it was and what I realized was my experience of being winded was, you know, another time we were fine and it wasn't that drill. And I was winded and I just remember shrinking, which is like the thing that you're not supposed to do because you're supposed to keep breathing. And I remember, like all the folks coming in my head out like I was he was inspired to do that.


It wasn't that kind of drill. Sure. Everyone's going to be looking. I'm going to look a wimp and they're going to be moving on and all these folks. And I realized when I let go of them. The pain loss was almost nothing compared to it, and I found this also from taking cold showers, that when you let you go in and there's so much chatter in your head, oh, it's going to hurt. It's going to hurt.


And when you just when you reach that point of just acceptance, I'm just going to take whatever comes. The fear is less and the pain is much less. Yeah, that makes sense, yeah, because Manguel always somebody on it and said basically the whole thing is I don't know how much you've had to do systemin, but basically it's about how relaxed you are. And that is just by taking the fear out of and they were really good at teaching you to deal with fear.


Yeah, I would definitely agree with you on that.


Make no mistake, people are Anestis not trying to get any to even say the word if you want to pay for pain.


I mean, it is funny because last week I got some potatoes and I give my finger the end of a finger at a really good slice with the knife. And I remember saying to myself, it's not a problem. And ignore the. And there's blood everywhere, and it didn't hurt. I wish it was more a case of being aware of it then isn't. And and I am aware of how your mind can. Heal the body or or or prevents healing from taking the place to taking place.


And I don't mean just physical pain, illness and stuff like that.


And a couple a couple of months ago, I woke up with a really, really bad hangover. And I think to do that day and I told myself over and over in my head, I was completely fine. It took me about an hour and a half and I was right as rain. And I was on the verge of like. Being thrown open, really, really ltg the rest of it, but it was my attitude and my attitude that that changed the outcome.


In such a short period of time. Yeah, I yeah, I think it's it's just it is learning, it's learning to listen to your body, learning to listen to the pain and nowhere needs. So pain is really just a warning. It's just a sign of emotional pain or physical pain. And if you give it what it needs, well, I mean, like most times it passes. There are there are there is like chronic pain. But if there's nothing that can be done and it can't.


Like, you can't make it better than it's about accepting it. Because the pain is going to be there any way you can fight against it or you can accept it, and it's less painful to accept it. So going back to the original thing of what I was saying about the pain, no pain, no suffering in the presence. Do you think that that's true or can be true? That sounds like Eckhart Tolle. Now he's kind of thing, it's a.


Well, in the strictest sense, if you will totally present, then you go into that pain and. Live in, if you like, what is it? So there is. So that's the that's how you deal with the pain. So there is pain and then if you. If you take so what you're doing, then, OK, I'm feeling pain here. Where is the pain? What is the cause of the pain? What is not?


What is the cause of it? What am I feeling? What is it telling me? And that's.


So would you still feel pain here? Yeah, I think you change your experience of it, but. So we can kind of profile because we've got like a young nephew of eight and we do like a little play fight, he had like a short plastic shoulder, the plastic axe, and I'd give him a really good, obviously unintentional whack on the head with the axe. And rather than go, oh, OK, sorry about that, blah, blah, blah, I just started laughing and went, you know, give him a distraction, like I'm winning the fight sort of thing.


And he just laughed and carried on. And it kind of shocked me in a way, because it wasn't the thing I expected, but it was the thing that I wanted to happen. And he did drop his head. And later on I said, did that hurt? And he was like, yeah, it really is. And I I'm sorry about that. But he didn't cry and he didn't draw attention to it. And erm I had the thought in my interviews just walking along the streets and some kid did the same to him.


You would have started crying. So I guess. It is your mindset towards something that makes the difference, isn't it? Yeah, it's not objectively what happens, but it's objectively how we experience what happens.


Yeah, definitely. No, thanks, Rob. All right. Thank you. Do you feel emotionally drained at the end of the week after you've provided all of this advice and help to people through the week? Yeah, sometimes I'm not. Not every week, but just. Sometimes and. And it kind of it's emotionally drained, I suppose, even though I never put any emotion into the outcome. So it's more a case of. Here's the pass.


Walk if you choose, if you do, you do, if you don't, you don't. So I've got that emotional distance and what sometimes I suppose in my head I get a bit tired of trying to work things out. Yeah, I I think that's what I was trying to get out. The process of actually going through whatever it is that is that you're not invested in in the result, but the process of actually going through it and working through it with whoever it is that you're dealing with, that is in itself, it builds up and ties your child at the end.


So it's almost as though you have even though you are not vested in it, you're still expending as much emotional energy in the process. Yeah, yeah. It's you. It can also be who you're working with. I found this some people that. It's just frustrating to work with. Because I'm guessing you don't get to choose who you work with, and for me, this some people I know that I just couldn't work with who would join me.


No, we don't we don't get to choose. It could just be like literally anyone over 18, basically. And. You know, I've worked with literally all walks of life. Make no mistake. And I don't I don't ever, ever judge anybody because I think everybody deserves a chance. And he somebody was yesterday doesn't necessarily indicate who they are today. So it will be completely wrong of me to judge somebody based upon whatever it is that they've done.


And I'll always treat people as a human being first and foremost. And I'll tell them as much, you know, if they do have a particular record of certain things, she will say. But, you know, I've had. Horrific stories, nothing can. Nothing can that bothers me anymore because of the stories that I've heard and. But yeah, it's like like, for example, it was strange, like last week, one of my patients, the he couldn't attend because he'd.


It fallen over each of us from Tennessee and it's fallen over, and he said that it has his left leg, so I shouldn't have because you've got to work for and obviously I sent him a message they said shows you heard about the. As you know, I always like to look at the positive side of life and, you know, let's be thankful that you haven't hit your right leg as well. And I'm not sure it's OK if the right way and you kind of reply back, kind of like, thanks, but no thanks.


And then said, is is he's going to get he's got a support worker and he it doesn't need anything else from me anymore. And I'm like, OK, fine, that, you know, that's what you want to do. And then and then he sent me a message and then he said, can you call me next week? Because I want to give you some feedback. And I'm thinking in my head and thinking, so reply to me said, do you want to give some written feedback because it can give you, you know, the official reason or do you want to speak to me to give some feedback?


And he said, no, I'll speak to you. But it just didn't sound positive. I never had them thinking a really because of my energy levels and thinking I can't be I haven't got the energy feel to give me something negative. I'm like even this morning, obviously, it's a Monday morning. Like, I haven't seen the manager, the main manager for a couple of weeks to work out a different surgery. And anyway, she she come in.


I see the remote in this morning. And I was just sitting there and I was mind mindset this morning. I was waiting for her to give me this list of complaints. The patient support and against me, even though they don't exist and she just come in and she had a bit of a laugh and I was we and stuff like that. And I think that's part of. As I mentioned before, with someone making up and the staff member making up lies in a previous role, I'm kind of always on edge over the.


And so that kind of plays a part as well. You know, I mean, yeah, I think I think there's always a dance between too good, not good enough and, you know, like that kind of.


There's times when we feel more positive, less positive, so we always sort of to the natural human reaction is to make it.


We're more wired for fear, so to make it something bad. So when I talk about who you went with, it wasn't necessarily about judging them. But for for me, what I find is really frustrating. Like I find it in a like chronically depressed people. I just and it's not necessarily a judgment on them. It's just the fact of I can't cope with that much negativity. You know, like when you say, well, maybe this won't work because it is maybe this new I know that work because of this and then and it's like they fight in you all the way to hold on to to their wounds or that whatever it is.


And that's what I find draining because it's an identity for them, isn't it?


That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And I just I like, you know, well this is it. You know. What more do you want. You go. But it's so hard for me because you don't understand. You know, you can't you can't solve an unsolvable problem.


And I think that it's important then to have a system that replenishes you after being drained by such difficult emotional.


Issues and I think it's important for you than Ireland to find a way to recharge yourself emotionally and get yourself back to even keel every week, and then if that's that's your you know, that's your sector of the week and then the weekend is your recovery period. And then you go back in and you repeat the cycle again and, you know, maybe the intensity changes each week and each day. But nonetheless, each week on the weekend, you are actually preparing yourself for another onslaught coming the following week.


Yeah, it's how you and it's how you manage that that process, I think in the weekends that's important. Yeah, there's this like I know if I don't like work in the morning and do those kind of things, I know like.


I'm not going to have as good a day, I'm not going to I know I need that sort of structure, that retainer that at least physically I feel well.


And then. Like, I will sue or embroiderer, because when I do that, nothing else is in my head, I'm totally focused on what I'm doing and there is nothing else apart from we do our Caesarism or what whatever it is that I'm creating.


And that is like it's just bliss. It's you think about nothing. You think about just what's there in front of you. The world is passing you by. And so maybe that's the equivalent of your exercise. But I think we I think we all need that way. We can block out all of those those competing stimuli. You know, if you have too much stimulation all the time, then you become very drained. And there are times when you need to to to block block them out.


I find that I need to do that this weekend. I actually did that and I had work to do and I was being called and I actually did not respond to my colleague all of yesterday. And instead I watched Nadal beat Djokovic to my my great pleasure and had lots of pleasure. But what I'm saying to you is that I use that as my emotional release, and that's what I focused on.


The work started this morning. I gave myself that space. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.


Yeah. I think you have to be able to switch the world off sometimes. Yeah. Definitely. Well, thank you very much for your input, everybody. It's been a good it's a good being, a good session. Yeah. Thank you, Alan and Sandra, I'm sorry. The next week. Yes. We've got next week is the enchantment dieting strategy. I don't know if there's another one I was going to do. You came up again and Kim came up again.


I thought we were maybe doing this for a couple of weeks. So people have time. If they want to look at the book or listen to that, it's about. He wrote the book, Wired for Dating, Wired for Love. It's really about how he says, in people in relationships to nervous systems interacting, and it's understanding like the attachment theory and biochemically what happens and understanding fears and anxieties and how they interact in relationships. So, yeah, it would be interesting to look at some some of the big books and and the Topsfield on that.


So and then I got a couple of other things, like the Hero's Journey as applied to relationships and working on that today, if if I think that's kind of mature enough on lot. So, yeah, we got next couple of weeks. Excellent. Thanks again. OK, we'll have a good week. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. And I'll see you next week. Bye bye.