Jim Downing, USN Retired, Author “The Other Side of Infamy: My Journey Through Pearl Harbor and the World War”

With greatest respect to Jim and his shipmates lost at Pearl Harbor, I included the entire transcript of the interview.

Host:  Today, we’re honored to have Jim Downing, author of “The Other Side of Infamy: My Journey Through Pearl Harbor and the World War.” Jim’s ship was the Navy battleship the USS West Virginia, where Jim was a Gunner’s Mate First Class and ship’s Postmaster.

Jim retired from the Navy with 24 years of service, at rank of Lieutenant, and has remained a utility player during his 27 years, full-time staff with the Navigators, serving in positions ranging from Deputy President to Chair of the Board of Directors. Jim was married for 68 years to Morena, who passed away in 2010, and is parents of 7 children. Jim is still known as Navigator #6. Jim, welcome to Business Leaders podcast. We’re honored.

Jim: No, sir. I’m honored to be here.

Host: This is awesome. We’re in Jim’s living room, and we’re chatting away at the kitchen table, where, I think, everything that’s important has ever happened in life, is at the kitchen table. And so I thought I’d go through and, you know, Jim, to kind of start out, take us back to your growing up, and a bit about yourself in Plevna, Missouri.

Jim: I was born at the beginning of World War I. My father worked in defense plants. Money was pretty scarce, so he had an uncle that lived right outside of Kansas City, so he got a job there so I could be delivered by my uncle. And then, my great-grandparents bought a large parcel of land in Missouri, directly out of Louisiana Purchase.

So we still have a section of that in the family today. So, there’s a small town by the name of Plevna. It was settled by Bulgarian immigrants. And apparently, they have a town by that name, so they named it after their hometown in Bulgaria.

Host: I bet you Plevna, Missouri looks just like Plevna, Bulgaria. What do you bet?

Jim: Well, something one of my friends checked it out on the Google, and the population is now 40. It was 100 when I lived there, so it’s cut in half now.

Host: You know, it’s interesting to grow up in rural America. And I think about the times that you grew up, and I read your book recently, and you were talking about some of the early influences, the Zane Grey and Horatio Alger books that you read. You know, as a young man, did you find that those books shaped part of your thinking?

Jim: Yes, it did. Books were scarce, and I liked the Zane Grey books and the Horatio Alger books. In fact, that’s all we had. So I read them over and over and over again. And as I mentioned in my book, the Horatio Alger books shaped, you know, that if you do the right thing, you’ll be a success. So, I felt they were pretty much all the same, just changed the name of the characters in them. But the theme was that somebody went into town, found a sponsor, did the right things, and ended up a success. So I kind of adopted that philosophy. I could be a success.

Host: You know, it’s an interesting thought process when you’re in a smaller community looking for a role model. And, for you, on access to the books, where did the books come from? Was there a local library?

Jim: We had a small library, but these were family books. So I apparently had ancestors who were interested in Zane Grey.

Host: Interestingly enough, my family had an interest in Zane Grey, so I made it through the entire series of Zane Grey books myself, more than once. So we share that in common, for sure. You know, in your book, rolling forward a little bit further down the road, you mention the influence of radio in your life and listening to the World Series on radio, and listening to, I think it was Dempsey’s fight on the radio.

I think, for many listeners, that’s not in their vocabulary. Can you paint a bit of a mental picture of what that was like when you were listening to your heroes in the World Series on the radio?

Jim: Yes. Radio, public radio, ownership at home developed in the early 1920s. And my father was quite an entrepreneur, saw a opportunity. So he got the franchise for radio, home radio for a whole district. I used to go help with and put up antenna, used a big antenna from the barn to the house, and took a pickup to carry the batteries, three circuits in them. So, I saw radio being installed.

The original radios did not have loud speakers, so they had places to plug in several headsets. And the headsets could be taken apart, so six people with three headsets, everybody had their own headset in that. Now, radio has changed a lot, but they had a program for the day, “Pay No Attention to Clock,” and we never knew the time from them. When one of them was finished, they had another.

Well, so I mentioned that one of the things that really helped, that farmers had no market news, you know, to know where to market their products. So, the market reports were important. And then, weather reports were important. And then, one of the favorites was Old Fiddler’s Contest. They had a contest with fiddle players on there. And, as I said, no time schedule on. Start in the morning, finish in the afternoon, or finish at night.

But it helped the farmers in their marketing. And then, the main entertainment was Amos and Andy, these two men that played six characters in there. So, everybody made sure their chores were done in time to listen to Amos and Andy. Then, of course, radio got more sophisticated. And there were no network news then. Later, network news came in. So, it ushered in an entire new era in our lives and training.

Host: You know, during that period, around the ’29 crash, did you guys get much on the radio from what was going on economically in the country?

Jim: Yes. We’d begin to get Wall Street reports. You know, the things were edited as it went on. So we had pretty good coverage on the stock market and what was going economically.

Host: Interesting. Did you guys happen to hear the Grand Ole Opry?

Jim: Yes. It came on. It was very well-received on radio. Probably the main musical program that was on.

Host: I’ve spent a little time around the Grand Ole Opry myself through the years. You know, for you, you were and still are a baseball fan. And I don’t think, for my generation, and for many generations following, they have quite the impression of what effect radio had and the color that they painted by sound.

Jim: Yes, well, I was in baseball and the Cardinals, being a Missourian. And I watched the famous Cardinals and they seemed, in the ’20s, the World Series seemed to be mostly between the Cardinals and the Yankees. So, we were always glad when the Cardinals won, which was not too many times during that time in there. But, I remember Stan Musial said he got more for one game than he got for a whole season when he started out.

So, baseball didn’t pay a lot to their players in those days. But, on the radio, of course, you couldn’t follow the game visually so it took an announcer that was very skilled and fast with his tongue to describe the plays, the home runs, and that. I remember, they said, “Going, going, going,” and then if it went over the fence, “it’s out.” But that was a pretty famous phrase in those days, “Going, going, going,” as the announcer followed the ball and it went out.

Host: You know, I think about, I’ve heard Amos and Andy on some of the…you can find them nowadays, I think, in podcasts and some of the other channels, the old replays. And the skill of those guys, talking about it, painting that mental picture, you don’t have the video to tell you the picture. You have your imagination. You know, and for you guys, growing up, did the Depression have much of an effect on your early life and your family?

Jim: It didn’t on our community, because there was no cash, no jobs. unemployment rate, I believe, is over 20% during that time. Now, my father owned a general store, which included groceries, and so people found enough money to buy flour and stuff like that, that they couldn’t raise on their farms. But there was never any extra money. And there was a lot of bartering went on.

I remember, we had a country doctor in our town, and people would come in, bring him canned fruit, vegetables, something to pay if you didn’t have enough cash to pay him with. But, it had a good effect on the community. We looked out for each other in that time. And we didn’t know times of prosperity, so we didn’t have anything to compare it to. So, it created a real community spirit.

Host: You know, it’s interesting, I think, in those days, the machinery didn’t really support really large farms. And so, my father grew up on a 40-acre farm in rural Tennessee, and they grew hogs, and they basically raised everything they ate. You know, so, I suspect that was similar to your neighborhood as well.

Jim: Yes, there were no tractors in those days. All the implements were horse-drawn in there. But, most everybody had a garden plot and could raise enough to can and keep through the winter.

Host: Yeah, my great-aunt still canned. So, before I go too far, for the folks who are listening, if you’re looking to reach out to Jim, you can find him on Facebook, James Downing. And you’ll know that you’re on the right place is when you see the cover of his book there, which is “The Other Side of Infamy,” to repeat, so people can take and figure that out. And, speaking of that, how’s your book tour going?

Jim: We’re very happy with it. I try to divide it up, that at least half is ministry and half is book selling. And we find that the most receptive market we have now is in churches, where I speak, and then have a book signing after. So, we have a good return on that. Now, the folks that help me here, know how to advertise on television and other media. So that’s a big help.

So the greatest outlet for the book is Amazon. I’m the next largest customers as I distribute it wherever I go. So we’re very happy. I don’t know how to compare it with others, but we have sold 15,000 to date, so I’m happy for that distribution.

Host: So you’re a best-selling author.

Jim: Well, I’ve been to one percent.

Host: That’s a best-selling author. Well, I read the book. It’s a great message and it’s a great story. I like how the book took you through part of your journey and, in particular, you know, coming back to your career in the Navy. You know, there’s that decision moment, and if you can, for the folks that are listening, take us to that conversation, in your mind, where you made the decision that said, “I’m gonna go join the Navy and leave home.” What was that like?

Jim: Yes, well, there was no future in our area for a high school graduate. And I wanted to be a teacher. And so that was the direction I was heading in my career, but I had a friend who went into the Navy two years before I did, and he was on a submarine, got extra pay. His take home pay was $90 a month. And every summer, he’d ride home on a new Harley. So, as I said, his pay was $90 a month. My father was a bank president. His salary was $90 a month.

So, I could see Curtis as a capitalist. So I thought there’s one place I can get out, away from home, be on my own, save some money to go to college. In those days, there was no GI loans or any program like that. So, if you had the money, you could go to college. If you didn’t, you couldn’t. So, I joined primarily to save money so I could go to college and then law school, and enter politics. That was the career path I had planned out.

Host: You know, I think about that career path, and some of the folks that are paying for the college costs for their children. What was, in your memory, the cost of college in those days?

Jim: Well, I remember, even when my oldest daughter went to college, the tuition was $15 per quarter.

Host: It’s gone up a little since then. That’s impressive. Now, what would have been the closest college to you?

Jim: We were in northwestern Missouri, and the state had five universities for training teachers. One of them was at Kirksville. It’s now known as Truman University at Kirksville, Missouri, just 40 miles from where I lived.

Host: Close enough, but that’s a long hike in those days, too.

Jim: Yeah.

Host: Yeah. So, you know, as you’d look through, and shifting gears from that decision where you decided to go in the Navy, what were some of the most vivid memories of your shipmates and experiences onboard ship prior to Pearl Harbor?

Jim: Yes, well, when I went aboard ship, the battleship West Virginia, full crew is 1,500. And that amount is about six square feet per person. So the first thing I had to get used to is having my elbow touch somebody else no matter where I went or what I did. So, the lack of privacy was quite an issue with me in that. And, a battleship is kinda complicated.

I know that, as a recruit, we had an inspection one day, and the captain asked me, “How do you find the food on the ship?” Well, I mistakenly said, “Well, you go down this deck, and then down that one,” and I described the letters and compartments you went through.

Host: Good for him to know where to eat, just in case.

Jim: Yeah.

Host: You know, and in those days, there was a, as I understand it, there was a fairly customary segregation between the officers and the enlisted. Is that true?

Jim: Yes, it was pretty well enforced. We had, on the ship, what they called officer’s country. And enlisted weren’t supposed to go back there. But, pretty early in my career, I became the assistant Postmaster, later the Postmaster, and the officers had special things for me to do, come and see them, so there was no barrier between me and the officer’s country.

Host: As the Postmaster, in reading your book, you also had a safe in there. Were you also payroll? Did you do payroll?

Jim: Pardon me.

Host: Did you pay the sailors as well as Postmaster?

Jim: No, but they always sent money home. It was by money order in those days. So, 40% of the crew or more sent part of their pay to their wife or somebody else, every payday, twice a month. So, I’d write those money orders one by one. That was a big part of my job was not the mail, but the money orders.

Host: Yeah, and you know, my father was 20 years Navy and I’d ask him, I says, “When you’re at sea, how did you get mail? How did you take and deposit any money?” So you’ve answered the part about the deposit. How did mail come on board ship when you were at sea?

Jim: We had three scouting planes on the ship, and if we were in range of land, why, we would make a trip in. We went out on maneuvers but then picked up the mail. So, for about three or four years, I rode that scouting plane. Now, it was what they called a SOC-3 a biplane, and was shot off the catapult. So, on the catapult, you gained speed from 0 to 60 miles an hour in 60 feet.

So, the first time we went off that catapult, I was really, you know, scared of what happened. All the liquid goes to the root of your body. You feel like a pancake. And you try to reach out, but the G force is still there and you can’t move, you know, for a little bit. But after a few of them, a minute or two, everything is normal. I did that for, I’d say, about three years. Now, if we were in Hawai’i, we flew into the air station.

They had a tractor, farm tractor, with a rope on it, so they’d pull a float down under the plane, put it on the plane, and that tractor would pull it up, right on the runway in the air station. So every place we went, we did that. So, we got the mail as often as we could if we were in range of land.

Host: You know, I think about the mechanics of everyday life. So we talk about the excitement of taking off. Well, I think about as you come back under normal sea conditions to land to get picked up, that had to be fairly exciting as well.

Jim: Yes, because you had no choice.

Host: You’re committed.

Jim: You’re out of fuel and the only help we had was the ship would make a 90-degree turn. And the wake behind would smooth the ocean for a little bit, so we’d come and land in the wake of the ship turning. Now, I rode with the junior pilot and the first two planes landed, then the sea was pretty rough again when we came in. But once you’ve committed yourself to landing, you go ahead. And when the plane came down hard, it was like a sack full of tin cans.

And I remember one time, I was in the passenger seat, and my job was to raise the flaps, you know, after it landed like a sprocket on a bicycle. So, the minute he hit the water, he said, “Raise the flaps,” so we could tight seal it up to the ship. So one day, I was a little slow, because he hit so hard it knocked the breath out of me. And he kind of said, “Come on, get the flaps up.” I said, “Well, I will as soon as I get my breath back on this.” So, the taxi up alongside the ship, and at last, lift it up on a crane.

Host: Exciting times. To get the mail, you were a very committed Postmaster, for sure.

Jim: Yes, well, there’s a number one, somebody said that mail is more important than food for morale on a ship. So getting the mail had a high priority.

Host: I still have the letters my father mailed to my mother when he was at sea. So, yes. They were important. They were saved. That’s pretty impressive. So, we talked about those experiences a little bit, and specifically about the mail, but going back to Pearl Harbor, on December 7th, you were on shore leave after a 13-day patrol.

Jim: Right.

Host: And newly married to Morena. And you were staying with friends in the Kalihi Valley in Honolulu. And I looked on Google Earth this morning. That seemed to be about five miles up the hill from Ford Island. And you were having breakfast, and it says, “with the fresh smell of bacon,” and I presume eggs. Didn’t read that part. And for the folks, you know, you had an announcement over the radio of the attack.

And from what I read, you could see the black smoke. But if you can, take the folks that are listening, to that point where you got the first glimpse of what was going on in the harbor and what went through your mind at that moment.

Jim: The minute we heard the explosions, we turned on the radio. And the announcer said, “We’ve been advised by Army and Navy intelligence that the island of Oahu is under attack.” And he said, “The enemy has not been identified. Stay tuned.” So, two or three minutes later, he came on and said, “The enemy has...