In 2019 Google conducted an internal study to find out what makes an effective team. 

The study showed that the #1 factor for effective teams was the presence of psychological safety. Listen in as I talk with speaker and author Mark Graban about the 4 stages of psychological safety as well as the power of making mistakes. 

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Julie Brown:

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Mark Graban

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In 2019, Google

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audioJulieBrown21251411678:

conducted an internal study to find

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out what makes an effective team.

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They called the study Project Aristotle,

after the renowned ancient Greek

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philosopher who greatly influenced the

world of philosophy, science, and logic.

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The study uncovered the five

elements that make a great team.

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Welcome to episode 167 of the

Shitworks, a podcast dedicated to

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all things networking, relationship

building, and business development.

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I'm your host, Julie Brown.

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Speaker, author, and networking coach,

and today, I am joined by author, speaker,

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and consultant, Mark Graben, whose

latest book, The Mistakes That Make Us,

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Cultivating a Culture of Learning and

Innovation, delves deep into the most

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important element uncovered in that study.

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So, what is that number one element?

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Well, why don't I give you all five

of them, and then you can see how

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important number one really is,

and you may be surprised by it.

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Coming in at number five was impact.

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Number four is meaning, number three

is structure and clarity, number

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two is dependability, and the number

one element is psychological safety.

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Meaning, team members feel safe

enough to take interpersonal risks.

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When teams promote psychological

safety, there is a free flow of ideas

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which can lead to better outcomes.

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You can ask for help without

fear of retribution or adverse

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impact to your reputation.

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Team members feel comfortable asking

questions and sharing opinions,

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which can lead to healthy debate,

and that helps teams thrive.

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When we are psychologically safe, we

aren't afraid to ask questions or make

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mistakes because we know those two things

are what drive change and innovation.

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And there's no better person to

walk us through how we can create

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psychological safety within our

teams and in our offices than Mark.

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So Mark, welcome to the podcast.

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audioMarkGraban11251411678: Julie, thanks.

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Thanks for having me.

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audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yeah.

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This subject of psychological safety

might be new to a lot of people who

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aren't, you know, studying teams and

companies the way we do, so how do you

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start researching it and writing about it?

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audioMarkGraban11251411678: Well, um, I

mean, I first started learning about it.

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I mean, I went and well, maybe first first

I've lived through workplaces that had low

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levels of psychological safety or where

at least I did not feel psychologically

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safe to use my voice and to speak up.

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And I've been part of teams

where thankfully I did have that

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feeling of psychological safety.

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Um, so I think some of my learning

journey Really started with, um, you

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know, the work of people that, that

I cite in, in my book and otherwise,

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um, Amy Edmondson professor from

Harvard business school, um, didn't

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invent the term psychological safety,

but arguably she really popularized

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it in a broader business sense.

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Um, one of her books is, uh, is

called the fearless organization,

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which I highly recommend.

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And then, uh, another

researcher and author.

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Timothy Clark, author of a

great book called The Four

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Stages of Psychological Safety.

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I had a chance to do some formal

training and certification

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through Tim and his organization.

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So, you know, in the context of my

book, like you said, in your summary

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of this, one of the things people,

one of the things, areas we hoped

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people would feel safe to speak up

about is mistakes, admitting their

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own mistakes, talking about the risk.

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of mistakes not yet made.

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And if they don't feel safe individually

in a particular situation to speak up,

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we're going to have more mistakes and

that's going to be bad for the people

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involved and the organization or company.

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audioJulieBrown21251411678: So

you just made a good point there.

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We would hope, knowing that

We learn from our mistakes and

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that we need to raise red flags.

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, when we see that something might be

a miss, we would hope that that's the

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culture we have in our companies, but we

also have grown up in a very much a, you

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know, fake it till you make it don't admit

you're wrong, you know, kind of culture,

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and that's at odds with creating safe.

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Spaces within our companies.

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So how, in your opinion, in your

professional opinion, in your expert

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opinion, where do companies start

to begin creating this psychological

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safety, this space within companies

that says, no, in this company, we,

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we make mistakes and we ask questions

and it will not affect you and no one

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will think you're dumb, you know, how

do we begin creating that environment?

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audioMarkGraban11251411678: Leaders

thankfully can take actions to create

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or cultivate or build or nurture

the environment in which people can

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decide, yes, it's safe or safe enough.

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For me to speak up.

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So I kind of I'll check myself.

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I'm using the word hope

like in an organization.

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Hope is not a culture building

strategy as an outside observer

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of people in their workplace.

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I would say, I hope you Are fortunate

enough to work in a team and with

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the leader and with colleagues where

you do feel safe So in a team in an

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organization leaders can absolutely

Take action to create the conditions

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for psychological safety So first off

we talk about shit that doesn't work

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the shit the shit that does is This is

a safe space I want you to feel safe.

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I'm like, okay.

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Well that might be aspirational.

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It absolutely Might not be true Right.

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So don't lecture people around like,

well, you should feel safe or, you know,

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to couch it in terms of, you know, being

courageous or, or, or high character

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of like, well, good people speak up

and you should speak up the two things

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leaders can do the shit that works is

first off, and I'll cite Tim Clark for

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for stating it this way, modeling the

behaviors you want to see when leaders

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are willing to go first and admit it.

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I was wrong.

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I made a mistake.

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I could, I have an idea

and I could be wrong.

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So let's go test that idea.

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That works.

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Then secondly, when others follow

your lead, you have to reward those

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behaviors, not just tolerate, but

more actively and more positively

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reward people for speaking up.

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audioJulieBrown21251411678: I love

that you said that the shit that

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doesn't work is saying this is a safe

space because that's a platitude.

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You know, like that is like saying this

is a safe make space doesn't make it so,

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audioMarkGraban11251411678: Right.

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Absolutely.

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And I mean, and you can go and

survey teams qualitatively and

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quantitatively, and you may have a team.

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of let's say seven people

where they all feel a high

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degree of psychological safety.

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So you might say, okay, well,

that team has this generally high

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sense of psychological safety.

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You add an eighth person to that team.

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And I've seen this happen in

a tech company, a software

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company, I'm involved in Kinexus.

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You hire somebody in who has

experience at other companies.

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where it was not psychologically

safe, and they learned all of these

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unfortunate lessons around protecting

themselves and not speaking up.

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You, you can't tell them to flip a light

switch and say, well, this is safe.

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You should instantly start

behaving differently.

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Now that eighth person, that new

person to the team may come around

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to seeing in that environment

based on how people are behaving.

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Okay.

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I I'm going to try, I'm going to start

speaking up and when that's rewarded,

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they can come around, but it's not,

it's not like flipping a switch.

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audioJulieBrown21251411678:

When you say reward the action,

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what does that look like?

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Mm-hmm.

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audioMarkGraban11251411678:

I can start off first off by,

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giving a sincere, thank you.

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You know, thank you for bringing that

to our attention and then taking steps.

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That are constructive, you know,

I mean, and, and look, you know,

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when people make a mistake.

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They feel bad about it.

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You know, you don't have to pile on

or, chastise them or, um, yell at them.

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Um, you know, sometimes it's

actually quite the opposite.

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You've got to check and say, let's say

if you had admitted a mistake, you know,

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the check in Julie, how are you doing?

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Are you feeling okay?

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Like it might not be.

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The appropriate time to dig in to,

uh, analysis and understand it.

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Like, yeah, sometimes you have

to let somebody recover a little

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bit and, and, and reassure them.

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I know you didn't mean to do that, you

know, and then when the timing is right,

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hopefully sooner than later, but, but

when the people involved feel ready

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for it, then it's a problem solving,

well, why did that mistake occur?

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What do we learn from it?

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What can we put in place?

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systemically to prevent

a repeat of the mistake.

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And, you know, a pro tip here.

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Um, what doesn't work is telling people,

well, hey, be more careful next time.

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Like you can try that, but

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audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yeah.

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audioMarkGraban11251411678:

it doesn't work.

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So, so I think, you know, a little bit

of kindness, a little bit of empathy,

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a lot of constructive followup on the

mistake where we can replace punishment.

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With learning and growth.

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And I, I hear people sometimes

say things like, well, we have to

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punish people for making mistakes.

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I'm like, we don't have to, that's a

choice we can choose a different path

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and companies that are choosing that

different path, find more innovation,

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more improvement, more success.

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audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yeah.

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I think I read an article that

you had written and in it you.

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And I'm going to paraphrase here

because, you know, I'm trying to put a

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whole article into this one question.

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You said a lot of leaders are

frustrated with employees not being

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engaged or not submitting ideas and

that this is because most companies

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have two key cultural factors that

keep employees from speaking up.

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And those two key cultural

factors are fear and futility.

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What do you mean by that?

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audioMarkGraban11251411678: Yeah, I

mean, well, you know, for one, I would

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say, , stop blaming employees for quote,

unquote, being disengaged, like, you

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know, engage as an active verb,, you

need to engage your employees actively

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for them to be engaged for them.

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To even have a chance of speaking

up and using their voice.

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Um, I'll credit, like, you know,

I'm not the PhD researcher,

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but I like connecting dots.

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So I'm going to credit another professor,

Ethan Burris from the University of Texas

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at Austin in the business school there.

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This is his research where he

surveyed people very broadly around

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what are the top two reasons people

choose to not use their voice.

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The second highest rank if

we're playing Family Feud here.

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Number two on the board is fear.

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audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yeah,

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audioMarkGraban11251411678:

Let me see fear.

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Well, I don't want to see

fear, but okay, it's up there.

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Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing.

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Number two on the board, fear.

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Surprising to me, and I, I'd always,

I've always been aware of the fear

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factor and trying to help reduce

that or not wanting to work in an

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environment with the fear factor.

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Number one on the board is

actually a different F word.

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So it's if we've eliminated the

fear factor, we can do things

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to build psychological safety.

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That's like the first PS.

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But then if people speak up about mistakes

or problems or ideas and nothing happens.

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People will then say things like, yeah,

I, I don't get in trouble for speaking up.

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It's just not worth the effort.

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I speak up and nothing happens.

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So they stop that's the futility factor.

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And that's where I, the thing I've,

I've pieced together, you know, these

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two PSs, not just psychological safety,

but also effective problem solving.

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And I've seen a lot of organizations

that will train people to the ends

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of the earth on problem solving.

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And then ask, well, why aren't

people using those problem

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solving tools that we taught them?

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It's probably a lack of

psychological safety.

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audioJulieBrown21251411678: Do you

know, in your research, if, if there's

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a gender difference in psychological

safety, is one gender more apt to not

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ask questions, not feel psychologically

safe,, in a work environment, or is

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it pretty much equal across the board?

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audioMarkGraban11251411678:

I, I don't have data.

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I'd be really curious, like

what a broad range of survey

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data,, would say about that.

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I, I think, I mean, one, one dynamic and

something I've talked with others about,

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and they've brought up as an issue.

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I mean, look, you know, I'm,

I, I, I, in a workplace or even

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here, I come from a place, with

a, you know, a lot of privilege.

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I'm a middle age, straight white guy.

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Like I have no, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm,

I'm, you know, you know, in, in some

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ways maybe, um, because of some of that

privilege, like, well, maybe I don't

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get punished as much, but the one thing

I've, I've like, especially talked to

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some black colleagues about, uh, Is, the

thing they fear that I don't have to think

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about is, you know, if let's say a black

woman's friend of mine and a colleague

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that fear of, well, if I admit a mistake,

that's going to reflect badly on my

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other black colleagues or on other women.

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I mean, I think there's a

really interesting perspective

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to think about there.

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We would want everyone hopefully to

feel the same level of psychological

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safety so that they can just as actively

and equally participate in workplace

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discussions and, you know, but I mean, I

think those are things, you know, if we're

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in a diverse team, we can't assume For a

whole bunch of reasons that that everyone

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feels the same sense of psychological

safety that that I might feel or that

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What do you what do you think?

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audioJulieBrown21251411678: Well,

you know, as I was coming up with the

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question, which just happened right

now, I was thinking, originally, when

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I asked the question, I was like, women

would definitely not want to be seen.

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We've already had to work so, we're

not even equal, in where we are in

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leadership, in board positions, in

pay, so why would we admit mistakes,

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because, like, we're already still

not equal, um, on so many levels.

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But then I flipped it around

and I said,, for men, there's

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this, you always got to be right.

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You got to be the big guy, you know, like

kind of persona in companies as well.

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That would make it really difficult

for them to say, Hey, I fucked

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up, so I don't, I think it's an

interesting question or I'd love

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to see if there was research on it.

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And I think it's so important.

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I just, you know, the

listeners of this podcast.

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No, I just wrote a new keynote keynote

on employee retention and happiness.

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And, you know, as we face, you

know, declining birthrate since

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1970, millennials have the lowest

birthrate of any generation ever.

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As we get to the point where We're

already there where it's really hard to

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hire, but it's only going to get worse.

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It's only going to get harder.

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And we as Americans aren't making enough

people to like fill the workforce.

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We're just not, and we're

going to have to rely on.

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You know, people coming into the

United States,, as immigrants to fill

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out the workforce, and it's going

to be really, really important that

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we create safe environments for them

to come and bring their cultures and

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learn, um, you know, there's going

to be some sort of language barriers,

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English as second languages is going

to be really hard communication wise.

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So I think it's It is so important

that companies start figuring out

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this problem of psychological safety.

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audioMarkGraban11251411678: Yeah, yeah.

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And pointing back to Tim

Clark's four stages framework.

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One thing I really love about that

framework is, you know, we can kind

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of break down and look at stages.

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Psychological safety is not a yes, no.

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You know, zero one.

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Uh, we have psychological safety.

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There are degrees of this feeling.

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How safe does an individual feel?

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But these four stages to

run through real quick.

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Stage one, the foundation is inclusion

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audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yeah.

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audioMarkGraban11251411678: Do you

feel included, accepted, and respected?

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Without that, it's hard to do much else.

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audioJulieBrown21251411678: Right.

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audioMarkGraban11251411678:

Stage two is learner safety.

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Do I feel safe to learn?

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Do I feel safe to ask questions?

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Do I feel safe to say, I don't know?

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The, the inability to say that in

healthcare leads to a lot of mistakes

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because people feel ashamed or get

shamed for asking the question.

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So then they go and do their

best and then a mistake occurs.

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Um, stage three.

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audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yep.

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audioMarkGraban11251411678:

is contributor safety.

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Do you feel safe to contribute

to the best of your ability?

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And then stage four, really

the pinnacle that we're aiming

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for is a challenger safety.

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Like, do I feel safe to challenge

the status quo in different ways?

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So, um, in, in different ways, yes.

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To start with, uh, inclusion, uh,

acceptance and respect and, you know, it,

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it, with these pressures around, hiring

and retention, that it's a, really,

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it's a key to retention when people are

working in this highly engaged environment

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where they feel psychologically safe.

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Those people are going to want to stay

and they're going to be able to thrive.

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audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yeah.

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And they're going to recruit.

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I mean, we know that most

hiring comes from networking.

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So you're making your employees feel

like this is the company to work at

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and they're going to help you recruit

and fill out your workforce for sure.

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audioMarkGraban11251411678: Yes,

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audioJulieBrown21251411678: So your

book, The Mistakes That Make Us,

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it It came out of your podcast.

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You have a podcast called My

Favorite Mistake, which delves

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into game changing mistakes made

by industry leaders, like big name

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people and the mistakes they made.

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What was one of your favorite

mistakes that you heard a guest share?

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audioMarkGraban11251411678: there's,

I mean, there's so many great stories

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and you know, it's, it's, what do

we learn from hearing these stories?

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So, you know, one, you, you might hear

somebody admit a mistake and say, oh,

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okay, that applies to me and my work.

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I know now to not make that mistake.

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Like those opportunities are maybe

fairly rare, but I think what's more

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powerful is just the example that's at.

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company founders, CEOs,

leaders, entertainers, retired

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pro athletes, comedians.

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But to answer your question, I think,

you know, two people come to mind.

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Members of U.

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S.

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House of Representatives.

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Episode 2, Will Hurd, Republican

from Texas, who was in, he had

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already decided at that point he

wasn't running for re election, so

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he had a couple of months to go.

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And then a couple of months back, Adam

Smith, a Democrat from Washington,

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and, you know, they both commented

about I think it is kind of unusual.

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You know, if a politician admits a

mistake, they get, they get hit with

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all kinds of attacks and labels.

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You're a flip flopper.

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And

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audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yeah.

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audioMarkGraban11251411678:

They both told stories, , from,

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their first ever election.

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Um, well heard story, like in

particular, he was running in

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the Republican primary in 2010.

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He got the most votes in the

primary, but he didn't get 50%.

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So it went to a runoff.

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Yeah.

347

And he owned up to and he admitted

that he did not listen to the

348

advice of his political consultants.

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He didn't blame them for not

being convincing or something.

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He continued the same strategy.

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He didn't treat the runoff as

being different and he lost.

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And the fact that he could admit that.

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And then this one line

is burned into my memory.

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I mean, we think about mistakes

and we discover them in hindsight.

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He said, Well, if I had known it was

a mistake, I wouldn't have done it.

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audioJulieBrown21251411678: True.

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I always say, you can't learn from

your mistakes if you don't make any,

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audioMarkGraban11251411678:

that's, that's true too.

359

A lot of entrepreneurs talk about that.

360

If, you know, if you're never

making mistakes, you're probably

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not pushing the boundaries of

entrepreneurship or innovation,

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but you know, at the same time.

363

Um, we don't we don't want

huge catastrophic failures.

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So I think the best stories come from

making a mistake at a small scale, like

365

as an entrepreneur, and then learning

and adjusting and using small mistakes

366

to prevent big failures will hurt.

367

Let's say if he had gotten polling

data before that final runoff election,

368

and maybe he could have discovered

before it actually went to the voters,

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maybe he could have made adjustments.

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Now, Um, to his credit, he ran again four

years later, found himself in that exact

371

same situation, and this time he listened.

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And that time, that time he won.

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So I love stories like that from

the podcast and into the book.

374

There's sort of the, the redemption

story of celebrating the learning

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and the growth and the development

that comes from, making mistakes.

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And, I think, the people on the

podcast remind us, look, you know,

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we all, we all make mistakes,

so let's, let's learn and grow.

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audioJulieBrown21251411678: Did

anybody ever, I'm really curious if

379

anybody ever came on and was like,

this mistake was a shit sandwich,

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and like nothing good came out of it.

381

It was just a mistake.

382

audioMarkGraban11251411678:

Well, yes, that's funny.

383

I mean, um, usually, you know, I

mean, you know, we do a pre call

384

and people have a chance to reflect.

385

, usually people are telling stories

that happened long enough ago.

386

They've had time to kind of

figure out what the lesson

387

or the moral of the story is.

388

Um, I mean, you know, it may

be at a minimum, the positive

389

is like, well, I learned not to

make that exact mistake again.

390

You know, but there are so many people

have come on the show and talked about,

391

their first attempt at a business failed,

went out of business, went bankrupt.

392

They learned from that and succeeded the

second time, either in version two of that

393

same type of business or in a different

business, and that's where I think, you

394

know, um, people, people find a way,

like, I think pretty authentically to say,

395

yeah, there, there, there were positives.

396

It was painful at the moment,

but it became positive.

397

audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yeah.

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So we have this rule.

399

I mean, you're a professional speaker

as well, and I don't know if you've

400

heard this rule, but we have this rule

in professional speaking where you never

401

tell a story you're still going through.

402

Like, you never tell a story until

you are completely on the other

403

side of it, because you just can't.

404

Number one, you'll be

too emotional about it.

405

You won't have all of the lessons learned.

406

It's not a good story if

you're in the middle of it.

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So

408

audioMarkGraban11251411678: Yeah, but

409

audioJulieBrown21251411678:

probably the same with mistakes.

410

audioMarkGraban11251411678: well,

and the other thing I've learned

411

is you don't want to ever surprise

somebody with that question.

412

And, you know, there were a couple of

times early on where, um, you know,

413

let's say the guest was being booked

through a third party, like a PR firm

414

and communication didn't really get

back to the guest for whatever reason.

415

And they didn't know, they thought they

were just going to show up and answer

416

the same that they like to answer.

417

And like, where's the fun in that?

418

So you've got to give people some time to

think about and reflect because deciding

419

what's a favorite, you know, that's very

subjective and people do need some time

420

to, like, it's not something you can come

up with off the top of your head probably.

421

audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yeah.

422

So in my research of you, because

everybody knows I research every guest

423

ad nauseum, I would be remiss if I didn't

mention that you're also a lean expert.

424

You work in healthcare a lot

with, um, as a lean expert, but

425

you have a podcast called it.

426

lean whiskey.

427

audioMarkGraban11251411678: Yeah.

428

audioJulieBrown21251411678: And I don't

know if you know this about me, but I'm

429

a huge bourbon, whiskey, rye fanatic.

430

Um, so completely off topic, I would

love to just ask you what your favorite,

431

whiskey, rye, bourbon, scotch, whatever

it is, what is your favorite one?

432

Um, I have a favorite one as well.

433

I actually have two favorites, but

434

audioMarkGraban11251411678: Well, I see.

435

I don't, I don't know if I would,

if I had done more research on

436

you and your background, Julie,

if I could have found this out.

437

So I'm glad you shared that with me.

438

yeah, so lean whiskey is a podcast.

439

In fact, I'm going to record an

episode, uh, this afternoon with

440

my usual cohost, Jamie flinchbaugh.

441

We both do work around this quote

unquote lean management, , philosophy.

442

And, in the lean whiskey podcast, we

kind of combine Conversation on both.

443

So it's hard to answer your question

though, because like there are

444

some people and, and, and, you

know, Hey, drink what you like.

445

There are some people who say

that's my favorite and that's what

446

I all, that's what I like to drink.

447

And like, I like trying new, whiskeys.

448

I have certain go tos I'll go back

to, but like, depending on the mood,

449

I'll drink bourbon or rye or Scotch.

450

Japanese whiskey is a

category that I really love.

451

Um, there are some Irish whiskeys.

452

That, um, I really like and really enjoy.

453

So, um, boy, how to answer

that question of a favorite.

454

Well, let me, let me, let me, maybe

you, you can ask a tough follow up

455

question if I'm weaseling out of it

here, because, you know, look, it's

456

your show, so it's not off topic.

457

You asked, but there are two

distilleries that, are mentioned and

458

featured in the book, the mistakes

that make us one is a Texas distillery.

459

called Garrison Brothers that

has a great culture of owning up

460

to and learning from mistakes.

461

And that story is told in the book.

462

And I do love, their bourbons.

463

And to some people that sounds like

a mistake, but actually no, you can

464

make bourbon outside of Kentucky.

465

audioJulieBrown21251411678: Mmm.

466

Can you call it bourbon though?

467

audioMarkGraban11251411678:

you can't, that's, that is a,

468

audioJulieBrown21251411678:

It's the mash makeup, right?

469

audioMarkGraban11251411678: Well, there

are a number of criteria, but it's a U.

470

S.

471

federal national designation.

472

So you could follow all of the

same rules and make a corn whiskey

473

in another country, but you might

have to label it grain whiskey.

474

audioJulieBrown21251411678: Yeah.

475

And who wants to drink that?

476

That doesn't sound

477

audioMarkGraban11251411678: drink,

you couldn't call it bourbon.

478

Um, so Garrison Brothers and then,

and they've been around for about 15

479

years, and they've won a lot of awards.

480

And then there's a friend of

mine who's a former Toyota guy.

481

So here's the overlap of this lean.

482

Manufacturing lean management approach.

483

Um, he worked for Toyota a long time.

484

He went, and traveled the

world as a consultant.

485

And he got tired of that.

486

He has a startup bourbon distillery and by

startup, like they've, you know, they're,

487

they've been going, I think seven or eight

years, Glen's Creek distilling, where he's

488

brought that Toyota mindset about learning

from mistakes into his distillery.

489

It's very small scale production,

but, he's starting to win some

490

awards and he's bringing that.

491

Kind of problem solving

mindset from Toyota.

492

And I think very intuitively, you know,

he's got a small team, but I mean, you

493

know, it's, it's definitely, he's the type

of leader that would not, uh, react badly,

494

audioJulieBrown21251411678: Mm hmm.

495

audioMarkGraban11251411678:

punitively to a mistake and

496

he'll admit his own mistakes.

497

So there's that leadership.

498

Behavior and pattern.

499

That's really good.

500

audioJulieBrown21251411678:

This is so great.

501

I'm so glad you came.

502

, Mark's new book.

503

The mistakes that make us cultivating a

culture of learning and innovation can

504

be found on Amazon and Barnes and Noble,

any place else that it can be found.

505

audioMarkGraban11251411678: um,

can be found on Apple books.

506

Uh, it's available, um,

you know, print editions.

507

Yeah.

508

Ebooks, audiobook is available

through Audible, Amazon and Apple.

509

audioJulieBrown21251411678: Oh, perfect.

510

And then for information about you,

about your speaking and your coaching,

511

they can just go to markgraben.

512

com, right?

513

audioMarkGraban11251411678: They can go

there or they can go to mistakesbook.

514

com.

515

If people want to order a signed copy

or if they want to do a bulk order

516

for their team, they can do that.

517

And they can actually, they can

also download a free preview

518

of the book at mistakesbook.

519

com.

520

audioJulieBrown21251411678: And a lot of

people on, who listen to this podcast,

521

because I grew up in the architecture,

engineering, and construction

522

industry, which is a very lean, heavy

industry, check out Lean Whiskey.

523

After the, you know, listen

to this podcast first, and

524

then check out Lean Whiskey.

525

audioMarkGraban11251411678: Keep listening

to Julie's podcast and um, yeah, lean

526

whiskey and you'll appreciate this.

527

Julie is a whiskey fan of all types.

528

People can either go, they can go

to lean whiskey dot com, whether

529

they spell whiskey K E Y or K Y

530

audioJulieBrown21251411678:

I spell it E Y.

531

I always default to E Y.

532

Yeah.

533

All right.

534

audioMarkGraban11251411678: the,

that's the American spelling

535

audioJulieBrown21251411678: Oh, is it?

536

audioMarkGraban11251411678: Generally.

537

Yeah.

538

audioJulieBrown21251411678:

thanks so much for being here.

539

This was great.

540

audioMarkGraban11251411678: Yeah.

541

Thank you, Julie.

542

I appreciate the opportunity to

be here and for your questions

543

and this has been a lot of fun.

544

So, thanks.

545

Hey, so I had a little bit of a connection

issue during this recording, um,

546

which I'm sure you might have noticed.

547

And I'm sorry.

548

I've all of the things I can control.

549

The fickleness of my internet

connection is not one of them.

550

I could.

551

Could control on this particular day.

552

One thing that might have dropped out in

the recording was when mark was talking

553

about, he said the shit that doesn't

work is saying, this is a safe space.

554

And that's because someone

else saying it doesn't make it.

555

So.

556

You know, the only person

who can determine if they

557

feel safe, is that person.

558

So.

559

I think we should.

560

I try to not see those words

because it doesn't make it.

561

So also something that mark mentioned

was that in order to start creating

562

psychologically safe places,

it has to start from the top.

563

You know, if your company's leadership

and C-suite are not on board.

564

With what it takes to create work

environments, where we are allowed

565

to make mistakes, where we are

allowed to challenge the status

566

quo, where we are allowed to have

healthy and respectful debates.

567

Then it just won't happen.

568

We also need to realize that

psychological safety is not a yes or

569

a no, there are degrees to it, and it

takes time to build up to feeling safe.

570

Sadly.

571

I think we all know what it's like

to work in an environment where we

572

aren't comfortable asking questions

where we aren't comfortable making

573

mistakes, voicing opinions, but.

574

Like I mentioned in the interview.

575

You know, if companies expect

to retain workers, especially

576

now when the average tenure at a

company is just shy of three years.

577

The, we need to build environments

where employees thrive and

578

they don't want to leave.

579

Okay.

580

Oh, okay.

581

I'm super excited.

582

So onto the drink of the week, which I had

to feed her a bourbon cocktail because of

583

mine and Mark's mutual love of this stuff.

584

And I do love this cocktail.

585

And I've had it multiple times,

but up until featuring it on

586

the podcast, I'd actually never

really done any research into it.

587

So, I didn't know where

it was created, so, okay.

588

The drink is called the paper plane.

589

And it features bourbon, Aperol

and MRO, and was created in

590

2007 by bartender, Sam Ross.

591

He later started making it at the famous

milk and honey bar in New York city.

592

Now.

593

This cocktail is a spin on the

classic cocktail, the last word

594

and features equal parts of those

three ingredients that I mentioned.

595

Um, The cocktail is named after

the Mia song, paper planes, which

596

Sam Ross says he listened to

while he was creating the drink.

597

And now I love this cocktail even

more because I, I love this song.

598

It's literally 14 years old and

I still listen to it when I'm

599

running, because I love it so much.

600

Um, so if you don't know what the, what

this song is, along with the link to the

601

cocktail, I'm gonna put a link to that

video for this song, paper planes in the

602

show notes, in case you've never heard it.

603

Okay.

604

So here's what you're going

to need for the paper.

605

Plane cocktail.

606

One ounce of bourbon whiskey.

607

One ounce of Aperol, one

ounce of , Italian tomorrow.

608

Um, and one ounce of fresh lemon juice.

609

And if you want a garnish it, which it

looks really cool with the garnish, you're

610

going to need a lemon peel for garnish.

611

So what you're going to do is

add the bourbon appro Amar.

612

MRO and lemon juice to a cocktail shaker.

613

Fill it with ice and shake.

614

Shake, shake, shake, shake,

shake, shake until cold, and then

615

strain it into a cocktail glass.

616

And then use that lemon peel as a garnish.

617

All right, friends.

618

That's all for this week.

619

If you like what you heard

today, please leave a review

620

and subscribe to the podcast.

621

Also, please remember to share the podcast

to help it reach a larger audience.

622

If you want more, Julie

Brown, you can find my book.

623

This shit works on Amazon

or Barnes and noble.

624

You can find me on

LinkedIn, actually brown PD.

625

Just let me know where you

found me when you reach out.

626

I'm julie brown underscore a bd on

the instagram or you can just pop

627

Hop on over to my website julie brown

bd.com until next week Cheers guys