Catrina Lowri founded Neuroteachers to help educational settings work with their autistic and neurodivergent learners to find simple solutions for neuro -inclusive practice.

Catrina is neurodivergent herself, having the dual diagnosis of dyslexia and bipolar disorder and has traits of ADHD, dyspraxia and Auditory Processing Disorder. She is a qualified special needs teacher and an experienced SENCO and advisory teacher. She uses her unique status as an expert by lived experience and a teacher with 23 year of pupil facing experience to help schools improve behaviour, attendance, and attainment amongst pupils of all neurotypes. The Neuroteachers team do this through training, mentoring, coaching and culture change in nurseries, schools, and colleges.

Catrina’s particular area of research is around exclusion prevention. She has written two papers for the Good Autism Practice Journal. The first in 2018 was a case study about preventing exclusion for an autistic, ADHD boy with extreme demand avoidance.

The second, publish in 2020 looked at reintegrating autistic children into school after a period of persistent absence.

Catrina believes passionately in true inclusion for all. She offers schools simple, practical solutions through empowering information.

Website https://www.neuroteachers.com/training

https://neuroteachers.com/culture-change/

To read the paper on PDA and exclusion prevention

subscribepage.io/r6n0LR

To read the paper on Autism and reintegration to school after a period of persistent absence

subscribepage.io/snYakt

Twitter/ X @neuroteachers

TikTok @ neuroteachers

Threads @ neuroteachersuk

Instagram @neuroteachersuk

Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/762451187641854

Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/catrina-anne-lowri-32a7791b2/

Youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCE9_uWakdkdNem5mHBxk-Yg

Book a meeting Paula@neuroteachers.com

Iona Jackson, Head of Insights at Edurio said: “Staff wellbeing has been an ever-pressing issue due to the recruitment and retention crisis in the education sector. So, it is vital to understand the lived experience of staff working in education today as it relates to their wellbeing so that we can find solutions and provide support to enhance wellbeing across the education sector.

Staff Wellbeing in Academies drew insights from a dataset created based on the Edurio Staff Experience and Wellbeing Survey consisting of more than 11,000 staff responses captured between September 2023 and March 2024. It is available to download at https://home.edurio.com/insights/staff-welbeing-in-schools-2024 

“The aim of this report is to give school and trust leaders the information they need to create workplaces for their employees that support, take into account varying needs, and provide fulfilment for educating and raising future generations.”

This data is used to produce national analyses and insights to drive important discussions in education.

Website: www.edurio.com

Twitter: @eduriocom

https://www.linkedin.com/in/iona-jackson-7a980255/Discover more about Education on Fire

🔥 https://www.educationonfire.com/

🔥 Explore the podcast

https://www.educationonfire.com/listen

🔥 Support the show with a One-Off Tip

https://educationonfire.com/support

🔥 Ecamm Free Trial - See how I record and produce this show.

https://educationonfire.com/ecamm

Some of the above are affiliate links, I may receive a small commission if you purchase via these but there is no cost increase to you. These links help support the channel so any clicks are greatly appreciated.

Show Sponsor – National Association for Primary Education (NAPE)

https://nape.org.uk/

Membership is open to all who have a concern for the quality of primary education and the growth and development of children between birth and the age of 13. We offer both individual and whole school membership.

Catrina Lowri & Iona Jackson

Well, thank you, Mark. Yes. So my company's called NeuroTeachers. I'm a neurodiversity specialist. I'm a neurodivergent former Sanko and advisory teacher. And I work with schools, universities, colleges, businesses, and nurseries in order to improve inclusion for neurodivergent people. So we offer training, consultancy mentoring, and some work around policy as well.

Yeah. So my name is Iona and I am director of strategy at a jury. A jury runs surveys in schools in England understanding the experience of pupils, staff and parents. We have a whole host of different topics that we, we cover, but one area that I'm particularly passionate about is kind of staff related things and particularly the experience of staff of different backgrounds.

I kind of feel like nothing's going to knock me off my stride, you know, we're nice and relaxed and I know that wasn't quite how I felt back in July. Here's the academic year finished. So I [00:02:00] think understanding how that works within an academic year and how well being sort of often sort of structures itself, whether you like it or not, throughout the academic year as well is going to be an interesting sort of thing.

Just for me, it's certainly to understand, I think, is when it's sort of, let's say, The idea of how it works with different people. So Katrina, can you take us into you sort of mentioned about being a Senko? How did you sort of get into all of those initial roles first of all, and then how did you then sort of get into sort of wanting to create your own organization that was gonna that was gonna help people?

Right? Well, that's a really good question, actually. Actually, I'm meandered into special educational needs. It wasn't a deliberate choice. I had absolutely no intention of working with special needs or additional needs children. I'm, I am dyslexic. Well, that was the thing, the first neurodivergent condition that I knew of was that I was dyslexic.

At the end of the talk, one of my fellow students came to me and said, well, you see, if you're middle class like you, then you're dyslexic. And if you're working class like me. Then you're just a little bit thick. So that crushed me completely. I pushed it down and I decided I wasn't going to have anything to do with special educational needs or declare my neurodivergence from then onwards.

I quite enjoyed it. And at the end of the six weeks, I was basically right. This is, these are my people. This is what I want to do. And from then onwards, I decided that I was going to work in special educational needs. I went on to get a master's in autism. I became an advisory teacher for Gloucestershire County Council and I also worked as a special educational needs coordinator as well.

I've worked in special schools as well as a SEND teacher and I absolutely love that. I'm hugely committed to inclusion. And now, one of my big pieces of work, which is why I was kind of drawn to this project. is that I work to support neurodivergent teachers in education. Because when I first started teaching many, many years ago with the story that I just told you I thought I was the only one, but it turns out we've got quite a few neurodivergent teachers.

That's my full CV there, Mark. Yeah, amazing. And I'm really curious, and you might have quite a good insight into this, like, say, with sort of having so many people in your sort of your world and within your community. But tell me a little bit about the journey and the understanding of the training that you've done, obviously, as well as the passion to support people, but also that living experience of kind of Being in a position of truly understanding rather than just sort of academically understanding.

And then I, and then I, you know, started working with neuroteachers full time. Like, I didn't really know what masking was until I did my Master's in Autism, which was, I finished that in 10 years ago now, but I, at that point, you know, I'd been teaching for a fair few, over a decade by that point, you know.

So I didn't have a clue what masking was, and then I started to hear about masking as being this phenomenon, particularly mentioned with regards to autistic women and girls, where you basically act neurotypically, so you just act like everyone else. And the more I read about it, the more I hear about it, the more I thought, oh my god, that's me, that's, that's what I do.

And then I met someone on a training course, I was doing a training course in relational practice, and I met someone and she was an ADHD teacher who absolutely, completely declared the fact that she was ADHD. And start to compare notes with her. And she actually knew somebody else who was an autistic teacher.

And we kind of like got together and had a conversation. We're like, wow, there's like three of us. Imagine if there was like a hundred of us, you know, and now I'm in a group with over a thousand. So it's been, yeah, it's been really, really interesting to have it from, like you say, that kind of point of view of being lived experience, but actually the two things kind of intermingle in so far as if I didn't have the education and training that I have.

So Iona, why don't you take us into into your research and, and, and the things that you've been, you've been covering and then we can come back and discuss it as, as, as a group again. Yeah. So yeah, as I say, we, we run surveys with parents, pupils and staff. This project was all about staff members and it was all about particularly the wellbeing of staff members and looking at the wellbeing of staff members of different groups.

Which is a slightly tangential element of wellbeing, but we felt it was a really important thing for us to review just to see kind of where are the, where is that kind of strength and where, where are people getting their energy from alongside those kind of more. physical, more kind of squarely within the box of well being.

So that was, that was kind of where we started. And we looked at kind of overall data. So what does the picture look like in general for staff in England? And then we looked at it by role. And then we went through different protected characteristics. So in our data set, we capture across the different categories of protected characteristics that are outlined in the Equalities Act.

Less than four in 10 staff reported that they were feeling well. And a quarter reported that they were feeling not very well or not well at all. And when we looked at it by role, we could see that across the board. So all those measures that I just mentioned, overall, well being sleep overwork and so on teachers had the lowest well being every single measure that we looked at, other types of role, so leadership or administrative and so on, other types of role had more positive results than teachers, with the exception of that very last one, how often do you feel excited by the work that you do?

But the, the main thing that we're here to talk about is the, is the kind of the, the, the detail that we went into around the protected characteristics. And there was, as I said, we went across the different protected characteristics. So looking at gender, sexual orientation disability ethnicity, and, and so on.

When we looked at disability, that was the area with the biggest disparity between the majority group and minority group. Consistently across all of the measures, those who don't have a disability were much more positive than disabled staff. And I have to note here that we, we, for this analysis, we grouped Both kind of visible and invisible disabilities or physical and and kind of neuro diversity related differences.

Yeah, I guess. I guess in some ways, like you say, it's disappointing but it's probably maybe not surprising in, in lots of ways. And the one thing I just want to follow up on, first of all, Katrina, is when you were able to realise that you had a group of people that you were able to identify with, because, like you say, people sort of being honest about what their disability was, if that's the, sort of, the correct term that we can use, sort of, generally for this.

I mean, there's safety in numbers, like everyone says that all the time, don't they, as a well known phrase. But there really is when you feel like you're not. you know, a unicorn in a situation, then you, you feel a lot more accepted just to know that somebody else can go, yeah, me too, even though those people didn't have the same neurodivergent needs as me, because everyone's neurodivergent need is different.

It was, it was, it was a really important learning curve and the other thing I think that is actually very important is it's interesting that Iona said that there were so few people who identified as being disabled. It's a big problem within the unions to get people to tick that box saying they're disabled, particularly if they have a neurodivergent need, mental health need, or any other kind of invisible disability.

To say that I'm disabled. And I think one of the things which is interesting there is like you say, the idea of safety in numbers and being able to identify with people was then supportive. However, when you are a child or certainly going through school like and, and, and also sort of in the same way as you just said, it also becomes a hindrance as well because.

So you suddenly have people around you that you can identify with and probably be supportive with. But also, like I say, it gives you that sort of one step removed, which then takes away from actually the benefit that maybe came to begin with. And I guess that's something I know that maybe you sort of you could see is you start to start to get a lot of that data coming through in those different areas.

Yeah. And as I say, this was this year was the first year that we had Ask these specific questions. So in our, in our dataset for a lot of it, we go back we go back quite a few years now, but we we hadn't ever asked specifically these kind of wellbeing questions. What we had done instead was asking about different factors that might relate to positive or negative wellbeing.

And obviously Katrina was all about unions. We're, we're a third party survey provider. We're a little bit safer. There's, there's, there's much more limited stigma attached to kind of telling a box on a online survey that from a company that you don't interact with very often who you are and, and, and kind of how you identify but even so, I, I imagine that there will be some in all of our questions, we enable a kind of, I don't want to disclose this.

Perhaps they're a wheelchair user or that there's some kind of. there's something telling you visually that this person is disabled, then there's the category who they know, and perhaps they should choose to share that with you. And then there's the category who maybe they don't even know, or they haven't they haven't had a diagnosis yet, or they do know, but they they don't feel kind of safe enough to share that information.

And I also want to dive a little bit into the idea of The environment that we're in against the measures that are put in place to support people. So you sort of gathered all of this information, you kind of start to get a really good picture of of who's affected and why and and the sort of the reasons why that might be and the different sort of demographics as you go through.

Or is it just one of those things that you have that information? And then we sort of come to the conclusions through these conversations. Bit of a mix. So we have stuff at the kind of national level. So we know kind of What are the elements of the experience that are going to have a stronger or weaker relationship with those wellbeing measures?

But then that's where people like Katrina come in. We, we my, I always say that my role is kind of find the problems. And find the people who have ideas about the solution. And so it's been a really lovely collaboration with Katrina and the others who contributed on the other characteristics into the report on kind of what should we do about it?

But yeah, I think Katrina has got tons that, that she can share here. Yeah, I can imagine. We'll just jump straight in Katrina in one second. My final thoughts on this is the fact that I always have this sort of sense of the of the plaster and the and the the bat in that sense of in on one side you have this kind of look, we've got all this help for you here.

We're still going to do all those things, but you've kind of got a package, which we're able to do because we should do. But the one doesn't actually stop the other. If you weren't being hit around the legs with the bat, you wouldn't need the safety package. And by the same token, you shouldn't have been in that position to begin with.

So this is where I get really excited with the sorts of things that you're doing, Katrina, because. Understanding all of that and having a real understanding of what is possible even within the system that we're in, I guess, is what makes the biggest difference. So yeah, take us into your thoughts and what you've been able to do as part of this whole thing.

Yeah, well, I did I wrote another an article for an organization called Pixel where I did four case studies of different organizations which had worked with their neurodivergent or otherwise disabled staff and, and kind of reasonable adjustments that they've made in order to make the working environment more accessible for them.

And eventually they did an assembly about neurodivergence and talking about their own needs for the children. It had a phenomenal effect on the children in, in the school and then also on the wider community because one of the, the children in the audiences at the assembly, parents worked for a local newspaper and then this was picked up by the local newspaper and they started to kind of do a regular assembly then where they invited neurodivergent people from the [00:22:00] community in to talk with the school and this had kind of such a massive positive effect not only on the children but also on the staff as well because then subsequently there are other members of staff who you know realized ADHD and were able to ask for the kind of adjustments that they needed.

So that is a massive positive story that we have. There's some really great going work going on. As I say, my, my my group is international. Australia seems to be doing a really, really good job insofar as there are all kinds of grants and adjustments and adjustments to working hours that are available in Australia.

And there has been some really, really creative solutions that I've seen. And particularly, I must say actually from private schools, but then I suppose they've got more, they've got more they've got more facilities at, at their fingertips, let's just say. But yeah, there's some really amazing pieces of work that are going on at the moment.

And what I, I want to emphasize is as I only sort of picked up on it, sometimes the neurodivergent member of staff, or the, the, the member of staff with an invisible disability, A, might not, might not identify as disabled. B, might not actually know themselves that they have that need. They might not be at the point where they even feel confident enough to go forward for diagnosis.

But also as well, like, you know, particularly if you are a neurodivergent member of staff and you have a special interest around a subject, why not stand up in front of a class for six hours a day and talk about that subject? I mean, that's a brilliant example to everybody. But also as well, like, we have a recruitment and retention crisis in our schools at the moment.

So if we can think of creative ways of allowing our neurodivergent and otherwise disabled members of staff to still be able to contribute, to still get that absolute joy of standing up and working with these children on a day to day basis, because that is what motivates us. I mean, you know, the data kind of bears that out.

It came from the fact that I, as a member of staff, stood up and was honest and was able to share my journey and understand. Sort of explain how I work within this environment. That's much more powerful. It's like sort of project based learning where you're all doing it together. You know, there are different ways that you can do it and you can set these things out.

And the thing about doing this podcast is, is I want that ability just to be able to say, You know, we might not have that silver bullet, which actually says the system's going to look different for everybody, but everyone is different anyway. So therefore, you know, creating the environment within your school, within your class, within the next conversation you're going to have with somebody that's going to affect their world and therefore collectively our world together is a really sort of powerful thing.

I think it's a really, really good thing. And are you able to share one of those stories? You sort of said that there were some great things that you've that it happens or a way that they were able to sort of to make that work in a different way. Yeah, well, I think one of the things that is quite important, particularly for neurodivergent members of staff is being able to have your own environment in order to teach in.

is really quite important. So one example that, that I heard of, which I thought was absolutely brilliant was there was a secondary school, which again, they had a rotation of different teach teachers. So they had, I think they had eight classrooms and 12 maths teachers. So it meant that, you know, there were some people on PPA and there were some people who were teaching in the classroom and you never ended up with your own class.

And this was kind of chaotic and it was kind of quite stressful for everybody. But they also had two neurodivergent members of staff. Because, I mean, look, statistically speaking, there are more neurodivergent people who are attracted to maths, don't get me wrong, I absolutely love maths as a neurodivergent person, but there were two neurodivergent members of staff in this particular school.

And they also decided that it would be a good idea for members of staff to be able to take their PPA flexibly so that they could work hybrid on those particular days. So if they had PPA in the morning, for example, they'd have a start where they wouldn't have to cover registration. on those days that would be covered by somebody else and that meant that they had the opportunity to work from home, and they found out actually that it made quite a big difference to absenteeism it improved the attendance of the staff, it improved the well being, and then actually it had, had a huge knock on [00:29:00] effect for the department as a whole and, you know, how they got on within the department, you know, that sort of like relational experience.

So I thought that was an absolutely brilliant story and it just goes to prove the kind of creativity that you can do and you know what, like, state schools are just so amazing at just finding these, this, oh, I'm just going to find this extra piece of space. I wonder what's behind this cupboard, you know?

I'm just going to take a hammer to this wall and see what's there. That's not, that's not advisable. It wasn't partitioned. Yeah, exactly and they did get actually get the caretakers to do that. I mean, I'm not suggesting that you take Fantastic picture in my head of what's going on And I think the other thing that I was already sort of took away from that is the fact that it really is a two way Street, isn't it?

Is there something I can do? Is there someone I can ask? Is there a conversation? Is there a room like you say that no one ever particularly uses or we think there might be something that we've heard of which might just make this difference and then it becomes proactive and I think the the energy that goes with this we talked about being excited about what's going on and everything as well I think that really does make all the difference and so I I think that sort of being proactive with yourself as well as that waiting for a leadership or whoever to sort of come and say we've got a solution for your problem I think sort of that sort of you.

two way street is a really, really key thing. And yeah, I look forward to sort of hearing more of those things as it goes through. And I know, I know, like I say, once you have more data and you have more sort of areas that you're able to sort of ask questions around, I guess that's going to be something which you'll be able to target a little bit more.

And that is hugely important. I, I remember in a previous project working with Ruth Golding from disability ed. And she, she gave a, an example, which sounds. absurd but the it, yeah, it's sort of basically someone, there was, there was a situation where there was a wheelchair user and a non wheelchair user being required to teach on the first floor.

And both of them were required to teach on the first floor. Because that was fair that we give, sorry, because it was equal. We're, we're, we're treating them equally. We're going to ask both of them to teach on the first floor. That's where the classroom is. Might be treating them equally, but it's not treating them fairly.

But I think, yeah, the the policy side of it is and the kind of that those around creating that environment. Is so, so important. And there is, there is the side around the kind of individuals either fighting their corner advocate for themselves or kind of looking for those little wins, but I think with what Katrina is doing and having this network and having those people talking to each other in the Facebook group or whatever is those little wins stop being pockets in the corner, they start being ideas that can kind of spread and, and, and sort of, yeah, build on from each other.

What can you suggest? And there'll be, you know, 16 or 17 different people who will jump in to do that. So it has been, it's, it's It's a support group, that's what I set it up for. You know, because like I said, I thought it was a unicorn. But actually, there's quite a few unicorns. I mean, statistically speaking, there should be quite a few people in teaching who are, who are neurodivergent.

I made sure that I had a walk with the dog in the morning so that I felt really regulated. I did everything I possibly could, you know, had a shower and, you know, washed my hair and made sure that I had the comfortable clothes on, et cetera, to make sure I was there. I prepared myself. I thought of small talk conversation I could have as well and practice that with a friend, because there is going to be an element, there's going to be an element of, you know, trying to, to present your best social self.

experiences. And if you've got a social communication difference, then, you know, you might come across as incredibly blunt because you're not the sort of person who's standing around, you know, making small talk, et cetera. You might get straight to the point and only give short answers because you've been told that this is only a 15 minute interview and you don't want to waffle.

I'm going to an event in October and it's all with creators and podcasters and people on video. And so many of them are saying, you know, the thing they're worried about the most is the fact that they feel quite introverted. They're not quite sure how to get the conversation started or what they're going to do.

And because so many people have spoken about it, we're gonna just sort of find an area where everyone who's feeling like that can just go to one particular part of the room when we first get there for the first party. And because we kind of all know we're all in that situation, we're in a position to say, okay we're, we're, you know.

We're all humans. We're all interacting. We're all trying to do the best we possibly can. And I think when we're we're meeting on that level, and we're talking on that level, and we're empathetic on that level, then all sorts of things can happen in a positive way and then whatever the stigmatism, the labels, the research, whatever that happens to be, all that sort of disappears to a point where it's just kind of, what are we doing now?

How can we help each other? And how can we sort of move forward? And I think at that point, everyone feels like they've got a power to sort of To be their best selves, which is, I guess, essentially what we're trying to do, and certainly within the education profession, trying to help that with the people that we're, that we're involved in as well.

About my about a teacher who I found inspirational. Yeah. I had a year six teacher called Ms. White, who I probably would describe what she did as kind of relational practice. Now she really got to know us as individuals, so I felt, you felt like you mattered as a, as a, as a person. And like, I've just been, I've been diagnosed as di as dyslexic when I was in year five.

And I'd had a teacher who'd done pretty much the opposite. And I kind of felt quite crushed by the whole experience. I had quite a lot of shame attached to my dyslexia. But Miss White made it all right, if I'm going to, like, be a poet about it. And she had belief in me that I could fulfill my full potential.

Yeah, I love that. And I think that human connection is that and like say, just knowing that person and just taking that extra time is such a powerful thing. And Iona, you're going to take us into a favorite piece of advice you were given or some or some advice that you would sort of now give your younger self looking back.

So I am female. I went to a girl's school. I I, Tend to that there were elements of the way that I communicate with people that I think have been kind of hard coded into me through kind of nurture and through kind of what's expected of me in my kind of place in the world. And one of those things is if I'm asking someone to do something for me, I will say, would it be okay if you, could you just sort of the words like that, kind of, rather than stating what I need and saying, I need, I need this thing sort of doing it a bit more timid way and packaging it around, like if you're not too busy, if you don't mind and, and things like that.

Obviously they can say no, they can, even if I'm being direct, they can still say no, and they'll have a good reason for it and so on, but rather than giving, rather than starting with that invitation for kind of, Oh, she doesn't mind if I do this or not. So if I do mind, I should make it clear that that is kind of what I'm, what I'm, what I'm actually asking.

And. Can I just follow up with that? Was there sort of a lightbulb moment of kind of, I didn't realise that was the way I was going about it. Was it, was it sort of that sense of, Oh yeah, now I understand how I'm coming across, but also how that might then look or what the result might be beyond that. Yeah, it and I still do it, but I try and catch myself and I think I'm getting better at it.

And I had a few instances of kind of, they're not. listening to me? Why aren't they listening to me? And then actually I had the evidence right in front of me because I didn't actually ask them. I gave them this sort of roundabout speech around this thing that might be nice. They heard me say this thing might be nice, but they didn't hear me say, can you do this thing?

And so I think that's, I think that's the, the, the sort of, it starts with a sort of frustration and they're like, what's not, what's happening here? Why, why is everyone ignoring me? Why am I not being kind of respected? Why my wish is not being respected. Oh, because they're not actually being communicated properly.

So yeah, thanks for sharing that. It's really sort of, sort of strikes me as something I can, I can really improve on as well as. Identify with as well. Katrina I believe there's a resource you'd like to share and we always sort of mentioned it could be anything from a video, a song, book, film, podcast, but what is it that you've decided to share with us?

Right, well, it's my current hyperfocus at the moment as an ADHD person. My current hyperfocus is Beth of Hardwick and this is a little guide that I got from Hardwick Hall, which I visited on the weekend. I have no affiliation with the National Trust, by the way, I just like National Trust properties.

And this is a pitch book, right? So, I like maps, and I like pictures being in my book as well. Sorry, I'm going to just do it like that. Okay. So basically, yeah, I'm a grown woman with a master's degree. And I don't read books, I use audio books, or I use books that are guides with pictures in them.

And it just goes to show that I am a neurodivergent adult. I obviously, you know, I have a degree that's in German history. So. I'm that level with my history understanding, but I still would much rather read this picture guide than a large, you know, 500 page biography. I have actually read a 500 page biography of Bess of Hardwick, but I read it using an audiobook, because I don't read big chunks of text anymore, insofar as I have the technology.

It's what we do generally as adults, we find our way to do that. And I think certainly being able to bring that into the education environment and within a classroom for that matter, whether you're a teacher being able to bring that in or a student that needs it, it just makes all the difference to what that learning feels like.

And I've even noticed it with my daughter recently. She was definitely put off reading at school because she had to read this particular series and do it in this way. And then you had to do this and nine. You know, as a sick former, she suddenly realized that it can just be fun. There's all sorts of things out there, which really enjoyable.

What is it that strikes you when you when you hear these words? And I think I know you're going to start us off with this. Yes, we we divvied up the big words. So I'm gonna do feedback. And then I'll come back at the end and I'll do empowerment. But yeah, I think for feedback, the best example I could think of is actually the way that Adurio Runs itself as a company.

So I've worked in a few different organizations and I think I might be on my fourth office job. And this is my, this is my first office job where feedback and transparency is at the core of the way that the company is run. And it's something that we're quite kind of obsessive about. And now being on the leadership team, it's something that I am kind of, it is part of my job to be.

Like, Oh, we haven't hit our targets. Is there going to be layoffs? That, that, that kind of like speculation and that kind of gossip, I think. You strip out a huge amount of wasted time if everyone can just be sort of transparent with each other and can sort of share that information and, and, and you're coming at something from the same point of understanding.

It doesn't, we haven't eradicated it. There are still times where you, you think you're on the same page or you sort of, you shared something and it's, and so on. But I think, I think having, I think a ju is for me, like a, a surprisingly good example, and I say surprisingly. Because I haven't ever seen another company like it, rather than because I don't know why a jury would be able to do it.

But as I said, she was an entrepreneurial, independent businesswoman 450 years ago. And it was quite patriarchal in those days. And don't get me wrong. She did marry the patriarchy four times before she became an independent businesswoman. And she inherited well, but she made the most. of everything that she had available to her.

And she wanted to make it, you know, economical to be able to do that. And in those days, glass was incredibly expensive. So rather than buy glass from somewhere, she just founded her own glassworks. And did it that way. And that meant that she also, she, you know, could get the glass at cost, but also she could bring other people around and say, Oh, do you like the glass in my windows?

You know, do you fancy buying some glass from my new glassworks? Sort of thing. And I just think that, that kind of, that, that kind of, way of thinking of things in a different way is something that we can do. Like, like those people who have said previously about, you know, finding a cupboard that had a partition wall in it and realizing it was much bigger and could be turned into a new office.

And that's, you know, and that's what Bess did. And that's why she's such an inspiration to me. The other thing is as well, resilience, if I'm going to go on to the next one here, the reason that, I mean, in terms of resilience again, her motto was patience over fortitude. Patience over fortitude. And she was an incredibly long lived woman insofar as in those days, she lived to 81, which is probably like the nowadays equivalent of living to like 120, like, you know, there was plague in those days.

They didn't live that long, but she did. And, you know, she, she lived to kind of fulfill her dream of being able to buy back her family lands, which her brother had lost through. through being terribly indebted. And she lived to build her own house on her own land, which again is incredible for a woman from the, from that time.

And you could be like, you could be like someone's year one teacher and have absolutely no idea, but you have an inkling that that child is actually, you know, got a thought or some potential. And the reason that what's holding them back is that they've got a hidden disability or a neurodivergent need.

And you put those things in place. And then they come back to you years later when they go on to secondary school and say, actually, do you know what, I'm doing really well now, and this and this has happened. Or you see them as an adult in the supermarket, like, you know, 20 years later, randomly, and they go, actually, you know, what you, Those things that you put into place really helped me to get to the point.

Yeah, I will. After I suggest that Katrina, you send this podcast to Mrs. White when it goes out so she can hear. That you were that acorn. Yeah, on the, on the empowerment front. This is, this is something that could have been that piece of advice when the answer to the question, what's some really good advice that you've received?

I have a feeling Katrina and I didn't share with each other what we were going to say. We just shared what, which bit we'll, we'll, we'll tackle. I think Katrina, you might like this one. I when I was at uni, I was, I did a placement year where I went and worked in industry for a year between my second and final year.

And I had chatted to my friend and her mom was there to pick her up from uni and said like, Oh, I'm a bit nervous about the interview. I think I probably kind of, I've got this sort of suit that I'm going to wear and I'm not sure that I'm going to feel comfortable in it. I need to straighten my hair because I don't want to kind of.

I don't want to appear as this kind of like, I don't, I don't want to look weird. I don't want to sort of stand out and sort of anything like that. And my, and my friend's mom was like, what are you talking about? Your hair, like your hair is part of your identity. Go wear the curly hair, be the girl when they're at the end of the day.

Whenever I have these moments of kind of people are going to think, what is she doing here? Why is she having this conversation? I remember that conversation where, where my friend's mum just stopped me and said, no, this is, This is part of you and this is what part of what makes you special. So own it.

And, and then I got that job anyway. So yeah, I think maybe, maybe because I have my curly hair, I don't know. But yeah, that's, that's my kind of moment of empowerment. I love it.

It's incredible and I think and I love it because it's it so many people will be able to identify with that in a really positive Way, you know Like say you thought it was one thing and it turns out to be another and someone else points that out to you And then yeah, I absolutely love it. I think it's so so really really powerful in, in such a straightforward way.

So thank you both for such a fascinating conversation and for all the great work that you're doing. Just before we go, Do tell us where people can find that more. We'll start with you Katrina, and then, and then we can I'll come to you, Iona, and you can share yours as well. So what's the website that people need to go to first of all, Katrina?

My website is www. neuroteachers. com and I'm available on pretty much all social media. So Blue Sky Threads, Instagram Facebook and TikTok all as at neuroteachers or at neuroteachers UK. Fantastic. And Iona. Yeah. So our website, Adurio's website is home. adurio. com. And I'm personally available.

And I think so many people are going to get so much positivity out of it. And yeah, thank you so much indeed. Thanks so much. Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.