Amidst the cluttered landscape of social media feeds, there exists a timeless avenue where relationships are nurtured and conversions flourish - the humble yet mighty, email inbox. Patty, together with Judi Harrington, dive into the strategy of effective email marketing and the importance of giving it a personal touch. They also cover why storytelling isn't just for books – but a powerful tool to connect and engage. Patty & Judi will walk you through the nuances of what makes readers click and stick to your emails. From the strategic placement of the unsubscribe button to respecting your reader's time, Patty and Judi cover it all – including tips on frequency, consistency, and why unsubscribing can benefit your focus on more engaged subscribers. It's an episode packed with insights on email marketing do's and don'ts.

Key Takeaways:

• Homepage Essentials - seven-second rule for website homepages
• Comparing an email list to valuable real estate
• Balancing email frequency and content relevance
• The inevitability of unsubscribes and focus on interested recipients
• Understanding the dos and don'ts in marketing
• Storytelling’s impact on marketing effectiveness
• Leveraging email for lead engagement and relationship building
• Personalization and Subscriber Retention
• Infusing humor into emails to boost ROI
• Making the Audience the Hero
• Subject Lines and Email Timing
• The Power of Email Marketing ROI

About our Guest: 

Meet Judi Harrington, recognized as "Judi 411" – the one-woman hive mind, prolific content creator, storytelling expert, and passionate business enthusiast known for her ability to help business owners transform their ideas into compelling narratives from crafting captivating website copy, curating engaging blogs, and producing newsletters that ensure a deep connection with target audiences. 

Judi is also a published author, book editor, and a writing coach who specializes in helping entrepreneurs bring their book ideas out in the world, where they belong.

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5 Ways to UN-Boring Copy

6 Hot Tips for Email Storytelling

Connect with Patty:

PattyFarmer.com

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Twitter/X

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Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's edition of Marketing Media And Money. I'm so excited to be here today. And I'm really excited for our guest today. Because I have to tell you, I have personally worked with her myself. And she is not only a great storyteller and copywriter, but she does it with umur. And in a way that I think really connects with your audience. So what I want to talk about today is we're going to talk about how do you infuse that in your email marketing, right? You know, a lot of times on social, we can do it. But when it comes to email, we kind of sort of dropped the ball there, because we're just not really sure how we should do it. But she's going to tell us how we can get the best ROI from our storytelling in our email marketing. So let me tell you a little bit about our guest today. So me Judi Harrington. She's recognized as Judi 411. The one woman hive mind prolific content creator, storytelling expert and passionate business enthusiast, known for her ability to help business owners transform their ideas into compelling narratives. From crafting, captivating website, copy, curating, engaging blogs, and producing newsletters that ensure a deep connection with their target audience. Judi is also a published author, a book editor and a writing coach who specializes in helping entrepreneurs bring their book ideas out into the world where they belong. So I very excited to have her. Judi, thank you so much for being here with me today.

Thank you so much, Patty. It's great to be part of the conversation. I love being here. Thank you.

You're so welcome. So let's just dive right in. So I think that a lot of times, we think that we have to be great storytellers. And while I think it is a skill, we all need to hone. I think one of the questions that I get asked from my clients all the time, is, which comes first, the story or the lesson, so to speak on what the value is that I want to bring to my audience, you know, and I think there was a time when in newsletters, and blogs and email that we used to want them to be super robust. That's what people wanted. But now, our attention span is not quite what it used to be. And everybody wants you to get there like a lot faster. So really, how do we do that? How do we tell a really good story, but tell it in a way that's kind of snack sized? Right? And also gets the lesson and the value that we want to bring to our audience? Because it seems like that's an awful lot to be able to do and a social media post or a newsletter, nevermind an email?

It is you're absolutely right, there definitely has been a shift from the long form story. I mean, I often joke about I think the biggest offender of this was like the recipes online, there's the big long story that we wait and wait and wait to get to the juicy bits, literally. But you're right, people have moved more into the idea of Tell me the facts, then tell me the story, and then repeat the facts to me again. So that's kind of the way I frame it up for folks is that I set the situation up. And from there, I try to get the story out of that. So for instance. So for example, I just recently judged at a music festival this weekend. And so I shared that with my audience and said, Hey, did you know this about me? Did you know that before I was a writer, I was a musician. And I gave them a quick snapshot of my musical background. And I said, I'm actually going to be judging a Music Festival this weekend. And then in the PS, I jumped into the call to action, which is, hey, if you want to make prose that sayings work with me, as a writing coach, to bring your light to bring your stories to life. So the shorter, the better get to the point right away, you don't need to do a whole lot of build up, or a whole lot of suspense, you can be very, very clear and quiet.

That's really important too, because a lot of times if you lose them, they're never gonna get to the call to action, right? Because you're already going to have lost them. And I think a lot of that comes back to communication style. You know, I know as a marketer, communication style is so important, because a lot of times when you're talking to someone, they make a decision in the first five seconds and they're like, give me the button, you know, tell me what the call to action is now, whereas some people want to have a lots of knowledge, right? That's why in sales pages and landing pages, you see a button throughout the whole thing because that way people can jump in when they want to do it. So we don't want to hear a big long story. If we get it we're already making a decision. So you certainly don't want to stop somebody from you know, hitting that button if that's what they want. However, sometimes they have to hear a story from you several times to really know whether Oh, you know what, I do need somebody to help me but are you the right person to help me and then they want to know your vibe. So I think that is it's kind of like a balance, right really getting to know what that balance is.

Yes. And so interestingly, you mentioned sales pages, because I hear a lot of people say, I don't want this big long sales page that goes on and on and on. And I'm like, Well, the reason that sales pages are written in that way that they are the big long form is because there are different types of buyers out there somebody, some buyers have to know every single scintilla of detail, and they're not going to hit Buy, until they get into all the minutia that they have to know, everything, like, what the color of everything is, what you're going to do, what they're gonna do, how long it's gonna take, they need to know everything. So we write largely for that buyer in mind. But also, we break it up with the points in the sales page, like, you get to the point where you've had enough, okay, I'm ready to buy now I'm ready to learn more, I'm ready to make that call major those things right. But the awesome. The other point of this too, is that we have to tell the story in a way that's not so much talking about us, but showing the reader what's in it for them. That's really what everyone's waiting for, like, what's in this for me, that's great that you're telling me this joy, but what's in it for me. And unfortunately, like it, I love it. That's the That's the crux of a good sales conversation is letting people understand what's in it for them. It's not so much I joke about the about section of websites or LinkedIn profiles, and like, it's called about you, but it's not about you. It's about the people trying to connect with you and see how they can see themselves in your story of how you help people like them.

I think that's true, because they want to be the hero. And a lot of times people do think, Oh, I have to talk about me all the time. Because that's how I get credibility. I think that people when they're thinking about hiring you, they probably already have researched you a little bit right, they already have kind of followed you and heard some of that already. And like you said, when you're going to somebody's website, like your homepage really tells me Oh, do you do the thing that I'm looking for? This is what I'm looking for. But the bow page or section, whichever the case may be, is really like, yes, I've decided that I need it. But do I be you? That is kind of really with case, do we have the right five, so I think having good storytelling skills, but also really knowing when to make it be about you, which is really just like you said, credibility piece. But that can be very small. But it's really about what hiring you will do for them because it's really always all about them. Yeah,

Exactly. They want to see themselves and the story like that whole hero's journey. It's like the tale as old as time as I love to say it's like we have the person with the problem. They're looking for the Sherpa to bring them on the path to the solution, they find the solution, they've had this transformation. And then it's you know, quote unquote, the happily ever after. But those are, those are the main talking points and to like, when you talk about that homepage, on a website, you have to answer for people in a really short period of time, who you are, who you serve, what you do, and what makes you different. Like you have to get those talking points out really quickly, just something like seven seconds, before people will either stay on your page, move to something else on your website, or just bounce entirely.

Now I think that's really true. And I know that when I am looking, I am one of those people who is very action driven. And I'm really indecisive. So I really want to get the information. But the thing that I've also noticed about storytelling is, you know, as a speaker, it's really important when you tell a story, you know, you start this story, then you kind of go into the mucky muck of problem, right, you know, but you got to get them out of the story too. You've got to do the whole loop. Otherwise, you're leaving them in the mucky muck, which is something that you know, most you know, speakers know. But in storytelling, I also feel like you want them to see themselves in the story. But that's why you can go on and on and on. Because if you keep talking now they see themselves in the story. And now they don't see themselves in the story anymore, then you could have kind of sort of blew it for yourself really right there because you kept on talking right? Yeah. Oh

It' strue. And Donald Miller has made a whole empire out of the whole hero's journey and telling the story in that way. And teaching people to craft a story that helps the reader see themselves in it, because when people see the action of the protagonist, and they see the outcome that that protagonist gets they want to be the protagonists. Right. Right. And so this is it's interesting, you should bring this up because one of the things that I work with clients a lot on is what within their website copywriting I usually cultivate Curie a couple of testimonials from their happiest clients, I'll say, Give me three of the happiest clients who have are the clients that you wish you could clone. And we all have that, you know, that archetype. Like if I could clone this person, then I wouldn't ever have to go look for another client. Right? But when I so what I do is I interview those clients and find out and I take into the hero's journey, what was your problem? Why just why did you choose party? What was the work that you did together? What was your transformation? And then the last question I asked them is, what would you tell your best friend about working with Patty, and that's when the floodgates open. And from there, we capture some of the most juicy bits of copy that gets that get infused into people's website. So it was not even just necessarily about that testimonial. And using that testimony on your website, of course, we're going to cultivate some of those types of testimonials to, but we really get a nice deep dive into what an ideal customer is looking for, and why they stay and why they stick around and why they refer.

Which I think is really important too. Because I think a lot of times, we get used to using our words, right? You know, we write sales pages, landing pages, or whatever the case may be, whatever our verbiage is, but the thing that we don't always remember is, that's not how people refer to us or look for us. And we live in a world where people do it with our voice now, not just typing into Google. So it is really important to know what the words are and kind of reminds me of a back in the day, we don't see it so much. But remember, when we used to see all those posts on social that people would say, Oh, if you had five words to describe me, what would those five words be? And they used to ask people to put in those words were those were pretty much nice as adjectives that people were really doing about you, which is really great, but not also the things that you would use. But that last question you said about asking them? How would you talk about Patty or whoever, with your best friend really kind of dials in the words that they would use? But yet the other questions are really important, too, because I'm sure we have all had somebody introduce us and say, Oh, my gosh, you need to know her. She's amazing. And she's brilliant. But yet, they really don't tell anybody what you actually do.

Every time Yes, right.

So you need them both, right? You need both of those things. So I think that's really important. So now let's kind of shift that over a little bit to email marketing, right? Because it's a little bit different when you're doing email. And in a world where people are getting, I don't know, I probably get 300 emails a day. Right? Very, the lead is really good. What are you going to say? How good is the subject line? And what is the first sentence that you're going to say to me that's going to grab my attention. I know of all the emails, I probably have six newsletters, so to speak, that I read every single time, they always tell me a good story, they always correlate it to a good lesson of something that I could take their way. They're short and sweet. And I can stop right now and do it. Instead of saying, Oh, well, I'll come back to that, because that's too long. But I want to read it. But I know I never do because it gets buried. Right. So I think that is really important. So let's kind of start with this. You know, a lot of times people are saying that email is dead. Right? You know, that email is a marketing strategy is dead. I don't believe that to be true. As a marketer, I just believe that email is dead. Right? Yeah, you know, so I feel like, let's kind of start with that. So from your point of view, and this is what you do for a living, and you're very, very good at it. What do you think are some of the elements that are really key? Before we even get to the story in the copy? What are some of the elements that are really important that are going to make or break your email right from the get go?

Yeah, well, the one thing I want to actually lead with this with with email in general, I just want to touch upon that whole email is dead. There's a statistic that I read recently that something like 97% of people read email in the morning before they go on social media. And the other aspect of having an email list is you own your list. We had the face of the latest greatest Facebook outage a few weeks ago. And, you know, people weren't able to connect with their audience with their, you know, their reels and their you know, Facebook Lives and things like that. But when you have your list, you own your list. And when you're not using that, it's like leaving money on the table.

It is I feel like it's literally like real estate. And I tell my clients all the time. What if you had all of your followers all the people from Instagram and all the people from LinkedIn and all your social media and they were all on your email list? No. You know, would that increase your bottom line is that really is the real estate and I Love this statistic that you say because I know that for me when I get up when I'm having coffee, that's right, I sit down and I look at my email. I am not one of those people, although I know there are, oh, just so many people who actually look at their social media in bed, like on their phone, I don't even keep my phone in my bedroom. I know that there are those people who look at that too. But I don't think they're doing anything besides entertaining themselves by being scrolling through social media. So that's not the same thing as when you're in business mode. And you're you know, and now you're working right now you're actually working, we do look at our inbox. Now, I will say for me, that I also believe that my inbox is everybody else's agenda for me. So I don't look at my inbox till I decide what my day is going to look like me to feel whatever. The first thing that I do, once I do decide that is I do look at my inbox. And I feel like that is the like, the most important thing because I control it, I control what I subscribe to, or don't write, you know, and they say that, nowadays that when people are reading their email, they have one finger on the delete button all the time. So it is really,

At this morning, I deleted a whole bunch of things now. And usually on Fridays, I have a whole unsubscribe 20 minutes where I just unsubscribe things. I just I'm not because to me, it's like, you know, in a lot of cases, people you get to a certain threshold in your email list, and then you're, you know, it's costing you money to send it out, right? So why am I going to make, why am I going to cost somebody money, if I'm not going to be engaging with them, like there's some people I follow for a particular period of time, because they're talking about a topic that's very meaningful to me. But then if they start going down a path that just not for me, then I'll unsubscribe. But then if I hear about something else on social, I might jump on again, you know, so you can come in and be a fair weather person. But for me, social is more likely to water cooler, right? Whereas email is more of where you're getting business done. So I would say back to, you know, the the question like how to, you know how to frame this up, it's really, you got to have a good subject line, and you have to something is really captivating. And also, someone actually gave me this tip recently, that making sure that your subject line is no more than seven words, because on mobile than everything else gets cut off, which

I think is a really good tip. I actually heard that Tip two. And I think it's really important. Where do you stand? Judi? I'm putting emojis in the subject line. I'm seeing it more and more. Nowadays. I'm not sure I love it

I might I will employ an occasional emoji. But I'm not one for like, I don't want it all over the place like that, to me is just distracting. And I've seen, I mean, has to be on brand for you. I mean, if you're a financial advisor sending out an email, unless the emojis in your subject line, you know, I don't want an emoji from my accountant.

I think it really depends on who your avatar is, right? Who is your who is your ideal client? And what do they want to see. So if you're 25, or 30, maybe you're looking

If you're, if you're marketing to millennials, or you know, whatever the the new term is, for people born after 2000, I've lost track of all these, these terms. But if you're marketing to a younger crowd, then yeah, emojis in the subject line probably are appropriate. And having them strategically sprinkled throughout your tags is probably expected. Because in some ways, this is how they communicate. But again, I think it really comes down to who you're speaking to, and how welcome is going to be for them like, and you now you've been a subscriber on my list for a long time. I don't really throw a whole lot of them in there. every once awhile, I feel like it's, it's a good, it just kind of a playful thing. It's a bit of a playful tone, of course, but otherwise, like, I don't need to put a clock because you know, something is, you know, the time window is closing on something, people are able to read that. From my avatar, it's just not the same thing.

But it's like you said, if you're only going to have seven words, you don't want an emoji to take up that space, in fact, pay.

That's a great point too. And then I really love to play with preview lines. Those again, you try to keep them within seven because people are most people are actually checking their email in the morning on mobile. And also it's when you send it so I tend to send my emails out, they go out on Tuesdays and they go usually at the crack of dawn because I want to be as close to the top of the email queue as humanly If possible, I also tell people don't go chasing whatever the latest data is on when's the best time to send my when's the best time to send my newsletter, my, it's best for you to pick a time and stick stick with it like people know, Tuesdays is when I send my newsletter. That's it. And the data has shown, you know, I know I remember what it used to be like Tuesdays at four was the best time for you to send it. I've heard from a couple people recently that the data is showing Tuesday and Thursday mornings. If you're selling something, sometimes Friday is a great time to send an email out, people are more willing to hit yes, on a Friday than maybe on a Monday. But at the end of the day, I think be consistent on the day and time and people will come to expect that that's when your email is going to come in.

I agree with that. And if you know, your ideal audience, that's what should help you make the decision in the first place and then be consistent. But know that although I do feel like with anything from a marketing point of view, you know, you want to look see your insights tweak when necessary. But once you actually settle in and see that, oh, if this is working, you know, then just pay attention to the insights, watch it make tweaks when you have to like being consistent, I think is very important. So while we're talking about email marketing, I believe and I've been seeing a lot of statistics, that it even outperform social media. I think a lot of times people think that social media will album for email marketing, but I do not believe that to be true. Email marketing is where people really make decisions. A lot of times on social, I don't care how many times people like something or whatever. Sometimes things are just interesting. And it's really easy. And I just want people to know, I'm supporting you, or Oh, that was interesting. So you leave a like or even a comment. But some of these even when people comment, some of their comments are just like so true truth bomb, like an emoji a gift, whatever, that doesn't necessarily mean they're buying from you, right? I also feel like when you're thinking about does this have a call to action versus non have a call to action. So I feel like email marketing outperforms social media. But the combination of both of them and getting it right is really good. But let's talk about how email marketing does outperform social and what are some of the key ways to employ email marketing in your business, right? Especially like with a newsletter, like email, like, just like anything else, you need a funnel

For sure. And the ROI that I mean, I've seen this stat again, again, and again. And actually the number has risen since I started following this data a few years ago is it 36 to one, so for every dollar you spend, you can expect to receive $36 in return. And I've seen that number rise to as high as 42. So I've seen data with some good numbers within that range. And I would love to, if someone can show me data that beats out on social, I'll gladly concede my point. But I think social again is the watercooler and it's to bring awareness to your brand, feel clear calls to action to bring people to your website, get on your list, get your freebie get warmed up in that welcome email sequence, and then have a regular cadence of communicating with them. Over time, you, you know, build that list up and you continue to make that connection with somebody. So that's really how I see email marketing, kind of dovetailing a little bit with social is that social brings people you know, to the water of your website, right? Again on there, every good website has a great, you know, downloadable freebie, people are happy to give their email address in exchange for the freebie. And a particularly but and this is where I see people kind of dropping the ball a bit is that once you get the freebie in their hands, there is an expectation that you're going to be in some kind of engagement, some kind of conversation with them in what we call the welcome sequence. I mean, you and I are really familiar with this ourselves. But you know, for the audience, it's that, you know, five to six emails kind of introducing yourself like I think of it as like inviting people into your living room and saying, Hi, thanks for coming here. Here's a drink put your code over here and let me engage you in some conversation like what was it about the freebie that made you download it like what are you looking for? hit reply and let me know. Then if you get into the you know in other emails, I usually like to throw in a reminder in case you missed the freebie, here's the link. By the way. I'm Judi Harrington. I'm a copywriter for the overlooked and misunderstood over the next couple of emails. I'm going to talk to you about some ways that I work with people, the things that I do show you some of my best stuff. And then you'll be on the email list going forward, you'll get my weekly newsletter. So kind of set that expectation that no, this email series is not going to go on forever. And there isn't like a hard sell right away. That's so like, via really, it's a welcome sequence, you want to warm up this person, you want them to stick around beyond the freebie. So setting that expectation and also making it clear, you're not here to like hammer home a hard sale on them. That's really the magic of it. And then I always say there's a, an email in that sequence where you show them some of your best stuff. But for me, it's I point people to my portfolio, and show the websites, newsletters, emails, blogs, the stuff that I've written. And then you know, toward the end of day, if you want to have a further conversation about how I might be able to help you in some of those ways, a discovery calls a great way to start. I'm not pushing them or anything except connect with me.

I think that when you serve somebody in some way, so you know, if your downloadable freebie so to speak, is a value and it shouldn't be right. It also needs to be valued, because that's kind of like your first impression, right? You know, I mean, I am downloaded some freebies and thought, wow, this is off, like, you know, it's like not very good. And you're like, Okay, that's the end of that conversation. You don't even go any further, right? But I think that if you give somebody somebody something valuable, and they're thinking, Oh, my gosh, if I got this for free, like what would it be like if I actually paid her? And then you're doing a great welcome series, and you're letting people know and setting like you set the expectation of how often are they going to hear from you, you know, like, I find that if somebody tells me that I'm going to hear from them every week, or, or whatever, and then all of a sudden, I'm hearing from them every day, that's the quickest. That is the quickest, unsubscribing Super App, right? But like, whatever you say, this is your first way of telling people that this is what I'm saying. I'm doing what I'm saying, which is what starts that know, like trust factor. But then also the nurture sequence really lets them know that no, I really care about you. And I want to have an engaged conversation because we're building a relationship here. Right. And I think that one of the best ways I have ever seen it. And I don't see a lot of people do this. Well, I have to say, but when they do, they do it really well. When I get a newsletter or an email from someone that I know, like, you know, not like my best friend, but somebody that I know, a business acquaintance. And when I look at it, I think, did they send that to me? Is this like personal to me? Or is this something they're sending out? And I can't even tell? Right? You know, when I have to say, wait a second all at the Tiktaalik. Was that like, were you asking me that question? Or is

For me personally, as Patty farmer is a couple people

Who do it so well, they've actually been came back visa patent, I asked you a question. And you didn't respond by Didn't you get my email? I'm like, Oh, I thought that was your newsletter. I thought that was like an email that went out to everybody,

Both directions, right, you could send an email that seems so generic, that you, as the reader might say, Oh, this is just a mass email to people and moving on. But then the inverse is that it could be so well written that you truly feel like they're talking just to you,

Which is a beautiful thing, right? You know, but in this case, what had happened the last time, which was not very long ago, because I knew that person, so Well, I just picked up the phone and texted them, right, you know, whenever. But with that said, I think that is a beautiful thing, because nobody wants to be in a mass. But at the same time, they also know that when they signed up to get whatever that valuable download was that, you know, they're just starting to learn to like you and to know you and what to expect from you. So that's why the nurture sequence, I think, is so important, and then setting them up. But here's the question that I asked myself all the time. And it is one of the most important questions when on producing content. Isn't that is this getting somebody to sign up for your email? That's probably the easiest thing to do getting them to stay on your email list. AD is like, where is the stickiness of why should they stay? And so one of the things that I do personally, in my own nurture sequence is to let them know what they're going to expect and what the benefits are right? You know, these are things that I do for the people who are in my community that everybody else doesn't get, right, you know what I mean? And so they want to stay it's valuable. And in a time where people want their information like just like this, they want to be really short and sweet. Get to the point. I feel like it is really important. So there's a lot of things that you have to do and cover. So what are some of them most important ones, like what are some questions that people should be thinking about? When they're setting it up? Like so to speak? Like, what are the three things that before they hit? You know, sin? Like, what should they be looking at to know? Oh, okay, this is good, right?

It's interesting, because you talked about this whole idea of the email sounding like it's going directly to the person versus like a mass email. So I think you have to make a decision on that whole greeting, like an I alternate, because my brand is a little different. Sometimes my greeting will be, this is one of my more famous ones. Good morning, my fellow inmates and people get a chuckle out of that one. But there are a lot of times to where I have it defaulted, like, dear subscriber name. So go, dear Patty, and the story kind of moves into like, let me tell you something that happened here and Judi form on one land, and how, what I learned from this, and here are how this relates to copy messaging, what have you, right? So you have to decide, I think it and I try to do this, I try to have a monthly theme. So you're gonna be really clear, like, Okay, you just want to be like, show them everything, everywhere all at once. Right. So be clear on what you want to talk about for the month. So last month, I talked all about LinkedIn. This month, I'm talking about websites, and I'm dovetailing into testimonials. Because in my my differentiator is that I use estimate testimonials to inform website copy, next month will probably be more of a deep dive into email. So you want to be clear about what is it you want to talk about? What water are you leading them to drink, right. So if there's a particular offer that you want to highlight, amplify, then you have to be really clear on setting up the story so that you bring them to call to action for if you are interested in XYZ, here's a book a discovery call, or for some people is a strip or join my mastermind, if you want to get on the waitlist, go here, if you need this, go here. So be really clear about what it is you want to sell what value you want to bring people in that conversation and never forgot to bring them somewhere.

I think that's really important because, you know, sales is service, right? And I think we do people a disservice if we teach them or show them this. And then we don't tell them what the next step is, right? They're like, Well, wait a second, what do I do now? Like they want to know the next day. So you're really doing them a disservice if you don't do that. But at the same time, it's really like how you do it. So I know for me, there's like a couple of things that will immediately kind of turn me off right. Now when you said that part about fellow inmates now your tribe knows that that we would expect that from you. I did and I chuckle every single time. Right. On the same token, when people send me an email and say something like, Hey, rock star or something like that, that does not sit well with me because I know they're really not talking to me. Like I don't really like hey, anything like that would not be something that I would do. So I feel like that you'd be like way

About Hey, boss, babe. Oh, yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, me either. But yeah, but we're a different archetype. Right. Right.

And so I think, again, if that was your tribe, and that was what they would expect when they're talking to you. I think that is okay. But I don't think there's a one size fits all. for that. I just want my name to be in it. Like you're personalizing it to me and say, Patty, like really, honestly. And then the other thing that I really liked nowadays, and I know only certain CRMs do it, but I like it. If I think if somebody is doing like some type of affiliate marketing, Oh, yeah. One of the things that really gets me is when you sign up for this person's newsletter, and this is what they do. Like there's somebody right now that literally talks about this one thing, and all of a sudden, I guess she's decided to go into affiliate marketing and they are like hammering Yes, with emails that aren't even about anything she does. They're somebody else's stuff right? Now first of all, I kind of feel like you didn't get my permission for that. I didn't sign him for that. But she did do one particular thing that I loved. She actually had an unsubscribe at the bottom that said if you would like to stay on my list, but you don't want to hear about this, yes, unsubscribe from that and I really like that I feel like with that you are giving me the options and I love that although I don't like I said I don't know if all CRMs will do it. But I do think that is really great. And I will say that the fastest way for me to unsubscribe is for you not to deliver what I signed up for hearing about other People's programs. I don't have a problem with that. I mean, it says in the email, you tell me the how. Right Why, like, you know, oh, you know, I know when I do this and you love that, and this person, I love what they're doing. And you can do that. But clearly when it is obvious that this is swipe copy, especially if I've already got 25 other of them that are exactly the same Birgit like, and like that is a really with unsubscribe from I turned my sins them in my mind too.

And I've started doing that too, because I have the weekly newsletter. But then if I have, let's say, have a flash sale going on, right? I want to let my entire list No, because in my case, the way my list is segmented, I could actually get referrals to people who I have identified as like simply fans, but they'll they'll forward my email to somebody and say, Hey, you said he will look a bit such as as Judi does this, right? But I also give them the option like, hey, I really value being in your inbox. If you know that this is not the not your jam, you can unsubscribe simply from you know, a promotion, but still get the newsletter. Because I felt the same way. I was like, You know what I want to be able to, you know, have these flash sales or these, you know, periodic things. I don't want people to feel spammed,

Well, it's kind of like when people are doing a launch, you know, sometimes I've had it where people in email, and a lot of times, it's just keeping them informed right now, you know, I've had people say to me, like, maybe their CRM didn't do that, or they didn't know. And they have said to me, you know, when we're in the middle of launching a book, so I'm just going to tell you right now, please bear with me, you're probably going to get a little bit more emails than normal while I'm launching. But it's only going to be for like a week, right? And then when we back to our regular scheduled or, you know, and then I'm like, oh, okay, that's cool. Thank you for letting me know that upfront. So that way, I didn't unsubscribe, because you told me that upfront, but then all of a sudden, you know, so I feel like with email, it is about in a way I feel. It's about manners. It's like, how would you treat people, when you're at your house, you wouldn't like invite somebody over and say, hey, you know, I'd like you and your husband to come over. And then all of a sudden, there's all these other people that are over there that always?

Or I always say because you were always answering the question or emails, what's in it? For me? Like for the reader? We're always answering that question for them. What's in it for me? What's in it for me? What's in it for me, and if we're, you know, bombarding them with all this extraneous stuff, is to use your metaphors like inviting someone to your house for a cup of coffee, and then either find out this 27 other people there, or they totally dominate the conversation with you know, everything from, you know, their grocery list to their argument with their mother in law last night to their latest I appointment all this and like, nothing already, like a new like, I feel like I'm being you know, held captive here. How can I say, but an email, you can't escape because you can unsubscribe, but what you want to be doing, right, you want to make sure you're that's why I tell people pick a theme for the month, stick to you know, a particular service. And I like what you say to but if there's a launch in the middle of it, like, Hey, you're gonna get some other emails from me. And sometimes I joke with the email entry is like, how can you miss me if I won't go away, right, like the great old country song. I said, I promise, the end is near like I make, I'll make a joke about it. But they also have the option. You know, you don't want to be part of doing any more emails in this particular series, just click here. And I use ConvertKit ConvertKit, for my email newsletters and stuff. So I know we have the capability to do that there. One of the thing that I saw recently in someone's email was they you open it up, it has a line at the top. So if someone forwarded you this email, you can subscribe here. And I liked that for two reasons it then it's a really nice way for someone who's got the forwarded email to click and join the list, right? But also inspires people who are being like, oh, yeah, I never thought I could forward this to somebody and kind of puts in the back of their head. Hey, next time I see something that's relevant to like my best friend, my sister, my brother in law, my neighbor, whatever, oh, yeah, I could just go with this. And then if they find value, then they can join the list too.

And I think it's a very easy non assuming, you know, not scary way to share. Right, you know, and I do like that as well. I also, really, one of the things I noticed and I realized it probably is because I'm in marketing, but I really pay attention to what people say about how to unsubscribe, right you know, I mean, I do. I really, I really love it when people say something like, I keep my unsubscribe at the top. I know a lot of people like to do it at the bottom, I like to do it at the top and remind them why they did it. Right. You know what I mean? I love to be able to say, you know, I honor the time that we are spending it. And I really feel like that is really important. I want them to know that I genuinely care. Because you're right, I have a very, very large list. And I think it's because I take care of them. Money. Also, it costs me money having people on my list because actually aren't interested in getting it, you know, hate connect with me on social media, and you will opt out like I'm okay with that. And

It's trying to just mention point that I want to share with the listeners is that every once in a while, it helps to remind people who you are, why are on your list why they're on your list, like, I got an email this morning. And I honestly can't remember how I got on this list. I'm not suggesting I was added without consent at all. I'm like, Who is this person? What are they doing? And so two things could be going on there. They're not telling me what they're doing what they're selling? What the valuers they're not leading me to any water. Right? Or they're not emailing frequently enough?

No, no, you're right. I think that is important. And that's why I think we should also tell people that you know, like, my absolute favorite email that I get every week is also on Tuesday. And I know that she only does it on Tuesday. And I actually look forward to in the morning, I know that on Tuesday, I'm going to get it and I like it, I read it, it's very short, it tells a great story always has a great image in it. And she always ties it back to something in business. I love it, I actually keep them. I have a folder list on the site in my email. And when people do that, great, I do it. But then again, you have to know that in business, a lot of us sign up for things because we liked the way they do it or we liked their fungal or we liked their verbiage for a lot of reasons whether we were going to buy from them or not, there is something once the need or the reason why we did it is no longer there than we're not going to keep you know, yeah,

There are the copywriters that I follow, you know, and Marie Forleo is one of them. Like I've followed her for a long time, on and off. I've decided, okay, you know what, I think I'm okay with this one. And then she comes up with a new offer, or a new way of talking about things to make, oh, I'm gonna get back on let's see what this is all about and get, I always learn something from pirates. Maharaj, from Lloyd Bell,

And again, it's like what you're saying to real estate? The good thing about that, is that people know where to find you. And if they know where to find you. They're like, Oh, wow, that's really interesting. What else could she be saying? Like, you might see that on social and you're like, oh, wow, I might want to know that. So because you know that, you know, just go to their website and sign back up for their newsletter, so you can find out about it again. So I think that that is a good thing. Some people take it really personal when people unsubscribe from them, you know, I'm gonna pay attention to who unsubscribe to me, I don't even look.

I mean, what I was saying was semonin subscribes to my list. Merry Christmas. To me, there's one person who's not aligned with me anymore. And that's okay. You know, I may not be everyone's cup of tea, I mean, it'd be a glass of water, it's fine. I just, I want to connect to people who want to be in connection. And if what I'm giving you is not a value, then that's okay. But I will say on the flip side of that I did have reached out to me recently. I'm not even in business for myself anymore. But I get your emails, I can't quit your list.

So okay to write a lot of reasons you

You share. And I said, that's totally fine. I said, I have a lot of family members on the list. They're never going to buy something from me, but they like to hear the stories because it's a way to keep in touch with me what's going on in my life? Yeah, gee,

I also believe that I always want to know what to do. But I always like knowing what I shouldn't do to like, you know, like, what are the things that I shouldn't do? And sometimes, you know, kind of like the do nots can sometimes be really important. So let's kind of bust some myths here. Like, let's play with buster. And let's bus on this, what are some of the biggest like mistakes that people aren't making that they probably think are working? I'm not talking about the out and out ones about people who just don't care, like nope, I'm just gonna get my get my last just a numbers game. I'm not talking about that. About the people who genuinely believe that what they're doing is while they may not know what's working, if it's not working right, or whatever, you should really think about what are some of the myths that people believe that as an expert, we can just bust those myths Right now

About I have to say, it's a long game. And you know, just in the way that you know you didn't meet your, your partner and in five minutes, want to be with them. We've all heard those great love stories like probably is one of them, right? But for the large for the majority of it, right? It's like friendships like sometimes friendships take one to a time to cultivate a relationship generally takes time to cultivate, right? You can't send out an email, I think everyone on the wall is gonna start buying stuff from you buy it, you have to continue to be in conversation. It's the equivalent of bringing your business card to a networking meeting, going on the counter going somewhere else, and being upset that people aren't contacting you. If you're not a

Whole nother show about that, Judi, we really really could but I totally get what you're saying though. I feel like it is a long game long baby

How to be committed to it. Right. So that as politely as for do knots on this speak about holidays. Okay, so there are a lot of people feel like every single holiday, they have to say something in an email, right. So like,

Particulates describe a lot during a holiday season.

I find myself too. So I feel like if you personally, my favorite holiday of the whole year is Thanksgiving. And I celebrate in a secular way. I'm very much like this the day to be grateful for you have count your blessings, and have a good meal. Because as I like to say, I'm the girl who doesn't miss a meal, so we can have a holiday. Food. Sign me up. Right? When it comes to the winter holidays like Christmas, Hanukkah, all that kind of stuff. I will I wait every I mean, there's a lot of holiday. I mean, it's there's something something, show me a stat that was like, there's like 40 different holidays between November and December and all sorts of different cultures, right? But it feels disingenuous to me to start jumping on a holiday that I'm not personally connected to now in my house, in my family, we celebrate Christmas, but for a long time because and I get to this in the book, you know the story of my old my older daughter when she was small became very enamored with Hanukkah. So we adopted that into our repertoire of holidays, right. So I pay homage to Hanukkah, and I pay homage to Christmas. And but more often than not, I wish people a happy new year because that feels more on line for me. I'm also very grateful for our veterans. I usually send us something alongside that. But like I'm not like jumping on every single holiday. Like I didn't.

Not only that, but you don't know what the person who's receiving that email isn't they feeling about that too? I don't like it when people use a holiday as an excuse to try to sell me something. Oh, I'm having a like, I don't know about you. But the solar eclipse I can't even tell you how many emails I got about.

I'm so glad it's over. I'm glad we won't see another one in our lifetime.

That's another reason to have a flash sale like that in itself. If your product or service. It's good before it is good after it that day didn't really need to do anything. We didn't be painting any of that.

But now but that's the kind of thing like it has to be aligned has to be genuine. I am not actually a huge fan of Mother's Day. Like I feel like why do we have to have this one day of the year to talk about moms. I call it Freud's day off, but the rest of the year

My mom has passed away and so I find that for me. I know I kind of shy away from that a little bit more oil in it. My kids do things and I love it but it oh my god because I don't have my mom anymore. So I do feel like people should put a little bit more thought into something that does really work for me though. There's this girl, there's this girl I know. And she's been sending this. I don't know I want to say it's probably the longest sequence I have ever seen that it's so riveting. I just can't get past it. But she basically has picked a girl her the girl's name is Maya. She actually showed us a picture. So I'm assuming it's a real person. I'm Maya and she's been telling us my story and every week for probably I gotta tell you at least eight or 10 weeks down. She literally tells us this story of her marketing, right you know this girl's in marketing and she'll tell us like the whole story of what she's doing through her whole thing. Like I'm so like, I can't stop doing it because the journey is so good. And I think she told us this week, that next week, she's gonna wrap it up. I think this one was a little bit longer, but I was riveted because of what business they were in. But I think that can sometimes be a good thing when you're telling the story about how you can help people giving people like a little little bit and then a little bit and then a little bit, actually, they kind of get just, they kind of we get enamored with the story, and we want to add a school story. So I think that can be a really good thing as well, wherever you may think that just writing, you know, five paragraphs and this big long thing, then I'm going to do it then. But I don't think that actually really is it.

Exit essence is like an exception that proves the rule, right, is that you don't want it to be too long. But sometimes a well placed, long sequence can can really deliver the goods and it sounds like it's so memorable. Right,

Exactly. So, Judi I love the conversation, I love your value that you seem to open up people's mind into like, oh, I hadn't really thought of that. And this is kind of the part of the show. I always like to say this is kind of like my version of an open mic. What do you share with everybody have you had to narrow down this is the marketing medium money show. If you had to narrow down what would be the number one, marketing and media and money strategy. So if you had to narrow it down, and I know you've given us so much. But if you had to narrow it down to one strategy,

We've talked, we've touched upon a lot of things, right. But really, I think the thing that gets looked over the most overlooked the most as I'm trying to say, sorry, I'm probably not quite caffeinated is, if you're not engaging with your email list, you are really leaving money on the table. And I think people get very distracted by social, because it's like being everywhere, all at once to all the people. But here's the thing, if you're trying to speak to everybody, you're speaking to no one, when you're speaking to your list, you're speaking to the already converted in some small way, they joined your list because you invited them from a networking meeting, or they went to your website and downloaded your freebie. Or they saw a social media post something that you said that resonated for them, and they want to learn more about you and you had a good call to action that brought them to that water for them to drain. Right? You really curating an audience of people who are your, in many cases are your client avatar, but also people who can be your cheerleaders with other people, like when we talked earlier about, you know, the idea of having if you'd like if this email were forwarded to you, and you'd like to subscribe, click here is that very gentle and indirect reminder to the reader say, oh, yeah, I could board this to a couple friends today. You know,

I think that's important. And there's always so many options. So I really love that. So thank you so much. And, yes, I appreciate that you actually came bearing a gift too. So you have a little bit of a gift for everybody button below that they can just look below to grab it, but tell them a little bit about it.

So it's called a six Hot Tips for emails storytelling, and I give an overall bird's eye view what my particular cadence is, and some of my successes in developing good email, stories that to share with my list and keep people engaged and keep people working with me.

That is beautiful. And I think that's what people really want to see. So. So Judi, if we had one place where you would want people to go to connect with you, where would that one place be?

At one place would be my website, judi411.com J UD I 4 1 1 .com All the form on one for writing for your business that you didn't know you need it. Oh, I love that.

That is beautiful. So thank you so much, Judi, for being here with me today. I appreciate it. Thank you to the audience for being here with me as well. And if you enjoy today's episode, and I'm sure that you did, please like, subscribe and review the podcast on your favorite listening platform. We'll see you again next week. Thank you so much for joining us. Bye for now.