Joining Mark Taylor as part of this series with Prof Dr Ger Graus OBE is Rebecca Durose-Croft a Managing Director with over 20 years’ experience in educational publishing and the evolving world of edtech.

Rebecca has built a reputation for bringing together editorial expertise, strategic thinking and a deep understanding of how learners engage with content - leading teams to create high-quality publications and programmes that truly make a difference.

With a strong commitment to inclusion and accessibility, and a track record of working closely with educators, policymakers and partners across the sector, Rebecca is a thoughtful and influential voice in how education continues to adapt and innovate.

Takeaways:

1. We discusses the evolving nature of educational content and its impact on schooling.
2. Rebecca Durose-Croft emphasizes the importance of tailoring educational material to individual learners' needs.
3. National curriculum reforms prompt a reevaluation of educational practices and content delivery methods.
4. The conversation highlights the necessity of incorporating real-world applications into learning experiences.
5. Technology plays a crucial role in modern education, but it must be integrated thoughtfully to enhance learning.
6. Collaboration between educators and content creators is essential for producing effective educational resources.

Chapters:

1. 00:15 - Introducing Rebecca Durose-Croft
2. 01:58 - Exploring New Educational Curriculums
3. 16:16 - The Importance of Context in Language Learning
4. 23:27 - The Role of Technology in Modern Education
5. 31:20 - The Evolution of Educational Technology
6. 45:06 - The Role of Educators in Curriculum Development
7. 51:49 - The Importance of Trusting Teachers in Education

https://www.besa.org.uk/

https://www.gergraus.com

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Hello and welcome back to the Education on Far podcast.

In this, the ninth episode of the Ger Graus Gets Gritty series, we focus on the future of schooling and most importantly, the content that's used within it. The what, the how, the why in terms of creation, delivery, and also quality.

Now, to help us with this, we're delighted to welcome Rebecca Durose-Croft and she's a managing director.

With over 20 years experience in educational publishing and the evolving world of edtech, Rebecca has built a reputation for bringing together editorial expertise, strategic thinking, and a deep understanding of how learners engage with content, leading teams to create high quality publications and programs that truly make a difference.

Now, with a strong commitment to inclusion in accessibility and a track record in working closely with educators, policy makers and partners across the sector, Rebecca is a thoughtful and influential voice in how education continues to adapt and innovate. Hello, my name is Mark Taylor and welcome to the Education on Far podcast, The place for creative and inspiring learning from around the world.

Listen to teachers, parents and mentors share how they are supporting children to live their best, authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all. Hi, Rebecca and Ger, thank you so much for joining us here today.

We're going to be talking about schooling and when Gary and I first talked about this, it's like, well, where do we start, where do we finish? What's going to happen in the middle?

But this is going to be sort of focusing on that idea of content, how it did look, how it's going to look, the idea of who's producing it and how it's going to work. So yeah, Rebecca, Ger, thank you both for being here.

And Ger, why don't you sort of set that scene sort of based on those sort of conversations that we started with?

Yeah, thanks, Mark and Rebecca, we'll come to you in a minute.

Like always, Rebecca and I catch up fairly regularly on things and some of the things that we've been discussing and will allude to that today has been the introduction of a new national.

New a revised national curriculum in England, but at the same time also keeping an eye on what's going on elsewhere, like the new education plan in India and some of the developments that I'm aware of that are happening in the Middle East. Not least, of course, we need to talk about technology.

But the whole thing that fascinates me about the schooling aspect of it is that very simple thing that Mark and I have talked about quite a lot, which is about. So actually is schooling about learning or is it about being Taught is it about understanding or is it about knowledge and content?

And it feels certainly at the moment that the schooling thing is about. There's a government that decides what children should be taught. Schools are the means of achieving that.

And national testing league tables and the Office for Standards in Schooling, as it should be called, is a means of assuring that the government agenda is being delivered by hook or by crook. And the Office for Standards in Schooling is of course the crook. Absolutely. Now it's very odd because actually you could do two things.

You could have a whole discussion around that without mentioning the word child wants, which seems to me not to be right. And, and the other thing is nobody is actually really part of that thinking, that wider thinking.

And I think that what and how and why our children go to school should be part of an ongoing national debate that that should include all stakeholders, shareholders, whatever we want to call that. So after that depressing scene, scene setting, I think I started to focus on the children and on the learning really.

And, and Rebecca, it's so good to see you.

Rebecca And I, I'll try to explain in a little bit how we met because there's one of the things of 18 months of cancer and recovery is that my, my memory is, is not what it was. So what I will say is I met Rebecca quite a while ago. She was instrumental in publishing what essentially became my professional autobiography.

Because I've never written like that before, I was convinced that I was not capable of doing so.

And she kind of with Rebecca's help and recordings, endless hours of recordings and transcribing those recordings which then formed the baseline for writing, which was an interesting process because one, I enjoyed that process and secondly, it also put ideas into my mind how we could get children involved in creating content and perhaps more of that a little bit later. But Rebecca, shall we start by. If I start by asking the question, who are you?

Absolutely. Yeah. Well, first of all, I can absolutely remind you how it came about, our friendship care. But thank you for having me here today.

Really nice to be here to talk about content creation and how we can move forward with the revised, as you say, curriculum in a way which works hopefully for every teacher and for every learner. So a quick bit about me then.

So I've worked in educational publishing and ed tech for almost 20 years largely on content creation for curriculum aligned content for big publishers, you would know, oup, Pearson, Park, Collins, et cetera. And that kind of material that I've been producing over the 20 years is very much, as you said, gare that top down approach, it's how does.

It's creating content which aligns to a curriculum which has been formed by a government which then filters down into schools. It's changed a lot over the last 20 years.

I would say it was absolutely revolutionary if there was a CD ROM in the inside cover of a book when I first started working. So it's been, it's been up and down, good, good times, bad times. But I can say that off the back of your, as you put it, quite depressing opener.

I can see good times coming. When it comes to content creation. I do think we're thinking a lot more about individual, the individual child in, in education publishing.

We're thinking a lot more about sen, a lot more DEI and a lot more accessibility and equity in general. That said, there's still a very heavy top down approach when it comes to educational publishing.

And I think some of the things you and I have talked about over the past couple of years are things that are now starting to be seen in the industry and in the market and hopefully we'll see more of that bespoke content creation coming through as we move into this revised curriculum.

Perfect. How did we meet?

So about five years ago.

And you were just starting to think about writing your book and at that point I think you found me based on my background and we said, you have a conversation. And we just started like this, I think, I don't know, hundreds of hundreds of meetings and hours later we managed to produce your book.

And I think we've stayed friends just because of these lovely conversations we have and how aligned we are when it comes to teaching and schooling.

Thank you, Lee. Thanks for the reminder.

The other thing I just wanted to ask you about, a couple of weeks ago we were at an event in London that you chaired because you work closely on the curriculum front with the British Education Suppliers Association. I think it is Visa. Do you want to say a bit more about that?

Yeah, of course, yeah, so, yeah, that was a. So, yes, you're right. So I chaired the VISA curriculum event.

So this happens every year and obviously with the announcement of the review coming out and the announcement of the reviewed curriculum, this year was quite a huge event actually. So my role within Visa is. I'm actually vice chair of the Special Interest Group for Curriculum. Dawn. Our chair is wonderful.

Dawn Hallibone from Tusimple. She's fantastic. We work together to produce bimonthly meetings for everybody who's within that SIG at Visa.

And really what we're doing is giving as many updates as we can, not only on the curriculum itself, because obviously this is the first time really we're working through a reform together as part of that group. But we're connecting people, we're connecting education publishers with teachers, we're connecting edtech providers with teachers.

And what we're doing is just keeping a conversation going between lots of us in the industry who are interested in not only making sure content aligns with curriculum, but making sure, you know, is it right for the teachers, is it doing what it needs to do and then thinking about any challenges that we're having within the classroom. So that might be, you know, is there enough. Are there enough resources out there for sen, what's the provision like for.

For children with sen, et cetera? So we tend to pick topics throughout the year that we really hone in on. We invite head teachers, heads of years to come and discuss.

But it's a great, as we pointed out at the curriculum conference, it's a great opportunity to pull people together because the educational, you know, the Educational Suppliers association, that can pull people together from, you know, from my background, your background, even down to furniture designers who are, you know, designing classrooms to work within today's world. So it's a fantastic space for us all to pull together and to talk about any challenges and opportunities we might have.

It was a very interesting experience for me to be there because perhaps stereotypically and cynically and naively on my part sometimes I think when you go to those suppliers events, that when it comes to discussions, that the first part of the discussion is making a profit.

Oh, right, yeah, yeah.

And so.

So, so I was hugely encouraged and pleasantly surprised that actually most of the questions and almost all of that debate never touched on, but was very much about doing the right, doing the right thing was very much about quality, it was very much about appropriateness to the individual youngsters. And that for me, that's the way to go, because at the end of the day, it's.

For me, it's always been the case, going back to my days at Kidzania and before that, if it's good enough, they will come. Right? So it has to fit always around the quality. And also as a thinking back from that meeting when.

So when I was a languages teacher, teacher of German, working in the languages department in, In Norwich many, many years ago, and then. And Then later in Hull and then as advisor in, in, in Manchester. The relationship with publishers was very one sided.

Right?

You will know these things by that time and then we'll test you.

So what the publishers did is they produced books that ticked all those boxes that were in that list against appropriate age groups or abilities, whichever criteria were applied. And, and then we bought the books and then you got used to the books, so you bought more of the books.

So Deutsch Heute, which was my, my textbook became Deutsch Heuter 2 and Deutsch Heuter 3. And just like in French, it was tricolor and tricolor one and tricolor two and, and, and whatever. And, and it almost became habitual.

You just, that's what you did.

And if you had a bit of money left over, you bought an additional supply so that, that you could replace some of the ones that, some of the books that looked a bit tired. And actually there never was a discussion that said after a couple of years, is that book still relevant because you'd invest it.

So I would say that that relationship was one sided. The publishers would probably say, oh no, at the time of writing this, we engaged with some teachers.

I just think we are now in the world with social media and technology access whereby we could almost make content creation a democratic participation. Right?

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, just going back to your point about bisa, you're absolutely right.

Everybody in that room, when we were there that day, everybody really cares. I think there's also, everybody sees a real sense of responsibility, particularly with the review coming and the change to the curriculum coming.

This is really a time for us all to pull together and do the best for our teachers and learners across the country. So absolutely, it was a wonderful day. And it's much less about selling as it is about having those conversations and getting on the same page.

Going back to your point about those textbooks, my goodness, like that's exactly how it was and how it still is in some, in some publishers, you know, you, you look at a framework and you can literally write the contents list from the framework and that's how you work through it. That's your textbook.

And as you say, that then isn't a conversation of, you know, the world has moved on and our, our kids have moved on, but how's, how are the materials that we're producing to them.

And I think your point around democratic content creation and around actually listening to and engaging with the teachers is a, is a, is a fantastic one. Because it's very naive of us to think that across the country one textbook is going to serve all teachers and learners. It just isn't.

It's not going to, you know, we talk at length about engagement, about engaging learners. That's not going to land. You know, one, one textbook for, you know, an array of different children is not going to land.

And I think actually putting the teachers at the front of that content creation saying actually what works for my class and my learners is X is, is the way forward. I feel like we've forgotten that there are different types of learning and different types of learners. You know, we, we have this one size fits all.

We are moving away from it, you know, we really are. But in some, in some publishers and in some schools, it is still very much a. This is what we're going to teach. Teach today.

And if it lands with you, great. And if it doesn't, that's kind of unfortunate, you know.

So I think if we can get to a point where we are democratizing content and we are asking teachers to feed into that in some sort of way, then we are on a better path to making sure that we're actually doing the best thing for every child, not just those that that traditional way of teaching and learning fits with.

It also strikes me if I, if I look at my, so my, my youngest daughter, I'll stay within the field of languages because I'm language learning. I'm quite, I'm reasonably comfortable in that, in that part. But my, my youngest daughter is now at university and she's studying Spanish and Italian.

So chippity old block really, in many ways, except that she's much better at it than I was, I think. And.

But what, what is what I observed from her, not just at university, but was observing during her A levels and during her GCSes, was that what mattered to her, not necessarily to the school and certainly not to the publishers, was that that the how and connected to that, the why of learning in purpose and motivational terms was at least as important as the what I would say probably more important. And so how did she learn? Quite early on, with the school's help, we found her an old money. It was called the pen friend.

It should probably be called an Instagram friend Now or a WhatsApp friend or whatever. And we did it.

We spend a bit of time doing that, so that we aligned them in terms of initially their interest and that and their age and whatever else. And so she found a wonderful mate, Eva, in, in. In Madrid.

And all those years later, Eva's going to come to visit us in the summer and, and, and Imogens going out to visit Eva again. But the point being was that the, that friendship became the reason for learning the language and for being keen on the language.

Not the main, not the only reason, but. But a very important one. And how the learning took place was WhatsApp and is WhatsApp and Instagram and.

And all those bits and pieces and sharing posts from Facebook or TikTok or wherever these youngsters find themselves. Yet in our content creation, the schools, we ignore that reality. One, I suspect because it's difficult. Secondly, because it's tricky.

Thirdly, because we are in this country still in a debate whether we want to allow the use of mobile, the hood. It's. I mean, I, I find this so difficult to come to terms with that, that we've got this thing, if you think about it, right?

So these youngsters are going to school on a bus or in a car or by foot or whatever else.

They're on their phone, they're in touch with their mates, they might even be finishing off, last bit, the homework that they really should have done the night before, right? All those bits and pieces are ongoing. That is what their life is like.

Then they turn up at School at 9 o' clock in the morning and somebody goes, turn it off or give it us here.

Absolutely.

And then we're wondering, so we disconnect these children from the life that they're leading and the life that in many ways they want. And then we're wondering why they get turned off and why they don't understand what they're doing in school. So what are we going to do about this?

What, what, what will that content will. Will we be as content creators, will you. We be courageous enough to tackle this? Or how. How is that going to work?

Yeah, is. I mean, the mobile, the smartphone conversation is a huge one, it really is.

So I'll say I'll part that bit over here at the moment, but your first point about the how, the why, you know, that that's huge.

And I see that exactly with my 8 year old, you know, she's only in year three and unless she understands why she's doing something and can, and that can be explained to her in a way that she actually sees as acceptable, then she won't do it.

You know, I think we, we are really missing a trick there, and I know you and I have spoken about this before is I also think we need to be linking subjects and content to real world scenarios and real world jobs and how this is used in real life. You know, I think I've said to you before, my husband is a furniture designer. Furniture maker, Furniture designer, maker.

My daughter in her head sees Daddy chopping wood, hammering nails in a workshop. That's daddy's job. The other day she saw him using a protractor and went over and said, what? Why are you using it? Why are you doing maths?

And she, he explained, I do maths every day, have to measure angles, I have to do this.

It blew her mind because in her world, Daddy's got an amazing job where he just plays with wood all day, you know, and she connected doing maths to having a practical job and it was a light bulb moment for her. Absolute light bulb moment. So I think there's two things we absolutely need to marry, the how and the why.

To engage our, our learners, we also have to give context to what they're doing. So it doesn't. Maths isn't just a sheet of paper with 10 sums in front of them.

And I have to do it because, you know, when you say, and again, we talked about this at length. Why did you do that?

Because the teacher asked me to, you know, not because, oh, if I learn to do this sum, then I can add this up and take this up and know how much pocket money I've got.

The context is completely missing, which is, you know, is, is a shame and it's actually quite dangerous because we're not preparing learners for when they're leaving school and thinking about how to use everything we give them over the amount of years we do. How are they going to apply that to their real life moving forward? And fair enough.

You know, there are things coming in the review, you know, I know we're looking at financial literacy, digital literacy. There are things where we're looking and saying, this is tax and you will have to pay this and this is how you work it out.

But I think we do all those things far too late. You know, we, we should be thinking about it from a much earlier age. So it's not, you know, this is something that's embedded in, in their lives.

How is what I'm learning at school going to support me in my life as I'm, you know, while I'm a child, but also when I leave school into adulthood? So I think we can absolutely, as content creators, have that as almost a foundation for everything else.

You know, the framework we have to align to the curriculum.

That's just, we have to do that, but it doesn't mean that, that we can't springboard off that to do things that are more bespoke, engaging, contextual can be applied. You know, that's all there for the offing. It's just, we're just not doing it. The mobile smartphone debate is a huge one. I absolutely agree.

What we're asking children to do is shut their lives off at the door and have it back at the end of the day. And I think there's a danger there that they're going to turn off, like they're just going to switch off and not engage with what they're doing.

I think there's also, you know, this used to see your dad or your grandfather as someone you couldn't connect with or engage with because they don't understand your world. That's a real danger. When we're looking at secondary school as well.

We want our learners to come into school feeling connected to their teachers, feeling they can talk with them, share things with them.

And I worry that this huge disconnect that that's my main worry actually outside the learning, is that it's going to make your teacher feel like someone you just can't relate to, you know, and that's not where we want to be going with that.

I agree. And I think that on the mobile phone thing, I mean, that could be an entire episode on its own, couldn't it?

But, but I do, I do sense that we're looking at this. Maybe we're not courageous enough, but we're looking at this in the wrong way for the, but not necessarily the right reasons.

It feels to me that the mobile phone issue is a, is predominantly a behavior control concern.

Oh, absolutely, yeah.

And, and the good that it could do in learning terms actually doesn't come into it. I'm sure there'll be people going, oh, and there are safeguarding issues. And, yeah, there are safeguarding issues.

And I think anybody who in their right mind doesn't think that safeguarding is important, shouldn't be anywhere near kids. Right. I almost take that as of course.

But I do think that obsession with behavior control versus the lack of obsession almost in terms of what it could offer, in terms of the how, the why and the content. I think we've got that wrong.

And I think that's a discussion that perhaps we need to have creatively with the teaching profession and perhaps we need to bring into how cool would it be if actually resources were being produced in the light of the new national curriculum, that where in old money now, where in a book there is a reference that says, and now with your parents, go and visit so and so, go to a museum, go to a gallery, do this, go to a park, investigate plants in May in a park, wherever you live, look these things up on your phone so that we reference the knowledge content into experiences which leads to understanding. I don't think we've been very good at that.

And I certainly think looking back at my experience, the whole thing about learning outside the classroom, the children's university, Kidsania, all those kind of things, I've often said I would love it if particularly primary schools set once a week, set a family homework. That family homework could be, you all need to watch David Attenborough together on the telly.

Or it could be go to a park somewhere in May or whatever else and your homework is not complete until you send us a photograph of your mum and dad or your grandparents or whoever it is doing this with you so that it becomes a family activity. I think we need to. If we don't do this and if all that this national curriculum review will do, it's produced an updated list.

Yes, we, we ought to hang our head and share.

Yeah, I completely agree and I think, yeah, I, I'm not trying not to go down too much of rabbit hole with the mobile phone thing because I know as you say, it could be.

It could be an episode in itself, but I think actually what we're doing by not engaging with smartphones in the classroom or for homework is we're actually saying to children, all you can do, or to students, all you can do on your mobile phone is Go on Instagram WhatsApp, your friend. You know, that's all, that's all it is. You can go, you can browse the Internet, but actually they can do so much more.

And I think we're not giving them, we're not equipping them with the tools to use technology in a. In a way that can better than at school. Can make them think about how they're moving into their careers.

As you say, we could be using smartphones in the classroom as a 10 minute exercise at the end of a lesson. Okay, now go off your friend, record this. Say if you're doing languages, record each other speaking in this.

You know, go film something outside, take a photo of this. You know, I just feel like we're, you know, we could have live data, they could be answering questions. It could be, we could be.

There's so much we could be doing if we engage with it. And actually what we're doing is we're reducing their smartphone down to social media and down to messaging them out.

That's kind of what we're reducing it down to. And it could be used for so much more. So I agree with you.

I think if we were to just essentially update the list, update the framework, we are, we're kind of failing today's students and learners and teachers actually, because there's so much more we could be doing with what's at our fingertips.

Yeah, totally.

And I'm just, again, I'm thinking as the linguist, you know, WhatsApp groups with, with, with youngsters in Germany or France or Spain or whatever language we engage with. But also that thing that then comes naturally and that we need to encourage this.

So all of a sudden what happens between my daughter and her friend when they were much younger than they are now is they were sending each other links to the music that they were listening. So all of a sudden my daughter's listening to Spanish and I'm going, what's this you're listening to? And so they create their own learning processes.

And I would say because of the existence of the technology, if they'd had to do that by postcard or by letter, none of that would have happened. It is the instant access that they're so used to that we're denying in this.

I think, you know, my question to you in terms of your overview, globally, really, and you said earlier that you are optimistic. Give us some examples where in terms of content creation, where you think that's the way, if you wish, without naming names.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that lies with, you know, we know our big publishers in the UK and beyond, we know who they are.

They're the kind of classic textbook publishers who've been going, you know, centuries, some of them, but you know, we can't always rely on them to be the first ones to think outside the box.

So really I'm looking at the smaller publishers, bespoke publishers, and Smaller edtech companies who are really thinking about how can they differentiate themselves because they can't compete against these long standing education publishers and you know, the longevity and the loyalty that they have with their customers. So how can we pivot and do something different?

So there are some fantastic ed tech companies out there that are doing some really interesting and innovative things.

One example would be a company who are really using AI to do what I would call kind of the technical mechanical work, which is mapping content to curriculum framework points.

So they're really, they're aligning it to those, to those pathways and ensuring that their content really hits that framework and teaches the student everything they need to know to pass their exams or to move on to the next stage, depending where in the world you are. But what they're also doing is they're using AI. So they're using AI to, as a real driver for the content creation.

And what they're using AI for is to really make it bespoke for the child.

So in these AI engines you can put in the age group of the child, you can put in their interests, you can put in even photos of them if you should wish, so that some of the content comes out and it's got pictures of them or their pets or whatever.

And I'm particularly thinking primary here, but what they're doing there is they're ensuring that box, those boxes are ticked so that list is there, but actually they're putting the, the content creation in the hands of the student or the teacher so they can drive this content creation.

They're making it bespoke to them, they're making it engaging and they're making it actually something that at the end of it they want to show other people and say, look, I've just done this.

So I'm thinking those ed tech providers are doing a similar providers doing a fantastic job in really making content bespoke, putting core content creation in the hands of the person who's going to be engaging with it and thinking more as the audience, as a, as a co creator rather than someone that just gets it at the end of the process. Because I think that's what we've always been in danger of doing, which is actually not really thinking about the end user.

Some people do that really well, some don't.

And I think what we're seeing in the edtech industry at the moment is, you know, post Covid we were flooded with ed tech companies, you know, absolutely flooded. And the bubble has burst, you know, to some extent.

And now what we're Seeing is those that are still here are the ones who've really differentiated themselves from other core publishing and they're saying let's do things differently.

So I am, when I'm looking at these smaller companies who are small for now, but I'm sure will grow when I see how they are not only engaging with AI and other technologies out there, but when I see how they're interacting and learning and researching as it. When it comes down to the individual needs of learners to today, you know, what did learners today and teachers today need? What do they engage with?

That's where I'm feeling positive because what I'm also seeing is on the teacher side of things, not just the learners, but we're actually saying let's kind of stop this narrative around.

Teachers are so tired, they need more time, they need everything done for them because they're, you know, they're inundated because what they're in index is in is, is admin, you know, and they don't want be. So let's kind of give teachers the power to be teachers again. You know, teachers are fantastic content creators, absolutely fantastic.

They know their, their class, they know their learners more than anybody. So some of these edtech companies as well are putting that in the hands of the teachers.

So similarly, as you know, we can get a child to create a reader for themselves. We can get teachers to say, okay, well what, what is it my class would engage with here? How would they engage with it as well?

Because the how is a very, you know, how in terms of what medium. So is this going to be digital? Is it really going to, is it going to be something I'm going to teach the front of the class?

Are we going to go outside and learn about it? I think all of that, it's not just resources, how we teach it as well, that all needs to be thought of. But I am positive.

But that for me, I'm a positive person. Positive but realistic, I'd say. But I am happy with how I've seen some of these newer ed tech companies look towards the future.

And some of those conversations are, I mean I will mention the name now, but. And you know them. I've been talking broadly really with a company that fascinated me called Picatel.

And actually almost all of the conversations I've had with them have been about the how and the why.

Absolutely.

And about tangible outcomes, as in making learning visible. And very little has been about the content.

And when the conversation has been about the content, it's been about making the content more Real and more relevant and more purposeful. So it's a very different conversation to the, in my, in my day to the Tricolor Deutsch Heute kind of conversations.

And I, I kind of quite like that concept of creating content, almost like, like a crowdfunding type of exercise, resource, resource creation in that way. But, but I also think, and that that was the bit that got me very excited about this particular conversation. Which was it?

I don't know, it's National Reading Week, just as an example. Right. And so you. Part of me thinks so what?

Because what is at the end of that is at the end of that that your 8 year old says I've read a book a day or is at the end of that something that says I've read a book a day and I've written my own. So, so that, so maybe National Reading Week needs to be followed by National Writing Week or whatever. Content creation.

And I saw that firsthand globally in the Kidzanias, where actually the tangible outcome, the production of the front page of a newspaper, the production of my own little newsreel.

And talking to those youngsters, the exciting bit was to get this as brilliantly as possible because I can take my tangible piece, my making learning visible, quote unquote, home to show my granddad.

Exactly. Yeah.

And, and I think we need to build on, on in a sense what the youngsters are telling us in terms of learning processes, et cetera, and, and desired outcome. And when you talk to, as I said, we did a company, and I'm sure there are many others, but a company in this case like Piccadille.

I came out of those meetings incredibly excited because I hadn't talked about the list at all.

Yes, yeah, I actually talked about, well, we talked about whether the list should be changed and extended because of the input of teachers on, of young people. And that was the bit where I thought, wow, so we can really, we can really go that way.

And.

Yeah, I mean that was just a bit where I thought this is amazing.

Exactly.

And I think that the point you make about getting to the end of, you know, the end of a project or whether that be reading or maths, whatever, and then having something tangible to hold on to and to show and to be proud of is actually really important.

And you know, like I said, I've worked in this industry 20 years, but nothing kind of opens your eyes like your own child going through the education system, you know, and, and talking to my daughter.

It's really interesting because they, you know, they, they do the classic they read a couple of chapters and they go on an iPad and they do a comprehension test. First of all, she completely disengages when she looks at an iPad. She's just like, what, you know, compared to completely disengages.

And actually as an eight year old said to me the day, what are they trying to teach Mini? Are they teaching me reading or are they teaching me iPad skills? And I thought that was quite interesting.

But actually the thing that she, she doesn't like about reading and then going on iPad is she said, I have nothing to show for it. Nothing to show for it. I read a book, I read a chapter, ask some comprehension questions and then what, you know.

So I think actually ensuring that, you know, this isn't just an isolated thing. We're working towards a bigger piece of work or bigger project or something you can take home.

And like you said, maybe that's something that leads into family homework or something like that.

I think we're not only, we kind of, as I said at the top of the, of the, of the podcast, you know, I think we are forgetting that there are different types of learners. We're kind of, we're either all digital or all, you know, we need to make sure we're getting that blend.

But I also think we just need to be thinking of how can we make what use what we've got and use the time now as we're moving into a review and an update, as you put it, how can we now think about really working with those individual learners to do what works for them? Maybe a project wouldn't work for some children. Maybe that's not really what they could do.

Maybe a project on the iPad would be good for them, but some children will be different. So I think we just need to, we talked about it before, think about the individual child and that's not always possible.

But I think with companies who are already, as you said, about safeguarding, that's a given. You know, if we say like, okay, align to the curriculum, that's a given. Now what can we do?

That's where our attention is focused, then that opens us up to do much better for our learners and our teachers.

The thing that disturbs me is something you said earlier, which is that some of the big beasts, as it were, are moving to entirely online, for example.

Oh, yeah. Entirely digital. Yeah.

So that's a commercial decision.

Absolutely.

It has absolutely nothing. It takes no recognition of different learning styles, even different teaching styles. Right. This is an entirely commercial decision.

And for that very reason, I hope that they Fail. Right, this, this is a little bit like saying, which would be inconceivable. Here's a restaurant. We take no account of anybody's taste.

You will, you will. Now, none of you will be vegans, none of you will be vegetarians. You'll all eat a cow and a half when you come to mine and you'll all like chips.

That's, I think, I think that's really sad. And, and what I do hope will not happen is that the big beasts will buy up the little newcomers and turn them into what they want.

I think there'll be some very interesting tensions in that publishing world around that.

Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see particularly as I said again at the top of the podcast around we've got, I think it's spring 27 when the review is out of the curriculum, so we'll really know.

We don't anticipate it's going to change massively from where it is now, but nobody's going to start spending money on new content creation until they really have that, you know, in the bag. And we know exactly what the, how it's going to change. And then it's for teaching September 28th.

So really, if we think that that is not a lot of time actually to, to really, you know, do our research and development, particularly on those new areas of, you know, as we touched on financial literacy, digital literacy, citizenship areas where there isn't really that much resource out there, you know, already.

And also things like oracy, you know, it's not a standalone subject but it is, it's threaded through, you know, so how there's so much we need to think about. So you've got this kind of what would have been maybe a 12 month R& D, you know, you know, window to do that.

That's, that's gone, you know, so we're going to see a lot of publishers being extremely reactive. Obviously digital are going to be first because, you know, we don't have those big long print times and we can reduce those schedules massively.

So Ed Tech are in the front anyway. But I think it's a worry that the, the rush, the rush is a worry to me from a, from a print site point of view, from a digital point of view.

I think it does give these, you know, the pigtails of the world that we spoke about.

Yeah, it does put them as front runners in terms of producing something owing teachers and learners what's out there and getting it out there before the big beasts come, you know, following. So there Is that kind of opportunity as well to show teachers and learners this is what, this is how we could do it.

You know, this is how we could do it before we, you know, all the programs and all the kind of schemes of work start to come out for the other, for the other, bigger publishers.

The rush is also. The rush also concerns me for another reason.

And I wonder whether in your role at bisa, for example, or with BISA there is something that can be done about this. Because the rush is also from the teacher's point of view, I have very.

And school's point of view, I have very little time to find out what my preferred choice initially might be. Right. Because you have very little time to produce this stuff industry. But I have probably even less time to then make an informed decision.

And it feels to me somehow if through bisa and I'm sure there will be other channels, something could be created that says have you looked at this? Have you thought of this? Here's a one paragraph synopsis of this thing that's coming up. Because the other thing that.

And, and I don't know how teachers do it. So in my day I used to get a little catalog probably about January, February time.

And actually in the catalog languages was probably only about three or four pages in the catalog anyway. Right. Nowadays, of course there is globally, there is such a mass of development that I'm struggling, never mind to make the choice.

I'm trying to find out what to choose from.

Yes.

So the volume and the rush is potentially a danger that we don't enable the teachers, the schools, the experts to make the best choices.

Absolutely. And it was a scramble last time we had a reform and it's looking that way again.

I think we are kind of better placed, I say, with, with ed tech providers such as Picotaire kind of being at the forefront. But you're absolutely right. From a CPD point of view as well as a. You take a step back, what am I actually going to bring into the school?

It is going to be such a rush and it's going to be for the teachers that are going to have to teach these new subject areas or who are going to have to weave oracy through their subject areas. That's going to be very, it's going to be difficult for them.

It's going to be a big ask for them to be upskilled in that way with everything else that they're contending with as well.

So I think going back to what we were saying around kind of not only teacher autonomy but Also listening to teachers and gathering information from them. There will be loads of teachers out there who are already doing financial literacy and digital literacy.

You know, they're already weaving oracy through their subject areas or they're, you know, they've got a fantastic citizenship program.

What we should be sharing that, you know, we should be sharing that together and then curating it to make sure it can then go out to different schools.

And something you and I have talked about as well is that localization that, that gives them a chance to, you know, to really adapt, tweak for their, not only their students but their area, you know, and schools within their area that they can share with.

I think, you know, some schools are fantastic at sharing their fantastic networks, obviously particularly within the mats, but there are schools that need support there, you know, and, and I think that there's a good opportunity to do that as well now.

And incidentally, I don't want anybody connected to the DfE coming now and saying we're already doing this because Oaks Online or whatever else, I just can't be doing with that. This is a serious conversation about children's learning and the options that exist in terms of choices and purpose and the hows and the whys.

And I think there's a big challenge, but I do see roles for organizations like your group at BSA to actually make some of those, make some of that information more readily available and make some of the choices thereby better informed. The other thing that always springs to mind as I kind of listen to you and, and kind of also think about this whole conversation is that purpose.

That, that purpose and, and experience piece, how and the what we can't let go. We, we need to build in there somewhere.

And, and you and I have already got conversations and, and have talked to some publishers for quite a long time now about what, what, what that might look like or what that might begin to look like and who contributes that kind of bottom up movement.

But I also, I'm always reminded of a conversation I've had many a time sometimes at Blackwell's, the bookshop in, in Oxford with, with the late great Sir Tim Brighouse. And, and Tim of course was, was all for learning and was all for children and all for communities and all for all things wonderful creativity.

And Tim and I used to talk about that kind of concept around Children's University in the first instance. About 11 things that every 11 year old should have experienced by the time you hit the age of 12. Here are 11 things that you should have experienced.

And our opinions vary greatly on this. But I think we ought to think around that level when it comes to formulating in our minds what the new content, what the new lists might look like.

And One of those 11 things may well be visiting the capital city of your country, being part of a team, producing something tangible like a book or be in a play. Some people might argue that even at the age of 11 you should have experience of social media. Others may take a very deep breath at that point.

But I think there's also, there are also realities because what we also got to do is stop lying to each other as grown ups and do that bit that says, well it's not allowed until they're 13. Really? What and what, and what's the reality?

So I think, I think we need to have a debate around those 11 experiences as, as Tim coined them, but then say, well, how do we weave some of that into that content?

Exactly, yeah. And it goes back. Yeah.

Seeing the framework as a foundation for everything else around it is what we need to do rather than being, you know, it's the be all and end all, which is what a lot of content is now focused on.

And don't get me wrong, you know, particularly when we move into secondary, when we are looking at, you know, exams and there are, you know, they need to know X, Y and Z to pass that exam. Absolutely. Like the framework must be followed particularly at primary.

I feel we teachers should have much more autonomy to choose whether they do X, Y or Z with that. You know, it's like I was having a conversation last year with my daughter's school. She's very much into space. She still is.

We just, on Saturday we recreated with a huge box that a fridge was delivered in the Artemis too. So you know, she's very, still very much into space.

And I talked to school about that and said if anything you could do, you know, she's very engaged in space. She loves fact books. She's not into this, this and this, but she loves it.

And they said, oh, I don't think she learns that about that till year four or something like that. And I said, oh, okay. And that was kind of it. That was, that was it. It was. She doesn't learn about that. Well, she might be done with it by then.

So as a, you know, as a family we've engaged her with it now and she still, like I say to this day, is very engaged in space. But it was, it was really sad actually that there was nothing that school could do. They felt very kind of, you know, or we can't support with that.

And I said, you could be into art or no, you know, that's not, that's not possible.

And I, and I felt for them because they, they kind of wanted to, but they had no autonomy outside of that very narrow, this is what she does about in science this year, you know.

But that would be a very interesting one.

I mean, so, so my, my big question is, and again we talked about this in London at the BESA event not that long ago is will, will the new national curriculum be a framework that trusts the profession?

Yes.

Or will it be a list? And my view is it should be a framework that trusts.

So by the age of whatever else, and one has to be careful with that, as you say, but by the age of whatever, these are the expected bits of knowledge and understanding and experiences that a child will have had.

And when you live in whole, that might be a very different set of experiences within that expectation than in Liverpool or in London or in Manchester or wherever else. But you need to trust the professions to get that right.

Now I think it's high time that we demonstrated that we trusted the teacher professions we trust rather than give them lists to do right. I think, I think that's such a, such an incredibly important thing.

And your story reminds me when my son was about 8 or 9 and Tom was an avid reader, so many of our Saturdays were spent at Waterstones and to the point where At Waterstones actually knew him and they'd give me sometimes recommendations for him. It was a lovely relationship. But there was something wrong with the layout of the bookstore.

And the reason I say this, that the bookstore was laid out by the adults who thought that they were being helpful to the children. There was a girls section and there was a boys section. And within each of those there was an age section. 5 And 6 year olds, 8, 9 year olds.

So what actually happened?

By thinking that they were being helpful, they denied my son access to most of the books that would have been appropriate for a very avid reader at the age of eight. Because when I said to, when I used to say to him, let's have a look at the books for 11 and 12 year olds, he would literally go, I'm not allowed.

He would never go into the girls section because he wasn't one. So I think one of those things all grow up. What's the quote from the Little Prince?

All grown ups were once children, but only few of them remember it.

I think in our planning for learning as opposed to planning for teaching, we should stand, we should stand in Two places we should stand in the shoes of the children and we should stand on the shoulders of giants like the Carla Ranallis and the Tim Brig Houses.

And I think if we, if we do this and we need to trust our teachers because in the end your 8 year old wants to be taught brilliantly and innovatively and all and wonderishly by her teachers. So unleash that creativity amongst these. I do some work, I'm a professor of practice at Cumbria University.

I do a little bit of work with about 200 teacher training students and, and when I speak to them, you know, they all want to be in that room not because of me, they want to be in that room because they're all desperate to be brilliant teachers and make a difference to the lives of children, stop getting in their way and, and begin to see this new national curriculum as an opportunity to unleash or unwonder and they'll get their grades and, and, and all that stuff that will come. But bring me the child who is confident and who is a confident learner and who wants to learn and I'm less worried about the grade.

I'm also incidentally less worried about their behavior with mobile phones and classrooms. I think we, I think our starting point in this needs to be that. Not a top down list.

Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more, I couldn't agree more. I think we have completely forgotten about everything that surrounds the curriculum and that framework when it comes to content creation.

When we, Well, I was going to say we no longer think holistically. I'm not sure we ever really did, but we need to, we need to start thinking holistically because I, absolutely, you and I have seen it firsthand.

You see a confident, resilient child and they are eager to learn and eager to succeed and that leads to those grades. You know, force a child to sit down at a desk and give them a worksheet, math that has no context that they're not engaged with.

That's not going to get you anywhere. So I think absolutely.

And as you say, these teachers that are coming into the profession now, they're the ones that are, you know, they understand technology, they've lived through social media, you know, the, the onslaught I'd say of social media. They, they've navigated that and then now, you know, they're using AI probably most days at university, you know, in some way, shape or form.

So these are the teachers coming through that we can really utilize in terms of getting these, navigating these children through today's world. Both from a technology point of view and from just an everyday points of view, you know, as they prepare themselves for life and life skills.

And what we don't want them to do is land in the teaching profession, get into their first job and be completely jaded by the fact that it's not what they thought it was going to be. We need to put that in their hands and give them some control to hopefully, you know, see that through.

I agree. It always reminds me on a quote from Billy Connolly about schooling, who basically said, I never knew why I had to do algebra.

I'm not likely to go there. And I think that kind of, to that degree sums it up.

The excitement in conclusion, also for me is that there's a real opportunity through the technology, but I also think through that experience I had spending some time at B Servant in London with, with people from the publishing world is, I think there is a real opportunity for the publishing professions in the broadest possible sense, and the teaching and learning professions in the broadest possible sense, to genuinely collaborate on awe and wonder content that addresses the how, the why and the what. And I think the chance is there and I think it's up to us to make that happen.

Up to us and up to brilliant new businesses such as Pigletail and many of the others that you and I come across. So I'm really optimistic and excited from that point of view.

And I think genuinely that the collaboration between the two professions, the publishing profession and the teaching and learning profession, it's at a point where it's no longer just tokenism.

Yeah, absolutely. I absolutely agree. And like you say, organizations like bsa, that's exactly what we do.

You know, we're pulling people together who are in the classroom, who have that experience, who understand the challenges with people that can take that forward. And I don't think, you know, we've always done that, but I do think we're genuinely at a place where we are collaborating in that way now.

So happy days, really. Rebecca, thanks for your time.

Thank you for having me. It's been wonderful to chat as ever.

It's been a pleasure. Mark, thank you for having both of us.

It's absolutely been amazing to listen to you both and I love the full circle moment of Gare you saying, how do we meet? What will be doing? It's a post on LinkedIn which then has a conversation about the book and we've had this whole series about the book.

And then to have Rebecca on and to. To talk about education in.

In the heart of what we're doing, and I think us all being on that same page and being able to share that, I think is a really important and. Yeah, a really sort of special thing to be able to do. Yeah. So thank you both for being here.

Total pleasure. Thanks, Mark.

Thank you, Mark.