Can dealcoholized wine be improved?

The answer is maybe, or maybe not. Matthew Jukes & Amanda Thomson disagree, industry insiders Imma Cannavo, Harry Crowther & Francoise Mathis set out their wish-lists, and regular contributor James Morgan explains why some alcohol-free wine can taste, well .... terrible!

Wine seems to be the poor relation of the no and low drinks world. Unlike non-alcoholic beer, it's not widely considered to offer excellent quality, and it hasn't reached the same levels of awareness and excitement as alcohol-free spirits. Why? Well, there are several reasons, and a few solutions. This episode gathers comments from key industry insiders, and looks at what might come next for de-alcoholised wine.

Guests:

Matthew Jukes is a world-renowned, award-winning, wine taster, journalist and author. During his 35 years in the wine business, Matthew has worked for BBC Radio and Channel 4 TV, and as well as writing 14 wine books, he has written the most widely-read wine column in the UK, in the Daily Mail’s Weekend Magazine, for over two decades. Find him on matthewjukes.com. He is also the founder, creator and CEO of Jukes Cordialities jukescordialities.com

Amanda Thomson is the CEO and Founder of Thomson & Scott and creator of Noughty premium alcohol-free sparkling Chardonnay and Rosé. Having been brought up on a plant-based, no sugar diet by her health-conscious single mother, Amanda has always had a keen interest in healthy living. After a successful career as an Arts Broadcaster at the BBC, she moved to Paris and studied for her Diploma in Wine at the renowned Le Cordon Bleu School. Find her at http://noughtyaf.com

Imma Cannavo is Head Sommelier and Wine Buyer at Oblix. She started her career in 2007 at the Locanda Locatelli, moved to Paris to learn about French wines, then to Dubai where she became Head Sommelier Middle East for Hakkasan Group. She returned to London's Hakkasan Mayfair before joining Oblix. http://oblixrestaurant.com

Harry Crowther is founder of Grain to Grape: Modern profitable wine training, specialising in making teams 'wine confident' and increasing profitability of wine lists. He's a contributing writer at The Buyer, and has plenty of experience squishing grapes in NZ and Portugal. Harry also heads up wine buying for Good Pair Days, Australia's fastest growing online wine subscription service, launching in the UK in Nov 2021. Find him at www.grapetimes.co.uk

Francoise Mathis has lived in the UK for the last 17 years working with various wholesales across the wine trade and recently joined Indigo Wine as Commercial Director. https://www.indigowine.com

James Morgan co-founded the No & Low consultancy Brimful Drinks after a 25-year career in hospitality. He also has a background in both art and research. He has worked with clients including Distill Ventures, Travers Smith, Nine Elms No.18, Better Rhodes and Hakkasan Group. Contact him here james@brimfuldrinks.co.uk

Contact:

Chrissie Parkinson is The Alcohol-Free Sommelier. Get in touch with your comments, questions and ideas: chris@brimfuldrinks.co.uk

Hello, I'm Chrissie Parkinson. Welcome to my journey through the world of drinks without alcohol. After 18 years as head of wine for a restaurant group, I became co founder of the specialists no no drinks consultancy brimful drinks. I passionately believe that all drinks whether they have alcohol or not should look beautiful and taste great. If you care about low and no drinks, this podcast is for you. I am your alcohol free sommelier.

Did you know that the first dealcoholisation plot for wine was built in Germany in 1908, by the Carl Jung company, they still produce alcohol free wine to this day. So this is a category with a lot of history to build on. More recently 1985 marked the launch of two more well known dealcoholised wines Eisberg and Ariel, those are both still going strong as well. Early in the 21st century, some major wine producers including Torres, Lindemans, and McGuigan started to sell dealcoholised wines under their own labels. It was driven of course, by growing demand for alcohol free, but it was a brave step. If they got it wrong, it could have damaged their brand. Clearly there was an increase in confidence in the product. Recently, however, most of the newer dealcoholised wine brands on the market have been created by companies that don't produce wine themselves. They specialise in alcohol free, Odd bird Thompson and Scott and Wild Life Botanicals are three such outfits, they source wine from existing wineries then have it dealcoholised all to their own specification. So at last, we have reached a point where the buyer or consumer is starting to have some choice if they want to wine that doesn't have alcohol. But it isn't all rosy. A lot of people are very dismissive about dealcoholised wine, particularly in the hospitality industry. So I set out to investigate and got some very interesting feedback. First up, Francoise, Mathis, commercial director of Indigo wine.

Like many of my peers, I tend to shun those type of wines, simply because well, we don't think about them as wine. But also we have very little positive experience when we try them. It's always about quality and the value for money quality ratio. But when you have a wine that is made, and you remove the alcohol, the question is, is it still a wine or has it lost its very nature. Our producers tend to be very small, and produce very interesting wine with a sense of place. So if you tell me that there are some non alcoholic wines out there that can tell the same story. Yes, we'd love to speak to them. But I tend to be a little bit doubtful that it's going to be an easy find.

Next, I asked consultant, trainer and writer Harry Crowther of Grain to Grape about his experiences.

Honestly, I haven't tried many because I'm I'm a winer and I do love a drop, so no, not many. And I will say that the ones predominantly that we do see are from more of the bulk producers. The problem with dealcoholised in wine is the whole reverse osmosis element to it. And that obviously strips the wine back so in my experience, I haven't seen too many, too many producers that have got it right.

Lastly, I spoke to Imma Cannavo, Wine Buyer and Head Sommelier at Oblix.

First, I think is the wording itself. It doesn't sound really appealing. And secondly, I think the guests have the perception of when you have a de dealcoholised wine it's just a grape juice, like very sweet grape juice kind of and with a lot of sugar. People doesn't really know and believe in it. So even though I want to list and I want to really work with those products, there is always a kind of a doubt. It doesn't reallysell.

Clearly there's a lot of disappointment in this category, not to mention a degree of scepticism that good quality de-alc wine can ever exist. With this in mind it's time for our first tech spot I asked my colleague James Morgan to explain how the dealcoholisation process works to see if that shed some light on the problems.

Firstly, wines that are going to be dealcoholised go through the usual winemaking process including fermentation and ageing. And then the resulting wine is then dealcoholised. And there are three main techniques currently used to do this.

The next two minutes are quite technical, but worth the effort.

So firstly, this vacuum distillation in which the aromas extracted under vacuum at approximately 30 degrees, then the alcohol is removed in a second pass through the distillation column before the aromas are blended back into the dealcoholised liquid. The second technique is similar, but it's called spinning cone column distillation which also uses a vacuum. But this differs from the other vacuum distillation in a number of ways. So after the wine enters to the column, passes over a number of spinning times, which disperse the wine into a very fine film. This fine film means that the process of capturing the volatile aromas is more efficient and actually faster, they're captured by steam, which is punched through the column. And then the extracted aromas are separated before the liquid is passed through the column again to remove the alcohol. And then similarly, the liquid is reunited with the previously separated aromas. It's said to be better because of the spinning technology, the wine is in a very fine film, which means the arom aromas are easier to capture. It's faster, and they're only in the distillation column for about 25 seconds. And then the other technique that's widely used is sometimes known as the membrane method, but it is also known as reverse osmosis. And the way this works is the wine pumps through a very fine filter at high pressure. And water and alcohol, which are the smallest molecules in the wine are able to pass through the filter leaving behind the flavours colour and tannins. Because then the alcohol is separated from the water by distillation. Before that water is then reunited with the flavour, colour and tannins.

Thanks, James. So given the poor perceptions of quality, I set out to find some ways to fix dealcoholised wine. Our first fix comes from well known wine writer, speaker and buyer, Matthew Jukes,

I don't think wine will ever be successful in this field. I just I can't see it happening. I've seen a lot of very, very clever people attacking this subject and coming up with largely hollow slightly sweet, slightly simple products. So I just don't, I don't think they should really continue along this track.

Okay, so this isn't exactly a fix. Matthew thinks dealcoholised wine shouldn't even exist. Hmm. Perhaps I should have mentioned that he's also the creator of his own rather lovely non alcoholic drink. But he does make an excellent point. If you can't do it, well, maybe you shouldn't do it at all. On a more cheerful note, I spoke to Amanda Thompson. She's the creator of Noughty dealcoholised sparkling Chardonnay, which has been a massive hit in markets around the world. I asked her why it is so hard to get dealcoholised wine, right, and how she managed it.

I think it's hard for a number of reasons. I think initially, you've got a two step process because you're making the wine first, then you've got the whole new step, huge step of the dealcoholization process. I think from a philosophical point of view, I'm not convinced that makers historically had given the same love, care, attention and in my mind obsession, to creating the perfect alcohol free wine, and therefore the gap was wide open for me to do that.

This is more like it. Amanda's approach is love care and attention. In other words, our fix number two is to put your heart and soul into getting it right and pay attention to the details. Moving on, Harry pointed out earlier that most of the alcohol free wines he'd seen were the equivalent of entry level wines. I asked him whether he'd be more interested in the category if he could buy dealcoholised versions of classic quality wines such as Chablis or Rioja?

Yes, definitely. I think that's a really interesting question. I think what it does, if it's done right, I think it's okay. Basically, I think if it's, you know, if it's Chablis, Particularly if it's Chablis because the quality system it's more of a sense of place. And I personally I wouldn't like to see any cru vineyards necessarily being fruit being used for that because I just think that that should be reserved for wine but certainly, you know, say Petit Chablis fruit and the like should Yeah, absolutely. Why not and I think what it will do eventually it will bring credibility to the non alcoholic you know, brand dealcoholised wine, because now we've got words that are synonymous with quality wine. And that you know, that you can now put into that category.

So premiumise and integrate into the appellation system could be our fix number three. Harry certainly thinks this is the way ahead, and he could have a point. Imagine if you could buy dealcoholised Barolo or alcohol free Cloudy Bay with those names on the label. And especially if there were regulations setting out production requirements. This could be an absolute game changer. I'd certainly want to put them on any wine list I was writing, but it hasn't happened yet. And I suspect it's still a very long way off. After the break. We'll hear fix number four.

I'd like to say a big thank you to Nine Elms, our sponsor for this episode. Nine Elms number 18. Ruby velven is an excellent new type of non-alc drink that works equally well as an aperitif or with a meal. It has lovely red fruit and herbaceous flavours, reminiscent of a dry red vermouth. There's real complexity too. So it's an ideal match for many different foods. Nine Elms Ruby also works as a vibrant and refreshing spritz served on ice with a splash of tonic. It's one of my favourites, and I've always got some in the fridge at home. Thanks guys.

Nearly all dealcoholised wines contain added grape must or sugar. Some, however go a bit further. If you read the back labels carefully, you may come across the term flavouring. It's very discreet and no specific ingredients are mentioned. But what if they were? Some of the new wave of producers such as Wild Life Botanicals are proudly adding fruit or herb extracts to their dealcoholised wine with good results. This could be fix number four. Here's James again.

Well, I think that you know it's always going to be a problem. If winemakers just stay attached to trying to make wine like wine, when the thing about dealcoholised wine is that they're putting it through an industrial process, which is denaturing the wine to a large extent and you know there's something quite, you know unromantic about that. In contrast to the tradition of winemaking, you might as well utilise different technologies and different things at your disposal. It does not have to be all industrial in order to produce a superior product and a product that perhaps has a little bit more resonance with the traditional experience of drinking wine. The problem with all of these techniques is that there is always to a greater or lesser degree, a loss in balance and mouthfeel and probably some loss of flavour. Some other drinks have tried to address this by introducing things like chilli or pepper, which replicate to an extent the warmth that you get from alcohol but to my knowledge, no wine makers are using similar techniques. There are some wine producers who are blending in other additions, things like herbal extracts and things which can help to fill holes that have left you know in the dealcoholisation process. I think more can be done on that front. By working with, you know spices and herbs and flavours to build a satisfying wine alternative.

This concept is the one that interests me the most. After all, there is a very long tradition of adding natural flavourings to wine in order to create vermouth. Not to mention the use of oak or resin. I'm really struck by how many flavouring ingredients grow in and around vineyards. I have spotted apricot, apples, olives, nuts and figs to mention just a few. It's also common for herbs to occur naturally around the vines. A great example is the Garrigue of southern France. This usually includes lavender, Sage, thyme, rosemary, Juniper and cistus amongst others. Wines from that region often carry these flavours quite naturally, as the aromatic oils of the plants are deposited onto the grapes as they grow, so why not use botanicals gathered from around the vineyard to supplement the structure and flavour of dealcoholised wines? I put this point to James.

Well,it's a really good point. And I think that, you know, your suggestion is could go a long way to solving the problem.

But why not go even further? Why not skip making a wine altogether and simply create an alternative? After all, that's exactly what Matthew Jukes has done.

I've always, as you know, Christine, firsthand, I've enjoyed a few drinks. But the public persona might look like I do that every day of the week. The reality the truth behind that is that I you know, save up for special occasions when I'm out and about and on those days off in inverted commas. I don't drink I don't feel the need to have a drink. to swallow. Everything would be foolish, I think, particularly with my advancing years. And so I have a few days off. And that led me to think in a what do you do on your days off? What should people be thinking about what their habits are, etc. And everyone has had a go at taking alcohol out of wine over the years and unfortunately, I've never liked any of those products. They're not really wine anymore. And it's you know, when you strip alcohol out of the line, it's somewhat pulls the sort of skeleton out of the middle of the body, and you're left with a rather sort of flabby, often quite sweet drink because you have to replace that volume of flavour or the volume of alcohol with something and of course, you replace it with sugar generally. So I just don't like the flavour of the products and I've actually never written one up in my Daily Mail column. And then down the track, I ended up creating some new category of drinks.

Matthew's drinks, Jukes Cordialities are based on apple cider vinegar, and yet they drink very like wine. This then is our fifth and final fix: create an alternative which is not wine, but has similarities. I'll be exploring some of these alternatives in future episodes. So we'll come back to Jukes cordialities then. Let's recap our five solutions to the problem of dealcoholised wine. Number one, courtesy of Matthew Jukes is just don't do it. Leave the alcohol in give up on trying to make an alcohol free wine. Number two from Amanda Thompson is to obsess over your product and make dealcoholised wine with the same attention to detail as alcoholic wine, exactly as she does, with Noughty. Our third fix from Harry Crowther is premiumization. And eventually, alcohol free wine produced under comparable rules the AOP system. Fix number four, enhanced dealcoholised wine with botanicals to build structure and flavour especially if they come from the estate where the wine is made. And finally, fix number five, do what Matthew Jukes has done and create an alternative that isn't wine at all, but tastes and feels similar. So there you have it: five possible solutions to the problem of de-alc wine. Some of these fixes are already happening. But there's still a massive opportunity to innovate. With so much demand for alcohol free drinks, it seems certain that all the solutions and more will be with us before long. On that note, I'd like to leave the last word to Francoise Mathis,

we have to face the facts that demand is there, I mean the numbers are quite staggering. I put all those numbers in the table just to reflect on the enormity of the market changes because between consumer pattern change and that huge demographic of customers that will never become wine consumers. If we find the right products. Yes, it's probably something we'll consider in the future.

A huge thank you to my guest this week. Matthew Jukes, Amanda Thompson, Imma Cannavo. Francoise Mathis and Harry Crowther. Thanks also to James Morgan and to David Monteith at Rogue Spirit Podcasting Solutions. In the next episode, I'll be looking at distribution of low and no drinks and why it's so different to the distribution of alcohol. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow or subscribe to The Alcohol-free Sommelier on your favourite podcast platform. I'm Chrissie Parkinson, goodbye from me. And whatever your drink, drink well.