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Talking About Money
Episode 251st December 2022 • Academic Aunties • Ethel Tungohan
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Academics would rather talk about their sex lives than talk about their salaries. So in today's episode, we talk to Dr. Rebecca Major about one of the biggest taboos in academia: money. We talk about how hard it is for many first-gen academics to make ends meet, and the bougie norms of academia that make it difficult for them to talk about these struggles.

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Transcripts

Ethel Tungohan:

I'm Dr. Ethel Tungohan, an Associate Professor of Politics at York University. This is Academic Aunties.

Ethel Tungohan:

One of the norms that I just don't understand in academia is how everyone seems to be reluctant to talk about money. Someone once told me in fact that academics would rather talk about their sex lives than talk about their salaries. So in today's episode, we talk about one of the biggest taboos in academia money.

Ethel Tungohan:

In recent months, we've seen an increase in the number of PhD students, postdocs, and faculty members drawing attention to how their stipends, fellowship funds, and salaries barely allow them to make ends meet. They reject this idea of academia as a calling, the demand sacrifice. They seek better compensation for the work that they do.

Ethel Tungohan:

More importantly, the rebel against bourgeois academic norms. They refuse to be quiet about the economic inequalities that they are facing. My guest in today's episode, Dr. Rebecca Major, has been vocal about inequities in academia, including economic inequities. I asked Dr. Major or Becky for short to talk to me about her experiences working multiple jobs in grad school, taking on debt, and I also ask her for her opinion on ways to reform the system.

Ethel Tungohan:

I am so pleased to have my really good friend, Dr. Rebecca Major, who I've known now for I guess, two years, right, Becky? Right. So Becky and I, you know, have been talking a lot about finances and graduate school and how we don't really want to talk about finances in academia, and we don't know quite why that is.

Ethel Tungohan:

But before we jump into our conversation, I'll have Auntie Becky introduce herself and say hi to the pod. Hi, Auntie Becky.

Rebecca Major:

Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm always so terrible at introducing myself cuz I never remember what I should be saying or what I should talk about.

Ethel Tungohan:

Yeah. We'll, we'll just leave it as, you know, you're a friend of the pod, you're also an assistant professor of political science at the University of Windsor, and you're amazing. So. Yeah. Does that sound okay?

Rebecca Major:

Oh, Oh you're so kind. You're

Ethel Tungohan:

So, yeah, so just jumping right into this, I guess my first question for you is, you know, can you talk about money and academia. And you know, when we were having an offline conversation, we were talking about why, well, we were wondering why is it that academics don't like talking about money and academics specifically don't like talking about money in graduate school.

Ethel Tungohan:

Do you know why that is? And can you share a little bit about your experiences navigating financial concerns during graduate school?

Rebecca Major:

Yeah, I mean for me when I was going to university, I was living in an area of Saskatoon in a little 500 square foot house with my dad.

Rebecca Major:

And it was a very big stigma for him. He was very embarrassed about being poor. It was something he didn't wanna talk about. It was a reason he didn't want people to come to the house cuz he didn't wanna see people in our tiny little house. Right?

Rebecca Major:

And even before that, when we finally made it out of an apartment and into a duplex before our tiny little house it was still something that was a source of embarrassment for him.

Rebecca Major:

But at the same time for me to be in university was so huge, right? So we just pooled our sources together.

Rebecca Major:

I got my measly $535 a month from student loans to chip in. And we just made our way, but it was something that he was really embarrassed about. And in the early 2000s before the economic crisis, I, you know, would tell him, I'm like, you know what, dad? We're in Saskatchewan. Everybody's poor.

Rebecca Major:

It's okay. Right? And it's, and he was like, oh, well, it was still hard for him. And I mean, that was the reality back then as a family unit, and we just kept it really private and other people in our family were embarrassed after to say, well, we didn't know you were struggling so hard. And it was like, well...

Ethel Tungohan:

Yeah. And I think that's one of the things that I want us to demystify during this conversation. Right. Let's talk about money and let's talk about the fact that not everyone in academia came from the same starting point. How did you know these financial realities affect you when you were in graduate school?

Rebecca Major:

Yeah, so when I was in my MA program, I had one small little bursary, the Howard Adams Award that Dr. Lala Birdie nominated me for. Otherwise I ended up with like a 14 page cv. Because I had to hustle cuz that was my only opportunity to try and do something to shore things up. Cause when I was in my master's, I didn't go for the student loan.

Rebecca Major:

I worked a lot of bingos. Dad did a lot of odd jobs. Saskatoon had a factory called Mitchell's that we ate a lot of sausage for many years. And then when I got into my PhD program, I was already a sessional.

Rebecca Major:

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Major:

And so I was a sessional during the fall winter months, and my partner was a stay-at-home dad because of the way the finances worked for us, we couldn't afford childcare and for him to work . So he stayed home. And then in the summers he would go and do, contracts like carpet cleaning, and I would be on EI in the summer. And then I entered my PhD and this stipend was half of what I was making as a sessional.

Ethel Tungohan:

Really?

Rebecca Major:

Yeah, So I couldn't give up the sessional position for the stipend, had to choose.

Ethel Tungohan:

Right, Because for PhD programs in Canada, for our listeners, right, when you have your PhD stipend, your PhD scholarship, you can't take it if you're also working. You have to basically agree not to work during your PhD. Is that right Becky?

Rebecca Major:

Yeah. So, and that just financially we had a house, our first house in Saskatoon, we could not afford to change our economic circumstances that way. And so for my undergrad, I had a, I had a student loan. I came out of that student loan with a $35,000 debt. And then in the PhD after the first year or two, we were struggling so much I went back and started getting my student loan again.

Rebecca Major:

And so I came outta my PhD with a six figure student loan.

Rebecca Major:

And people say, oh, well you shouldn't take on debt in grad school, but there are some of us that we would never have made it out of our 500 square foot house had we not taken on that debt.

Rebecca Major:

But that changes the playing field immensely once you are in a different position, because you're coming into this now with different baggage than other people. Namely a student loan payment that's bigger than a mortgage

Ethel Tungohan:

Absolutely. And I think kind of just going back to what you were saying where people were like, well, you shouldn't take on debt when you're in graduate school. I mean, how did it make you feel when people would say that to you knowing that the student loan that you received was so crucial in helping you make ends meet and also help you not to have to take on another job. Right. On top of all of the other jobs that you were doing as well as, you know, doing your PhD studies and your PhD research. So when people were saying that, were you like, dude, no. Or do you just kind of laugh it off?

Rebecca Major:

Yeah, honestly, I would just either laugh it off or I'd just be quiet in embarrassment that, you know, I didn't get all the scholarships and I never had funding at all this scholarship to be able to do it. This is like all me, almost entirely, all me with like, two tiny little bursaries. I got about an $800 bursary from the Métis Nation of Ontario right at the end of my PhD to help with a semester of, well, two semesters of tuition to help me get through.

Rebecca Major:

Cause I, I had used up all of my room for student loans. I'd capped out.

Ethel Tungohan:

Yeah, but I think, you know, one thing I kind of wanted to emphasize was it's not, it's not, it's not your fault, right? Like the scholarship, the stipend that all PhDs get in Canada, is given with these kind of caveats saying that you can't work. A lot of people can't, can't accept that. Right.

Ethel Tungohan:

Especially because, you know, you also had a kid, right? Like a lot of graduate students, you know, don't have kind of family obligations as well, right. So it's not, I think it's systematically a problem. I think it's not on you.

Rebecca Major:

You know, and it's true. And then, you know, coming from not a big economic background, that also meant that I was coming from a background that I didn't have people to borrow money from to go to conferences. I didn't have a credit card to just throw like air travel on necessarily, you know, because people who come from like lower economic circumstances, we don't come huge from credit scores

Ethel Tungohan:

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Major:

You know, so suddenly we're also expected to be traveling in spaces and whatnot that are really beyond our means and beyond some of our own comfort zones and experiences.

Ethel Tungohan:

I think hearing you just say that makes me realize how disproportionately unequal it is, in graduate school and also beyond that because you mentioned, for example, conferences, right? And people are just like, well, you know what? Just put it on your credit card. Right? And you'll pay it back when you get your, your conference funding. Don't worry about that.

Ethel Tungohan:

But you're saying that not everyone has the advantage of even being able to just throw it on a credit card or even borrowing money.

Rebecca Major:

Well, that's just it. And I mean, and it happens in so many different, aspects when you, when you are changing into a different life. Like I was fortunate to get into a home ownership program for low and middle income people in Saskatoon me, you know, um, something to be able to continue to be home ownership when I moved to Ontario, cuz I came in right before a boom, thankfully.

Rebecca Major:

Right? Otherwise I wouldn't be able to have a house right now. But at the same time when I was dealing with mortgages and things and people and they were talking about, okay, well, bridging and all these kinds of new ideas, to me, they're like, well, do you have, can you just borrow 5,000 from somebody?

Rebecca Major:

Don't you have family that has $5,000? I'm like, No... what? Like that was so outlandish to me. It's like, I don't even like to borrow $500 from somebody, you know, but to just be like, oh yeah, just ask your aunt if they can just like lend you five grand for, you know, this and that and whatever it's like who?

Rebecca Major:

Like, I don't come like, no, you know, I mean, I have one branch of family on my mom's side that does okay. I guess, but I don't really talk to them.

Ethel Tungohan:

What was it like then? So, you know, you were in graduate school, you were sessionaling, you took on student loans. How did you kind of balance doing all of that plus your PhD research?

Rebecca Major:

Um, In my PhD program, I got very used to getting up at 4:30 and 5:00 in the morning.

Rebecca Major:

So I was about eight months pregnant when I defended my masters. And then I took two years off working for the Métis Nation, Saskatchewan. And then I started to look at going back into a PhD program. So my son was a toddler.

Rebecca Major:

You know, a young child and just, you know, it's the, the people say, well, you sleep when the baby sleeps. Well, you know what? I work when the baby sleeps.

Rebecca Major:

Yeah.

Rebecca Major:

Right. So I got into the habit of you know, being really productive early in the mornings and then I could just, you know, have my normal day.

Rebecca Major:

And when the baby went to bed, I went to bed. You know, no evenings for me. But that's okay. Even through that, I mean, I spent time elected. Um, I spent, I was working, I was a mom and I still managed to do my PhD and get it completed within six years.

Ethel Tungohan:

That's amazing. I am in awe of you. I mean, I think one question I had for you as well, going back to what you were saying earlier is then you started as an assistant professor, but then you said earlier you had baggage that other people didn't. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Rebecca Major:

Yeah. So one day this summer I was sitting down with a colleague and I mean, I hear these things of parents who, people of parents, you know, their, their children of parents who have been professors, and my parents' generation was the first generation in all of my families to really do anything in post-secondary. Like my dad had some field college. My mom went to teachers college and was the first to have a university degree in my mom's side of the family in Bishops.

Rebecca Major:

And so, I mean, there was, there was some post-secondary. But for me when I showed up at, at post-secondary, you know, I showed up because I knew that it was, I was supposed to do, I showed up first year.

Rebecca Major:

I didn't understand what it meant that the person in front of the class was teaching me with a PhD. I had no clue how to run the game like none. Right. I was living out west with my dad. My mom was in Ontario cuz her mom was older. Now my grandpa had passed. And you know, showed up and did what I thought was expected.

Rebecca Major:

So like, It's not to say that I wasn't totally inexperienced with post-secondary, but I really didn't know what I was supposed to be doing or what was expected of me. But then, so I'm sitting there with my friend this summer and she's talking about she's... I'm at the very end of Gen X.

Rebecca Major:

When I was in high school, we used to call ourselves Gen X in the nineties. We're not really, now we're like some bridge generation, but I was talking with somebody who's much at the other end of the Gen X. Her parents are professors and like some of the things that I come with, with the student loans, with the inexperience, with not knowing how to navigate grant systems and all sorts of things like that. You know, it didn't even dawn on her because she came from parents who were professors.

Ethel Tungohan:

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Major:

Right. So some of the baggage is the learning curves that we have to learn to navigate in these like foreign institutional systems that were so not built for many of us, like the institutional barriers. And I mean, I struggled so bad in my first year of university that most people would've dropped out. You know, instead, I spent four years clawing my average up to be able to get into a master's program. And I'm here because I refuse to take no for an answer. And I made people take chances on me and say, no, just let me prove it. Please just let me prove it. And because people let me prove it I've managed to work my way to where I am today, but it's like huge learning curve.

Ethel Tungohan:

Yeah. Can you can you talk a little bit about that? Right? So you know, for listeners, one of the studies that came out last year, and we'll link it into the show notes is that I think a third of all professors have parents who are professors, right?

Ethel Tungohan:

So they understand the world that they're entering and they understand some of the norms. And so one of the things that's interesting, Becky, as you were talking about your friend, is that she didn't even realize that things like student loans and things like learning all of these norms that are so normal to her is something that a lot of us have to claw our way into.

Ethel Tungohan:

Right? We have to kind of figure things out. So you're talking about social situations. I mean, how are these social situations also, I guess, markers of class privilege?

Rebecca Major:

Um, well, honestly, you just need to go to a department Christmas party that includes graduate students.

Ethel Tungohan:

Can you tell me more? What do you mean about that?

Rebecca Major:

Okay, so I mean, honestly, I come from a place where most of my, my Christmas parties in my home are like kitchen parties, right? Everybody's either in the kitchen or around the food and there's music going and stuff, and that's normal. But then you go to an academic Christmas party that might be in a fancy house on Sask Crescent, let's say, right? The people that are clearly not used to the social environment are the people that are the small little circles clustered around the food.

Rebecca Major:

table

Ethel Tungohan:

Mmm-hmm

Rebecca Major:

Right. Or sitting off to the side that you would think of and you think of wallflowers, right? And It takes a lot to just take that breath and dive in.

Ethel Tungohan:

For sure. And I think, you know, just as hearing as, as you were kind of describing these social spaces, right? One of the things I remember most clearly, especially as a PhD student at the University of Toronto is some of my peers knew what wine to order, right? You know, they would actually like sniff the glass.

Ethel Tungohan:

And I'm like, I don't, I don't really know. Like I don't, I don't know. My parents don't drink wine. This is not something that we talk about. Right. And so little markers like that of, I think class privilege or perhaps not even class privilege, but it's, it's kind of like a different cultural environment. I think that kind of makes me realize too, how, how uncomfortable it can be for those of us who are first generation who, who don't know our way around these circles, right.

Rebecca Major:

That's just it, right? And it creates such an unease and we hear a lot of, um, oh, what is the word? When you, um, when you're, when you're feeling, uh, like you don't belong, the, there's a term for it in

Ethel Tungohan:

Like you feel like, well, okay, an interloper, you feel like an outsider, you feel.

Rebecca Major:

yeah, it, it, it's like your,

Ethel Tungohan:

transgressing,

Rebecca Major:

if...

Ethel Tungohan:

I'm throwing up words.

Rebecca Major:

yeah. No, no, no. It's the idea That it's like

Ethel Tungohan:

Imposter syndrome.

Rebecca Major:

go. Right. And it's like, first of all, I know lots of people experience that. I know why I do regularly, but I use that as a space for myself to check myself, right? Because I wanna make sure that I'm always doing the best that I can for the spaces that I'm in and making sure that I'm doing things that are good for other people. But having all of this new, like, being one of those people that doesn't come from the backgrounds that are exposed to all this for generations, you know, I'm sure that must also compound on that imposter syndrome.

Rebecca Major:

And I know you've talked a little bit about that in previous podcasts of yours too.

Ethel Tungohan:

For sure. And I think one thing that you know, I'm trying to grapple with as well, even as we speak, is figuring out why in academia talking about money is seen as such a big taboo even when talking about money with respect to negotiations, with respect to salary. I was talking to someone about this and they said, you know what?

Ethel Tungohan:

Academics would rather talk about their sex lives than talk about money. And I'm just like, that's so weird. You know, why do you, do you agree with that?

Rebecca Major:

Well, and it's almost like there's like an unspoken rule that everybody just assumes everybody has it.

Ethel Tungohan:

Yes.

Rebecca Major:

And it's like, oh, well let's go for lunch here and let's go do that and let's go do this. And it's like, I'm still budgeting like two takeouts a month just to make sure that we get breaks from cooking every night. You know, like...

Ethel Tungohan:

Yeah.

Rebecca Major:

I'm still counting as I put my food in the grocery cart, you know, and I'm still paying attention to those things because, I mean, again, I have a student loan that's, you know, like my payments are four figures a month and it's just, it's taken for granted. Right. And there's just those certain assumptions and you don't want to be like, Hey, I can't.

Rebecca Major:

But at the same time, you know, you get another guilt because for me, I see other students, people that are struggling, you know, that are doing financial fundraising stuff, and I wish I was in a position that I could contribute more to them. But I feel guilty because I'm still paying for my own education.

Ethel Tungohan:

You shouldn't feel guilty though. And I think what this conversation shows us is that we do need to talk about financial privilege in academia, right? Like even as professors, for God's sake, right?

Ethel Tungohan:

Because there's this assumption that, oh, well, all professors, are on the sunshine list, which isn't true. Right? Or that all professors have kind of attained this bougie lifestyle, and you're saying that Mm, that's not actually true for, for some professors, right?

Ethel Tungohan:

And I mean, especially those that have had to, you know, work their way up. Right. And that looks different for every single person. Just like my masters looked very different from my PhD. Unfortunately my dad wasn't with me anymore when I did my PhD. It was something that he wanted to see me do, but I mean, he shoveled horse Literally for like weekends and weekends and flooded community hockey rinks and did all sorts of things just to make sure my tuition was paid for my masters and doing everything he could to try and make sure I didn't have to take on more of a student loan debt. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. You know, because, and to now coming through, I'm not gonna say we're done, but coming through this pandemic, one thing that's been key for my son ,first of all, if he gets a free education because of my employment, he knows what that means and he's gonna take it. And second, he's also seen that we struggled less than others because I had an education compared to where we started out before.

Ethel Tungohan:

Mm-hmm. .Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Major:

And even though we weren't always doing the greatest during the pandemic as the student loans and things, we still found other ways to make sure that we were at least finding ways to give back.

Rebecca Major:

Whether it's every two weeks when I was at the grocery store and I was buying a couple of those, like brown bag food bank thingies or whatever, right? Like and found ways to put money into the local economy cuz there's always somebody that was still doing worse than we were.

Ethel Tungohan:

And I think this goes to show, you know, that common adage saying that people who did not come from financial privilege are actually more generous than people who were really well off. Right.

Ethel Tungohan:

I have two more questions for you. The first question is, the podcast has a lot of PhD students, graduate students, and also early career scholars listening who are feeling like, they have this imposter syndrome and how talking about money and outing themselves as not having as much money, might even kind of bolster their imposter syndrome.

Ethel Tungohan:

So what advice would you give people who perhaps were in your place, like when you were in your PhD, people who have to hustle, who have to think about you know counting their money right? To make sure that they make ends meet. What advice would you give them?

Rebecca Major:

Honestly, be proud that you're working as hard as you are. And you're doing it anyway, right? I wish I was less embarrassed at certain times, and I know that comes from trying to overcome the stigmas that I was raised in, that it was like, you know, in a, it was supposed to be a source of embarrassment. No, it is a reaction to colonial institutions and systems of oppression and people who are working to overcome them. Right. And it, yeah. You know, sometimes we have to work harder. But one thing that I wanted to make sure that if that was me, I don't turn around and say, well, cuz I had it hard. You have to have it hard.

Rebecca Major:

No. That, you know, that's a bad attitude to have in my opinion, because that's not making better space for other people, .

Rebecca Major:

And if we don't start talking about it, how are other people gonna see that there is space for them.

Ethel Tungohan:

Absolutely. And I think. One of the things that I kind of wanted to end on, and this is another question I wanted to ask you, is what are some of the ways through which we can shift these structures of power that make it so hard for people without financial privilege to rise up?

Ethel Tungohan:

And I'm thinking about a lot of the labor actions taking place, within university sectors, right? Who people who were drawing attention to the lack of funding that graduate students have, right?

Rebecca Major:

Well, You know from working with me in other spaces that I like to push back in this space. I support the fact that we need to not be penalizing. I've had a lot of students in the past, especially when I was in Saskatchewan that came with band

Rebecca Major:

funding.

Ethel Tungohan:

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Major:

And if you wanted to be able to reward a student, some bands will actually penalize a student financially for receiving an award. And it's same with student loans. Like if I accidentally went and picked up a small job, suddenly I would've lost some student loans, right? Like, it just was, these loopholes to keep people poor are awful. We need to keep fighting to push back on those types of things with those funding loopholes and stuff that people use. But then people like myself, I've seen people shame each other on social media about how much they pay students, right? And like, oh, well I only pay my students this because they're only worth this cuz they haven't earned. Oh, you know, and all these kinds of debates.

Rebecca Major:

And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, let's take a a point here that we are working with people that are human beings, and I work really hard to make sure that I'm paying as best as I can within my institutional limits. Like I, I came from university that, and it's just, it's set up in the institution. You only, you know, get 17 something an hour or whatever.

Rebecca Major:

Well, I make sure that I'm doing over $20 an hour. I won't say cuz I don't wanna, you know, out everybody all over social media and things, but I do make sure that I'm trying to pay as much as I can. And when I put that in my grant applications or any of it, I mean, so far nobody has said no to me. You know, and I try to make it so at least it makes it worth their time to maximum, maximize their hours working for me over taking a a different type of employment.

Ethel Tungohan:

And I think that's such a good point. I think for listeners who are professors who do have access to grants, and I've worked with Becky on grants, right? Where we kind of build in a decent a living wage for our research assistants or graduate and undergraduate research assistants, right?

Ethel Tungohan:

Who cares if university norms are like $15, $16, $17 an hour. You don't have to follow that. Right. Would you be able to live with $15 an hour? No, you won't. So I think finding ways to kind of use our privilege through, for example, writing up grants to, to build in a higher salary for graduate students, that's something we could do as well.

Ethel Tungohan:

I also think, I don't know, thinking about this and, you know, thinking about your tweet, actually, that kind of made me think, oh, you're a good person to talk about this. Talking about student loans too, right? And how student loans are so important and so vital in helping PhD students go through the program. I think, you know, just kind of highlighting that this is a reality that a lot of graduate students are facing, that they have to resort to student loans.

Ethel Tungohan:

I think that's, that's an important way to, to draw attention to the issue too. Do you remember your tweet, Becky? I thought it was brilliant.

Rebecca Major:

I just remember seeing because it, it was a reaction. I will say that that was a day that it was a bit of a reaction, and I think it was about the fact that a lot of the student loans in the States, Were being wiped, you know, and there was a lot of people comments from the peanut gallery as they say where people aren't coming from lived experience about that.

Rebecca Major:

And it's like, until you've had to take the student loan to change your economic circumstance and demographically, the only way I would have changed my circumstances is through education. Right. When you look at the stats for, as women become educated in the income salary, and you know, especially when you look at Indigenous women and the Métis statistics and stuff and how our employment increases our standard of living and things, and you look at people like Sen who's looked at the impact of educating women in the wellbeing in families.

Rebecca Major:

You know, like it's important to do what you need to do and not listen to other people who are not paying your bills.

Ethel Tungohan:

That's why I really like your tweet actually, cuz I think, yes, now that I remember it, it was in reaction to some of these naysayers, people who were kind of judging others for taking on student loans. And I think in this Twitter thread, and I'll find it and I'll link it to the show notes.

Ethel Tungohan:

You were very clearly said, I took a student loan and look where I am right now. Right? Don't judge shoes, right? if you haven't traveled the uh, that they walked on. So I really love Uh, Any final words, Becky, listeners? to our listeners?

Rebecca Major:

Honestly, I just wanna thank you for having this space and talking about this and inviting me into the program because, you know, it is important because it is part of our reality and how we exist in these spaces, and there's a lot of dimensions to newer academics coming in, and you and I work in spaces where we try really hard to break barriers so that we can create more opportunities and things for people and those people coming in we need to consider.

Ethel Tungohan:

I love that. That's such a note beautiful on.

Ethel Tungohan:

Thank you.

Ethel Tungohan:

As I reflect on my conversation with Becky, I'm thinking about all the ways that we can work towards systemic change. It's important for us to act collectively. Just look at the over 48,000 academic workers in the University of California system carrying out the largest labor action in the United States this year.

Ethel Tungohan:

It's truly inspiring to witness all of us here at Academic Ante support the academic workers, striking and encourage all of you listeners to sign the petition supporting academic workers at the University of California, which we link to in the show notes

Ethel Tungohan:

And that's Academic Aunties. If you want to get in touch, contact us on Twitter at @AcademicAuntie, or email us at podcast@academicaunties.com.

Ethel Tungohan:

If you like what you're hearing, visit academicaunties.com/support to find out how to support this podcast. This includes becoming a Pat supporter, which goes right into the production of this podcast.

Ethel Tungohan:

Today's episode of Academic Aunties was hosted by me, Dr. Ethel Tungohan and produced by myself, Wayne Chu and Dr. Nisha Nath.

Ethel Tungohan:

Tune in next time when we talk to more academic aunties. Until then, take care. Be kind to yourself and don't be an asshole.