This transcription is provided by artificial intelligence. We believe in technology but understand that even the smartest robots can sometimes get speech recognition wrong.

 Welcome to this Week in Health, it influence where we discuss the influence of technology on health with the people who are making it happen. My name is Bill Russell, covering healthcare, c i o, and creator of this week in Health. It a set of podcasts and videos dedicated to developing the next generation of.

Leaders this podcast is brought to you health lyrics. Professional athletes hire coaches for aspect of their to ensure performance. Healthcare technology is much more important, yet too many leaders choose to go it alone. Uh, put a coach in your corner. Contact Health lyrics today, health lyrics.com to schedule your free consultation.

If you wanna support the fastest growing podcast in the health it space, five easy ways, you can do it, share it with a peer, share it on social media, follow our social accounts, LinkedIn, Twitter, YouTube, uh, send me feedback. Feedback has been phenomenal, uh, suggesting yes and, uh, giving me feedback on the number of times I say, um, and ah, is really appreciated as well.

Uh, bill, at this week in health it.com. And, uh, hit our newsletter. Subscribe to our newsletter, uh, talking. Uh, one last thing before we get to our guests. I, I try to condense this as much as I possibly can, but we have two new services out there. Just wanna make you aware of, uh, insights and staff meeting.

Insights is for those health IT professionals who are looking to invest in their career. Uh, you can hit our website, go into resources, go to insights. You can sign up, uh, for that. Every Tuesday and Thursday, you'll get, uh, a, an email delivered right to your inbox that has, uh, something that is, is designed to help you with your career in health.

It. And then, uh, this, this week health, uh, staff meeting, uh, which we just launched this week. The first one will be going out this week. Is for leaders who are running their staff meeting who want to introduce their, uh, their staff to some new thinking, and, uh, get your staff meeting off on the right foot with a good conversation.

So it comes with a couple questions and, uh, some new thinking and some things to get your staff meeting going. Okay, so today I'm joined by uh, mark Weisman, C M I O, for Peninsula, peninsula Regional Medical Center and fellow podcaster. As the host of the, uh, C M I O podcast. Uh, good morning Mark, and welcome to the show.

Good morning. Nice to, nice to meet you, uh, via, via web here. Wow. It's, it's, uh, it's always fun to have somebody else who does podcasting on the show 'cause, uh, so you know what I'm going through, you know, like the, uh, you know, is this actually recording? How is the sound gonna be? Is the lighting gonna be right?

I mean, all those things that, that go through your head. How, how long have you been doing your, uh, podcast? So I'm relatively new. Been been about six weeks now. Um, just was looking for the material that would be relevant to CMIOs. I'm, I listen to your show. I get a whole bunch of information outta that, but I wanted some more practical about what CMIOs go through.

I'm like, you know what? I don't see it. I'm just gonna make it. That's how I got into it. It's been about six weeks. It's been a lot of fun. I've had some great guests, got some really good ones coming up. So, uh, it's been amazing the community of, of providers who want to come on and share what they know.

I'm very thankful that they wanna do that because that, as you know, is a challenge, is to get people to, don't need just a little bit of time. Yeah. I I've really much, uh, maybe not how easy it is 'cause I'll tell you there, there are certain times, 'cause we do this every week, there are certain times during the year that it is hard to get people on.

Uh, you know, the summer is, is a little hard because people are vacationing and whatnot, and then you have budget season and it's hard to get people on. Uh, but for the most part, I found people want to give back to this community. And I think you're finding that with, uh, the CMIOs that you're reaching out to, that, uh, they're more than happy to share their success stories.

And, and that's what I'm gonna hit you up for in this show by the way, is, uh, success stories and things you've done in the, uh, C M I O role. Yeah, sure. Sure. All right. So let, let's start with, you know, first tell us a little bit about, uh, about your career and then, uh, peninsula Regional Medical Center. So, I've been in healthcare now, I'm a primary care physician, primarily do some hospice work, internal medicine, uh, trained.

And I got into more in the analytic side at first because I, I always realized that the one who had the data was winning the arguments, and I wanted to win the arguments. So I wanted to, so I got involved with the data, so, I really enjoyed that I was able to try to advance some quality things and, and look to see how can we make our medical group better.

And one of the reports that I got into started to show me wow, uh, our providers are closing their charts a lot late at night. And I was like, 50% of the providers. And it really bothered me. And so I, I started to shift my attention more towards the informatics side and how can we help providers be more efficient?

Became my passion. I really feel good when I make a provider feel that they've made their day easier. That's what fires me up and drives me now. That's, that's really my, um, passion. I still like analytics. It's still a lot of fun, but, uh, the mission behind making . Our clinicians, their life easier, so they're not burning out.

That's what, that's what gets me. That's where I'm at. So Peninsula, I've been the C M I at Peninsula Regional Medical Center now, a little over a year. And we're here in Maryland on the eastern shore. Um, we have a new mission statement, I think, which is we're gonna, um, assume every hospital that's nearby.

So we're , we're, uh, resistance is futile. You'll be assimilated. Um, so, uh, it's growing and presents some interesting challenges. So that's one of the reasons I was very interested because I knew they were gonna be growing and that's. It's interesting with all this, uh, & a activity and, and you're not the first person I've talked to that's, uh, that's doing this, but it, it, uh, it really does suck up a lot of time and a lot of focus.

I mean, you, you go in there saying, Hey, we're gonna, I wanna work with these physicians. I'm gonna make their life better. We're going to, you know, get them clocking out maybe at six o'clock instead of seven o'clock. Maybe not checking the E M R at 10 o'clock at night and those kind of things. But then you get, you get, there's sort of a, a whole bunch of activity that kicks off with m and a.

Um, how are you, how are you able to handle that or deal with that? That's a challenge. And so, uh, yeah. So I want to kick off an initiative for optimization on this particular group, and the analysts are fired up and ready. And then it's, uh, wait a second. We need to go start working on the build for bringing in this new group.

That's, um, that's a challenge. I think one of the struggles that we go through when doing this activity is what are the resources we're gonna need and getting them in place well in advance so that we can handle that growth At, uh, Sentara Healthcare, where I came from, we were growing 20% year over year, and we started to feel that you, you need to have those resources to still support the people that you brought on two years ago.

Otherwise they get kind of upset. So it's that balancing act and, uh, not fortunately I can bring to Peninsula some of that, Hey, I've, I've lived through 20% growth. I, um, this is what's gonna happen if we don't prepare for that. Right? And, and it's, it's interesting we talk about that, uh, or I talk about that with my clients a lot.

Just, you know, what's your m and a strategy? And they look at me like, well, what do you mean? I, you know, and I'm like, what is your m and a strategy in, in these terms, in that, you know, what's gonna happen? You know, you're gonna, you're gonna grow, even if you're a billion dollar health system, somebody in there is eyeing, how do you become 1.5 billion?

And if you're, if you're 20 billion, like some of these mega shops out there, you absolutely have to have an m and a strategy. And so it's, it's, uh, it's looking at, you know, what are the initial activities? What level of standardization can you drive, what are your strategies around the, uh, technologies? A lot of that stuff can be made before the acquisitions even.

Even done, uh, for the most part. And the successful ones tend to do that. They tend to say, Hey, when we're done this, uh, when we're done this acquisition, uh, you're coming on our E M R platform. When we're done this acquisition, we're going to consolidate on our, uh, on, on our systems or those kind of things, rather than the acquisition.

Kicking off a year long process to figure out things that, you know, essentially everyone already knows how it's gonna end. When you have an Epic and a Meditech shop coming together, uh, there's a, there's a 98% chance it's going epic. Um, but you know, still we spend a full year trying to figure out, you know, what's the best way we should go?

And it ends up where everyone thought it was gonna go. Anyway, this me just on on that. I, I'm, I'm curious, you know, as, as you're seeing that is that one of the bigger challenges is that as you're coming together, you have all these different builds and all these different EMRs, So we're an epic shop and one of the hospitals we're, we're probably going to acquire is the Cerner shop.

And we haven't quite gotten into, what is that going to look like? The, we do know that we don't want two EMRs. We, we are positive that we just want one. And the, but how that build is gonna look and, you know, the provider's, uh, so prior to the other hospital, a little nervous 'cause they know their EMR is the one that's changing.

Our providers are like, yeah, whatever. It's not not that big a deal for us. They're just adding some new people. . Um, but they, they're starting to think about that 'cause they know what it was like to go live through their first E M R and the first three to six months, no one likes their E M R. And so they're worried is it gonna be three to six months again and what's that learning curve gonna be like?

And my job is of course to try to soften that blow as best we can and try to make this as easy a transition. I think the transition from Cerner to Epic will be a lot easier than some of the other, um, conversions that. You make it a point to say that you're a practicing physician in the C M I O role.

Why? Why is that important? Why do you think that's important? So I think the, the worst life balance I ever had was when I was 0.5 admin and 0.5 clinical because it's not like one part of the role shuts off when the other part of the role is going on. Um, the patients are still needing things and your meeting is still going on.

I think there's a group of CMIOs who, who get that they're still practicing. I speak to a couple of my buddies. They're, they're, um, hospitalists and they're 0.5 and they're always juggling between the caseworker who's trying to get the patient outta the hospital and the analyst who's trying to do that meeting.

I think my colleagues get that and then there's the group that are no longer practicing and I think there's kind of smirking and going, you silly fool . You'll one day figure out that this is really tough to do this job well. But I still like the clinical and I still think it helps me stay connected to the providers.

And I also like to get my hands in the system and go, yeah, that navigator, that, that's horrible. How do we build that? So I still like to practice. I think it's important, um, and I'm gonna do it for as long as I can. Um, but I'm, I'm sure you have found that there are some people who are clinical eventually to say, I can't, I can't do it.

There's just too much. You know, one of the most impressive people in that category for me is Salka, who, uh, you know, was still working in the ER while doing like a million things. He was teaching at Harvard. He was doing innovation, he was on boards. He was, i I, I don't know how he did it actually. I do know how he did it.

All he did in sleep . That's right. Um, but, uh, you know, and, and he, he would also say, you know, it was important to be in the emr, E M R, uh, to experience what the, uh, physicians are, gave him a level of empathy, uh, for them. And he was able to, you know, in those meetings, it gives you a level, level of credibility to say, yeah, I'm working in the EMM r I see that as a problem.

You know, it's just, I don't know, just a connection with the people who are, uh, struggling. With the E M R when I'm doing a demo in front of a large group of, of providers and, you know, I can say, okay, I'm going through this, this med rec process and it's a little clunky, but, you know, here's how I do it.

That I think resonates. I mean, I don't, my workflows, I don't know, anesthesia workflows, that's a foreign beast to me, but they kind of get it, that, that I know what they're going through and can pick up on certain problems. So, uh, I like having my hands dirty that way. It was interesting. My c i at, uh, St.

Joe's, uh, did, did not prac. I mean, he volunteered and did some stuff, but he, he did not practice per se. Uh, once he became the C M I O, of course, you know, it's a seven and a half billion dollar health system. We're consolidating, you know, 16, we have 16 hospitals. We're consolidating 10 different instances of the E M R to one.

Uh, those are, that is a full-time job in and of itself. But one of the things I found with him is he understood the m r enough. Um, but he was able to become very well versed in a lot of the other workflows. He was able to, uh, you know, go into oncology and, and into labor and delivery and whatnot. And he became so, uh, good at their workflows, which is an area he wasn't practicing in, uh, that he became, you know, a pretty effective liaison with, with just about any group within the, within the health system.

I'm not sure if, as I look at the future of CMIOs, whether all CMIOs will be practicing 10, 15 years from now as that role changes. Um, I, I, I think it's, it's difficult to balance. It's important. Um, it's not a 40 hour work week. No one, no one ever claimed it was going to be, and that's fine. Um, but none of us really expected that.

But it's. You know that, that exposure to what you, maintaining those relationships, but have still referring to people that you're working with. I think they, they appreciate the, the connectivity. All right, so we're gonna get, we're gonna get really practical, really pragmatic at this point. I'm just going to dive into some things, tap into your experience.

So give our listeners one or two ways that you've been able to make your, your clinic clinicians more effective. With technology. This could be at Sentara or at Peninsula. Just one or two. One or two wins. Yeah, so the, there's no easy button that you push and suddenly providers are home at five 30. Um, and that's one of the things that, talking to the providers, it, we've learned that it's really getting one-on-one with providers and optimizing them, finding the workflows.

Um, my biggest suggestion number one, is learn to delegate. I think that is the one of the biggest problems that. That's not an E M R, you know, issue. That is providers who they want to do it all and they feel a loss of control when they start to unload that to staff or to nursing or wherever it's going.

And it really cripples 'em, it really cripples their ability to spend the time with the patients, which is what they enjoy, and they get crushed by all of these menial tasks that they take on. So that's been one of my biggest challenges is getting providers to, to let go of some of that control and that things are still gonna be okay.

And they become more of a leader of the team, not the one who has to do everything on the team in terms of the, uh, the other part is to lead. They do need to tell people, this is what I need as a clinician to get this patient better. And that's leading the care team in terms of . Hey, I know Mrs. Jones, I know what's wrong with her and we need to be able to do X, Y, and Z to make her better.

And then telling someone to, this is how we're going to do it. They need to set that agenda. Uh, and doing that also helps. So neither one of those were really e M R related, but the e EMR is a tool through which a lot of these things happen. Yeah, so, you know, the, the, the E M R is a way that we're communicating across, uh, the care continuum as people sort of pass, uh, through the, through the health system.

And technology's interesting because if you sit down with a bunch of clinicians, you're not getting a, a rousing, Hey, we're so, we're so glad that technology is here, uh, and in play. Um, but a lot of that is, is due to the technology introducing, uh, new ways to do workflows and new ways to, uh, interact with patients.

And it is a cultural change. It's a, it's, the technology is requiring physicians to think different about how they acquire information, how they talk to their patient, how they interact with their patient. Um, but from a technologist standpoint, One of our jobs is to identify. When they're struggling. And, uh, it's interesting.

I, I was with a, uh, c i o who was showing me all this, um, uh, all, all the, this report he was getting, essentially it was an epic shop, but I've seen this also with other EMRs where they were able to identify the physicians that who were struggling. Uh, the ones that were doing way more clicks, the ones that were

Taking a lot longer in different workflows. Have you found it, uh, have you found the tools to get, uh, are getting better in terms of being proactive with physicians to identify which ones you want to get, uh, next to and, and really help with it? Yeah, so the tools are definitely an, um, we're also an Epic shop and we, epic has definitely advanced their tool set, which makes my job a lot easier so we can proactively see.

Who needs help. But one of the first mistakes that I made is I took some of the Epic data and I went up to provider, said, look, you're terrible. Um, you need to, that did not go very well. Let me, let encourage you not.

I now use that data to help me understand who I might want to go and engage with and see if they're willing to engage. Uh, a physician that is willing to engage is so much better than someone who's like, no, I'm good. I really, I don't want, yes, I like typing one click at a time. Every single character that goes into the E M R and I don't wanna use voice recognition, and I, I, I don't want my nurse to enter in the vitals.

I have to enter it all. That's someone that is not quite ready yet. They, they are either afraid of the technology or, you know, they're just happy with the way they're doing things. That's okay. That's okay. So I think the tools have gotten better. I like the tools. Um, we're starting to get into now, uh, user action logs where we can actually record the clicks and scrolls.

We'll take a workflow and we'll say, okay, um, we built the navigator this way. Now we change it and clean it up and say, okay, let's do it. Let's measure now. Kind of like some AB testing. And say, which is the better workflow? And that's been, that's been kind of insightful. We're just getting into that now and that, that's fun.

That's interesting. Um, let's talk about, let's talk about analytics a little bit. So how, you know, analytics is interesting. Uh, you have a, a lot of experience there. So how did you, how do you see governance really being structured around analytics at your, at, at your current organization or where have you seen it?

Be structured really well to, to really move the analytics function forward. So I think usually in an organization this happens because the end users, they aren't getting what they want and they start to scream a little bit and they're getting cranky and the reports are never right and of, well, that drives the data governance initiatives.

Of course, the report's not right. You haven't told us the definition of the metric you're trying to get at. So once the end user starts speaking up, now we know who's our partner. Now we know who's squeaking, and that's great. We're gonna convert that person to be one of our, on our team, and they're gonna help us with data governance 'cause they're going to give us those definitions.

So that's always been our first step is to get the definitions. Then we find that the analysts on the analytics team are overwhelmed because they're handling and trying to do all this reporting and they're cranking out hundreds of reports that no one's ever gonna look at, but they're, they become report writers and they're not doing analytics.

And of course there's a big difference there. And so, That usually drives the need for self-service. And Epic now has some good tools. I know others do as well. Give someone a nice clean sandbox to play in and say, you are safe in here. We drop a data visualization layer on top and say, have at it. Go explore this data.

I think. Then the data governance becomes now around, okay, how are we gonna prioritize the bigger projects, the ones that aren't self-service, the ones where we're gonna be making multimillion dollar decisions on. That's where I want my analysts starting to focus. And those are the, that priority starts to come from the operational leaders.

So those have been the governance challenges and what's driving them is the, is the end users start to squeak and then we can start to utilize that to drive the initiatives we want. Yeah. You know, it's interesting talk about self analytics. That was one of the areas that, um, the leadership where I was at kept pushing me.

And, uh, it, it's interesting they get, they get sort of spoiled outside of, uh, healthcare. And one of the things I heard over and over again is, you know, I can go to Google and ask this question, type it in, and it comes back with an answer. Um, for a certain subset of, of things within the health system, I'd like to know the census at a hospital.

I'd like to be able to type in a question just like I do within Google and say, what's the census at all of our hospitals today? And have it sort of pop back. Um, where, where do you think we are in terms of, uh, Maturity of self-service tools today. I mean, given, you know, one end would be, you know, Hey Siri, tell me this, just popping information back.

Actually my Siri just popped up. I don't want that to happen. , you said aloud. Um, or you know, that being one end of the spectrum where it just, you know, you, you speak it and it comes back to you. The other end being, you know, we're putting people in a sandbox and say, saying, Hey, this is, this is the start.

Of, um, the, the start of self-service, uh, where, where do you think we're at in terms of the maturity of that? So we did a pilot at Sentara and just a few years ago where the, the chief operating officer of the hospital would wake up and say, I think, I think it was Amazon. It was one of the, one of the, um, voice recognition tools and just said, Hey, what is the census of my hospital today?

And sure enough, it would spit back out, you know, we've got, uh, uh, 550 patients in beds and we have 20 beds that are empty and 15 of them are on isolation. And it gave a nice brief overview. It, it worked 60, 70% of the time. It was, it was not perfect. Um, but that technology's there. I mean, we could do that.

Today, I just don't know that that's the first priority that the analytics teams are going after now. Um, we should be able to though, have dashboards that alert us when certain parameters come out of range and that you walk into the morning and you can get a brief, you know, you put a flat screen TV on your wall and you wiggle your mouse and turn comes to life and you can start to see where's my organization today?

And more importantly, What do I need to see to make it better tomorrow? That predictive piece. Uh, if I'm trying, if I'm looking at an ambulatory practice and I see that, um, we have absolutely no access available next week because, you know, the doctors are all on vacation. We're all at the whatever conference that's coming up.

What am I doing about that as a leader to make sure our, our patients can be seen? That kind of information we can do today. And we started to do some of that at Sentara. Particularly we, we were working on those kind of predictive pieces. Yeah. Do you find, are you starting to play around with, uh, some of the machine learning and ai, AI tools provided by your, uh, your vendors, or is, is that still a little difficult at this point?

I think like most systems we're playing with it. The adoption is tough. Uh, the sepsis alert is going off a little bit too much that the providers don't believe it or it's, you know, it is going off so much. They're numb to it. Um, but we are playing with, yeah, we're using the, some of the predictive models now.

Um, The adoption is a struggle. Absolutely. It's, it's hitting either in the wrong spot in the workflow or it's just not delivering the insights. The doctor's going, yeah, I knew the patient with a white count of 20,000 with a temperature of 38 5 and is unconscious on the vent that they are septic. I knew that.

Thank you for telling me with that alert, but that one was not useful. So that's where we're at.

Well, let's let, actually I'd like to talk about your podcast a little bit and, uh, so the C M I O podcast, what's your, what's your mission, uh, or objective for the podcast? So this is just to create that repository of what can a, a practicing C M I O kind of expect out there. Um, you know, there's great organizations that cover informatics, AIA being one of them.

And it's, it's, it's very academic in my mind, the practical piece of, yeah, what do you do when the. The doctor says they're not gonna upgrade their phone to a smartphone, and yet you want to do two factor authentication to e-prescribed meds that that's not covered anywhere. Um, so it's those kinds of things which are just, we get hit with every day and they're the real practical.

So, um, no other objective than to inform, to, to entertain, to some degree and to try to just build a repository so that someone who's thinking of becoming A C M I O can go, yeah, what, what does A C M I O do all day? And what are the issues they're dealing with? And maybe share some, some things. I, you know, I love interviewing these guys 'cause I'm learning as they're speaking.

I'm soaking it up like a sponge. So it's been a great opportunity to do that. That's what I found as well is I'm, I'm learning so much that somebody said, you know, are you gonna be able to keep doing this? I'm like, I'm not sure how I'm gonna stop doing it. I mean, I'm learning so much. It's, it's been great.

How often do you do it and, uh, who do you, uh, alright, so how often, who do you plan to have on and key topics that you plan to explore in the fall? So I'm trying to do weekly and we've been able to do that. I'll cover like some news items also on, um, so I'm doing like twice a week now where one day is a news day really covering more of the clinical, uh, things that A C M I O might want to know about, Hey, this new, new thing's coming out and you might wanna think about your order sets because it's gonna impact that.

Um, and then I'm doing, uh, a guest, uh, which. Uh, uh, mostly I've been interviewing CMIOs. Uh, I've got a C N I O coming up. I'm very excited about that. I've got a certain c i o coming up who's sitting in front of me on the screen I'm very excited about. Um, and Lee Milligan in front of another c i o, he, he's also a C M I O who's coming on.

So I've got got some really great guests that have been willing to donate their time. Um, so it's been, it's been, it's been fun. Ask,

you know, How long, like what you say, can you continue to do it for as long as I can? 'cause I love getting that insight of some of these leaders. So is it tricky to do it as a staff member at Peninsula? I mean, do you. Do you have to get things cleared by your organization or did you sort of get it cleared ahead of time?

You know, it's not about me and it's not about Peninsula. When I'm interviewing a guest, it's about them. My, my audience doesn't wanna hear from me. . They want to hear from these experts. I think you, you found that, you try, I noticed when you're interviewing, you try to get them to do the talking. You want their insights to stand out.

So I, I really haven't found that I'm talking about Peninsula, a particularly large amount. Uh, I may go into my knowledge as a, as a doctor or things I picked up along the way from whichever system I've been with or just talking to other CMIOs. Um, but it's about them. It's not about me. Yeah. One, one of these times, maybe next year we'll get together doing, uh, Doing a, a podcast.

We were talking before we came on about how much automation you need to do and, and how you, uh, you know, how you get these things, uh, produced with, uh, as little impact to your, your job. And, you know, one of the little behind the scenes here is I'm, we're recording this week. Health it right now. As soon as we hang up, we're gonna, we're gonna flip podcast episode.

It'll end up, you know, Maybe, maybe an hour out of both of our days and, and, uh, and then obviously the production side. So it's, there is a way for people to get into this and, uh, there's definitely a need. I mean, your focus. Uh, on C M I O, my focus, uh, is really on, uh, uh, c i O and health, it and technology.

Uh, you know, there's a, there's a whole host. I'd love to see somebody really, uh, go after analytics and, uh, uh, data governance and that whole space. There's a. Ton of people to talk to in all of these areas and, and getting this, uh, this repository out there is, is, uh, fantastic. Hey, one last thing. Uh, uh, what would you, what would you leave CMIOs with, uh, who are listening to the show today?

Yeah, so. I think CMIOs need to continue that education and that learning and learning from each other. It's still relatively a new field. It is evolving, and I'm always fascinating to learn. Wow, this C M I O got their fingers into this. I just heard of A C M I O who became a, uh, a Chief Information Security Officer.

That's that, that blew my mind. Like, cool. Um, so staying current and learning about those things, I, I just, that's my, my encouragement to. To other CMIOs, stay connected with the community. Uh, 'cause we're all learning and growing together and making mistakes together. And maybe I can help save you from going up to that provider and saying, Hey, we looked at your data and you're absolutely horrible.

So don't do that. And, and I'm sure other CMIOs actually many have given me their life experiences of things to do and things not to do. Cool. Well thanks for coming on the show. How, uh, how can people get to your show? How can they follow you? The best way to follow me is LinkedIn. I'm, I'm always on that, and C M I O podcast is available through, uh, you know, your Apple or Google Play or, uh, it's where you find most podcasts.

So, uh, come check us out. Yeah. Do you, you have a website as well, right? C mio podcast.com? That's correct. Yeah, and you and I are talking about, I'm, I'm looking at ways to incorporate, uh, some of your content onto, uh, this week in health IT websites so that people can come there, find your podcast, and, uh, and I, you know, I, I think it's such great, uh, great to have you in the podcast community.

Thank you. I appreciate it. So please come back every Friday for more great interviews with influencers. And don't forget, every Tuesday we take a look at the news, which is impacting Health It. This show is a production of this week in Health It. For more great content, you can check out our website at this week, health.com or the YouTube channel this week, health.com, and you just click on that link on the top of the page.

Thanks for listening. That's all for now.