It’s true what they say that it’s lonely at the top. Former CEO Todd Ordal says he gets where CEOs are coming from because he’s worn their moccasins and felt their pain. Todd’s new company, Applied Strategy, was developed over years and years of screwing up and making mistakes. He now works with CEOs and helps them lead better, profit more, and sleep soundly at night with coaching strategies that work and has more organizational effectiveness. Todd talks about the problems he came across and the growing pains of setting and building up an organization.

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Applied Strategy: Helping CEOs Lead Better with Todd Ordal

In this episode, we have Todd Ordal who is the CEO of Applied Strategy. He is the author of Never Kick a Cow Chip on a Hot Day, a great book. I’ve been through the book. I would recommend if you have not. It is a how-to and it tells you specific things you can do. Todd, thanks so much for being a guest on the show. 

Thank you, Bob. Welcome to the People’s Republic of Boulder.

Tell us a little bit about your business and who you serve. 

I’m a former CEO and I now work with CEOs and help them lead better, profit more, and sleep soundly at night and hopefully without narcotics. That looks like coaching strategy work and has more organizational effectiveness, mostly CEOs of $50 million to $10 billion in range that I work with. Industry diagnostic and my work’s all over the country, a little bit of international. I hail from Boulder but don’t do much work here.

For the folks who don’t know your background, when you’re out in the space, there are a lot of consultants around on there. You did this for a living before consulting?

Yes. The reason I have a voice in this world is that there are all the mistakes I’ve probably made so there’s not much that my clients can screw up that I haven’t already screwed up. I can hopefully help them make different mistakes. I’m an operating guy so I can come at this coaching consulting thing from a senior’s perspective as opposed to a psyche community. I got an undergrad in psych, but I’ve made all of those mistakes. I had been in their moccasins and felt their pain and know it’s lonely at the top, so I get where they’re coming from.

I was going through your book before the show and you have experience with Kinko’s and some rather large store. Let’s talk a little bit of the backstory or background of you and Kinko’s. 

I stumbled into Kinko’s on a college long family connection, ran a store, then ran more and more stores. I eventually ended up on the board there and had 7,000 people working for me. This was during the growth years of Kinko’s and we just had an absolute blast. Building that company was so fun and I was there for twenty years. It was just a riot. In fact, one of your friends, Larry Hay, used to work for me when I was at Kinko’s, but I had a division office here. We eventually rolled that thing up and sold it to a private equity firm. I stayed for three years after that and ran a couple of other smaller organizations. That’s the short story.

You were working for Kinko’s and for those that don’t know, it’s an office supply event, correct? 

FedEx eventually bought them. They killed the name but it has been FedEx Office, which you would probably know them as now, that’s closest thing to what it was.

There’s that time frame and you see it grow, you see the growing pains. I would imagine pretty much every problem that you could run across, you ran across. That’s part of the employment. There’s at some point where the organization started to mature. You guys were approached by the private equity group. When the offer first came in, not the specifics, but what was going through your mind after twenty years at Kinko’s?

It was our desire to sell the organization. I was not a large equity holder, but very unusual structures. You’re a financial expert so you’ll appreciate this. It was 128 different escorts with an umbrella organization. The question was how do we get out of this thing? There were three problems that we had at that point. Number one, if I’m partnering with the founder and I own a handful of stores, let’s say Oklahoma City is my territory and I own five stores in Oklahoma City, what do I do with them? How do I get out of this? I can’t release my capital tied up here.

Number two, the Internet was just coming around. We had to learn how to spell it back then. It’s like, “I wonder how we leverage the network effect of all these stores we now have?” Because we were not at that point.” There was a reinvestment piece. A lot of those owners were not reinvesting in their business and this is what we’re about to put in wide area networks, mobile area networks, some of the technology expenses that’s happening, the capital expense we had to start working on. People were unwilling to do that. How do we solve all those problems? We got to sell the company. We brought Goldman in and he helped us package it. It took us about three years of hard work pulling up together to get it ready to sell and then we went out to the market with it. That’s the way that thing happened.

That’s probably the first circumstance like that I’d heard of. It’s all packaged up, Goldman’s done whatever they’re going to do, and you’d finally get an offer. When you came home and talked to your bride and said, “Honey, I think it’s going to sell,” and then it sold. What was that like for you mentally knowing that it went from Kinko’s that you know to Kinko’s sold to another entity? 

My perspective was not so much as a shareholder because I did have equity in a few stores, but I was more of a hired gun and some of the partners weren’t. At that point, I had enthusiasm for new ideas, a new capital, and new ways of doing business coming into the company. There’s a whole lot of work to be done because it was 128 different S-corps on December 31st, turned into a C-corp January 1. All of a sudden you’ve got 128 different HR platforms, payable platforms, and leadership styles that have to be resolved. It was an awful lot of work. A lot of the original founders left. We ended up replacing a lot of that homegrown talent with some folks who had more traditional business skills. I was enthused when we got the same pull together. I also was of the belief that if we didn’t do something then we’re going to start to deteriorate.

When we rolled it up, we were still growing 30% a year. It’s still a very healthy growing business but I knew that without some leadership changes, without changing the way we’re doing things, it was not going to continue. I had enthusiasm for it. Some of the equity folks, those people who owned ten, fifteen, twenty stores who weren’t working that hard probably reduced just a big payday for them. For me, it was more about what’s the next big job. Which is what turned into for me. It was fun.

You went through the transition melding the other hundred plus HR systems. You get to the period where your career ended with the new entity and you transitioned into the next career, which was what?

When I transitioned to the end of that one was 45 days of skiing and a couple of trips to Ireland with my kids just for fun. I don’t mind telling you the story. I ended up working for a guy. The roll-up was fun. We brought in a whole bunch of senior leaders and I ended up in one of those senior leadership roles. At one point three years after the roll-up, I ended up working for a guy who I had zero respect for and that one didn’t work. I said, “After twenty years of fun, I don’t want to ruin this.” I don’t know if you had any similar experiences in your life or not. I left without knowing what I was going to do. For the first time in my life, I had to go find something to do.

The people you thought were good friends turned out to be only business associates.

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What was that like?

It was humbling and in fact, I didn’t tell my wife I was going to do it. It was during a phone call and this guy wants again something and I thought it was just ridiculous. I just said, “This isn’t going to work. Let’s figure out a way for me to get out of here.” They asked me to stay for six months. It was an interesting experience, but to go look for a job initially scared the hell out of me. I came back from my hiatus and all that skiing and I walked into my office, I was like, “I wonder if I unplugged my phone. It hasn’t rung for a long time.” The people you thought were good friends turned out to be only business associates. Some other folks whom you didn’t know at all were willing to jump over a blazing fire to help you. I thought it was a fascinating experience.

We had four young kids at that time and we determined that we were going to stay in Boulder. The natural thing for me was to go be a multi-unit retail guy somewhere in a big city. I said, “I’m just going to do that, so I’m going to figure it out here.” I ended up running some smaller organizations in a sporting goods company. It was the first CEO gig which was a turnaround thing that I did for a private equity firm and that was a mess. I’m happy to share that story.

We talked about stories before. In the age of all the technology and all of a sudden, I still think that we’re all very well-wired for the story side. I think that’s both in our preference. Going from this massive organization, then you did the consolidation of all the back office and left there for integrity reasons sounds like a good idea.

Twice in my career, I did that.

You only get your integrity one time, then you go to a massive turnaround situation. There may be a lesson or two in there. Let’s dig into that. 

There are a number of lessons that I learned. This thing had been started by two entrepreneurial smart young founders and they had grown rapidly. They took an investment from a PE firm and the wheels fell off very quickly. One of the founders left and they asked me to come in and fix it. Banking covenants are broken, we got manufacturing problems in China, product recall issues. It was a disaster and I didn’t know that business model or whatsoever. I had never been to China. I’m selling through that retail channel and dealing with the clowns in that industry. There were a bunch of them. Interestingly, that industry at the time, a lot of the executives were former frustrated high school football player. You’d understand what they’re all about.

We fought fires for two or three months and that thing was about ready to go broke. We got them out of the tailspin and about three months in, I walked into my office one day and I thought, “That fire is smoldering. This one’s smoldering. The bank’s relatively happy. I’ve been to China and done some work there. I got half of the team who now like me because I was the fixer guy. The other half still hated me, but that’s okay. What do I do now?” I’m not out of answers, I’m out of questions. For me, that was a seminal moment.

If I can share a quick story about that time I had read this vignette about a guy who won the Nobel Prize. His name is Isidor Rabi. In his acceptance speech, it was for Physics, he credited his mother and he said, “When I was a little boy, I would go home, and all the other children’s parents would say, “Did you get the right answers today?” My mother would say, “Isi, did you ask a good question today?” For some reason that just resonated with me, so I shut my door in my office and I thought, “What are the questions I have to ask to be able to succeed in this environment?” I guess it was self-learning through that. I crafted this list of questions to keep me on track. That was perhaps one of the most similar learning experiences I had in my career frankly.

You talked about that in your book. I think about the evolution you got from a long career in one firm, the transition from that into private equity firm and then departure from there and doing a turnaround. Obviously, the turnaround worked.

We got them going again. I got recruited with a good way to a startup. I had that experience as well. I then went onto another interim CEO thing and eventually came into this consulting coaching world. I just experienced an awful lot of stuff, made a lot of mistakes, and that allowed me to have some context when I’m working with clients now, trying to help them figure out, how do I solve this problem, how I get to the next level, how do I get through the crap I’m going through on a daily basis, because I get where they’re coming from. I feel their pain.

Shifting gears a little bit, we’ve touched on some of your backstories and you’re now in the consulting role. When you left the employment and operating world and you went into the consulting world, what do you think are the key differences between running a company and running a consulting firm? 

A lot of folks who have operating backgrounds at one point in their career say, “I’d liked to be self-employed. Perhaps I’ll go consult.” What they don’t realize is running things and helping others run things is way different. The biggest issue is you have to hold back and not share the answers. You got to ask questions. I don’t show up in buildings and tell people what to do. What I do is try and bring good questions and help them sort through their own problems. It’s the process part of consulting that has to be learned. I can still leverage my business back on all those mistakes and some of the successes I had, but I have to do it in a different way.

It’s not show up and tell them what to do. It’s showing up and ask them questions to get them to come to their own answers. It’s the process of consulting and the process of coaching. I spent oodles and oodles of money and time learning that after leaving the average career. Much like you’ve been, you spend a lot of money and time learning how to do these podcasts venture you’re doing. I see people make that mistake. They think I run something, therefore I can consult and that’s not the case. It’s a different skill set.

Applied Strategy: I enjoy relationships and conversation. Life’s about conversations. How do I get into more conversations?

You’re either working or looking for work. From many of the consultants that I ran across, you’re either good at one or the other and it’s rare that you enjoy both.

I had to learn to enjoy looking for work. I just view it as a puzzle at this point and that makes it fun for me. Like you, I enjoy relationships and conversation. Life’s about conversations. How do I get into more conversations? I enjoy that piece of it as well. The client work itself is fun as well, but I don’t mind the marketing piece of it. Learning to balance that as a solo premier is difficult. You go from 7,000 employees to zero.

I think about the continuum reference to snow skiing. For you, when you went on some of your ski trips, did you find that that was useful when you were thinking about your clients or did much come to you on the slope? 

Yes, it does. I do my best thinking sometimes in a chairlift, at least that’s my way of justifying. One of the things that probably both you and I have to do is set aside that time to reflect and think about what’s working and what’s not and how can I apply previous experiences to current experiences. I build in time in my weekend and every day to do that. In fact, I have a list of eight questions I ask myself every night. I score myself on them as a reflection tool.

I learned that from a guy by the name of Marshall Goldsmith who’s a very famous coach. It keeps me oriented. You have to find that time, especially doing the work I’m doing. There are some consultants who are very process oriented. They’re helping folks install SAP, which would bore the hell out of me quite frankly, but their work is different. That’s different work than I do. Mine is more about thinking. How do I help this woman, or this man think through the issues they have? This is a reflective work.

How did this most recent fly-fishing illness arrive? 

My brother and his wife came out to visit. We were both executives. He said, “We should go fly fishing.” I said, “Sure. I’ll find a guide,” and we did. I had done it before, but the bug didn’t catch me back then. We went out and had just a wonderful day up in Rocky Mountain National Park. We caught mostly six or seven-inch trout which was fun. It was fun enough that I went back out with that guide a few times and I said, “Would you help me buy a gear?” and I did.

I’ve been out with a bunch of other guides. Now it just turned into an addiction. Once as we sit here and it’s June, I’ve probably been out from January through June. I bet I got 30 days in already. Some of it are partial days and some of them are in the snow and I lasted fifteen minutes. It is the most peaceful activity. Standing in some moving water and watching that thing float until something grabs it. It’s just fun.

I think about people that don’t have the fishing affliction. I’m wondering why into it is a great deal and things come unbidden. You think about it and it comes in and maybe two disparate thought processes link up for those folks and for the guy that’s gotten us to the grindstone a 100% of the time. I would urge whoever’s listening that doesn’t have a bad affliction like you do bicycling or skiing. My sport was water skiing. 

Thinking a little bit in your book, you mentioned that your son served in the Marine Corps. I think about the role of the parent at some point when they’re younger, it’s more you do, and they by and large most of the time. How do you see your role changing from pre-service to post service for your son?

I admire all my kids. We have four. Danny specifically, he’s always just been a very service oriented young man. He would come home from school and watch the Military Channel.

My kids are 28 and 30, I think of what I’m doing now versus maybe what I thought I would be doing. Being that you’re a consultant and a coach, I was curious where you see those things crossing over with your kids.

I now realize that when they were about five, they quit listening to me. I don’t tell them what to do anymore. In fact, it’s interesting I find myself calling my kids for advice occasionally now, which is fun. The table is turned. Learning from our kids is an interesting venture as they get older. One of our daughters is very much like my wife who’s