Shownotes
Motivational Quote
Business Inspiration
A chance dinner conversation and the meeting for coffee that changed Karl’s life [5:43]Candle Flickering Moments
Taking the chance on a new location different from their already successful model [26:03]Business Building Insights
Staying true to your own entrepreneurial interests [13:42] Karl’s advice on surviving as a retailer [17:10] The second retail store changes everything [18:28] Karl describes how Cooks of Crocus Hill is different from everyone else [20:58] The web strategy [22:20] What’s next – another new location! [30:28] Winning the Global Innovators Award [38:21]Success Trait
Perseverance and Persistence are the natural traits leading to Karl’s success.Productivity/Lifestyle Tool
The Mobius Method and it’s value in their business [35:12]
Contact Links
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Transcripts
Gift biz on wrapped episode 62.
Speaker:I said,
Speaker:no. He said,
Speaker:keep thinking about it.
Speaker:I said,
Speaker:no, he's I keep thinking about it.
Speaker:I said,
Speaker:no. He said,
Speaker:okay, I'm going to set up coffee.
Speaker:Hi, this is Johnny Entrepreneur on fire,
Speaker:and you're listening to gift to biz unwrapped.
Speaker:And now it's time to light it up.
Speaker:Welcome to gift biz,
Speaker:unwrapped your source for industry specific insights and advice to develop
Speaker:and grow your business.
Speaker:And now here's your host,
Speaker:Sue Monheit.
Speaker:Hi, I'm Sue and welcome to the unwrapped podcast.
Speaker:Whether you own a brick and mortar store sell online or
Speaker:are just getting started,
Speaker:you'll discover new insight to gain traction and to grow your
Speaker:business. And today we have joining us.
Speaker:Carl Benson.
Speaker:Carl has been the owner of Cook's of Crocus Hill in
Speaker:St. Paul Minnesota for the last 15 years,
Speaker:hooks is a brand driven specialty,
Speaker:culinary retailer and educator focused on the belief that life happens
Speaker:in the kitchen.
Speaker:Carl is also the founder and creator of life recipe,
Speaker:a corporate wellness program,
Speaker:focusing on changing the way people eat and improving their relationship
Speaker:with food.
Speaker:Terrell has a passion for creating and delivering a thoughtful,
Speaker:stylish and energetic brand experience.
Speaker:He's worked on a variety of branding projects with domestic and
Speaker:international clients,
Speaker:including target health partners and the Mayo clinic.
Speaker:Thank you so much for joining us today,
Speaker:Carl, and welcome to the show.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Thanks for having me before we get started.
Speaker:And as our listeners know,
Speaker:we like to get a little bit of a different insight
Speaker:into who you are by having you describe a motivational candle.
Speaker:So if you could create any type of candle you wanted,
Speaker:what color would it be and what would the quote be
Speaker:on your candle?
Speaker:The color would be white and the quote is I was
Speaker:born a man.
Speaker:I died a doctor.
Speaker:Ooh, what does that mean?
Speaker:Kind Of funny,
Speaker:isn't it?
Speaker:I guess it's kind of a sad quote in some respects
Speaker:that there was a guy,
Speaker:his name is Martin Lloyd Jones.
Speaker:And he wrote in the context of,
Speaker:as people sort of live their lives,
Speaker:as they start at one thing,
Speaker:they get motivated to become something else and they ultimately died
Speaker:what they achieved.
Speaker:They didn't die what they were.
Speaker:And he said that whole cemeteries could be filled with the
Speaker:same sad tombstone.
Speaker:And that is that I was born a man and I
Speaker:died a doctor it's motivating to me,
Speaker:I suppose,
Speaker:because I think I'd prefer to be always having lived the
Speaker:man not having lived the end result or the goal or
Speaker:the objective that I didn't become something.
Speaker:Maybe I became a better person or I became more fulfilled
Speaker:in my pursuit of humanity,
Speaker:if that's the right word or my soul,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:soul kind of an odd word.
Speaker:But Yeah,
Speaker:I know what you're saying because especially as entrepreneurs and when
Speaker:we have a business,
Speaker:our whole life seems to be revolving around that.
Speaker:And it ends up being that you associate yourself with what
Speaker:your business is,
Speaker:not with the type of person that you are.
Speaker:Exactly. That if you become defined by your business,
Speaker:then you're not defined by the person that you are or
Speaker:wish to be,
Speaker:or have become or wish to pursue.
Speaker:Yeah. It's a deep quote if you really think about it
Speaker:and it is so easy.
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:what do we do when we're at networking meetings or you're
Speaker:even you're meeting somebody at a social event.
Speaker:What's the first thing we usually ask,
Speaker:Oh, well,
Speaker:what do you do?
Speaker:What's your job,
Speaker:help me understand you.
Speaker:Exactly. And I think it's important to understand that there is
Speaker:a whole nother human being,
Speaker:besides just what you do for your career,
Speaker:whether you're in your own business or not,
Speaker:you work for a corporation,
Speaker:whatever. Wonderful.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:So I want to talk,
Speaker:I'm so excited because I have known cooks before I even
Speaker:knew about you,
Speaker:Carl, because I used to get your brochures when they,
Speaker:and I shouldn't even call it a brochure.
Speaker:I think it was a catalog when you used to send
Speaker:those out via mail.
Speaker:So I knew about the business.
Speaker:I love cooking as a hobby.
Speaker:So now to know you and to hear the story about
Speaker:how the whole business developed is super exciting to me.
Speaker:So it's pretty cool.
Speaker:It's pretty fun business.
Speaker:Yeah. So I want you to take it away from the
Speaker:beginning in terms of how you got connected with cooks and
Speaker:ultimately became an owner.
Speaker:I live here in St.
Speaker:Paul, Minnesota,
Speaker:and I'm from Chicago.
Speaker:I moved up here in 1990 and I left my Chicago
Speaker:corporate job behind moved to Minnesota.
Speaker:Ultimately after searching for a new position,
Speaker:I sort of got the dream position of my life,
Speaker:working for a multinational packaging company with a very state-of-the-art facility
Speaker:in Mexico.
Speaker:And they asked me to be the director of export sales.
Speaker:So I had every market outside of Mexico,
Speaker:which included the U S Europe and the far East.
Speaker:And it was a very specialized item,
Speaker:big demand globally.
Speaker:And after all the negotiations,
Speaker:ultimately they wanted me to move back to Dallas where I
Speaker:had started beers before and decided I wanted to stay.
Speaker:I'd moved three times and didn't want to make another move.
Speaker:So I sort of left the corporate world.
Speaker:I did a few things here trying to figure out sort
Speaker:of my next path.
Speaker:And I always cooked dinner for my next door neighbor.
Speaker:He had a young family and we didn't have kids at
Speaker:that point.
Speaker:So, and I like to cook and Russ like to pay
Speaker:for dinner.
Speaker:So it was awesome.
Speaker:Every Sunday afternoon,
Speaker:he'd swing by,
Speaker:after he came back from church and he'd say,
Speaker:here's 40 bucks.
Speaker:I'm thinking lamb tonight.
Speaker:Can you make up something with lamps?
Speaker:So I would go to the grocery store and get the
Speaker:food, cook it at my house and then bring the food
Speaker:over to and Nancy's house.
Speaker:And then we'd have dinner with them and their family.
Speaker:And then Russ would do the dishes.
Speaker:And sometime during the week,
Speaker:I'd get my dishes back.
Speaker:So it was worked out really well.
Speaker:And at one of these gatherings,
Speaker:he had a friend of his that he'd invited for dinner.
Speaker:And I was talking with this other gentleman,
Speaker:his name was David.
Speaker:And he was asking me about,
Speaker:I'd started a software business with some other guys.
Speaker:And I was at a loggerhead with say the managing partner.
Speaker:And David said,
Speaker:well, you like to cook,
Speaker:so you should go check out.
Speaker:Cook's a Crocus Hill.
Speaker:And I didn't really know.
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:I'd forgotten where it was.
Speaker:And he said,
Speaker:Alex, that cooking store up on grand Avenue.
Speaker:I said,
Speaker:well, I,
Speaker:man, it's kind of depressing in there.
Speaker:So I only went there once and I haven't been back
Speaker:in, I don't know anything about retail and I know less
Speaker:about a cooking store.
Speaker:So yeah,
Speaker:it's probably not something that I'd like to pursue.
Speaker:Were they looking for somebody at that time?
Speaker:Is that why he was suggesting it or just because of
Speaker:your passion for cooking?
Speaker:David knew the lady who owned it,
Speaker:her name is Martha Kimmer and Martha had started it in
Speaker:19. I think she started in 1973 or 74,
Speaker:and this was probably 91.
Speaker:So they'd gone through some evolutions and changes.
Speaker:And Martha was pulled in a lot of different directions with
Speaker:her family and family business.
Speaker:And she really needed someone that was going to run it
Speaker:and take it over and just sort of go for it.
Speaker:So she was actively looking for somebody she was Looking.
Speaker:Yes. The only time I worked in a retail store was
Speaker:I worked at the Tom McCann shoe store in high school.
Speaker:So I That's a name from the past.
Speaker:I said,
Speaker:no. He said,
Speaker:keep thinking about it.
Speaker:I said,
Speaker:no, he's like,
Speaker:keep thinking about it.
Speaker:I said,
Speaker:no. He said,
Speaker:okay, I'm going to set up coffee.
Speaker:And I was like,
Speaker:David, I don't really want to do this.
Speaker:And he said,
Speaker:well, just do it for me.
Speaker:When you meet Martha,
Speaker:you'll fall in love with her and things will go from
Speaker:there. So I dunno after dessert or something,
Speaker:I relented and said,
Speaker:all right,
Speaker:and you set up coffee and I'll have coffee.
Speaker:So that was on Sunday.
Speaker:I got a call that she could meet on Thursday.
Speaker:So I met with her on Thursday.
Speaker:I met with her business advisor on Monday.
Speaker:They made me an offer on Tuesday.
Speaker:I quit on Wednesday and 10 short days.
Speaker:My whole life changed.
Speaker:It was the single most pivotal and possibly the most important
Speaker:decision in my career anyway,
Speaker:never in my life,
Speaker:even my,
Speaker:my life.
Speaker:I look back on it now and think it was such
Speaker:a fast and easy decision that where was my resistance on
Speaker:their front end.
Speaker:And so it's been Awesome.
Speaker:Yeah. So Carl,
Speaker:that's crazy that you turned things around that fast.
Speaker:What was it that she said because you were so resistant,
Speaker:it sounded like you just didn't think that that was something
Speaker:that you'd be interested in.
Speaker:What was the trigger that got you interested enough to make
Speaker:a change so quickly?
Speaker:I think it was her.
Speaker:Martha's just lovely,
Speaker:lovely person.
Speaker:And yeah,
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:I was really clear.
Speaker:I had no desire to be a shopkeeper.
Speaker:There's some,
Speaker:I suppose,
Speaker:the romance to the not,
Speaker:I suppose there's a ton of romance to cooking and food
Speaker:and all that kind of thing.
Speaker:But I really wasn't wired to walk around the store and
Speaker:my corks sold shoes and sell pots and pans for a
Speaker:living. So I think we aligned on a vision for what
Speaker:the business could be and that there was so much more
Speaker:to it than just a transactional side of selling pots and
Speaker:pans or selling potato peelers,
Speaker:that if we did something good,
Speaker:it was about experience and it was about life and it
Speaker:was about connection and Martha got it.
Speaker:And for whatever reason at that juncture in my life,
Speaker:I found that sort of story to be super compelling and
Speaker:it was easy.
Speaker:It was ultimately an easy decision.
Speaker:It changed my whole life.
Speaker:I had to take a big step back.
Speaker:I was stepping off the,
Speaker:a corporate train if you willing stepping onto the independent tricycle.
Speaker:So there was a huge life change,
Speaker:but it was awesome,
Speaker:But kudos to you because you clearly felt that it was
Speaker:right and you took the opportunity while it was there.
Speaker:And what was presented to you because who knows if next
Speaker:week she would have been talking to someone else who would
Speaker:have been interested.
Speaker:And if you would have just paused for a while or
Speaker:thought that you needed to reconsider or just really think about
Speaker:it too long,
Speaker:the opportunity could have passed you by It could have passed
Speaker:me by,
Speaker:or they could have.
Speaker:I think ultimately,
Speaker:because I was so honest in what I was looking for
Speaker:and, you know,
Speaker:I, you know,
Speaker:there were the other people I'm sure.
Speaker:And I just haven't heard over the years,
Speaker:you just,
Speaker:the story as the story gets handed down,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:from generation to generation,
Speaker:as it were the other people who they talked to were
Speaker:retail people,
Speaker:they were store managers and they were shopkeepers and someone who
Speaker:really connected to the brand and connected to the work.
Speaker:And ultimately Martha decided that her vision for the business was
Speaker:that it wasn't about the same thing.
Speaker:We shared the vision and that mine was different than anybody
Speaker:else's. And she took a huge risk on me.
Speaker:And I took a huge risk with her,
Speaker:but it was the connection point was that as much higher
Speaker:level. And that's probably why we're still doing what we're doing.
Speaker:There's a couple of things here I want to highlight for
Speaker:our listeners.
Speaker:The first thing is,
Speaker:and this is something that's just become a realization to me
Speaker:recently. And Carl,
Speaker:this is what you experienced is sometimes people who are close
Speaker:to us,
Speaker:whether it's family or friends recognize things in us that we
Speaker:don't recognize in ourselves,
Speaker:your friend David kept saying to you over and over again,
Speaker:no, you got to look at this opportunity.
Speaker:I see this possibly for you.
Speaker:You've got to consider this opportunity and had he not done
Speaker:that? I think like you are going to owe him dinners
Speaker:for the rest of your life,
Speaker:probably because had he not pushed you and pushed you,
Speaker:you would have never had coffee and ultimately gone the direction
Speaker:that you did.
Speaker:So that's the first thing you guys is.
Speaker:If you have friends who keep pulling out to you,
Speaker:some trait that you have some skill and you just aren't
Speaker:seeing it,
Speaker:at least rethink it and pay attention to what they're saying
Speaker:and consider what they're focusing and emphasizing about who you are.
Speaker:So I wouldn't even add,
Speaker:if you don't mind,
Speaker:I'll add to that.
Speaker:I'll say that I have a friend who is an organizational
Speaker:development coach,
Speaker:and he's also a hippie,
Speaker:like was a real 1968 drive the micro bus that he
Speaker:bought in Minnesota to Southern California to be in his life
Speaker:work was to be a hippie.
Speaker:And now fast forward to today,
Speaker:he does development work for both individuals and companies.
Speaker:And Patrick has a,
Speaker:his sort of belief is that if you're open to everything
Speaker:around you,
Speaker:I think what happens is we tend to get so zeroed
Speaker:in on our intentions and desires that we lose sight of
Speaker:other opportunities.
Speaker:So the serendipity of just David coming after me and me,
Speaker:ultimately, whatever the motivation was,
Speaker:if I was just to get him off my back,
Speaker:or I thought,
Speaker:well, it doesn't matter if it's this good,
Speaker:I'll at least have a cup of coffee.
Speaker:That being open to that,
Speaker:because you never know where it's going to come from.
Speaker:In the case of your friends telling you this is something
Speaker:you should pursue,
Speaker:or you're reading an article in the paper and something strikes
Speaker:you or your place of worship and somebody in your congregation
Speaker:says, Hey,
Speaker:you should consider this,
Speaker:that or the other.
Speaker:It's just being open to the opportunities that life might present
Speaker:itself. And if we're closed,
Speaker:then those things we just miss them altogether.
Speaker:We don't even have the chance to say yes or no
Speaker:because they just sort of pass us by Well stated.
Speaker:Thank you for adding on that's fabulous.
Speaker:The second thing that I wanted to focus on was you
Speaker:talking about the fact that no,
Speaker:you weren't good.
Speaker:You weren't interested in being in aisles and selling pots and
Speaker:pans for the rest of your life.
Speaker:And one thing all of us need to remember is that
Speaker:being an employee in a shop,
Speaker:whether you do the books or you do an inventory,
Speaker:or you're on the sales floor is very different than being
Speaker:the owner of the business.
Speaker:There's a whole,
Speaker:whole different ball game when you own something,
Speaker:when you're an entrepreneur.
Speaker:So those of you who are thinking of considering a business,
Speaker:if you are working in a retail shop and you're like,
Speaker:Oh, I could do this so much better.
Speaker:They're just seeing the tip of the iceberg of what a
Speaker:business owner has to go through.
Speaker:If you like business,
Speaker:you like directing,
Speaker:steering the ship.
Speaker:If you will,
Speaker:you were hearing Carl say that he really didn't like cooks
Speaker:in the beginning.
Speaker:It looked stale or dark or not an exciting environment.
Speaker:We're going to get into how that's changed now,
Speaker:but think a little differently than just owning versus experiencing being
Speaker:in a shopper,
Speaker:working for a shop,
Speaker:two very different things.
Speaker:Would you say anything else about that,
Speaker:Carl? Well,
Speaker:I think it's come up both inside and outside of my
Speaker:business that identifying what your connection to the business is and
Speaker:how you get inspired and how you wish to grow based
Speaker:on your desire.
Speaker:So in my case,
Speaker:I didn't want to be a shopkeeper.
Speaker:So we made a lot of decisions over the last 17
Speaker:years that aligned with I wasn't going to work the cash
Speaker:register. And I mean,
Speaker:not that I can't,
Speaker:but I always felt like if we were going to get
Speaker:to where we wanted to go,
Speaker:that I needed to be looking,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:maybe at a higher level.
Speaker:And in the,
Speaker:in our time in business,
Speaker:I've met many,
Speaker:many people who have very successful small businesses,
Speaker:cooking stores around the country,
Speaker:where the owner has a completely different perspective.
Speaker:They want to be the shopkeeper.
Speaker:Their goal is to be on the floor and talking with
Speaker:customers every day,
Speaker:they might do all the buying and be the shopkeeper and
Speaker:do the payroll.
Speaker:And that's their connection point to their business.
Speaker:And that's where they find inspiration.
Speaker:So in the environment,
Speaker:when that person who finds success at the detail side of
Speaker:their business starts looking to expand.
Speaker:Then it becomes important to say,
Speaker:where are your skillsets,
Speaker:desires and intentions,
Speaker:because what often happens?
Speaker:And I think this is any small business.
Speaker:When you go from one location that achieves a level of
Speaker:success, whatever that is.
Speaker:And then you start to look at a second location,
Speaker:your relationship with your business changes.
Speaker:It's not as easy to continue to be the happy,
Speaker:inspired shopkeeper.
Speaker:When you have two shops or your shop gets big,
Speaker:or you add a restaurant component to your shop,
Speaker:or you are taken away by the internet side of things,
Speaker:holding your vision for your relationship with the business is paramount.
Speaker:And without that vision,
Speaker:it's hard to make really consistent sustainable decisions because you're sorta
Speaker:like a boat in the water.
Speaker:If we borrow that analogy and the waves keep bashing against
Speaker:you in the way that you're going to be successful is
Speaker:to be clear and where you're going to be the rudder.
Speaker:And that rudder is first and foremost,
Speaker:what your contribution yourself is to your business.
Speaker:So working on the business versus in the business.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:And you know,
Speaker:when you're small and when you're starting and when your inspiration
Speaker:is to improve upon the people before you are to have
Speaker:a better buying program or whatever,
Speaker:whatever your stake in the game as it works great,
Speaker:because the context is perfect and the scale and the size
Speaker:is perfect for your engagement.
Speaker:It's when you start to grow that the opportunity for re-evaluating
Speaker:your connection to it becomes important.
Speaker:Really good point.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Wonderful. Okay.
Speaker:So let's talk now.
Speaker:How has everything evolved?
Speaker:Take us through a little bit over the course of time
Speaker:you jumped in.
Speaker:Now you're working in cooks and we described at the top
Speaker:of the show,
Speaker:what cooks is today?
Speaker:How did all of that start to grow and change with
Speaker:your influence?
Speaker:Well, we got stronger and we added better systems at the
Speaker:main store.
Speaker:The main location is in St.
Speaker:Paul, but systems are expensive and team is expensive.
Speaker:And point of sale system is expensive and all that stuff.
Speaker:So at some point we had to make the decision,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:am I ready to go back to being the shopkeeper or
Speaker:have I reassessed my relationship with cooks?
Speaker:Because the scale is such that I can take some of
Speaker:the roles that other people have and we'll stay this size
Speaker:and, you know,
Speaker:think about putting the kids through college and all that stuff.
Speaker:And at just about every turn,
Speaker:we decided that the brand opportunity was significant enough in our
Speaker:relationship with the community was robust enough that we needed an,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:another location that instead of scaling back,
Speaker:we wanted to scale up.
Speaker:And then once we start in the scale up progression,
Speaker:then it's always easier to say,
Speaker:let's add another one.
Speaker:Or where's the opportunity here.
Speaker:Where's the growth.
Speaker:I always tell our team that retail is like being a
Speaker:shark. If you're not growing,
Speaker:you're dying.
Speaker:The minute you stop being aware of your competition or stop
Speaker:being aware of trying to end food or stop being inspired
Speaker:to go find the new design of the potato peeler and
Speaker:stop engaging your customers because everybody sort of knows,
Speaker:and they're complacent than they're comfortable.
Speaker:Then that's when everything starts to decline.
Speaker:So you have to be prepared for that.
Speaker:So in our case,
Speaker:we work with my old friend,
Speaker:we set systems in place.
Speaker:We're constantly assessing and reassessing and growing and changing and evolving,
Speaker:and it works for us.
Speaker:And maybe that's more motivated by me than life,
Speaker:but so we just are constantly trying to better ourselves Solid
Speaker:piece of advice.
Speaker:Carl, thank you very much.
Speaker:Hopefully all of you were really listening intently,
Speaker:if not rewind that last piece,
Speaker:once again,
Speaker:a couple of questions for you,
Speaker:Carl, and I don't know the answers to these.
Speaker:So I'll be very curious.
Speaker:Would you say that as you talk about systems and all
Speaker:of that,
Speaker:when you start adding a second store,
Speaker:is the second store the hardest versus then three,
Speaker:four, five,
Speaker:like just getting everything in place to have a second location.
Speaker:And then is it more repetitive because it's a similar concept.
Speaker:Does that make sense?
Speaker:It does.
Speaker:Totally. I would say that the growth from one to two
Speaker:is exponential.
Speaker:It's goes from 100 to 300 because you run into questions
Speaker:of how do you supply what's the inventory look like if
Speaker:you're ordering in our case.
Speaker:At first,
Speaker:when we set up the second location,
Speaker:we had to set a second delivery spot,
Speaker:which from all of our vendors meant we had to meet
Speaker:minimums for a second delivery location.
Speaker:So each location had its own delivery minimums.
Speaker:And after probably three or four years of that,
Speaker:we did some assessments decided that we were better served by
Speaker:paying the expense of a warehousing space.
Speaker:So we could buy and send everything off of one,
Speaker:but then off of one purchase order,
Speaker:so to speak.
Speaker:But then to achieve that we needed to upgrade our POS,
Speaker:our inventory management and our ordering system,
Speaker:because our original system was set up.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:you could do a series of ones,
Speaker:but when you did the first two,
Speaker:it wasn't robust enough to consider everything with that centralized delivery
Speaker:piece. So it took us a,
Speaker:I would say probably five or six years to figure out
Speaker:the second location,
Speaker:just how to run it and run it efficiently.
Speaker:And then four years ago,
Speaker:we bought a competitor in town.
Speaker:They had gone out of business and we bought all their
Speaker:assets and signed a new lease in the same space.
Speaker:And in that case,
Speaker:we spent three months getting everything ready.
Speaker:We took over the space and we closed it down,
Speaker:did an inventory.
Speaker:And we were up and running in four days.
Speaker:And after 10 days,
Speaker:it was like,
Speaker:we'd been running it for 10 years.
Speaker:So, but we Integrate into all your systems.
Speaker:You already had it.
Speaker:By that point,
Speaker:we had a system that is robust enough to accommodate three.
Speaker:And now we're going to open a fourth,
Speaker:but that's not a modest undertaking.
Speaker:Again, if I go back to an earlier comment,
Speaker:it's at that point,
Speaker:that you're as the owner,
Speaker:your relationship with your business changes.
Speaker:If you want it to be a shopkeeper,
Speaker:you are no longer a shopkeeper.
Speaker:You need to be the it guy.
Speaker:You need to be the team motivator.
Speaker:You need to build systems where,
Speaker:of communication and consistency across multiple locations.
Speaker:So your whole relationship with your business changes.
Speaker:So how well prepared are you for that change is always
Speaker:the big question.
Speaker:Okay. Another question for you and give biz listeners.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:we talk about this a lot too,
Speaker:is when you're opening a business,
Speaker:how are you going to be different from other people out
Speaker:there who are selling somewhat of a similar product?
Speaker:What is your unique selling proposition?
Speaker:So let me ask you that,
Speaker:how are you different than from anybody else,
Speaker:either in your area or also all over,
Speaker:because you do mail order as well.
Speaker:How are you different?
Speaker:Our differences that we don't talk,
Speaker:the idea of experiential.
Speaker:We actually live it and plan for it and define it
Speaker:and train to it.
Speaker:And so that when we have consistency in all the three
Speaker:locations, we are small.
Speaker:Our footprint is very small.
Speaker:We have 2,800
Speaker:or 3,200
Speaker:square feet of retail versus our competitors.
Speaker:The big guys,
Speaker:the national can be up to 10,000
Speaker:square feet of retail.
Speaker:They tend to be the,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:they're buying is we're going to purchase everything.
Speaker:And we're going to let you decide which set of cookware
Speaker:you want,
Speaker:or which knife you want by looking at our display.
Speaker:And in our case,
Speaker:we do all the legwork.
Speaker:We test everything.
Speaker:Nothing that we sell in the store has ever,
Speaker:I should say,
Speaker:everything we sell in this store has been run through the
Speaker:school or tasted by multiple people on our team so that
Speaker:we know where the olive oil comes from.
Speaker:And in many cases,
Speaker:we've met the vendor that sells that or not the vendor,
Speaker:even the producer,
Speaker:the farm.
Speaker:So we do that curating,
Speaker:if you say ours is a curator,
Speaker:not like a museum,
Speaker:but then everything we sell,
Speaker:we know works.
Speaker:Our team has all tried it and tested it.
Speaker:It's easy to say,
Speaker:I'm just going to buy product out of a catalog and
Speaker:offer it up.
Speaker:And if people like it great,
Speaker:and if they don't want to get rid of it,
Speaker:but in our case,
Speaker:because we have we're limited on space,
Speaker:then we make sure that what we're offering is true to
Speaker:our values and true to our vision for our business and
Speaker:that we can stand behind it because we all use it.
Speaker:That is the key driver for us.
Speaker:And so,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:for example,
Speaker:we talk about the web bar challenges.
Speaker:We're not just going to offer 6,000
Speaker:products up on the web.
Speaker:We have to figure out exactly what our position on the
Speaker:web is and how we're going to offer it.
Speaker:And how can we bring some level of the Cook's experience
Speaker:to the web experience?
Speaker:Because, you know,
Speaker:Amazon has the Amazon experience and which in my opinion is
Speaker:not much of an experience it's super transactional.
Speaker:You just,
Speaker:everybody there buys on price.
Speaker:Well, we don't have the marketing reach.
Speaker:We don't have the horsepower.
Speaker:We don't have the name recognition to attract people.
Speaker:So we got to go the other direction.
Speaker:And that is we have to find a way to bring
Speaker:the Cook's experience alive in a virtual environment.
Speaker:And we're probably 5% of the way towards that end result
Speaker:right now,
Speaker:But on your way.
Speaker:And I think it's really important,
Speaker:whether it's an experience in store or online,
Speaker:that's what separates you so much from other people.
Speaker:Because, and I talk about this a lot too.
Speaker:You can have a similar product,
Speaker:but who you are as a personality.
Speaker:And when I say who I am,
Speaker:meaning your business,
Speaker:as well as you,
Speaker:how do you treat people when they come in the store?
Speaker:How's your web interaction?
Speaker:Do your pages load well,
Speaker:is it easy to navigate through your site?
Speaker:What types of products do you have?
Speaker:What kind of services and all of that is not as
Speaker:easy to copy.
Speaker:If someone's trying to outdo you,
Speaker:they can buy the same products that you can,
Speaker:but they can't provide a similar experience because that goes back
Speaker:to you and your personality and what you're able to do
Speaker:in your company for your customers,
Speaker:who I think is About,
Speaker:again, doing the legwork,
Speaker:doing the groundwork,
Speaker:saying who are we comes up all the time and maybe
Speaker:not so much in the last couple of years as it
Speaker:did in the beginning.
Speaker:And it's easy to get lured into the siren song of
Speaker:what we think people want today.
Speaker:We think people want red pots with black handles.
Speaker:So we go out and we buy everything that we're anticipating
Speaker:that the customer wants,
Speaker:which is fine if you guess,
Speaker:right? But the minute it transitions to blue pots with yellow
Speaker:handles and your eyeballs deep in red pots with black handles.
Speaker:Now you're scrambling to try and shift and change directions.
Speaker:So for us years and years,
Speaker:and years ago is we decided that it was extremely important
Speaker:for us to define who we are.
Speaker:If we're going to offer the red pot with the black
Speaker:handle, here's why we're going to offer it.
Speaker:And here's why we believe it's a more compelling story to
Speaker:you. And here's how it fits in the context of our
Speaker:vision for our business and sort of the brand of our
Speaker:business. And if then the secondary challenge becomes how effectively can
Speaker:you communicate that?
Speaker:And for us,
Speaker:it became more heartfelt if you will,
Speaker:or more soulful,
Speaker:more legitimate that we wanted our environments to be a reflection
Speaker:of the brand.
Speaker:And the brand is not me.
Speaker:Our brand is not Carl Benson,
Speaker:or it's not my wife,
Speaker:Marie Dwyer,
Speaker:or it's not Susie,
Speaker:our events,
Speaker:marketing person.
Speaker:It's not Lindsay our business manager.
Speaker:We sit down and say,
Speaker:this is the brand.
Speaker:We are all stewards where the current stewards of the Cook's
Speaker:brand. So the brand has its own life.
Speaker:And the vision that happens is inclusive and it's expansive.
Speaker:And it's about everyone's experience with everyone on our team and
Speaker:everyone who comes into the store.
Speaker:So capturing that and building a system around,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:in essence,
Speaker:an entity that we like to say has its own life
Speaker:and its own soul.
Speaker:And if we're just captaining it at this moment,
Speaker:then what is it?
Speaker:And how are we delivering it and how are we defining
Speaker:it and how are we connecting to it?
Speaker:And how are we making that experience come alive?
Speaker:And that's it.
Speaker:And even more difficult tasks,
Speaker:but if you can find a way to bring it together,
Speaker:it's even that much more rewarding.
Speaker:Well, it's a winning task based on what's going on with
Speaker:you guys,
Speaker:for sure.
Speaker:Some days I wonder,
Speaker:alright, let's go.
Speaker:That's a great segue,
Speaker:Carl, let's go to one of those days when the clouds
Speaker:are hanging over some projects,
Speaker:something's not going well,
Speaker:you're having a struggle.
Speaker:Give us a point in time when there was a really
Speaker:big challenge that you had to deal with and how you
Speaker:overcame that issue.
Speaker:We had a store and I guess it was the original
Speaker:enclosed mall in the United States,
Speaker:any Dinah,
Speaker:Minnesota, and our concept is more main street.
Speaker:So everything is really in your neighborhood at the corner of
Speaker:Oak and main or whatever you want.
Speaker:And main in first,
Speaker:that kind of thing.
Speaker:And we were growing and there was an opportunity to go
Speaker:into the complete redevelopment of this sort of landmark,
Speaker:enclosed shopping mall.
Speaker:We had a lot of consternation and conversation and decided when
Speaker:we were going to take a run at it.
Speaker:And it was,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:within three months of our signing a lease,
Speaker:they signed an Apple store.
Speaker:They had a mini store,
Speaker:they had all the hot buzz,
Speaker:buzz, retail.
Speaker:We're going to be our neighbors.
Speaker:And we signed the lease.
Speaker:And then 45 days later,
Speaker:the mall sold and the new owners stopped everything.
Speaker:So the entire mall went back into a tailspin.
Speaker:And within a year we were saying,
Speaker:we can't stay in business here another six months because we'll
Speaker:be out of business at that point.
Speaker:So we had to figure out a creative way to get
Speaker:out of that.
Speaker:Very, very trying situation.
Speaker:There were plenty of times in that four months where I
Speaker:didn't sleep and I thought,
Speaker:Oh my God,
Speaker:we've worked so hard for everything.
Speaker:And one bad decision or one change.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:one great decision set my life on a new course,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:eight years prior.
Speaker:And one decision that we have no control over that they
Speaker:sold them all is going to be the acts that sort
Speaker:of brings it all to a close.
Speaker:And that was really,
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:we, that was a very,
Speaker:very difficult time.
Speaker:So, and in that case,
Speaker:we just put our head down and negotiated the best we
Speaker:could and slashed costs and reorganized and decided that we were
Speaker:going to do whatever we needed to do to keep it
Speaker:alive. And we did,
Speaker:and it took about four years to recover from that experience.
Speaker:And we learned from it.
Speaker:So I get lots of calls from malls and I don't
Speaker:return any of it.
Speaker:Is there any overriding learning that you would give our listeners
Speaker:about that whole experience?
Speaker:It's probably the back to the same sort of life philosophy
Speaker:that we have and have to be open and creative and
Speaker:create possibilities and opportunities.
Speaker:If you have possibilities,
Speaker:you can still move.
Speaker:And it's when you lose all possibilities and you get channeled
Speaker:into one path and one ends that creativity starts to flounder.
Speaker:And if you can't be creative,
Speaker:then you can't find your way out of it.
Speaker:And you sort of lose hope.
Speaker:I myself would lose hope in that environment.
Speaker:So successful because we were just,
Speaker:I refuse to let it all sort of go away.
Speaker:Sheer will and creativity,
Speaker:having a really great team and a really good support.
Speaker:And that culture that's still is still strong today.
Speaker:Sometimes you got to just bust your backside to make a
Speaker:really difficult time,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:to get past a really difficult time.
Speaker:And it's nothing more than hard work and perseverance and Driving
Speaker:through the problem.
Speaker:One way That I'm not so Pollyanna to say that there
Speaker:aren't times where are no more auctions and there are no
Speaker:more choices.
Speaker:And the really hard decision has to be made.
Speaker:We've been able to sort of get around those crossroads in
Speaker:our business,
Speaker:but they're there and they're lurking in there.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:I don't want to step in them.
Speaker:Yeah. You know,
Speaker:I think this is a good example though,
Speaker:that your business is always evolving and changing.
Speaker:And sometimes it's the environment around you,
Speaker:not necessarily your business,
Speaker:but you have to react.
Speaker:So just because you have a winning business model and you're
Speaker:making money today does not mean that it's going to be
Speaker:the same thing next year.
Speaker:Things happen.
Speaker:What's going to happen online with Instagram and Facebook.
Speaker:And are they going to start stealing sales versus in store
Speaker:experiences? And you have to always continually be analyzing,
Speaker:looking and recreating your business to continue to get better and
Speaker:stay up with the times.
Speaker:The other thing I think really important for everyone to remember
Speaker:is what Carl went through was not failure.
Speaker:Okay. Always think,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:Oh, if I,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:everything has to be absolutely perfect.
Speaker:When you come to a challenging time,
Speaker:they took a risk of going to a different type,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:more of a strip mall type thing or indoor mall,
Speaker:I guess I'd say versus the main street,
Speaker:single location.
Speaker:Maybe it would have worked out great in this case.
Speaker:It didn't,
Speaker:but it's not as necessarily a failure.
Speaker:It's a learning and you work through it.
Speaker:You just,
Speaker:that's something that all of us as business owners have to
Speaker:realize. There are some things that just aren't going to work.
Speaker:It doesn't mean that we're a failure.
Speaker:It's part of your journey.
Speaker:It's a bump along the road for you guys.
Speaker:It sounded like it took her a few years because it
Speaker:was a big event,
Speaker:but still you just drive through,
Speaker:recover and carry on and tell us where you are today.
Speaker:What's the most exciting thing with cooks today,
Speaker:before we move on,
Speaker:We are opening where maybe some of the only wacky people
Speaker:in the country that are actually opening another bricks and mortar.
Speaker:There's a neighborhood here in Minneapolis called the North loop.
Speaker:It's every town in America has its version,
Speaker:whether it's Brooklyn or the meat packing district in Chicago,
Speaker:or down along the Embarcadero in San Francisco,
Speaker:it's the old warehouse space that is coming alive,
Speaker:being re gentrified,
Speaker:turning into multiunit housing and high density traffic.
Speaker:So we have found a really funny,
Speaker:interesting little spot and the very hipster neighborhood.
Speaker:And we're going to take a run to see if we
Speaker:can tweak our product assortment and sort of tweak our vision
Speaker:for that space to become a little more food centric and
Speaker:a little less pots and pan centric.
Speaker:And see if we can make a run at a fourth
Speaker:location. That sounds very exciting,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:and I don't give up on brick and mortar.
Speaker:I got to tell you,
Speaker:I think it was Gary Vaynerchuk,
Speaker:not within the last 60 days or so was talking about
Speaker:the fact that still only between 15 and 19% of dollars
Speaker:are actually going through online sales.
Speaker:There is still a ton of opportunity in brick and mortar.
Speaker:So don't get discouraged.
Speaker:Yes. A lot of people come in,
Speaker:they comparison shop.
Speaker:Then they buy online.
Speaker:They're not your customer longterm.
Speaker:And they're certainly not the ones who are looking for the
Speaker:buyer experience as Carl's been talking about before.
Speaker:Well, and I think that some of that is all those
Speaker:statistics affect.
Speaker:I read not the same author,
Speaker:but another article saying that in our channel,
Speaker:it's still in the seven or 8%,
Speaker:total, it's one level to define it.
Speaker:And it's another level to sort of practicality live it.
Speaker:People are going to shop online and people are going to
Speaker:look for products in that sort of Cook's experience.
Speaker:Our vendors are recognizing it.
Speaker:We see increasingly the folks that we buy product from are
Speaker:holding a mat pricing line.
Speaker:They're cutting off Amazon.
Speaker:They're cutting off,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:some of the big violators of pricing structure.
Speaker:And it depends on your,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:the environment and the sort of business category that your listeners
Speaker:are pursuing.
Speaker:And so the ultimate answer is to work with your vendors
Speaker:and ask what they're doing to support what it is that
Speaker:you're trying to do.
Speaker:And I think ultimately if Amazon is holding the same pricing
Speaker:guidelines as coaxes,
Speaker:or as Williams-Sonoma is,
Speaker:then we can compete.
Speaker:It's when you know,
Speaker:people who are price shoppers are going to buy based on
Speaker:price and Amazon is going to be attractive to them,
Speaker:but you can't call Amazon and say,
Speaker:I'm making a castle lay.
Speaker:What would the best pot be for me to purchase?
Speaker:Because I have 10 people calling for dinner on Saturday night,
Speaker:you're not going to get an answer to that.
Speaker:You can stop into your independent place.
Speaker:And they'll say,
Speaker:well, show me the recipe and I'll help you find ingredients
Speaker:and we'll source it.
Speaker:And here's the best pot.
Speaker:And here's how you serve it.
Speaker:And here's some candles that go along with your idea,
Speaker:et cetera,
Speaker:et cetera,
Speaker:Amazon can't compete in that environment.
Speaker:So as long as the vendors are aligned behind what each
Speaker:of their clients are trying to achieve,
Speaker:then if there's parody,
Speaker:then independence can compete.
Speaker:They just have to compete in a different way.
Speaker:Relationships. It goes back to relationships.
Speaker:They're trusting you because as you were talking about before,
Speaker:you've already tested and you know,
Speaker:that you've hand selected products,
Speaker:you're just not going to stock everything.
Speaker:And then being able that one-on-one,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:being able to come in and ask,
Speaker:come in or call and ask for recommendations and comments.
Speaker:So, yeah,
Speaker:absolutely. All right,
Speaker:Carl, we're going to swing now into the reflection section.
Speaker:This is a look at you.
Speaker:You've shared a bunch of things already in terms of how
Speaker:you've been successful along the way,
Speaker:but I have a couple of specific questions for you.
Speaker:If you think back to being a young boy,
Speaker:what would you say you call upon to remain successful and
Speaker:motivated and just driven for your business?
Speaker:What's your,
Speaker:It's just persistence and perseverance.
Speaker:I don't give up easy and I've never given up easy.
Speaker:I just,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:I just keep my family,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:you have that question around the dinner table of,
Speaker:of if you were a dog,
Speaker:what kind of dog would you be?
Speaker:And in my case with our entire family and all the
Speaker:kids and,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:we have a bunch of kids and they always referred to
Speaker:me as a terrier.
Speaker:I'm just,
Speaker:I'm relentless and that's good and bad.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:there are times where I should let go and just move
Speaker:on, but I can't,
Speaker:I'm wired like a terrier.
Speaker:I'm just going to keep digging to try and find that
Speaker:Fox in the hole.
Speaker:And I'm not going to give up until I'm either chewed
Speaker:my legs off or I get it.
Speaker:And so there's,
Speaker:that's for me is my that's a good into bed.
Speaker:Yeah. And if you believe strongly enough in what you're doing,
Speaker:that's what makes you successful because you drive through,
Speaker:you find the solution.
Speaker:If one thing doesn't work,
Speaker:you go for something else until you've gotten the result that
Speaker:you need.
Speaker:Exactly. All right.
Speaker:When you think of your day-to-day work environment,
Speaker:is there some tool or something that you call upon every
Speaker:day that is like the,
Speaker:like you could not do without Yes.
Speaker:It's called the Mobius.
Speaker:It's a communication model that we we've built our entire business
Speaker:around it.
Speaker:So the question that,
Speaker:whether it's in a moment of challenge or a moment of
Speaker:opportunity, a vision opportunity,
Speaker:or we're trying to figure out how to solve a particular
Speaker:problem. The Mobius model is written by a guy named bill
Speaker:Stockton, and he's a cultural anthropologist.
Speaker:And he started studying how primitive societies communicate.
Speaker:And then he took his learnings and applied it to modern
Speaker:day people.
Speaker:And then ultimately how to build a communication model for an
Speaker:organization. So when you have a challenge,
Speaker:it's not a who's at fault who's to blame.
Speaker:How are we going to find out someone that we can
Speaker:point our fingers at and say that this person,
Speaker:or this situation really is responsible for where we find ourselves
Speaker:and send it in a more holistic way.
Speaker:It's to say,
Speaker:where are we?
Speaker:What's the challenge what's present in our business currently that is
Speaker:contributing to this challenge,
Speaker:being a challenge.
Speaker:And what's missing that if it were present would enable us
Speaker:to overcome or work our way around this challenge.
Speaker:So the missings that you define then become the steps and
Speaker:the action items that the organization uses to get around the
Speaker:challenge that works equally well with what's our vision.
Speaker:We're going to open a new store in North loop.
Speaker:What do we want it to be?
Speaker:What's present to contributes to that new vision.
Speaker:What's missing that if it were present,
Speaker:would enable that vision to be that much stronger.
Speaker:We follow this Mobius path.
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:we're carrier,
Speaker:like if I borrowed from before and how we follow it,
Speaker:we don't waiver.
Speaker:We use that tool and we use that model and our
Speaker:whole business is built around it.
Speaker:And it is incredibly powerful if you can work it and
Speaker:stick with it and be consistent in how you execute on
Speaker:it. All right.
Speaker:So a hundred percent hands down on the Mobius method,
Speaker:The path that we went down with understanding the Mobius was
Speaker:like so many other things.
Speaker:It's probably an eight year.
Speaker:Well, we we've actually,
Speaker:we use it for our annual planning thing and I took
Speaker:a picture of the other day and I can send it
Speaker:to you,
Speaker:but this is our 12th year that we followed the same
Speaker:annual planning program.
Speaker:And I still have all the charts that we've done.
Speaker:And I put them all up on a wall and took
Speaker:a photo and sent it to a friend of mine.
Speaker:It's almost like dedicating your life to a yoga practice.
Speaker:It's not superficial.
Speaker:It's either jump in and go with it and stick with
Speaker:it. Or there are certainly pieces in there that you can
Speaker:pull out and use and,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:sort of move forward.
Speaker:But I think if you really understand it and study it
Speaker:and do the heavy lifting,
Speaker:it's there for the long haul,
Speaker:it's that sustainable model that we're looking for.
Speaker:You have piqued my curiosity for sure.
Speaker:Okay, great.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:So in the end here,
Speaker:Carl, I would like to invite you to dare to dream.
Speaker:I would like to present you with a virtual gift.
Speaker:It's a magical box containing unlimited possibilities for your future.
Speaker:This is your dream or your goal of almost unreachable Heights
Speaker:that you would wish to obtain.
Speaker:Please accept this gift and open it in our presence.
Speaker:What is inside your box?
Speaker:It's a great gift.
Speaker:And I appreciate that.
Speaker:It's actually kind of easy for me to answer,
Speaker:and that is that I used to think for a long
Speaker:time that I wanted to be widely considered to be sort
Speaker:of the best in our category.
Speaker:And two years ago,
Speaker:we won the global innovators award for the housewares association.
Speaker:So we were the winner from the United States.
Speaker:It's, you know,
Speaker:it's a,
Speaker:a juried submission with,
Speaker:and all kinds of descriptors of our business.
Speaker:And it's kind of funny and Williams-Sonoma one,
Speaker:it, you know,
Speaker:say seven or eight years ago.
Speaker:So we were selected three years ago at the end of
Speaker:2013. So we won the U S innovators award.
Speaker:And then we went to the sort of global championship and
Speaker:there were 25 retail operations from around the world,
Speaker:Germany and England.
Speaker:And we were picked as the,
Speaker:they told us we were the first unanimous decision in the
Speaker:12 years.
Speaker:They've had the award between the judging panel voted us first.
Speaker:Their first round was,
Speaker:Hey, who do you think is the best one this year?
Speaker:And everyone said,
Speaker:cooks, cooks coast cooks says that was the first time ever
Speaker:that there was a consensus first balloting winner.
Speaker:And it was pretty cool.
Speaker:There were four winners the year that we won of the
Speaker:28 submissions or 23.
Speaker:So after that,
Speaker:I thought,
Speaker:I guess I have to pick a different vision.
Speaker:So I no longer felt like,
Speaker:well, I want to be widely considered to be the best
Speaker:in our category.
Speaker:Now, I think I'd like to be considered as the best
Speaker:in a category of one that if we are living our
Speaker:vision and we're creating something that is truly us and unique
Speaker:to us,
Speaker:then we will be unique.
Speaker:And at that point we can say where the best in
Speaker:the category of one.
Speaker:And I think that would be for me,
Speaker:the ultimate sort of gift or vision for what cooks could
Speaker:become, Which means you will have created your very own category.
Speaker:Exactly. Period.
Speaker:The only one in it.
Speaker:Well, Carl such interesting information.
Speaker:I am so glad I knew that this interview was going
Speaker:to prove exactly that if someone wanted to get in touch
Speaker:with you and cooks,
Speaker:what's the single place that someone should go.
Speaker:If they want to see and learn about cooks of Crocus
Speaker:Hill, It would be our website that's www.cooksofcrocushill.com.
Speaker:Wonderful. All right.
Speaker:Give biz listeners,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:on the show notes page,
Speaker:I will also have that website repeated one more time,
Speaker:also social media site and any other links that make sense
Speaker:for our interview today,
Speaker:as well as some of the other information in terms of
Speaker:some of the detail that we've talked about during the show
Speaker:here, Carl,
Speaker:thank you so much.
Speaker:I really appreciate your taking the time to be with us.
Speaker:You've shared some really,
Speaker:really interesting points and it's so cool.
Speaker:Not you just at the very end,
Speaker:just land this global innovators award on us.
Speaker:So that was super awesome.
Speaker:I wish we could take it on longer and talk a
Speaker:little bit more about that.
Speaker:But congratulations on that.
Speaker:There is not a doubt in my mind that you,
Speaker:at some point are going to be the winner of a
Speaker:category of one,
Speaker:and may your candle always burn bright.
Speaker:You learn how to work smarter while developing and growing your
Speaker:business. Download our guide called 25 free tools to enhance your
Speaker:business and life.
Speaker:It's our gift to you and available gift biz,
Speaker:unwrap.com/tools. Thanks for listening and be sure to join us for
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