Shownotes
Business Building Insights
- Talk about your art to spread the word. You can’t be shy about what you do. It’s okay that some people will take a pass because others will love it!
- It’s important to find your support person. This should be someone you trust and will be honest yet kind with feedback – someone who truly wants the best for you.
- Building a business is not just a passion project because it takes time, energy and commitment.
- When you’re starting out and your piece is ready to be shown, stop hesitating and just do it.
- Seek out advice from others who have been in the industry for a while. By listening to them, you’ll get further faster than if you try to learn and do everything by yourself without direction.
- Know what market works for you. Each one is different and over time, you’ll learn where your product is the best fit for the audience.
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Thanks! Sue
Transcripts
Gift biz unwrapped episode 229 that was the day when I
Speaker:was like,
Speaker:wait, I will make something and people will give me money
Speaker:for it.
Speaker:At Tinton,
Speaker:gifters, bakers,
Speaker:crafters and makers pursuing your dream can be fun whether you
Speaker:have an established business or looking to start one now you
Speaker:are in the right place.
Speaker:This is gift to biz unwrapped,
Speaker:helping you turn your skill into a flourishing business.
Speaker:Join us for an episode packed full of invaluable guidance,
Speaker:resources and the support you need to grow your gift biz.
Speaker:Here is your host gift biz gal Sue moon Heights.
Speaker:Hi there,
Speaker:it's Sue And I'm thrilled to have you joining me here
Speaker:today. I can't believe that the summer is almost over.
Speaker:The kids are back or on their way back to school
Speaker:and I can definitely feel the switch.
Speaker:The pace is picking up.
Speaker:I think people are looking toward the holiday season and setting
Speaker:their plans in place for that.
Speaker:If you're just starting your business,
Speaker:the holidays,
Speaker:a great time to run some tests on your products too.
Speaker:If you're thinking of doing some fall or holiday craft shows,
Speaker:church bazaars,
Speaker:things like that.
Speaker:You can observe what sells best.
Speaker:Maybe it's certain sizes and colors.
Speaker:You can test out your pricing and you can talk with
Speaker:the people who come by and look at your displays too.
Speaker:There's a wealth of knowledge that you can learn that will
Speaker:serve you in the future,
Speaker:so take advantage of this opportunity.
Speaker:If you're new to business and you're checking to see what
Speaker:the market looks like for your product.
Speaker:Also an FYI,
Speaker:I'm going to be at the Philadelphia candy show the weekend
Speaker:of September 7th it's appropriately enough in Hershey,
Speaker:Pennsylvania and we'll be there exhibiting for the ribbon print company
Speaker:and I'll also be doing a class on what's working now
Speaker:in social media.
Speaker:Gosh, this is the presentation that I have to change almost
Speaker:every time I present it because things keep changing there pretty
Speaker:much by the month,
Speaker:so definitely check this out if you're in the area,
Speaker:I'd love to meet you in person,
Speaker:take pictures,
Speaker:all those fun things.
Speaker:The show today is a really fun one,
Speaker:especially if you're just starting out because you'll hear from the
Speaker:start how a product found its place was validated and went
Speaker:on to become an entire business unto itself.
Speaker:I can't help but smile when I think of this and
Speaker:without keeping you questioning what the heck I'm talking about.
Speaker:Let's just dive right into the show.
Speaker:Thrilled To introduce you to someone that I just met a
Speaker:few weeks ago.
Speaker:Kenneth could do lists and his wife have created a company
Speaker:called kudu LA established in thousand and seven kudu law is
Speaker:a husband and wife duo originally based in Brooklyn and harnessing
Speaker:the power of awesome Kenny and Jennifer bring you critters.
Speaker:They're original monster like characters that are inspired by folks seen
Speaker:traveling through the New York city,
Speaker:subways, Kenny sketches,
Speaker:paint and names,
Speaker:all the characters and then Jennifer creates their individual bios.
Speaker:The critters are often seen,
Speaker:captured in their Mason jars or juxtaposed into the couples original
Speaker:photography. All pieces are lovingly handmade by Kenny and Jennifer in
Speaker:Chattanooga and today we have them right on the show.
Speaker:Welcome to the gift biz on wrapped podcast.
Speaker:Hey, thank you.
Speaker:Yeah, thanks for having us.
Speaker:I'm thrilled that you're both here.
Speaker:We're going to have a really good talk.
Speaker:I just know,
Speaker:but before we get started,
Speaker:I always like to introduce you in a creative way and
Speaker:that is by having you share.
Speaker:If you had an ideal candle that looked just like you,
Speaker:what would it be?
Speaker:A color and quote on your motivational candle.
Speaker:Well mine,
Speaker:I love the color of midnight blue and I love the
Speaker:quote, there's nowhere to go but everywhere.
Speaker:So just keep on rolling under the stars and that's from
Speaker:on the road.
Speaker:And as Jack Kerouac always liked that one,
Speaker:Love it.
Speaker:There's nowhere to go but everywhere,
Speaker:And mine is a little bit different.
Speaker:So I would be the color of pumpkin spice and I
Speaker:particularly liked the quote from Jan Berry's Peter pan.
Speaker:All the wildest may have faith and trust and pixie dust.
Speaker:I love it.
Speaker:You guys are like so perfect together.
Speaker:We heard that.
Speaker:Might I also just note I'm from Chicago,
Speaker:so blue and orange.
Speaker:Go bears.
Speaker:I just had to put that in there.
Speaker:I like the cubbies.
Speaker:I grew up watching WGN,
Speaker:my dad is from Chicago,
Speaker:so yeah,
Speaker:we watched the Chicago games.
Speaker:There you go.
Speaker:And I'm a Cubs girl too,
Speaker:so. All right,
Speaker:let me just share,
Speaker:I've got to tell you guys,
Speaker:get busy listeners.
Speaker:So we have a fine art show and craft shows.
Speaker:We actually have a couple of shows each summer,
Speaker:right in my hometown of Highland park,
Speaker:Illinois and it attracts artists from literally all over the world.
Speaker:And I ran into the kudu law booth last year,
Speaker:but you guys were so packed,
Speaker:I didn't get a chance to stop and talk with you.
Speaker:Plus it was super hot that day.
Speaker:But luckily two weeks ago I got there really early on
Speaker:a Sunday right when it was starting.
Speaker:And Kenny,
Speaker:you were around and actually had a little bit of time
Speaker:to chat with me.
Speaker:And the reason I'm bringing all this up is my intro
Speaker:doesn't do justice to what you guys present and your monster,
Speaker:like characters.
Speaker:They are so super cute,
Speaker:so colorful,
Speaker:so original.
Speaker:And just to explain for you guys,
Speaker:cause I know a lot of you can't see them right
Speaker:now and don't have in your mind's eye what they look
Speaker:like. Think of these cute,
Speaker:very bold,
Speaker:very original characters like cartoonish type characters that you own kind
Speaker:of in a jar.
Speaker:They remind me of like old Polly pockets or the Ninja
Speaker:turtle, like something like that.
Speaker:But so people gravitate to the certain characters,
Speaker:they start to love and own certain characters and they wanted
Speaker:then collect art where the characters are showing up.
Speaker:So it's like real photography but then the character is inside
Speaker:a photo somewhere.
Speaker:So it's kind of like you're finding them out in the
Speaker:world somewhere.
Speaker:I guess I would say,
Speaker:I don't know if I'm doing justice to this at all,
Speaker:but I wanted to explain a little bit more before we
Speaker:got into this story.
Speaker:I think the best thing for you guys to do is
Speaker:jump over to either the show notes or their websites so
Speaker:you can see what these look like.
Speaker:Of course,
Speaker:don't stop now,
Speaker:continue listening to the podcast,
Speaker:but afterwards you just have to see how beautiful,
Speaker:adorable, creative.
Speaker:I feel like I want to be a little girl against
Speaker:that. I could have like five of them,
Speaker:Kara, Doris,
Speaker:maybe I'm allowed to as an adult.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:We'll see Your laptop.
Speaker:I actually,
Speaker:is it interesting when we do encounter adults and there's this
Speaker:sort of moment when they're like,
Speaker:Oh, I wish I was a kid or I wish I
Speaker:had kids and I'm like,
Speaker:you can still have fun.
Speaker:And it's interesting when I give them that permission,
Speaker:they're like,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:I can,
Speaker:yeah, I can have a little fun in my life.
Speaker:And then they welcome our little characters into their home.
Speaker:So you've given me permission right now to come claim a
Speaker:character when you guys are in town.
Speaker:100% yeah.
Speaker:You should pick a great people pick their personalities.
Speaker:It's like their spirit career.
Speaker:The first one they pick up is usually the one they
Speaker:identify with and the one that they ended up getting and
Speaker:taking on home.
Speaker:Oh, I'm so excited.
Speaker:Okay. So I'm really hoping,
Speaker:I know you guys are coming back to Highland park in
Speaker:a few weeks.
Speaker:I really hope hoping I'm in town cause I'm going to
Speaker:swing by and see you guys and pick my character.
Speaker:Let's back up,
Speaker:share with me a little bit about how this all started.
Speaker:What are your backgrounds?
Speaker:Like how did it originate?
Speaker:How did critters come to be?
Speaker:So I have a background in theater.
Speaker:That's what moved me to New York.
Speaker:So I was working at the Julliard school and coming back
Speaker:and forth to work.
Speaker:You have late night calls,
Speaker:right? You're there two,
Speaker:three o'clock in the morning coming back from work so that
Speaker:the trains are like they can run crazy.
Speaker:So to kill time I had my sketchbook with me cause
Speaker:we were just doodling and doing on projects during the day.
Speaker:And yeah,
Speaker:I know some of you guys have been on the subways
Speaker:early in the morning.
Speaker:There's a lot of creepy crawlers,
Speaker:people that are just didn't choose or maybe not choose to
Speaker:live there.
Speaker:So this was all new to me.
Speaker:That's a nice way of describing it.
Speaker:Yeah. So it was culture shock,
Speaker:I guess to say the least because it was my,
Speaker:I just moved to New York.
Speaker:I was only there for a couple months.
Speaker:So this is the way I guess.
Speaker:Yeah, I interpreted these people,
Speaker:I made them into these monster little characters that later become
Speaker:as critters.
Speaker:I call them critters.
Speaker:So like yeah,
Speaker:I kind of took parts of their personality and made them
Speaker:into like a bunch of eyeballs and teeth and they were
Speaker:out there exploring the subways in New York or at large.
Speaker:So this was just a past time you were just doing
Speaker:this for fun?
Speaker:Yeah. At first it was just for fun and I didn't
Speaker:know when I had like 40 of them,
Speaker:I was like,
Speaker:man, I have a whole cast of these things.
Speaker:What am I going to do with them?
Speaker:And so the natural thing with me is like were I
Speaker:found them was in the subway.
Speaker:So that was the first painting I was,
Speaker:it was of the characters in the subway.
Speaker:And from there I was like,
Speaker:Oh, these guys are just exploring New York.
Speaker:Just like me.
Speaker:It's like sort of the first time it's all new.
Speaker:I liked that aspect of it.
Speaker:So that's where the nexus,
Speaker:the beginning of all of it was with them exploring some
Speaker:ways paintings on photography.
Speaker:Okay. And so you were still doing this justice fund?
Speaker:Oh yeah.
Speaker:It was just as fun.
Speaker:I mean it was fun for the first four or five
Speaker:years, even when I first started selling,
Speaker:because I chose not to go to grad school and then
Speaker:I chose just to sell on the street.
Speaker:I had that luxury at the beginning.
Speaker:You were still allowed to sell on the streets on New
Speaker:York. So that was,
Speaker:I call it my schooling because I learned a whole heck
Speaker:of a lot because people are very truthful on the street.
Speaker:Really. So what year would that have been like?
Speaker:It would have been before 2007 cause you said too,
Speaker:you established the business,
Speaker:so be early two thousands I guess.
Speaker:Yes, around like 2005 actually started drawing them.
Speaker:So 2007 cause that was when I first opened my Etsy
Speaker:shop and at first kind of started going out as Kadula
Speaker:cause before then I was selling kind of other things on
Speaker:the street too cause I didn't have full confidence in the
Speaker:characters yet because cause that's like no one's going to buy
Speaker:these weird characters.
Speaker:I mean I didn't know what they are yet.
Speaker:I can't sell them and I couldn't wrap my brain around
Speaker:what they were yet.
Speaker:Okay. This is really interesting.
Speaker:Okay. So I have two things to talk about now.
Speaker:First off,
Speaker:Jennifer, are you in the picture anywhere here yet?
Speaker:Yeah. So at this time when we first moved to New
Speaker:York, we were living together and Kenny was working as a
Speaker:scenic artist.
Speaker:I was working as an actor in and out of jobs.
Speaker:And so in seeing it calls for him were very sporadic.
Speaker:And then theater gigs for me were very sporadic as well.
Speaker:So there was always sort of downtime in between.
Speaker:And any free time he had,
Speaker:he was at home drawing and or painting.
Speaker:We had a very,
Speaker:very tiny apartment and he used to paint in our hallway
Speaker:on our laundry baskets and that was my studio.
Speaker:It was a whopping three feet wide.
Speaker:Love that.
Speaker:Oh my gosh.
Speaker:And so when he started building up his little array of
Speaker:critters, were you like rethinking the relationship,
Speaker:thinking he was crazy or what were you thinking at that
Speaker:point? No,
Speaker:it's really interesting because he would travel to the scene of
Speaker:calls. Like he said,
Speaker:the work calls are really,
Speaker:really early in the morning.
Speaker:So with the trains being I'm off hours and at the
Speaker:time we were in Queens,
Speaker:he would have to leave the house at like three 30
Speaker:in the mornings,
Speaker:sometimes three o'clock in the morning.
Speaker:And so he took his sketchbook by the time he came
Speaker:home, it was never something that I really saw.
Speaker:He was always painting and working on stuff and I basically
Speaker:was just sort of the supportive girlfriend of like,
Speaker:yeah, that looks great.
Speaker:Maybe less of this,
Speaker:maybe more of this.
Speaker:Just sort of a springboard of,
Speaker:And it wasn't until he had kind of had numerous of
Speaker:these characters drawn and we started pulling up sketchbooks and I
Speaker:was like,
Speaker:wait, what is this?
Speaker:I was like,
Speaker:this is,
Speaker:Oh these are adorable.
Speaker:I was like,
Speaker:this is really cute.
Speaker:I was like,
Speaker:what are you doing with these?
Speaker:And he's like,
Speaker:Oh, that's nothing.
Speaker:That's just,
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:I don't know,
Speaker:isn't nothing.
Speaker:And then I was like,
Speaker:I think it's really good.
Speaker:And I think having somebody else look at it that he
Speaker:trusted having just like that little push of like,
Speaker:yeah, explore that.
Speaker:Yeah, just a little like boost of confidence.
Speaker:I was like,
Speaker:Oh, maybe these are something that opens up a whole world
Speaker:of like,
Speaker:okay, well what can I do with some?
Speaker:Yeah, maybe I can do this math.
Speaker:And I remember the first day he went out,
Speaker:he went out and he sold on the street.
Speaker:He took like two small pieces with them and I took
Speaker:four Oh four that's right.
Speaker:It was on a car table.
Speaker:The most busted car table you can think of.
Speaker:And I didn't have a way to display them,
Speaker:so I had basically solo cups that I got from the
Speaker:house and they duct tape them to the top being the
Speaker:paintings on.
Speaker:But Sue,
Speaker:it was so awesome.
Speaker:I sold three that day and then from that day forward
Speaker:I never looked back.
Speaker:That was the day when I was like,
Speaker:wait, I will make something and people will give me money
Speaker:for it that I made.
Speaker:It blew my mind.
Speaker:I came home,
Speaker:I was so excited.
Speaker:We were over the moon.
Speaker:I was like,
Speaker:if you assault three pieces,
Speaker:Oh my God,
Speaker:I have goosebumps over here.
Speaker:It was so amazing.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean first off Jennifer,
Speaker:that you saw the characters and are like,
Speaker:wait a minute,
Speaker:we need to talk further.
Speaker:Like you identified that this could be something and Kenny,
Speaker:you had to be so excited when that happened and then
Speaker:to get validation on the street almost immediately.
Speaker:Yeah. That was the great thing about the street.
Speaker:Like, I never went to grad school,
Speaker:so I don't know how that development process works.
Speaker:But say I take something to the street,
Speaker:I make it that week.
Speaker:I take it out there.
Speaker:If no one bought it,
Speaker:I was like,
Speaker:okay, I gotta do better because obviously this is not great.
Speaker:So it taught me how to talk about my art and
Speaker:then try to sell it,
Speaker:which is a whole other animal.
Speaker:And yeah,
Speaker:what people really responded to.
Speaker:So that helped me navigate in a lot of things early.
Speaker:There's nothing like people confirming that you have a product that
Speaker:they want.
Speaker:Right. Versus pretending and thinking and guessing and then they don't.
Speaker:So you were confirming right from the very beginning.
Speaker:How did you price those first pieces?
Speaker:Oh my goodness.
Speaker:Well the originals,
Speaker:I remember they were like maybe like 50 bucks or 25
Speaker:bucks. No,
Speaker:I think they only like $40 I think were the three
Speaker:pieces. He came home and I think the whole thing was
Speaker:like $85 and I was like,
Speaker:well, you made any $5 today.
Speaker:That's amazing.
Speaker:I mean we were living in New York on a very,
Speaker:very tight budget.
Speaker:So to just have that kind of happen.
Speaker:And I know one fellow,
Speaker:he lived in New York and then that morning a lady
Speaker:she was visiting from Boston,
Speaker:she bought one and I guess she liked it so much
Speaker:it was on her mind.
Speaker:She came back later that afternoon and bought another one.
Speaker:So that was the three that I sold.
Speaker:But yeah they were around like 40 bucks and they were
Speaker:all original and like I have the one that's left so
Speaker:I made four and I kept one cause it was one
Speaker:of the first ones I made.
Speaker:So you still have that now?
Speaker:Yes, I will never sell.
Speaker:That is the first one I made.
Speaker:It is the first of the first painting I ever did.
Speaker:Oh wow.
Speaker:You do fall in love with them.
Speaker:You really do.
Speaker:I totally see it.
Speaker:And when I was at the booth just a couple of
Speaker:weeks ago,
Speaker:I was seeing people coming and they were looking for new
Speaker:photos with their particular critter on it.
Speaker:So I understand what you're talking about where that woman was
Speaker:like she loved the one,
Speaker:she came back for another and now I mean repeat business
Speaker:is almost in your model because people are going to want
Speaker:to follow you and see what's new specifically with their critter.
Speaker:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker:Well the other thing,
Speaker:we initially started exclusively doing pieces that were just on the
Speaker:New York city subway and then naturally as we started to
Speaker:travel and see different things,
Speaker:I mean because we were very young when we moved to
Speaker:the city,
Speaker:so as we started to explore more of the world,
Speaker:we only felt it was natural for the critters to explore
Speaker:more of the world.
Speaker:And so now they've kind of branched out all over and
Speaker:it's interesting to see people,
Speaker:they really want to see these characters in sort of their
Speaker:cities and cities that they know and love.
Speaker:Yeah, like Highland park.
Speaker:Yeah, totally.
Speaker:I might have to figure something out with you about my
Speaker:whoever my critters going to be.
Speaker:We'll see.
Speaker:Kenny, you were talking about your street sales and things that
Speaker:you learned right in the beginning.
Speaker:Do you have any tips or hints for somebody?
Speaker:Cause one of the things that I'm really focusing on with
Speaker:this audience right now is to validate your idea before you
Speaker:spend a lot of time and money starting a business,
Speaker:just like you saw.
Speaker:So naturally that people gravitated and more purchasing and when there's
Speaker:one or two sales,
Speaker:you know there's more,
Speaker:but you have to get those one or two first.
Speaker:Is there anything you would say to somebody who keeps stopping
Speaker:because they weren't so sure about taping to a styrofoam cup
Speaker:or something?
Speaker:Right. Like they're feeling like they have everything.
Speaker:Perfect. What would you say to someone who's,
Speaker:they just need to get going and try it.
Speaker:What have you learned?
Speaker:Honestly, it's just sticking with it and that it sounds really
Speaker:simple, but it's very hard.
Speaker:I mean you can beat yourself down to saying like all
Speaker:this is,
Speaker:this is awful in your own head.
Speaker:This is,
Speaker:I don't want to show anybody this.
Speaker:But then you get it out there.
Speaker:You just gotta keep grinding it.
Speaker:That's why we say all the time we're just grinding.
Speaker:It's like Sisyphus,
Speaker:you got keep pushing that rock up that Hill.
Speaker:So did you have times when you brought some things out
Speaker:cause you were saying that your critters weren't the only thing
Speaker:that you were showing at the time,
Speaker:right? Yeah.
Speaker:So Jim is my,
Speaker:like I had bounced all the ideas of Jen.
Speaker:I don't know how her brain doesn't explode because I'm just
Speaker:like, I throw her all ideas all the time.
Speaker:Yeah. And she helps guide the ship,
Speaker:you know what I mean?
Speaker:Sometimes I get off on a tangent of creating these things
Speaker:and I was like,
Speaker:ah, yeah and you need to stay focused on sometimes.
Speaker:Yeah. I think having somebody that you trust that also shares,
Speaker:yeah. Not necessarily shares your taste,
Speaker:but can appreciate what you're trying to do.
Speaker:I think having somebody like a sounding board sort of like
Speaker:the way that the two of us work together,
Speaker:he knows that if I say that something's not working or
Speaker:if there are elements of a piece that are really working,
Speaker:then I will give him constructive criticism and say this is
Speaker:good and this is not.
Speaker:I think what's really hard is that when you're a creative
Speaker:person and you make something and you put everything you have
Speaker:into it,
Speaker:it's very hard for you to look at your own piece
Speaker:that you've created objectively.
Speaker:And it's not having an outside eye come in and say,
Speaker:this is what's working,
Speaker:but this is not what's working.
Speaker:And if you trust them,
Speaker:you should be able to basically push past this little slump
Speaker:that you're in and make something better.
Speaker:The goal as artists is always to make something better,
Speaker:to always keep ourselves excited and invested in our work.
Speaker:But how do you get over if something like Jennifer,
Speaker:it sounds like you are very smooth in your feedback,
Speaker:right? But people who are on the street who aren't buying
Speaker:aren't necessarily,
Speaker:so you might want to edit that.
Speaker:I'm not sure you can change that if you want to
Speaker:have a super thick skin,
Speaker:if you're out there selling,
Speaker:I mean even now,
Speaker:I mean I've been,
Speaker:this is our 12th year doing this and like when people
Speaker:say things like,
Speaker:it doesn't bother me in the least,
Speaker:but now you're established.
Speaker:But that first year or two years.
Speaker:Yeah, it cuts,
Speaker:I mean it hurts.
Speaker:You know what I mean?
Speaker:Like it's very personal,
Speaker:but you just have to maybe go home and cry in
Speaker:a corner and just question your life and learn glass of
Speaker:wine and then the next day go out there and just
Speaker:do it again.
Speaker:I think never gets easier.
Speaker:Say like year one to year 12 it never gets easier.
Speaker:It just changes,
Speaker:you know what I mean?
Speaker:Like things,
Speaker:it's always hard.
Speaker:I think that because we both came from a theater background
Speaker:and particularly I came from a performance background,
Speaker:so at being an actor for the couple of years that
Speaker:I was,
Speaker:it's one of those things that you put yourself out there,
Speaker:you try 50 different auditions,
Speaker:you get hopefully 49 rejections.
Speaker:There's always that one.
Speaker:Yeah. There's one thing and you take that one moment and
Speaker:you're like,
Speaker:this is something that was received well and there are so
Speaker:many variables that even when you think you know what it
Speaker:was and you try to recapture that,
Speaker:there are other things that are outside of your control.
Speaker:So if somebody is like,
Speaker:they go out and they try it two or three times,
Speaker:that's not going to cut it.
Speaker:You can't try it two or three times because what if
Speaker:the person that's interested in your stuff,
Speaker:they weren't there where you were like,
Speaker:what if they can see it that day?
Speaker:Or what if you had an off day or what if
Speaker:it was really bad weather or what if something happened on
Speaker:the news?
Speaker:There's things outside of your control that you have to know.
Speaker:Whatever it is that you are creating your stand behind now
Speaker:that can change over time and it shouldn't be able to
Speaker:initiate change.
Speaker:It should grow as you grow with your product.
Speaker:You go out there,
Speaker:you're putting it out there,
Speaker:and if somebody has,
Speaker:we've heard everything,
Speaker:I won't repeat some of the things that you said,
Speaker:but you're just,
Speaker:you say if it's not for you,
Speaker:then don't buy it.
Speaker:Well, and that's the thing.
Speaker:It's okay for people not,
Speaker:I don't know how they couldn't,
Speaker:but it's okay for not To care for what you're doing
Speaker:because the people who do love it and if you play
Speaker:that neutral field,
Speaker:you're not going to attract such a loyal and solid audience
Speaker:ever and you wouldn't stand for anything.
Speaker:So I really do think it is okay.
Speaker:And you don't need millions and millions of people to love
Speaker:what you do to make a good living.
Speaker:Of course you want everybody to love what you do.
Speaker:I get that.
Speaker:But for a solid business,
Speaker:you don't need that.
Speaker:You just need people who really take it to heart,
Speaker:are passionate about what you're doing and are going to come
Speaker:back and are going to spread the word.
Speaker:Yeah. I mean our customers are like,
Speaker:I love our customers.
Speaker:They're just like us,
Speaker:a little quirky and weird and they like fun whimsical things,
Speaker:Right? So that's I think where we identify as like so
Speaker:much with them.
Speaker:We're like almost instant friends with a lot of them.
Speaker:You sit there and just talk.
Speaker:Even after they bought they just sit there and just talk
Speaker:with them cause I just find them interesting too.
Speaker:So again,
Speaker:it's pretty great.
Speaker:Yeah, we actually,
Speaker:we've become really good friends with several of our customers over
Speaker:the year.
Speaker:Like I said,
Speaker:they are receptive to it and I think because we are
Speaker:making something that we love and when they see it,
Speaker:it's sort of like an added bonus.
Speaker:It's like,
Speaker:Oh we both liked this thing.
Speaker:Wait, you made this thing.
Speaker:Oh I like you now.
Speaker:I like you too.
Speaker:Right. Okay.
Speaker:So but let me ask you the harder question.
Speaker:When you were out with the street sales and you saw
Speaker:some things not moving,
Speaker:Jennifer, you're saying,
Speaker:well maybe it was the third time.
Speaker:No one liked it,
Speaker:but the fourth time someone would come and like it.
Speaker:Where's the point where you cut off where you try and
Speaker:you try,
Speaker:you have the tough skin,
Speaker:you go back and cry and have a glass of wine.
Speaker:I'm all about that.
Speaker:But then at some point,
Speaker:honestly there might be some products that just don't have a
Speaker:market. Like where is that line?
Speaker:Of course.
Speaker:Oh yeah,
Speaker:100% that is absolutely I think after like a couple of
Speaker:weeks or something,
Speaker:maybe months even you put it out there,
Speaker:it always like gets to the side or it's always on
Speaker:the bottom right of your display and it's like you're not
Speaker:feeling that confident about it and no one talks about it
Speaker:and then I think it's time to paint over it or
Speaker:just rework it.
Speaker:You have to be able to,
Speaker:I mean at the end of the day it's not like
Speaker:we're just,
Speaker:it's not a passion project.
Speaker:You're running a business and so you need to look at
Speaker:it like you're running the business.
Speaker:You have to look at each individual piece of inventory essentially
Speaker:and go,
Speaker:why is this piece not moving?
Speaker:And if you really kind of put it in front of
Speaker:enough people and it's still not moving as well as a
Speaker:pricing issue.
Speaker:And if it's not a pressure issue,
Speaker:maybe it's just time to rework the piece or to scrap
Speaker:it. I'll tell you,
Speaker:and I have boxes of stuff that doesn't work.
Speaker:So I never showed people that,
Speaker:but it's still there.
Speaker:And also the other thing that Kenny and I kind of
Speaker:go back and forth because he is constant.
Speaker:He's like a machine and he's constantly creating stuff.
Speaker:And just because you've created it does not mean that it's
Speaker:ready to sell.
Speaker:And that's a tricky thing because especially when you're starting out,
Speaker:if you're starting out,
Speaker:I think that if you feel like your piece is ready
Speaker:to be shown or almost even ready to be shown,
Speaker:do it.
Speaker:Like just do it.
Speaker:What's the worst that can somebody say something mean to you
Speaker:or they don't buy it?
Speaker:That's the worst that can happen.
Speaker:What do you mean by not ready to sell?
Speaker:Not ready yet.
Speaker:What does that mean?
Speaker:Because sometimes Kenny will do paintings,
Speaker:work, anything that's just not ready.
Speaker:You look at something and you're like,
Speaker:something's missing aspect of it that's just not quite right.
Speaker:It's intuitive.
Speaker:Yeah. It's just something that once you start to look at
Speaker:anything, it's sort of like you're baking a cake and you
Speaker:decorate it and you're like,
Speaker:yep, something's still missing.
Speaker:And when you get that,
Speaker:that last thing on the earth,
Speaker:you're like,
Speaker:okay, this is good.
Speaker:This is ready to present.
Speaker:So I think what you're also saying then is don't rush
Speaker:it either.
Speaker:You're going to know when it's ready.
Speaker:Don't rush making something just so that you can go sell
Speaker:the product has to be right unto itself.
Speaker:Yeah. And you have to feel like the product is ready
Speaker:to get to where the characters are,
Speaker:where they are now.
Speaker:It's put five or six years.
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:it's not like,
Speaker:I mean I was still selling it and still developing it,
Speaker:but where it actually like landed where it was tight and
Speaker:awesome and it's like,
Speaker:yes, this is it.
Speaker:Like it's five or six years in.
Speaker:So it's math and it's a slow process.
Speaker:The other thing I keep hearing both of you talk about
Speaker:is that you were really focused and observing what your potential
Speaker:buyers were commenting on,
Speaker:talking about who did buy et cetera.
Speaker:Can you speak a little more to that?
Speaker:Oh yeah.
Speaker:When you mean learn,
Speaker:especially in the beginning a lot from the customer,
Speaker:like figuring out price points,
Speaker:which is like an insane thing to try to figure it
Speaker:out. Rest the heart.
Speaker:It's a hard thing at the beginning is frustrating.
Speaker:Where is the pricing thing but then like what characters they
Speaker:were into.
Speaker:Cause when I first started it was 24 characters and then
Speaker:I will them down to 16 and that that's what I
Speaker:sell today at 16 characters at a time.
Speaker:So I figured out how to wheel out some of the
Speaker:characters that weren't that strong.
Speaker:So yeah,
Speaker:just communicating with them and people aren't actually on the streets.
Speaker:You gave constructive criticism,
Speaker:they might not have bought,
Speaker:but they were like,
Speaker:Hey, I like your standard.
Speaker:Like how maybe you visually change this or like it was
Speaker:very helpful.
Speaker:Start going out into the community,
Speaker:you'll find other people that are kind of in the same
Speaker:kind of ballpark that you are.
Speaker:They're sort of like,
Speaker:Oh, I'm just starting out and you'll become friends with those
Speaker:people. And then you'll also find people who've been like,
Speaker:yeah, I've been doing this five,
Speaker:10 years.
Speaker:And any kind of advice that they can give you,
Speaker:listen to that.
Speaker:Yeah, that's really good advice too.
Speaker:You guys make such an good team.
Speaker:I can just hear it,
Speaker:but not everybody has that.
Speaker:Not everyone's spouse believes in necessarily what they're doing.
Speaker:And you do need a support or you were talking about
Speaker:that earlier,
Speaker:that you needed to hear from Jennifer that there was potential
Speaker:here. And Jennifer,
Speaker:you were able to talk to Kenny about,
Speaker:ah, not so sure about this one.
Speaker:You guys could support each other through a common goal of
Speaker:getting this out to market somehow.
Speaker:Yeah. And that was a very hard thing,
Speaker:like just working together.
Speaker:But you have to be able to work together.
Speaker:But we also have a relationship together.
Speaker:So that's been a work in progress for sure.
Speaker:It probably always will be.
Speaker:Yeah. I mean there's definitely,
Speaker:there are days we have our battles and it's like,
Speaker:is this a spouse battle or is this a work battle?
Speaker:Right, right.
Speaker:But I just wanted,
Speaker:I also,
Speaker:before I forget to say this,
Speaker:if GIF is listeners,
Speaker:you're in a position where you don't have somebody who's supportive
Speaker:of you at home.
Speaker:What you were just saying,
Speaker:Jennifer, in terms of who else is at a show you
Speaker:may be exhibiting at that is a place maybe you can
Speaker:find a supporter for you.
Speaker:You can each support each other and probably best totally separate
Speaker:and different products.
Speaker:So you're not competing for a similar purpose,
Speaker:but you could be supporters of each other in the business
Speaker:if you don't have a readymade support system like the Kenny
Speaker:Jennifer team,
Speaker:I guess I'll say.
Speaker:Oh yeah.
Speaker:I mean I learned so much about new shows are just,
Speaker:what's a good show to go to?
Speaker:Are I tell people we're a good shows just with my
Speaker:neighbors or like people down the way that isn't crazy.
Speaker:I mean become friendly with them.
Speaker:I mean we talk all the time like new rule text
Speaker:or Instagram.
Speaker:We keep in communication,
Speaker:watch each other's back about good shows,
Speaker:new shows.
Speaker:It's great that way.
Speaker:Super friendly with them cause you learn a lot.
Speaker:I mean that's how I learned about doing the road.
Speaker:Doing all these shows all across the U S is from
Speaker:another person who was across the way I show.
Speaker:So he opened my eyes to like all these other shows
Speaker:that were out there.
Speaker:I had no idea what was going on.
Speaker:Yeah, you can find a support system out there.
Speaker:I mean like you can find somebody else who is in
Speaker:your community that is a crafter and they definitely do not
Speaker:have to be doing the same thing or even in the
Speaker:same sort of wheelhouse issue.
Speaker:And actually I find that it's better.
Speaker:Most of our friends,
Speaker:we do have friends that are artists,
Speaker:photographers and painters,
Speaker:but we also have a lot of our friends are not
Speaker:in those mediums.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:their ceramics or jewelers are.
Speaker:And it's always interesting to get their kind of feedback because
Speaker:eventually whatever they struggle with,
Speaker:you will struggle with as well and you will help guide
Speaker:each other through.
Speaker:Right. Excellent.
Speaker:It really is true.
Speaker:No, I think that's excellent.
Speaker:So I was going to move on to something else,
Speaker:but I want to stay with the shows now for a
Speaker:minute. I think a lot of people think,
Speaker:well shows is where I'm going to start,
Speaker:but you guys sound like you have continued and that is
Speaker:one of the strongest parts of your marketing is just being
Speaker:face to face with customers all the time.
Speaker:I would say absolutely true.
Speaker:I would say that's probably 85% of our business is face
Speaker:to face and then the rest of it is just people
Speaker:that want to buy that buy that day.
Speaker:It show they come back on the website.
Speaker:Okay, so that's how they're compatible.
Speaker:I want to get into the Etsy site in a minute,
Speaker:but that's how they're compatible with each other.
Speaker:We're going to hear more about Kenny and Jennifer's story.
Speaker:Right after a word from our sponsor.
Speaker:This podcast is made possible thanks to the support of the
Speaker:ribbon print company.
Speaker:Create custom ribbons right in your store or craft studio in
Speaker:seconds. Visit the ribbon,
Speaker:print company.com
Speaker:for more information.
Speaker:How often are you guys on the road throughout the year?
Speaker:Oh, we have a calendar,
Speaker:if you could see it.
Speaker:It is Mark of a lot,
Speaker:I would say eight months,
Speaker:eight months out of the year.
Speaker:We're out there on the road,
Speaker:grinding it,
Speaker:doing the shows.
Speaker:I would say a solid eight to nine months.
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:and of course everyone's home.
Speaker:We'll have a weekend off.
Speaker:I think this entire,
Speaker:our season started really in like March and from March until
Speaker:Christmas, I think we have basically about five to six weekends
Speaker:off. When I say a weekend,
Speaker:a Saturday,
Speaker:rarely get a Saturday off.
Speaker:Is marvelous going to be do?
Speaker:Oh my gosh.
Speaker:And now you're in Tennessee right now,
Speaker:right? Yes.
Speaker:Okay, so I saw you in Illinois.
Speaker:Do you guys road trip to your shows?
Speaker:Tell me the logistics behind all of your shows.
Speaker:Like what is your life?
Speaker:Let's just go that.
Speaker:That's my job.
Speaker:This is when people are like,
Speaker:Oh I wish I had a Jen.
Speaker:Be careful.
Speaker:You might get start getting offers here.
Speaker:So there's a,
Speaker:of course you have to apply for your shows and once
Speaker:you get accepted into your show then you have to kind
Speaker:of start your roadmap.
Speaker:Of course we have to,
Speaker:because we are artwork,
Speaker:we ever tent.
Speaker:We have a walls,
Speaker:we have a very big heavy set up.
Speaker:Jewelers on the other hand can pack a suitcase,
Speaker:rent a tent and rent a table and they can fly
Speaker:everywhere. It's really beautiful us.
Speaker:On the other hand we have to log the road miles
Speaker:and so he booked your hotels and then it sort of
Speaker:like getting to the next show and you kind of map
Speaker:it out.
Speaker:And when we started out,
Speaker:especially when we do on the road,
Speaker:we would go from like Texas to Illinois and then to
Speaker:Florida and then back over to Texas,
Speaker:which is really not efficient and it was just very wearing
Speaker:on us.
Speaker:And so over time you will find out what shows worked
Speaker:for you or what markets,
Speaker:I should say,
Speaker:not necessarily shows what markets work for you.
Speaker:That's the most important thing.
Speaker:Say you're in Chicago,
Speaker:that's great because you're in a huge,
Speaker:huge market with millions of people that have so many different
Speaker:tastes, but then say like if you're in Memphis,
Speaker:Tennessee and you really try to break out into that market,
Speaker:I think what's important is for you to look at your
Speaker:stuff and go,
Speaker:maybe this is not something that's appropriate for not appropriate,
Speaker:but it's not receptive in Memphis.
Speaker:It doesn't mean that your product is not good by any
Speaker:means. It means that maybe it just requires a different audience
Speaker:and so being flexible to be able to travel,
Speaker:it does require just investing money.
Speaker:I think the first year that we decided to go out
Speaker:and start really going outside of New York,
Speaker:a friend of ours who's a fellow artist,
Speaker:he kind of took us under his wing and he was
Speaker:like, all right,
Speaker:here's the down and dirty.
Speaker:This is what you need to do.
Speaker:And we have been doing this for five or six years.
Speaker:We were doing like street fairs in New York.
Speaker:They were just one day off street fairs and then he
Speaker:was, you know,
Speaker:he told us like wait there for three or four days.
Speaker:Like yeah,
Speaker:yeah. It kind of blew my mind.
Speaker:And, and so we weren't green by any means,
Speaker:but he was like,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:I think that you are definitely ready to go to other
Speaker:places and you're ready to grow your business.
Speaker:Well, you grew this into a whole different level cause this
Speaker:is now,
Speaker:this is both your full time jobs.
Speaker:Oh yeah.
Speaker:I was full time for 10 years and years.
Speaker:Yeah. And you've chosen to up the game by being on
Speaker:the road a lot too.
Speaker:A lot of these shows.
Speaker:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker:And some of these shows you have to be invited to
Speaker:too. You don't just get to apply and go.
Speaker:All of these shows are Jerry chills at this point.
Speaker:But it wasn't in the beginning,
Speaker:right? No.
Speaker:All of them were.
Speaker:Um, there's only sort of like,
Speaker:not those street fairs fairs,
Speaker:you basically just show up 50 bucks and you show up,
Speaker:which was fine because we killed it there as well.
Speaker:I mean your neighbor might be grilled corn never side with
Speaker:the socks and that's a hard sell when you're selling artwork
Speaker:for like at the time was like maybe $15 and I
Speaker:was like,
Speaker:wait, I can get a rape or some corn or and
Speaker:get sucks.
Speaker:What do I need?
Speaker:Artwork, I don't know what I want to do yet.
Speaker:But it was weird for the us and probably the customer.
Speaker:My favorite experience,
Speaker:there was a woman one day selling Justin Bieber,
Speaker:I guess it was like the Beaver fever was like a
Speaker:very much a thing in that year.
Speaker:And there was this woman who was selling like two inch
Speaker:little round magnets.
Speaker:It was basically just a picture printed off and like slapped
Speaker:onto a magnet and she's selling five for $10 and then
Speaker:the lady came over and she was like,
Speaker:what do you mean I only get one for 15 and
Speaker:I was like,
Speaker:yes. And she referenced the buttons or the magnets and she's
Speaker:like, but I can get five.
Speaker:And I was like,
Speaker:well go buy the magnets.
Speaker:Yeah. Good,
Speaker:good, good.
Speaker:Yeah. I mean,
Speaker:but you were learning to write and I'm quite sure when
Speaker:you were doing the street fairs,
Speaker:you weren't envisioning where you are now.
Speaker:No, basically it was just survival.
Speaker:Yeah. So one thing advances to another and some people might
Speaker:not choose this lifestyle,
Speaker:especially if it's not a couple team.
Speaker:Like if it's someone who's would have to leave their family.
Speaker:So it depends what you want for your business,
Speaker:but this clearly is working for you.
Speaker:Yeah, I think in like sort of like a very,
Speaker:I guess a linear point.
Speaker:Basically Kenny made something,
Speaker:he bounced it off of me.
Speaker:I was like,
Speaker:this is great,
Speaker:you should run with that.
Speaker:And then he created something and he took it out and
Speaker:he had validation of this very nice lady and this gentlemen
Speaker:they bought and if they hadn't bought it that moment,
Speaker:like on that day,
Speaker:I don't know actually where we would be and we don't
Speaker:know who they are,
Speaker:whoever they are in the universe.
Speaker:If we can cross our paths,
Speaker:I'd be great.
Speaker:Like he had that validation and then it was just repeat
Speaker:and repeat and repeat for years and we like can,
Speaker:he was saying we had the luxury of being able to
Speaker:sell on the street,
Speaker:but if you don't have the luxury zone,
Speaker:the street start approaching boutiques,
Speaker:depending on what your product is and ask them like,
Speaker:Hey, would you be interested in like having a couple of
Speaker:cases in your store or go to a farmer's market if
Speaker:there's a craft section or just something.
Speaker:There's always sort of avenues for you to get your work
Speaker:seen by people.
Speaker:The big thing is it needs to be seen by people.
Speaker:Exactly. And some people are just too afraid to do that.
Speaker:To get out there,
Speaker:I'd say 80% or whatever percent of success is Just showing
Speaker:up. Yeah.
Speaker:Yep. So true.
Speaker:So at what point along your path did you actually formalize
Speaker:the company?
Speaker:So register it as a real business to move forward.
Speaker:It was in 2007 I think it was in March of
Speaker:2007 Okay.
Speaker:So were you able to do the street shows without being
Speaker:registered as a formal company?
Speaker:So way it works in York you had to have a
Speaker:tax ID and so once you have your tax ID,
Speaker:then you were allowed to,
Speaker:so in certain spots in union square park and other parks
Speaker:around New York,
Speaker:but there was a big thing around in Soho on Broadway.
Speaker:So like,
Speaker:yeah, there should be like a whole movie written about that
Speaker:time and those people,
Speaker:because it was insane.
Speaker:It was like a free-for-all,
Speaker:like there weren't any.
Speaker:Now there's really stringent rules on artists setting up.
Speaker:You have to be in front of these little medallions,
Speaker:but at the time like you could go out there and
Speaker:make some insane money just by just setting up your little
Speaker:art gallery on wheels Have stool will sell.
Speaker:Yeah, it was wild.
Speaker:It was,
Speaker:I met some of my soul,
Speaker:my really awesome,
Speaker:great friends I still have today those men on the street
Speaker:cause we were all going through this insane experience together like
Speaker:hanging out but selling artwork and I guess for listeners that
Speaker:have not actually been to New York and have this like
Speaker:very weird idea of sort of what we're,
Speaker:what we're talking about,
Speaker:right. Think of it in sort of like eliminates Dan when
Speaker:you were a kid.
Speaker:It's exactly almost like that's basically all it is.
Speaker:You just take your stuff and you have like a cute
Speaker:little setup and you just try to sell something and that
Speaker:was it.
Speaker:These are not polished setups by any means,
Speaker:But it sounds amazing for the sellers and the buyers alike.
Speaker:Right? Because the comradery you guys probably had together because it
Speaker:was so casual and then the amazing things.
Speaker:Someone like me could walk through and discover sounds fabulous.
Speaker:There's that romance that you hear about and movies are like,
Speaker:Oh, I went to Paris and then there's the artist next
Speaker:to the river and he's painting and I bought a charcoal
Speaker:sketch and basically that's what it was.
Speaker:That was what was happening in New York.
Speaker:It was a really amazing like four or five years to
Speaker:be part of,
Speaker:because those days they don't exist anymore.
Speaker:It's very scheduled and it's very constricted.
Speaker:Right. But the concept behind it,
Speaker:for those who are just starting today is the same.
Speaker:So you find a place to validate.
Speaker:First of all,
Speaker:you get the courage to put your art out there because
Speaker:intuitively you've decided it's ready to sell.
Speaker:Then you find the courage.
Speaker:You go out there,
Speaker:you try several times,
Speaker:not just once you adjust the product if you need to,
Speaker:you get validation of the product and then you move forward.
Speaker:Yeah, but you just keep doing it.
Speaker:Just keep repeat.
Speaker:Wake up.
Speaker:Think about what this thing is.
Speaker:Make it,
Speaker:get it in front of somebody.
Speaker:Repeat. As you do this,
Speaker:over time your confidence will go up.
Speaker:You will understand who your customer is,
Speaker:you will understand what your price points,
Speaker:your market,
Speaker:your all kinds of,
Speaker:you'll find out so much in the first year of business
Speaker:or even not even business,
Speaker:whatever. If that first from one year of the first day
Speaker:that you go out,
Speaker:one year later you will feel like a drastically different person.
Speaker:Well and noted.
Speaker:You didn't know everything right from the beginning.
Speaker:You figured it out as you went along.
Speaker:No, I knew zero.
Speaker:I started at baseline zero.
Speaker:You also,
Speaker:what I was saying earlier was that when we first got
Speaker:that sort of like that big push to be like,
Speaker:Hey, do one up,
Speaker:like go take this to the next level.
Speaker:I mean within two months we bought a really crappy mini
Speaker:van, mini van without a van.
Speaker:We bought a tent,
Speaker:we bought panels.
Speaker:We basically just dropped every single penny that we could scrounge
Speaker:out and we were like,
Speaker:well I hope this works out Faith.
Speaker:You had the faith for sure.
Speaker:Tell me the story behind the name.
Speaker:I mean obviously it comes from your last name,
Speaker:but how did that get figured out?
Speaker:Yeah, it's a part of my last name.
Speaker:Cannulas. My dad calls me doula.
Speaker:I have no idea why,
Speaker:but he just calls me doula.
Speaker:It's not having to thing to do with now when an
Speaker:actually a doula is,
Speaker:It was your little nickname,
Speaker:right? Yeah,
Speaker:well like pet named like dad gave me,
Speaker:so I just put the two together could do LA and
Speaker:it's just like a nonsensical fun word.
Speaker:And these characters are half things like half cat,
Speaker:half like Fox there bits and pieces are pushed together too.
Speaker:So it's,
Speaker:they're fun and weird and name is fun and weird.
Speaker:So I was like,
Speaker:all right,
Speaker:stick to it.
Speaker:It goes together perfectly.
Speaker:So that was not a hard part for you apparently to
Speaker:figure out the name.
Speaker:No. I remember I was on a job and I was
Speaker:talking to this guy and I was like,
Speaker:I don't think my name's going to cut it with these
Speaker:characters. Can't do this.
Speaker:It doesn't fit this thing.
Speaker:I mean I know the artists can have their name attached
Speaker:to it,
Speaker:but just to create like for branding or something,
Speaker:I thought it would come up with a weird word and
Speaker:I just came up with that.
Speaker:It's perfect.
Speaker:Perfect. Okay.
Speaker:I just want to touch a little bit on Etsy and
Speaker:how you got that started and we talked for a second
Speaker:about how you merge the two together in terms of the
Speaker:shows and then having people follow up on your Etsy site.
Speaker:But you started at T in 2007 cause that's really your
Speaker:marker in time of when you pretty much say that you
Speaker:firmly established the business.
Speaker:Yeah. I would say when the NC shock went live,
Speaker:I may have went like I've been going out but maybe
Speaker:like a week or two before that.
Speaker:Cause it was basically no,
Speaker:it was a couple months.
Speaker:It was a couple months.
Speaker:Yeah. And then I think after a couple months he was
Speaker:just like,
Speaker:I'm ready to do it.
Speaker:Let's just do it.
Speaker:Yeah. Okay.
Speaker:But so your immediate thought was we need an online presence
Speaker:as well?
Speaker:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker:Like, because Etsy had just,
Speaker:I mean it was like the beginning days of Etsy.
Speaker:Those were the great days of Etsy,
Speaker:right? Yeah.
Speaker:They were like,
Speaker:we're friends,
Speaker:we're like Etsy,
Speaker:what's that?
Speaker:And it was like you could buy something someone made in
Speaker:like Idaho and they'll ship it to you.
Speaker:And I was like,
Speaker:what? That sounds awesome.
Speaker:Okay. So yeah,
Speaker:I had like maybe 10 items on there at the beginning
Speaker:and then I remember one time and now I keep making
Speaker:more and more,
Speaker:but when I bought like 12 things one time and I
Speaker:was like,
Speaker:wait, this guy bought 12 things.
Speaker:Like that's insane.
Speaker:That's like I didn't have to go out.
Speaker:And so that,
Speaker:that just happened and I was eating dinner.
Speaker:I was,
Speaker:you didn't limit him.
Speaker:You didn't call and say no,
Speaker:you can only have six.
Speaker:No, I was like,
Speaker:please buy them.
Speaker:Buy more,
Speaker:buy more.
Speaker:I have an online presence,
Speaker:especially in today's like today's world.
Speaker:I think for me personally as a shopper,
Speaker:I really ever buy anything like right then and there,
Speaker:I like to go home.
Speaker:I like to kind of like think about it and it's
Speaker:like, do I still want this and now go online and
Speaker:I'll get it.
Speaker:But you know,
Speaker:repeat customers if you're not in the same place as your
Speaker:customer, you should be able to offer them ability to purchase.
Speaker:Yeah. I also think when you're at shows the squirrel syndrome,
Speaker:right? Like maybe someone's at your booth talking to you and
Speaker:then all of a sudden a friend comes and pulls them
Speaker:away and they're like,
Speaker:wait, wait,
Speaker:wait, wait,
Speaker:wait. Where they were looking at buying and don't get a
Speaker:chance to,
Speaker:but they grabbed your card as they were being pulled away
Speaker:or tiled need something or whatever it is.
Speaker:Well we have that happens a fair amount.
Speaker:Yes. So much.
Speaker:What does your online presence look like today?
Speaker:Are you still with that C We have at T but
Speaker:it's very bare bones at this day now we have a
Speaker:full fledged website.
Speaker:We try to direct everything to,
Speaker:I still like it seemed like the idea of at T
Speaker:but like,
Speaker:yeah, it's only bare bones.
Speaker:If you can only find our jars on there,
Speaker:you can find the whole rest of our work only on
Speaker:like the website and the website that you own.
Speaker:Oh yes.
Speaker:Yeah. Through Shopify.
Speaker:Like it's a Shopify site.
Speaker:Perfect. Love that.
Speaker:Yeah, because the thing is is that with Etsy,
Speaker:and I don't know if it's like this anymore,
Speaker:but when we were growing our online presence,
Speaker:we were like,
Speaker:I really want an address,
Speaker:a web address that is just our business name.
Speaker:I didn't want ww.etsy.com/could
Speaker:do law.
Speaker:Like I really wanted it just to be,
Speaker:could you lot.com
Speaker:and also at two used to be an a,
Speaker:maybe it still is membership only.
Speaker:So you had to log in through it and then in
Speaker:that case,
Speaker:a customer might get distracted by something that's sort of on
Speaker:a sidebar or somewhere else,
Speaker:or it's like,
Speaker:Oh, I was looking at this and now I'm in a
Speaker:totally different artists section of Etsy.
Speaker:And so for us,
Speaker:having the website specifically keeps people really focused on our shop
Speaker:at that moment.
Speaker:But at the beginning,
Speaker:I think having it to you was great because at the
Speaker:time it was like 20 cents or 25 cents to put
Speaker:something up.
Speaker:I mean for like a couple dollars you could have all
Speaker:your work.
Speaker:Bring everyone to see that at the beginning was definitely nice
Speaker:because it was cheap.
Speaker:Yeah, it's easy to print it up to,
Speaker:it's easy to put it up.
Speaker:Yeah, I think you're right.
Speaker:I think it's a great starter platform even to this day,
Speaker:but you're really smart.
Speaker:There's a couple of things that Etsy leaves you vulnerable with.
Speaker:Number one,
Speaker:you're not able to attract email addresses,
Speaker:so if you want to talk to people who have purchased,
Speaker:how are you going to do that?
Speaker:Like you're not able to send them any information or anything
Speaker:when they make a sale on Etsy.
Speaker:The other thing is what if they changed their rules?
Speaker:I know Etsy has gone through a lot of transformation since
Speaker:2007 what if they were to shut down?
Speaker:This is the same issue that there is with a Facebook
Speaker:page. If you're relying on selling through a Facebook page,
Speaker:if they decide to shut down,
Speaker:you're out of luck with your own website.
Speaker:Shopify specifically,
Speaker:I have one of my businesses on Shopify as well and
Speaker:love them.
Speaker:You're in complete control,
Speaker:right, of how it looks.
Speaker:Jennifer, to your point,
Speaker:you know what the pages look like and all of that.
Speaker:Plus you own it all.
Speaker:You got the information from your customer,
Speaker:like everything,
Speaker:so I love that you say that because it's a perfect
Speaker:example for our listeners.
Speaker:I will also say just in terms of diligence,
Speaker:in case anything crashes,
Speaker:you really should just export all of your contacts.
Speaker:Just make it a point to do like when you do
Speaker:your taxes,
Speaker:like every year,
Speaker:all your contacts that you have stored in these sort of
Speaker:online entities.
Speaker:Just create like an export like PDF or whatever.
Speaker:Just something to where you have them and print it off
Speaker:and have it on paper.
Speaker:Just somewhere in case something happens,
Speaker:you don't lose everything.
Speaker:Yeah, just in case.
Speaker:Yeah, good point.
Speaker:Very, very good point.
Speaker:Wonderful. Okay.
Speaker:We're going to need to start winding down here,
Speaker:but I want to hear about some type of a challenging
Speaker:moment for you guys and then what you did to overcome
Speaker:some big obstacle that you had within the business,
Speaker:whatever you're willing to share this.
Speaker:Like which one?
Speaker:There's a million.
Speaker:Yeah, there are so many.
Speaker:I mean it's a very scary point.
Speaker:Like right at the beginning,
Speaker:the middle where we are now.
Speaker:Let's see.
Speaker:Let me pick something.
Speaker:Let's do at the beginning because I think that's where so
Speaker:many people,
Speaker:they're just afraid to jump off into the waters Leaving my
Speaker:job. Ooh,
Speaker:good. Go with it.
Speaker:Kenny essentially had been going out for a solid year and
Speaker:a half at this point and was selling at shows and
Speaker:on the street and various different places.
Speaker:And he got to a point to where he was like,
Speaker:I really think that I would like you to help me
Speaker:run the business.
Speaker:And I was like,
Speaker:you want me to help you with your business?
Speaker:And he's like,
Speaker:no, I want you to run the business.
Speaker:I want you to quit your job.
Speaker:And after about five to six minutes of light riot is
Speaker:laughter because my job pays our bills and January and February
Speaker:when there's no going outside in New York because it's nothing
Speaker:but snow.
Speaker:It's a nerve wracking idea of just stopping your job.
Speaker:Having that security blanket taken away and just doing it.
Speaker:It's sort of like it's ripping off a bandaid.
Speaker:If you just do it and you really commit to it,
Speaker:it's over.
Speaker:It's done.
Speaker:And you'll know if it doesn't go well or you will
Speaker:succeed. And most times,
Speaker:and from that moment on that we've always taken that approach.
Speaker:We just literally jumped.
Speaker:We just do it.
Speaker:And sometimes it doesn't work.
Speaker:We're still alive and well it's not the end of the
Speaker:world, but most times if you really fully commit to something,
Speaker:it will work out.
Speaker:So Kenny,
Speaker:were you feeling like there was no way to grow this
Speaker:any further unless you had help?
Speaker:Yeah, because where I was,
Speaker:my idea was I could be selling at this part in
Speaker:union square and she could go out in another place and
Speaker:we could have two boosts and almost doubled down on sales.
Speaker:That's what I was thinking.
Speaker:Like how amazing it would be to like if one of
Speaker:us has an okay day,
Speaker:one of us has a great day,
Speaker:that's still good.
Speaker:Or if one of us has a really bad day,
Speaker:then the other person might have a good day.
Speaker:Yeah. So I was just trying to do two spots,
Speaker:just trying to,
Speaker:I guess double dip and um,
Speaker:I couldn't do that and I couldn't logistically like start making
Speaker:the items that I was doing.
Speaker:Right. Because the more you sell,
Speaker:the more work you've just created for yourself more.
Speaker:Yeah. And so is that how you guys started?
Speaker:Just double exposure then.
Speaker:Yeah, because at the end of the day,
Speaker:the more people that see your work,
Speaker:whatever you make,
Speaker:the more chance of somebody buying it.
Speaker:It's all about exposure.
Speaker:There's of course there's online,
Speaker:but in person really that kind of takes the cake for
Speaker:everything because they are not only buying a piece of artwork
Speaker:from you,
Speaker:like they're buying a piece of you,
Speaker:like you were speaking to them,
Speaker:and so in that moment it is a lot to that
Speaker:object. When they take it home,
Speaker:they're taking home that experience and that object.
Speaker:That's crazy because they tell our story to friends and then
Speaker:people will come up and they're like,
Speaker:Oh my gosh,
Speaker:my friends bought these and they're adorable,
Speaker:and then they're like,
Speaker:how was your dog?
Speaker:And I'm like,
Speaker:Oh my God,
Speaker:you know my whole story.
Speaker:Oh my gosh,
Speaker:yes. Well,
Speaker:yes, they fallen in love with you and they're buying now
Speaker:because it's you too.
Speaker:You're an overlay on top of all of it for sure.
Speaker:I know that you guys have divvied up the experience in
Speaker:terms of the creative and then the history behind each character.
Speaker:You've divided that.
Speaker:Do you each then have responsibilities throughout the whole business?
Speaker:Oh yeah.
Speaker:Um, so actually the characters did not have any kind of
Speaker:stories until I started working with Kenny because I had not
Speaker:created the piece itself.
Speaker:Being just a sales person,
Speaker:I was like,
Speaker:I don't really know how to speak to customers.
Speaker:I don't really know how,
Speaker:like I'm not invested in this because at that time Kenny
Speaker:was just,
Speaker:he was making this,
Speaker:this was his project.
Speaker:And so in order for me to kind of personalize it
Speaker:and take ownership of in a way that I can feel
Speaker:confident to sell it to somebody,
Speaker:I just kind of started making up stories.
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:the characters to me,
Speaker:because I never saw the individuals that they were drawn after
Speaker:were always very adorable and precocious and they had these huge
Speaker:personalities. And when I talked to customers,
Speaker:I would just kind of like tell them stories about these
Speaker:characters and it only became problematic,
Speaker:but in a very good way.
Speaker:In the end when people would come to Kenny and they're
Speaker:like, Oh,
Speaker:so which ones are dating?
Speaker:And he's like,
Speaker:Oh no,
Speaker:you talk to Jen.
Speaker:She's got all the scoop on the characters.
Speaker:Yeah. It was like totally her idea,
Speaker:her brainchild,
Speaker:which is brilliant because it allows people to connect with them
Speaker:on a more personal level.
Speaker:Like they get into the personality of the character and yeah,
Speaker:it just,
Speaker:it fully formed them.
Speaker:It completed them as a whole little guy.
Speaker:Little critter.
Speaker:Absolutely. Yeah,
Speaker:for sure.
Speaker:They're like her little candidates,
Speaker:like a little kid.
Speaker:I love all of them.
Speaker:I do play favorites even though I guess you have smashes
Speaker:appearance, but that's what I've been told.
Speaker:I have favorites,
Speaker:you know?
Speaker:But I do love them all equally.
Speaker:That's so adorable.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:Okay, so everybody,
Speaker:you guys have to go and look at all these characters.
Speaker:What I'd like to do at this point because you have
Speaker:given us such great information.
Speaker:I have so enjoyed listening to all of this learning more.
Speaker:I intentionally told you guys I didn't want to know the
Speaker:whole story cause I wanted to know and hear it just
Speaker:as all of our listeners are hearing it.
Speaker:But now in return I'd like to offer you a virtual
Speaker:gift. It's not a critter though.
Speaker:I'm sorry.
Speaker:It's a magical box containing unlimited possibilities for your future for
Speaker:what's next.
Speaker:So this is your dream or your goal of almost unreachable
Speaker:Heights that you'd wish to obtain.
Speaker:Please accept this gift and open it in our presence.
Speaker:What's inside your box?
Speaker:You're so very generous to give us two tickets to the
Speaker:Academy awards where we were not renamed for best animated short
Speaker:and we won.
Speaker:I love it.
Speaker:Love it.
Speaker:Wait, are you saying that there's video in the future?
Speaker:Yes, that is our longterm goal.
Speaker:We have some awesome short ideas and I think one is
Speaker:like heartbreakingly amazing.
Speaker:We're just,
Speaker:I think we're just waiting for the time to work with
Speaker:the right person to make it happen.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:like a Brown,
Speaker:the critters like bringing them to life.
Speaker:Yeah. Well what do you mean they are alive right on
Speaker:the screen and then a little animated short about five,
Speaker:seven minutes.
Speaker:Like a,
Speaker:yeah. So we need to move.
Speaker:We have short ideas and I mean we have stories working
Speaker:on storyboards,
Speaker:but it's a matter of collaborating with the right person to
Speaker:pitch these things to you.
Speaker:Like is a Beazer.
Speaker:They mean the world to us.
Speaker:They're essentially like our little kids and they live with us.
Speaker:They travel with us everywhere.
Speaker:They're very much intertwined in our life.
Speaker:And you mean somebody's permission to like have them and work
Speaker:with them?
Speaker:Kind of nerve wracking.
Speaker:It's like taking your kids to school for the first time.
Speaker:I understand that.
Speaker:I get that,
Speaker:but I so see that.
Speaker:I really do.
Speaker:I know it'd be totally awesome.
Speaker:Yeah. I'm cheering you on already.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:I love that Kenny and Jennifer,
Speaker:thank you so much.
Speaker:This has been amazing.
Speaker:I knew I was excited about having you guys on the
Speaker:show. I had no idea it was going to be so
Speaker:great. Thank you so much.
Speaker:I love that you've been here and I look forward to
Speaker:seeing you guys when you're back in my hometown again in
Speaker:a couple of weeks.
Speaker:Thanks. What an amazing story.
Speaker:Going from just a pastime of doodling on the subway to
Speaker:create an entire business of critters with personality in life.
Speaker:I can't help but smile.
Speaker:You really,
Speaker:really have to go and see these cute,
Speaker:adorable critters up next week we'll be hearing from another business
Speaker:owner who has found the key to getting big business from
Speaker:large corporate accounts and with the holiday coming.
Speaker:Big businesses have big budgets to spend on gifts and you
Speaker:may find just the thing to capture your rifle portion of
Speaker:this market that's next Monday,
Speaker:but for now it's a wrap.
Speaker:After you listened to the show,
Speaker:if you like what you're hearing,
Speaker:make sure to jump over and subscribe to the show on
Speaker:Apple podcasts.
Speaker:That way,
Speaker:you'll automatically get the newest episodes when they go live,
Speaker:and thank you to those of you who have already left
Speaker:a rating and review.
Speaker:By subscribing,
Speaker:rating, and reviewing,
Speaker:you help to increase the visibility of gift biz on wrapped.
Speaker:It's a great way to pay it forward to help others
