Industrial Talk is onsite at the OMG Quarterly Standards Meeting and chatting with Marcellus Buchheit, President and CEO of Wibu-Systems about "Trustworthiness in your digital transformation strategy". Tune in and hear more about the importance of trustworthiness and Marcellus's unique insights on this Industrial Talk.
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SUMMARY KEYWORDS
system, software, people, marcellus, security, world, iot devices, device, industrial, important, digital, liability, talk, safety, resilience, omg, company, industry, ot, conversation
00:04
Welcome to the Industrial Talk podcast with Scott Mackenzie. Scott is a passionate industry professional dedicated to transferring cutting edge industry focused innovations and trends while highlighting the men and women who keep the world moving. So put on your hard hat, grab your work boots, and let's get
00:21
right once again, welcome to Industrial Talk. And thank you very much for your support each and every day. This platform is dedicated to you industry heroes all around the world. You are bold, brave, you dare greatly you collaborate, you solve problems. You're making my life better, and you're making the world a better place. All right, you can tell by some of the noise in the background. There's some noise in the background. We are broadcasting from oxen, oxen, Austin, Texas, home of beef, big time, and we are at the OMG quarterly meeting, where a collection of very smart people are getting together, debating things and making our lives better and solving problems. That's what we're all about in the hot seat. Marcellus Wibu Systems right. All right, it's in the house. Let's get cracking. I'm gonna get it's not a conference. It's a meeting. Having a good meeting.
01:14
Yes, it was a good meeting is actually what are we meeting?
01:17
Yeah, you're not leaving. You're still here. I'm still here. What are you going to leave?
01:21
Tonight? I not leaving to eat the meeting ends today.
01:25
That's definitely yeah, for the ISC not okay, because I'm getting Why am I here till finally you get more? It isn't like I was thinking manner just keeping me in the salt mine here. working my tail off. All right. level set Marcellus. Give us a little background on who you are outside of the fact that I've been chirping trippin with you around this whole event and eating around you and drinking around.
01:49
Yes, I'm My name is Mercedes Buchheit. I'm president and CEO of Wibu-Systems USA. That's the US or North America subsidiary of Viva Systems AG, in Germany, what I co-founded in 1989. And this company is specialized on software licensing and software protection. But this is not the talk about
02:15
today. Well, no, I'm the I'm the captain of this ship. Mr. So let's just real quick, I have a question. Yep. So you started this company? What was the problem at the time? What do you do? You're just sitting there gone? Hey, this is a problem that needs to be solved.
02:28
Yeah. So the challenge was that you'll have a software package and you sell it on DVD or this time when it's on CD or whatever, or today, you download it, and you won't be sure that all the copies you sold. Pate. So your your licensing is direct, and be provided for software companies, this solutions.
02:54
I like that. All right. So you're part of industry IoT Consortium, which then you're part of a number of workgroups. But the one that we want to talk about is the trust worthiness for the listeners? What are you trying to accomplish in that group outside of the obvious trustworthiness? Like, it's obvious, but what is
03:17
he talking about? I suppose that's a mix of technical systems integration in this special IoT systems. And customer readiness is a group of five characteristics. And this probably give you the background how we come to these five characteristics. So before we have this, this IoT is based on technology. And from the it the industrial technology, the information technology moves in the industrial world with this IoT. And when you think about back what's important, you have hardware and software and you won't be happy. The first thing is, it should be reliable. In your software crash and your hardware crash, this is not working, you can't do it. So that was the first thing that I was everything. The second thing is, since we have internet, suddenly security gets very important. Everyone knows there's hiccups and everything. So security is the next very important step coming from the IT road. And then you have the third stuff which comes after that. This is privacy, your your data is your personal data, your social security card, your credit card whenever you have is in danger. So that's all stuff that it people said that's very, very important for us, maybe CQ is most important. So now you bring this technology to the OT Well, the operational technology. The people who work since 20 years with mechanics and cables and no computers on start a little bit computing and the guys who made them own. That's not important for us, but we need even safety. Safety is for us the most Important thing. And we want when something breaks, we can still go ahead walking liability, of course also absolutely important. Yeah. The need also the resilience when something breaks, you can still go ahead by software stores up to resilience you have a backup of a store, but this is not the big deal. So you have suddenly conflicts the IT people said security is everything. The same, the only thing people say safety is everything. Now you bring this together in this ot conversions, you know, conversion. Oh, yeah, challenge. Yeah, it was a mess you have, the better you have in this. And so to get this better coordinated, we said, okay, let's have a roof about that. And this is trustworthiness. So it has resonance, try to manage these five characteristics in a reliable, useful way.
05:54
So it's great that that's what was number one again, I got security, privacy, safety and resilience. What's the number one?
06:01
liability? That's the injury the common thing? I think everyone agrees that iPod venue venue system is not reliable, you cannot put you gotta calculate.
06:12
So you bring all these, these characteristics together. You you and your your workgroup, you have debated you talk about it, you declined because a lot of companies are saying I get you, I got it. But then there's this it ot convergence got that too. And I think the the newer thing is that oh T side, and if you're going down that world of digitally transforming. Yeah, that is what it is. You gotta you gotta be able to do it. In your and I'm not asking you to stick your neck out here. Yes, I am. In the five. I look at security as really important.
06:48
Yeah, security is I would say something when you mess this up. All the other four are in danger, too. Yeah, because a hiccup shut down the system, it's unreliability stores data, the privacy is gone. The resilience doesn't help anymore. So this security is practically something you cannot ignore. So that's what the it the OT people has to earn. Yeah. So security before into ot road West, we have a fence, we have locks, we're supposed to be Watchguard people. But suddenly you say, Wow, you have a Wi Fi. And people through the fence can access our Wi Fi remotely or with the internet, they come in to the internet and take our system, this is something you're has to learn. See,
07:33
that's a good point. I like that analogy that you just brought up about the fence ot I got the fence, I've got the guard, I've got the NOC and I got all that. But then then when we start talking about how do you digitize your your system, your solutions, right? Ah, whatever. And I'm just sort of pencil whipping. I don't need to have that security right there. And, quite frankly, it you got to have that conversation at the beginning. Now, with these five characteristics as the workshop goes through. Each one has a certain level of detail associated with what that means what, what is that reliability? And it's not just a chunk, you have details associated with that sort of defining
08:11
that All five have key definitions. We have new vocabulary done. So yeah.
08:17
And if I was an organization, I don't even know I have these. I don't you know, I'm just a manufacturer. I'm I'm concerned about my feedstock, and being able to produce that widget. Yeah. And now I'm supposed to think about all of these five characteristics, but but they're, they're on point. Yeah. How does that sort of normally happen? How do people come? Because you guys are offered this for? At no cost? I can get that document right there. Yeah, download it, but I have to realize that I need it.
08:50
Yes. So I mean, the liabilities. So the venue system works as normal. You have not disruptions? Yeah, it works as normal, then reliability cares about its days. So for example, you make predictive maintenance, you replace parts when they degrade, or you see your problem and you fix it, that's all your daily work, that's reliability, and may assume you make this right, everything is fine. But at the same time, you have of course care that your privacy data or not get tweaked and copied or abused. Yeah. So privacy in liability is what you really care. So now, you get a threat from outside. For example, someone tries to attack your firewall and your firewall is great and get rejected. But if you have already this attack, then the security part of the classrooms and this comes in so security practically guarantees that your data that your your your operations are not compromised with with with cyber attacks or with physical attacks do so we may not be the physical attack of course of the site of our security. If the resilience is, then something really breaks or something, your reliability failed you now the disruption and the resilience said, okay, there is a backup, there is something we didn't expect it happens but little prepared. So we try to prevent the worst for the system. So our system can continues maybe not into full power, but we try to save it. That's resilience. They say the same thing you have for safety, safety is the difference. Do resilience is always human related. You don't want someone get hurt. And this someone can be a guest, a customer, for example, the hospital Yeah, should not fall out of the bed should not get the shortage, hit by power or something, whatever. But is is that people are not hurt the environment get no damage. So people get indirect hurt or, and of course, you don't want anyone dies or something. So safety is not that my system should stay alive. My house should not run down. There's all resilience. But safety means two people are saying,
11:10
Yeah, I got people now. And what's interesting about this is not just when we start talking about trustworthiness, and in the focus in on what that means. That is a conversation that spans a lot of the the working groups, too. It's a conversation that can impact. Well, you got your digital twin, you got this. Yeah, it goes across multiple, you know, working groups, and consortiums. Yep. And that's where it's really interesting, because you guys are doing great work here. But you always have that mindset that you're going to also it could be applied over here, you have these conversations with other people and say, Hey, this is what we're doing. And that's important, we need to have that too.
11:56
Yeah, then you have like some digital information people see instantly, your efficiency goes higher, you save maybe consumption pods, yeah, so that's all exciting. But you have to tell the same side, when you go in digital information, you will risk that someone hacks your system is pleasing up. So you have to address security. Your safety system you probably barely established in your analog world, is maybe it's in digital. And it could be when you have a hiccup tech talking to you or your safety mechanism doesn't work anymore, because they're now part of the broken system. Before it was all analog. Now it's all digital. So you have to prepare that your system your safety needs also be enhanced and modified. And so it's ditch lunch. This classroom as in this is a fixed part of a successful digital transformation. See, this
12:51
is what I hear what you're saying. And I love it. Don't get me wrong, I'm all geeking out on it. But the reality is, is that let's say I'm I'm Scott manufacturer, that's my world. And I've been doing this forever. And I want to get that part out I'm concerned about this, this this real concerns about the economy or my feedstock or where I'm getting my parts, whatever it might be, and my maintenance and my reliability, my asset management and all the other stuff. But But what you're talking about too, is a dynamic system is not static. It's not I can't just I can't just say plug play Go and it all just takes care of itself. There is a dialogue there is an act action that is involved in this yes, yeah, that if you're gonna be playing and you got to manufacture and you're saying I got to go down this digital world jump on that train, you got to do this. Yes. There's no other way of getting around it.
13:50
You have to do it I mean, you your competitors doing it, do they have higher productivity when you stay in old technology you'll disappear it may be includes your product you sell or the way you sell it. And we have so many examples in the past where totally industries disappeared like think about using today as a typewriter or a mechanical calculation machine Yeah, but in the 1560s There won't be business and so you have to go with this all this digital information and Victor passwords in this you cannot escape from that. I mean, there is some some maybe some venue selling candles from your PBX from here pees in the background you can probably ignore it but then the customer says, oh, I need this you have to integrate you'll need a website for that I want to order online and suddenly you're on this process and then you get your online orders in and you're optimizing your manual check candle production process and you certainly digital company. Yeah, even with very traditional old product you don't even want to change.
14:56
Yeah, no, you're you're hitting on all cylinders. And what's interesting too, is you If I'm if I'm that manufacturer, I need trusted individuals, I need to collaborate with people who eat and drink this stuff like you and others within the OMG sort of structure. And what's great about that, is that you can, yes, I can go reach out to Marcellus. The question I have for you, is that you have Wibu Systems. And it's been around for a little while. Yes. And you're a part of this organization? Yes. Are you taking some of the stuff over here? And you're saying, hey, let's do it over there.
15:30
Yeah, we I mean, our company of traditional. So in the, in the PC business or in the NBA, expand this to IoT devices? Yeah, IoT devices in the past. Now, whatever devices you use in the OT world was not smart. There was not connected with with the with the Ethernet and all this stuff. But now you put more and more software in it. So this little device is brought from the principal, not much different than your cell phone, or your PC says, is dynamic applications. Joe, did you need or don't, you have features you use are not used. So all these licensing things, possibly interested for the software, who hands on these devices, and the software of these devices has, over time, the much higher value than the hardware. So the cops that they sell the guys who sell this device, they make their money with the software, and not today, they make a deal with...
Transcripts
00:04
Welcome to the Industrial Talk podcast with Scott Mackenzie. Scott is a passionate industry professional dedicated to transferring cutting edge industry focused innovations and trends while highlighting the men and women who keep the world moving. So put on your hard hat, grab your work boots, and let's get
00:21
right once again, welcome to Industrial Talk. And thank you very much for your support each and every day. This platform is dedicated to you industry heroes all around the world. You are bold, brave, you dare greatly you collaborate, you solve problems. You're making my life better, and you're making the world a better place. All right, you can tell by some of the noise in the background. There's some noise in the background. We are broadcasting from oxen, oxen, Austin, Texas, home of beef, big time, and we are at the OMG quarterly meeting, where a collection of very smart people are getting together, debating things and making our lives better and solving problems. That's what we're all about in the hot seat. Marcellus Wibu Systems right. All right, it's in the house. Let's get cracking. I'm gonna get it's not a conference. It's a meeting. Having a good meeting.
01:14
Yes, it was a good meeting is actually what are we meeting?
01:17
Yeah, you're not leaving. You're still here. I'm still here. What are you going to leave?
01:21
Tonight? I not leaving to eat the meeting ends today.
01:25
That's definitely yeah, for the ISC not okay, because I'm getting Why am I here till finally you get more? It isn't like I was thinking manner just keeping me in the salt mine here. working my tail off. All right. level set Marcellus. Give us a little background on who you are outside of the fact that I've been chirping trippin with you around this whole event and eating around you and drinking around.
01:49
Germany, what I co-founded in:
02:15
today. Well, no, I'm the I'm the captain of this ship. Mr. So let's just real quick, I have a question. Yep. So you started this company? What was the problem at the time? What do you do? You're just sitting there gone? Hey, this is a problem that needs to be solved.
02:28
Yeah. So the challenge was that you'll have a software package and you sell it on DVD or this time when it's on CD or whatever, or today, you download it, and you won't be sure that all the copies you sold. Pate. So your your licensing is direct, and be provided for software companies, this solutions.
02:54
I like that. All right. So you're part of industry IoT Consortium, which then you're part of a number of workgroups. But the one that we want to talk about is the trust worthiness for the listeners? What are you trying to accomplish in that group outside of the obvious trustworthiness? Like, it's obvious, but what is
03:17
he talking about? I suppose that's a mix of technical systems integration in this special IoT systems. And customer readiness is a group of five characteristics. And this probably give you the background how we come to these five characteristics. So before we have this, this IoT is based on technology. And from the it the industrial technology, the information technology moves in the industrial world with this IoT. And when you think about back what's important, you have hardware and software and you won't be happy. The first thing is, it should be reliable. In your software crash and your hardware crash, this is not working, you can't do it. So that was the first thing that I was everything. The second thing is, since we have internet, suddenly security gets very important. Everyone knows there's hiccups and everything. So security is the next very important step coming from the IT road. And then you have the third stuff which comes after that. This is privacy, your your data is your personal data, your social security card, your credit card whenever you have is in danger. So that's all stuff that it people said that's very, very important for us, maybe CQ is most important. So now you bring this technology to the OT Well, the operational technology. The people who work since 20 years with mechanics and cables and no computers on start a little bit computing and the guys who made them own. That's not important for us, but we need even safety. Safety is for us the most Important thing. And we want when something breaks, we can still go ahead walking liability, of course also absolutely important. Yeah. The need also the resilience when something breaks, you can still go ahead by software stores up to resilience you have a backup of a store, but this is not the big deal. So you have suddenly conflicts the IT people said security is everything. The same, the only thing people say safety is everything. Now you bring this together in this ot conversions, you know, conversion. Oh, yeah, challenge. Yeah, it was a mess you have, the better you have in this. And so to get this better coordinated, we said, okay, let's have a roof about that. And this is trustworthiness. So it has resonance, try to manage these five characteristics in a reliable, useful way.
05:54
So it's great that that's what was number one again, I got security, privacy, safety and resilience. What's the number one?
06:01
liability? That's the injury the common thing? I think everyone agrees that iPod venue venue system is not reliable, you cannot put you gotta calculate.
06:12
So you bring all these, these characteristics together. You you and your your workgroup, you have debated you talk about it, you declined because a lot of companies are saying I get you, I got it. But then there's this it ot convergence got that too. And I think the the newer thing is that oh T side, and if you're going down that world of digitally transforming. Yeah, that is what it is. You gotta you gotta be able to do it. In your and I'm not asking you to stick your neck out here. Yes, I am. In the five. I look at security as really important.
06:48
Yeah, security is I would say something when you mess this up. All the other four are in danger, too. Yeah, because a hiccup shut down the system, it's unreliability stores data, the privacy is gone. The resilience doesn't help anymore. So this security is practically something you cannot ignore. So that's what the it the OT people has to earn. Yeah. So security before into ot road West, we have a fence, we have locks, we're supposed to be Watchguard people. But suddenly you say, Wow, you have a Wi Fi. And people through the fence can access our Wi Fi remotely or with the internet, they come in to the internet and take our system, this is something you're has to learn. See,
07:33
that's a good point. I like that analogy that you just brought up about the fence ot I got the fence, I've got the guard, I've got the NOC and I got all that. But then then when we start talking about how do you digitize your your system, your solutions, right? Ah, whatever. And I'm just sort of pencil whipping. I don't need to have that security right there. And, quite frankly, it you got to have that conversation at the beginning. Now, with these five characteristics as the workshop goes through. Each one has a certain level of detail associated with what that means what, what is that reliability? And it's not just a chunk, you have details associated with that sort of defining
08:11
that All five have key definitions. We have new vocabulary done. So yeah.
08:17
And if I was an organization, I don't even know I have these. I don't you know, I'm just a manufacturer. I'm I'm concerned about my feedstock, and being able to produce that widget. Yeah. And now I'm supposed to think about all of these five characteristics, but but they're, they're on point. Yeah. How does that sort of normally happen? How do people come? Because you guys are offered this for? At no cost? I can get that document right there. Yeah, download it, but I have to realize that I need it.
08:50
Yes. So I mean, the liabilities. So the venue system works as normal. You have not disruptions? Yeah, it works as normal, then reliability cares about its days. So for example, you make predictive maintenance, you replace parts when they degrade, or you see your problem and you fix it, that's all your daily work, that's reliability, and may assume you make this right, everything is fine. But at the same time, you have of course care that your privacy data or not get tweaked and copied or abused. Yeah. So privacy in liability is what you really care. So now, you get a threat from outside. For example, someone tries to attack your firewall and your firewall is great and get rejected. But if you have already this attack, then the security part of the classrooms and this comes in so security practically guarantees that your data that your your your operations are not compromised with with with cyber attacks or with physical attacks do so we may not be the physical attack of course of the site of our security. If the resilience is, then something really breaks or something, your reliability failed you now the disruption and the resilience said, okay, there is a backup, there is something we didn't expect it happens but little prepared. So we try to prevent the worst for the system. So our system can continues maybe not into full power, but we try to save it. That's resilience. They say the same thing you have for safety, safety is the difference. Do resilience is always human related. You don't want someone get hurt. And this someone can be a guest, a customer, for example, the hospital Yeah, should not fall out of the bed should not get the shortage, hit by power or something, whatever. But is is that people are not hurt the environment get no damage. So people get indirect hurt or, and of course, you don't want anyone dies or something. So safety is not that my system should stay alive. My house should not run down. There's all resilience. But safety means two people are saying,
11:10
Yeah, I got people now. And what's interesting about this is not just when we start talking about trustworthiness, and in the focus in on what that means. That is a conversation that spans a lot of the the working groups, too. It's a conversation that can impact. Well, you got your digital twin, you got this. Yeah, it goes across multiple, you know, working groups, and consortiums. Yep. And that's where it's really interesting, because you guys are doing great work here. But you always have that mindset that you're going to also it could be applied over here, you have these conversations with other people and say, Hey, this is what we're doing. And that's important, we need to have that too.
11:56
Yeah, then you have like some digital information people see instantly, your efficiency goes higher, you save maybe consumption pods, yeah, so that's all exciting. But you have to tell the same side, when you go in digital information, you will risk that someone hacks your system is pleasing up. So you have to address security. Your safety system you probably barely established in your analog world, is maybe it's in digital. And it could be when you have a hiccup tech talking to you or your safety mechanism doesn't work anymore, because they're now part of the broken system. Before it was all analog. Now it's all digital. So you have to prepare that your system your safety needs also be enhanced and modified. And so it's ditch lunch. This classroom as in this is a fixed part of a successful digital transformation. See, this
12:51
is what I hear what you're saying. And I love it. Don't get me wrong, I'm all geeking out on it. But the reality is, is that let's say I'm I'm Scott manufacturer, that's my world. And I've been doing this forever. And I want to get that part out I'm concerned about this, this this real concerns about the economy or my feedstock or where I'm getting my parts, whatever it might be, and my maintenance and my reliability, my asset management and all the other stuff. But But what you're talking about too, is a dynamic system is not static. It's not I can't just I can't just say plug play Go and it all just takes care of itself. There is a dialogue there is an act action that is involved in this yes, yeah, that if you're gonna be playing and you got to manufacture and you're saying I got to go down this digital world jump on that train, you got to do this. Yes. There's no other way of getting around it.
13:50
tion machine Yeah, but in the:
14:56
Yeah, no, you're you're hitting on all cylinders. And what's interesting too, is you If I'm if I'm that manufacturer, I need trusted individuals, I need to collaborate with people who eat and drink this stuff like you and others within the OMG sort of structure. And what's great about that, is that you can, yes, I can go reach out to Marcellus. The question I have for you, is that you have Wibu Systems. And it's been around for a little while. Yes. And you're a part of this organization? Yes. Are you taking some of the stuff over here? And you're saying, hey, let's do it over there.
15:30
Yeah, we I mean, our company of traditional. So in the, in the PC business or in the NBA, expand this to IoT devices? Yeah, IoT devices in the past. Now, whatever devices you use in the OT world was not smart. There was not connected with with the with the Ethernet and all this stuff. But now you put more and more software in it. So this little device is brought from the principal, not much different than your cell phone, or your PC says, is dynamic applications. Joe, did you need or don't, you have features you use are not used. So all these licensing things, possibly interested for the software, who hands on these devices, and the software of these devices has, over time, the much higher value than the hardware. So the cops that they sell the guys who sell this device, they make their money with the software, and not today, they make a deal with the hardware. But over time, you think more and more mechanical elements like like buttons or radio buttons or anything or cold bars or anything, take this out? You'll replace it with a touchscreen? Yeah. Because the customer one does use his cell phone and said, Why is my cell phone too easy, and your device is difficult. And what a touchscreen, the touchscreen is cheaper, then all these mechanical things, but the software, you get the touchscreen shows I'm seeing in fact, on the on the press is probably 10 or 100 times more expensive to develop, then all your devices. So yeah, definitely you say, hey, the software can be copied. Everyone can can use to Sofia them, I have to protect it. And then our business is in IoT device. And that's the reason why my company is part of the IOC.
17:16
Because your once again, it is interesting, because I know and I've seen it out there, and then what what has happened was, all of a sudden the cost of these devices, these IoT devices are starting to go down, right. And
17:30
I think they're probably tied to keep the price but they get
17:33
smarter, smarter, they have greater value
17:37
to stand in front of so the IoT device may be a sends off on temperature, and you want to change from Celsius to Fahrenheit, and you don't know how that works. You have certainly a help. But you maybe have a little video running, who shows you what to do you have not heard back in your office and get your your find your instructions. Yeah. And that is higher productivity. In easy explain why. So you put more and more complexity in this video device. And you have today hardware like raspberry pi is super cheap. You can have this really complex software with volume that you've ordered in 4k Video Download. Yeah, it can be shown but you have to develop. That's all. That's the work. And we put
18:20
and what's what's also easy as like there has to be some sort of there has to be, I guess discipline, when it comes to this whole digital transformation and being able to do it in a way that makes sense and have the conversations like yeah, I want to scale it. I'm starting here, but you have a a more macro look and view. But you're right, these devices are not just like a vibration device, which they have. It's not there. But there's there's sophisticated software in there. Yes. That that is meant to deliver more value. Yes. And it just keeps on doing that and, and allow it. You know, you know, I had a company that gave me a little vibration device. It's just a magnet. And he's sticking on his like, oh, yeah, here we are. We're gonna deploy it snap. There it is gone. Yeah, even I can do it. Yeah. Right. And that says a lot. Yeah. Lots of simplicity. Make it easy. Oh, you are just you're on all cylinders. I was looking forward to this conversation. And you know what? You didn't disappoint. You didn't? You didn't disappointed. Oh,
19:29
thank you. Thanks for inviting me.
19:33
You know, why wouldn't I? You're the famous Marcellus, Wibu Systems. You're a legend around here. Everybody knows you. I'm gonna get a hold of you. Let's say they want to get a hold of Marcellus what do they do?
19:45
Oh, they said go on my website, fake my email and Weibull www v bucha.com. Wibu.com
19:53
There it is, man. I'm gonna have all your contact. Your your business card has a lot of meat on it. There's a lot of things you want to get contacted,
20:03
not by phone, I hate phone.
20:07
ourselves. Thank you very much. All right, listeners, we're gonna wrap it up on the other side, we're gonna have all the contact information for Marcellus out there. So you need to contact at a minimum, find out more about Wibu Systems. That's an important, important business to know about. All right, we will be right back.
20:24
You're listening to the Industrial Talk, Podcast Network.
