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Fellowship & Faith: How are Christians Called to Engage Culture? (Ep 76)
Fellowship & Faith Episode 76 • 15th August 2024 • My Ministry Mission • Jason McConnell
00:00:00 00:59:21

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I am excited to be hosting the second Fellowship & Faith conversation with some amazing guests to try and answer the question “How are Christians Called to Engage Culture?”

Rick & Jane McKinney

Mark Stouffer

  • Hesed, Book – The L-rd’s lovingkindnesses (ḥesed) indeed never cease, for His compassions never fail. They are new every morning; great is Thy faithfulness. “The L-rd is my portion,” says my soul, “therefore, I have hope in Him.” The L-rd is good to those who wait for Him, to the person who seeks Him.
  • Mark Stouffer’s Twitter

Mark Collins

References to Bible Verses:

Genesis 1:26-28; 2 Timothy 1:7; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 5:20

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Transcripts

Jason: ​Hello and welcome. My name is Jason and I'm your host. I am excited to be hosting the second Fellowship in Faith conversation with some amazing guests to try to answer the question, how are Christians called to engage culture? In John 17, we're kind of gifted with the most amazing recorded prayer in the Bible.

And in verse 14, Jesus tells us, "I have given them your word and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world." And in this context, the term world seems to kind of refer to cultures and belief systems that rejected God and His authority. And if we look around at modern day culture, we see it is still ripe with sin, hate, anti Christian and anti God influences.

So how do we live in this world, in this culture, and still remain in Jesus while engaging with the culture around us? Is that even possible? That's what I'm hoping we can settle in today's fellowship and faith.

So I'm blessed to have some really amazing guests joining me today. And I'd like to introduce all the listeners to you guys.

All of the wonderful people on this episode have been guests of my podcast before, so this should be a pretty great conversation. We'll start with Mark Stouffer. He is the author of a series of books that describes the foreshadowing of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament for the primary purpose of educating the Jewish community.

But there's some amazing content in these books. It's good for all Christians or anyone even curious about Christ. Mark joined me for episode 66 and I'm happy to have him and his unique perspective with us here today. So welcome Mark. We'll say Mark S.

Mark Stouffer: Thank you. It's my honor to be here.

Jason: And then we have Mark Collins. We'll call him Mark C. He joined us for episode 73. Talking about his life mastery program, he spent a decade or so building this program to teach Christian men how to live a life of freedom by fostering a relationship with God. We had a fantastic discussion and I'm excited to have him join us for this conversation as well. So welcome other Mark.

Mark Collins: I appreciate it. I'm excited to be a part of the conversation.

Jason: And last, but certainly not least, we have Rick and Jane McKinney who have blessed me with their wisdom on episodes 42 and 58, where we had some amazing conversations about Jesus and their books, "And So...We Walked" as well as "Until The Whole World Knows." I know their wisdom and insight will be incredibly valuable today.

So welcome Rick and Jane, and thank you for being here.

Rick McKinney: Great to be here. Thanks for inviting us.

Jason: Now, before we go too far, each of these guests, these amazing people have links in the show notes to their books or business, as well as their social media. I strongly urge you to go check them out. They are blessed by God doing some amazing work and have great wisdom, so definitely go check out all of their links.

All right, are you guys ready to get started?

Jane McKinney: We are.

Jason: So I touch on this idea of culture being somewhat synonymous to what the Bible refers to as the world in the introduction. Does that seem like a fair assessment? We'll start there.

Mark Stouffer: Yeah, I think this is a very important topic. We're all in this crazy time of history and this crazy culture and we're representing Jesus and it's, and we are facing pressure to be quiet about our beliefs and, but how, how do we respond? So I'm really glad you have this idea to have this conversation today.

Jane McKinney: I agree. I really feel like, the culture today is counter Christian and we are living in a world, but we are not of this world and I do appreciate this, this whole idea that you've got, Jason, it's going to be great.

Jason: Yeah. That's great.

Mark Collins: think for myself, it's, it's an interesting word, culture versus the world. Right.

Jane McKinney: Mm hmm.

Mark Collins: and understanding that for sure, it is the world that we live in and the things that we're around, but really it's, I think it kind of goes a little bit deeper to the, the kind of the practices, the norms, what you think has value, what you think don't have value, which obviously as everybody on this podcast knows is.

You know, encapsulated in the world when Jesus was talking about it is, is all of those things at the time. And I love Mark's perspective and that Old Testament into New Testament, because I think a lot of times we forget it was. Not just a group of people at a time, but the practices that they had and the things and the fascinating thing about the word of God and specifically Jesus's ministry was he was speaking into a culture, like you said, you know, the norms, the practices, the ideas that they had, not, not necessarily the world around them, but the Jews of the time, the Jewish people and the understanding they had of themselves, their impact in their world and what it was going to look like. So interesting, perspective. I'm excited to kind of unpack it here with these folks who obviously know a lot about it.

Rick McKinney: Jason important that we, we realize though that culture and world are not completely synonymous. Remember the world was created by a good God. And there are lots of great things In the world. And I think one of the mistakes Christian makes sometimes is that we condemn all of the world based on what's happening in our culture.

And, and that's important to, to try to segregate those two things because God made this world and he made it good and he put a lot of good things in it. And so. It kind of goes to that old expression, throwing the baby out with the bath water. We have to be careful because, this is God's creation.

We used to sing an old hymn, that said, this is my father's world. And so it is our father's world, but there's a whole lot of bad stuff that because of sin has, Become a part of that world. So I think when we're talking about how we engage the world, we engage the world with that understanding that we're not condemning God's creation or the things that he has sanctioned, but just the perversion of those things that sin has caused.

, no, sorry.:

And it wasn't until later 19th century that we put this idea of, of it describing ways of a civilization. So that's a really good point. And you're right. You know, God created this world, we screwed it up and he's trying to fix it. There's a little bit of uncomfort in, in the time that we're in. So, but is there, is there a better definition for culture?

Is there a Biblical definition for culture that we should wrap our minds around? We're going to talk about it. I want to frame it so that, we're all on the same page.

Jane McKinney: That's a stumper.

Jason: I know, right? The closest I could get was Genesis 1:26-28, where it kind of tells us two things, God created us in this image, but be fruitful and multiply fill the earth and then have dominion over it. And so God created us, commanded us to fill the earth and gave us dominion over it.

And my mind puts culture is what we do with what God created and gave to us. That's kind of how I framed it in my mind, but I wanted to get some feedback on that.

Rick McKinney: Yeah, I think culture, at least this isn't an all inclusive definition, but for me, I define culture as how humanity interacts with God's purpose and plan. So, Sometimes, culture agrees with that purpose and plan and lives within it. Sometimes culture, becomes antagonistic toward that plan.

And so when we look at culture, there, there are multiple cultures. There are cultures where, uh, they don't even recognize the presence of God. Jane and I just spent three weeks in the UK and it is amazing to me how absent anything spiritual is from most of the places you go. I mean people walk by churches and don't think anything about it.

God is never mentioned. There's just no spirituality in most of the places we visited. Even historic cathedrals. It's all looked at as historical and without the presence of God or the purpose of God. That's culture. That's the way we're interacting with who God is. We're rejecting it. So that's that's part of a culture that's negative and anti God.

But there are also our cultures within fellowships of believers, that are very intent on living out the purpose and plan of God. And that culture is the culture that God wants. So it's not just the world. It's not just the people, the world, but it's how we interact with God. I think that, that at least from this spiritual dimension, I know there are lots of cultural, ramifications, but at least in this spiritual discussion, I think it's how we interact with the purpose and plan of God.

Mark Collins: That's an interesting concept. And I, I think, yeah, I think you could potentially split it into two, right? How, how you interact with your world and how you interact with a higher being, you know, cultures throughout all of time have had, an idea of spirituality and an idea of kind of a Godhead and, and, or an absence of it.

But I think a lot of it is what is, what is my interaction with my world and does God have a part of it? Like you talked about it in Europe and in places, you know, I'm, we're in the United States and, and it's common here as well that God isn't a part of people's culture or their practices. So I think it's kind of an interesting duality of the two and really where there's, an impact of one on the other, me, me impacting, you know, my culture, the people that are around me with a belief of God or with a lack thereof.

And what the outcome is of that is, is a culture that has, that thrives, that's healthy, that's spiritually vibrant or one that's not.

Jane McKinney: Right. That's right. So so I think Jason what you're after today is how we as Christians can Influence the culture that is not interacting with God. I mean basically is that what you're after?

Jason: Yeah, that's a good, well, and it's, it's not just

Jane McKinney: I mean, it's Simplistic, but yeah,

Jason: yeah, it's that on top of, how do we engage the culture that, that doesn't align with God?

Jane McKinney: okay.

Jason: cause it's all around us. Like

Jane McKinney: Oh, yeah. Oh,

Jason: anybody watching the Olympics? I mean, it's out there.

Mark Stouffer: Yeah.

Jane McKinney: Don't get me started

Jason: Fair enough. enough.

Rick McKinney: Well, I think what I Jason I think the the first thing we have to decide is that we're not going to disengage from culture Which is the normal Christian Church practice is to disengage. To separate ourself and to isolate ourselves. We're to be insulated from the world, but not isolated from it and so there has to be an intentional Decision on our part to interact with, the world and not to withdraw from it.

Because if we withdraw from it, we can't make any difference. We won't have any influence. Our light can't shine. We can't be salt if we're completely segregated from the world. And that, that unfortunately, over the last 50 years or so has really become the cry of many conservative evangelicals of which I consider myself one. That we should withdraw and we should take everything that we can out of the world and kind of live in our own little bubble. And I think when we do that, we do a disservice to the Gospel because the Gospel is to be, interacted with the world that doesn't know Jesus yet.

Jane McKinney: Right.

Jason: Yeah. 2 Corinthians 5 tells us we're ambassadors for Christ

Jane McKinney: Right. Right.

Jason: and, you know, you were talking about, I think I have a note here, Matthew 5 was the, salt of the earth. So yeah, it's clear that biblically we are called to be a part of this culture, or to try to influence it.

But, but. Good flip on that is how does the culture influence us because as I was, you know, doing my digging and researching, I found, uh, Jason Hiles, I would note here, Jason Hiles, Ph. D. Dean of the College of Theology at Grand Canyon University said, "Everyone, no matter where they come from starts somewhere culturally." So what, what impact does that have when they're walking into a church? Are they bringing that with them? You know, is that good or bad? Those are questions I don't necessarily have answers to.

Jane McKinney: Yeah, absolutely. They bring it with them. Whether it's good or bad is. is how they, how they relate that culture to God and to other people and what kind of influence they have.

Rick McKinney: And sometimes if we make that judgment that it's bad, this is one of the things that causes us to disengage from our culture, because people know that they sense that when somebody walks into the church, and they are ostracized or looked down upon or not accepted, or in some way segregated away from the rest of the congregation, they understand that.

And they understand that that's judgment on our part that says, You're not as good as us. We don't approve of your lifestyle. We don't like your culture. And if you want to change to our culture, great. If you don't, you're not welcome. And we may never speak those words, but our attitudes speak that, so many times, and we all have to be careful about that.

It's just. I think it's a natural tendency for us to want to be around people that are like us, but that's not, that's not what the Gospel does. The Gospel drives us to those who are not like us,

Mark Stouffer: I just agree with that. I was, a friend included me in, some street ministry. And as we were driving down to an, poor urban area to see who we could meet, he prayed the most beautiful prayer in the car and he prayed that Jesus would give us the same compassion he had for people he met on the streets of Jerusalem.

And I can't tell you what a difference that prayer made. He just prayed that. And I prayed in my heart with him. And when we were there, we met some very destitute people. And I was just. Felt love for them and saw their pain. Yeah, that was their choices. They were drug addicted and, and so on and so forth.

But I, I just felt, and Jesus just wanted to deliver them from that out of grace. And, and so it changed my heart in that moment. God answered my friend's prayer. And so I'm agreeing with you. We need to present grace to people and that's what he did, whether it was prostitutes or, you know, whoever that was the way he treated individuals.

Mark Collins: I really like what Mark said, and it's interesting, right? Because the question is how does culture impact the church? And really, at least in my own heart, what it comes down to is it impacts us at the level we allow it to. And so you could talk about culture from a standpoint of, okay, you know, you talked about the Olympics, or you could talk about music, or you could talk about media, or you could talk about, you know, entertainment in Hollywood and those things.

And right. How much is that bleeding into the church? Really the question is, well, I don't want to reframe it, and we can talk about that at another time. But the question for me is how much of the culture am I allowing to impact me? Cause here's the truth, right? What, what Rick was talking about is, is, I mean, if we can be totally honest, sometimes the culture and the folks around us who don't know Jesus are doing a better job at blessing the world than we are.

Jane McKinney: That's right. Absolutely.

Mark Collins: is that insular thing that, that Rick and Jane talked about.

Jane McKinney: That's the truth. Yeah.

Mark Collins: So there is, there is value in like what Mark was saying. You know, nonprofits and organizations that are helping the poor are doing work that Jesus called us to, and for sure we want to be a part of it. So, I think with culture, it's recognizing, hey, where is there, a God value being displayed, maybe if God's not there, and valuing that thing.

Versus am I allowing things to influence me so that I can have the same glitz and the same glamor or the same, non biblical tolerance? I'll say, for everything around me, just as a place of inclusivity. So, really, what it comes down to, at least in my own heart is. It can impact me as much as I allow it to, and my ability to allow it to is dependent on my relationship with God.

What I mean is, if I have a foundational understanding of relationship, if I'm trying to walk out the things that Jesus has called me to, then the things that will influence me are the things that align with what I believe Jesus is calling me into, helping the poor, you know, blessing those who are cursed and, and, and giving water to those who didn't have a right, visiting the prisoners and those kinds of things.

So I think at the end of the day, it is who am I in my culture matters more than what my culture is around me, because that's the thing that's going to impact the world and give me a, a correct barometer of, how much do I allow in only those things that align with God or anything that seems cool and important at the moment.

Rick McKinney: Right, Jason, I think, I think one of the important points we need to make here is that sometimes, and this is almost heretical, I guess, in some people's mind, but sometimes we need to let the world influence us in those areas, as Mark said, where they're doing a better job than we are. I heard a person one time say that. If you think about that old television program, Cheers. If any of you remember that, when, when somebody would walk into the bar, everybody would call their name, buy them a drink. When somebody was upset, they would cry with them. When somebody was excited, they would rejoice with them. And somebody said, that's why people would rather go to a tavern than to church, because when I go to church, people turn up their nose at me, if I share my problems with them, they want to judge me, all those kinds of things, they don't know who I am.

And so, when we look at something like the tavern, environment or culture, or, or many aspects of the world, they're doing a much better job at welcoming people, loving people, taking care of people, feeding the homeless, building homes for, people who don't have a place to live, than the church is.

And we need to look at the world and be honest with ourself and say, "Hey is the culture doing a better job here than I am?" I heard somebody say once our old pastor used to say people haven't been, people don't go to church because they've been to church. That tells something about our culture, as a church.

Versus where people are going and want to be a part of, one of our favorite places to eat is Texas Roadhouse. We ate there last night. They've changed a little bit in the last few years since the pandemic, but I used to love to go there because they line danced and they hooped and hollered and they welcomed you on your birthday.

And it was a great fun place. And so many times we've been sitting there eating and I've said, I wish church was more like this.

Jason: Right.

Rick McKinney: We have to, we have to look at where we have failed to allow God to speak into our lives about being good because we're so afraid of being like the culture. I think that we sometimes shy away.

Jason: Yeah. Well, apostle Paul was the one that said I become slave to everyone so that I may convert them, but he became like them. He didn't become them. He didn't engage in, in the cultural behaviors that were against Christ teaching, but he's like, you know, I'm, I'm governed by, by Christ, but I'm going to come here and be like you for a little bit so that I can teach you what I know, and we forget that a lot.

Jane McKinney: I'm,

Mark Collins: great word. And I'm sorry. Go ahead, Jane.

Jane McKinney: well, I was just going to say, well, I was going to kind of change the subject. So if you want to go ahead, Mark, go ahead.

Mark Collins: Well, I was just what I love about what you said. Thank you, Jane. What I love about what you said, Jason, is that it aligns with what Mark was saying. And this is the radicalness that I love about Jesus that sometimes we forget is the things that were counter control the people that he was going to associate with.

And he did associate with with the ones that society look down on. And sometimes, you know, again, what Mark was saying, that street ministry and, and, and, you know, allowing prostitutes to be in your company and, and, and having dinner with tax collectors and those things that he did where he showed value to those that the world thought was valueless.

And I think that's, you know, I think, you know, I don't want to be prophetic in any way, but I think there's a portion of the church that desires that kind of Christianity, that authentic, um, walk. And so I love what you said there and how it ties into what Mark was, Demonstrating in what he and he was doing at that street ministry as well.

Jane McKinney: Yeah, what I was going to say was, as our old pastor said, people don't go to church because they've been. And the old, the old mentality, which is still prevalent today was if you build it, they will come and sorry, I stole your line, but, um, they're, they're not, they're not coming for the most part. The culture outside the church, they're not coming.

And so my new line of thought that I was going to bring in, Jason was that we have to go to them. We have to get outside the four walls like Mark did and, and go to them. Because they're not coming.

Jason: And, and, you know, I mean, Put your book out there too much, Rick. But, but it's such a perfect example of the, the, "Until The Whole World Knows" has all these little tips and tricks about ways that we can minister to others, ways that we can spread the Gospel and witness. And some of that stuff I've built on, like we've got, in fact, our church has been doing this people in our church, not the church itself, but we go out and get those granola bars that are like, you know, they have a half life, they never go bad.

And we'll, we'll, you know, Snap a tract or, or, you know, some information about Jesus on it. And when we see somebody who's, who's homeless, you know, you don't necessarily want to give them money. Cause you don't know what they're going to do with it, but we give them granola bar or a bottle of water or something with that information on there.

To say, and I've even handed out, because our church does these, what they call five packs. They, they ask the, when events and things come up, they ask us to go out and hand out cards and invite people to the church. And I'll do that. I'll hand a, you know, here's some water, here's a granola bar, please come to our church and, and try to invite them in.

So you're absolutely right. We have to get out there and do more than just sit in a pew.

Rick McKinney: Yeah.

Jane McKinney: Yeah.

Rick McKinney: Well, you've hit on one of my favorite topics and not, and not to be critical at all, because I think we need to invite people to church and please don't misunderstand when I say that. And church is such an important ingredient in what God wants to do. This is the vehicle that God has chosen to bring Jesus to the world.

So I'm not anti church at all, but I, I preached this for many years. Inviting people to church is not the same as inviting people to Jesus. If you invite people to church, you're setting them up for disappointment because they're going to, if they come and they stay long enough, they're going to be disappointed.

They're going to find somebody who's doing something they don't agree with or somebody who's going to be critical of them or the pastor is going to have a moral failure or something's going to happen. They're disappointed in. But if you invite people to Jesus, They'll never be disappointed in him. And so sometimes we have substituted inviting people to church for inviting people to Jesus.

Both are important. But my primary concern is getting people to Jesus. It used to be getting people to church because as a pastor, you want people to come to church. Hopefully they hear the message of Jesus and, and receive him and accept him as their savior. But the truth is that the church isn't absolutely, let me say it this way.

The church building is not absolutely necessary in order for that to happen. So part of the way we engage our culture is by engaging them with Jesus, not engaging them with church. And there is a difference. Sometimes it's a subtle difference and depending on how great your church is, . But I think that's always important to keep in mind that our first priority is to get people to Jesus.

Mark Stouffer: I agree with that. And I think that, that's first. And if someone comes to Christ and people do, then it is important at that point to get them into fellowship.

Jane McKinney: Sure. Amen.

Mark Stouffer: Otherwise, they're,

Jane McKinney: babies

Mark Stouffer: they're floundering. Yeah, they could be taken down by the enemy. And,

Jane McKinney: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Mark Stouffer: yeah, crash and burn.

Mark Collins: I agree with that as well. And I like what you said, Rick, I'll tell a quick story. And the point is what you had talked about. I was working at a warehouse at one time. I was between jobs. We had sold a business and I hadn't gotten into a field that I desired yet. Just working and doing the things I was doing, right.

The kind of work you do in a warehouse, pulling products, shipping product, doing whatever I was doing. I was only there for, Two weeks. And then other things happened. I was able to move forward and other things I had in my life. But one day I was there, it was in the afternoon doing something on a table across from somebody else, a young lady.

And, and she looked at me and she said, can I ask you a question? I said, sure. She said, are you a Christian? Interesting thing. I never mentioned God, Jesus. I don't have the Jesus t shirt. I don't wear a cross outside of my shirt. So people know that I'm a Christian, right? I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to put on all of the marketing materials of Christianity. And I told her, yeah. And I said, why, how do you know? And she said, you just, there was something about you. And I'm not telling a story to try and give myself any credit, but in understanding that at the end of the day, we're the message, right? He said, you're salt and you're light. He didn't say that the church building was, or the pastoral leaders were.

I am an associate pastor, so I'm not downgrading the importance of leadership within Christianity. But the truth of the matter is they meet Jesus before they get in the building. If they meet Jesus through you. And, and, and, you know, I've got a book life mastery, living life by design. And the whole purpose of the book is to say there's an impact that you're supposed to have in the world.

It's not a duty. It's an invitation. That's God's giving through your life to live it out. And I think a lot of times we, we don't understand that our message and in relationship will matter more sometimes than what somebody says from a stage. And in that authentic relationship where I'm living out the struggles, the challenges, the victories, the glorious things of God.

Now, all of a sudden I give a true representation that somebody from a stage really can't. And so at the end of the day, it's us, we're the message, get, you know, us outside the doors and our relationships and wherever we are. That's the message that impacts culture. Certainly you can in a hierarchy. And I believe in community.

I believe in being around people because, you know, There's a lot of life that happens on the way to Sunday. And it's always nice to be around like minded individuals with common goals, common beliefs, and a relationship that you can grow together. But at the end of the day, whoever's listening to this, you're the message.

You're, you're the, you're the vehicle that God is using. And of course, community and church and Sunday service and all of those things are part of it, but they don't matter more. Then somebody who can authentically live out their life in front of somebody, right? Like Jesus, like, I'm sorry, Paul said, follow me as I follow Jesus.

Well at that place we need to, you know, invite them into what we're doing and by being around them and implementing it in our own lives first.

Jane McKinney: Yes.

Rick McKinney: Yeah.

Jane McKinney: And

Rick McKinney: Mark, I think that, that's one of the ways that culture has negatively influenced believers in that they have made us afraid to be Jesus, to act like Jesus. to let our faith be known. It doesn't have to be standing on a soapbox and preaching on the corner, but we've become so timid about our faith.

And I think one of the reasons is because of the pressure we feel from culture, to be quiet about our faith. Faith is a personal thing. They'll tell us, if that works for you, that's fine. But, you know, it doesn't work for me. You don't need to try to convince me or convert me. Matter of fact, converting is, Has become almost a dirty word in our society, talking about converting anybody to, to Jesus.

And so we have to be careful that that ingredient of our culture doesn't influence us because, actually it's spontaneous, isn't it? Um, when we know Jesus, um,

Jane McKinney: being,

Rick McKinney: being light and salt should be natural. Shouldn't be necessarily something we have to train to do or, or to study a book to do, knowing Jesus ought to make such an impact on our life that like you, Mark, somebody just walks up to you and says, Hey, there's something different about you.

You're, you seem something just isn't like, In my life or in most people I know, and that's really how we ought to be infiltrating culture is in a very natural way of just being Jesus to our world.

Jason: You know, Rick, you make an interesting, an interesting segue here, because I actually have a note that we have when culture clashes with Christian beliefs, we have two ways to respond. We can stand against ungodly ways or we can conform to it. Right. And I think the latter is the temptation. It's the response to fear.

And 2 Timothy 1:7 tells us, "For God gave a spirit, not a fear, but of power and love and self control." but we, we see so many Christians that, that shrink back from that. And then the, like you said, it's, you know, if you say the word Jesus, it's as bad as cursing. It's like, it should be bleeped out on the news or something.

But that, that got me thinking, what are the dangers of culture to Christians? you know, and what are we seeing in that now?

Mark Stouffer: You know, I, I was thinking, you know, if you, have a close friend and you, you really feel, pressure in your spirit, I need to say a word of correction to them. And this shouldn't be a regular thing, but every now and then, you know, you need to, you, you need to out of love, say something to them. If you shrink back from that, you're not loving them.

And I think it's the same thing with non Christians. And I, I'm no expert, but I kind of envisioned it as, you know, as you're having a dialogue with anybody. That a casual friend or a close friend or a new friend and you know, you're talking about whatever subject sports, whatever health, and they say something and automatically to your mind, you're like, Oh, I, I had to go to the doctor for that too.

And then they, and then, and he gave me this medicine or this treatment and it worked. So you just naturally share that. And sometimes the most natural thing to say is something about something that Jesus did in your life. And so you just need to say that because that's the natural thing to say. And if you shrink back, you're hurting that person that may or may not know Jesus.

You just need to say it. It's your story, big or small. It's your story about an interaction you're having with God. And you just say it. And they may not like it and, and, but they may like it and may help them. And they may not like it, but they may go away. And, uh, maybe the Holy spirit brings that back to their mind and says, you know what, that's an honest person.

And, uh, You got to think about that. I don't know, but, but we need to, you can get in a habit when you say no to sharing the truth, or you can get in a habit where you say yes, and then it becomes easier.

Jane McKinney: Yeah, I

Mark Collins: I love, I love what Mark said there, because it started with the word friend. And, and what I tell people that I work with is that my relationship gives me permission to have hard conversations and going back to culture and engaging in it. Right. If I'm, if I'm as Rick talked about, if I'm on a soapbox on the corner screaming, repent, right. Right. Or you're going to hell, at that home that has almost no impact on anybody. I've just got to be totally honest,

Jane McKinney: You're right.

Mark Collins: in relationship and engaging in the culture and actually walking into things, right. In people with lifestyles and beliefs and ideas that we don't have. And doing the brave thing of actually, seeing that they're a child of God and walking into a relationship with him.

Now, all of a sudden you have. Permission for hard conversations, just like with anybody with a friend, with a family member or with whoever engaging in culture gives you permission to speak truth and life and love, in a way that they can receive it versus proclaiming, you know, on a megaphone, something that puts a wedge between you and culture. I understand truth. I understand righteousness. I understand sin. Absolutely. But if I don't engage in relationship, right, that clanging gong that Paul talked about, that's exactly what it is. So I love how the two of you have tied that together. Yeah.

Rick McKinney: Yeah, and I love what both marks have said. And, I think, of course, I'm a big storyteller. I love to tell stories. I have a doctorate degree in storytelling, truthfully. And so I think story is so important. And one of the things I try to teach my students at the university is the importance of telling your story.

You can't argue people into the kingdom of heaven and they can always debate, you know, your apologetic argument. They can always debate science. They can always debate creation with you. They can always debate whether it was six days or 6 million years or whatever happened to be. Those kinds of things are, there's a place in a time for those discussions, but they're not evangelistic discussions.

When I talk to people, I want to tell them what Jesus has done for me. What Jesus did yesterday, not just 40 years ago or 50 years ago, but what he's doing today, what he did yesterday, what he's done this week, how he's worked in my life, how he's ministered to me because they can't argue with your story.

They can argue with facts. They can argue, with apologetics, but they can't argue with your story. They can't ever tell you that your story isn't true. And so if you're telling the truth about what Jesus has done for you, they have to at least confront. Your story, they have to deal with it. They have to, to deal with Jesus.

And, I think that's, that's such a powerful thing that Mark S has mentioned that, that we tell our story to people. People are just waiting to hear some good news. They hear bad news all the time. And, uh, they're just waiting to hear some good news about Jesus.

e summed up a lot in, Matthew:

I mean, there's some, there've been some really bad Christian movies out there, like poorly done you watch them for the, for the message, not the content. But now you're seeing movies like, you know, the "God is Not Dead" series. You're seeing "Breakthrough", "War Room", "Jesus Revolution," and "The Chosen." That are becoming incredibly popular. So, I mean, am I just crazy? Or do you think we're seeing a cultural shift between not Christian and Christian?

Jane McKinney: I'm not sure the world that we've been talking about is watching is watching those movies, Jason. I mean, they may at encouragement from a friend. And, and those are good. I think those are more encouraging for Christians than they are for non Christians. That's just my opinion. And, and I agree they are better, they are better quality than we have had in the past.

Rick McKinney: I think one exception to that is probably "Jesus Revolution." I think it was, I think there's this, romanticized, idea about hippies and, and, that's the, that's the time period that Jane and I grew up. And so, I know even among our own generation, there's still a lot of sentiment about that. I think "Jesus Revolution" was probably be an exception. I think a lot of lost people saw that movie. Yeah.

Jane McKinney: Yeah.

Rick McKinney: "War Room", maybe to some extent because it had some well known people in it. But, we can't, I think those are important. I think as Jane said, they're probably more influential in Christians than they are in non Christians.

But we have to keep striving. I think your point is we have to keep striving. To confront our culture in a way that is not embarrassing. Bad music. I mean, I mean, Jane and I are both musicians and, and for us, to go to a church service where there's bad music, where there's somebody that gets up and does special music that can't sing is embarrassing. And you know, if I had invited a lost friend to that church service and they happened to be musical and they saw that things were done in a, in a shoddy way or a substandard way or in a, in a horrible way, it's an embarrassment, not just to the church, but indirectly it's an embarrassment to Jesus.

So I think as we make movies as we make music, as we engage in our culture with Christians, the goal has to always be that we do it with excellence, and do it in a way that mirrors who Jesus is accurately, not just, not just religious jargon, not just the expected traditional stuff, but to really show who Jesus is, that may be one of the attractions to "The Chosen."

Whether you like 100 percent of the content or not, I think one of the things that's been attractive to those who are watching "The Chosen" is that it has one, it's well done, but two, I think for the most part, it's done a pretty good job of showing a Jesus of the world that maybe they hadn't ever seen before a very human.

And again, you can debate. The whole thing, um, you know, and that where the balance slice, but I think that has been part of the attraction to that. And I think that's what we have to do when we engage cultures, do it with excellence, do it in a way that doesn't embarrass us or embarrassed the Lord and do it accurately so that the world really knows who Jesus is. I don't, I don't think most of the world knows who Jesus is. Um, not really.

Jane McKinney: Here, here's something y'all may, y'all may not know. If you, if you listen to Sirius, XM radio, Carrie Underwood has a new channel. It's actually, it's new to us anyway. And it's called Carrie Sunday

Rick McKinney: praise maybe, or something like that, but

Jane McKinney: it's on all the time and it's all country artists.

Pretty much. There was one yesterday that wasn't really, it was The Police. I don't know. Anyway, country artists singing Christian songs. And it's fantastic and so people in the country world who like Carrie Underwood may click on that and say, Oh, Carrie Underwood has a new station and hear about Jesus.

Rick McKinney: Yeah, it's, it's done.

Very well. Amazing. Yeah. And she,

Jane McKinney: she has testimonies in between songs and interviews with the artists and it's really amazing.

Jason: Sounds neat. So I do, I do have kind of a funny story about The Chosen, and this is part and parcel to me thinking that it's getting out there because not. Non christian people are outside of the faith or not interested in faith are watching it and talking about it. I think that's great. But one of our small groups, somebody shared that one of their non christian friends was, was watching it and enjoying it and made the comment of, you know, I can't wait to see how it ends.

And we're all like, uh, kind of already

Jane McKinney: I won't spoil it. Yeah. Spoiler alert. That's funny. Yeah.

Mark Stouffer: You know, another arena where we see, a secular arena where we see professions of faith is in sports and, you know, you'll see after college football games, a big group of Christians from both teams get together in the middle of field and pray. And I just love that. And they used to show that on network TV, and they've They

Jane McKinney: do it as much,

Mark Stouffer: out. But, um, but athletes, yeah. And athletes will, give glory to God real quickly to end of Jesus. I love that. So it's one place we see it.

Jane McKinney: that's true.

Rick McKinney: Yeah. Some of the Olympians have done that and it's, it's making its way onto Facebook through Christian people who are posting it, but, the world really tries to Sanitize, the news and coverage of sporting events from Jesus. We were watching a show last night and it was, had a.

A Christian aspect to it. Some archeologists looking for relics and that sort of thing. And there was, it was about the cross and they'd found this piece of wood that they thought might be part of Jesus cross. And they showed a picture of Jesus on the cross for like a second. And Jesus, it just a flash.

And Jane said, they got off of that picture really quickly, because you know, they don't want to leave that on the screen too long because just that picture, just the notion that people start thinking about Jesus on the cross, Jesus dying for their sins is something that the world doesn't want to promote.

And so it's up to us to promote it, to promote it well, and, to be consistent, not only in our message, but in our, in our lifestyle in a way that. You know, we just have to be careful that we practice what we preach. And one of the, I don't want to change the subject too much here, but one of the damning things about the church right now is all these moral failures that are coming to light from pastors of mega churches.

And, uh, and I'm sure it happens in smaller churches too. But, we have to be committed to living out what we're preaching. Otherwise we do more damage than good. And so when we engage the culture, we have to engage the culture in a way that I always tell people, don't put a Jesus bumper sticker on your car and then, you know, flip people off when they cut you off on the road.

Um, that kind of inconsistency is what the world is used to seeing out of many Christians and it's very damaging to the cause of Christ. We're not going to be perfect, but we have to, we have to be better than we are a lot of times.

Jane McKinney: I like what, what Mark see going back to your story about the warehouse.

Because that shows that no matter where we are and what we're doing, we need to be Jesus. We don't have to broadcast it. My job right now is I'm a substitute teacher at our local high school. And I'm telling you that's a mission field. And, I don't have to wear my Christian t shirts. I just have to love those kids and they know, they know there's something different about me.

And. And it's, it's amazing the kind of difference you can make by just loving people.

Rick McKinney: And you would think high school kids wouldn't respond to that, but. She's subbed at several schools now and they all are still friends with her on Facebook. They still tell her that of all time, she's their favorite teacher and they come to her every day with problems and with difficulties and life issues.

Not because she's said, come to me with your problems, but because they know that she loves them and she's going to give them good sound advice based on the principles of God and, uh, you know, that, again, that happens naturally if we're letting our light shine.

Mark Collins: and I think for me, that would be something I'm sorry. Go ahead. Mark.

Mark Stouffer: No, no, you go ahead. You're first.

Mark Collins: I was going to say, I think for me, that would be one thing I would want people to take away is that there is there's an ability for influence. You know, I was thinking about the entertainment and it's interesting how you were talking about, you know, Christian entertainment versus secular, because sometimes we separate ourselves because we have a message that the world isn't going to allow us to give.

But sometimes we do it because it's easier. An interesting thing is Carrie Underwood, a person who is a Christian, but is living within the world of music, not just in the Christian genre. Sometimes I think we separate ourselves out because we believe that that's the only way for the Gospel to get out, but the interesting thing is, as, as we all know here, anybody who's read the Bible very long knows that God implants us in culture.

You know, New Testament within the Romans, the Old Testament, you know, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego or Daniel or whoever, right? We have a multitude of people that were in cultures that were contrary to God and the call of God on their lives, but had an impact that was obvious and impactful beyond what they could have.

Sometimes we play small because we want to be in our own bubble when God wants us to play in a bigger realm. And so that's That's something that, you know, while Christian music, Christian television, Christian movies, are, are of value. I don't actually watch or look at a lot of them because that level of excellence that Rick talked about isn't there.

And, and that's no slam on anyone. Everybody's trying to, proclaim the Gospel as best they can. But there's an impact when somebody walks into. You know, an apple or a Sony television or a universal or a Microsoft or something like that. And like Rick and Jane were talking about, lives it out in a way that's undeniable.

God gives favor and influence. And to me, there's a hope there that within a culture that isn't always open to Christianity, God's impact is way beyond what they could ever stop. If you're willing to be that light and that salt in the world. So, and there's a hope in that, that

Jane McKinney: Yes,

Mark Collins: God is still on the throne and he's still doing what he's always done, which is getting his word out.

And so that people can know Jesus Christ. in anybody's workplace, in anybody's endeavor, in anybody's, you know, area of influence. So I would, I would want people to know that, that there is a culture and it's loud and it's off all the time and it's everywhere and it's 24 hours, but none of that matters. If there's somebody willing to stand up for the Gospel with their life first and with their word second, and in that place, the world absolutely will change.

Rick McKinney: Right.

Mark Stouffer: I just agree completely with what everybody's saying. And I think that as we deal with people and relate, we have to be, humble. and I think the, accusation against us Christians to some degree deserve is being judgmental. And so we have to, you know, and sometimes we need to get drawn into some, be careful of that because, sin is sin and our culture engages in sin.

And sometimes we get drawn into those discussions. And, if we come across as judgmental, then we're, we're turning people away from Jesus.

Jane McKinney: Yeah.

Mark Stouffer: Even though that's not fair, perhaps, but I think, I think it's important to, uh, be honest about things that are wrong, but we need to say, well, but I'm no better. No, I don't do that.

But I have an anger problem. I have. you know, I gossip, I do, you know, all kinds of things and I need a tremendous amount of forgiveness and I'm no better, so, but I think we need to be careful of not getting drawn into the thing where we're being judgmental and we need to be humble.

Jane McKinney: Yeah,

Rick McKinney: we give much more grace to ourselves than we do others. Usually, uh, we, we excuse ourselves for everything. You know, we don't excuse others for anything. And that's, that's part of the problem. Barna did a survey not long ago. Well, I guess it's probably been 15 or 20 years ago now. But, when they ask people about Christianity, about Christians, about church, The number one complaint was they're judgmental, they're prejudiced, they're judgmental and you know, that's, that's a horrible reflection on people who are supposed to be

Jane McKinney: like Jesus

Rick McKinney: representing Jesus.

He didn't tolerate sin. He didn't gloss over sin, but he loved people with mercy and grace who were sinful. And that's what we have to do. I lost a church member one time because, he asked me, what would I do if a gay person came, and wanted to attend our church? And my response was he'd be welcome or she'd be welcome just like anybody else, of course. And he left the church because of that. He, he couldn't, he couldn't understand that mentality. That doesn't mean putting a stamp of approval on people's lifestyle, but it means putting a stamp of approval on their worth as a person. And the fact that Jesus died for him or hers, just like he died for me.

And you're right, Mark, we all have our stuff. We all have our stuff and, we need to be mindful of the fact that. Just because other people don't live up to our expectations. We don't live up to a lot of other people's expectations.

Jane McKinney: And you have to tell Mark. Your prayer that we prayed on the walk.

Rick McKinney: Yeah, I wanted to mention that mark because it's very similar to what you shared when we started our walk across America. One of the things we prayed was Lord help us to see people with the eyes of Jesus and I always tell people don't pray that prayer unless you want your life to be radically changed because all of a sudden you're going to start seeing people differently than you've ever seen them before.

Your heart's going to be broken in ways that it's never been broken before. You're going to have compassion you never had before because when you see people like Jesus sees people, It makes all the difference in the world. And, I love that story you told about helping the homeless people because uh, we've done that ministry as well. And, it is, we have a good friend in Aurora, Colorado, who's involved in homeless ministry every week. And, you have to have the eyes of Jesus.

Jason: Yeah. And, you know, Rick and Jane, you guys have mentioned that before, and, and I, I have more recently started asking for, for God to show me what Jesus saw in other people. And, I mean, it's just been a little bit, but it's, it starts to really contort what you thought you knew about others. And you start to see through a lot of the junk.

And, uh, so I want to thank you for, for sharing that prayer with me, several months ago. And, and it's, it's been a, it's been an interesting journey. It wasn't, you know, every time I talk to you guys, Jane throws another truth bomb at me and I have to go contemplate it for a month or two.

Rick McKinney: Listen, Jason, that's not easy to do. And we talk about it almost flippantly because it's been a part of our life so long. That's not an easy thing to do. And , we fight that battle every day because really our flesh doesn't want to see people the way Jesus sees people. We want to, we want to see people as, Worse than us and flawed and, you know, always all kinds of ways that can justify who we are,

Jane McKinney: like Mark said, their own fault.

They got themselves into that or whatever, you know,

Rick McKinney: and you know, that's a daily battle. It's not something that you, you make one prayer or one decision and it changes for everything for the rest of your life. That's a daily prayer where we come to God and say, God, there are some people out there that. Nothing in me wants to love nothing in me wants to accept, but I want to have the eyes and the heart of Jesus today as I encounter those people.

Jane McKinney: And I just have to remind myself that Jesus loves them. I mean, whether I, you know, he, he died for them, just like he died for me. And that's. That's powerful.

Rick McKinney: I'll share a little real quick thing here. Jason, one of the, one of the little keys that I've found in my life is it's really hard to hate people that you pray for. really hard to not like people that you pray for. And so there've been some people in my life, some folks who have caused some deep hurt in our family, who, It would have been easy to, to go the other way, but I started praying for them.

Sometimes it took months of praying, but eventually my heart changed toward them because you can't consistently pray for people and hate them. God will change your heart as you pray for them. You know, that was the key to Job's restoration. Those four guys who came, who were miserable friends, uh, who were accusers and who put him down and told him he deserved what he got when he prayed for his friends. The last few verses in Job says God restored everything to him twofold. And, so pray for your enemies. Jesus told us to do that too, didn't he? Pray for your

Jason: So this, this has been a fantastic conversation. Kind of want to bring it home and I feel blessed because I have such, such an amazing group here. You know, Rick and Jane have literally wrote the book on, on sharing Jesus. You've got Mark Collins who, who is out there, equipping Christians to, to use their biblical instructions, you know, and I've got Mark Stouffer who's, who's written a lot of the history of it. The, the old Testament to New . I mean, there's just so much good information. It's such a well rounded group here. So I want to thank you all for being a part of this and for doing this. And I think if we want to answer the question, how are we called to engage culture? The best thing to do is ask, how did Jesus engage culture during his ministry?

How did he do it? What did he, you know, how, how did he treat people? How did he treat the heretical leaders? The Pharisees that were not living God's word. Look at all that. And it's not going to be easy, definitely not going to be easy. But we're citizens of heaven where we're here on earth with a mission.

And like I mentioned, 2 Corinthians 5:20 tells us we're ambassadors for Christ. , we have an important work to do here and, thank you all for doing it. And any of the listeners are out there doing it. It's tough.

Jane McKinney: just add, can I, can I add one more thing, Jason? It just came into my head. I don't know if it's from God or if it's just me, but, all the things we've talked about today are for everyone. They're not just for the church leaders. And a lot of times and a lot of people in church think, well, the pastor will take care of that.

I don't have to do that. This is for everyone. Yeah, this is our call. Every Christian. This is their call every day, every day to get out there and and be Jesus. So, I just wanted to add that.

Jason: Absolutely, yeah, either of the Mark's, you got, got any final words before we wrap up?

Mark Collins: For me, I would just add to what Jane said. I think it's absolutely true. And the thing I would tell people on top of that is and you're equipped to do it like, like, like, uh, Rick talked about everybody has a story and the story of how God encountered your life, how he changed you forever and how you're living it out.

And that's an important story that other people need. They are actually need the hope that you have on the inside. You just need to be, bold enough to share it and understand that it's an invitation, not a mandate. You've got it on the inside. live it out and people's lives will be changed because of it.

Mark Stouffer: I would just quickly say, just like Jane is a substitute teacher who's trying her best to follow Jesus and people see Jesus through her love. That's for everybody in the church, not just the pastor's wife.

Jane McKinney: right.

Mark Stouffer: agree. And, and the other, the other thing I want to say, and that goes for people like me who are engineers too, we need to be trying to be our best person.

In the, you know, the consulting world where I was, but, I just want to also say, Thank you, Jason. God bless you for responding to God's call for you to do this. This is great

Jane McKinney: Yes,

Rick McKinney: yeah, awesome. Awesome discussion

Jason: It's been amazing. So definitely want to thank people who are out there listening to this episode. Special thank you to my guests. I've mentioned that multiple times. I'm truly blessed to have met and had the opportunity to get to know each of you. I'm so grateful for the time that you've taken to have this conversation and other conversations, and and as a reminder, I've put the links in the show notes to each of my guests, all of their products, their social media and everything.

Please go there and check them out. Please call to action, go out there, click the show notes, description, whatever it is, click on the links and, and see what they're, what they're offering out there. I can personally vouch for each one of them. They're amazing. Everyone's amazing. If you're enjoying this podcast, please like follow or subscribe to it.

Visit my website at https://myministrymission.com to get more information, contact me, find ways to help support the show. Even if it's just sharing it with your friends, family, or some stranger on the street, I don't care until next time. Remember to read your Bibles. Remember to love each other and may the Lord bless you and keep you.

God bless the listeners and God bless to all of my guests. Thank you guys.

Mark Collins: Thank you, Jason.

Jane McKinney: Thank you. Thank you, Jason.

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