Shownotes
We are joined by career expert Sharon Hamersly to discuss how artificial intelligence (AI) can be a crucial tool in the modern job search, while also emphasizing its limitations and the critical role of human input.
**Crutch Words in AI Writing**
A common issue with AI-generated content: the over-reliance on generic phrases and crutch words such as "consequently" and "furthermore." These phrases can result in writing that appears insincere or overly generic.
**Outdated Free AI Models**
The limitation of free AI models, which rely on data that is typically 2-3 years old. This means that recent information and trends may not be reflected in AI outputs generated on these platforms.
**Prompt Specificity in AI Use**
Sharon Hamersly underscores the importance of specificity in prompts when using AI tools. She illustrates that more detailed prompts lead to better results. For example, instead of requesting generic accomplishments, one should provide specific skills and job levels to receive more relevant outputs.
**Applying Critical Thinking**
AI-generated content can serve as a good starting point for ideas; however, users must apply critical thinking to tailor these ideas to their specific needs.
**Writing Resumes and Personalization**
When it comes to writing resumes, don't pay for mass-produced resumes, which can appear identical to others. Instead, use AI as a starting point while ensuring the final resume accurately reflects the applicant's history.
**LinkedIn Profiles**
Treat LinkedIn as a distinct entity that requires unique, personalized content to genuinely represent the user’s professional brand.
**Authenticity in Interviews**
Personalizing AI-generated content helps avoid gaps in knowledge that could be problematic during an interview.
**AI as a Supplementary Tool**
AI serves as a helpful tool rather than a complete solution in the job search process. AI-generated content should act as a starting point, upon which job seekers must build with their own creativity and critical thinking.
**ATS Compliance and Resume Scams**
Sharon warns against services that claim to make resumes ATS (Applicant Tracking System) compliant and disallow the use of bullet points. Such claims are often scams.
**AI for Job Search Research**
AI can provide more specific and compiled information compared to traditional search engines. For example, asking specific questions about company roles can yield detailed responses.
**Limitations and Evolution of AI**
Sharon discusses the limitations of AI, such as occasionally generating inaccurate information and lacking critical thinking and creativity. She coins the term "MSU" (makes stuff up) to describe these tendencies.
**Plagiarism Detection and AI Training**
Sharon experiments with Microsoft Copilot and Scribbr to see how well AI can detect plagiarism and emphasizes the risk of over-reliance on AI tools that might lack personality and accuracy. Carol also mentions that user input can help train AI, though Sharon clarifies that AI generates independent content rather than directly pulling from existing works.
Key Moments
00:00 AI in job searching: benefits and pitfalls discussed.
04:48 AI began mid-20th century; computers weren't powerful enough.
10:01 Apprehensive about learning and understanding AI technology.
11:00 AI is valuable but requires human oversight.
14:47 AI content often repetitive and easily identifiable.
19:27 AI assists by generating helpful, specific ideas.
20:28 Using AI programs for writing inspiration.
26:33 Employers use AI in recruiting; understanding ATS helps.
27:13 ATS helps recruiters manage and rank applications.
30:19 Unscanned text box in applications omits key information.
37:37 Perplexity AI offers detailed, valuable job search information.
41:41 Ensure employment history accuracy; use text snippets.
45:59 Introduction to AI basics and job search implications.
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Recorded in Studio C at 511 Studios. A production of Circle270Media Podcast Consultants.
Copyright 2024 Carol Ventresca and Brett Johnson
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/
Transcripts
We are Looking Forward Our Way from Studio C in the 511 studios. That's in the Brewery District, just south of downtown Columbus, Ohio. This is Brett. How many of you have heard the term AI and just shaking your head in disbelief? How can we let those computers and their artificial intelligence take over the world, it seems like? Well, today, we're going to, get into artificial intelligence and hopefully see the value it can bring to our lives, especially when it comes to job searching. Our career expert, Sharon Hamersley, is sharing her knowledge of AI, both its benefits and its pitfalls, everything has its ying and yang. Sharon's known as the LinkedIn coach and the resume coach and is always making sure we're on target with advice to those in a job search situation. Sharon, thanks so much, for joining us today.
Sharon Hamersly [:Hello, Brett and Carol. Thanks so much for having me. I always love being here.
Brett Johnson [:Oh, good. We're glad glad of that. Thank you. Yeah.
Carol Ventresca [:We are. We're really glad that you were willing to talk about this topic because it's really kinda crazy. So it Why?
Sharon Hamersly [:It's good to see you.
Carol Ventresca [:It's good to see you. Yeah. So, you know, we're gonna, our for our audience, Sharon is always here giving us great advice on job seeking. She she's a good strong guide to what people need to know in terms of job seeking. We've done this for many, many years and you work with clients literally 18 to 80. So you've got that wide background. This whole AI thing is something new for all of us. So we're going to talk about that, but first, let's talk about you.
Carol Ventresca [:Tell us a little bit about your background.
Sharon Hamersly [:Okay. So number one thing I have to say, especially today for this podcast, is I consider myself at best an advanced beginner with AI. So this is what I know right now. I'm learning. Hopefully, we'll all learn over time. So that's that's basically what I wanna say.
Carol Ventresca [:And this will be fun for us to update it in the future. Yeah. We can do more stuff.
Sharon Hamersly [:We can do more stuff Very cool. As we discover stuff. So, anyway, I started my career at Ohio State as an academic adviser. Spent about 20 years there, kind of interacted with Carol on occasion. Yes. O h. I know. Yes.
Carol Ventresca [:Yes. And and Brett is just shaking his head. Poor Brett.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, anyway, part of my job was to work with our career services office in arts and sciences and help students figure out what they wanted to do next. So that's basically the foundation of what I what I am doing now is goes all the way back to that. Then I spent about 10 years in the private sector in various roles. And, eventually, I figured out that having a job is great, but making your own job is better. So I started my career coaching practice back in 2010.
Sharon Hamersly [:And my goal is really and this has always been my goal, is to support clients seeking new jobs or change of scenery in the topsy-turvy world of 21st century job search. Many years ago, I you started using the tagline tools for your 21st century job search. Well, folks, you know, we're almost a quarter century in to the 21st century, and people are still struggling with the concept of what a 21st century job search looks like. Exactly. Now we have another little wrinkle in all of this called AI. So, so, basically, I you know, my goal is to provide the tools and the resources, resumes, cover letters, job search strategy strategy coaching, interview coaching, LinkedIn profile development, all of that. So that that's where where I sit in the world of career coaching and career development.
Carol Ventresca [:Well and I think too what's interesting, and and this happens often in when with new technology starts, is we think it's, oh my gosh. It's really what am I how am I gonna learn this? When in actuality, we've been using AI for a long time. It's all of a sudden now hit the front page of the newspaper, and that's why everybody is up in arms. But we've been doing this. So this is gonna be a fun conversation to kind of work our way through some of the Yeah. Minutiae of it. Yeah. Cool.
Carol Ventresca [:Very cool.
Brett Johnson [:So let's start by, defining what AI is and and what it's not. And then, there's some, programs around AI as well too. So it's, you know, kind of AI exists, but then it has to have an interface with us
Sharon Hamersly [:Yes.
Brett Johnson [:To be able to utilize
Sharon Hamersly [:it Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:The best way we can. Yeah.
Sharon Hamersly [:Okay. So here's the thing that people probably don't realize. AI actually started mid 20th century when we've got the first computers, you know, those big huge boxes. And so, people started thinking about, well, how could we use this to automate tasks and do things like that? You know, you have a new tool, so you wanna find ways to use it. So most during most of 20th century, the main limitation was that our computers simply were not powerful enough to, actually execute the type of programs and commands that would be needed to generate you know, to automate tasks. So, that that was a big challenge. In the early 2000, people start you know, computers got a lot better and a lot more powerful, so people started to be able to work with it more and more. And I'm sure everybody remembers Watson on Jeopardy.
Sharon Hamersly [:Mhmm. You know how long ago that was? That was 2011. Watson
Carol Ventresca [:Watson? And Watson had been around even then.
Sharon Hamersly [:Oh, yeah. He'd been around then. So so, you you know, in one sense, when we say AI and we think this is some brand new shiny object, well, no. It's not actually a brand new shiny object. So, so and, you know, now you encounter AI, in in your daily life, you know, the ubiquitous chatbots that are either very helpful or extremely annoying.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Sharon Hamersly [:So so yeah. The the, you know, the chatbots, you know, that that's just part of our life nowadays. And Wendy's has announced that they're using AI to take orders at some of their places. I don't know how that's going because I don't usually go to Wendy's, but you know? So, anyway, so when people talk about AI, nowadays for for for the masses, for for us folks, they're usually talking about 2 programs. 1 is called CHAT GPT, and I forgot to look up that is an acronym, and I forgot to look up what it actually
Carol Ventresca [:We'll we'll put it in the resources.
Brett Johnson [:Okay.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah. Yeah. And then the other one is attached to the Edge browser. That's Microsoft Copilot. So those are 2 that are pretty res readily accessible. The, Chat GPT has a free and a paid subscription. And like I said, Microsoft co Copilot, that's just part of the Edge browser. You can use that using Edge.
Sharon Hamersly [:And there there are lots of other AI programs, and I'm gonna mention a few later on that might be helpful in job search. And we'll put those in the resources too. But, anyway, they're free and paid, and they can be useful. So and the last thing I wanna say about AI is that it's very powerful, but it's never a substitute for creativity and critical thinking. That's the thing. People people seem to think or have this idea that somehow AI is gonna give them the answers that they need without actually thinking about it. And that that's just absolutely not the case. That you you have to be very careful about that.
Sharon Hamersly [:Depending on the subject, this information could be, you know, inaccurate, just dead wrong. There's an acronym, MSU, for for, AI programs. MSU stands for makes stuff up. So so that that you know, you have to recognize that the limitation, of any AI program is it's not able to think critically and be that creative.
Carol Ventresca [:So It's just popping stuff out at you after it has learned. And I'm using that term quote unquote learned. Collected all the stuff, all the bits and pieces, and it throws them together. Yeah. But again, I think when people are so upset or concerned about AI is going to take over the world, AI has been around for 20 years. Yep. We, we just haven't called it that. Yeah.
Carol Ventresca [:Google searching is AI. Yep. How many years have we been doing Google searching? Yeah. The same kind of thing. Yep. AI is a little bit more advanced, but it's not, you know, there isn't some what was the name of that guy on the computer on in that movie.
Brett Johnson [:I don't know.
Sharon Hamersly [:Oh, the 2001? Yes.
Brett Johnson [:Oh. Oh, gotcha. Right. Right. Space Odyssey? Okay.
Carol Ventresca [:Yes. The 2001 Space Odyssey movie.
Sharon Hamersly [:Hal. Hal the computer. Yeah.
Carol Ventresca [:Hal the computer. HAL is not coming down to find us. Yeah. This is a tool. Yep. So we're gonna talk a little bit more about that. Right. Right.
Carol Ventresca [:Okay. So, when I hear the term AI, you know, I'm I'm queasy. As I said, everybody's a little concerned, and I'm queasy. I'm queasy more, not not for fear of it, but queasy of, oh my gosh, how hard is this going to be to learn? But there are dozens of computer programs I've learned in the past so I, you know, I have to get kind of over that queasiness. The this is mysterious, I think, and and I don't know if it really is or it makes the news makes it sound that way. We just have to kind of cut through the noise of media. Yeah. As I said, we're always using Google search, Google Maps.
Carol Ventresca [:I know that, you know, you got to be careful or they're gonna send you to the wrong place. If in all of that with my Alexa, all of the stuff that we've got going on, where where's the value in this, Sharon? Why can why should we just ignore it? Is it gonna go away, or is there really value that it's bringing to us?
Sharon Hamersly [:I'm I'm absolutely sure that AI is not going away, number 1. So, as we've always mentioned a couple of times, AI is a tool. It's very helpful and and can, I think, do a better job than something like Google in gathering and summarizing information quickly? And it's also pretty good at generating some basic ideas and cons concepts for content that you can then use and customize. So, and I really think that that in some ways, as I've started to use AI, it is more helpful to me than Google, and, I'll explain a little bit more about that later. Okay. But that's exactly the point too. A AI is not creative, and it's not critical. You're you know, you have to have your analysis and your thought processes.
Sharon Hamersly [:You have to apply that to what the AI program generates.
Brett Johnson [:So Right. So, my wife teaches at, Wright State University and and I know she's, we're gonna talk about plagiarism here. But, yeah, there's been, you know, software programs that will at least, you know, search through papers and kind of go, okay, now, you took that idea from here. You took that idea from here and stuff. But but, this has now gone a 1000 miles an hour in in totally different directions and stuff. So can we talk about ways of teachers or employers or any other administrator that can determine if you've plagiarized AI?
Sharon Hamersly [:Yep. Okay. So I decided to do a little thought experiment here, and I went to Microsoft Copilot. And I asked Microsoft Copilot, how can you prevent how can you identify plagiarized material? You know?
Brett Johnson [:And How can you rat on yourself?
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah. How can you rat Co pilot. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Okay. Yeah. So here's what I got back from from Copilot, and it's actually not too bad.
Sharon Hamersly [:It first of all, it talked about some AI detectors. They're actually AI programs. There's one called Scribbr. It says confidently identifies text generated by popular popular AI models. So it there is actually another AI program that can this is this is pretty interesting.
Carol Ventresca [:Hal telling on Hal.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah. Pretty much, isn't it? Yeah. So but then also, and I think this this gets to the to the central point of this whole issue. AI ish features. Okay. So there are you know, as as you look at you know, a reader can look at content and for signs of AI generated writing. Number 1, incorrect or outdated information. You know? So we we've talked about the MSU make stuff up phenomenon.
Sharon Hamersly [:You know? If, you if you're reading something and it doesn't sound right, there there's probably an AI component in there somewhere. Also, lack of depth or personality. You know? AI just kind of throws stuff out there. It doesn't have a personality per se. So if if you if you're reading a student's essay and you kind of know, you know, generally what they say, how they say it, that type of thing, this doesn't look like it, well, chances are. Yeah. Yep. Right.
Sharon Hamersly [:And then also repetitive language, and I've seen this myself when I've, you know, used AI for various tasks that I wanna try to, you know, get some help with. You know? It it generates repetitive words and phrases. It says the same thing over 2 paragraphs down. You know? So so if so all of those things yeah. It takes here's the here's the irony of this. You can you can sort of get a sense on one level by using another AI program that something is AI generated, but your eyes and your mind are probably going to be pretty good if you know what you're looking for to see if there's AI generated content in something. Yeah.
Carol Ventresca [:Is it true that, if you have written something, a document, an article, or whatever, and you have you put it into AI to have that check it or whatever. It are you giving your material to AI?
Sharon Hamersly [:Yep. You're training the model.
Carol Ventresca [:So that yeah. So that's the other thing that what it's spitting out to you is somebody else's work. Yeah.
Sharon Hamersly [:It could be. It could be. Could be. Although, from what I've seen, you know, just putting in things, and I'll give an example here in just a second. It does I don't think it pulled something from somebody else necessarily. I think it has enough intelligence or whatever we wanna call that to to be a somewhat independent content generator. Yeah. It's looking at other stuff.
Sharon Hamersly [:I'm sure. But
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. You got you got me thinking too because I'll I've got I use AI in the podcast world, but that's based on the transcript itself. So what we'll do is we'll you know, from this episode, kind of Inside Baseball, take this episode, run it through AI, but it's the transcript Yeah. Of this. So, it's generating content Yeah. Specifically from the transcript.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:We're talking about though general fishing going in the ocean and and picking stuff and I got to thinking that it's still AI spits out these phrases. AI speak, like Yeah. Delves into. Oh, it loves delves. Loves the word delves. But I I had to look up while you're talking to is like and it came up on LinkedIn about overused AI speak.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:And a lot of it words crutch words like consequently, furthermore, in addition to, loves those phrases. Yeah. Very extremely significantly in today's world in conclusion. So but I I bring this up because if it spits out something like that for you, get rid of
Sharon Hamersly [:it. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Because those a scribber is going to see that kind of going, nah. Not That's a phrase. That's a phrase AI likes. AI speak.
Carol Ventresca [:Yeah. And and too, Brett and I were looking at some stuff online before Sharon got to the studio to start the podcast and chat gpt GPT's free version is 2, almost 3 years old.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah. Exactly.
Carol Ventresca [:So you can use the free stuff but it's gonna be you know, for those of you who are going into high school and and you're letting the chat write your papers, they're gonna be 2 years old.
Brett Johnson [:If it if it happened in 2023, it doesn't know about it.
Sharon Hamersly [:It doesn't know about it. Yes. Exactly.
Carol Ventresca [:So so yeah. That's it's like it's like using cliff notes here. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah. And you better figure out what's happened in the meantime too. Right.
Carol Ventresca [:Right. Right. One of the things that I always, struggle with even in Google is how to phrase my question. How do how do I what phrase do I use to get the answer I want? And as I mentioned, Google Maps, you know, if you're not careful on Google Maps, it's going to send you to Columbus, Georgia instead of Columbus, Ohio. So you have to really see what it is you're putting in. Are there tips on writing the most useful and I think they call them prompts.
Brett Johnson [:Yep.
Carol Ventresca [:In order to get the most useful answers in an AI program?
Sharon Hamersly [:Yes. Basically, your your foundation is you're beginning with the end in mind. That's really what you need to do. What is it that you want, the AI chat gpt copilot to, do? And the more specific, the better. Let me give just give you an example of that. So, in the job search world. So, I could I could tell chat gpt, provide 3 accomplishment statements for an accountant position. Okay.
Sharon Hamersly [:Chatt GPT will spit something back at me, for sure. But it's going to be very generic, and it may really not be very helpful to what I'm actually looking to do, you know, to present as my particular qualifications for an accountant position. If you were to, put in chat gpt many more specifics, Provide 3 accomplishment statements based on the following skills required for an entry level accounting position. You'd get something that was much you you'd get something that was much closer that you you'd actually have some content that you could work with and and then adjust it to your particular situation. You'd get some ideas. You know? That's that's the good thing about, AI. It's a great idea generator. You know? It it can really help you.
Sharon Hamersly [:If I'm stuck staring at a blank screen, you know, I've I've started actually just going to chat gpt or or Copilot or another program that I'll mention here in a little bit. But and just saying, okay. So I need help identifying, and then I put it in as much content as I can or, you know, as much of what I'm looking for as possible, and it will it will give me some stuff back. I'm like, oh, okay. Now I know where to go next. You know? So so I'm probably not even going to use that content in what I'm actually writing, but it like, it's like, oh, wait. Yeah. I need to go this direction.
Carol Ventresca [:You know? That's why like you're educating yourself along with
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah. I'm The AI. Along with the AI. So and another point is that you can you can and actually should use multiple prompts around the same question. So don't don't just say provide 3 accomplishment statements. Okay. You can also use a prompt like, what are, you know, what are 3 accomplishment statements for a, entry level accountant position, you know, use you using these skills. So kind of rephrase it a little bit, and you'll get slightly different content.
Sharon Hamersly [:And the more content that that's the handy thing about this. The more content you have, the more you have to work with to then take it, apply your thought processes, your critical thinking, your creativity to the the content that the AI has provided for you. So that that's really what you're trying to do. You know, always think about what is it that I really need to get out of this and then be very specific when you use your prop in generating your props.
Carol Ventresca [:And it's like it it in the whole job search, that is a path we tell folks. Make some decisions. Have have an idea of where you're going, where you want to be. So before you're even starting to, you know, collect all of these bits and pieces Yeah. You really have to have an a good idea. As you said, begin with the end in mind. Yeah. So you have to have made some decisions before you get to that.
Carol Ventresca [:Yeah. Does a does a prompt have a limitation on size? I mean, at what point in time does it get to be too long?
Sharon Hamersly [:You know, I haven't actually tested that one out. Okay. Well, we
Carol Ventresca [:can do that. There. I mean, we you can ask more and more prompts.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah. You could. Yeah. I would say just just from my very basic knowledge of how this all works is give it a prompt. If you don't like what it says, give it you know, revise that prompt. They know opposed to making it longer. Yeah. As opposed to
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. I've been to a couple presentations that they the prompts are even like you're quote unquote talking to AI. Yeah.
Sharon Hamersly [:That it
Brett Johnson [:gives you the answer of what you know, that first prompt. Yeah. And say you you literally I guess it comes under the the the person wants to personify AI. Yeah. Gets them in the mindset they're asking that unpaid intern to do their work. And they're saying, no. No. Thanks.
Brett Johnson [:That's not the answer I was looking for. Now, this is but let's refine that. You're almost having a conversation with which I think is freaky in itself.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:And that I haven't got to that prompt mindset yet because that that's we were talking about this before, we started recording. These prompts are the heart seems to be the hard for me, the hardest piece of it is is really getting into your own head because you do it automatically. Yeah. So it's that now I'm telling writing something in here to to to encapsulate something, I guess, I can kinda do on my own, but I wanna utilize the power Yeah. That's out there for ideas like you said. Yeah. It's just so difficult. But, yeah, I've heard that.
Brett Johnson [:I think to your point of that long prompt, I've I've seen people write this, this, and then comment. This, this, and then comment. It gets it.
Carol Ventresca [:Oh, really?
Brett Johnson [:You know? So I guess there I'm assuming there's no it it knows what you want to do other than maybe like you said too, it's that short change, short change, short change kind of feel to it. Yeah.
Sharon Hamersly [:To to
Brett Johnson [:to find refinement.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah. Right. And actually, I have a completely not job search related example of this where I've been using AI just for fun, basically. There's a program out there on one of the game sites. It's called Word Hunt, and it gives you 6 or 7 letters. And I'll you know, usually, I can figure it out myself. At the occasion, I'm like, You know? So I'll just open chat GPT, say, give me give me, 10 words that use these letters. And it it and then, and then what I find is that sometimes it's really accurate, and I can actually use that in my game.
Sharon Hamersly [:And sometimes it's like, wow. Are you off? You get to make stuff up or and it'll use letters that I didn't give it. So so is
Carol Ventresca [:it gonna help me on Wordle every morning?
Sharon Hamersly [:You never know. You might try.
Carol Ventresca [:Try it.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. You know it's gonna be scary as if so one day, you're gonna ask about Wordle, and it's gonna say, oh, Carol, you're playing Wordle this morning along with 50,000 other people. I'm not gonna tell you the answer.
Sharon Hamersly [:That sounds like how. That sounds like how.
Carol Ventresca [:It does. It does. And you know
Sharon Hamersly [:what's so funny? They just
Carol Ventresca [:I do, I do Wordle on the New York Times sub on my New York Times, subscription. They now have a, like, a chat box that is a helper. Oh. Yeah. So it's not where you're asking questions, but it'll give you some information
Brett Johnson [:Prompts and at
Sharon Hamersly [:the
Carol Ventresca [:very end. Clues. Well, yeah. Clues. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:At the
Carol Ventresca [:very end, it'll actually give you the word. But I'm like, I don't you know, I kinda like guessing at this.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah. Right.
Carol Ventresca [:But I also have a system. So Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Exactly. Getting back to what we are supposed to be talking about. I still think it's fun though. Yeah.
Carol Ventresca [:Exactly. This is
Brett Johnson [:getting Oh, yeah. It's a
Carol Ventresca [:lot more fun than I thought it was
Sharon Hamersly [:gonna be. Yeah. Right.
Brett Johnson [:If you've gone through the job search process, you and you've listened to some episodes we've had Sharon on, we talked about ATS, applicant tracking systems. And so, employers have been using AI programming in their recruiting efforts for years using ATSs. ATSs have been the first line of resume reviews since AI became available. What else are employers doing with AI programming? And how can a job seeker a teacher a job seeker, excuse me, quote unquote beat those AI guardrails or at least to understand, okay, this is when I put something together, it's gonna be in this program. Yeah. And this is how I have to put things together for it to at least even recognize it.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yep. So, the first thing I'd like to say is that, applicant tracking systems, and this this is something I think people don't really understand really that well is, they're they're a tracking system that helps recruiters keep track of who's applied, what their status is. It's kind of a database or a virtual filing cabinet that they have. So you need to understand that that that's a large part of what ATS actually is. And then there are, and it's there's so many ATS different ATS systems that it you know, trying to beat them is you know, you can do that, because, it it can be hard. Many ATS systems do have add ons then that rank and filter, beyond the minimum qualifications. But the one thing that I saw as I've been kind of investigating this, when you asked this question, I'm like, oh, I need to go out, and there was a really good article on LinkedIn the other day about that from somebody who'd been a recruiter. You're, beyond making sure that you meet the the minimum qualifications that your your, resume has the wording that would be expected from somebody meeting those qualifications.
Sharon Hamersly [:You know? The best thing, and I think this is probably a really good point, is you want to be an early applicant. If you see a job that's posted, you know, you wanna hop right on that because, the the, you know, the the recruiter that whose article I was reading said, you know, his ATS system, first thing it does, it just puts the the all of the applications in the order received.
Brett Johnson [:So the So there's an algorithm to the first one to respond.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah. There's a No kidding. Yeah. So that's something that I don't think people are really aware of, and I think that's probably true from what he said of of most systems. Now as they become, more sophisticated, there are some also some formatting issues that you need to be aware of. You wanna be careful. You don't wanna put any information in the header or footer. Apparently, ATS systems just they still don't scan that.
Sharon Hamersly [:They're pretty they're pretty sophisticated, but they don't scan that. And they don't scan text boxes. So you wanna make sure that, if you're using text boxes, that's great. You know, that can that can improve the appearance for the human reader. You know? And you wanna maybe have some of those little pops and and pointers for for a reader. But if if the information is in a text box, it also needs to be in the body of the resume.
Carol Ventresca [:So let yeah. That I that's where I thought you were going with this. Yeah. So to to clarify, it's not that you can't put things in the text box. It's that if it's not scanned, then you could end up with an application that's missing huge important pieces of information about you and your skills and your experiences that they're because it's not scanned, it's not being evaluated. So that that's what the state of Ohio and I don't know if they still do this or not. State of Ohio did, had a box at the very end of their application system. And I as I said, this is going back years that the recruiters had to convince my students that they would get to that end box.
Carol Ventresca [:And because it was at the end of a very long application, they'd say see attached resume and not put anything in that box. But the recruiters who were reading these applications looked at the box first. And if you didn't show all of your skills and experiences that met everything Yeah. In the application, they didn't look at the rest of the application. Yep. So you had to put everything in that box. Now, for whatever reason, that was their their tool at the time. As I said, I don't know if they still do it.
Carol Ventresca [:But it's but you have to be really careful in what you're putting where in these systems because, the applicant tracking system is not going to make the it it's not making decisions based on what you think it should make decisions. It's making decisions based on whatever the computer programming is telling it to do.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's true. So, 2 other points. Number 1, and I've seen this more than I'd like to. You, because some of my clients have gotten this. Somebody picks up their resume off LinkedIn and and then messages them and said, hey.
Sharon Hamersly [:Your resume isn't ATS compliant. Let me fix it for you for, you know, for money. A lot of dollars. Yeah. For a lot of dollars. Now it it's very hard. I mean, we've gone through all of the complexities now of how an ATS system works or many of the complexities and, how to, you know, how to format your resume and other information. You know, when you're when you're in an ATS system, it's asking you for other information too.
Sharon Hamersly [:You know? Usually, you know, you're filling out something, then you're uploading your resume, you know, all of this. So, anyway, so what I found is when I when these people, send me what this this person is saying, they're saying things like, you can't use bullet points in an ATS compliant resume. I'm like, really? That that is an obvious sign of an outright scam. That that's a scam. So, you know, while we're while we're talking AI, you know, we the you know, anything that that's out there, you can use the scam folks with, unfortunately. So okay. So, yeah, you wanna be very careful of that. You know? And if somebody's offering to make your resume ATS compliant, just tell them no.
Sharon Hamersly [:Thanks. That that's my point. And then my final point is, what not to do. There's an urban myth, and this pops up, I swear. You know, twice a year, 3 times a year, somebody says, oh, you should put all the keywords and white font around the edges. I'm like, no. Yeah. While it's possible that the ATS would pick that up, the recruiter can tell that you've been kind of messing around because something will look a little funky when they actually pull the resume up on the screen, or they can see the white font.
Sharon Hamersly [:Exactly.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Carol Ventresca [:So and to see it and and then and if they can't see it and your resume is approved and they can't find those keywords in your actual resume, then, like, how did it get through the system? Yeah. It's not gonna keep you in in the the the loop. It's gonna they're gonna take you out.
Brett Johnson [:You know, my mind went back to your comment about the algorithm of the first first one in wins kinda feel
Carol Ventresca [:to it.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah. Right.
Brett Johnson [:And I wonder give me your thoughts on this. That that goes back to something you mentioned couple of episodes ago that we recorded with you maybe. That it's that, if you have an interest in a specific company you wanna work with, you're gonna follow them. You're going to interact with them. Yeah. And if you are, then you have a greater interest and you're gonna see that job opening pop up probably more quickly.
Sharon Hamersly [:Oh, yeah.
Brett Johnson [:So That that maybe that's where it leans into the if you applied early Early. Yeah. Meaning you probably followed, you interacting, you see it post up. That in my mind, that made sense because I'm like, why why would that it's like but you mentioned that Yeah. A few episodes ago.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah. Right. Yeah. It really does demonstrate your interest.
Brett Johnson [:Job searching includes an enormous amount of research in order to correctly target the job postings and successfully gain that employment, that that job you want. How can AI support those efforts, whether it's in learning more about specific jobs or even the employers?
Sharon Hamersly [:Well, the big, from my perspective and as I've been using this, the big advantage of using AI for research is that the information you need is more specific, and it's compiled for you. You know, you you type in, you know, something in Google, and you get, you know, this huge little thing. If you type a similar question into, AI, you're likely to get a more compact list and, you know, set of information As opposed to paid commercials. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, but, you have to sort through a lot of links when you use Google or even LinkedIn. So, a specific example, you know, I I, asked Copilot.
Sharon Hamersly [:I just said, okay. Who's the chief human resources officer, Nationwide Insurance? And you have to ask this at Copilot, incidentally, for a free thing be because of what we mentioned before about chat gpt being 2 years behind or
Carol Ventresca [:Mhmm.
Sharon Hamersly [:However. Copilot is actually up to date, and I verified this. So I asked Copilot, who's the chief human resources, officer at Nationwide Insurance? And it says, Venita Clements cur currently serves. And, you know, I'm our chief human resource officer. And, you know, there's more detail about, her with with links to other sources. You might be able to find this on LinkedIn or in Google, but this puts it in one place with some links to do research and kind of get right on top of what you need to know and see, you know, what it connect. Then you can go back to LinkedIn, look at her LinkedIn profile, and do other things like that. So there is another system that I recommend for this, and this is a pay for system, but I think it's actually does a good job.
Sharon Hamersly [:The it's called per perplexity p like, perplex you know, you've perplexed. This is called perplexity dot a I. So when I went there, I found more detailed information, and it mentions some previous positions that she held, which Copilot did not. It just talked about her current position and gave some links. And and perplexity, this is I was using the free version just to try it out, but I think you get even more detail when you use the paid version. And the free version is linked limited to, like, a certain number of searches per month. So, if you're heavy into job search and looking for resources and you have your customer company list and you need to know who are specific people in that company, I would say that it is actually worthwhile to pay for something like perplexity, and I'm not getting paid by perplexity, obviously. It's just that as I've used this a couple of times, just the free version, I've been saying, okay.
Sharon Hamersly [:If you get the paid version and you're doing a lot of research, you know, you don't have to pay for it for more than a couple of months probably. But, you know, I think that that's really good because I asked the exact same question, and it gave me a lot more detail about previous positions, college university attended. I think it was probably pulling stuff out of LinkedIn, But, you know, I had the name, and I had a whole bunch of information right there. Then I could go back to LinkedIn, or I could look to see if if this person is on other social media that might be useful,
Brett Johnson [:you know, those types of things. So I think that's
Carol Ventresca [:Does perplexity have, or do they specialize
Sharon Hamersly [:in something, or is it or or do AI programs basically talk about anything? Well, perplexity is, is it says it's a business program, whatever that means.
Carol Ventresca [:Like LinkedIn compared to Facebook.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah. Right. So that's what perplexity does. So yeah. So, generally speaking, going back, you know, CAT gbt is not up to date. Perplexity, I'm guessing, especially if you're paid for it, it better be up to date. You know? Copilot may be up to date, but you have to double check.
Carol Ventresca [:So so we've we always talk about how important the researching part of the job search is. But it is also incredibly critical to have wonderful job search materials, resumes, cover letters, introductory ideas, the networking, elevator speeches, all of those kinds of things. AI can pop all that stuff out for you, you know, without with very little effort. That's not necessarily a good idea. So let's talk about resumes, cover letters, talk about the advantages in using an AI program,
Sharon Hamersly [:what are the pitfalls, and, what should we never do with AI? Okay. So, it's a useful idea generating writing tool For okay. Here's an example. You can give a prompt saying, write resume achievements with metrics based on this job description. So you've got a job description. You've, you put it in there. And, you know, Chatt GPT Copilot, they'll split spit out a basic list that you can then use to achieve. And I'm gonna say right up front, this list will definitely include some MSU items, make stuff up items because they they, the the the program is generalizing based on the information that you've gave given them.
Sharon Hamersly [:So
Carol Ventresca [:And and if another person asks the same question, they're gonna get the same things. Yes. So just like when you pay somebody to write your resume and you don't do anything on it, but they're writing a 1,000 resumes a month Yeah. Chances are pretty good your resume is gonna look exactly like somebody else's.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah. Right. It it good. So you wanna be, so you wanna be very careful that your actual document reflects, you you know, your actual the the facts of your employment history, and it's not it's not doing the make stuff up. That's why, you know, you're gonna start somewhere. I mean, you know, we've all sat and stared at a blank screen. You know? And and, you know, that's so you know, you don't even have to I don't recommend, actually, and the way I've been using it is I've just been using it. I call them snippets.
Sharon Hamersly [:I say, okay. I'm kinda stuck, you know. Here here's part of the, here's here's part of the job posting I'm going. I know my client has this. I'm just gonna put this in there and ask Chattop GT to write a basic statement for me. And then I'm like, oh, wait. Okay. So now I see and I'll go back in because, you know, my my clients all have to fill out a questionnaire first anyway.
Sharon Hamersly [:So I'm gonna go back and look at the questionnaire and see, you know, what I need to pull out of there to, again, make that your, you know, your experience and and not chat GPTs or somebody else's. So You know, I
Carol Ventresca [:I used to have a ton of different resume writing books. It has a stack of them, and it's not I didn't I didn't plagiarize them, but just looking at different ways people do things in the way different ways they say things Yeah. Get your brain moving in terms of how what what can you say about yourself?
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah. Exactly. And I think I think that's a really good thing to have. And, you know, the same thing is true of your color cover letter. You can pull from, you know, the job description, your your resume, not the one that GPT gave you, but your actual resume, and then ask them to ask the AI to write a a cover letter for you. Now when I've done that, I I found out very early that it's very eager to help, and it writes you this huge long missive. So it But but
Carol Ventresca [:and you only needed a snippet.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah. And I only needed a snippet. There you go. So so, again, that's a caution. You know? So, bottom line for resumes, cover letters, LinkedIn profile for that matter. You know, if you're writing your about statement or you wanna get a good headline in LinkedIn, you know, that type of thing or even some snippets that you can put underneath, you know, your individual experiences. Because you don't wanna copy paste just from your resume into LinkedIn. You wanna make LinkedIn its own thing.
Sharon Hamersly [:But, AI provides some good starting points, but you're still responsible for creating documents that are accurate, and they reflect reflect your brand. Okay. Everybody I know everybody hates that brand thing, but there is it it really is an important part because you're speaking in your authentic voice and, you know, now which doesn't sound like anybody else and certainly shouldn't sound like chat gpg.
Carol Ventresca [:So And and it still goes back to that notion of when you get to an interview Yeah. And somebody looks at your resume and says, tell me what you mean by that statement. If you didn't write the statement Yep. You're not gonna have an answer for them. Yeah. And that's not gonna do you any good in your interview.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah. Right. And then they're gonna discover that you were using AI to Yes. To do your resume. Yeah. Yeah. You have you really do have to be be yourself, you know, and know where, you know, you've you've got some ideas. Now let's make this me.
Carol Ventresca [:So, Sharon, you know, as I tell you every time, this goes really quickly. And, audience, we're gonna put together resources for you that you'll be able to find on our website, and I and contact information for Sharon. Yep. So that if you have questions or you're in your job search and you need help or you know somebody who does need help, she is an incredible resource and works with people all over the country. Yeah. You know, based in central Ohio, but but she works with folks all over.
Sharon Hamersly [:Yeah. I'm I'm I'm a virtual person. I'm I'm happy to hop on Zoom, have a phone call with you, whatever. Right.
Carol Ventresca [:Yeah. And I think, too, our beginning message was this is basics on AI. We're we're not, none of us are nobody's an expert right now because it changes so fast every day. But it's a place to start and I think, too, what we were hoping to do is to ease you into it so that you don't see that trepidation that's on my face every time I think about it. Yeah. So, Sharon, last words of wisdom on AI. The goods, the bads, the pitfalls of using AI in your job search.
Sharon Hamersly [:Okay. One more time here. AI is a tool. It's not a panacea. Content that it generates can be helpful when used as a starting point, and that's what it is. It's a starting point for your critical thinking and your creativity. You are the person who's responsible for presenting your candidacy in a positive and an accurate light. So that that's that's that's the bottom line.
Sharon Hamersly [:As far as I'm concerned is, you're responsible. It's just like all facets of job search. You know? Nobody else is gonna do anything for you. You have to be the one you know? You can ask for help. People are gonna be helpful, and you can ask AI for help. And AI will be moderately helpful in many cases, but you actually own your job search process and your career. So this is just one more tool in your toolbox.
Carol Ventresca [:Exactly. So it it's a positive thing if you if it's used positively. So just keep that in mind. And all of those of you returning to school here, just remember, it's a tool. It's not the last thing that you use. So Yep.
Brett Johnson [:Yep. Right. Yeah. Well, many thanks to Sharon Hamersley, our LinkedIn coach, resume coach, and local expert assisting job seekers throughout Central Ohio and actually across the country too. So listeners, thank you for joining us. Don't forget to check out our show notes on the website for contact information and the resources that we've discussed today. You can find all of this information at looking forward our way.com, and we're looking forward to hearing your feedback on this or any of our other podcast episodes.
