On this weeks show I am joined by Sir James Wates as we discuss Family Business Week. Sir James is the Chairman of The Wates Group and also the Institute for Family Business.

Family Business Week 2021 is a week-long celebration of family businesses, particularly in relation to supporting local communities across all parts of the UK, and providing a platform to highlight the role of business as a force for good.

We also discuss The Wates Principles. In late 2017, Sir James Wates CBE, was invited by the Government to lead the development of corporate principles for large private companies. The resulting code – now known as the Wates Principles was launched in December 2018 and provides a framework to help companies to meet legal requirements while promoting long term success. The Wates Principles encourage these companies to adopt a set of key behaviours to secure trust and confidence among stakeholders and benefit the economy and society in general.

Follow Family Business Week on Twitter @FamilyBizWeek

Join the conversation using the hashtags #FamilyBizWeek and #WeSupportFamilyBiz

You can read fascinating case studies or download content to share on social media at www.familybusinessweek.co.uk.

About Family Business Week

Family Business Week is a week long celebration of family businesses as a force for good

The pandemic has once again highlighted the vital role that businesses play in supporting their local communities, and it is these community-focused values that are at the heart of family businesses. Rooted in their local communities, family businesses provide a long-term, sustainable model which views business as a force for good. 

Family Business Week 2021 is a week-long celebration of family businesses, particularly in relation to supporting local communities across all parts of the UK, and providing a platform to highlight the role of business as a force for good. 

Led by the Institute for Family Business (IFB), the voice of the UK’s family business sector.

Find out more at www.familybusinessweek.co.uk

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www.fambizpodcast.com/support

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everybody.

And welcome to this week's show.

This is the first episode I've recorded in quite a long time.

Actually, I had planned to have a little bit of a break at the end of August.

It had intended to be a couple of weeks, but it's turned into a far longer break.

I'm sure none of you have been losing any sleep over it, but I

do apologize for those who were.

Perhaps listening to this on a regular basis and it's just paused.

The good news is I am back with this episode and we'll be recording new

episodes now in the run-up to Christmas.

Today's episode is with such James weights now.

So James is the chairman of the weights group and also the chairman

of the Institute for family business, who obviously support this show.

But also do some fantastic work in celebrating and championing the

family business sector here in the UK.

They also have a significant role to play in terms of the influence

on policymakers here as well.

So I'm joined by James to firstly, talk about.

A bit about his role, a bit about how he sees the role of the IFB

going forward and in particular, the initiative which we're celebrating this

week, which is family business week.

If you're listening to this and you are family business, please do get

involved on social media follow the.

Twitter account at family biz week and share your story,

share your photos, celebrate.

Let's get as many people as we can involved in celebrating

family business week.

Head over to the website as well, which is family business week.co.uk

to read some case studies and hear about the experiences of.

Family businesses.

So without further ado, I will pass you over to the interview

with so James, I hope you enjoy it.

And as I say, please share and celebrate your family business.

Well, hello everybody.

And welcome to this week's episode of the family business podcast.

We have a special episode this week focusing on family business week, which

we will introduce and explain during.

Episode.

But I'm absolutely delighted to be joined today by James waits.

Firstly James, welcome to the show and thank you for joining.

And we're going to be talking about family business week and the initiative

from the Institute for family business.

But perhaps before we get into the detail around that, could you give

the, those in the audience that aren't familiar with you and your role sort

of a history of who you are and how you came to be doing what you're doing.

Okay.

I'll keep it relatively brief, but hopefully interesting.

So I joined our family business, which is a fourth generation building

contracting housing and development company which originally started

in the south east of England.

And actually in south London, I'm a hundred and twenty-five

years ago next year.

It was started by my great-grandfather.

He then had three sons who ended the business.

Those three sons then had six sons went to the business, those six sons

and had another five sons who ended up in the business of which I'm one.

And it's, it's been great fun.

I've been in the business 38 years.

Full-time on the payroll.

I started eight, 15 working on site, pushing a broom as, as I

think one does in family businesses.

And that was really got me engaged in.

Alongside that I've been at my career to that through there, the business itself.

I, I, I would describe it as that for an artist to build.

I, I ran a couple sites on my own like manager.

Then I moved into a general management role in one of the

business units and was 99.

I then moved into a business development role in the mid nineties, which

was an interesting time as we were coming out of recession business.

But that was again, And I joined the group board in 1997.

And I've been there ever since I was appointed chairman in 2013.

So my cut out for nine years ago and it's been, it's been a heck of a

journey it's been thoroughly enjoyable very demanding and fun actually.

So, you know, I can look on where I watch the day with a degree of satisfaction

with And then of course, I've done a lot of stuff outside the business.

I've been involved with industry bodies build UK, which is our main trade

association in the construction sector.

I checked the construction industry trading Gould for eight years.

I was on the board for another four or five years prior to that.

So I've always done stuff alongside the business.

So when I was approached to step into that chair over the IFB and I thought,

well, it's time to put something back into the family business site.

I'm delighted to be doing it.

And I'm actually following my uncle, Andrew, he was involved.

He did his time in the chair.

So I suppose with continuing a family engagement with which

I think is very important.

So it's yeah, it's been fun and I'm really excited.

About the challenges that we faced in the IFB.

Fantastic and impressed with the answer.

A little more data on, on some of those.

As we progressed through this show, I'm interested in, in terms of

the external roles that you take away from the family business.

There's obviously.

Benefit to those organizations for having your experience involved in them.

Presumably, is that something that also benefits the operations within

the family businesses, you're able to garner some sort of experience and

knowledge from others in your industry and that side of it to bring back into

the work you're doing with the family.

Yeah, I think that's absolutely critical.

Yeah, if you can get very able to looking at the tiny business it's been

described in the past as Naval gazing.

When we were based in Northern south London, we were very mindful of not being

Naval gazing and Norbrey So to, to reach out and do stuff outside, it's always been

something that family have done actually.

Cause it gives you different perspectives away from family

away from your own business.

And you can bring that in and I have to say my experiences

outside of the business have been.

Incredibly helpful in terms of the way I, I, I occur in the way

that I engage with a business.

I think it's given me a much, much more breadth than I would have had if I just

carried on playing the, the weights FARA.

And so if we mentioned at the top of the show today marks the

start of family business week.

And before we get into some of the details around that, I appreciate

that we might be slightly biased here, but how important do you think it is

that the role that family businesses play here in the UK and beyond how

important is it that that's recognized?

I think it's critical.

And again, that's one of the reasons I stepped up into the role because I, I

felt we needed to, to shout the good news about family business from the rooftops.

There are over 5 million family businesses in the UK let alone the number of drivers.

And that's about 80% of all businesses.

80% of all businesses actually are represented by family

in some way, shape or form.

As family businesses, we employ over 14 million in the UK which

is a huge amount of people.

And alongside that, we contribute more than 200 billion pounds in taxes.

So we're not insignificant to the economy and the economic

prosperity of the country.

And therefore, I, I very firmly believe that we need to make sure that our

voice is heard, that the policies that are put in place that affect business

also take into account the dementia.

The family businesses have, which is, you know, it is different to

many PLC type businesses that are not found out or privately owned.

And I think we need to really make sure that we're on the front foot informing

policymakers about the things that are going on, the things that they're thinking

about and how they might impact us.

But I'm, I'm a real believer that we need to be working with

the policy makers rather than.

I'm got to get on the front foot and come up with solutions because you

know that the policymakers a reason it's not going to be difficult.

They want to make a difference.

So we've got to be alongside them, trying to make a difference in.

Yeah, absolutely agree.

And I think one of the important elements in terms of recognizing

family business to fold really is obviously family businesses across

all the different sectors in the UK.

And a lot of focus is given on say the.

Or the construction sector or the hospitality sector, but family businesses

are spread across all of those sectors.

And so having that representation at policy level is going to

be a very positive thing for.

Industries across the UK, but because family businesses are so

diverse across those, but also I think there's a misconception.

Sometimes that family businesses is a kind of a mom and pop shop

type organization, but you'll be.

It is obviously a very large business and there are very large

family businesses in the UK, as well as the smaller firms as well.

And presumably part of your world is helping to represent across

the board in that sense as well.

Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm very keen that, you know, the, the, the misnomer about

family, it has to be the mom and pop shop, as you say, is, is laid to rest.

You know, there are massive areas.

I mean, we have, we're not insignificant where we turn over about one and a

half billion or 6 billion move forward.

We employ directly about 4,000 people.

And we're not one of the biggest but we were not as essential as I said.

But there are many, many family businesses that would employ.

50 to a hundred, to 250 people making a real significant impact

on the community that they operate in and to the economy there.

And I think in, in that context to be promoting the, the stability, I think

that comes from family businesses.

And the stewardship that comes from family businesses right across the

sectors is, is absolutely right.

It's it's not about.

A particular sector.

It's about how we, we, we occur as family businesses right

across the business spectrum.

And again, I think, you know that the, we can work as the IFB very, very very

positively with other trade associations.

So let's, let's take one under the spectrum, the um, You

obviously represent big business.

They would claim and I support this that actually they support.

I rep represent business generally, but inevitably that it's, it's a,

it's a bigger business organization.

And then the under the, you got the FSP, the Federation of small

businesses who a lot of family businesses will be numbers off.

To me that the RFP has a unique role to play because it's about all

founded businesses, big and small.

And it's, it can bring it all together and actually be a gearbox between

the, the thinking that goes on in an organization like CVI and the FSB, where

they might say, well, you know, we're so far apart that we can never actually

be on the same page, but actually we can because of the unique unique

way that family businesses operate.

Yeah, again, completely agree on that and given their importance to the

UK economy and given the significant number of family run enterprises

in the UK, it it's great to see organizations like the IFB championing

family businesses through initiatives.

Like the one we're going to be discussing today, which is family business week.

Okay.

Can you give us a kind of overview of what the.

The purpose of the initiative is what the aim of it is.

. Sure.

I think first and foremost, it's actually a celebration.

It's a celebration of family businesses and what they do, and, and actually the

fact that we've survived the pandemic and we're moving forward very strongly.

What we don't do is shout about it.

We, a lot of.

Would would almost not say that a family business where I'm is it, is

it it's a real sales differentiator?

The fact your family.

I mean, in, in, in my business, I will often talk to customers will say,

well, the reason we liked working with you is because there's a continuity.

We got the final.

Because you will be there.

If we have talking to a PLC, for example, the chief executive might not be there

in 2, 3, 4 years time, but the family and the families will always be there.

So there's a real competence that you can actually, you can get in

touch with people who actually care.

And I think that's something that we really want to

promote, promote and celebrate.

And that I think is something we don't shout about it enough.

I think the other things we're doing.

Using it to using a founder's week to share great stories because there are

many family firms that do great things in their communities because a lot of them

are very close to the communities in which they have founded and indeed operate.

And I think they've done a huge amount.

And I think we saw almost the best of Andrea about mimic when the caring

side that comes through the family businesses really stepped up and I think.

Because it got worked outside their comfort zones, they did things in that

community to support their communities.

And I think that was incredible.

I mean, from our, from our perspective, you know, we got involved in it works on

the world, on hospital, on the Nightingale hospital to do that because it's something

we had the ability and the skills to do.

There was a need to do it and we got.

It was incredibly satisfying for the people from our

teams are involved with it.

And I think all family businesses have had that sort of example of how they've

just roll their sleeves up and go home.

I think as well, in terms of that celebration, as you say, it's because

it's sector agnostic, it's something that we're celebrating all family businesses

here in the UK during this week.

And there's a number of things that the IFP are doing for

those that are listening.

If they head over to family business week.

Dot co.uk.

There's a number of ways for people to get involved in and the stories to be shared.

And also on social media following on Twitter, particularly at

family biz week lots of different things happening on, on that.

How else can families get involved in and sort of share

their stories and celebrations?

I think Ross, you outlined the best ways of doing it there.

But actually it's just perhaps standing back and thinking, well,

w what is different about is what, what do we do that we think makes

us special as a family business?

I just think.

Who did we tell about it?

Yeah.

Talk to your local MP.

You know, I think I get incredibly frustrated.

Family businesses are all over the country.

And we don't interact with the politicians to the extent we should.

To tell them that, yeah, this is the sort of thing we do as a kind

of business come and see what we do come and talk to us so that we

actually have advocates in parliament.

Rather than it's just a family business.

Well, I guess the business will not well much more than that.

So I, I think it is going through the routes you, you outlined.

But really just thinking about w what is it that makes us question.

wholeheartedly agree with that.

That might be slightly biased given this is the family business podcast,

but I think the more that we can do to help celebrate the family

business sector here in the UK, that.

The better.

You mentioned that you've recently taken on the role as chairman of the IFB,

and we've heard already from, from what you've spoken about, how passionate

you are about the sector and some of the aims that you're having to or,

or looking to achieve with your role.

What, what more is it that you're looking to achieve in that position?

Because obviously it is.

A significant position to take on.

And what is it that you're looking to achieve whilst in the role?

Okay.

Well, I suppose there are, there are, I think there's two sides to what we're

trying to do at the IFB going forward.

One is increasing the advocacy and engagement around policymaking.

So that we're actually really delivering.

Business benefit to IFP members.

So we're actually fighting their corner in the corridors of power

on a well basis and actually taking examples to the policymakers of the

impact of policy decisions and what they can have on family business.

I'm going to recall the conversation we had around the public interest entities

were talking about a greater catchment of businesses that had to report

on their performance to the public.

And we were saying there was a round table and there were a number

of variables around that table.

It was saying if these regulations come in.

And we have to do that level of reporting.

It will be a disincentive to growing our business.

And that is at a time when, you know, we're hearing from the prime minister, how

important it is to, to build back better, to grow the economy, to move forward.

And yet you've got a potential regulation coming in that will

be a burden to business that will actually froze down ambition to grow.

And it was the bitch spot we're on that round table conversation.

And you can see that was almost dropping when they were hearing us.

And you think that's what we've got to do.

We've got to give real stories about what the impact of.

Perhaps ill thought through a potential policy making kind of have on, on

family business business generally.

But from our perspective, it was a family business, particularly.

So that's one side of it.

And the other side, which I think is the bedrock of where the RFP came

from the, the sharing of experience with other family businesses in a,

a very safe environment, because fundamentally, I think there is a record.

But a family business for ongoing generations can be a great legacy, but

equally it can be an incredible burden.

And I think sharing with others who experienced it, On the way through,

I think is a very, very important aspect of what the ISP is going to do.

So we will absolutely continue to have that sort of engagement of families

coming together and sharing their, their experiences to help others work through.

And I think that's, that was one of the things that makes us very, very special.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Agree on that.

And.

One of the elements to the IFB that you touched upon there

is, is the sense of community.

And because it's the family business element that brings people to that

community, whilst you might not be talking about something that's specific to.

The sector that you're operating in, or even the geography that you're operating

in, because there's the commonality of being in business with your family.

There's not actually that many other places to be going to talk about

that experience in the same way as they can, as businesses can do

within the IFP, because it is, it's a community for family businesses.

And it's a safe environment for people to have discussions about, well,

how do we deal with transitions of ownership and transitions of management

responsibility, trying to get that balance right between it being a, a

legacy and perhaps feeling like a burden.

It's a great place to be able to have those conversations with like-minded

open sharing and sort of caring people.

Absolutely.

And I think if I go back to the Genesis of the IFB, when we first got involved

through my uncle, Andrew, it was at a time we were planning transition

from generation to generation.

And because of his engagement, we suddenly realized that we were not unique.

There were many other families going through the same sort of challenges.

Now you weren't getting the same answer for every family because

every family is different and the family dynamics are different.

But by that, in that safe environment that you described, be able to test

thinking about things like that.

You actually saw to get an idea of the way you want to go about it.

And I have to say from our point of view, we found it incredibly

helpful and that was 20 years ago.

So I'm, I'm, I'm a huge advocate.

Yeah.

The, the thing I noticed most is how comfortable and open that the

conversations can be from a very early stage in that, in those environments,

rather than it feeling like, well, we can't, we can't give anything away.

We can't put anything on the table because we be phone report or.

Judged.

I think the opposite is the case is that it it's a very much an environment

where you can put things on the table and you can show your vulnerability.

Because, because of that, I refer to family businesses as collectively

unique in, as exactly you say the family dynamics are different amongst

all family businesses, but some of the challenges that are being faced,

our common challenges and sharing experiences around those is one way of

looking at how to tackle it and bring.

External think we mentioned that the sort of earlier in the show about

the experience or the advantage of bringing in that external experience,

hearing from other families about how they've approached challenges and

issues that they're facing is is a great way to start to address those.

Absolutely fantastic.

And we've heard obviously your passionate and a champion for

responsible and purposeful.

Businesses and whilst we're here to discuss family business week it would

be a little remiss of me to have you on the show and then not discuss the

weights principles, which obviously you were part of the coalition team that

led the development of these principles.

For those in the audience, again, who perhaps haven't heard, or aren't

familiar with the weights principles, can you give us a bit of an overview?

And then perhaps we can chat about.

All businesses can use these to become a force for good, which is one of

the themes for family businesses.

Sure.

So as is often the case, when it was announced that the government were

going to have a review at reporting and family businesses, I started pretty

much always out of the parameter.

This is ridiculous.

More regulation is going to be a neutral.

I then got approach.

it'd be really good.

You could try discussion rate.

That's going to be looking at how this should work.

And I thought, well, perhaps it's better to be involved in engaged and

try and do some shaping around it.

Then just be on the outside.

Always criticizing.

I did join the Goshen group and they asked me to chair it and

very quickly it became clear.

There's a wide group of stakeholders from CBI Institute directors venture capital

association, a num a number of other institutions who hadn't invested in this.

And what w what we decided very early on was we didn't want to have.

A code like the reporting Cofer but it listed the companies

we felt that was not right.

So we came up with the idea of having principles that would stand

the test of any good business and any good business would do these.

And if you actually report on those, people can see that you're

actually doing things the right way.

So we came up with the sixth grade schools and, and the first, first one.

Really about purpose and leadership.

So that's the north star.

This is what we're about.

This is if you don't know what your business is doing and you don't know how

you're going to lead that business, then you're probably going down a blind down.

So we said, get this north star out and actually say what what it is important

that you are about and the guiding star The second principle was very much around

the board composition because a lot of family businesses and private businesses

might be really the entrepreneur founder.

And.

As the directors going back to our other conversation, that's not

necessarily getting the best input into how you run your business.

And the, the breadth of thought that comes into it.

So book composition is very important.

There's no, no fixed answer for that.

It's very much dependent on the size and scale of the business and the

complexity of the business and supply.

But from a waste point of view, we've, we've had.

Non-executives involved in our business since probably since the sixties, late

sixties, when my father's generation took over, they saw the benefit of

having outside voices, giving them guidance, and we've done that ever since.

And we really find it incredibly, incredibly helpful.

Something else that then came out on the principles three was the board

responsibilities because it became quite apparent that a lot of people take on.

Title of director without understanding what their responsibilities are as

a director, you're under section 1 72 of the companies that is pretty

clear what you're going to do.

And we said, you know, you've got to understand you would

reference possibilities.

Cause if you don't, you, the chances are you can get into trouble,

you'll make a mistake or whatever.

And then we, we went down to the what I call the bottom of the period

with the real building blocks and.

There's always a focus on risk.

And we took the view that there's too much focus on risk and not enough focus and

opportunity because you need to offset all the risks with the opportunity, because if

you become totally risk averse, then your business will stall it'll stagnate and

you, you will, you will not go forward.

So you've always got to counterbalance the risks with.

So opportunity rests was very, very important to the coalition book.

And I think it was, it was absolutely right to do that.

The, the, the, the fifth building block, the middle a bit of the pyramid

was probably the most contentious one insofar as it was remuneration, because.

I mean, I have a view that the remuneration in the private companies

between the, that company and the people that employ run that

company be they family be that professional exactly is whatever.

And actually it is, it is nobody's business, but actually in this world, you

cannot take that black and white view.

So we said, yes, we should report on our remuneration, but

it's more about the philosophy.

Robin the, the quantum, so I think it's, it's important that we felt

it was important, but it actually, you're looking at your generation,

the context of the company, the sector you're in and the balance of

remuneration right across the business.

So you don't have the massive differentials that you get

in some businesses between bass band-aids and salt.

And I think that that landed quite.

And then the final one was stakeholder engagement because

people say, well, how are you going to be held to account on this?

Well, you'll be held to account hell of account in, in the because of

public interest and public opinion.

So if you are saying you're doing something and you're not.

In this day and age would be called outbreak with social media.

So actually engaging your stakeholders, their clients, their shareholders, bed

workforce, be it cause the communities in which you're working, whatever you've

got to tell them what you're doing.

So what is your communications policy for your stakeholder group?

And we just felt that those six principles were, they were good to go.

I mean, you can spend a lot of time working in through.

They would, they would stand the test and the rigor of anybody saying,

so what's it going to do for us?

And it's a bit like holding a mirror up to yourself and say, okay, do we do this?

And if we don't, should we, and you may choose not to, but you know, when

you're reporting under the the company's act requirements, you actually can,

can make the decision, but you are reporting on that, but you're not doing.

So I think it's, it's, it's, it's been pretty effective

from a waste point of view.

We've been reporting on them since, before they came into force,

because we felt we should probably show middle leadership on that.

So we're now in the third iteration and about to produce the force.

And it's, every year we get better understanding of what we want to

do and using those principles to actually demonstrate that we are.

A good business.

Well, well done.

It's bet.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think that the important side of it is that they are guiding principles

rather than say the tick list of this is what it has to look like.

And also my understanding of it is that they apply from a

corporate governance perspective to businesses of certain sizes.

But actually that application can be across businesses of all sizes.

And what you were mentioning before about the every business starts with

a founder and in order to get to a, a large site, I need to go through growth

process and that growth process can be.

Paying for again, particularly when there's family members involved and

the need to perhaps introduce external board members to introduce external

expertise into senior management teams.

And those transitions can be complicated, but, but I see these principles as

acting as a way of helping guide businesses through that as well,

because it might not be that they have to do everything in order to get to.

Reporting against it, but using them as a benchmark for their growth journey

helps them to do that in a smoother way.

Would, would you agree with that viewpoint?

Yes.

And that's very much what we, we set out to do is I set out

a template for what any good.

Would would do in, in very simple terms.

And you know, behind those six principles, there are guidelines as to

how one could go about implementing, not to take list, as you say it's

not saying, oh, we've done that tick.

It's all about.

So how can we use that principle to develop the

particular part of our business?

And it's the feedback we've had is it's landed incredibly well.

And the FRC just first reporting.

I've just completed the first, first review, which has been very, very

insightful as to the take-up of reporting and the number of companies

that are using the weights principles as their method of reporting.

And I think, I think it will go my mentor.

My concern is that with.

Folks that go government currently has on widening the net for PIs.

It might have a detrimental effect on take up because people will.

Uh, Doing it while they wait for what the next iteration is,

which I think would be a shame.

The feedback we've given to the government from the MRC is look, let's

see how this works first, rather than, you know, put up plants to inspect

the roots and make sure it's okay.

Now that's probably not what best thing to do.

Let's nurture the plant.

Absolutely.

And considering businesses are currently operating against a

backdrop of a global pandemic.

And here in the UK, we're currently navigating a post-Brexit landscape

that things are complicated from it from a business perspective.

Anyway.

And given that backdrop, what advice would you give to

family businesses to help them?

I suppose be bold be, be true to yourself.

Be true to your values and just, yeah, believe in yourself, believe in your plan.

Put out a plan and, and really go for it.

And I think recognize that.

Yeah, F company is different.

I think the, the new business of our own behalf Demonstrates that

actually you've got to be flexible.

You've got to be adaptable.

You've got to recognize that, that the shifting sands of the market are

something that is out there at the moment.

And we've got to be, you've got to be agile.

You've got to be able to deal with what's come at you.

But I don't think it means that your purpose should change.

I think you should absolutely stay car by your ethos that you, you

believe what you're doing is good.

Yeah.

And one of the things we always send out, family businesses,

we can take a longer-term view.

We don't have short term shelter pressures.

Yes, of course.

We have to maintain sustain profitability.

We have to maintain cash and so on because we have to stay in business.

But actually you can make long-term decisions.

Whereas you know, a lot of things.

In business are much more forceful for the short term.

So I would say that, and, you know, never missed opportunity, but joined the IFB.

Absolutely.

And for those again, who might be listening, who I mean, th the show

itself is supported by the IFB.

So I would hope that most people would know how to get in touch in order to

find out more, but where's the best place for them to find more about the

I've been at work that you're doing.

Well, in, in this day and age, of course, it's the website.

You know, the, the website is the, the, the repository of

everything about the organization.

And you know, we are very much looking to keep it refresh capability forward.

Keep it relevant because a website that is.

like an old book, but actually it needs to be much more about,

much more like a magazine.

So it's more current than you actually want to go through it.

And you want to see what's going on.

You want me to engage?

So I would say website.

Absolutely.

Is, is the front and center face?

Fantastic.

And just as a reminder to the audience, there is the IFB website, which is

ifb.org.uk, and specifically for family business week to hear some of the

stories that are being told and case studies that are being shared on there,

that is family business week.co.uk.

So James, thank you so much.

For joining us on the show today.

It's very exciting to hear firstly about this initiative, but also

for the plans you have for the IFB.

And I wish you every success with those and obviously anything we can do to

support that we are very happy to do so.

But thank you again for joining us on the show today.