Lifelong learning and the power of learning is key to an individual's success in the workplace. So when education barriers for adult students and job seekers exist, we all lose.

With is us Dr. Phyllis Cummins, Senior Research Scholar at Miami University's Scripps Gerontology Center. The Center has a reputation as a strong partner and supporter of programs for older adults throughout Ohio. She helps us dive into the issues and barriers she has researched and any successful trends.

Historically, it's always been more difficult for older workers to enter the job market. Early in 2020, and now exiting the pandemic, employers are stating they can't find qualified workers, when so many older adults want to stay employed.

Ohio's economy can't continue to grow without a trained and educated workforce. But our educational systems seem to prevent Ohioans from workforce training. Partly because financial aid doesn't apply to adult and part-time students. And there is less flexibility in courses that are lock-step or rigid in scheduling. And campuses are less adult student friendly.

What is needed, in part, is "one-stop" shopping with continued education. That is, one place to go for information on all programs in Ohio. Plus better visibility and information on the direct link of education to better jobs. And lastly, financial aid for with credit and non-credit courses.

Dr. Cummins gives us some good news on information and examples of successful programs in Ohio as well. One program, as an example, is called Age-Friendly University. Two exist in Ohio, specifically, at Miami University and University of Akron. These aren't what are commonly called "Program 60." These are for workforce training.

Resources we mentioned in this podcast can be found here.

We would love to hear from you.

Email us at hello@lookingforwardourway.com.

Find us on Facebook.

Please review our podcast on Google!

And of course everything can be found on our website, Looking Forward Our Way.

Recorded in Studio C at 511 Studios. A production of Circle270Media Podcast Consultants.

Speaker1:

We are looking forward our way from Studio C in the 511 Studios located in the Brewery

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District in downtown Columbus.

Speaker1:

This is Brett and with me, as always, is Carol.

Speaker2:

You know, today's topic is very close to my heart.

Speaker2:

We have always talked about lifelong learning and the power of learning and an individual

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success in the workplace.

Speaker2:

So I'm pretty excited with where we're going today.

Speaker1:

Yeah, and now it's my turn to bring in my alma mater because you got yours earlier with

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our pandemic in the art series.

Speaker1:

So today's guest is from Miami University in Oxford, Ohio.

Speaker1:

I'm a graduate 88.

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Welcome at Dr. Phyllis Cummins, senior research scholar from Miami's Scripps Gerontology

Speaker1:

Center. Dr. Cummins, thank you so much for joining us today.

Speaker1:

I mean, I'm glad we got to make this happen in studio.

Speaker3:

I agree. I think it's a much better setting and it's nice to be face to face people after

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after the year we've been through.

Speaker2:

Oh, absolutely.

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Absolutely. We haven't seen Phyllis for a while.

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She has been a supporter with Brittny of of our previous agency.

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And so we're glad to see you again today.

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So as I mentioned, though, the discussion revolves around job seekers and their success

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in the workplace. How do you find a new opportunity?

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Move up the ladder, change your career field?

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What kinds of things do you have to do as a as a job seeker?

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But employers are also telling us that they can't find qualified workers.

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So today, Phyllis is going to help us dive into the issues and the barriers that she has

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researched and any successful trends she's seen.

Speaker1:

All right. Well, let's give our listeners an overview of your background first, though.

Speaker1:

So it kind of sets the stage you started in business and then an MBA from University of

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Northern Florida moved into human resources at Florida Gulf Coast, then into gerontology

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with your doctoral program at Miami, including a postdoctoral program with Scripps

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Center. Tell us more about that journey.

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You move from real estate investing to research in gerontology.

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That's that's a huge leap.

Speaker3:

It is a big leap.

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I like to tell people it took me 40 years to get my Ph.D.

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because I got my undergrad, my bachelors at Ohio State in 1973.

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And then I completed my Ph.D.

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in social gerontology at Miami University in 2013.

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So for 40 year gap, a

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Lot of research.

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And so my my major at Ohio State was in real estate and marketing in what was then the

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College of Administrative Science.

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And now it's the Fisher College of Business.

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And I worked for Prudential Financial for many years in the real estate investment

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department. The first job I had with Prudential was in Jacksonville, Florida.

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And while I was working there, I went to University of North Florida at night and got my

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MBA. I moved around a bit with Prudential.

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I worked in there, Jacksonville, Florida office, then Cleveland and Cincinnati.

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But I spent most of my career at in their corporate office at Newark in Newark, New

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Jersey. I took early retirement at age 48.

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My husband and I moved to Florida.

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We build a home on an Enbridge island.

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And we were there during the 2004 and 2005 hurricane season.

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And those are our house on this unabridged island, which was built new, but it was

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damaged such that it needed quite a bit of repairs.

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And we did live in it again.

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After that, I got bored.

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So I decided to go to Florida Gulf Coast University and I completed a second bachelor's

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in human performance, which is like exercise science, and they have a master's program in

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gerontology. And while I was getting the bachelors in human performance, we had a couple

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of clinical and I found that I enjoyed working with older adults with their exercise

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program. So that attracted me to gerontology.

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And I did my master's in gerontology.

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And by the time we finished that, we got tired of preparing for hurricanes.

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And I thought, I'm from Ohio and I convinced my husband to move back here, which didn't

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take much convincing after I took him to one Ohio State football game.

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There you go.

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So anyway, so we moved back to Ohio full time, I guess it would have been in 2008.

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And I was investigating doctoral programs.

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I never in my wildest dreams thought that I would complete a PhD program.

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I was finish. It's always sounded quite intimidating, but I applied at Miami University

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to their doctoral program and was accepted and I completed my PhD in 2013.

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My my dissertation research was about older workers and job training programs for older

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workers, because at the time I started the program, it was the great.

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Recession was just winding down and I had a great awareness of some of the struggles that

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older workers were facing, so I used data from the Workforce Investment Act.

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We had data which has since been replaced by the Workforce Investment Opportunity Act.

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We owe to look at outcomes for older adults who participated.

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And we have programs. And then I also looked at community college programs that focused

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on older workers.

Speaker3:

I met Carol when I was doing some work for the Ohio Department of Aging on their senior

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community service employment program.

Speaker3:

Cesar and Mark Malai introduced us, I believe.

Speaker3:

Yes, and that work led to some applications for some grants from the Institution of

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Education Sciences, which is the U.S.

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Department of Education.

Speaker3:

And I've been successful in being a part of four rather large grants with with.

Speaker3:

Ah, yes. And they the first one focused on adults ages 40 and older, enrolled in Ohio's

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community colleges.

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And they're my projects are all mixed methods.

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We use data from the Ohio Longitudinal Data Archive to look at both educational and

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employment outcomes for older adults.

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And then from a qualitative perspective, we had three case study community colleges where

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we had focus groups of older students to really understand what barriers they face, what

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their goals are, what why they go back to school, how are they different from younger

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students? And we talk to administrative staff and chief academic officer.

Speaker3:

So that was the first grant and we used with another collaborator.

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We used data from the program for the International Assessment of Adult Competencies,

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which is Piak.

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It's an international survey of adult skills.

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Data were collected in the U.S.

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in 2011 and 12 and then again in 2014.

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And the skills assessment measure literacy, numeracy and problem solving skills in a

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technology rich environment.

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And that one also was mixed methods.

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And we did interviews with people in multiple countries, including several European

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countries, to really understand what are their policies and programs to support adult

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learning. How can that inform what we do in the U.S.?

Speaker3:

And then a current project I'm involved in, similar to the community college project in

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Ohio, but is to look at Ohio technical centers and there are roughly 50 of those in Ohio

Speaker3:

and they award certificates and diplomas.

Speaker3:

They're not associate's degrees.

Speaker3:

They're lower than that.

Speaker3:

But they most of the students that are enrolled, there are adult students ages 25 and

Speaker3:

older,

Speaker1:

I thought was interesting.

Speaker1:

Key that you an age that you said in there about 40 and above.

Speaker1:

Mm hmm. I think people are under the misconception that this is just 65, 70 year old

Speaker1:

people are talking about it. I know it's all the way down to.

Speaker1:

Right. 40S.

Speaker1:

Yeah, really. Focus on it.

Speaker1:

Start start the focus.

Speaker3:

Now, part of the reason we selected Age Forty was that's the age for age discrimination.

Speaker3:

And just from a from the concept of what could what could we get approved for funding, we

Speaker3:

really needed to include an age group that would be attractive to funders here.

Speaker3:

And it's really about age 40 is when people start thinking about, well, are they going to

Speaker3:

have to change careers and make those decisions?

Speaker2:

Right. But I think, too, that employers recognize that there are changes in individuals

Speaker2:

perception of work and their decisions on where they want to go, what there may be a

Speaker2:

change in their career path.

Speaker2:

I mean, I think forty is a pivotal year and people don't realize that.

Speaker2:

And I have to say, when Phyllis and I first met, when the Department of Aging was doing a

Speaker2:

lot of work, they were really recognizing even at that point in time, because aging was

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normally working with folks 65 and over, and it was very much Medicare and health care

Speaker2:

issues. But they recognized that older workers were pivotal to our economy, that we could

Speaker2:

Ohio was not going to reach the the the levels it was looking for in economic development

Speaker2:

without including older workers.

Speaker2:

And I'm putting my little quotes up here in the air.

Speaker2:

And so they started looking at 50 and over.

Speaker2:

But as you said, I mean, the Discrimination Act on on look.

Speaker2:

Workers age 40 and over has been around for a while.

Speaker2:

We're changing the mindset of older workers that it's not just the retiree who wants to,

Speaker2:

you know, be the Wal-Mart greeter.

Speaker2:

That's not really what we're looking at.

Speaker3:

That's right. In one of the manuscripts we've been working on, one of my collaborators

Speaker3:

wrote the phrase, older workers need work and employers need older workers.

Speaker2:

Oh, absolutely.

Speaker3:

And that's so true in Ohio.

Speaker3:

But they may or may not have the skills that that employers are looking for.

Speaker2:

Right. You know, as I mentioned, Phyllis and I have gotten to know each other over many,

Speaker2:

many years of my working with older adults, looking for work.

Speaker2:

And I can't tell you and I can't thank the Scripps Center enough for all of the times I

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have got dived into their website, found what I needed and used it in the next grant

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report that I wrote.

Speaker2:

And and I did give them credit, but they they did the work for me.

Speaker2:

But I don't know.

Speaker2:

I mean, it's kind of a jewel under the bushel sort of thing.

Speaker2:

People don't know about Scripps.

Speaker2:

So tell us a little bit more about sort of the overall picture.

Speaker3:

Sure. And I suspect you are using the population Web site.

Speaker3:

Oh, yeah. And if you haven't looked lately, it looks very different.

Speaker3:

It's been totally updated.

Speaker3:

And there there are a lot more different sorts of data available, wonderful ones on the

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on the Web site. But Scripps is really one of the top centers for research on aging and

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education. We have the Department of Sociology and Gerontology has degree programs at the

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bachelor's, master's and PhD level.

Speaker3:

And there really only one of a handful of universities in the country that have offered

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all three degrees.

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Ohio, well, Scripps is especially well known for its Ohio long term care research

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project, which was established in response to the growing older population.

Speaker3:

And as I mentioned, the population website has recently been updated.

Speaker3:

I also wanted to mention of some recent work Scripps has been doing with AARP.

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They've been collaborating to develop an AARP nursing home, covid-19 DAT Dashboard, to

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provide four week snapshots of the virus infiltration in nursing homes.

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And it's received a lot of press.

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And now they're working on a project with AARP to to examine how covid is impacting

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nursing homes serving a high proportion of minority residents.

Speaker3:

It's not just Scripps research staff, but there's research fellows from various

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departments and colleges across the university that have an interest in aging issues.

Speaker3:

So we all work towards making a positive difference in the lives of aging individuals and

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their families.

Speaker2:

I think for our listeners, why?

Speaker2:

Why I think this is critical to hear more about what Scripps does is, number one, we need

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more young people to study the area because needless to say, our population is aging,

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particularly here in Ohio and to under to better understand what's going on with older

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adults, because as our friend Fran Ryan, who's going to be on another podcast with us,

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always says, what's good for older adults is also good for younger adults.

Speaker2:

The services that an older adult needs, chances are pretty good that that a younger adult

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is going to need it. So for our listeners, not only do you want to I want you to see

Speaker2:

Scripps is a great place to go.

Speaker2:

If you have a question, there's lots of information there.

Speaker2:

But it'll also see this as a stepping stone if you know some young folk who would like to

Speaker2:

do more and study more in gerontology.

Speaker3:

Yeah, and I think that it's being increasingly recognized that, say, someone is a business

Speaker3:

major and they're going to do financial planning.

Speaker3:

Chances are they're going to interact with individuals of all ages.

Speaker3:

So just understanding cognitive differences of us as we age and understand the issues

Speaker3:

that older adults might be facing from an employment perspective.

Speaker3:

Right. So I think that across the university, there's an increasing understanding of the

Speaker3:

importance of knowledge about aging.

Speaker3:

Right.

Speaker2:

And I think all those I.T.

Speaker2:

students who are writing apps need to know more about aging.

Speaker2:

So they write apps that we can see, right?

Speaker1:

Well well, the medical field is divided up and you can specialize in this.

Speaker1:

Why not other fields as well being financial or tech that it becomes?

Speaker1:

Yeah, think about this.

Speaker1:

That's that's that's actually a market to where the event sumers.

Speaker2:

And I think I think the pandemic showed that we not only are big consumers, we have we are

Speaker2:

perfectly capable of going on Amazon and ordering stuff.

Speaker3:

So lots of stuff.

Speaker2:

But I know I was breaking down boxes with.

Speaker2:

Get rid of recycling.

Speaker2:

Yeah, so yeah, so thank you.

Speaker2:

Thank you for that.

Speaker1:

Well, let's set the stage for our listeners.

Speaker1:

We had a very turbulent year with the pandemic.

Speaker1:

However, the economy was moving quickly and successfully before March of twenty twenty.

Speaker1:

And right now the expectations are that it will is going to pick back up again.

Speaker1:

Thank goodness. Now that vaccines are available, we, you know, have some positive

Speaker1:

momentum. Yet it's always been more difficult for older workers to enter the job market

Speaker1:

historically than compared to younger workers.

Speaker1:

Let's explore what was going on in early 2020 and why employers were stating they

Speaker1:

couldn't find qualified workers when so many older adults wanted to stay in the

Speaker1:

workplace.

Speaker3:

Well, I think there's several reasons.

Speaker3:

Ageism is always an issue, just the perception that older adults can't learn new things,

Speaker3:

that they will just start working and retire in a couple of years and the lack or

Speaker3:

unwillingness of some employers to make investments in job training for older workers.

Speaker3:

But another reason is that older adults may not have the skills that employers are

Speaker3:

looking for. I mentioned before problem solving skills and technology rich environments

Speaker3:

that includes critical thinking skills, problem solving skills, you know, figuring out

Speaker3:

how to to go from A to Z on a project, teamwork, all those sorts of skills are

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increasingly important for employers.

Speaker3:

And it's what they look for.

Speaker3:

And it may not be what what?

Speaker3:

Older adults, middle aged adults.

Speaker3:

Are accustomed to what they learned when they were in college.

Speaker3:

So that's part of the reason, I think one issue with middle aged and older workers and

Speaker3:

perhaps why they don't have the skills some employers are looking for is because they may

Speaker3:

have gotten out of high school or college 20 or 30 years ago and perhaps they haven't

Speaker3:

kept their skills up, perhaps technology skills.

Speaker3:

There's a concept of digital natives and digital immigrants.

Speaker3:

I'm a digital immigrant and there are very few jobs today that don't involve technology

Speaker3:

in some way, using a computer four to clock in your time or, you know, whatever.

Speaker3:

And I think that in the U.S., there really hasn't been this a concept about the

Speaker3:

importance of lifelong learning and a learning society where we continue to learn and are

Speaker3:

provided with opportunities to learn and build new skills.

Speaker3:

So I think that's part of the reason.

Speaker3:

Well, there

Speaker1:

Was that natural transition that employers stopped training their own right and it became

Speaker1:

a burden on you. Well, I shouldn't call it a burden, but it was a responsibility of the

Speaker1:

employee to continue that training on their own time

Speaker3:

And with their own money and their own

Speaker2:

Money. But they weren't changing their jobs.

Speaker2:

So I don't think people recognized the need to continue.

Speaker2:

Correct. And when we say training, we're really talking something much bigger than just

Speaker2:

how to make a widget or how to move a piece of paper from one desk to another.

Speaker2:

It was really like looking at looking forward, getting information at the ad that's

Speaker2:

coming along that you may not need today, but you're going to need tomorrow.

Speaker3:

That's right. And think of what a manufacturing plant looks like today.

Speaker3:

Right. Versus what it looked like 20 or 30 years ago and all the automation and robotics

Speaker3:

that are involved

Speaker1:

Now and the clean environment and the

Speaker3:

Clean environment.

Speaker2:

Yeah, I'm going to digress here just for a second, because one of the things that I would

Speaker2:

see in my clients when they were having trouble in their job searching because they were

Speaker2:

so attuned to the job they did and the tasks they did, they didn't even really understand

Speaker2:

that they had learned a lot and that they had gone through training and that there they

Speaker2:

were capable of doing critical thinking.

Speaker2:

They just didn't put it in that context.

Speaker2:

So it may not be that they don't have the skills, but they don't recognize how to show

Speaker2:

the value that they bring to a workplace.

Speaker3:

I think that's right. And I think there's also the concept of self-imposed ageism, right.

Speaker3:

That they lack confidence, that they assume that they're going to be treated with an

Speaker3:

ageist attitude.

Speaker3:

Right. When they may not be.

Speaker3:

And I think that is an issue for just assuming that will this potential employer is going

Speaker3:

to have an interesting attitude rather than go in and really sell themselves and what

Speaker3:

they can offer.

Speaker2:

I had a client, I was doing a workshop, and this was in the middle of the recession.

Speaker2:

And this gentleman who was, you know, dressed to the nines, got up and said, I applied

Speaker2:

for the perfect job for me.

Speaker2:

I was the absolute best candidate and I didn't get it.

Speaker2:

They just decided I was too old.

Speaker2:

And so we talked about it in front of a group of 100 people out there.

Speaker2:

And I finally said to him, So do you know who got the job?

Speaker2:

And he said, no. And I said, So you have no idea how old that person is.

Speaker2:

They could be one day older than you.

Speaker2:

You don't know. And and so it's not your assumption.

Speaker2:

It's what how you project your own abilities and value.

Speaker3:

And I heard of a similar circumstance where an individual was convinced that he was being

Speaker3:

he was a victim of ageism.

Speaker3:

And the person that was working with him asked to see his resume.

Speaker3:

The resume was full of typographical errors.

Speaker3:

Oh, there you go. So, you know, there's things like that.

Speaker3:

And then the individual assumed, well, it was ageism when in fact, it was his own his own

Speaker3:

typographical or grammatical errors in his resume.

Speaker3:

Right.

Speaker2:

So, Phyllis, you know, education, it can be a major barrier and not just college.

Speaker2:

So many people don't they haven't finished high school or they've only done GED programs.

Speaker2:

We've got trade schools.

Speaker2:

We've got technical programs and careers that require certificate or license.

Speaker2:

Ohio seems to have a school on every corner.

Speaker2:

You know, bless Governor Rhodes.

Speaker2:

He has community colleges all over the place.

Speaker2:

But employers keep saying they can't find qualified candidates.

Speaker2:

Why are adults not pursuing education in Ohio?

Speaker3:

I think one of the reasons is they don't understand the benefit.

Speaker3:

They don't realize that it's something that they need to do.

Speaker3:

But it might take an employment shock, a job loss for them to seek training.

Speaker3:

I think another factor is that some adults, particularly those with just a high school

Speaker3:

graduate degree, they may have had.

Speaker3:

Bad experiences in education at younger ages, whether it be bullying or maybe they had

Speaker3:

one really bad teacher and it turned them off from pursuing education, and they just are

Speaker3:

afraid they might have perceptions that they're too old to learn.

Speaker3:

They might think they can't afford going back to school.

Speaker3:

They might have a fear of test taking and they might have a lack of knowledge about

Speaker3:

programs that are available in their community and how they might benefit and how they

Speaker3:

might be able to upgrade their skills.

Speaker3:

And sometimes some of the people we had in our focus groups, it was before the community

Speaker3:

college project. It was not long after the Great Recession.

Speaker3:

And I recall one individual talking about they were there to upgrade their skills, to

Speaker3:

reduce their risk of future job loss.

Speaker3:

They wanted to have that extra degree so that they would be in a better position to be

Speaker3:

less likely to lose their job.

Speaker3:

And if they did lose their job, to have a qualification, that would make them more

Speaker3:

employable, more attractive to other employers.

Speaker3:

So I think a lot of it is just a lack of knowledge about what the opportunities are.

Speaker3:

And there are some quite affordable opportunities in Ohio and there are many options for

Speaker3:

financial aid.

Speaker2:

You know, when you think about it and going back to to what we were talking about just a

Speaker2:

bit ago, there's really been a change in how we should perceive our job.

Speaker2:

For many people coming out of college in their 20s, they saw it as a profession and knew

Speaker2:

that there were going to be steps they had to take to keep up their license to keep

Speaker2:

duCille use they were required to do.

Speaker2:

And those kinds of positions where folks who didn't go to a college or trade school had a

Speaker2:

position where in a good job, maybe in manufacturing or logistics, wherever, but they

Speaker2:

didn't see that as a career.

Speaker2:

They saw it as a job.

Speaker2:

And you just applied for a job and you got that job and kind of and a story.

Speaker2:

You did it for eight hours a day and you went home where now really employers are have

Speaker2:

higher expectations, regardless of what level that job is.

Speaker2:

And then and it's the same kind of preparation and continued learning at all levels.

Speaker3:

That's right. That's right, Carol.

Speaker2:

Yeah. So, OK.

Speaker2:

All right.

Speaker1:

We touched upon this earlier.

Speaker1:

It it looks as though we can't build Ohio's economy without a trained and educated

Speaker1:

workforce. In your opinion, what's happened and continues to happen in our educational

Speaker1:

systems that prevent Ohioans from workforce training?

Speaker1:

We talked about the students here just a moment ago.

Speaker1:

Let's get into the systems that exist.

Speaker3:

Yes, you're absolutely right that Ohio needs a trained and educated workforce.

Speaker3:

And I think the Ohio Department of Higher Education is really recognized that they had a

Speaker3:

grant from the Lumina Foundation to really focus in on educational attainment for adults

Speaker3:

ages 25 to 64.

Speaker3:

The women in a foundation just based on their own research propose that in order for the

Speaker3:

U.S. to be competitive, that about 60 to 65 percent of adults ages 25 to 64 needed to

Speaker3:

have a credential recognized in the workplace, which could be a certificate, it could be

Speaker3:

an associate's degree or bachelor's degree.

Speaker3:

Ohio is somewhere in the mid 40s right now, maybe 46, 47 percent.

Speaker3:

And Ohio Department of Higher Ed or ODAC formed an adult learner working group, which

Speaker3:

which I was a part of.

Speaker3:

And there were representatives from higher ed institutions from across the state at all

Speaker3:

levels, um, Ohio's technical centers, community colleges and baccalaureate institutions

Speaker3:

where we're a part of this.

Speaker3:

And to really develop strategies from from a lot of different perspectives, from reducing

Speaker3:

inequality just from through the equity lens, because a lot of institutions, particularly

Speaker3:

baccalauréat institutions, racial and ethnic minorities, are underrepresented and

Speaker3:

underrepresented. So I think Ohio has recognized it.

Speaker3:

And there's another piece to that, that because of the decline in fertility rates,

Speaker3:

projections for college enrollment by high school graduates by, say, 2020, 2030 is really

Speaker3:

projected to decline.

Speaker3:

And that's well recognized.

Speaker3:

And it's recognized that in order for US colleges throughout Ohio to maintain enrollment

Speaker3:

levels, they have to go after the adult students.

Speaker3:

And it's it's not.

Speaker3:

Just from an enrollment standpoint, but also to meet employer needs in Ohio, right?

Speaker1:

Right, right. Right.

Speaker1:

Yeah, it's in our former lives working with Carol at a nonprofit, we had a guest speaker,

Speaker1:

Elizabeth ISIL, founder of the Global Institute for Experienced on Entrepreneurship.

Speaker1:

And and again, she has this global view of it.

Speaker1:

And it was really eye opening with what she spoke about.

Speaker1:

And I think this tapers off of what you just talked about, that the United States has no

Speaker1:

clue on the workforce development compared to other countries in regards to implementing

Speaker1:

15 over 40 and over and recognizing that they're very talented in what they do and we're

Speaker1:

so far behind.

Speaker3:

Yeah, and I think Europe may be ahead of us just because they're they have a their

Speaker3:

population is aging even faster than the U.S., Germany, Italy.

Speaker3:

They are actually projecting population declines.

Speaker3:

I think the Scandinavian countries are especially ahead of the U.S.

Speaker3:

in terms of offering lifelong learning opportunities.

Speaker3:

They have what they call Fulci High schools.

Speaker3:

They have what they call learning circles or learning associations that are available at

Speaker3:

little or no cost to adults of all ages.

Speaker3:

And it's not just the learning aspect, it's the social aspect and the social trust, civic

Speaker3:

engagement. All of those things are built as well.

Speaker1:

And it's a cultural thing. I totally get that.

Speaker1:

That's generation after generation after generation of this.

Speaker1:

You hit the peak of 65 and you're ready to retire and you hit the rock or on the front

Speaker1:

porch and those days are gone.

Speaker3:

Well, a lot of that goes back to the shift from defined benefit to defined contribution

Speaker3:

retirement plans when right when most corporations in the U.S.

Speaker3:

shifted the risk to retirement to their employees.

Speaker3:

And a lot of people have not done as well as they should have in terms of their financial

Speaker3:

planning for retirement.

Speaker3:

So they've ended up staying in the labor force at older ages.

Speaker2:

Do you think also, though, too, that because the U.S.

Speaker2:

population was considered a young population until the baby boomers started hitting

Speaker2:

middle age? I mean, we we we had that notion of we were going to be perpetually young and

Speaker2:

young. Now we're young at heart.

Speaker2:

But, you know, it's the population is aging and it's not going to change,

Speaker3:

You know, and with declining birth rates, right?

Speaker2:

That's right. I mean, and we depended on on higher immigration.

Speaker2:

And now who knows where that's going so well.

Speaker1:

And but we knew this wave was coming.

Speaker1:

I remember hearing those reports like, well, there's this big boomer generation that's

Speaker1:

going to hit us at this certain point in time.

Speaker1:

And these are the factors that have come into play.

Speaker1:

And and what we have to really watch out for and like how that's so far away, that's so

Speaker1:

far away and all of a sudden, boom, right.

Speaker1:

It's here. And it's like we weren't prepared.

Speaker1:

We knew this was coming.

Speaker2:

We just wanted to ignore the hope that something else would happen.

Speaker1:

Almost. Yeah. Just keep kicking the can down the road.

Speaker1:

Right.

Speaker2:

Exactly. Well, and as I kind of in other podcasts and in earlier in this one hinted, one

Speaker2:

of my previous career lives was at one of the major universities and continuing education

Speaker2:

and 20 years of really helping adults and and our definition of adult students were

Speaker2:

usually 23 and up.

Speaker2:

So I mean, adults, but it was basically out of high school five years and really seen the

Speaker2:

issues and trying to create systems and services based on their needs being, you know,

Speaker2:

offices opened in the evening and on Saturday mornings and helping people hand walk

Speaker2:

through registration, particularly when they went to online registration because it was

Speaker2:

so foreign to our students.

Speaker2:

And as I mentioned before, we started podcasting this morning at my university, the

Speaker2:

continuing ed students, the adult students on campus were the second largest group of

Speaker2:

students on campus.

Speaker2:

But the university did not recognise that need.

Speaker2:

And I think at that every university in Ohio closed their continuing ad unit.

Speaker2:

They may have created something else in its wake, but but basically everything that said,

Speaker2:

adult students continuing education was gone.

Speaker2:

And that's that's critical.

Speaker2:

I mean, talk about not making adults welcome on campus.

Speaker2:

You get rid of their unit and not give them something else.

Speaker2:

So we've talked about a little bit about the systems, Phyllis.

Speaker2:

What? What?

Speaker2:

Can we do to help our educational system recognise the importance of adult students?

Speaker3:

I think that some of that is changing and I think of some of the programs at Miami

Speaker3:

University, there's an initiative to create sort of micro credentials for students or

Speaker3:

they can be alums. They can be people in the community to really re-engage or keep

Speaker3:

engaged adults for learning opportunities throughout their life.

Speaker3:

I'm I'm an alum of Ohio State, and I get.

Speaker3:

Emails from their alumni association about various opportunities to listen to a webinar

Speaker3:

or things like that, but I think that going back to the issue of enrollment, perhaps.

Speaker3:

Enrolment can be thought of in a different way, not not enrolling in a program of study,

Speaker3:

but enrolling in maybe a micro credential.

Speaker2:

Right, exactly.

Speaker2:

And we said years ago that an adult student goes back to a campus because they have a

Speaker2:

need that need can be met with a certain number of courses, one or more.

Speaker2:

And they're getting a degree is not their priority.

Speaker2:

But the universities and many colleges are still based on that notion of degree granting

Speaker2:

degree track.

Speaker3:

Well, one of the things that we found in the community college study there, there were

Speaker3:

data or data available on student goals.

Speaker3:

And we looked by age at student goals.

Speaker3:

Were they there to get an associate's degree?

Speaker3:

What was their reason for going?

Speaker3:

And with increasing age, more of the students were there for some short term training to

Speaker3:

upgrade their skills or for personal enrichment and not really seeking a degree.

Speaker3:

Right. They were there to maybe to build a skill that would help them stay employed.

Speaker2:

And and I think one of the differences is that when people did that before, they already

Speaker2:

had a degree. But I'm guessing that today they may not have a degree.

Speaker2:

It's still very much skills based,

Speaker3:

Its skills base.

Speaker3:

But we were surprised.

Speaker3:

And granted, the focus group volunteers are not a sample.

Speaker3:

Right. But we were surprised at the number of participants in the focus groups that

Speaker3:

already had degrees or that maybe they had bachelor's or even had one with a Ph.D.

Speaker3:

But I recall one participant she had she got a degree in engineering at Ohio State, say,

Speaker3:

30 years ago, and she stayed home with her children and her skills became obsolete.

Speaker3:

And she was fearful to go to a baccalaureate institution institution.

Speaker3:

So she enrolled at a community college and felt more comfortable in the classroom.

Speaker3:

And she ended up, I believe, transferring and eventually got a master's in something.

Speaker3:

So it's one way for and Carol, you and I may have talked about this, the program 60 at

Speaker3:

Ohio State. Right.

Speaker3:

And colleges and universities throughout the state have an opportunity for adults age 60

Speaker3:

and older to audit a class on a space available basis with the permission of the

Speaker3:

instructor and to kind of get their feet wet if they haven't been in school for a while

Speaker3:

to see understand how it's different.

Speaker3:

Right. And kind of figure out what are their real interests.

Speaker3:

What if they went back to school?

Speaker3:

What would they like to study before making a financial investment?

Speaker2:

Well, and I think I'm sort of not atypical, but an example of going back.

Speaker2:

So my Ph.D.

Speaker2:

is in sociology and business, which was, you know, unheard of then and now.

Speaker2:

But in working at the university, working on nonprofit boards and then at a nonprofit,

Speaker2:

over time, I realized I needed to understand budgeting and financial reports and all of

Speaker2:

that. So I went back to a community college and took the accounting sequence of courses

Speaker2:

so that I would understand what it was I was looking at, you know, not just what a debit

Speaker2:

in a credit is, but, you know, what's the difference between cash flow and and a budget?

Speaker2:

What where where we were going?

Speaker2:

And again, it was to get the information I needed, not to get a degree,

Speaker1:

You know, can you provide some more information on examples that are successful programs

Speaker1:

in Ohio or maybe programs you've researched and feel would be a good fit in our state?

Speaker3:

Well, adults ages 25 and older are more likely to enroll at a community college than a

Speaker3:

baccalaureate institution, which makes sense.

Speaker3:

And the Ohio Technical Centers, which award?

Speaker3:

They award certificates and diplomas, and by diploma, I mean it might be an R.N.

Speaker3:

diploma registered nurse diploma, and they can sit for the same state board that a

Speaker3:

someone that gets an associate's degree at a community college sits for.

Speaker3:

And they work very closely with employers in the community.

Speaker3:

They're small there.

Speaker3:

They may only have a few hundred students and that the Ohio technical centers are an

Speaker3:

offshoot of joint vocational high schools that were developed in Ohio, I think in the

Speaker3:

60s, roughly 60s.

Speaker3:

And Ohio structure is rather unique in their adult programs.

Speaker3:

I'm not an expert on this, but it's my understanding that somewhere along the way

Speaker3:

somebody realized we have these buildings and all these resources that are not being used

Speaker3:

in the evenings and on weekends.

Speaker3:

Right. So they started these adult programs in essentially the same bases in most cases

Speaker3:

where the high school students go during the day.

Speaker3:

And it's really a good use of facilities and resources.

Speaker3:

And they have all sorts of programs.

Speaker3:

They have welding, they have advanced manufacturing robotics.

Speaker3:

They have a lot of similar programs to community colleges, but they're highly structured.

Speaker3:

They a program might last for a year and the classes might meet four nights a week.

Speaker3:

Right. So they're very structured.

Speaker3:

And some students that doesn't work for some students that want more flexible schedules,

Speaker3:

they go to community colleges.

Speaker3:

But I think one issue that you brought up, Carol, that came up a lot when we were doing

Speaker3:

our focus groups, is that most adult students, they work full or part time.

Speaker3:

They're looking for classes in the evenings, the campus offices for tutoring, for

Speaker3:

advising, for financial aid.

Speaker3:

They're not open in the evenings.

Speaker3:

Right. And that was a complaint we heard from a lot.

Speaker3:

I think a lot of the colleges recognized that and are trying to be more flexible.

Speaker3:

Everything's online now.

Speaker3:

So, well, not everything.

Speaker3:

A lot of things are helpful.

Speaker3:

It helps. It helps a lot.

Speaker3:

Yeah.

Speaker2:

One of the things when I went back to the local community college for my accounting

Speaker2:

courses that I was really surprised at was that I had to go and go to admissions in one

Speaker2:

building, registration in another building, the bookstore in another building.

Speaker2:

So even on the community colleges, the services were siloed and that the idea of putting

Speaker2:

things all together just then didn't exist.

Speaker2:

Another story I was really active with a professional association of continuing educators

Speaker2:

in Ohio, and our goal was to emphasize continuing education, adult education in the state

Speaker2:

from all perspectives.

Speaker2:

So it was private schools, the universities, the public universities, all the the two

Speaker2:

year campuses, proprietary schools.

Speaker2:

And we would work with local legislators and the governor's office to talk about the

Speaker2:

needs of adult students and not the current change to semesters, which just happened in

Speaker2:

the last 15 years or so at all the schools.

Speaker2:

But there was a wave of going to semesters back in the 90s and a lot of the the smaller

Speaker2:

private schools went from quarters to semesters.

Speaker2:

One of the schools, the continuing ad unit, their enrollment dropped by half.

Speaker2:

Their students could not go from a quarter to a semester.

Speaker2:

They needed to they couldn't deal with that length of time on a course because of family

Speaker2:

obligations and all, so that continuing at unit was able to change their the schedules of

Speaker2:

the courses they supported to many masters.

Speaker2:

So they actually went from ten weeks to eight weeks instead of going up to 15 or 16

Speaker2:

weeks. So that big, long explanation.

Speaker2:

So my question, Phyllis's, what can we do to get the state to actually have a plan for

Speaker2:

adult education, to recognize adults in the the the scope of all of the programs that

Speaker2:

they are trying to create and, you know, K through 12 and up through adulthood?

Speaker3:

I think the community colleges are starting to offer some shorter term programs, like

Speaker3:

breaking a semester into two pieces.

Speaker3:

For the reasons you were talking about, Carol, it just fits in better with adult

Speaker3:

students. I think that the work of this adult learner working group I was talking about,

Speaker3:

I think that will help.

Speaker3:

But administrators at each college community college, they have to buy in to the need.

Speaker3:

And if there's not that buy in,

Speaker2:

It's not going to happen. If there's not the funding for it, it's not going to happen

Speaker2:

either. All right.

Speaker1:

Well, and, you know, in coming off that just for a bit, diving in, are we looking at a

Speaker1:

situation right now with covid, the pandemic and university enrollment down?

Speaker1:

A lot of the universities are on teetering, even closing retrenchment, particularly

Speaker2:

The smaller

Speaker1:

Schools. So we're dealing with a situation here that we may not see in a resolution to

Speaker1:

helping this for a little while.

Speaker3:

Correct. And I think that's possible.

Speaker1:

I mean, it's all conjecture.

Speaker3:

Of course it is possible.

Speaker2:

It would be a shame for the state and the educational institutions to not take advantage

Speaker2:

of a new normal.

Speaker2:

Right. Right.

Speaker2:

And so we have seen what we can do.

Speaker2:

In not getting to a store, not getting to be able to buy groceries, what having kids

Speaker2:

working, we're working from home and our kids are learning from home.

Speaker2:

This is an opportunity for many of the schools to say, what can we do to make things

Speaker2:

easier for all students, not just the traditional age students, but adult students?

Speaker1:

Right, right. Exactly.

Speaker2:

Yeah. And particularly that we can we can get past the technology issues.

Speaker2:

It's, again, an educational process that we need to do.

Speaker2:

But we can get people up to speed on technology.

Speaker3:

We can there are still parts of Ohio, the rural areas, rural Appalachian.

Speaker3:

Right. Appalachia that lack broadband.

Speaker3:

Right. Right.

Speaker2:

And there's no issue.

Speaker2:

But, you know, they put through there was an organization in Ohio that was supposed to do

Speaker2:

broadband all over it.

Speaker2:

I'm not sure where that went, but

Speaker3:

I did an interview with someone and an Ohio technical center yesterday that is at a school

Speaker3:

in rural Appalachia.

Speaker3:

And they still have a lot of issues with their students.

Speaker3:

And it was especially bad during the pandemic because the students would go to the

Speaker3:

library, right.

Speaker3:

Libraries to get access to public libraries.

Speaker3:

And they were closed. Right.

Speaker3:

Um, but I do wonder how education will change.

Speaker3:

What lessons were learned during the pandemic that will we'll see education change on a

Speaker3:

more permanent basis.

Speaker3:

And I think business travel will business travel be less because people figured out what

Speaker3:

they can do a lot to resume meetings.

Speaker2:

Right?

Speaker1:

Right. And from what I've heard so far, the predictions are business travel will be down.

Speaker1:

That's what they're predicting.

Speaker1:

And that's where the bulk of money comes from for travel.

Speaker1:

You know, the vacations and personal just don't make up the bulk of what airlines make.

Speaker1:

Right. So they're realizing we don't have to budget this in as much as we do.

Speaker1:

You have to go as many conferences.

Speaker1:

The pick, the key ones you have to be and you better be presenting as well.

Speaker1:

That's right. That's right.

Speaker3:

Well, we don't get reimbursed to go to a conference unless we present.

Speaker3:

I mean, I can't part of the the grants I'm involved in with, I guess dissemination is a

Speaker3:

big component. And we have to submit a dissemination plan with our grant application to

Speaker3:

really hit for four audiences, the practitioners, the academic audience, the general

Speaker3:

public and policymakers.

Speaker3:

So we have to have strategies to like presenting a practitioner conference and those who

Speaker3:

are all virtual last year, they're there will be some in-person conferences, but I

Speaker3:

suspect Miami is not alone, that most universities, I believe, have prohibited travel

Speaker3:

right by their age either.

Speaker3:

But there hasn't they haven't really been any places to go, so.

Speaker1:

Right. Right. Exactly.

Speaker1:

Exactly. Yeah. Well, we've discussed, you know, the barriers there, critical issues for

Speaker1:

minority candidates and older adults.

Speaker1:

But let's expand that conversation to include the issues of women, veterans, immigrants.

Speaker1:

There are a whole lot of categories here that, you know, we haven't really touched upon.

Speaker1:

Are there other issues that need to be addressed for these groups?

Speaker1:

Are the solutions the same or more complex?

Speaker3:

I think they're more complex.

Speaker3:

And let's take women as an example.

Speaker3:

There have been more women that have dropped out of the labor force during the pandemic

Speaker3:

than men, and it's because of their traditional childcare responsibilities.

Speaker3:

Schools were closed, so they were helping either homeschooling or helping their children

Speaker3:

adapt to virtual learning.

Speaker3:

And it's it's kind of worrisome because.

Speaker3:

Because. Leaving the workforce for a period of time, it's harder to get back in and it

Speaker3:

can impact their their retirement security, financial security and retirement.

Speaker3:

And in talking with with community college leaders in Ohio, they saw a drop in

Speaker3:

enrollment, especially from the female students, because for the same reasons, because of

Speaker3:

childcare issues and really need those that were still working to focus more heavily on

Speaker3:

work. Um, so it's going to put women behind it.

Speaker3:

Education, lower skilled.

Speaker3:

Especially those who say only a high school diploma or less, and especially those that

Speaker3:

have racial and ethnic minorities have been especially hard hit during the pandemic and

Speaker3:

women more than men.

Speaker3:

So I think it will take special efforts to re-engage those groups during the pandemic.

Speaker3:

And some of the jobs that I think of in retail and hospitality, they may not come back in

Speaker3:

the same way people are shopping online more.

Speaker3:

Seems like every month or so you hear of a shopping center that's closing ranks to close

Speaker3:

their doors and be torn down.

Speaker3:

The first shopping center I ever shopped at when I was a kid was I grew up, lived in

Speaker3:

rural Ohio when I was young, was Northland.

Speaker3:

It was an open mall and it's not there anymore.

Speaker3:

Right. And there's and I remember there was a shopping center in downtown Columbus.

Speaker3:

Oh, yes. It was torn down.

Speaker2:

All right. So. Right.

Speaker3:

Yeah, it's it's hard to know how how jobs are going to change.

Speaker3:

And then we have automation on top of all that.

Speaker3:

That is going to eliminate jobs or change jobs, I should say, not necessarily eliminate,

Speaker3:

but make them more complex with different skill requirements.

Speaker2:

Phyllis, one of the little side conversations we've had, that that sounds like it could be

Speaker2:

a lot of fun is the concept of age friendly university.

Speaker2:

And you you had mentioned that to me and that you are helping to bring that to Miami.

Speaker2:

So tell us a little bit about what that is and why it's going to help all of our

Speaker2:

listeners in their jobs.

Speaker3:

Well, Miami University and Akron University are the only two age friendly universities in

Speaker3:

Ohio. It the concept started I'm not sure how long ago, but it was originated by, I

Speaker3:

believe, Dublin City College in Ireland.

Speaker3:

And that's who our application went through to become an age friendly university in

Speaker3:

Indiana. Purdue is an age friendly university.

Speaker3:

And you can if you if you look do an Internet search for age friendly universities,

Speaker3:

you'll find some information.

Speaker3:

But it's it's not just about, say, a program 60 that allows older students to enroll at

Speaker3:

no cost. It's really we think of it as being age inclusive, to being friendly to

Speaker3:

individuals of all ages in all aspects of the university.

Speaker3:

And that's that's how we approached it when when scripts worked on this application, it

Speaker3:

was it was quite well received throughout the university.

Speaker3:

And but we like to think of ourselves as an age inclusive to from from opportunities.

Speaker3:

We have an Institute for Learning and Retirement ELR, um, that's that's one thing that we

Speaker3:

offer for adult students.

Speaker3:

And then another aspect is what I was talking about before, the micro credentials that

Speaker3:

Miami University would like to grow.

Speaker3:

But I think I'm hoping that other universities in Ohio will embrace this concept of age

Speaker3:

friendly universities.

Speaker3:

And I think it's. It's it's kind of a mentality of recognizing the value of students of

Speaker3:

all ages, and it to me it goes hand in hand with this attainment objective to try and

Speaker3:

engage, re-engage adults ages 25 to 64 if they don't have a credential to enroll in a

Speaker3:

college or university to get a recognized credential and to if it's more

Speaker3:

embrace of the concept of an age friendly university is more embraced by more

Speaker3:

institutions of higher ed throughout the state.

Speaker3:

I think it will.

Speaker3:

It will help the entire university, the faculty, the students to become more accepting of

Speaker3:

students of all ages.

Speaker3:

One of the things that I'm hoping will happen that is kind of along the same lines is

Speaker3:

recognizing that there is ageism in the classroom, right.

Speaker3:

Not just by students, that of traditional age that might say, you know, what are you

Speaker3:

doing here? You're an old person, but faculty as well, and just the language of ageism.

Speaker3:

So we're hoping to develop some some webinars that will educate

Speaker3:

faculty about working in an age, you know, thinking in terms of age ism being part of the

Speaker3:

diversity, equity and inclusion discussion.

Speaker3:

Right.

Speaker2:

We've had other guests and we've talked about ageism and in particularly in the workplace.

Speaker2:

And and actually, ageism is the only ism that seems to be allowed.

Speaker2:

We talk about other isms and and, you know, everybody throws their hands up and go, oh,

Speaker2:

you can't do that. But ageism, folks that like, well, that's not a big deal, but it

Speaker2:

really is, because that one thing that we do is we do get older and we do pay in taxes.

Speaker2:

So.

Speaker3:

Yeah. And those young students are going to be old someday.

Speaker2:

Exactly.

Speaker1:

Exactly right. Well, you know, before we end, first of all, I want to say thank you for

Speaker1:

and fellow alum being on the podcast will not be the last time we're going to dig more.

Speaker1:

We'll bring more of yours as well, too.

Speaker1:

But yes, we need more money on

Speaker2:

The Otterbein Theater folks vicinities.

Speaker1:

We need more Alem on the podcast.

Speaker1:

But would you like to share some last words of wisdom, some tips before we end the

Speaker1:

podcast?

Speaker3:

I think adults of all ages, middle age, older adults should not underestimate themselves

Speaker3:

in their abilities to go back to school and be successful.

Speaker3:

I think it's helpful to find a mentor, somebody that's in the if you're thinking that you

Speaker3:

might be interested in some health profession, find a mentor that can help you understand

Speaker3:

what's involved. Do an informational interview for four new occupation so you know what's

Speaker3:

really involved and maybe do some job shadowing.

Speaker3:

I have been a lifelong learner myself, as you can tell from the my various degrees or was

Speaker3:

somewhat of a gap between the degrees.

Speaker3:

But I also did a lot of what I think of as continuing education in terms of professional

Speaker3:

credentials, right.

Speaker3:

Certifications, industry recognized certifications that can be valuable in keeping

Speaker3:

keeping a job and recognizing that.

Speaker3:

That skills job requirements change over time.

Speaker3:

The last job I had at Prudential was in Valuation's appraisal and I my background is real

Speaker3:

estate appraisal, but I.

Speaker3:

Went through the process of becoming a chartered financial analyst, which is asset

Speaker3:

values, asset valuation, all types of assets.

Speaker3:

So just doing things like that to.

Speaker3:

To consider how can I keep my skills up to date, how can I make myself attractive to my

Speaker3:

to my employer so they'll keep me.

Speaker3:

And so I can advance.

Speaker3:

So those are just some of the suggestions I have for the people listening to this today.

Speaker3:

Don't underestimate yourself.

Speaker3:

Think how have lofty goals for what you might want to do.

Speaker3:

And just if you're if you don't want to enroll in a baccalaureate program, just step your

Speaker3:

toe in and take a course to see.

Speaker3:

Well, is it interesting?

Speaker2:

Right. And really take take that chance.

Speaker2:

Yes, absolutely.

Speaker2:

And as you said, I appreciate you say don't underestimate your own abilities.

Speaker2:

People have been learning in their jobs, in their volunteer life, in their family life,

Speaker2:

in their church life.

Speaker2:

They've learned a lot of skills.

Speaker2:

So use that as your base and just keep growing with those.

Speaker2:

Yes.

Speaker3:

People don't always know that they're learning.

Speaker3:

Exactly. There's a concept of formal learning, non formal learning and informal learning

Speaker3:

and informal learning is just reading a magazine about current events or reading an

Speaker3:

article about some new invention.

Speaker3:

It can be anything, right?

Speaker2:

Right. And there is a lot of value.

Speaker2:

Employers value the fact that you are willing to look, to learn, to understand and to see

Speaker2:

a bigger picture. So wonderful.

Speaker2:

Thank you, fellas, so much for joining us today.

Speaker2:

We appreciate it. And audience, don't forget, check out the website, show notes and we'll

Speaker2:

have lots of information for you posted there.

Speaker2:

And thanks to everybody at Scripps for allowing us to talk about their wonderful programs

Speaker2:

and have Phyllis with us today.

Speaker2:

Speaker3: Thank you.