This episode is an edited extract from a ‘Beyond Phrenology’ podcast episode where Dr Madhur Mangalam chatted with me about the impacts of research funding challenges on academic culture and individual well-being. The conversation addresses the need for a shift towards more supportive and diverse cultures, the complexities of academic career paths, and the importance of leadership, mentorship and job crafting. We also discuss the implications of international academic norms on individual career choices.

Overview:

[00:00:43] Research Funding Challenges and the Unsustainability of Current Models

[00:04:57] Promoting Emotional Intelligence and Leadership in Academia

[00:15:14] Navigating Career Paths Across Contexts

[00:24:38] On Privileged Positions and Playing the Game

[00:29:02] Wrapping up

[00:30:53] End

Related Links:

Madhur Mangalam, University of Nebraska at Omaha

BeyondPhrenology (YouTube)

BeyondPhrenology (Spotify)

Daniel Goleman – Emotional Intelligence

CAL99 episode: On research identity, meaningful work and funding

TEDx talk from 2016: The craziness of research funding. It costs us all.  

Online Academic Leadership Development Course – sign up by March 7 2024!

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

2

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

3

others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

4

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

5

How do we navigate the

challenges of research funding?

6

While at the same time,

trying to promote a collegial

7

culture, that values wellbeing.

8

That's for the good of science

and scientists and society.

9

This episode is an extract

from a recent conversation.

10

For another academic related

podcast called 'Beyond Phrenology'.

11

The host is Dr.

12

Madhur Mangalam from the

university of Nebraska at Omaha.

13

And the trigger for him contacting me

14

on the craziness of research funding.

15

So prior to this extract, we had

been discussing the challenges

16

around research funding and so on.

17

And here we move more to positioning

the funding issue into a broader

18

context of research culture.

19

Culture and we discuss themes that you

will have heard me talk about . If you're

20

interested in the full episode, I'll

include the links in the show notes.

21

This extract comes from the

second half, starting at around

22

one hour and nine minutes.

23

So, enjoy this and you might

find other episodes in Madhur's

24

podcast of interest as well.

25

Madhur: So right now we are in

a situation where funding levels

26

have not increased overall.

27

Right.

28

Compared to how many researchers we are.

29

Proportionately funding has not increased.

30

Right?

31

So it's kind of a, like a oil well,

which is depleting, and now you have to

32

burn more oil to get that oil from it.

33

Right?

34

So your overall productivity is

going down, number of papers are

35

rising, but definitely not the

productivity in proportionally.

36

Yeah.

37

Right.

38

So do you think this will be

sustainable in the long run?

39

I mean, how far can we

stretch this system?

40

Geri: No, it's not sustainable.

41

And one of my particular concerns is

when it's ultimately not sustainable

42

for doing good science, for solving

the hard problems that we have right

43

now that we were just talking about.

44

Yeah.

45

And it's not sustainable for human beings.

46

One research study, and I can't remember

now who wrote it, but talk about academics

47

having a higher level of stress and

burnout than the general population.

48

And that's just getting worse.

49

Yeah.

50

So we're burning out human beings

and our best brains who we want to be

51

working on these problems are getting

into these really stressed states of

52

on the treadmill where they're not

actually able to produce the good work

53

and they're just producing, you know,

churn outs of proposals and papers.

54

And that's a human impact, which has

a science impact and a societal impact.

55

And yeah, it's not sustainable, which

is why I'm very concerned about not so

56

much the funding, the funding just being,

I don't know, both sort of a driver and

57

a, and a symptom of why we need to shift

to more collegial supportive cultures

58

that value well being, that recognize the

diversity of individuals that recognize,

59

what's needed for people to bring their

best selves to work and to be at their

60

most creative, most collaborative.

61

It needs a different skill set than what

we're training people for right now.

62

Madhur: Peter Thiel has an

interesting quote, right?

63

Uh, where, he talks about,

that we wanted, to have.

64

Flying cars, and we got like a 140

character Twitter, in terms of

65

what we expected the technology will

bring and what it actually brought.

66

So , he also talks about, you know, in

the same kind of conversations that, we

67

have a system, we have set up a system

where we are not selecting scientists,

68

we are selecting good grand writers.

69

Mm.

70

Uh, so, so there's a natural selection.

71

Good game players, you can say.

72

Good game players, yeah.

73

Uh, you know, even from

my personal experience.

74

Yeah.

75

Mm.

76

Exactly.

77

Geri: And we should be selecting

people who are good knowing

78

themselves and what they bring.

79

We should be selecting people who are

good at, empathy and compassion and

80

being able to work with other people.

81

We should be selecting people who have

good leadership skills, who have good

82

interpersonal skills, who are able to

live with uncertainty, you know, because

83

research is fundamentally uncertain.

84

Madhur: But how do we do that?

85

Because those are the things

you cannot quantify, and

86

have a number for that, right?

87

Geri: No, no.

88

And that's one of, it

doesn't fit in a spreadsheet.

89

It doesn't fit in a spreadsheet, yes.

90

Yep.

91

And I know that some people are

starting to include questions in

92

interview protocols for promotions or

job applications that might be about.

93

Tell us about your leadership skills

or, you know, like a collaboration

94

that worked and again, we can game the

system, but I'd, I'd like it part of

95

our training, so that it just becomes

part of the skill set that we have,

96

whether that's starting at school,

teaching people social emotional skills.

97

Emotional intelligence

became very popular.

98

Was it in the 90s that Danny Goleman

made the concept more popular?

99

Oh, I can't remember what, what the

timeframe was, but there's been

100

a lot of work done in the interim,

and I know that there was a lot of

101

work going on by Salovey and various

people before then on this area, but

102

in terms of bringing it into public

discourse, I know that there are many,

103

many programs in schools from primary

school up that are about teaching kids

104

some of these fundamental skills about

how to recognize and manage their own

105

emotions, how to, how to, you know, those

interpersonal skills and how to manage

106

relationships and how to manage conflict.

107

And, there are also a whole lot of skills

needed in terms of just Dealing with

108

how we structure time, how we look after

ourselves as well, and how we value that.

109

I know that I'm, I'm in the middle

of marking some assignments.

110

As I said, I'm, I'm teaching this PhD

course about from surviving to thriving.

111

And one of the things that

I got them to do, we, we.

112

Given them lots of tools and resources

for different aspects around whether

113

it's knowing your values and strengths,

because that helps you make choices in

114

how you do your tasks or what career paths

might look like, at least the qualities,

115

even if not the label, give them lots

of skills about valuing well being and

116

recognizing how Being well isn't a nice

to have, but is a fundamental requirement

117

for being able to do good science.

118

We do things about how to say

no, and manage boundaries so that

119

you can as part of that, how to

build collegial relationships, how

120

to have difficult conversations.

121

And I'm just in the middle of marking the

reflective journals that they had as they

122

tried out various tools and techniques.

123

And.

124

One thing that just keeps coming up

for me is like the students saying

125

again and again, there are so many

things here that are so simple, but

126

they make such a huge difference.

127

Why haven't we heard about these before?

128

And so I'm hoping that some of

our students, who've gone through

129

this will be starting to be part of

the next generation of researchers

130

that will change cultures.

131

Be part of changing academic cultures

to be more collegial and supportive and

132

collaborative to recognize individual

contributions and diversity in a different

133

way beyond just notions of gender and

race, which are very important, but

134

yet diversity is much more than that,

especially for the purposes of science.

135

And we also have a leadership

development course with Austin

136

Rainer from Belfast, Queens, Belfast,

that we run for Informatics Europe.

137

And that's trying to teach academics about

how to do leadership in a different way.

138

Because again, we're never taught

about how to do leadership,

139

how to be leaders, right?

140

You know, we, we may be sent on

training courses about how to manage

141

the budgets in the university system

or how to write a grant proposal.

142

There are many courses on that.

143

Not taught about those.

144

Madhur: Their leadership still is,

uh, their leadership role is like

145

this, you know, like if I have got

this funding, let's say like 500k or a

146

million dollars from the public funds

and I'm hiring a postdocs or PhDs.

147

I am paying your salary, so I will

dictate the terms, right, rather

148

than understanding that you have

been just selected as a facilitator

149

of providing this funding for this

human growth, resource development,

150

rather than you being there, but

you know, they're benefactors.

151

Geri: And there's so much,

again, like there's, it can

152

get complicated because where.

153

Now, if you're on the tenure track

path, your case for promotion or your

154

case for tenure in three, four years

may in large part be dependent upon

155

the outputs of this postdoc or this

PhD student, you know, because that's

156

part of the funding and that's part

of what you're going to be judged on.

157

And so that can create a lot of

pressures for you where it can play

158

out in not like you don't mean to

everyone's got good intentions, I

159

believe, generally but because you're

operating from your own sort of stresses

160

about, am I going to tick all the

boxes or get enough eggs in my basket?

161

You then create a whole lot of pressures

on your students and expectations

162

about working ridiculous hours or

having to be perfect or having to

163

drive more and more papers because we

can always do one more paper or run

164

one more experiment or or whatever and

that's not the way to develop people.

165

It's not the way to get good outputs.

166

Madhur: I agree.

167

So I was kind of fortunate to be in

a different situation during my PhD.

168

So that was a traditional

psychology department where

169

we were funded by a TAship.

170

So we used to teach or, you know, be

a grad assistant with a faculty.

171

So of course the TAship was lower

compared to, you know, typical stipend if

172

somebody, if a faculty has their own fund.

173

But still, it was sustainable.

174

And that allowed us a lot of room

because there was no pressure.

175

You could continue your PhD, you

know, for large number of years.

176

And the PI also did not have

pressure that they need to get this

177

fund to be, to be able to pay you.

178

So that allowed a lot of room for thought,

allowed a lot of room for learning.

179

Yeah.

180

Now, for instance, now I have my first

two PhD students, and my startup includes

181

two years of salary for both of those.

182

Now the thing is I can give them a

lot more room, okay, to explore, but

183

I also understand that it will be

detrimental for them because if we as

184

a group do not produce pilot data, uh,

a good pilot data, and if we are not

185

able to hit a grant within two years.

186

How will I fund their,

you know, the PhD, right?

187

I know, yeah.

188

So, because we do not have that kind

of a TSA program where I am right now.

189

So, uh, that creates like a lot

of pressure and that definitely

190

takes away a lot of flexibility,

which they might have had.

191

Uh, you know, in a, in

a more secure setting.

192

Geri: Mm.

193

Yeah.

194

I know.

195

And this is where I was saying

it's very complex about having

196

people whose jobs depend on you.

197

And this is where we need different

employment models in universities,

198

different funding models that

allow some longer horizons for

199

people, and some continuity.

200

And I, again, I know from a university

admin perspective, that can be challenging

201

because if, if at our university they

converted all of our current postdocs

202

on short term contracts into full time

contracts just to give people some

203

continuity or some confidence for career

paths, that would be unsustainable.

204

They don't have the budget.

205

It also has implications for space,

you know, buildings, you know, like

206

just desks and minimal requirements

of what's needed to, for someone

207

to have a healthy workspace.

208

This is what we were just saying.

209

It's really, it is really complicated.

210

I know that there are no easy solutions.

211

I think we, we do need to recognize

though, the human costs of many

212

of the performance measures and

research assessment measures

213

that have been in place to date.

214

And, are there ways that we can

compromise, do a little bit of in between

215

work and so I'm really, the short term

contracts for postdocs and researchers

216

just breaks my heart because I have

people in our own lab, who, don't have

217

permanent contracts and they're great

people and, you know, they're trying to

218

work hard on projects and helping put

in new proposals to get more funding.

219

And they come up to a time limit

of how long they're allowed

220

to be employed for as well.

221

So there are European laws around that

and on short term funding and they also

222

have, family commitments, so they're not.

223

As flexible as some other academics

to go, okay, my six year, eight year

224

contract as a postdoc period is limited.

225

And I have to leave now so I

can move to another country.

226

A lot of people don't

have that flexibility.

227

And if you're in a town and this

is the main university for this

228

area, they're your job prospects.

229

And, you know, as a pI or a faculty

member, I was also aware of the

230

expertise that we would be losing,

where you'd spent, there'd been a

231

whole lot of time and people had built

up all this expertise and were really

232

valuable members and could just hit

the ground running and do amazing work.

233

But then they hit against some

arbitrary time limit, have to move on.

234

So then you've got to start

again with someone brand new.

235

And I know that's growing, that's

growing capacity and stuff, but

236

yeah, again, at what human cost.

237

Madhur: We do lose a lot

of talent from academics.

238

I mean, I have so many talented

friends who finally left academia

239

because they would have been okay.

240

Had they been given a decent salary,

their expectation was not too high,

241

but a decent salary to live with the

family and the ability to do research.

242

But we do not have that model right now.

243

We have, the only model we have

is like a pyramid PI model.

244

So, so, uh, you know, or you just keep

doing it as a postdoc with a soft salary.

245

Yeah.

246

So, so we need like more common

positions somewhere in between for people

247

who just don't want to do research.

248

Geri: Indeed.

249

At the same time, I also am a big

believer, in the beginning we said

250

about lots of things happen by chance

and you can, you always sort of end up

251

orienting to the same sorts of things

because that's where you're at your

252

best or that's what you love doing

or that's what's important to you.

253

And so I am also really clear in

talking to PhD students and postdocs.

254

really early from the beginning that

academia is not the one and only option.

255

Right.

256

And you can actually be happy.

257

In many different career

paths, they all be different.

258

They always involve trade offs.

259

Every option involves trade

offs of one sort or another.

260

That, you know, like, if you can really

get more clarity about who you are,

261

as we said at the beginning, what you

bring, where you're at your best, what

262

are your strengths, what are your values.

263

You can find ways of playing those out

in multiple different career paths, in

264

different ways, in different contexts,

with different impacts, but you can

265

still wake up in the morning excited

about what you're going to do at work.

266

You know, and a lot of the research

suggests that even if we have, I

267

think some of it points to about 20

or 25 percent of our time at work,

268

enabling us to do this sort of stuff

that lights us up, that's enough

269

to make it, make it work for us.

270

You know, you talked

about the bad PhD earlier.

271

Madhur: No, I agree with you.

272

I mean, uh, just because you did

not continue, that doesn't mean

273

that doesn't make you a sellout or

like, uh, you know, not a capable

274

PhD or not capable academicians.

275

Academic success has a lot to it than

just being like a good researcher.

276

Geri: Yeah.

277

I, one of the things I'm also encouraged

by, in some countries, you know, some

278

institutions is recognizing different

sorts of career paths within academia

279

that that some people Brilliant

researchers and really not very good

280

in front of the classroom as teachers.

281

Other people are really good

mentors, facilitators, supporting

282

students and growing people.

283

I work with a colleague who's the

most brilliant teacher, he, you know,

284

innovative, excited about what he's

teaching, gets students enthusiastic,

285

does all sorts of interesting things

in the classroom that I would never be

286

able to do, it's just not my not my

skill set and, but not necessarily,

287

you know, brilliant researcher.

288

But shouldn't be, and should be

recognized and rewarded and have a

289

promotion path, a career path that

rewards excellence in teaching or

290

excellence in research or excellence

in research management or, whatever.

291

And there are things happening where

that's starting to be accepted more.

292

Madhur: Right.

293

So do you think, uh, this, like,

let's say that, you know, assume,

294

let's be optimistic and, assume

that things will change for good.

295

For the system to become more

sustainable and also to enrich

296

more early career searchers.

297

Would it be within the same funding

agencies, shifting the mandates

298

or would it be, or do we actually

need interventions where we like

299

at the congressional level that we

have new bodies with a completely

300

different mandate and slowly.

301

You know, kind of depleting these

institutions existing on the resources and

302

shifting those resources to the new model.

303

So will the change be from the inside

or will it be a slow demolishment

304

of the current establishment?

305

Geri: And like, this is where it's a

really complex space because I, if I just

306

bring it back to my own situation, so

It's important to me to say to students,

307

you know, like, we don't expect you to

work weekends or after hours, we want

308

you to have a life, there's more to life

than work, like these are a reasonable

309

number of publications to aim for.

310

So we try to create some sense of balance

because we know that if we can create

311

the conditions where people are well and

healthy and have a balanced life, well

312

not balanced because there's no such

thing as balance, but have different

313

aspects in their life when they come

to work, they will be, you know, all

314

of the research is clear that they

will be more creative, better problem

315

solvers, better collaborators and so on.

316

And so they're likely

to produce good outputs.

317

I'm saying to people this is good enough.

318

Like it's really good enough.

319

You're doing great.

320

And then they go for, they want to go, I'm

going to pick on the U S because I think

321

it's, there's a particular culture there.

322

Now in our area, sometimes you even

need publications at key top quality

323

venues to even get into a PhD program.

324

Madhur: Oh, so, uh, literally

like this is actually the reality.

325

I mean, you can't get a PhD, scholarship

or, or entry to the graduate program

326

if you don't have publications.

327

And I don't blame that because when

I applied to that school, I had eight

328

publications, like during my master's

and two years of work after my master's.

329

So if I have like a two year

internship after my master's

330

that I published and I had eight.

331

And you have a student, you know,

maybe bright, maybe brighter, with

332

no output, faculty is inclined

to take those who actually have.

333

Publications.

334

Geri: I know.

335

And I know that that's

the culture in the U.

336

S.

337

And so if we're working in a different

culture and we have students coming

338

through bachelor's and master's

programs, but there's nowhere

339

near the emphasis on publications.

340

You know, the occasional master's

student, bachelor's student may get

341

a publication, especially if they

happen to be working on a project.

342

that the supervisors set up or some other

funded project that they contributed to.

343

But it's not normal.

344

Like most master's students, good master's

students won't have a publication.

345

So they come out of that system and

then they go into a PhD program.

346

If they decide they want to go to the

US, they're not going to be competitive.

347

If I've got people coming out of PhD

where we, you know, like the, some of

348

the rules say, some institutions say

like three good quality publications

349

is around what we expect, but you

know that they want to go to the U.

350

S.

351

for a postdoc and to be competitive

there for a postdoc, anyone else

352

in the pool will have 12, 14, and

then 15, it becomes this arms race.

353

Madhur: I had about 25 plus, around 28

when I was, when I graduated with a PhD.

354

And really, even then it was very

hard for me to find a postdoc.

355

It was not everyone took it.

356

I had very few options even after that.

357

Geri: I can try to change

the culture locally and say.

358

You know, like you've got enough,

you're going to burn out if you just

359

keep working every weekend to get yet

another paper, yet another paper, and

360

they're not going to be of good quality.

361

And that's why I'm hoping that

the push for quality over quantity

362

might stop some of that arms race.

363

But we're operating in an

international culture, so I can do

364

that in my own group and it may not

fit the rhetoric of the faculty.

365

So the faculty may have stronger

requirements, you know, and it may

366

not fit the rhetoric of what the

national body that government is

367

putting in place and saying to the

universities they want to evaluate their

368

performance on in order to get the next

five year funding for their budgets.

369

And it may not fit with international

context, if people want to be

370

mobile, because there's a lot of

mobility in the academic sector.

371

So I think some of these initiatives

like DORA, the San Francisco Agreement,

372

like COARA at the European level, may be

starting to change, but it's got to be,

373

it's got to be an international change.

374

And that means multiple levels, you know,

like governmental levels, funding agency

375

levels, university levels, faculty levels,

group levels, individual supervisors.

376

I

377

Madhur: mean, I mean, there is some,

some stuff, for instance, when we

378

apply an NIH grant and you apply for an

NIH grant, it allows you to put only

379

four different areas of contribution,

four or five, and each of those,

380

you can list only four publications.

381

So basically you cannot list

more than 20 publications in

382

the whole biosketch, right?

383

So that kind of controls for,

because then you can look at,

384

are, are, are themes consistent?

385

You know, is it the similar kind

of work or is it just a number of

386

publications which are, you know, so

likewise in grad applications, right?

387

In grant applications we can have

like, you know, in your CV you

388

actually fill in the CV rather than

actually having your own format.

389

And you have like, like, you know,

name your two best publications.

390

And you will be evaluated on those two

best publications and not at that level,

391

for a master's student and not on like

whether you publish like 10, you're

392

mostly like co authored with someone.

393

Geri: That's encouraging.

394

And it would be really good if faculties

doing searches for employing people.

395

Yeah.

396

Did a similar thing.

397

Madhur: Uh, but, uh, for

a person who is like.

398

You know, early career, the only

option that person has is to just

399

go with whatever the system asks.

400

I know.

401

And just give the deliverables, right?

402

Deliverables.

403

Yeah.

404

So, so, so where do you stand on that?

405

Geri: I'm, I'm acutely aware of the

privilege position that I'm in to

406

be able to speak about these things.

407

I'm also acutely aware of the privilege

that I've had in my career trajectory

408

that I have been, I guess, ahead of the

wave of a lot of these pressures, where

409

I was never, I never felt personally

driven by these sorts of pressures.

410

If I was driven, it was more

by my own wanting, my own

411

criteria that I put on myself.

412

And I, that's what I was saying before

about, you know, like, I'm conscious that

413

I might say to a student, you're good

enough, you've done enough, it's good

414

work, you know, you're allowed to have

other things in your life beyond work.

415

And I know that I might not be doing them

a favour in setting them up for different

416

career paths if They want to go to the U.

417

S.

418

and, and everyone else

has got 28 publications.

419

So for me, it's about helping them

understand what the trade offs are.

420

And it can be that you choose to

play the game now, in order to

421

get to there and then be part of

trying to change the dialogue.

422

I think that people who are more

senior in their careers have a real

423

responsibility to step up and be part

of the conversation and just call out

424

some of these practices and some of

the gaming practices and, and arguing

425

for different ways of, of engaging,

running their labs in different ways.

426

I don't know, it's just.

427

It's not about all these

brownie points that we get.

428

It's not what's important in life.

429

And the usual thing of when you get to

your deathbed, are you going to, you're

430

going to be saying, Oh, if only I had

have got that journal paper published,

431

you're not going to be saying that.

432

And how do we just keep it in perspective?

433

And how do we give people a decent living,

that allows them to make good choices?

434

So I think that senior

people got a responsibility.

435

I think in.

436

Mentoring and, and supporting younger

people, making clear the values that

437

you hold as important, helping them

navigate and understand the trade offs.

438

And in the middle of that, I'm a big

believer in this concept of job crafting,

439

which I sort of alluded to before,

which is, if you are having to play the

440

game, because this is where you're at,

and you recognize that, you know, the

441

change that we want to see is going to be

further on beyond when you're going to be

442

needing to have your next career steps.

443

Are there ways of making more intelligent

choices where you can still play the

444

game, but you're making choices that are

much more aligned with your own values?

445

And what's important to you where

you're making choices on research

446

topics or projects, connect to your

strengths, connect to your values and

447

work on things that you care about.

448

Because you can still get the

outputs, but they'll be outputs

449

that you'll be prouder of.

450

So you can still aim to play the

game, but can we find ways to shape

451

and craft our research identities?

452

Again, I just did a podcast on this.

453

The last one I put out was about trying

to navigate that tension of research

454

identities and how to play the game.

455

While still being true to who we are, and

part of that is finding out about who we

456

are, like, what is my research identity?

457

And how do I step into that?

458

And being clear about the compromises

that I'm prepared to make right now.

459

As we've said, everything's

a complex space.

460

And so I'm trying to be part of

changing the conversation and

461

the culture in the small spheres

of influence that I might have.

462

And I, you know, yeah, I always say

to people what are the small things we

463

can all do to be part of that change.

464

We can all be part of changing

academic life for the better.

465

Madhur: Yes, I hope so too.

466

So thank you, Professor Fitzpatrick,

have a great, day ahead and, we

467

look forward to having you, once

again, when we have more cases.

468

Geri: And that was an edited extract

from the interview with Madhur

469

Mangalam that he did with me for

his Beyond Phrenology podcast.

470

I made mention about our academic

leadership development courses.

471

And if you're interested in

being part of that, And you are

472

listening before March seven.

473

That's March 7th, 2024.

474

You might be interested in signing

up for the next iteration of the

475

online academic leadership development

course that Austen Rainer and I

476

co-facilitate for Informatics Europe.

477

It'll be starting later in March and I'll

put a link to this in the show notes.

478

We put an emphasis on the course in

developing the social and emotional

479

skills that are a key part of being

a good academic leader developing

480

people and creating collegial cultures.

481

So join us in being part of

creating the change we want to see.

482

.

You can find the summary notes, a transcript and related

483

links for this podcast on www.

484

changingacademiclife.

485

com.

486

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

487

Spotify and Google Podcasts.

488

And you can follow

ChangeAcadLife on Twitter.

489

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

490

we can do academia differently.

491

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

492

And if something connected with

you, please consider sharing this

493

podcast with your colleagues.

494

Together, we can make change happen.