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Josh Haigh, Scally Drag (Dancing Class)

Dancing Class: Moving Stories of Levelling up Episode 16 • 3rd August 2026 • Beckett Talks • Leeds Beckett University

Dancing Class, Josh Haigh, Scally Drag

Speaker Hi, I'm Laura. Hi, I'm Rachel and this is the Dancing Class podcast made possible by the British Academy, Leverhulme Small Research Grant Fund, and Leeds Beckett University. In this series, we invite dance industry professionals from working class backgrounds in the UK to talk about their experience of dance education and their careers. We're interested in discussing the ways in which dance can be a vehicle for class mobility in the UK, and contribute to discourses around levelling up. This series also researches the role of dance as a catalyst for social and economic progress. Some of our discussions take place while dancing and are recorded with spatial sound. This creates an immersive effect and the best listening experiences via the use of headphones. These recordings will be labelled as binaural. We hope that you enjoy the series. Thanks for tuning in. Joshua Haigh. Yes. Josh, lovely to have you. Thank you. Thanks for joining us. Yeah, I'm happy to be here. Yeah. Welcome back to Leeds. I know. Yes. Back home. Yeah. Yeah. Um so could you start Josh, just by telling us how you might, describe the practice that you do now? Yeah. Um, so currently I would say I'm a freelance dance artist and cabaret performer. I work a lot in nightlife, like queer nightlife spaces. And then I'm also quite interested in making my own work and choreographing my own stuff. Great. And when you say choreographing your own stuff, what kind of would you say that's in contemporary dance or. Yeah, I'd say, I mean, you don't have to define it, but contemporary dance that kind of steals from all kinds of dance and kind of makes that into something new and, well, not something new. Something steals and makes it into something new. Appropriation. Yeah. Yeah. Appropriates all styles. Yeah. Um, just. Yeah. Contemporary dance. Yeah. But kind of inspired by the world around you. Yeah. And is it solo practice predominantly or, I mean, we know from your work that you did as a student with us here at Leeds Beckett. So I've just dropped that out for the listeners and um, but you did make some really great. Yeah, group work that you weren't in yourself as well. I mean, I think especially, I think whilst I was here and I kind of had the access to studio space and other dancers and stuff, I was yeah, I was more interested in making that kind of work. Yeah. I think since I've graduated and like maybe for like the past couple of years, it's been more so like solo work and creating things. Yeah. Individually, just cause that's what I've had access to. Yeah. So that's quite a pragmatic decision as well. Yeah, totally. Doing, doing what I can do. You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. So take us take us back to where you're from. I'm from Rochdale. Yeah. Lisa Stansfield come on. Been around the world and I. I,I Exactly. Yeah. Brilliant. And what was your journey into dance? Yeah. Where did you start dancing? I think I was probably like fifteen when I started dancing. I never it was in GCSE dance. So at school. Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't do any dance before that. Right, right. And then I think when I was like thirteen, maybe I came out as gay and then we were choosing GCSEs and I was like, well, I'm gay, so I may as well do dance. So that was quite it was quite a leap of faith. Yeah. I think because at that point I was like, I'm out now. Like, I'm not scared. Like, and I think for me, it was a big thing of like, especially at that point, like dance and sexuality has always been a. How did you know it was a gay thing? Do you think? I think for me, dance during that time was like a safe space in. Like it was in a room full of women. Yeah. It was an industry that seemed quite safe for gay men. Mhm. I was thinking about this this morning, and, like, I think. How do you know? How did you know at that age, though? Just through like pop culture, music videos, like what was on the TV at the time, Drag Race, RuPaul's Drag Race was on. Yeah, I think the media that I was like watching during that point in my life really linked to the arts and like dance to a safe space for gay men. Yeah. So I think as I was coming out, I was like, well, of course I'm gonna kind of do that to kind of find that safety in a time where I was maybe feeling a bit. Ohoooo, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And we're there others who were doing dance at the same time with you going through the same kind of personal social changes? So there was there was a couple of other boys in school, but they were both straight men. I think they just chose it for doing the dance with you. Yeah. They were, they were doing GCSE dance, but they, they were more street dancers and like hip hop kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. Um, and then in sixth form, I was also the only boy doing it. Right. Um, so what, what changed when you started dance at GCSE in order for you to progress to do it at sixth form. I think I just really enjoyed it to be honest. Like I, I think because I'd not done it before, I'd never really thought of it. Like I didn't dance at all as a kid or anything like that. Not even in primary school? No. Gosh, no. Wow. And what about socially, like, family parties and things like that? Was there any sort of social dance in your family or, not other than, like, the Cha Cha Slide. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's not underestimate the Cha Cha Slide. Yeah. Thank you very much. Very much. Yeah. Bit of Agadoo. Yeah yeah. Um, but yeah, I think when I started doing, I think as well, I always, it's been the same like in every kind of dance education thing I've done. I've always felt very, um, the kind of women teachers that I've had have always been a bit of like a safe space for me in, in the same sense as well. Yeah. And like, especially like my teacher in school, my teacher in sixth form, like they were really great for me and just making me feel so comfortable and like, did they feel, did it, could you call them champions? Yeah. Did they sort of. Yeah, I think yeah. Support you in that way. Yeah. And encourage you. Yeah. And I think because I didn't necessarily in school feel so confident, like academically. It was when I was doing like these creative things such as dance or like fine art like that. And the teachers were like, yeah, like, this is great. It like, really like boosted me up and like, made me feel like I might not be able to do the academic stuff, but I'm gonna like smash this. Amazing. So yeah, it just. And here you are with an MA. Yeah. Quite frankly. Yeah, yeah. Um, but I'm interested. You talked about this idea of like dance going it's a safe space. Where was it not safe? Do you see what I mean? What what was that? Opposition? I think like, I think it was just like, I feel like when the time I was in school, it wasn't that necessarily like anyone was homophobic or anything like that. But everyone, we're all teenagers. So yeah, everyone, everyone's a bit nasty when they're a teenager. Everyone's going through a lot of changes. Everyone's a bit rude. Yeah. Um, but I think for me, it was, I never necessarily felt like comfortable with the lads or like any of that kind of thing. And like those kind of friendships felt inaccessible to me. So like sports and stuff that was also just as, athletic as dance. Yeah. It was like the same kind of athletic, kind of engagement with the body and stuff like that. But the like crowd didn't feel, I didn't feel comfortable in kind of exploring it in that kind of way. Mhm. Right. Um, but in PE, I had my one friend Jack, who's like, he's my longest friend. We've been friends for like thirteen years now since like year seven. And it was just me and him and then all the other boys in PE, and we were in the top set and we'd always get picked last oh, but, but we'd always be together, so we weren't bothered. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And we just, all the boys would go and play football and we'd be like, we're not doing it. We're not, we're not doing it. And then we'd just go and run around the field instead. And we're still friends to this day. That's lovely. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about your family background, your background. Yeah, yeah. So I've got my mum, my dad, three sisters. Um, and that was it like growing up and obviously living in Rochdale. Mhm. Um dad was at the time, like when I was a kid, a truck driver, mum. My mum wasn't working. They both got different jobs now. Mhm. Um but yeah, quite a close family. Yeah. Um, but then at the same time, like there's been different points where we've been all been at different like, stages and like maybe distanced and then maybe come back together and like, very busy household, like always a busy household, busy small house. Yeah. Yeah. Um, even obviously I moved back yesterday to Leeds, but for the past year I've been living with my mum, my dad, me, my little sister, my older sister, her husband, a toddler and two dogs. Wow. No wonder you want to come back. Yeah. Yeah. Get me out of here. So it's always been a busy, um, a lot. A lot of energy. Always been a loud space. Yeah. Yeah. And did you grow up, would you say, uh, would you call it a working class area in Rochdale? Yeah, a hundred percent. And and why, how would you define that? I think the Rochdale just feels. I think the media portrays Rochdale as extremely working class and I think if you're from Rochdale you kind of um, If you say you're from Rochdale, everyone I tell I'm from Rochdale, Urgh, you're from Rochdale. I'm sure there's some really posh areas. Yeah there is, it's really green. It's really like Norden. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All gorgeous areas. Um, but like kind of where I live, it's kind of just maybe like the street in the area I live on is quite okay, but like the surrounding areas are just quite underfunded. Okay. There isn't, there's not, A lot of social housing, would you say? Yeah. Okay. 100% in Rochdale. Yeah. Yeah. Um there's not really any arts there. There is an arts community in Rochdale but it's extremely small. Okay. It's I'd say there's there was points where you. I would have felt I feel unsafe or. I used to feel unsafe walking around certain places. Oh, really? In Rochdale? Yeah. Gosh. Yeah. Tell us about that. Just because there's a lot there's a lot of like, gang stuff like in like the the area I live in Newbold especially. Maybe not so much now, but like ten years ago, there was a lot of like violence going on and stuff like that. And, um, it's calmed down a lot now, but I think there was like, I think just the perception of Rochdale kind of feeds into what happens there, especially with like when the Three Girls thing came out with the, um, oh the the. Maxine Peake yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The grooming. That's most people's perception of Rochdale. Yeah. so yeah, I think people look at it as shit Um, and then I think there also are parts of it that are just really shit. Yeah. Because I think because of poverty? Yeah. Yeah. Because everyone's just skint. Everyone's proper skint. Yeah. And then I feel like everyone's kind of working to not be skint. Yes. Yeah. And do you feel like that's been consistent in all the time you've lived in Rochdale? Or has it changed or. I guess maybe what I mean is were you conscious of that also when you were a younger person. Mhm. So I think I. So in primary school, um, I had a friend who like, I spent a lot of time with like one of my best friends who was really well off, like really, really well off. Yeah, yeah. So I think from like such a young age, like year two, you had a comparison. Yeah. And visiting their house and knowing what holidays they went on, knowing the. Yeah, yeah. And like going staying at their house when like I needed to and when my parents couldn't, like if my mum was in a hospital or something. Yeah, I'd be going, staying there. So I think from such a young age I had that awareness of what that comparison. Yeah. And then I think, yeah. And then I think also with um, I used to beg to go around to his house. I used to be like, please, can I come for a sleepover? Please? Can I come for a sleepover? Did you just, like, love his toys? Yeah, because he lived in this gorgeous, like, countryside house. Yeah. Um, and like, he was like, we were really good friends as well. Like I weren't just sponging off. Um, but I remember being like, please let me come and sleep over. But because I was like, I got there and I was like, this is the life. You were in a busy house at home, like you say, like a bit crowded. And yeah, and it was just, it was a nice, it was a nice break from a bit of respite. Respite. You need to send him this podcast. Oh no I'll be well embarrassed. You're not still knocking on the door going, please, can I have a sleepover? No, I'm too embarrassed. Oh, It was similar for me, actually, a little bit at high school, at secondary school. My best friend was from a far wealthier family. And she, you know, her family home was, a three hundred year old stone cottage. Yeah, yeah. You know, out in the outskirts of Oldham, like in the countryside, Saddleworth. And it was the first time I ever had an avocado was at her place. Oh, wow. You were doing well. Yeah. Major things like that, you know, and yeah, I don't think I quite begged as much as you did Josh to go there, but. No, but we we spent a lot of time with each other. We were just really close friends. Yeah. Yeah, it was good. And did you meet at school? Yes. Yeah. And we were kind of like a bit, um. I think we found each other. We were, funnily enough, in different forms, like totally different forms, but I, I was getting into dance, and she was getting into modelling, which was a bit different. And I feel like. So we weren't in a. You were on the margin. We weren't with the top girls. Yeah. Yeah. We were slightly I think not cool enough, but that made us really cool in a way. Yeah. I mean dancing. Yeah yeah yeah. I mean, she was gorgeous and I was just like. But we've talked about this before, you and I, because I think when I was at secondary school in particular, no one wanted to give me any time of day, really. I had like a really nice close group of friends. There were six of us, right, And who were like, we were friendly and we were, you know, people just used to be like, oh, you're just such a swot. Like, I was just like, like, no one was interested because I was just the girl who did my homework and worked really hard and got good grades. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And until I did GCSE dance and people were like, oh, you're quite good at dance, aren't you? Yeah. You know, and it was suddenly like, uh, I absolutely like my social status at school. Yeah. Shifted, shifted because I was doing dance with the people who'd chosen it because they weren't getting good grades in English or maths. And it's not like I don't mean to be, you know, I want to be very democratic about this. I'm not just saying it was people who weren't bright, but there was a much more diverse range. If you think I'm going from like the top set in English to go into dance where people from whatever set are doing dance because it's not discriminating, it's not going, you've got to be getting A's in English to be in dance. So, um, it was kind of a huge shift for me where the people I was doing GCSE dance with were like, oh, but you're good at this. So actually I gained a bit more, um, social like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, just when you're both talking about going to your mate's house, who lives in the countryside and you've got, like, it feels like respite. Yeah. And you having a similar situation is that actually this is formed through school and its state school. Yes. And I think that's what's that's also important to acknowledge here is that you're in a space where you've got people coming from lots of different backgrounds who actually have the opportunity to meet one another and spend time together and build friendships, regardless of their socioeconomic status. Yeah. And, and their cultural kind of capital. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I don't know when you were like growing up, did you perhaps feel as though you were pretending not to be poor? Yeah. Always. Because that because I think yeah. I think that like that really speaks to like my um because the house that we live in, like the house that's my house now, like my parents got a mortgage for it and everything. Yeah. But then lost it after like a couple of years. So they've been renting it ever since. Gosh. Okay. But it like somewhat feels like I think that's I kind of see that as like a bit of a metaphor for like on the outside it looks nice, but then you come inside and like, it's, um, I think I felt like, quite like I can't let nobody know I'm poor. I can't let nobody know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For a lot of being in school and stuff like that. It's interesting. Yeah. What, what kind of things do you think you would, how did you adopt a behavior that. Or how did you try and deceive people that you weren't poor? I don't know, just like being like, my house has got three stories. Yeah, yeah, I live in a mansion. No, but just like accentuating the good parts. But then not saying any of the like, yeah, yeah, the tricksy stuff. I mean, it's really interesting because like, I, I was sort of like a bit ashamed of where we lived in the house and because my mum really was really busy working and so the house was a bit of a mess or a bit of a tip most often. Yes. but I really wanted my friends to come and meet my mum and my and my family because I loved them. And I thought, you know, she was this very gregarious Catalan woman who was an amazing cook. So I always wanted to show off that side of my loving, gregarious family with fabulous food. But then I was sort of always like, oh shit, when do I. I found it hard to choose the moment to tell my friend who was coming for a sleepover, that we have an outside toilet. Yeah. And that was like the real pivot point of shame for me. It's really interesting that really like, no, it's at the bottom of the yard. And that was like often a real, signifier of that as well. yeah, I mean, it changed a bit because when I was in secondary school, we got like a grant off Oldham Council to put a bathroom in like a proper bathroom. And that changed it a wee bit. But it was. I lived in a really poor area. There was no doubt about it. And I think I think this has come up before, but I remember like, I'd just get a taxi or whatever, even a taxi driver to drop me on the main road and I'd walk around. Really? Yeah, I wouldn't. Yeah. And friends who were dropping me home. You can just drop me here. Just drop me on the corner. Oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, just for that reason that. Yeah. Did not want people to see that. Yeah. And also, also I think it comes with where money gets prioritised because I think we were like, you know, we'd live with until things broke. I remember for years we used to have to wedge a big ten litre bottle of water against the oven. So, so that it would shut, so that when you cook the food and we did that, I can't even it felt like we did that for about ten years. But it's just like, but we, you know, we went on a holiday on a coach to Spain because my dad was a milkman and he, you know, he wanted a holiday. And it was like the money goes on the holiday. We can live with a half working oven. Yeah. You know, the priorities were different. It was like, we always had good. We always had new school uniform. Yeah. Um, it was all again, that sort of like outwardly presenting. Like, you look like you're from a good family. Yeah. You know, you're well put together. Yeah. you've got ironed clothes. Absolutely. Um, there was an emphasis there. And you polish your shoes. Yeah. Iron your clothes. You look good. You look. Turned out you look clean. Yeah, absolutely. But it's interesting. I got a shower when I was fourteen. That was the best day of my life. Oh, I bet we got a shower put in. And it was just, like, the best thing ever. Yeah. So talking about school and we're talking about sixth form. Can I just ask one more thing though, in terms of did you know you were working class then, or is that a term that, you know, like a political term you learnt later on? I think I just thought I was poor. Yeah. Right. And that's what I for me too. Yeah What about you? Well, I just knew that I didn't have what other people had. Yeah. And like the jobs my mum and dad did. Yes. You know, I remember someone saying to me, actually, this was when I was at university, she said to me, what? Oh, what does your mum do? And I said, oh, she works in a call centre. I said, but she's a union rep. And she went to me. Oh, that's interesting that you said that. And she immediately picked up on the fact that I was like, it was the like, she's not got a very good job, you know, like, but, you know, but actually it was full time job that paid the bills. But I was like, and I was, I was like quite cross with myself actually for being like, oh, but she's a union rep. Like, because somehow that maybe sounds more important. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think it comes from that whole thing of growing up and thinking, my mum, I just saw my mum and dad working really hard all the time. And like, my mum and dad weren't picking me up from school. Yeah. Um, and things like that. And my mum used to put me on the bus outside where I lived when I was eight. Um. Yeah. And I'd get the bus and her and her friend used to check that I got off the bus and got into primary school because my mum had to go to work, you know, and, and, my mum would get home on a Thursday night and then go collecting the money, the milk money with my dad. Wow. So like they were just always. And my dad worked the weekend. Yeah. So they were just always working really hard. And that meant that we did have a nice summer holiday. Yeah. Like most years. But we weren't ever like. And we in the summer we used to go we used to go out for picnics and things like that. Maybe on a Sunday. Yeah. But we, you know, it was like life was a hustle, you know. We weren't going on family walks and going out for, you know, I don't know how to explain it, but I think there's something about recognising that the level of life was quite different. Yeah, I think there's also an idea of what family social time is meant to be. Yeah. Yeah. What? Um, we're going on a bike ride. Yeah. I don't think I ever went on a family bike ride, but then people are off Center Parcs every weekend, and I'm, well, jel, you know. Um, But then you were in when you went to school, when you went to school and you were doing GCSE dance, was everybody poor or was it, was it really mixed? Rochdale's massive. Yeah. Right. It's I think I looked it up the other day. I think it's like two hundred and eighty thousand people in Rochdale. Okay. It's quite similar to Oldham really. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so there is like where I went to school in Milnrow. Yeah. That's like um a village like almost a village. Yeah. Um whereas then where I lived was close to like the town centre and like, yeah, as you get closer to the town centre, like the areas get a bit more poor. Yeah. Um, but then outwardly it's more like countrysidey villagey. Like Oldham actually. Yeah yeah yeah. Incredible poverty and incredible wealth. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So I think in that school as well, because it was, I think a couple of years before it had been made like an academy, right? So everyone in the area wanted to go there. Yeah, yeah. And it, it also was like one of the only non-Catholic schools in the area as well. Right. Um, so like a lot of, a lot of people from my primary school went to the Catholic school, which was in Oldham actually. Oh, right. Saint Cuthberts. Okay. So then that I think that like there was just like people from many different back. There was a big um Muslim population at school. Yeah. A real mix of people. Mhm. But, um, everyone, I think in terms of like wealth, it was also very mixed. Like, yeah, it wasn't like everyone was skint. It was like everyone was pretending to be rich. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, so then when you decided to go to university, what were your like points of reference for that? Had anyone in your family been to university before? Um, my mum went to uni to do, uh, agriculture, but because, because she was with my dad and he was a farmer. So yeah, so she did that at uni. And then to be fair, when we were kids, she did like some something in psychology as well. Um, but she didn't, she didn't really do anything with it. She does, she uses her psychology thing now because she now works for a charity for like mums with postpartum depression. Oh, wow. Which is really amazing. Yeah, yeah. But before, other than that, like no one in like my immediate family had been to uni or anything, right? Especially not for like the arts. No. Right. And so how, how was that a decision to make, so I had like in sixth form, um, like my friend group was all in the year above. Right. So we all met in Chicago. It's on YouTube if you want. Great. What part did you play? I was, um, a premium dancer me. Oh Um, but that's interesting. So why didn't you pursue, like, a musical theatre higher education, because I can't sing for shit! There we go. Yeah. Um, so I met all them in my first year of sixth form, and they were all in the year above. Right. And then one of my best friends now Sujata, she moved to Leeds for uni. So in my second year of sixth form I was visiting her and checking out Leeds. Yeah. And I kind of knew Leeds. It was also like it was when we were like in and out of lockdown a lot. So every time lockdown had opened, I'd like rush to Leeds to like have some social time and see her. So I think because like my best friends had gone, I kind of knew what it was going to be like. And I was like, I want to like, have that. Yeah. And have that. Yeah. Um, just because it had been lockdown as well. So it had been so much time like. So was that was sat in the house? Was the, uh, second year of FE of sixth form college in full lockdown? I think the March of that year we went into the first lockdown. Right? Okay. Right. So like from then and and then I went to uni in the September. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And then we were still in lockdown till like we were in the like, do you remember those days of being in the squares, the cubes in at Headingley? So just going back to that decision to go to university and study dance, did you have a sense of like, this is what I want to do. Like I'm not, I'm not going to do musical theatre because I can't sing. Yeah, but this is the life I want. Like, what was that? Oh, I knew I wanted to do something to do with art. I was either gonna do fine art at uni or. Okay. Or dance. Yeah. Um, but I was like, because they were like my two like, yeah, really loved because in sixth form I did fine art, dance and sociology. Oh, really? Yeah. You see, I did dance and fine art at the same college. Yeah. Did you? Yeah. My two strongest. We had the same dance teacher. Yeah. Yeah. Did you do Sociology as well? I didn't, I did English. Okay. Language and literature. And um, I did performing arts for a year. Actually. I did an AS level. Yeah, I did A.S. Philosophy and I did A.S. Geography. Do you know why I did Geography? This needs to go on tape. Yeah, because the careers advisor at school said, don't put all your eggs in one basket. And so I decided to do. I did English dance arts and geography. And after a year I dropped out of geography and did a years A.S. Level in Performing Arts instead. Crikey. Wowzer. Yeah. So you you had Sharon Bell. I had Sharon Bell as my dance teacher. Yeah. What was that like? Was she great? She was. She was great, the best person in the world. Oh, yeah. Wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. Absolutely. And so encouraging of. Yeah. Yeah. Of, uh, an education in dance. Those people at that level are so important, aren't they? They're like critical. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, it's really interesting, I think, because there's, there were so many of us because I had a group of friends in the year above as well, who all, I think most of that year group went to study dance at university. Yeah, right. And three of us were at Surrey. Right. Um, but a real sense of, um, I guess like equal value in all of the subjects at that sixth form I felt. Yeah for sure. I think it's a great Sixth Form. Yeah. I really enjoyed my time, I think because as well, I'd come from school in Rochdale. I went to that Sixth Form. I didn't know anyone. Yeah. So I was like, it took and it like made. So I had to make friends basically. And the friend group I made there. I like still my best friends to this day. Wow. That's amazing. Yeah, yeah. So why did you choose dance with us? Well Um, I mean, it's quite, it's quite timely that we're doing this. Yeah. Because we're just we've just completed the last year of undergraduate dance. Yeah. And it's gone, and GCSE dance course as well. Has it? Yeah. No way. Really. Okay. So it's I'm a bad luck charm. No it's not. It's a whole heap of other things that we need to. Yeah, it really is. Speak about on this podcast. Yeah. Did you audition for Northern School of Contemporary dance? I got offered a foundation. Did you. Okay. Well, I went to the I auditioned there, yeah. And I was like. Josh swears into the mic. Yeah. Yeah. Lip syncs. Uh, so I think I, I felt quite like out of my depth. I think when I got to that audition, it was clear to me that people were there. Some of the people who were there had known they were gonna be auditioning for dance school for the past two years. Okay. So they've really just prepped on what was going to be in an audition. They knew. They knew that they were gonna have to do ballet. They knew that they they had a solo prepared like, uh, whereas for me, it was more so like I'd never done anything like that before. So I just felt, I think during that audition, I felt quite out of my depth. Yeah, yeah. And then they did the thing where you sit everyone down and then you read all the numbers out. Yeah. yeah. And then they me and like, I think it was 4 other people got invited back to audition for the foundation. Yeah. Um, and then I think a couple of days later, I came and had the audition with Leeds Beckett. Yeah. With you and Kitty, I think. Oh, really? Yeah. Uh, at um. Northern Ballet. Oh, yeah. It would have been up in Headingley. Yeah. I just remember you going to open the barn door. And then. Very fabulous piece of imagery. Absolutely. It clearly sticks. Yeah, yeah. And then, um, Kitty offered me the she was like, you're very welcome to come and be a part of this course. Yeah, yeah. And then I think I just came out of that and I was like, I don't, I didn't necessarily want to do an extra year in a foundation because I think I was just ready to like start uni. And I think also part of me felt a bit like at the time, like, was maybe like doing something wrong by doing a foundation or like I was letting myself down by having to do a foundation. Did it feel like going backwards? Yeah, I think because my perception of uni had been everybody getting in or like you start uni. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It felt like a loss almost. Yeah. Interesting. And then also because I'd been offered it there and like, I really enjoyed the audition and stuff like that. Yeah. And like, I was just like, yeah, yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. And did also, and maybe you weren't aware of it at that moment, or maybe you were, were you conscious of the financial implications? Yes. With the foundation, I didn't want to spend that money that more money, but I, I didn't even really research it. I think I just had it in my head that if I was to do a foundation I'd be doing, I'd be spending a whole other a whole load of money. Yeah. And a think my parents also just thought that. So like, yeah, yeah, yeah. They, we were just like, no, not, not gonna do it then. Yeah, yeah. When realistically, you probably wouldn't have impacted me so much financially in terms of like student finance. Yeah, yeah. Where ah, but would it of though because would you have got your funding to do MA um on the other end? That's, that's the thing isn't it. Yeah. That's very true. Yeah. Yeah. Might not have wanted to do an MA Yeah, yeah. I think it's also that I think for me, at certain points, it felt as though like, especially when I was choosing to do my masters and stuff. Yeah. I think there's a thing of like, I'm not going to earn enough to pay it back. Yeah. Cross that threshold. Yeah. So I might as well just do it. I'm always going to be skint. Yeah. So it's not going to affect my affect my paycheck. Yeah. Yeah. Get the education. Yeah. Yeah. And so coming and studying dance at university how did that shift your life, your identity, your like your artistic development and your artistic identity and all of that. I think it was, it wasn't obviously first year, we were kind of in semi-lockdown, wasn't it? Yeah. You were in once or twice. Was it once a week? Because we had digital practices, didn't we? Do you remember? Yeah, we had once a week, but then we were on Zoom. Yeah. A lot of things. Yeah. Because that first chunk, my interaction with you was Zoom. Yeah, I remember that. I remember thinking you were quite quiet and shy. I was, I was really quite quiet and shy. Yeah. In school I was quite quiet and shy, especially like outside of my friend group. Yeah. Because yeah, my friendship group was like, it was like five gays and we all just stuck together basically. Yeah. And like, I think dance is definitely at different points in my life. Kind of brought me out of that shyness and like more confident. I'm much more confident now. Yeah. But like when I'm like in a space where I don't really know anyone, I am quite at that time quite quiet and shy. Like when I went to sixth form for the first few months, I was super quiet. Wow. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Just because I don't know, like I feel like I like at the time felt like I needed to get to know people in order to speak up. Right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Honestly, it was just a weird time anyway. That's true. But I think in a similar vein, just thinking about we know from your time here. Yeah. How much you're sort of identity has influenced your artistic. Yeah. Practice and wondered maybe if you could talk about the kind of development of that and how maybe your choice, your choreographic choices and your performance choices have have shaped through your dance education in relation to your own identity. Yeah. And your class identity class, as well as your artistic identity as well. Yeah. I kind of mentioned it before, like I, yeah, I wouldn't dance if I wasn't gay, I don't think. Right. And I think being gay was kind of the catalyst, the catalyst to me dancing. And I think it has always like kind of everything that inspires me about dance. Like queer social dancing. Yeah. Mhm. Queer cabaret performance, like, um, like that has always been interlinked for me. And I've always felt almost a permission to dance because I'm gay. Mhm. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Um, and then can I just ask. Sorry, Josh, do you think that's, do you think that's got anything to do with your social class in terms of, I don't want to say this the wrong way, but do you think that there's something about being gay and being out that sort of makes it more acceptable for you to dance as someone from within a working class environment, than it would be for someone who is not gay cis-gendered. Yeah. You know, like those football boys in PE. Um, they didn't do dance at GCSE. Yeah. Um, and maybe I'm going back in time and being a bit, but I think maybe I feel like there's something interesting about you saying, you know, I felt I feel like because I'm gay, that's what I can do. But also you're coming out as gay in a particular socio economic environment. Yes. From, you know, a family from within that environment. Yeah. And, and a particular geographical environment as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, I think definitely, subconsciously there's definitely that thing of um. Yeah. Um, I think one hundred percent, I think like it's, it's felt like to me. That's what makes sense as a gay male. Yeah. Like becoming an artist and moving away from the working class town. Totally. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think it's the classic, like Billy Elliot pipeline. Yeah. I remember being so scared of my mum putting me in a tracksuit. Oh really? Yeah. Because I'd be like, I wouldn't want to look like a Chav. Oh that's okay. Yeah. But now you. That's your performance. Yeah. Leapfrog to you. Yeah. Your third year piece. Yeah. Some Scum Yeah. Um, and tell us about that. So tell us about the decision for Company Scum. Why is it called Company Scum? Because I don't know. like the, the name is just because obviously like I think at the time I was researching a lot about like working class, um, perception of working class people in the media in the early two thousands and like the kind of the rhetoric created around that. Yeah. And I think the. There was something in of obviously the name of the piece is like S-cum. Yes. And there was something in like the relationship between like, um, queer sexuality and working classness when I was making that piece. Yeah. Yeah. But then I just think scum in general, like nobody really says scum anymore. They don't you. And if you do say scum, it is in a derogatory way. Derogatory. Yeah. Yeah. To like, yeah, someone who's really evil or poor people. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I think I like the dirtiness of the word and like the, um, punchiness of it. And I think it's, I think calling it that was almost like a reclaiming of the intensity and like cruelness of that word. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, um, yeah, and talk to us about the physicality of that work then. Oh, the, the piece. Yeah. Um it was quite, I think we, we kind of made it as you and Olivia. Yeah. Me and Liv Richards. Yeah. We made it as almost though the audience was like an entity we were looking at and kind of had something to say to. Right. Um, and it's quite like. not technical in terms of like technique, but technical in terms of like, we had to really safely be able to move our bodies in quite hard and yeah, punchy and like ways that you could really get injured. Yeah. And like it wasn't comfortable to perform. It was quite hard on the body physically. And like when, when I was making it, I wanted, uh, like I didn't want it to be fun for us. I wanted it to be quite like, I wanted us to be gasping for breath during it. And I wanted us to be, I wanted it to feel angry. Yeah. Um, but then at the same time, I wanted it to feel like a bit wink, wink, nudge, nudge, like at certain points in that, I think that piece, like what I've, what my favorite thing about is like how you read it and how you enjoy it is kind of just based on your class identity. It's interesting. Yeah. And like, I remember when we did it at, um, No Dress Code at Yorkshire Dance. Yes. And there was a everyone, everyone really liked it. Like everyone was really enjoying it. There was one woman who came up to me afterwards and she was like, I really didn't enjoy it. She was like, I just did not understand it. Like, and it was, it was, it was clear that it made her like really uncomfortable. Yeah. And at the time, I was like, well, why don't you enjoy? I was, I was like, I was, I was annoyed. Cheers. Yeah. I was like, thanks. Like, And then Beth came over actually, and Beth was like, oh, tell us why you didn't like it. Like, yeah, yeah. And I was like, all right, all right. Um, but I think that's what I've always found interesting because like the people that have watched that piece, who are who I know for a fact are middle class and have always said it made them quite uncomfortable. Yeah. But then the people who were working class have been laughing their heads off and being like, really? Like an in-joke. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think also really interesting to think about the fact that you wanted it to feel uncomfortable in your body as well. Yeah. You know, I wonder, there's something interesting there, isn't there, in the sense that this is not a comfortable piece for you to perform. Um, and actually the audience are having very, a similar experience, similar experience, sort of doing its job. Yeah. Yeah. As a piece of art. Yeah. But not for those people who can identify this kind of hyper, this kind of exaggeration of embodiment. It was. It was a caricature of working classness and the perception of working classness and like being that to like the absolute point that it makes you kind of realise how stupid it is. Yeah, that was kind of the the driving force. Yeah. And I mean, that's always like a concern that I have is that I feel like working classness is very narrowly portrayed. Yeah, yeah. You know, and often it's like that piece, you know. Um, and that there's a real, um, aggression about it or something as well. And there's people in tracksuits and drinking beer, drinking beer, getting wasted or whatever. Yeah. So in a way, I feel like it's really doing its job that you're making a caricature of that to also explode it. Yeah. As well as well. And this work has overlapped into your, um, more kind of queer spaces. Is that right? Yeah. Tell us about that. So I obviously I do like Glamour Pussy, which I've been doing for tell us, tell the the listeners, The Old Woollen Farsley. Um, so Glamour Pussy is like um Leeds premier drag cabaret night. I've been. Yeah I have yes, yes. Um and it happens in Farsley at Sunnybank Mill in The Old Woollen which is where the Great British Sewing Bee is filmed. Is it. Yes. Nice one. Yeah. And then it's every month. Been doing it for like four years now. Um, I think me and one other person are the only people on the cast that have been there the whole time. Right. Wow. Amazing. And you started that when you were a student, didn't you? Yeah. Yeah. So second year when Lockdown finally opened. That's right. we started doing it. Um, I remember you being quite excited about. Yeah. I was well excited and I started it like I wasn't even it wasn't even. Well, it it was drag almost. But I did it just as like a dance. Uh, yeah, yeah. Um, which has kind of been in the pipeline for it throughout. Yeah. Um, but we used to have like a rotating cast every month and like stuff like I've always been, you've always been I've never been rotating. Yeah. Um, not as a founder member. No innit. Yeah. It's not what, you know, but then so we've been doing that and then we moved to the bigger venue, which is The Old Woollen where we are now. And then currently, as it stands there's a cast of eight of us who are there every month. Yeah. And like, I think it kind of rotates. If somebody can't do it, they're just not there. Yeah. But then we have two, um, G spot cast members every month, which is a guest spot. Excellent, excellent. And then we get like guest spot, um, mind out the gutter Yeah. Yeah. And for that we invite like um performers from Manchester or like different, uh, surrounding areas in the north. So are there different like groups like Glamour Pussy like happening around the north? Yeah. Or do you think, oh, when you invite your guests, are they solo artists? So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Most of them are freelance, right? They're freelance. But are they on a regular spot over in Rochdale type thing? That's like a similar thing to happening perhaps in in Farsley and perhaps in Manchester. Okay. Right. Um But then the work in Manchester's often it is more rotated. Like there's not a set cast like. Yeah, there is for Glamour Pussy. I could be wrong. There could be a space which does that, but um and Manchester's also more so not like it just pops up in the club, or it just you walk into the bar and you get it for free. Whereas Glamour Pussy's like you buy a ticket, you like a show, you sit down like it has a, it has a start, it has a finish. It has intervals. Yeah. Um, there's like, there's a set thing. We all do a runway walk at the start. We all. Yeah. It's the same. We play a game at the same point. Like it's kind of like structured. Yes. Um, which is like quite unique for like a night time cabaret. Yeah. Especially like a drag cabaret because generally that's just like you pop up in the club and it happens and it happens, whatever's happening. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but I prefer that because Glamour Pussy, like, you know that everyone's come to see you to watch. Yeah, yeah. And there's, there's people that have come every month for like nearly four years. Wow. Like just absolutely love it. No, she's only been once. I think I was there when your mum came. Oh. Oh it was the. I've never I don't know why I wore what I wore. What did you wear? I had this big blonde wig on. Yeah. And then this giant breast. This tiny, like Ibiza bikini. And because. Because my parents were coming. And it was the first. It was the first and only time and the only time they've come to see me. Watch. No, they're very supportive. Um, but I was like, if they're gonna come, I might as well just do it. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I thought I was like, I'm not gonna censor myself. Like I wasn't gonna be like some demure sort of like Miss Marple, Mary Poppins number. Yeah, yeah. So I did Celine Dion. It's all coming back to me now, but like, as this, like big bimbo character with like, balloon boobs and like. that's Glamour Pussy. But Glamour Pussy. Because I've like when I've chatted to you about it before, like it's very different. It's a drag night, right? Cabaret. But it's not RuPaul, is it? It's not like hyper airbrush. No, no, it's quite working class. Yeah. It's, uh, it's very, um. Yeah, we love the mess, but. What? Yeah. So what makes it working class? Yeah. Do you think so, For instance, one of my really good friends, Aunty Suzanne, she's a AFAB performer. So she's a female. Um, she comes on stage with a sash that says um Queen of Stockport. Amazing. Yeah. Is dressed like Marie Antoinette. Puts a cake on the centre of the stage is sit, is sitting on this cake. Um, it's like when I don't go a performing Glamour Pussy and feel a pressure to look perfect, polished, polished. Yeah. Or like, look, um, have an expensive outfit. Yeah. It's the way of, I feel like the way of Glamour Pussy is on what you perform and how you interact with the crowd and how you perform, rather than how good you look, right? Although we all do look amazing. Of course, you spend a lot of time, like on your costumes and stuff, don't you? But also that it feels like there's a there's, there's time behind the costumes and the thought behind it, but there's still sort of gritty or you might like there's an item from a charity shop rather than. Yeah. And like wearing balloon boobs. Yeah. And there's a sort of like a coarseness to it or, and it's, it's almost like a little bit. Is it, am I saying the right thing? Like there was a sense and I'm not sure. Certainly when I was growing up, comedy, like in the North was often quite vulgar. Yeah. And it sort of celebrated that vulgarity. Yeah. Yeah. Like you said, she wears a sash from Stockport. So why should that be working class? Yeah. It's just like a northern town. But there is this sense that northern towns are working class. Yeah, it's just this sort of assumption. And we've talked about before about this word common like this, you know, being a commoner and being a bit common. Yeah. Where you might not be wearing the most expensive clothes and you might be a bit dirty. Yeah. And I think there's something in like the crowd at Glamour Pussy as well, because because it is in Farsley, it's in a very middle class area. Yeah. The majority of the crowd we do get is white, like middle aged, middle class women. Yeah. So I feel like they enjoy, they enjoy seeing the mess and like the working class mess almost. Yeah. And like, that's hilarious to them. But that's not that isn't also why we kind of do perform in that sort of way. But I feel like it. Um, and it's not that they're like laughing at us because, because we're poor. It's more of an appreciation of something that they're not necessarily around. Yeah, absolutely. Or experiencing. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there is certain spaces that for certain performance, obviously, everything can be everywhere. Yeah. And like, everything deserves a place everywhere. But how it's found and like how it just happens. Yeah, yeah. It's like different, like drag cultures and subcultures. Yeah. In different like a more corporate venues, more likely to have more of like a full female illusion. Yeah. Like, whereas I've never heard that before. Full female illusion. That's, is that a known sort of describer? I just use that as somebody who gets in drag and wants to wants the overall look to be hyper female, hyper feminine. Yeah. Whereas I, if I. Well, you've still got your moustache haven't you? Yeah. Well if I do, if I do like female drag, like female presenting drag, I still have my moustache. Yeah. And like, rather than wearing like a breastplate that looks skin like I'll use two balloons. Yeah. And like, yeah, I'll never shave my legs and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's because I like, I like that, um, juxtaposition. Yeah, I find that quite interesting. Yeah. But then also, I think it's amazing when people can fully transform and like, do things like that as well. And so when you, when you're creating your acts, what, you know, what are you kind of conscious of? What are you, what are you aiming to achieve? You know, how do you think about your body in that space and what you're going to be doing? How are you going to present? Well, is it well, with Glamour Pussy, it's a different theme every month, right? So it's like we get it's like, it's like a brief, like you get given a theme like we had, um, what was the last one? The last one I did was. So we did one a couple of months ago. That was Harry was TV Burp themed. So like Harry Hill's TV Burp, right. Okay. And my friends who was presenting the show dressed as Harry Hill, with a bald cap on and a suit like full, full drag makeup. It was fabulous. Um, and then for that one, I did like a full Louie Spence number, right? Oh, great. Yeah, yeah. Louie Spence into Hot Stuff. Donna Summer, like, all that kind of stuff. I like that track. Yeah. It's great. I love that's one of my favorite numbers to perform. I've done it as a fireman, done it as an 80s workout. If I can get that song in, I'll do it. Yeah. Um, and then other themes we've done, we've done Glamour Pussy in Outer Space. Oh, brilliant. Yeah. We've done, um, musicals. We've done like a nineties thing, we've done eighties, we've done rock, we've done, oh, brilliant Animal Kingdom. Like it's all like cowboy. That was a really good one. Yeah, a bit of Madonna, of course. Tell Me. So. Great. Yeah, great. Um, so lots of popular culture references. Yeah. So it's, it's a lot of, it's based on pop culture. Um, so we get, we find out the themes like, well, like, I know the themes for the next like four months now. Yeah. But then once you've done a show, then you've just kind of start thinking like you've got two numbers. It can be anywhere between like four. And I've done thirteen minute numbers before. Wow. Like just yeah, it's just like if you, I feel like sometimes if you're enjoying it and you're enjoying making it and you feel like it's gonna just keep going and it's got some legs. Yeah, you can just keep making it. But it's a lot of like, you gotta make, you gotta edit all your track together, which might be just a piece of music, or it might be a piece of music with soundbites. It might be a piece of music with dialogue. It might be, uh, there's someone on the cast that plays saxophone. Um, so I often, for me anyway, I often start with like my concept and the music and I edit all that together and then try and get some studio space, even if it's only for like a couple of hours just to physicalise it. But it's really like a music, costume, lighting like performance. Yeah. You have to learn the words to lip sync if you don't know the song. Like you have to determine if you're gonna interact with the crowd or not. You have to props. And it's like sometimes it is a bit like, ooh, like I've got three weeks alongside working full time. Yeah. But we all always like pull it together. Like it's yeah. do you just love it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like and you care about that community. Yeah. And community of performance. Yeah. I mean, the cast like are some of my best friends in life. And what do the rest of the cast do in their day jobs? Um, so one of them works at Uni of Leeds. Yeah. One of them just works in like homeware. Yeah. Like in a office thing. So have the others like you, had a training in performance and performing? No, you're the only one who's actually got that. There's a performer called Thistle who did like acting when she was at uni. Okay, well, that was quite a while ago. But then they have they've all been performing at certain increments. Like maybe they've danced when they were kids but didn't do it in education. Right. Okay. Um, so they've sort of learnt it on the job haven't they. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But then have also been doing like musical theatre, like in this part time. Right. Like Am Dram type stuff. Yeah. Interesting. I mean, I think it's really interesting as well to come back to that idea when you said you, decided to do GCSE dance because it was safe for you. Mhm. And I feel like there's real resonance with what you're saying here about this being a safe space for you to perform an identity that is resonant with your experience, or feels like an expression of who you are, of your identity. And with in a scenario that feels like it's an inclusive space for that. Yeah. Um, and I think it's, I think the thing about Glamour Pussy is it's like, because it's in the same space every month, like it already. Like I feel so comfortable there anyway, but then also in terms of performing, you can plan exactly where you're going to be in the space at all times. You can plan. Whereas if there's certain numbers that I wouldn't be able to take to other venues because it's not the same space. And like, I can't, it's really designed for the tricks that I like because the stage isn't big enough or like the walkways aren't the same or like you can't walk on the tables and stuff like that. Right. Interesting. Um, and then. Yeah, it's nice, it's nice. Like the punters that come as well. Like, like I say, like we've, there's some people that have come to like maybe twenty shows like. Yeah. And like really support it and like, yeah. Um, it is lovely. Yeah, yeah. And do you think there's times in, you know, the work that you're doing now and thinking like of that, like freelance stuff, you know, is there, is there things that feel what's the word like unattainable? Or do you feel like you don't belong? And maybe that's not necessarily to do with, kind of queer gay identity, but just in terms of maybe class status, like, is there a sense that that's safe in comparison with other spaces or that you're welcome there and you're not in others? Um, I think I, I don't know, really, I think like, in terms of like professional dance spaces. Yeah, I think I often find like, if I'm invited to them, I'm like, I'll go, but I'm not like actively like stepping to be in them. Right. Um, but I think that's just also something to do with like me feeling somewhat in terms of a dancer rather than a choreographer as a dancer, feeling somewhat. I don't haven't had the technical like experience necessarily as, or like I'm not as strong technically as a dancer as or a particular kind of technique. Yeah. As people that are going for dance jobs. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, but then I also don't think that's the work I really want to do anymore anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think your, your dance training and experience and your performance experience and, and your performance experience in Glamour Pussy. Is that given you a confidence and a chutzpah that has sort of given you more confidence to be in all sorts of spaces that maybe when you didn't have that and you were, you know, a little working class boy from Rochdale, you might have not have had the confidence to go to those spaces. One hundred percent. Yeah. I think it, I think dance has done that anyway, like throughout my whole life. Yeah. Because even even where I might not feel confident, I know that I've always got that space to come back to. Yeah. Right. Um, and you've got a community, right, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. And I think especially it's something that's been really big for me as I've like turned eighteen and like I've been older has been like social dance spaces in terms of like nightlife and like queer social dance spaces and like the like music and DJs and those kind of spaces where everyone is dancing, to a collective sound. Yeah. Which is like, which I really love. Yeah. And I think that, um, like it's been nice to like, be there because we're dancing rather than be there because we're all, um, I don't know, because we have to. Do you know what I mean? Everyone's there because they've chosen and they've come to dance. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. And I guess when you were growing up, you had dance at school. Yeah. And there was no spaces like that. Or were there like, was, did you ever have that experience prior to coming to university? And not only no, but, um, no, like a social space to move together with others. I never did dance outside of education until I came to uni. Yeah. Wow. And then even then, I didn't do too much. Yeah, but I was doing Glamour Pussy, which I guess is my own kind of. Yeah, totally. Yeah, totally. But I did, especially when I was at uni, I felt such a like, pressure on myself to be like, why am I not going to every dance class that's on at Yorkshire Dance? Like, why am I not? But then I was at like rehearsing for Glamour Pussy. And I think at the time, because of the dancers that I had around me were doing that, I kind of perceived that as though I was being lazy. But then also I was doing other things that were aside from you. Yeah. So did do you think back then there was almost in your own understanding or felt understanding that there was a hierarchy between those different types of dancing? Like the dancing you were doing at Glamour Pussy and the dancing that your friends were doing? Yeah, extra one hundred percent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, yeah, I think because it's surrounded by university and academic-ness. Yeah. Like job, like actual like working jobs like that are daytime jobs. Yeah, I think it seemed at the time, it seemed to me more credible. Yeah. Right. Um, but now I'm not really bothered. But I think it's also interesting that you say lazy. Yeah. Cause, you know, I, I hate to go there, but I feel like that's another word, right? Where we think of like, you're lazy, get a job, you know, like we hear that rhetoric and I think your piece, like, you know, picks up on that as well. Like, you know, so I think it's, do you think you, you've got a particular kind of work ethic or sense of, your own progress that it's like, you've got to work hard to. Yeah, I think it's, I think obviously when you're working class, if you're not working hard, you feel guilty anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Cause a lot of guilt. It's that aspirational working class, isn't it? Like. Yeah. That's really interesting. Yeah, but where do you think that comes from? Do you think your family have that and have that guilt or. No, no, I think it's I feel like I spent a lot of my childhood wanting to feel out of the working class-ness. Right. And so like, I feel like not almost like you're letting yourself down almost if you're not like working towards getting out of it. Interesting. But then I also think like, that's capitalism. Yeah, absolutely. It's really tangled up, isn't it? And, you know, I think my parents really emphasised, like really put an emphasis on me getting, you know, getting grades so that I could progress and progress. Um, yeah. So my parents were never like, I've never put any pressure on me to like, get good grades or like move away or go to university or they're always just like there for you do what you want to do. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but actually now I want to just segue also back to how you talked about, you did dance because you were not academic, but my experience of you, Josh, as an undergraduate and as a postgraduate was that you were super academic and you could write and, and you could think and you could articulate those thoughts and you could research and then you could develop those thoughts and that thinking. And so has that changed for you now your own perception of your own intelligence? And at what point did that happen? I think so in school, it wasn't it wasn't that I wasn't necessarily academic. It was that my friends were super academic. Like my friends around me were really smart and like really would excel in like maths, English, science. Whereas I was always kind of middle of the road with that thing. Um, but then and then you came to university and then I came to you, you-ne you weren't, you ne, um, I think I grades at uni were a big driving force for me. Um, really? in terms of like, because it was like the first time I'd ever been like, you know what? Like I actually am good at like writing stuff and like, but I think that's because you're writing about something you because you're interested in. Yeah, yeah. And like, actually like writing about things that I really cared about. Yeah. Rather than bloody Macbeth, you know? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I, I loved, I like, I love, like writing my essays and stuff like that. Like I found it super interesting. And I think because I did it often about like my own culture and like the history of my culture and like how dance interacts with that. Yeah, it was more of like a felt less like, I need to get a grade and more like I'm excited to like research. Yeah, yeah. I think that's because I'd done dance classes growing up, but then when I started doing dance at school and like, I like, I loved writing about dance and I was like, I didn't know you could do that. And then sort of became more aware that, oh, like, you could, like, you could have a job writing about dance, like, and I mean, I wanted when I went to university, I was like, I'm going to be a dance critic. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I think that you, you've been given the space to write about something that you really care about and that you're interested in and actually demonstrated how articulate and yeah. Um, and was part of it as well going, I'll, I'll, I'll write this thing, I'll submit it. And then when you got it back and it was like, oh, they think it's quite good as well. But once, but once I got the first, I think it's quite good. I think everyone after that, I was like, I've got to be this good. If I, I yeah, like if I hadn't have got a first, I would have been so upset. But I think that's because I like felt and it is, it is stupid. Like it's, it doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah. But at the same time, like I, I felt like if I'm doing dance, I need to be good at it, right. And like, if I'm doing something that I am like, somewhat like risking what feels like risking a career. Yeah. And with, like, how the world is at the minute, like, I need to, like, at least be good at it. Like I'm paying all this money to be here. Like, and yeah, I feel like it's really interesting when you say risking a career. Mhm. You know, like that sense of what's at risk? What are you risking? Money. Yeah. Well, that's a big thing. Yeah. It's huge. Yeah. But yeah, it's it's. I feel like it's also easier to be skint when you're, when you're always skint as you as so like how I've kind of like at times, like, obviously like times have changed and like things are a bit different now, but like in the back of my head, I do kind of always have like, at least if I'm doing dance and stuff creative, even if that means I do become skint or like I lose money or like, then I'm still doing that. And I'd say, well, it's about value then, isn't it? Yeah. About where you because you know, it is a thing to be able to pay for the roof over your head and to eat and travel and, um, have some pleasure in your life as well. And to be able to do things that make life enjoyable and liveable in, I mean, like when I first started out and I was like super skint. Mhm. I don't know, also part of me, I, I really love that the romance of being a struggling artist type thing, you know, and because I was no stranger to poverty, it wasn't a big deal. Yeah. Um, but maybe if it was the other way round, it would have felt harder, I don't know. You could never know that. And it is quite like being anti-capitalist, isn't it? You know, like. Yeah. Just making do with what you can. Exactly. And I also feel like if you have grown up like well off, and then you do like leave home and become like a struggling artist, you also still have if everything, if shit does hit the fan, I've got home to go to which like, yeah, I don't have, you know what I mean? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And we've talked about this with all of our, all of our guests. Is that that sort of triple whammy of being self-employed, being self-employed in arts and the sector and, and, and particularly dance as well. And then that third triple whammy of if it all goes tits up, you haven't got a financial safety net. That's coming from your family. And that sense of precarity is always there. Yeah. For sure. Do you feel that? A hundred percent. Right. Even like with the move back to Leeds and stuff like that. Yeah. I've had to just take a chance. Do it. Um. yeah. Risk my own finances. Yeah. To do so. But that's just because I think that's gonna be the right thing for me right now. Yeah. Like. But it's not. That's all just me. And like, I'm having to do that with not much money. Yeah. But because I anticipate that it'll ... Fingers Fingers crossed. Yeah. Have you levelled up? That's the question. I'm always levelling up. Um, no, we mean that. We know it can be a problematic term as well. So what what are your thoughts on this whole even notion of levelling up and and then yeah, how, how do you even place yourself within that as well? Just the, the term. Yeah. The notion, the notion levelling what you think it means or what you think most people think it means. And for me, I feel like levelling up is like a sense of contentment with things. And obviously, like, I think especially the past year, like moving back with my family for a year after studying for like four years. I always lived in Leeds for five years. Right? Okay. And then to move back and then to be back now, it definitely feels like I went home at the right time to kind of like, figure out myself and like what I wanted to do and how I wanted to move forward. And during that time, like, it's kind of given me space to like, pursue more creative things that I wouldn't have been able to do if I was living out, because I wouldn't have been able to afford to do them. Yeah. Um, and performing at a Boomtown. Oh, great. Yeah. It's like similar to Glastonbury. Oh, wow. And I'm go-go dancing. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, in this tent called E Numbers, which is super exciting, like G spot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, just stuff like this. I feel like that move home. Like even though it was quite hard, it's kind of giving me space to like recalibrate myself after living in a city where I've felt like I need to get an opportunity. I need to do something. Yeah. Yeah. And whilst I've not had access to do that back home, it's meant that I can pick and choose and like figure out the ones that I really do want to do. Yeah. Interesting. So I think levelling up is knowing when you need to take space to recalibrate. Oh, no one's ever said that before. Josh. That's very good. Yeah. Yeah. Are you still thinking of doing a PhD? Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Tell us. Yeah. I think I wanna see where the world takes me for a few years and freelance more and like the cabaret. So yeah, and stuff like that. And because when I, when I do it, I want to do it when I'm feel like it's, I know what I want to do in. Yeah. Because I feel like I need to do a PhD in order to prove something to myself. Yeah, sure. I don't want to do it because yeah, you, you want to do that research. And do you think like five years ago that you would have thought that's even available to you? No, but I probably didn't even know you could do a PhD in dance. Yeah. Yeah. Um, until I met you guys. Um, but yeah, I think it's, it is a big aspiration for me, I think. Why? Because I want to be a Lecturer. Wow. Because I think it's fun to see dance every day. Oh, No, but I think it's nice to, like, actually get to see, like, new dance being made on a regular basis. Yeah, I think that's, well, cool. Yeah. Is there anything Josh that we haven't talked about that you feel compelled to say or you imagined you wanted to talk about today? Oh, when we were talking about holidays. Yes. So once my parents. So once my parents, we me and my little sister and my mom and dad got in the car and this big Labrador we had at the time got in this car and we she was like, right, we're going on holiday. So we drove like three hours away. I don't remember where it was. I think it was like some seaside area. Yeah. And we were like, on the beach, having the loveliest day. Yeah. And then we were like, right, where are we staying? So they drive down this back alleyway like in a forest, like this dark street in a forest. Yeah. Put the back seats down and we all sleep in the car. And she's like, we're wild camping. Wild camping. I love that. How brilliant. Oh my God. We make do. Why not? You make do with what you got. But that's creativity as well. Absolutely. And also having the sort of like the confidence to do that and say, yeah, we can do this. Yeah. And it's in our. Yeah. Like your mates are having a holiday. We're having a holiday. Yeah. Yeah. in bloody Citroen. You know what I mean. In the woods. Yeah. In the woods. Middle of nowhere with the dog. Yeah. It was. It was scary. No toilet, no food. No water. Sleeping under the stars. Start of a dark documentary that was. That's your next a theme at Glamour Pussy Yeah yeah yeah. Wood. Woodland holidays. Yeah. Wild camping. Yeah, yeah. Do you still think you're working class? Would you define yourself? Ah, yeah. What do you think makes that the case? Yeah. I think the fact that I'm financially independent. Um and not, well and a bit skint. Yeah. Um I think the fact that I, I, I don't have anyone to rely on for income. Yeah. I think the fact that my, I just think financially it's quite precarious. But then I also think the way I'm socialised is extremely working class as well. Right. Okay. I think my um, how can you tell us more about that just in terms of. Like the way I kind of see things and like the way I perceive the future. Like I, I don't perceive it as a given. And yeah, in order to success or success or even just to survive. Yeah. I don't see, I don't see that as a guaranteed, like, I know it's something that I kind of have to wake up and decide every day. Um, yeah, yeah. Like I have to decide to go to work. Like, I like, I, I, I can't, you haven't got the luxury of putting your feet up. No, no, I'm also on universal credit. So I mean, I think that makes me a bit working class. Interesting. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. Um well only for a month. But, uh, do you think, do you think there is a perception that the working class are uneducated, even though you are now highly educated? Mhm. Do you think there's a correlation of, you know, how we talk about how often we think the working classes are portrayed really in a narrow way, and there's also something to do about that portrayal that's about their level of intelligence as well. I, I think it's hard when you've moved out to Uni. Yeah, I think if you asked somebody who was maybe in the same financial position as me, who still lived in Rochdale and hadn't left Rochdale and hadn't been to uni. Yeah, I think they would probably be like, well, we're not working class. Like we are interesting. We're like, cause everyone around is kind of similar. But I feel like coming to uni and seeing the wealth gap and seeing like the The wider perspective of everything and everyone. Yeah. Um, that's made me more aware of it. And I also can through that can see how people perceive people back home from where I'm from. Right? Yeah. Um, so I have an awareness of how it's perceived, whereas I think people in there might not have as wide an awareness of I could be wrong, but yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's a really interesting point. It is an interesting I feel like to step away, you get a perception of especially like what other people looking. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks, Josh. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Josh. Thank you. We're so glad you. You're here on our podcast. Thank you. I'm honored to be here. Well, we're delighted to see you. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Dancing Class podcast. We hope that you enjoy the rest of the series. Please do keep in touch with us via socials, hashtag Levelling Up Dance on Instagram and via the web page, where you can also contact the project team.

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