Özge Subaşı is the Director of Futurewell: CoCreation and Wellbeing Group in the Media and Visual Arts Department at Koç University in Turkey. In this episode, Özge shares a journey from industrial design to interaction design, with a focus on diversity, inclusion, and justice. The work with visually impaired children and older people significantly influenced Özge's transition into human-centered design. Özge's story reflects a life of multiple relocations—whether moving schools as a child, transitioning disciplines, or navigating new countries and cultures. Özge describes “always coming from somewhere and not being in the system.”

The episode emphasizes the importance of holding true to core values, such as listening without prejudgment, fostering open communication, and caring for both the individual and the community. Özge's practical examples illustrate how these values influence research and teaching choices, as well as navigating trade-offs, particularly while completing an evaluation document. The discussion also addresses challenges with Özge's depression during the academic journey and strategies for maintaining personal wellbeing. Additionally, the episode highlights some difficulties faced by academics in Türkiye, including engaging with the international community and managing issues related to travel and visas.

Özge's commitment to personal values, to trying different ways of being an academic researcher, and to fostering an empathetic and inclusive work culture is really inspiring.

Overview

00:00 Intro

00:29 Episode Introduction

03:37 Introduction and Background

04:39 Early Career and Education

08:10 Transition to Interaction Design

11:50 Values and Philosophy

14:15 Challenges in Academia

18:07 Building a Collaborative Culture

26:37 Balancing Academic Expectations

34:42 Navigating Academic Trade-offs

36:04 Embracing Personal Values

38:36 Prioritizing Mental Health

42:26 Building Supportive Environments

47:00 Challenges in Academia

53:45 International Collaboration and Travel

01:02:22 Concluding Thoughts

01:04:36 End

Related Links: 

Futurewell: CoCreation and Wellbeing Group, Media and Visual Arts Department, Koç University

Özge’s LinkedIn page 

Özge on Instagram @allthefooldays (personal page on food & family) and @sozges on X

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

2

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this is

a podcast series where academics and

3

others share their stories, provide

ideas and provoke discussions about what

4

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

5

Do you ever think, you know

someone well, because you've worked

6

with them for a number of years.

7

Well, that's what I thought when I

invited Özge Subaşı onto the podcast.

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Özge and I worked together in

9

Özge is now in Istanbul in

Turkey Or Türkiye in Turkish.

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And is the director of 'Futurewell:

co-creation and wellbeing' group

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in the media and visual arts

department at Koç University there.

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I thought it would be really interesting

to talk to Özge about the challenges

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of trying to navigate academia and

professional engagement, working

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in a different cultural context.

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And also with the particular travel

and financial constraints in Turkey.

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But the conversation ended

up being so much more.

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And I learned things about

Özge that I never knew.

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Özge's story reflects a life

of multiple relocations.

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Whether moving schools as a child.

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Or transitioning disciplines.

21

Or navigating new countries and cultures.

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Özge describes this as

"always coming from somewhere

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and not being in the system".

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Throughout all of this though Özge

also demonstrates a really strong

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sense of personal core values.

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And the importance of

holding true to them.

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And they're values like

listening without pre-judgment.

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Fostering open communication.

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And bringing a deep care for the

individual, the community, the

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environment, and so much more.

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And Özge gives us lots of practical

examples of how these values influence

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research and teaching choices.

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As well as navigating the trade-offs.

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Particularly coming to the fore while

completing an evaluation document.

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Özge also shares very openly about

the challenges dealing with depression

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during the academic journey.

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And strategies for maintaining

personal wellbeing.

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And we discussed the challenges

faced by academics in Turkey.

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In particular, engaging with

an international community.

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And specific issues related to

international travel and visas and how

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students can be particularly impacted.

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So I hope you find this

conversation as inspiring as I did.

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In seeing Özge's

commitment to core values.

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To trying different ways of

being an academic researcher.

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And to fostering an empathetic

and inclusive work culture.

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Welcome Özge (Hi) And as full

disclosure, we should just say that

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we did work together a number of

years ago, so know each other well.

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And I just also had the pleasure

of visiting with you in Turkey

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.

Can you set us up a little bit about your background?

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Özge: Yes, uh, I am Özge and I am

working in the interaction design

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area with, um, a lot of diversity,

inclusion, and justice, topics.

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And I have a background actually in

the arts, more in, in industrial

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design, but more with artistic

perspectives when people use design

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to tell, , let's say artistic stories,

and not necessarily to sell things.

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This is where I started.

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And, then I moved more and

more to the human perspectives,

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and tried to combine it

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Geri: So what, how did that shift happen?

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Because, you know, when CV, it's

very much industrial design for

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your bachelor's and master's.

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And.

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Design anthropology for your PhD.

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So that seems a shift

into interaction design.

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Özge: Yes, actually, at the time

I studied, like, back in the 90s,

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I don't remember even the, the

interaction design word existed or not.

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I remember, maybe, who

was it, in, in Atlanta, the

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ubiquitous word came just true.

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Um, it was, those times.

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And I did have an interest in

understanding people and how I can

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bring it back to what I was trying

to do, but there was no space.

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Just to give an example, in my

bachelor's, I worked with blind and

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visually impaired children for a term

where I spent really two or three

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days a week in a school with them.

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And, uh, while it started truly to, to

build something that is helpful for them,

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like for their educational development.

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It turned out that I was learning

more and more from them and I was

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more and more inspired from them.

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Um, but there was no space in

my education back at that time.

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So I was doing some extra artistic

courses in my Bachelor, but the project

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ended, uh, as a toy design for them

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Geri: mm

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Özge: But then I moved to, uh, to

master's where I studied more of cultural

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studies and design anthropology and

step by step and implemented them into

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my work and started doing more and

more interventions were like, about

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performance on the street or a small

exhibition on an unexpected space,

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things like that to, to see how I can

use this design early skills to disrupt

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a little bit of these prejudgments.

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It all started more

organically, basically.

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Geri: Yeah.

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And you can also see the red threads

that I can see today, like the fact

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that in your bachelor's, the work

with the blind and visually impaired

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students is something that seemed to.

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I don't know, energize you or you

find important and when you introduce

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yourself, you talked about diversity,

inclusion, and justice, and Yeah.

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They seem like really strong

red threads through it all.

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Özge: Embarrassingly, the first

time I, I was meeting with these

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students, these children, they were

like seven to nine years old, maybe.

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I was expecting to give them

something, like, because they're

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blind, they're visually impaired,

and I can build something for them

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so that they can enjoy, you know.

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But then I realized that they were

gossiping around things we are doing.

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Like, you know, the other students

work, actually it's too easy, but they

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are just behaving as if it's fun.

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Things like, and then I started to dive

into that world and understand that it's

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more, you know, they are children first,

and then they have these differences.

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Geri: Hmm.

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Özge: And their word built on,

like, their language built on it.

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Geri: Hmm.

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Well, that's interesting.

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Özge: So embarrassing, but good learning.

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Geri: good learning.

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Yeah.

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So after your PhD, you then worked in

different projects, bringing more of

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this designerly perspective and more

from the interaction design contribution?

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Özge: Now, CVs, I need to give

this, opinion here, maybe.

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CVs are written in a certain way

that makes things look successful.

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But I think a lot of things on

my CV just came out of necessity.

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Like I wanted to do more artistic

research and I applied to

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around 400 jobs as an internship

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Geri: how many did you say?

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400?

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Özge: over a period of a year maybe.

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But it was like the answers were

either we don't have any openings or.

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We would love to work with you,

though we don't have any money.

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Um, and then, and I didn't have

any money and I needed a job

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that would pay my rent basically.

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So, uh, around that time, my partner

just told me, because he's also

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from software informatics, told me

that, you know, there are people.

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People in the software and technology

area, they're trying to do something

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similar to what you are looking for.

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Maybe look with these words.

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And then he gave me a kind of a book

about user experience, or he suggested

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me the word and I found the book.

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And this is how I moved to

this area, basically, because

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actually I needed a job, a visa,

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Geri: mm

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Özge: and I needed to keep going,

but I also didn't want to leave the

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things that I want to proceed with.

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Um, yeah.

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And then the next step in my first job

as a user researcher, user experience

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designer in a company where they were

doing more research oriented projects,

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uh, people didn't want to take the

projects like, that looked heavier,

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like, you know, caregivers for Alzheimer's

disease or, you know, projects with,

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um, I don't know, cancer systems

for several health issues, et cetera.

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I was like, I was maybe one

of the people in the group who

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were like, Oh, give them to me.

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I love them type of thing.

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And it just, you know, I was

there doing the thing I imagined.

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I remember my first week reading

books about ethnography and how

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to put them into technology.

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And I was like, am I in a

dream they're paying for this.

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Like, you know,

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Geri: It's, it's interesting, isn't

it, the serendipitous ways that things

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happen and the ways you clearly

identified with the strand of work.

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in this job that you took

for pragmatic reasons of visa

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and just getting an income.

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And this was when you

were living in Vienna.

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And still through that, even though

it was more pragmatic, you were

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still able to find a path that you

connected with and a contribution

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that you could really care about.

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Özge: that that is really how it, it went.

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And I sometimes when I look like,

I always try to transfer these type

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of stories to my PhD students when

they're super demoralised because

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you don't know what will happen next.

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Just, you know, stick with the values

you have and do your best in the

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situation where you are more or less.

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And I'm still doing that, more

or less that stayed with me.

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Geri: So what are the

values that you have?

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Özge: Oh, it's hard to count when

just, you know, say one, two, three.

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Um, but I think, uh, it's important

to listen to more than talk to.

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And I think it's almost against

the education I received.

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Because designers are educated in a way

that, you know, that typical, um, wrong

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quotation from Harry Ford, if we ask

them, they would ask for horses, etc.

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Um, and like all my work and say,

success builds on listening, basically.

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And listening without prejudgments, maybe

as much as, I mean, it's impossible

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because we are all biased, but, but like

trying to listen, um, and then maybe care

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for like, not only for the self, but care

for the environment, care for the others.

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I mean, if things do not come back to

you as benefits, you still need to care.

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It's a fundamental thing

in my group as well.

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Um, and then also,

culturally I am raised in a.

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culture where things are more communal

and collective than individual.

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And I see quite a lot.

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And then I lived in different countries

more than 15 years, where individualistic

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values were much more prioritized.

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Um, and almost like, you know, pure

collectivity was sometimes set aside.

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So I think collective values

over individual values and

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collective goals, let's say.

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And then from there, we can, of course,

always move to diversity inclusion

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Geri: Mm.

190

Yeah.

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Özge: And also open communication.

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This is very important, like,

really open, direct communication.

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And I'm more struggling now in Turkey

about this than back in Austria, although

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it was another language and so on.

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Geri: Oh, can you say more about that?

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Because you eventually moved

back to Turkey from living in

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Austria and you have a lab there.

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in the media and visual arts

department that is called future well

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that we can come to in a tick and

that's interesting that future well

200

also reflects some of those values.

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So you're in Turkey and you said

that the open communication and being

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direct is more challenging in Turkey.

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Özge: Yeah, The culture in Turkey

builds a lot on indirect communication.

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Um, although, most of my colleagues

here, as well as students, they

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come from more European and U.

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S.

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education systems.

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The culture is still there.

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People tend to not to say,

sorry or I made a mistake.

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And really avoid it by silence this in

return as a leader, uh, comes back to

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where you can also not say, uh, can we

reconsider redoing this just because

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you see doesn't fit or something.

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It's just like, this was one of the

earliest feedbacks from my students.

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Where they said, you know, they are

not used to this type of communication,

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just because, they first perceived

it as a power relation, whereas

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I was trying to build an open

communication and a space for growth.

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This very much reflects one little

anecdote here like my PhD students

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are very well connected to their jury

members, because of the system we

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have here, and they have six monthly

meetings where they present progress.

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And to be honest, their juries were

a little bit, not aggressive, but

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like, you know, openly criticizing

them so that they can learn at home.

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can make their mistakes at home.

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So, that when they are there

in the job market, they know

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their weaknesses or et cetera.

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And then I was sending my

students to other juries.

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And they were like, oh, you know,

there was a big mistake about

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methodology and no one mentioned

it, you know, this type of thing.

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Um, even in scientific,

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Geri: Were your juries more open?

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Were they not Turkish?

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Is that what you're saying?

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Özge: Maybe you know, a jury is made

out of people and people we invited,

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and We had, thanks to, you know, lovely

HCI community members like Angelica

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Strohmeyer, Sarah Fox, um, sitting in

our juries, many more actually, Maria

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Menendez, Avsar Gürpınar, and so on.

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And they're all these people who

are struggling with different

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things, and then they were really

open about Um, the weaknesses, the

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Geri: Mm hmm.

239

Mm hmm.

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Özge: face, and and off the

record at the end of each meeting.

241

They were always like,

Oh, it's a great growth.

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Uh, you know, congratulations,

but it's just the last sentences.

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Geri: So it was the fact that they

engaged openly and honestly with

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the realities of the work as they

perceived it and the students aren't

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used to that culturally in that more

direct, and took it more personally?

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Özge: In the beginning, yes, but after

some juries seeing each others and, you

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know, seeing how it all goes like that,

I think they cannot do otherwise now.

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They are more skeptical if I, you

know, they write back to me like,

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uh, I don't see many revisions.

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Is it okay?

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Did you have a real chance to check it?

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So, you know, things change

in time very, very easily.

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I also started implementing this,

not implementing, but doing it more

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in the group because I took over

department coordinatorship in the

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media and visual arts department.

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And this is much more senior people and,

with their own interests, work cultures.

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But I try to communicate everything

openly and like to everyone equally

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And I think this also creates some

confusion from time to time, but now

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everybody is kind of okay with it.

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In the beginning, I think they were

like, okay, what are you up to?

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Because it doesn't sound like the way

we do it or the way it was done before.

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now everyone is happy because there is

one document you can always go back and

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see what the decisions were made and why

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Geri: Mm.

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Özge: More transparency

never harms, basically.

266

Geri: Yeah.

267

So you talked about building a space

for growth, and that talks about time

268

to, to do the building, and you're

doing that with both your students

269

and in your interactions with the

other faculty in the department.

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Özge: I am trying but as you know,

the universities, I think, wherever you

271

are, they're not built in a way that,

initiates this type of open discussions

272

all the time, or, I mean, although that

we say so, it's really hard, uh, within

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the systems of systems to try out these

kind of things, because everything

274

is more and more efficiency based

and documented in a particular way.

275

So it's really hard to keep this

growth approach up to date.

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It's another effort, actually.

277

Geri: It sort of reflects what you

said about the CV, that the CV is a

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particular telling of the career that

doesn't include the 400 applications

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that you send out or all the problems

and there's a way in which the, um,

280

Özge: Yeah.

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Geri: processes also have this sort of

a sanitized view of how work gets done.

282

Özge: Actually at the Futurewell page

and we are not doing it very diligently

283

nowadays, but we did in during the

pandemic like we also recorded our

284

rejections to the Futurewell CV, or

we also recorded things like, you know,

285

someone did a embroidery session in

the city and enjoyed it or things like

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that, because we just thought, okay,

if no one gives credit to that, we

287

will give credit to that as a group.

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We will value that.

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And it actually brought us students.

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Who were more like, I saw you

are doing this type of thing.

291

And I actually didn't know this existed

in this department or things like that.

292

I met many students like that.

293

So maybe they are just one or two

percentage of all students, this

294

doesn't mean that they're less

valuable or their values are less

295

relevant to the design or arts.

296

Geri: I love that you're trying to

give that visibility so that it's

297

not just the sanitized, tick box,

efficiency based version, because the

298

rejections reflect work, don't they?

299

And, running, a craft session

in the city reflects work.

300

Özge: Exactly.

301

And it's also a lot about growth.

302

You know, if you put things to

journals, uh, that you know, or to

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conferences that you are co organizing,

it's just, you know how it works.

304

Maybe it says superfits.

305

Uh, but for interdisciplinarity and

for searching new areas to grow, um,

306

usually you need to try and get rejected.

307

People react to things that they don't

know, and maybe it's a part of your role

308

to push the boundaries a little bit more.

309

Each time, and I should say, my life only

benefited from that in the last 20 years.

310

I mean, although it was really hard in

the beginning, like all these rejections,

311

I'm very happy that I attended design

anthropology courses in Vienna.

312

I'm very happy that I met my own

boundaries, the wrong education

313

sometimes that I received.

314

I, I'm so happy to have faced that.

315

Geri: Or what?

316

Like what came outta that?

317

Mm.

318

Özge: I think I'm more like,

I always ask the question to

319

myself, why am I doing this?

320

Is it like our very best, for instance,

When we can measure and optimize every

321

aspect of our health, is it like the

very best thing to do or, the typical

322

question like, who will take care

of me when I'm old, for instance,

323

um, I'm asking the question, would

life be more fulfilling if we know.

324

How we will be cared as

we age, like daily care.

325

And then when I really sit and think

about these things and read things around

326

these topics, I realized that it's not

these certain answers or perfection.

327

It's the way that goes to that place.

328

And I think as designers, we

need to take responsibility

329

about how we design that path.

330

Designers are more powerful in that

sense, because it touches every day of

331

every person, like there is no single

day in an urban life, especially that

332

you don't touch something designed.

333

Basically.

334

And so, you know, the new question of

AI, and it was always like that, the new

335

technologies, maybe we won't need design.

336

Then I start questioning more and more.

337

Okay, but like we're designing them,

you know, because like the way they are

338

designed, they actually shape our worlds.

339

and then if we reflect on our own

bias, and then if we as educators, as

340

trainers, educate people in a way that

they reflect on their bias, then we will

341

end up with better designs eventually.

342

I mean, it should happen like that

because there will be less feminist

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activists visualized in AI with a

mustache, for instance, like the less

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feminist activists from Turkey, you

know, this, this is a story we just

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wrote some text to AI in the early

days to figure out how it is perceived

346

when there is a Turkish context to that.

347

And all you receive is

like, a lot of textiles.

348

And if it's feminism, kind of a female

looking bodies with moustache and, hair.

349

I don't know why.

350

So this is a product of

bias thinking possibly.

351

Geri: As you said, that's

designed still, and not good.

352

Özge: Actually, that thing, most

of the things such like cultural

353

differences, that they can be fixed.

354

They can be easy fixes to them because

they're not evil in, in, in, itself, it's

355

just learned and you can unlearn them.

356

But then, I think it was in June, I

was listening to Sasha Costanza-Chock.

357

And they were talking about, the

necropolitics of technology, you know,

358

when technology intendedly kills people.

359

Like in the war situation

or something like that.

360

Who is responsible for that?

361

Or what is the responsibility

of the designer at that point?

362

And if you start saying there is

no responsibility because they

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were just programming, they were

just designing, I'm not sure if

364

you're standing on the right spot.

365

We should question that and then we should

really build our practices around that.

366

The values I told like community

values and like humanity values.

367

Um, and then I think you won't

find many designers who want

368

to design for necropolitics.

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Geri: How do you reflect on having

these values and having these concerns

370

and to the extent in which academic

culture that you are in, enables

371

them or not, like, how does it fit?

372

Özge: I want to take it from scratch

here and reflect back to my re relocation

373

experience, basically, because I

think it connects back very well.

374

Like, academia, can we call it academia,

like the primary school, I don't know, but

375

you know the education and the academia,

let's say, never accepted my path.

376

Because as a small child in

primary school, I needed to change

377

school and cities five times.

378

So each year I studied back

and forth between two schools.

379

And it was the relocation experience and

my teachers were accepting me, et cetera.

380

You know, that there was no big trauma

traumatized memories from that time.

381

But imagine I'm, I was like

6-11 years old in this period.

382

And relocating due to

my mom's work situation

383

Geri: Mm.

384

Özge: Out of necessity, changing

all the friends, et cetera, and

385

struggling to get accepted by the

system, by my friends, by my teacher.

386

And then, I moved to

another city to study.

387

And then I moved to U.

388

S.

389

for a period, uh, and then moved

back to Istanbul, another city I did,

390

I was not living, uh, before then.

391

And then I moved to Vienna.

392

And throughout all these relocation

experience, I don't remember a time,

393

academic, non academic, or any

other systems accepting my path,

394

because I was always coming from

somewhere, and I was not in the system.

395

Um, and people were actually trying

to help me fit into that system.

396

You know, they were trying, oh, you

know, you don't have this, but maybe

397

we can solve this problem like that.

398

And I think this adaptation gave me a

specific understanding about academic

399

expectations, how they are set.

400

And how I can move in it.

401

I think this comes from this relocation

experience because I was a designer,

402

I was an artist, like, you know,

I had graduation certificates

403

from artistic universities, and

then I worked in technical areas.

404

Geri: Mm.

405

Özge: You know, all these things, they may

seem seamless, but actually they are not.

406

You know, the paperwork says you need

an engineering graduation certificate

407

in order to, I don't know, supervise

a student or something like that.

408

And thanks to many, many people who

voluntarily helped me, who just took all

409

these hundreds pages of documentation

and then went through them to find that

410

particular sentences that would help me.

411

I think I learned how to move, and it also

comes back to the academic expectations.

412

Like, I am doing this yearly

evaluations in my university, um,

413

like I'm filling in these forms about

expertises, and, and how well I did.

414

And all I am doing is basically

trying to fill in things I have done.

415

In the wording, they ask for more or less.

416

Geri: Mm.

417

Özge: Of course, it just

gives you a structure.

418

Like, you need funding.

419

You need publications at certain venues.

420

You need good quality of teaching.

421

But I'm not against them.

422

They are not against my basic values.

423

The problem is how you balance them.

424

Like, one example is, like, when I

first arrived here, I already was

425

very experienced in, European projects

and how to build projects, etc.

426

But, and like pandemic just shortly

after I came to Turkey, I realized

427

that it will be a hard path to take

a project and lead it in a system that

428

I'm not familiar with where you need

to circulate paperwork much more, etc.

429

So I opted for smaller grants.

430

I looked at what I have in hand.

431

I already got funding for

PhD students from the school.

432

So I looked for travel money.

433

And then I looked for material money

and I skipped the human resource part

434

and bigger projects, which comes with

a lot of travels, which comes with a

435

lot of documentation and reporting.

436

Actually, it helped like this decision.

437

Helped me cut maybe, I don't know,

a lot of hours invested in it.

438

Geri: Uh,

439

Özge: So this

440

Geri: a lot of hours in the admin

overhead sort of management side and

441

you use those hours instead to do?

442

Özge: Uh, I used it more to build

this culture, of collaborating with

443

people, um, in the neighborhoods and

open communication, setting more open

444

design culture and also of course

supporting my students in their work,

445

and like more quality writing, free

writing, like, because if you have

446

a project, there are certain things

you need to write in a particular

447

area for a particular conference.

448

And this is not always your favorite paper

to write, but you need to write them too.

449

So in my case, we were

really working on papers.

450

You know, literature reviews, even if

they are not accepted, we were working on

451

literature reviews, for a longer period.

452

They were rejected, but like, it was fun

to deeply engage with an area, without

453

the pressure of delivering a report,

delivering a particular paper and so on.

454

And it was not many, many hours,

but the hours invested into these

455

readings instead of the hours invested

into a report, a technical report.

456

Geri: I love that this has been a very

deliberate choice, like a strategic choice

457

to say, this could give me a tick, a big

tick, because, you know, a big funding,

458

but the cost of getting that is not

being able to do all these other things.

459

And I see again reflected the values

that you talked about before in terms of

460

the open communication and the community

aspects in what you're doing, and the care

461

aspects in looking after your students.

462

How are you, what's the trade off been

though in doing that now that you're

463

trying to write your evaluation document?

464

Özge: The trade off as of course, big, uh,

when it comes to, I don't know, promotions

465

or, , a space negotiation or, I don't

know, things that comes to an end.

466

where you need material things from

others, especially from the leaders

467

of your university, of your area, etc.

468

But in return, I was able

to, uh, serve in communities.

469

I always wanted to serve like, you know,

SIGCHI ethics community, accessibility,

470

like, uh, community access SIGCHI.

471

Um, and then I served as

associate chair and in other

472

roles in many conferences where.

473

I really met friends online from

time to time, like friends and

474

colleagues, let's say, online

and was able to exchange ideas.

475

And this helped me stay on track

throughout the years because like

476

Turkey is a bit of disconnected.

477

Um, I need three hours to the

airport if I use public transport.

478

And back in Vienna, it was like a 10

minute walk on an accessible pedestrian,

479

uh, pathway and then a 12 minute

train to the airport from my place.

480

Um,

481

Geri: to three hours.

482

Özge: yeah, and then pandemic,

of course, two years of pandemic

483

in between, independent of that.

484

So this gave me the opportunity to

talk to people that I want to talk to.

485

And to be a part of service

roles that I want to be part of.

486

And the trade off is the other things.

487

But, I mean, academics do not

always like to cite popular figures.

488

But, there is this saying from Douglas

Adams, Life is wasted on the living.

489

Um, I love it.

490

I mean, if you think through that,

a bit deeply, you know, my choice

491

brought me people and conversation, deep

conversation, that I'm interested in.

492

And it took away material things that I

only need to proceed, with other things.

493

They were intermediary.

494

I didn't get a space, a proper space.

495

So I opened my own office to

my students as an office.

496

It was not a big, big, you know,

big, big, big thing for me.

497

Geri: So you didn't get your

own separate lab space, you

498

Özge: Exactly.

499

Exactly.

500

Things like that.

501

And, um, but it was not, I

would do it the same way I did,

502

basically, after six years.

503

I'm not sorry about that.

504

Geri: mm

505

Özge: Um, and it just gave me a chance

to think more about what do I need.

506

But how, how I fit them into my reports

now or yearly or five in five years.

507

I don't.

508

I report the things that I have made, and

write really always openly about why they

509

are relevant and why they are important.

510

Um, and then if people in leadership

do not believe in these things.

511

I always try to give them examples

and references from outside of

512

Turkey, uh, or from other places than

these leaders would find successful.

513

And I'm just trying to open this

type of communication more or less.

514

Geri: Mm.

515

Özge: Let's see how it turns out.

516

Geri: I mean, in a lot of what you've

talked about, you've always been trying

517

to find ways of being true to you.

518

Mm-Hmm.

519

Özge: I think it's also, it comes

back to a disability I own.

520

Basically, I was diagnosed

with depression, I don't know,

521

some people call it disability,

some not, but, uh, I claim it.

522

Uh, and this was back when I

was studying on my bachelors.

523

And then, um, and after treatment,

like medical treatment more.

524

Uh, it came back when I was writing my

PhD, and at that time, when, when you

525

have something like this, they, if you

are good enough, it's not that severe,

526

they just can give you some tests to

figure out how to deal with it, et cetera.

527

And then I realized what, like towards

the end of the treatment, second round

528

of, you know, treatments with therapy.

529

I realized that I can only act well.

530

Uh, when I am true to my values, um, and

then I said, I will prioritize my mental

531

health, and just, you know, if it's

the only way, then it's the only way.

532

I think it just comes from there.

533

It's not like, oh, you know, I

have values and I implemented them,

534

but it just comes from a personal

study, uh, story to my opinion.

535

Geri: What do you do to look

after your mental health now?

536

Özge: I do, what do I do?

537

Um, I keep space between stressful things.

538

Like, instead of planning stressful

meetings on the same day, I put one

539

meeting a day and then keep space for

less stressful and more fun things things.

540

as much as I can.

541

I walk in the woods.

542

It's a bit of a privilege of

living very outside of the city.

543

I walk, every day, at least 30 minutes.

544

Cats are great in Istanbul

for the mental health.

545

Like, uh, you know, you can try

to walk with a cat, all the time.

546

And, and of course, I surround myself

with people who understands me.

547

I actually give this

advice to many people.

548

that you should work people, with

people, whom you can get along with

549

and prioritize this more than the topic.

550

That's my understanding.

551

Like rather than really jumping into every

diversity inclusion topic that happens

552

in the school and around me, I really

work with people, uh, who are working

553

on diverse topics, but we're really

interested into building this forward.

554

In a, say, in a less relevant area,

like a high tech, a new high technology

555

thing, augmented reality, I don't know,

something like that, you know, or, hybrid

556

type textiles, or things like that.

557

Geri: So not being driven by

playing the game in a way, but being

558

driven by staying true to yourself.

559

Özge: We're still playing the game.I

mean, it's really hard to say, oh,

560

I'm out of the game, by the way.

561

It's, it's, it's impossible.

562

Especially on my age where I

still need to work another 20

563

years to my official retirement.

564

So, I try to find potentials, like

potential places within the game where

565

it's pretty untouched and, maybe you

can go in and try something different

566

because no one is really interested in to.

567

I mean, I, I take these

kind of risks, let's say,

568

Geri: Have you got an example?

569

Özge: um, maybe for instance, things

that I do with the city councils here

570

in Istanbul, uh, we look into, look into

topics where you cannot easily convert to

571

money or technology or, you know, and I

went to them just based on my interest.

572

Um, but from this communication and from

the initial more, um, let's say mainstream

573

workshops we have done about accessibility

of the city, is the city accessible

574

to everyone, or is it safe for women?

575

We moved to a communication where we

can talk about, non human potentials

576

of the city, what do we have, what

about the green areas in the city,

577

and like one of my students is working

on this topic as a PhD, and it really

578

organically grow from that collaborations,

communications, tools we have used.

579

So we didn't really build on

accessibility issue and said, uh,

580

okay, let's build an app that shows

all the accessible spots in the city.

581

But we went with this relationships

and, um, tried things that

582

were not in their agenda.

583

Geri: Sounds good.

584

Can I go back to the depression and

during the PhD and writing that up?

585

So you were working with us at that

point, when you were writing up your PhD.

586

Okay.

587

Özge: writing a PhD was a long journey.

588

And so I think it was before that.

589

It was before that it was even before

my job Before the university, I had a

590

long period where I wrote my PhD and

I'm writing a PhD in an art university.

591

It's a very free space.

592

I was not funded by my PhD, but

I was doing research and teaching

593

assistantship on different schools.

594

Um, and it was that time, it came

back and it, it used to do with many

595

things, I think, because like, mental

health can go really worse very easily.

596

Actually, we don't realize that

until it is at a certain stage that

597

it can be diagnosed, more or less.

598

Geri: yeah,

599

Özge: Did you want to

ask a particular thing?

600

Geri: I think I was

601

wanting to reflect on myself because

I was head of the group that you

602

were in and we were working together

603

And I never knew that, that you

had a background with depression.

604

And I just wonder, is there

something that I could have done

605

differently as leader of the group to

606

make it okay to talk about or, you

know, um, yeah, or just could I have

607

done different things to support you.

608

Özge: It was like the period before

I was working at the university.

609

And thank you, but I think you've

done really well always, all the time.

610

It's, it's nice to have someone

who you can cry with, love

611

with, and then work together.

612

It's a very accommodating

environment for, for someone like me.

613

Um, I think the time I had that It

was more of, um, a lot of things

614

coming all together, including

a kind of an asocializing.

615

Uh, and at that time I was like,

I said, loosely connected to work

616

environments, loosely connected to school.

617

I was not a student anymore, but

not a part of a community as well.

618

And I think, being relocated,

dealing with all types of issues

619

around that, all added up to that,

together with the stress of, about

620

your future, about your, um, family

situation, that you cannot really help.

621

You know, things pile up together, and

if you are already a bit vulnerable in

622

the beginning, it can easily get worse.

623

Geri: Mm, Mm, Mm.

624

Özge: And, um, and also like, um,

having therapy in a language that you

625

are on B2 level is not super helpful.

626

It was the times where you wouldn't.

627

receive help in Turkish, for

instance, in, in Austria.

628

I think it's different now, by the way.

629

Um, and it's a good thing.

630

And school support was really loose.

631

Um, I remember, I don't

know if it's any better.

632

It's a slightly bit better at our

place now, but still, you don't

633

have one door, that you can knock

when you're not feeling all right.

634

You know, it's still.

635

Um, and this is something that we,

we do at Futurewell, by the way.

636

You can just come over and have

a cup of tea with us and we can

637

just chat and we prioritize that.

638

Geri: Mm.

639

Özge: because I mean, half an hour

of a tea drinking will not really

640

make me less successful, I believe.

641

Uh, yeah.

642

Geri: So it's, it's not a big cost.

643

So that connects nicely to what

you've done in leading your own

644

group, where you've set up this

culture statement, for the group

645

about how you look after wellbeing.

646

Do you wanna talk about

that a little bit more?

647

Özge: Yes.

648

Starting from the early times, for

Futurewell, but also like maybe

649

my time at IGW, uh, as well.

650

I was more like,

651

Geri: IGW, being the group that

we worked in together, just for

652

Özge: Uh, uh, yeah, I think I

just realized that I was seeing.

653

clearly that people were struggling.

654

You know, it's, it's sometimes they even

called my room, the dark room, to cry.

655

Some people in the group, because

it was at the end of the corridor.

656

It's super disconnected.

657

So if you go and cry there, no one

apart from me will know about it.

658

I don't know if it may, it was really,

you know, extra inclusive or something,

659

but I remember we joked about that.

660

Um, so.

661

I wanted to have the same

thing in my group as well.

662

It should be a place where people can

openly talk about their problems, um,

663

more than small chitchat, maybe even.

664

Um, so we didn't hang anything on the

door, but if you know it, um, You know

665

it like if you just come to the room

for another purpose and like you are a

666

little bit shaking people first ask you

to sit down and have a tea and then we

667

will talk about whatever you want to ask

a little bit later and people usually

668

sit and after having their tea they

they either tell or sit in silence.

669

But you understand that they don't come

to that room just because they want

670

to ask for a signature or something.

671

Sometimes, you know,

there's more connection.

672

Geri: Mm.

673

Özge: Um, so, another thing was like to

really reflect on things at the time.

674

Like, when COVID came, for instance,

uh, most people kept working.

675

Like, they just moved to Zoom

and kept working like before.

676

And we said, okay.

677

It will be hard times, because, you know,

it sounds like it will be hard times.

678

What about having a short check

in every day, where we talk about

679

just the day, and if people want

to have questions, then they can.

680

Want to ask questions, they can.

681

And things like that.

682

I cannot give a recipe for these

kind of caring acts, uh, let's say.

683

Um, but it's, it all reflected.

684

to our teaching, for instance, later

on, to more importantly, to our remedial

685

exams, amnesty exams, you know, I don't

know if you have them, but in Turkish

686

culture, in Turkish system, if you fail a

class, you can receive some extra exams.

687

If you fail a couple of classes, but

you are in the situation of graduation,

688

you can, get, uh, other types of exams,

just all at the same week, et cetera.

689

And, these are like traditional

exams and some people have.

690

stress about this because the

exams decide their future more or

691

less if they can graduate or not.

692

So I was just, building them differently.

693

Like I was talking to students and

giving them the option that they can

694

submit in advance and if I, if they fail,

they can resubmit a better version or

695

because you cannot extend the deadline.

696

The deadline is central

But you can start earlier.

697

Things like that.

698

And, um, I think this

accommodated a lot of people.

699

A lot.

700

I mean, I don't know, but at least

this accommodated the people who

701

were on our door and asking for help.

702

I cannot say a lot of people,

but it helped some people.

703

Another thing is like, um, the

physical access basically, If you

704

cannot get physical access, you can

actually, um, get collaborative access.

705

If you don't have the opportunity

to put a stairs to somewhere, You can

706

have the person, yeah, hold them and

have them jump or, you know, there are

707

different types of access and it was

a lot of understanding these things,

708

learning and trying to accommodate.

709

One, one, one simple thing is like, one

of my colleagues with wheelchair, he

710

told me that he cannot come to my room.

711

And I didn't know why, because my room

is just next to the elevator and it's

712

one of the most accessible places.

713

And later on he said, uh, because

I have accumulated artistic

714

stuff, stuff behind the door.

715

The door is not fully opening.

716

And I was like, you know,

this is intersectional.

717

My artistic practice and their

material conflicts with this.

718

Um, but you know, learning how to

restructure your environment in a

719

way, just putting just very small

things, open communication allows

720

you to correct them a little

721

Geri: Mm.

722

Özge: And, and grow your, um, empathy.

723

Geri: Yeah.

724

Özge: Because you start looking at

where are the other things, where are

725

the other doors that are not fully

opening or, uh, or when I am working,

726

with disabled students and they cannot

find my room or the class where we

727

are teaching, then you know that the,

braille maps are not perfectly working.

728

Because we have braille maps.

729

Basically, we have great

accessibility support in our campus.

730

In contrary to common belief, uh,

it's an awarded, like, accessibility

731

awarded campus, basically.

732

But still, it doesn't mean that people

can use them easily, can find these

733

maps easily, um, and things like that.

734

Geri: Mm.

735

Yeah.

736

And, and more lovely examples of the

way you enact care, you know, like you

737

live out your care value on a day to

day, both in how you engage in your

738

teaching and using the space you have

to innovate or interpret the central

739

rules about deadlines, to support

students and also just The openness

740

to respond to students needs as they

come up and to keep growing yourself.

741

In just looking at wrapping up.

742

Are there any things that we haven't

talked about that you'd like to talk

743

about or share while we're here?

744

Are there any things about, I don't

know, any particular sort of challenges

745

around working in Turkey with, say the

economic constraints there and trying

746

to engage in an international community?

747

Because you talked before, for example,

about Participating in some online

748

committees and professional service

roles, and they sounded like they

749

were roles that you could play out

online, and I know that a lot of our

750

communities also encourage, rely on,

reward physical travel, for example.

751

Özge: Uh that's a good point

that we can talk about.

752

I think there are a couple of things

that many people whom you also

753

talk with, who are not living in

Europe or US, um, tell the same.

754

There are differences.

755

They are not necessarily weakness or

strength, but there are different things.

756

Like one issue is that doesn't

apply to me, but that applies to

757

my team members or my colleagues.

758

Most of the time, the

visa issue, for instance,

759

Geri: Um, Uh, Um,

760

Özge: It's not only the travel.

761

I mean, most people would just say,

okay, I will travel three hours and it's

762

a bit of a harder task than 20 minutes.

763

Though, if you're living in Turkey, And

we work on a very sharp political climate.

764

We struggle, and in Istanbul we

struggle, with megacity problems

765

and in comparison, like, you know,

commute to the airport is a fun

766

activity you would do for three hours.

767

It's not the problem.

768

But then the visa issue, like the low

acceptance of visas, for instance,

769

currently in Europe, Was a big deal

for us because like two of my students

770

on two different times were rejected

with an accepted conference paper.

771

And this can be end of their career.

772

They're PhD students and we barely put

the money together as a, um, research

773

group, um, they got funding from the

conference organizers, for instance,

774

thanks to everyone who supported this type

of travel funding, because we really, I

775

mean, we couldn't pay anything about, you

know, about the entrance fees, et cetera.

776

Another point, but then the visa costs,

they, their families take care of it

777

and sometimes our graduate school, of

course, and then the visa is rejected.

778

Think about the monetary aspect, the

effort they put in and the irrelevance

779

of such a paperwork to their life.

780

PhDs or to their paper writing.

781

And then they really need to

deal with on a daily basis.

782

This means even if their visas

are approved, they can only book

783

on very last minute flights,

which is much more expensive.

784

They can only book in a hotel on

the very last days, which means they

785

usually live outside and cannot really

be part of the cultural activities.

786

This is a huge, huge burden for us.

787

All the time.

788

I said my students and my team.

789

Um, were lucky and travel funding.

790

But if you don't have travel funding,

I mean, they have a bit of a budget

791

here, but like the expectation

of interaction design area of

792

publishing, it's just really a lot.

793

And if they want postdoc positions,

they need to publish, they need

794

to be present, they need to attend

the workshops to make friends.

795

Um, and it's impossible because like,

you know, Euro versus Turkish Lira.

796

The money that we get as salaries or as

support, it just like melts so easily.

797

it's impossible to keep

pace with that as well.

798

Um, for me, the most, most challenging

thing, but not a big, big challenge

799

in comparison to two things that I

mentioned is usually the time zones.

800

Like when you have service

meetings, of course, people want

801

to have them towards the end of

their day, like as a last thing.

802

So end of your day at five o'clock or 4.

803

30 in Europe is my dinner more or less.

804

Geri: Mm,

805

Özge: Um, but I mean, people

were so accommodating.

806

For instance, Stacey

Branham and Sarah Volks.

807

I mean, they wanted to take 6am in the

morning sometimes so that our students

808

are not presenting in the middle of

the night or, you know, and I just

809

really, I, I was so taken care of.

810

I couldn't really say, uh, it was a

big problem, but in general, let's say

811

Geri: yeah.

812

Özge: that people need

to take care of more or

813

Geri: Mm,

814

Özge: Uh, and, of course my university

and other universities in Turkey

815

who are struggling for success.

816

Um, they are evaluated with U.

817

S.

818

systems, like, they are competing

for the same ranking as the U.

819

S.

820

schools.

821

And this puts a pressure

on everything that they do.

822

Um, everything has to be a kind of a U.

823

S.

824

like, for instance, me being evaluated

by 12 international professors to keep

825

my position, or, you know, and then each

professor in tenure track has the same.

826

And think about the amount of service

work the deans have to do, the

827

coordinator has to do, coordinators

has to do, and the number of letters

828

the international people need to write.

829

So these type of things.

830

Um, I think that I cannot change, but

I'm looking and observing them closely

831

and try to find potential to, to raise

voice maybe because they don't seem

832

very fitting and uh, and accommodating.

833

But on the other hand, I don't

have any other solution because

834

like it comes from a global system.

835

They try to be like, my

university is in top 500.

836

Um, in, and it's a research one university

with a lot of ERC grants, and this is a

837

huge success for a university from Turkey,

with all the struggles piling together.

838

Um, so they are trying to keep their

space, I mean, uh, keep their spot

839

and they're playing the game and it

reflects back to us more or less.

840

Geri: mm,

841

Özge: This is a lot of things.

842

And one last thing.

843

I want to see more people

traveling to Turkey.

844

That would be nice.

845

I think none of the major

conferences were held in Turkey, and

846

people were not that frequently.

847

I mean, our department is, uh,

having guest speakers every year,

848

international guest speakers.

849

Um, but.

850

The more people invest into other

countries, not only Turkey, the

851

more connected we are, and then

the less biased, the less biased

852

everyone is, like, you know.

853

So that the less tension we have

across countries and I think this can

854

only help having a more inclusive,

uh, interaction design area.

855

I don't know

856

Geri: And it's, it's growing the

empathy that you talked about

857

before, isn't it, in, in doing that?

858

Özge: exactly, I mean, just commuting

three hours from the airport helps

859

understanding why you don't, why

the other person is just a bit not

860

wishing to travel that frequently.

861

Geri: Yeah.

862

Yeah.

863

So I know that being in Vienna, I can pop

up to Denmark for a meeting for the day

864

and come back the same day because as

you said, the app was really accessible

865

and that's just not an option you have.

866

Yeah.

867

Özge: no, just, uh, yeah,

but it's cutting travel.

868

Cutting travel is a learning as well.

869

Geri: And, well, uh, yes, and

cutting travel is a learning.

870

So there's some ways in which maybe the

increasing emphasis on sustainability and

871

the increasing critical reflection we're

seeing around the amount of academic

872

travel, and whether that's a good thing

or not, can also be an inclusive measure

873

that may result in other initiatives

that could help countries where it is a

874

little bit more difficult to travel from.

875

Özge: Um,

876

Geri: Yeah, Özge we should wrap up

and thank you so much for giving me

877

this time and just for sharing your

perspectives and I really appreciate you

878

and your commitment to staying true to

who you are and really navigating that

879

path through and making it work and even

where there are trade offs, you know,

880

you, you articulated those trade offs

in a way that were constructive still.

881

And, you show an example of how you

can make those trade offs and still

882

feel good, and still make them work.

883

Özge: I think, I should thank to

you and people like you, uh, who are

884

trying to open these conversations

to public, who are trying to

885

accommodate them all the time.

886

Because I think this gave me

the power to look into the

887

dark and weak sides of things.

888

Um, just an accommodating environment

and community really helps to reflect.

889

On these things, so if it's a

success, it's a collaborative one, for

890

Geri: and we're all part of that community

in creating that space for one another.

891

So thank you, and it's good.

892

Özge: Thank you.

893

Geri: You can find the summary

notes, a transcript, and related

894

links for this podcast on www.

895

changingacademiclife.

896

com.

897

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

898

Spotify, and Google Podcasts.

899

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

900

we can do academia differently.

901

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

902

And if something connected with you,

please consider sharing this podcast

903

with your colleagues together.

904

We can make change happen.