Join Tanya Arnold for a special episode of Carnegie Conversations, recorded in front of a live audience at the Carnegie Sport Nutrition Symposium in collaboration with British Dietetic Association Sport Nutrition Group.

Tanya speaks to Sir Kevin Sinfield CBE, performance nutritionist James Moran and Professor Ben Jones about the 7 in 7 challenges and the team behind them.

Kevin shares how a promise to his friend Rob Burrow became a series of fundraising challenges for the motor neurone disease community. Together, they explore the food, sleep and support that keep the team going, the moments that have stayed with them and their preparations for challenge number seven.

Listen now to hear their stories.

Or you can watch the conversation here: https://youtu.be/3c3lgY0SVOE

Hello and welcome to a very special Carnegie Conversations recorded in front of a live studio audience. We're here at the Carnegie Nutrition Symposium. We're going to be talking all about the seven in seven challenges done by Kevin Sinfield. And our guests are James Moran, a visiting fellow here at Leeds Beckett University. He's a performance nutritionist and was the nutritionist on the seven in seven.

challenges. He's joined by Professor Ben Jones, Professor of Applied Sports Science here, who was the sports scientist on Seven in Seven, and the man himself, Kevin Sinfield, CBE.

So Kev, just take us back to the beginning of how the challenges came about. Did you suddenly wake up one morning and think, I've got to flog myself?

No, first of all, thank you. Thanks to James and Ben and Pete and Louise Sutton, BDA for inviting me here today. BDA, I'm to say I'm going to donate to our pot this year, which is fantastic. But it's great to be back. I had eight years studying here, which I did say to Pete before, actually, I think I get less for manslaughter now. But I love my time here. So when I get an opportunity to come back,

And when something happens to a mate like that, you try and work out what it means. Well, he's just been given a death sentence, but how can we help him? How can our team do something for him? And very, very quickly, there was two big events that the club hosted that were raising an amount of money for Rob. That amount of money came together. We went for a meeting with the great Doddy Weir of Scottish Reunion International who had been diagnosed with more neurone disease.

And as part of that car journey home, me and Rob discussed how we could help. the first one was, whatever happened, I'd be there shoulder to shoulder with him. So no matter how bad it got, I'd keep showing up. Because what I found out really early, after he got diagnosed, that people stop turning up when people get MND. It's too hard to see what it does to family and friends. So people just stop going, and it's really sad. The second one was, because we didn't know what the time scale.

And I asked the lady at the club at the Rhinos, who was looking after Rob's bank account, how far we off the target, that I promised we'd raise him. And we were 70 odd grand. So that's where this started because straight away, Rob played number seven. The sevens, I'm not very creative. I'm sure a lot of me tutors here would say I'm not very creative, but I'm pretty proud of the fact that I tried to build something around the sevens. So I came up with an idea.

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trying to raise 77,777 doing something over seven days. We start at seven a.m. every morning. We're gonna finish on the seventh of December. At that point, I'd seven marathons. Never ran back to back. Basically ran them for Prostate Cancer UK, which is charity really close to my heart. I always watched London Marathon when I was a player, and I always wanted to do one. And I did one. And it might sound a strange thing to say in a conference like this. I realized that the training for it meant I could eat what I wanted.

That's how it started, seven marathons in seven days. Back then it was really six. We only have six people to take part. I got it signed off by a local authority in Oldham and where I worked in Leeds because I was helping run our COVID protocol for a professional sports team. were testing every morning. We had to follow all these different requirements. There were no other fundraising events taking place. Everything had been cancelled. BBC Breakfast saw what we doing and thought, you know, there's nothing else going on. We'll support these guys.

You guys all had a lot of furlough money because you couldn't go on holiday and you couldn't go out to eat. So suddenly we got a lot of support and that's how it started. It was thrown together out the back of my car, the routes we planned, our nutrition was nothing like what it's been. But you find a way and thankfully, so that's how it started. I've tried to give you the shortened version, I can give you a lot longer, but in a nutshell, it was based on a promise.

So when did these guys get involved and when did you bring a team around you?

We had an external support for that first one because there could only ever be six. And that consisted of there was three runners at first, and there was three guys on bikes. What happened was we lost one of the runners who tore his calf leading in, and we needed a media guy. So effectively there were six of us, three bikes, three runners, and a media guy. But what we found out was when we lost one of the runners, Phil Daly at the Reynolds, who's been awesome for us, came in as the media guy as our six.

What we didn't anticipate was that people would join us on some of these and we couldn't control it. But it was great, but it was a bit like the Pied Piper at times. There were just people turning up and going, you can't come with us. And they're going, right, you're not going to stop us. So it became complicated. I didn't know James at this time, but Ben and Pete were offering support from afar because we couldn't have them anywhere near it or certainly not in BBC Bretford size because we couldn't break the law. My best friend from school.

James married his cousin. And I didn't know, but he lived in Saddoweth, where I live. And I got a message one day saying, my cousin's married a nutritionist. Do you want some help on your challenges? I'm like, yeah. Baking an egg butt is great. And they've stayed, actually. But we need a bit more than this. And that's when James come on board. And that's where, you know, year two, we had a much bigger team because

First of all, BBC Breakfast wanted us to be more secure and safe. We knew we needed the support and we couldn't win again just with six of us. We needed a lot more than that. So that's when these guys really came on full throttle.

So Ben, you've known Kevin for many, many years. What was your reaction when he told you about the challenges?

The first reaction was we thought he was making it hard for himself. You know, any ultra endurance or endurance event like this is hard and then the parameters that put around in himself in terms of I'm going to start at 7am or I'm going to do it in 24 hours or I'm going to go from city to city and one city is going to be down south and the next city is going to be up north. We all thought this is harder than it needs to be but you know, that's where Kev thrives. I think the...

The main bit that we've always done is around supporting Kevin, what he needs to do to get through each event. Each event's been different, each day's been different and ultimately it's been about working out the problems as they come because we're not really prepared, we, Kev?

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No, when you say that there's a lot going on it behind the scenes But in effect it is a this how I describe it. So I hope you're not offended you too. It's a stag do without beer Yeah, that's what it is. I wish anybody got

What do the Stag do when you do seven ultra marathons?

It is great fun. Like for me, being back in the team, I really miss the dressing rooms, I really miss the camaraderie and the banter and I really miss seeing people smile when we've achieved something at the end of it. miss, you know, some of the finishes we've had, you know, walking out of Old Trafford when you've got three or four of them are mad Man United fans, to walk out on that pitch in a full, before a rugby league World Cup final is special for anybody.

But if you've got many United fans with you, and some of the places we've visited, like, they've pinched me moments for all of us, some of the dressing rooms we've been in. And then just that connection with the group, like, I can't do what I do without these guys doing what they do, and they don't just turn up and do. Ben just isn't a sports scientist, and James just isn't our nutritionist. They have 50 other jobs to do to make it work. And everybody's the same, because that's the great thing about good teams. You just get stuff done, and you make it work.

There's loads of issues we have, isn't there? There's loads of things that have gone on. We turned up for a flight one year and our names aren't down and said, you're not getting on this plane. And it was like, well, there isn't much we can do. We turned up, we were supposed to get a ferry in Liverpool across the Mersey and they shut the Mersey and said, you can't get across. We were like, right, well, you just find a way. And that's where these guys really step up.

And I think that the saying we don't plan is probably a little bit unfair and little bit facetious. There is a plan, but we know that actually for how long we're out on the day, you can't plan everything and every scenario. So there's basically a support team which are there to just muck in, help troubleshoot and support this.

So James, from a nutrition point of view, I mean, if you were completely in control of what Kevin was going to eat and drink, and he didn't get a say, because I know he does, what would you fuel him and the team with for those seven days?

Yeah, it's a good question. I the first challenge when I came in, which Kev mentioned, I'd seen the campaigns, I'd been out running and seeing Kev training and when they were talking about the second challenge, I just wanted to help. thought, you know, surely I just wanted to help and that's how it came about. And I approached that challenge as if I was working with a team or athletes because I didn't really have a personal connection. So I came in very meticulous, very planned, very structured.

And I think it actually worked quite well because if I'd not been like that, I wouldn't, if I'd have been too friendly or too, not soft, but like focus too much on Kev the human rather than actually what he needed. think we might not have had as successful of an outcome. was quite, I had quite a lot back, backlash off some of Kev's entourage, who are his friends who saw, who's this lad who's say insisting that Kev has this drink at this moment. So there's a bit of, bit of a friction there, shall we say. But then when we'd

all finished together, I think they all realised that I was doing it for the right reasons and then the relationships have been much, much deeper now. And we kind of have a good plan now, which is a blend of kind of science and performance and we're you know, technological sports drinks that, you know, two hour marathon runners use, but we're also using foods that Kev likes, like Jaffa cakes, flapjacks, bacon, sandwiches. But so we kind of get in the both because it's...

It's a challenge, it's a performance challenge, but it also needs to be fun as well. So it's getting that blend where Kev's getting what he needs nutritionally, but also psychologically. And it's not like a big, you know, transactional kind of thing.

Do you know what's been great? And it's right, some of you might not understand some elements of what we tried to do, this isn't a sub to our marathon challenge. But it's not a family fun run either, but we're somewhere in the middle.

When you're out on the road, because the last four, five even, we broke into seven care segments because we want to meet people. We want the &A community to come out and share in it and be a part of it and understand the love and support that's there for them. So you're on the road for long periods of time and typically they've been in December. Well, the weather's not great. So we've got our three bikers and our runners. Sometimes we stop. They're freezing. So food becomes morale and food becomes so important for us.

If James stayed meticulous with what he'd done in cycling and rugby, we'd all have had enough of him from two days on. But he's smart enough to realise that the food is really important and providing I get in what he needs me to get in, he lets me crack on and he might say, you need an extra dessert tonight, or he might say, I need you to have this. And I know when he's been direct with me, I know, just get it done. I actually can eat a lot, I'm greedy, as I explained at the start.

So I don't struggle with taking food in and having what he wants me to have. But for the other cyclists, if you think they're going pretty slow on a bike, and they might be on it six hours, seven hours a day, it's soaking wet through, they're cold. Some of stop, they're having fish and chips. Can imagine what that's like for the runners? going, why is he having fish and chips and we can't have any? But he gets it, he gets it. And that's the great thing about the group. This isn't a family fun run and it's not a sub-two hour. It's the sweet spot in the middle.

We all have one rule and some of the guys will have a drink on it now. I want. We have one rule, you have to make the start line in the morning. That's it. It is good fun and we have loads of banner and the signs we get from these two and others, I loved it when he said answer eyes there. It made me sound like some rapper. I'm not. But it's just a really good team.

the best team I've ever been in and I've been lucky, I've played in some great teams and worked with some fantastic teams but not like these guys and what they've done for all of us.

So give us the seven days leading up to Kevin going out on that challenge. What are you two telling him to eat, drink, do, be? What is the plan you try to get him to stick to?

We've probably been more and more relaxed as each year has gone by because Kev knows how to look after himself and it's very much our job is to make the challenge more bearable and maybe make fewer hiccups acknowledging that Kev would do it if we were there or not. So it's very much what can we do to kind of make sure Kev's rested, that he's you know not doing too much without telling him do this, do that. It's very much we're there as a support rather than you know.

we're not working for a club or an organization in Kempf, an athlete, we're kind of friends and so yeah we're more there to support rather than being school teachers.

And I think our biggest fear that we had early on is that Kev doesn't finish. That's the kind of weight that you have because if, whilst it is really relaxed, if for some reason Kev didn't finish, then you feel responsible because the next thing you'd do is look at each other say, have we done everything possible? And the answer is no because how it's set up.

very early, the first few challenges, you might as well be in a guinea pig with testing where we were testing every stop, measuring everything and because legitimately if you look through the challenges and how hard they are physiologically, biomechanically, like we don't need to look at it psychologically for Kev, he shouldn't, like there's a chance that you don't do them or you become injured or you...

you develop some condition that you can't finish because of how hard it is. So we were doing lots of work with both in terms of mainly the first two. The first one which was that we were involved in terms of the 24 hours at each stop. We did some work on the pacing and again we kind of had a bit of conflict especially with others because we were trying to pace this 24 hour run and you can imagine what everybody does when they join Kev.

and wants to run one leg, one leg of 24, they go faster. And then Kev goes faster and they go faster and Kev goes faster. So we kind of, we did a lot of monitoring and then what we actually realised was that actually the conversations that we have and how well we know each other actually are probably the best parameter for how Kev's going. So then we were able to kind of do less, which make it more enjoyable for Kev and we know how he's travelling. So...

Like James is right, we actually did kind of less year on year because we've got a better understanding.

What was the toughest challenge for you?

Second one, we ran from Leicester to Leeds in 24 hours. We ran in 7k blocks, 24 of them. To Reunion, I've been there three months. The challenge was over 24 hours because I couldn't get a week off work, if I'm being brutally honest, but I could get a day. But that meant my training wasn't where it needed to be, my prep. I was still living at home in Oldham and I was driving to Leicester.

four times a week, just two and a half hours. Stayed over a couple of times, weren't sleeping properly. I get onto sleeping a little bit, how important it's been for me. I've learnt a couple of lessons there. And I did a 12 hour run of this challenge and honestly I breezed it. I set off at three in the morning for my garage on a day off from Leicester. Three and a half kilometres out, turned around around three and a half kilometres back, sat in my garage floor for 25 minutes, then went again and I did 12 of them.

So I'd run 84k on this day and I got back and fought.

Low and behold, then it's a couple of weeks later, I'm in the thick of it with Lester. We play, I think we might have played Bath Away or something like that. We had this big car journey, had about three hours sleep. We turn up, I'm getting ready to this 24 hour run and yeah, I can remember getting to about hour 18 and I mean these guys, I know these guys were worried. I could see it in their faces.

Best way can describe it is, I don't know if many of you have been in a cockpit of a plane because they don't really let you in anymore but when I was little they used to let you in when you went abroad and they've got all these buttons and all these fancy lights. Best way can describe it was, if all those buttons and fancy lights in my body, when I walked in the cockpit there was one light on, I felt like, honestly, I couldn't speak, I couldn't eat, I wouldn't drink, all I wanted to do was sleep.

Ben had said before we'd started when you sleep deprived things seem 30 or 40 percent worse Like I were a mess but it's because I didn't prepare well enough and some of that is out of my control because I'm trying to work and I've got a family and you're trying to do all these different things plus all I'm thinking about here is I can't let anybody down Nobody's having the money back those who donated I don't want anybody saying to me can I have my money back because I know how important it is so then I don't want to let these down because

They're trying to, he needs this, needs this, he needs this. And I'm looking at him going, I can't have any more. But that was the most difficult.

I think it was interesting because when we were coming to the end of it everyone was like, no, no, you're nearly done Kev, come on, nearly done, just five left. Like five or 24, you've still got 35k so we're looking at each other. You probably stopped eating, eating then stopped drinking then. And everyone's like, you'll get through this. And it's not like it's one k left or like 10 minutes left. There was still a big chunk left to do.

I felt drunk. The last four legs I felt, yeah, felt blind drunk. I had no control over any part of my body. What made it worse? It's supposed to be, so 24 times seven, you're converting to miles. It should have been 101 miles, that's why we call it the extra mile. We ran 104 because we got lost twice. can you imagine doing something like that and getting lost twice? We ran through a graveyard about 20 to three in the morning in Rotherham.

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And I can remember looking at the fire, I can still see at this point, I remember seeing the gate at the other end and I'm thinking, that gate's closed. And as we're getting closer and closer towards it, I if this gate's locked, and we had a guy navigating for us, and all I could think about was, if that gate's locked, there's gonna be another body in this, if we had tonight. But that was, that was my most difficult moment, like those last few hours of the 24 hour one, but then there's been challenge five, I went and injured. I went and injured.

Yeah, I'm gonna come back to that from your point of view so Kevin stopped eating drinking taking on anything you're telling him to take on what is going on with him nutritionally what's happening when he is said I'm done what's it doing to

Yeah, I mean in that challenge we had.

blood glucose sensor on him as well so we could actually see in real time that his blood glucose was dipping into hypoglycemia and Gemma the doctor and we were actually concerned. We managed to pull him out of it but when you're on your feet for that amount of time, there's not just the fatigue but you almost feel like seasick because you're constantly in motion so everything's just out of balance and we were trying all kinds of things like I was putting for the nutritionist in the room maltodextrin in a cup of soup just to

a little bit of carbohydrate into him, know, savory carbohydrate. We would try anything just to get little bits in, but he was quite nauseous. We had some ginger nuts, because ginger can help with nausea and things like that. So just anything just to give him a little bit. And we managed to, I've still got the trace, managed to bring his blood glucose out and it kind of...

stabilized again, but me and Gemma and Ben, were very concerned at one point and it was difficult referring to Kev's entourage, but they're his friends and his brother. So they just see me, Ben and Gemma as being mean because we're like, you need to eat this, you need to drink it. They just want to look after him. We're trying to look after him because we're actually worried for his health. So it was pretty twitchy, wasn't it? And then when we got into Headingley itself.

we were kind of just relieved to all be on the sofa and think me and Ben had to fill in a little bit on BBC Breakfast because you were just empty, you had nothing left.

You know, there are a couple of stories from that, I'll share with you quick, because I know it. At one point in the night, we had a motorhome with us, right, and these two old guys had jumped on us said, look, we'll support. And Ben had put a pizza in the oven, and this motorhome shop passed about four in the morning with both sunroofs open, we'd smoked, and we went out. And they went the wrong way, and it was brilliant. So we did BBC straight after we finished the 100 Mile Act.

And I just felt like I was going to faint. And I got home and I was in a mess. I stripped off in the garage. My wife pushed me upstairs. I sat in the shower. I got out of the shower, got dry, got straight into bed. I had two hours sleep. I got out of bed and I felt brand new. I felt like I could run. Seriously. It was bizarre. And it was just the sleep. I mentioned sleep before.

how important sleep is. When you're to do anything like this, banking sleep, trying to, you know, in the week leading up, that's the thing I focus on now. Diet is crucial, but the sleep. If you're going in and you're sleep deprived, you're not in a good spot.

So just from your point of view, Ben, what was that challenge like? That second one.

The second one was the most intense because like, Kev's sleep deprived, but so was everybody else.

And I will, well you actually looked after Kev didn't you? And I was trying look after everybody else as well in terms of, because you're trying to keep everybody else happy. Yeah, what we learned with motorhomes are great for cooking when they're still not when they're driving. There was these kind of 7k blocks and we were in the motorhome trying to leapfrog. But actually unpacking and repacking in a short period of time.

It's quite stressful and then doing that 24 times gets even more stressful and more tiring again when you realise you've left the campervan's chairs at like two stops behind and they get upset. That was also not very good. But it was mainly around, I suppose, just making do and trying to make it as possible it was for Kevin and everybody else involved.

So jump forward to that fifth one when you went in with the injury, which you kept quiet publicly until quite a long way in. I'm guessing the team all knew did that.

Yeah, mean Gemma and Davu, Dr and Physio, I'm sure they'd have shared with these two. What we tried to do was keep it from everybody else. Basically what happened, I was due to leave England for a reunion on the 9th of November. So this is going back 18 months. And I was starting a speaking tour on the 10th. So I thought, finish on the 9th, start on the 10th.

And I thought I can do two things at once. I can coach and work and run. And then from the 10th, I can do the speaking tour and run. As it happened, I ended up staying. I was trying to do three things and it was too much. So I'm talking about sleep. And when you push and push and push for a period of time, the amount I was trying to run at the time and bank runs and load runs up and run half marathon in the morning, walk 10k in the afternoon and load them up back to backs, some of it we're going to give and we went.

to do a speaking event in the Isle of Man and I got there and I had a half marathon to run. The two guys I was with went and had an ice cream on the front and I'm running up and down that front past them in Douglas. And I got 10k and I could feel my calf and I thought it's just because I've been on a plane. Probably the worst thing I should have done, gone for a run. But I was trying to get this ready because I talk about getting three things ready, my legs, my head and my heart. I was trying to get my head ready for the challenge.

And we went to this event that night and I could feel my foot swelling, I could feel my calf swelling, and I'm like, no, what have done here? Anyway, I came back and we were about two weeks out from the start. I went and saw Dave, our physio, and he said, yeah, it don't look good, this. They sent me for a scan. And we got a specialist opinion and we had another scan and got another specialist opinion. Basically, I tore my soleus tendon where it joins at the back of the knee, I tore my hamstring tendon, and I pulled part of the joint capsule off my knee.

They didn't know I had done it and neither did I. They said typically it's from being in a car crash and being crushed. But I'd just been running. And the advice was you won't get through the first day. So Dave were great with me. know I rehabbed, I did two weeks on a walk bike to try and get ready. So I still training and I just ice bathed and ice bathed and ice bathed and I was still coaching. Running the water, tweaking them and running the kicking tee on.

Obling, because nobody knew I'd done it and I'm trying to disguise it. We ran a little bit slower, we, purposely? We charted it through and we got there. I was so relieved to get through the first day. So relieved. And that was the day where we did our first seven care and the ferry was supposed to be a boat taking us across the Mersey and a military ship came in the Mersey so they shut it down. So right from the start we had, and then we were 20 minutes behind time because we had to get a train to the...

the next start point and we caught the 20 minutes up which when you think about it was doing it with an injury and it was crazy. But the team was so good. What you don't want when you're injured is people asking you all the time are you alright? You don't want them flapping around you, didn't. We just got on with it like we would, we knew we were going to go a bit slower. We were still well within our checkpoints that we needed to make.

Getting through the first day was big for me.

I think on that, that's probably the only time I've ever seen Sir Dave our physio.

six foot five, Gaelic footballer from Cork, very, very calm, very, very relaxed. One of the best physios in the world. I was rooming with him and that was one of the first times I've seen him show a slight bit of concern that he said, you know, we'll know a lot from this first 7K. He said, this first 7K will tell us actually. He said, if he gets through this 7K, we should be all right. said, but there's a chance we might not get through this first 7K.

So yeah, was testament to Kev and Dave and the work they did that we managed to get through.

Do you step back at that point and just go, there is no education manual, anything that can get you through that?

like with all the challenges, you look at what physiologically somebody would need to be able to do. it's the point I started with, know, lot of these, you know, 99.99 % of people wouldn't be able to do half of it. You know, but I think it's a lot around the playing career. The more you work with elite athletes, the more you realize that kind of everyone at the top level finds their own way. So, you know, we know what it is, but actually they find their own way to perform or to

to overcome what they shouldn't be able to do. you know, going back here further, watch Kevin, his grand finals and his challenge cups. know, this is the game where you got knocked out and you shouldn't have carried on playing and you did and you kick the winning goal. You know, so there's examples where actually Kev's got a lot to draw on, which means that, you know, he'll get through this.

So for all three of you, when you look at the preparation, how you fuel yourself, what has changed from one to six and that you take into number seven?

for me the simplicity. Like we know now what works. I know that at certain points of the day, Kev will want certain things, whether that's a savory option or, but the first challenge I literally had, every 7K I had like in a Ziploc bag with different options of nutrition in 25 gram carbohydrate portions and it was like a bit of a pick and mix. Whereas now I kind of know what Kev needs and I have options that.

you might say, have you got this? And I will have it. So it's gone from being like vast selection Pandora's box of nutrition to actually we have a simple carb drink that works really well for Kev's energy and for his stomach. Some solid snacks like Jaffa cakes, flapjacks that we trust, a few extra bits, salt, vinegar, crisps, discos that they always go down well. A bacon butty around 11 o'clock, recovery shake. And then we try and be quite aggressive after each run.

So a little bit like in my work with cycling, we're really trying to maximise the amount of fast carbohydrate we can get into Kev when he finishes. And then dinner, we're quite relaxed because sometimes dinner's donated by someone or it's a set menu. So my role then is to try and guide Kev with this set menu, what's going to be better to get more carbs in him for the next day. It's very rare for me to say don't have that.

But I would probably say maybe this might be a better option or try and have two desserts or something like that and that's how we've managed to get through.

We make sure that there's always nice bath option at the end for where we can, where we've got time for. So that seems to work. And then we always have compression recovery garments on the coach after. But it's more around kind of keeping everything as relaxed as we can because actually there's a lot of times, depending on the challenges, where Kev will finish and then there's a tight turnaround for either a bus, a plane, et cetera. And actually sometimes just

keeping everything simple and relaxed and getting back on the coach and getting some calm is what we need rather than trying to be too precise in terms of how long you need to spend in the ice bath or what you need to do. There's also more broad around everything else. There's also lot of kit and things to move. So think we, in the nicest way, fuss less. Everything's there. We always have a...

have a chat, see how everything is and then actually there's just probably more moments of calm rather than kind of over fussing where we probably did that too much early on because we were worried.

And I think we've been a bit better with the sleep side of things as well. There's two, I've learned into one, think it was two challenges ago where we were getting to places really late and then we were having dinner and then going to bed. So then, and then you're up at five, six in the morning. So that recovery sleep window was getting squashed more and more. What we've tried to do on the last challenge with, with, Pete and the other guys who lead on the logistics is try and move that eating window earlier so then we can get back and have a snack. But the priority is then on

because that for me was brutal and the support staff, you were then up washing bottles and things after dinner and getting into bed at midnight one and then having to get up at four or five, which you can do once or twice but when you're doing that for a week, the last couple of days you're not your best version of yourself trying to support Kevu's tide as well so I think we've just been a bit smarter and tried to be more efficient with the stuff behind the scenes.

So from your point of view, has it easier sounds like a silly word to use when you're doing the challenges, but just because you've become a well-oiled machine, are you allowed to just focus on what it is you're doing and the PR side of what you're doing? Because you're also speaking to people at all of these stops, which in itself is tiring.

Thank

Yeah, these are great because I know I have to get a certain amount of drinking every 7k. And after two hours I'll have 12 Jaffa Cakes, which is a skill running, eating 12 Jaffa Cakes. I've got to tell you, anybody wants to try it, please feel free. So I tend to get into a bit of a routine and I know what's coming when and I know when the salt and vinegar discos are going to be brought out. That's normally bit later in the week as well as a bit of a pick-me-up.

But the morale is crucial for, if you're out there and it's hail-stoning and you're, we ran once in snow in Birmingham and within setting off for 30 seconds, your feet are completely soaked. Well, you're on them and you're in the same shoes and socks for seven hours, you're not gonna get a chance to change them. It's like, right, well, we're in this now, but I'm running, so the bike is a different. Does it get easier? I think I'm just a bit more experienced now.

The team is brilliant. They just do exactly what is needed all the time. There are, this might sound strange, there are very little fall outs, if any. And even if they are, it's only because someone's tired and then very quickly there's an apology and we move on. This one that we start in September is gonna be different to the others because we don't have the big travel time afterwards. So a concern for me is, know, typically you get on the coach

you

and you might have a five hour bus journey and everyone's up and down the coach and chatting and laughing and someone's filming a podcast and someone's working and there's all sorts going on. There's football on the TV. We don't have that travel time this year. So a concern for me is to make sure we stay connected as a team because we finish, let's say we finish in York day one, everyone just goes to the room and goes in the hotel rooms, which can happen like most teams can.

Thank

We lose the spirit that is so important with the group. And I don't want us to lose the spirit, because it's the thing that is the thing I enjoy the most in the week, having us together, people laugh, seeing people have a good time. So the challenge for us is how we can create that bus travel environment in a hotel still so that in terms of prep from a nutrition point of view, I don't, we

We just get on.

Was there a point early on though where you said, you know, I need to have what I want to have?

No, James might say yeah. What I said to really early on, I cannot, even as a player, right, I don't want to eat plain pasta and tomato sauce. I just don't want to eat it. I've been a rugby player, I want some meat, some chicken, or some fish, or maybe even a burger on the odd night. I want everybody to be happy with, and if you put something in front of me I don't want to eat, I'll eat it.

I'd rather enjoy it.

The bacon butties, you will not believe how big they are for the team. And it's crazy, isn't it? I do not eat bacon at all during the year, but among the challenges, between 10 and 12 at one of the stops, there has to be a bacon butty there for everybody. And you should see the mood go up. The cyclists are bouncing again, they're out the saddle, they're rapping, the music's pumping, and they're telling jokes. It's just a different feel.

I'll be.

the most asked question over the week. What times have they come? Is it the next stop? It's like, we get asked all the time.

The

The prep is really important. And if we had a bit longer, I share with you what I've tried to do with the running to get ready. But I've mentioned there's three things I need to get ready. I've to get my legs ready. I've just got to get used to running on tired legs all the time. So 12 weeks out, my training ups, and I try and block days together. So I'll do maybe a block of three half marathons, but walk a 10-kilogram, a block of three marathons.

The longest three day I did it at 62 K 60 66 or 62 61 three days after each other And therefore I've got to these ready right and then I do most of me running on me own

Yeah, I was about to say, how do you balance that nutrition and all the rest of

I don't I'm raw and I just go and I try and do it as I make it as hard as I can no music no mates on me own I Want it to be brutal because if it me training is brutal when I turn up with these guys Far easier and I know I've got media to do and I've no I've got people families to me And I mentioned some of the farmers minutes. I know all that's going on But all the training that I've got get this right as well because this will be the thing when these have had enough And this is both to tears and wants to go home

this will keep me going and so I've got to get that ready too. And then, yeah, when we're on the training runs, I very rarely take gels with me. I don't take, I ran a marathon, London Marathon morning, I ran a marathon at home and I didn't take any drinks with me. So I'll do stuff like that because I know what's coming in September and I make it harder than what it should be because I'm not just getting legs ready, I need to.

I you to hear that he's doing that. you go, no, don't do that or you, yeah, whatevs, whatever.

do it anyway, it's kind of, you know, like with the athletes I get paid to work within my professional capacity. We do gut training and it's much more meticulous, but...

This isn't a typical challenge, Kev isn't a typical athlete. we very much manage, we manage the damage. It's our job to try and mop things up and keep Kev on the right track, but we're not there to beat him with a stick and tell him what we've learned from other sport environments or what the textbooks say. It's kind of, how can we support Kev?

And I'm not daft, am you, right? I've been around professional sport for a long time. If I don't listen to them, it's on me, isn't it? It's on me. And if that means then we fail, well, it's a fair amount of responsibility because I've not listened to them. So it's a point that's having that expertise around you and have got wonderful expertise around us. The best. It's a point that's having it, but I'm not going to listen. And there might be times when I go, no, I don't want to do that. But five minutes later, I go, James, you've got that drink. I'll drink it. Because what?

Do you know? They know. They know and I'd be crazy enough to tap into it so they're brilliant. There's 16 of us, they all play a role, they're all class. Without sleep and nutrition, I can't get the week done. I just can't. So it is so important. I typically, and James will know this, I don't eat a lot of carbs, typically in my diet I don't. I never have, I didn't when I played. But when we have this week, it's free for all.

And it's a week. It's a great week.

And James, give us something to compare to. You do the Tour de France with the cyclists. Again, an epically long challenge day after day after day. How does it compare with what you're doing with Kev and the planning and the nutrition and what you make them have?

It's pretty similar in a lot of respects. Yeah, you you've got the same, the media, the logistics.

We've got much less people, so like in the Tour de France, know, we don't have to wash bottles, we have 200 more bottles we can fill every day, whereas we're scrubbing, me and Ben are scrubbing bottles in the hotel bath and mixing them, but yeah, it's similar. We try and be planned and organised, but also have, you know, plan A, B and C, because we know things are gonna go wrong. Whereas in the Tour de France, you've got closed roads.

You know, it's from A to B. You've got support vehicles and things like that. we have to, we have a plan A, B and C, but we have to think on the fly as well and be creative sometimes just to get it done.

Has working with Kev on the challenge you've done changed the way that you view working with the professional athletes that you work with? You are a professional athlete, but you know what I mean in that profession.

environment.

I think it reinforces that successful teams work well together and it takes time and experience. We've worked together as a team now for six years and actually the point is we know what each other can do or going to do, need each other to do without having that conversation or without...

offending each other if something needs to be done and that's the bit that just comes with that experience. But I think that's the same as elite sports and team sports. The most successful teams have that gel and have that core and have had that for a long time and I think that's the bit that kind of maps over really nice into how we function, how we work and how we all behave with each other.

I think as well the main difference from what we do with Kev and professional sport is in professional sport, whether it's a team sport, there's so many agendas, know, there might be a player whose contract's up, there might be someone who doesn't like the boss, there might be somebody who is playing against their own. There's so many agendas where we've got a real clear vision. We're trying to support Kev to complete the challenges, to raise as much money in Rob's legacy. So it's really clear, no one's there for their own.

That's the kind of guiding star. So when everyone has that, then it's easier. There's no bickering or arguments or people having their own ideas. It's very much what do we need to get through the challenges. It's as simple as that.

I remember I was going to share with you just a couple of stories because it's not only what you put in your mouth that feeds you, it's some of the people we've met and they've become really powerful and none of us can prepare for some of these interactions. There have been so many with &D families but I'll share two with you because they're the two standout moments for me. We ran in Swansea last year, it was day four, it was absolutely bouncing it down all morning and we turned up at a rugby union club called

anybody knows anything about the Rhinos, well you'll have heard of a guy called Lewis Jones, was an absolute star from Welsh Rugby who came and was a legend at the club and it's Lewis Jones' former club. The week before we set off on the challenge a 14 year old boy had passed with MND from South Wales, a young lad called Kyle Sienafsky. His parents and his brother came to visit the rugby club.

And as I turned up, there's a couple of hundred people waiting for us in the rain. It's bouncing down. And they tell me, Kyle's parents and his brother are for you upstairs. Well, we've got a 25-minute window to do everything in this. But the most important thing in that window is to go and sit with his family and spend some time with them. And I go and do that. So when I talk about that is when I come out of that meeting, because nothing prepares you for that. There's no counseling. There's no...

There's no pre-meeting where they say, you need to say this or you need to say that or, you know, that this has happened and so you're trying to work out your way through. You're tired because you're day four, you've done three ultra marathons, you're halfway through on your fourth and trying to navigate through that is difficult, yet so powerful because I might not eat as much as I would typically would at that stop, but I'm high-fueled when I come out of there. I'm ready to run.

And the guys, when I have an interaction like that, and they know and they've not been a part of it, will know, Kev's gonna run quicker now. So trying to be able to control some of that as well. But that connection, that spirit piece we're taking is fuel at times. Another one, we ran through Alifax. Year three, we were running from Murrayfield in Edinburgh to Old Trafford. And the last day, this guy comes running across the road and we'd just had a stop. We're about 12 miles from.

Manchester and he said can I have a photograph with you? And I like looked at him and I said, you can mate but can you carry on running with us and take a selfie? He looked like a fit guy and he said it's not for me. It's for my dad. He's got MND. So we all stopped. He ran over the road and wheeled his dad out in a wheelchair. His dad had a mask on and an oxygen canister in the back and he came over and his dad had

floods of running down his face but saw us and had a smile from ear to ear. It a real strange mix of emotions for us. And we have this photograph with this guy, his son wheels him back over, ten minutes later this car screeches up next to us and I'm thinking, dear, who's upset someone here? And this guy jumps out and he comes over and he grabs hold of my hand and he's running with us and it's the same guy whose dad we just had a photograph with and he says, I can't thank you enough for that.

My dad's been watching you on BBC Breakfast all week because it's our last day and he said he's not been out the house for two years and all he wanted was a photo with you today so when you talk about nutrition it's really important to talk about what's going in but we're also getting fed in other ways just because of just how brilliant some of those interactions are, how sad and tragic and devastating they are at times but also when you sit back and reflect on it because we all talk about them when we finish each

each block and each day just how beautiful those interactions are.

how powerful they are. And that's the heart I guess isn't it? Yeah. Gentlemen thank you very very much indeed for your time and the best of luck with number seven. Ladies and gentlemen.