Rethinking Comics kicks off with a deep dive into the emotional rollercoaster of Ice Cream Man issue #5, aptly titled "Ballad of a Falling Man." Right off the bat, the hosts, Josh and Joshua, explore the heavy themes of suicide, existentialism, and the complexity of human relationships, all wrapped in the chilling narrative of a man plummeting from a corporate skyscraper. As they dissect the juxtaposition between the protagonist's reflective descent and the obliviousness of those trapped in their mundane office lives, they shine a light on the often-ignored reality of mental health and the weight of our choices. With a blend of insightful commentary and personal anecdotes, they invite listeners to ponder what it means to live authentically in the face of mortality. This episode serves as a sneak peek into a special series, Rethinking Comics, enticing fans to join both the Rethinking Faith patreon community and to become an official member Systematic Geekology for deeper, exclusive content that promises to challenge and engage comic lovers and theology nerds alike.

Rethinking Comics kicks off with a fascinating discussion about Ice Cream Man #5, where the hosts dive into the existential themes woven into this horror comic. Joshua Noel and Josh Patterson explore the complex characters that confront life, death, and the meaning behind their choices, particularly focusing on the character Bill, who jumps from a corporate building contemplating his life and the relationships he’s left behind. The juxtaposition between Bill's last moments and Veronica's frantic quest for survival serves as a poignant reminder of the weight of our choices and how we live our lives. With humor and heart, the hosts engage in a deep conversation about the implications of suicide, mental health, and how our lives are intertwined with those we love, even after they are gone. Throughout the episode, listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own lives, the choices they make, and the legacy they leave behind, making it a compelling and thought-provoking listen.

Takeaways:

• In this episode, the hosts dive deep into the existential themes of 'Ice Cream Man' #5, exploring how the comic reflects real-life struggles with identity, meaning, and mortality.
• The conversation highlights how the characters' experiences in the comic serve as a metaphor for our own lives, challenging listeners to reflect on their relationships and choices.
• Listeners are encouraged to engage with difficult topics such as mental health and suicide in a meaningful way, recognizing their impact on personal narratives and community.
• The hosts emphasize the importance of community and relationships in shaping our identities, echoing the comic's exploration of what it means to truly live versus merely survive.

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You can also continue to follow Rethinking Comics on the Rethinking Faith patreon page:

https://patreon.com/RethinkingFaith

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For more comicbook discussion, check out our YouTube series, "Comicbook Ketchup":

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9e2Tuor8cmMBpdjYnZywp914Lyvf6KKB&si=mcbN1aSA3FgOlp0i

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Welcome to Rethinking Comics, a collaborative podcast series from Systematic Geekology and Rethinking Faith.

I am Josh Patterson, a former pastor turned brewer with a deep love of theology and philosophy. Although I don't always wear the label comfortably, Christianity seems to be baked into who I am.

Currently, I find myself drawn into process in radical theology and and have made friends amongst the mystics.

And I'm Joshua Null, a former youth pastor and comic book geek. Currently, I find myself drawn to open and relational theology, yet still clinging to a love of historical, biblical and even creedal theology.

Even still, I have found sometimes the stories that have been the most meaningful to me are not always found in sacred text, but occasionally are found in comic books and graphic novels instead. I've invited my friend Josh Patterson to share in some of these stories that have meant the most to me personally, and he said, sure.

We want to invite all of you to join in this journey with us together.

We may not always agree with one another or the messages we find in these stories, but we do respect one another and the teams of people it takes to put each of these comics together. And we believe we are all bearers of the image of God.

So whether you're a theology nerd, comic book geek, or if you're just curious about our journey, we thank you for listening and hope that we can all grow together as we engage each of these stories earnestly as our genuine selves. Shall we begin?

All right, thank you guys so much for listening and supporting our shows. Wherever you are listening. As mentioned in our introduction, this is both Systematic Ecology and the Rethinking Faith podcast.

Not on the main feed, just for our supporters.

Even if you're a free supporter, we appreciate all the time and just we appreciate your effort to supporting us even if you don't have the financial oomph behind it. Listen, I'm poor. I get it.

I think we are also going to be putting, or I'm going to be putting this on the main feed of Systematic Ecology on All Souls Day. So if you are listening there, you want to hear more stuff like this.

This is the first of a new series we're doing called Rethinking Comics and it will be usually only available on the Systematic Ecology website for members, even free members, as well as the Rethinking Faith podcast Patreon for free. So follow one of those things. Or both. Preferably both. Cool people do both.

If you want to hear more of these, this is where we're going to be engaging some of this comics and novels that have meant a lot to me, that I'm like, man, I want a smarter person than me to talk to about these things. So I tricked Jay Patty into talking to me about it.

Oh, man.

So first, if people have not heard Rethinking Faith and they're on here because it's like systemic ecology and they're like comic books, do you want to tell them something about yourself and what the Rethinking Faith podcast is?

Yeah, sure. So, geez, where to begin? So I used to be a pastor. I'm ordained.

I'm an ordained minister of the gospel, and I served in vocational ministry for about six years.

It's definitely more philosophically and theologically complex. So I like interviewing People with PhDs who wrote Cool books, and we have a lot of fun. So that's kind of what goes on over there.

I also do a lot of, like, interfaith dialogue. You know, I hang out with atheists from time to time. So, yeah, it's a. It's a fun space where really, no question, honestly, is off limit.

And it's a cool space to.

I mean, it's in the, you know, in the name of the show, rethink one's faith in a space that's, like, I don't know, safe to do so with other people that are also asking big questions. And like I said, nothing really is off limits, so.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's a bit about what I do, man.

I. I've always loved your show. Before I met you, actually. Yeah, you. You were one.

One of the handful of people that, when I went in my first theology beer camp, I was like, oh, my God, that's this person. And they're like, dude, I'm just a podcaster. Chill.

Yeah, that's fine. Yeah.

So systematic ecology, for those who don't know what that is, if you're if you're listening on Rethinking Faith. So I'm Joshua Noel. I grew up Pentecostal, became Lutheran, did a whole thing. I got in trouble with my church for not even, like, liberal thinking.

It was just kind of like reading the Bible. Okay. Anyway, that's a whole other thing.

I got in trouble with church and struggled a little bit with where I belonged, but still felt like I needed to be doing ministry. So I started the whole church podcast, which was gonna be like, church unity.

And I was like, oh, yeah, that'll be a nice, easy topic because everybody wants to get along, and it's not a nice, easy topic for those wondering. I was severely mistaken. But. So we've been doing that for, I think, like, seven years, eight years, something crazy.

We've been doing the whole church podcast for a really long time, talking about church unity, ecumenical stuff, talking to church leaders from more progressive circles, more conservative circles, trying to figure out, like, where the common ground is. And it was a lot harder and continues to be a lot harder than I ever thought.

At one point, I had Pastor Will Rose on because I was like, hey, let's have a Lutheran on to talk about Lutheran stuff. And then we started talking about comic books, and I was like, well, I want to do that again. So I tried to find more excuses.

And honestly, the way Systemic Ecology started was I wanted him to do a podcast about comic books so that I could listen to it, but I wasn't able to talk him into doing it, so I started one with him in it, Right.

And then it kind of branched off of the whole church, and now it's kind of like its own ecumenical work of, like, all these different people from different faith backgrounds who enjoy pop culture, whether it be, like, anime, manga, comic books, sports, Taylor Swift, you know, whatever.

And we're trying to engage honestly with the stories, the narratives that are being told in pop culture from a shared Christian point of view, but very much different faith tradition. So trying to come together and have these conversations and sometimes really challenging conversations.

One of my co hosts, Christian Ashley, is in really conservative Christian. He's, you know, he's Southern Baptist. I am. I still. I don't.

I don't like calling myself a progressive Christian, even though I guess I probably am at this point. I think, like, I'm more in the middle, but, like, as culture shifts more right, the middle has become left. I don't know if I have changed.

But anyway, you know, that that is what it is. Christian is definitely more conservative, is the point.

And we both enjoy the series Supernatural that talks a lot about God and free will and control, and we engage questions and we don't agree about it, and we struggle with that. So, yeah, that's kind of what systematic geekology does. And it's fitting that I was a K owner. We have a lot of comic book stuff over there.

Some of the stories that mean the most to me, though, aren't like, that mainstream. It's not always like, the Green Lantern or the Superman. Today's Ice Cream Man, a lot of people don't know who that is. It's like horror genre.

Not from, like, the two big Marvel or dc. This is like Image Comics. And Ice Cream man overall has meant a lot to me. Continues to mean a lot to me. And some of these stories do wrestle with.

You know, I had Josh Patterson on, I think, almost exactly a year ago. We had you on. We talked about a Swamp Thing comic. And he makes a line that you used in your intro, basically talking about process theology.

And it's like, these are the comics that I want to talk about in this series is more of the stuff that I'm like. This is actually intellectually challenging, mind you. I'm the kind of guy who. I love that stuff.

I'm also cool with, like, hey, look, that Avengers look. Hulk just took Loki and mashed him around. That was cool. Like. Like, I do both. I hold both.

Um, yeah, which is fun because you're gonna see systemic ecology. We're gonna do a lot of fun stuff for Halloween.

And that's why I wanted to release this on All Souls Day, because, like, I'm all for the fun Halloween. Trick or treat. Look at the cool monster movies. But I also think it is important that we engage with this stuff about death, suicide.

What does it mean to honor the dead?

Whether it be saints, you know, in All Saints Day or just All Souls Day, those who gone to force, like my grandparents, that I like to honor and light a candle for on this Sunday. I will probably have already done this by the time you're listening to this, guys. And that kind of stuff is important to me.

One of the biggest episodes we did on systematic ecology talked about that thing. I'm struggling. Dia de los muertos. Is that right?

Dia de los Muertos. Thank you.

Yes.

The Day of the Dead. Forgive our lack of Spanish.

The point is, one of the bigger episodes we did was me, Will Rose, and then my friend TJ Black was also one of the hosts on systematic ecology. We talked about the. Yeah, we talked about the show, the. The movie Coco.

And we talked about that in light of all of these holidays, Halloween and more, and to me, it's just become an important tradition. Not just that. I don't know, for whatever reason, this is, like, probably my favorite church holiday is All Saints Day and All Souls Day.

I love this weekend, and I think it's important on our show that, hey, especially since a lot of Christians are scared of Halloween, that we engage with the fun pop culture of it. But I still want to have this, like, hey, let's talk about death. And I feel like I said that, too. Happy. Let's talk about death, guys.

Well, I mean, Joshua, I think you already know this, but, you know, I have a memento mori tattoo on my arm, which, for listeners who don't know, that's Latin for remember you will die or remember your death. So I have, like, a skull with roses, and there's lyrics from a shoot.

What's the band Fit for a King, which is, like a heavy band, and it says, death will know my name. So I'm here to talk about death. I mean, come on, Josh. I wear black every day. You know, black T shirt, black skinny jeans. I paint my nails black.

I listen to emo music. I fit the bill.

Yeah, I think it's funny because it's like, I don't know, I find myself really peculiar because I think that most people see the side of me that's always like, Captain America and kingdom hearts and fun, pretty colors, which people just misunderstand Kingdom hearts when they do that. But, you know, Disney, you know, I'm associated with Disney a lot. I love Disney, so I think a lot of people miss that. Like, I also love sad songs.

Sad. Like, I love. I like talking about death. It's kind of weird. My favorite Christian song, actually is a king's kaleidoscope. It's called a Prayer.

But it's a song he wrote after his son died. And I think his son died by suicide, I'm pretty sure. And in the lyrics, he's. He's talking to God, asking, where are you?

He says, where are you when the fear is fucking violent? And to me, that line, I'm like, that might be one of the lines I would tattoo on myself. Like, where are you in the fear is fucking violent.

And I love it. Like, in Christian, does to Jesus be like, I'm right there with my son died. And I was like, oh, man.

You know, I'm not that kind of literalist Christian all the time. But those lyrics, I don't know, they.

Get to me yeah, no, it's. It's good, man. I think. I don't know. I think it's important our. Our culture does such a bad job talking about death.

Um, and, I mean, just even think about how we behave when someone gets old. What do we do? We put them in a fucking home so we don't have to see them. Like, same with people who are.

Or sick or have disabilities, like our culture does. We don't want to see those things. And, you know, the TV is constantly selling.

You, like, buy this product to look younger or, you know, this will make you live longer, or you have, like, these technocrats out there that are spending billions of dollars trying to figure out how to make themselves live forever. So, like, this rejection of death, I think is a.

Is a major issue, and I think it's actually healthier when we can acknowledge the fact that we will die and then live our life accordingly out of that place, you know? And you mentioned songs that you like about death.

There's one, if I can mention it, there's a song called Cigarettes and Saints by one of my favorite bands called the Wonder Years. And the song, I read it in two different ways.

It was intended to be written in the sense that, like, his buddy passed away from a drug overdose, but you can also read it as if it's a critique of the church. But, yeah, he has, like, these. These crazy lines. And actually, I'm trying to, like, figure out.

I want to write about this on my substack, because he goes through and he talks about, like, twice a week, I go past the church that held your funeral, and he talks about, like, not liking the pastor, and, like, the pastor called you a sinner, but he. You know, he doesn't even know. He didn't even know your name.

And then he goes on to talk about, like, I lit you a candle in every cathedral across Europe, and I. I hope you know, you're still my patron saint. And then he gets to this part. Yeah, he gets this part.

And this is why I want to write about it, because there's, like, a radical theology aspect here where he says. Where's the line? Exactly. Yeah. So he has this bit where he says, I'm sure there ain't a heaven, but that don't mean I don't like to picture you there.

I'll bet you're bumming cigarettes off saints. And I'm sure you're still singing, but I'll bet that you're still just a bit out of key.

That crooked smile pushing words across your teeth and then, like, the song continues and goes on, but, like, that song wrecks me. I listen to it like multiple times a day.

Yeah, I got the YouTube pulled up. As soon as we're done, I'm going to.

Yeah, yeah. And the music video. If you watch the music video, it's beautiful.

And it ties in nicely to our conversation, actually, because even though the song is about someone dying of a drug overdose, the music video wrestles with suicide.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's. It's really. It's beautiful.

And like the way the lead singer, the energy and emotion that he puts into his not just singing, but also his performance of his music is like, top notch. It's a quality song.

Yeah.

Would recommend. All right.

Yeah.

That's the Wonder Years. Now you guys have to send Joshua and I a check for plugging your stuff.

True. This show is sponsored by whoever we name. You have to pay us. Sorry, Disney. No, but the. Yeah, death is such an important topic.

And I know that sounds weird, but hey, it's All Souls Day. We're here for it. I wanted to mention a few things before we get into the actual comic. And today we're only doing one issue.

A lot of times we'll be doing like graphic novels in the series because it's hard to tell a whole story.

But Ice Cream man, even though there are some connective tissues across the issues overall, you could take individual, pretty much any individual issue of Ice Cream man. And it tells its own story, which I love. I love short form storytelling. Not just in comics, just in general. Like, short stories are still sick.

But yeah, that's a different rant for a different day. I do want to mention one friend I met. I met him a couple months after his dad had killed himself.

And so this is something the comic book does that I struggle with. Is it just, hey, suicide's a thing. And it's like non apologetic about it.

But I always feel like I have to apologize, like, oh, we're talking about suicide. I am so sorry. And hey, sorry if this is triggering. Like, I feel like I'm always like tiptoeing on glass or something.

But, yeah, so I had a friend, dad killed himself a couple times a couple months before I met him. I didn't know this till like years later because he just, he acted fine, cool, like, you know, whatever. One of the main parts of the story that.

And that's why I don't want to name drop.

And I'm trying to be careful not to like, give someone else's personal story away, but you know, I know he's talked about this on podcasts and stuff before. He's far more conservative than me. Again, Pentecostal circles is what we came from. So me and him, not Josh Batters.

I don't think you were ever in a Pentecostal circles, as far as I know.

No.

Okay.

I did get mixed in with some kind of, like, I guess essentially Pentecostals at one point in high school, and they were, like, hardcore into, like, all this demon shit. And that got really weird real quick.

That is.

That that's a story for another time.

It's crazy that that's a perfect segue to the rest of the story. Yeah. At different camps, people who are possessed by demons.

Again, I. I honestly, I've not decided how much weight I put into some of the stuff, because I do think there are spiritual realities, but I also think a lot of your charismatic competencostal circles that I grew up in, some people fabricate stuff for attention. I think I'm just gonna, you know, I don't know what's real, what's not real. I'm just gonna laying that out.

I have a lot of skepticism around it, but I still think there are spiritual realities. One of the demons mentioned something about his dad, and I remember that being, like, a big part of the story.

And I remember somebody else praying with him who wasn't there and spoke to him is like, hey, Jesus, God, the spirit wanted you to know that your father's with him.

And again, I don't know how much weight I put into that either, but how much comfort that gave him and how much he struggled with the whole idea that, you know, suicide is a sin. His dad committed suicide. His dad had a lot of mental health issues. But is that also was a guy who went around with Billy Graham.

He was part of, like, all the stuff that people typically think of as, like, the super Christian stuff. He was a very dedicated Christian.

And from all accounts of the story and for everything that, like, they can dig up, it seems like it really was just like a mental health. Like, he just. It was a bad day.

Like, it didn't even seem like it was like a. Oh, he wasn't really a Christian or like, you know, he wasn't really who he said he was. It's like, no, it seemed like he legitimately was exactly who he said he was.

Believed all of those things that, you know, even the stuff that I don't believe. But, you know, conservative Christians who are like, literal Bibles, like, he checked all the stuff like I think he genuinely believed it.

But that mental health thing was, like, a real issue, and it ended in suicide. And, you know, that was really challenge for all of their family.

And to him, it was really important to hear that prayer and someone say, hey, no, your dad is with the father. Again, I don't know how much weight I put into some of this literal stuff, like, if. I don't know if I believe there's heaven or not most of the time.

Right. But I think it's an important story and important to think on. I personally don't think suicide prevents one from being in the father's embrace.

Like, I think sometimes this stuff happens, and it's not because the person was a bad person. It's not because they were sinning. Sometimes you had a bad day, and, like, man, that sucks. And again, I don't endorse suicide.

Like, I hope no one ever chooses that route.

But I also hope that anyone who's dealing with this in their family and their friends don't carry this weight around, like, oh, they died in sin and now they're in hell or something. You know, Like, I just hope no one's carrying that weight around.

So that's why I wanted to bring that story up before we talked about a comic book about suicide.

Yeah, no, I. I appreciate it, man. And I, like, I agree with you. Life. Life is fucking hard. And Amen. You know, I've. I've read. I've talked about this on the podcast before, and you.

Actually, I might have even said this on an episode of Systematic Ecology, but I read a book by a philosopher I love, a British guy named Simon Critchley, and he wrote a book called Notes on Suicide. And it's. I mean, it's a philosophy of suicide, essentially.

And he goes through, like, nihilism and, you know, he, like, studies suicide notes and all this kind of stuff. And ultimately, like, to sum up his.

His bit on it is like, he thinks that ultimately suicide is impossible because he thinks it's murder of the hated other, except the hated other just happens to be oneself.

Or like a more philosophical way of saying it is, is Critchley says that when a person dies by suicide or commits suicide, what has happened is the subject.

So Josh Patterson has reduced himself to an object and then sought to eliminate the object because, you know, he put all of the, you know, weight and problems on that object, and if we can get rid of the object and problem solved. But what's interesting is Critchley, in this book, he also does not endorse Suicide, he says suicide is not. Is too optimistic.

And if you are truly a nihilist, you would not kill yourself because that's putting too much optimism in the impact that your death would have. You really think the world would be a better place if you kill yourself? That's not very nihilistic. It's too optimistic. So it's an interesting book.

I highly recommend it.

But that, you know, when I first read the idea that, like, suicide is the murder of the hated other and it just happens to be yourself, that wrecked me. It's like some of the saddest shit I've ever read.

Yeah, well, that's. That's heavy. I. I do remember where you said that on one of my shows. So I'm going to plug it like a good podcaster to make TJ happy.

It was actually on the whole church podcast recently, we talked about cussing and what kind of language we should be using. And we actually got into a little bit of how, like, guys just need to do a better job of telling that. Each other that they love each other.

And, yeah, I've actually been working on that and trying to tell you and Ryan and everybody how much I care about you guys more. More since that episode. So I'll try to plug that episode down below too, because I thought that was a really good conversation.

I thought it, like, this is going to sound dismissive.

I don't mean it to be dismissive, but when I saw that you released, like, an edited version of that podcast so people could listen to without cursing, I did chuckle to myself, like, I get it. Like, well done. But I did think that was funny.

I actually only did it because I thought it was funny. Like, so many people were asking me for it. And then I was like, how do I do this?

And then I was like, what if I put a church organ sound over every curse word? And I was like. I listened to myself do that for, like, one minute, and I was like, no, this is fucking funny. I'm doing this. That's why that exists.

Good stuff. Yeah.

If I didn't think it was funny, they weren't getting it, but. Oh, man. Okay.

So, yeah, let's actually talk about the comic book a little bit, and I'm gonna give a little bit of context because I. I thought that you didn't need any for this, and I think for the most part, you probably didn't. But there was some stuff that I was like, oh, wait, some context might have helped.

So this is Ice Cream man issue number five that we're Talking about. It's titled Ballad of a Falling Man. It's someone who jumped off the top of a corporate building.

This is written by W. Maxwell Prince, who I talked to before and was open to being on the podcast, and I forgot, so I need to reach back out. Art. Art was by Martin Morazo. Colors by Chris o'. Malloran. Lettering by good old neon.

Guys, I'm terrible at pronouncing names, which is why I usually have, like, TJ or somebody on here, and I make them do that part. So if I said anything incorrect, I apologize. Man. Shout out to all the people who worked on this comic. It was to me.

I thought it was a great work of art and I loved it.

I wanted to break because, like, I read when Ice Cream Man Pandemic came out was the first one I picked up, which I think was technically the first time they reveal Ice Cream man is actually Satan Boiler alert. And I loved it so much that I had, like, I picked up an omnibus. I'm like, I'm going to read all this.

Like, I just started reading it, like, in each one's kind of like a little short story. I mentioned it before. I mean, it's some context, but I want you to know, like, for why I chose this as one that was particularly meaningful to me.

I have this odd of like one through 15 issues, and I was gonna read them all straight and I hit this one and I had to put the book down. Like, it hit me hard. I was like, I. I actually. I need to think about what I just read. Like, I can't just keep reading. I need to think about this one.

And I guess I don't think I would call it prayer.

It feels weird and kind of hipster of me to say I meditated on it, but I guess that's technically what I did is like, I put it down and I was like, what did I just read? What does this mean? And I really had to struggle with it for a minute because, like, it. I don't know if it sucked. At first.

I really thought Ice Cream man was more nihilist. Turns out I think I'm going to put it more in the existentialist camp because it's not saying there's no meaning. I'll get to that in a minute.

The context I wanted to bring. And then I'll let Josh, since he's more read on philosophy, kind of talk a little bit about existentialism if he wants context.

I wanted to bring up Ice Cream man is appears in some of the comics, but not Every comic, he's not in all of them. And basically you kind of see in different issues where, like, he's kind of pulling the strings, but he's not always directly involved.

And there's, you know, different monster of the week or some kind of terrible thing. Sometimes you just see one. At one point, you just see someone living a really ordinary life in the suburbs. And it's like, that was the horror story.

So each of these, this is horror comics. It's supposed to be horror in the classic sense of the word. Not like, oh, jump out scary. But more of a holy shit, that's terrifying.

Or, oh, God, is that my life? You know, it's supposed to make you think about yourself in kind of a terrifying way, not in a jump scare kind of way. Yeah.

So Ice Cream man was the right word. It's a very existential comic.

Yeah. Yeah. I think the only other character that needs to be brought up, Caleb, is kind of like.

It seems like he's hunting the Ice Cream man down at this point. They don't give you a ton of context, but he's just like a cowboy who is, for some reason going after the Ice Cream Man.

So you don't know a ton about him, but he has shown up before. In this talks, one of the characters talks about Lickety Splat. He uses that phrase a few times.

And that's because the Ice Cream man usually says lickety split. So it's kind of like a nod to that. I think that's the main context thing as far as, like, in comic book, what you needed to know.

Existentialism, Josh, why is this more that and not nihilist? And why do you think it took me a minute to really realize what I was reading? Analyze me.

Yeah, yeah. No, you're good.

So the existentialism, the way that I like to think about it is to phrase it, basically to put it in conversation with the big question. So when we are doing existential thinking, it's basically assessing the fact.

It's recognizing your finitude, the fact that one day you are going to die. That could be five seconds from now.

That could be five minutes from now, five hours from now, five days from now, five months from now, five years, whatever, you are going to die. And when you, like, contemplate your finitude, recognize that and accept it, how then shall we live? So for me, that's what existentialism is.

Or, like, that's an easy way to kind of talk about it. And so why this particular comic, I think fits that bill better? I mean, The.

So the suicide aspect definitely feels more nihilistic because basically the dude jumps off the building and it's like, this is it. It's all done. Whatever. It doesn't really seem to care. That's very nihilistic. There's no meaning, there's no point.

However, the other character, and forgive me, I forget her name is a. Veronica.

I think I wrote it down. Yeah, Veronica.

Yeah, I think it's Veronica. So Veronica, however, is going through her office space and asking all of these huge existential questions, like, what am I doing here?

Does my job matter? Am I just stuck? So, like, those are existential questions because they're asking about one's being in the world, how one.

Like, that's another way I talk about existentialism is. Is what we choose to do, how we choose to be in the world in light of the fact that one day we will die.

So, like Dr. Aaron Simmons, philosopher, phenomenologist, Shadow. Yeah. Used to be the head of the.

Or the president, rather, of the Soren Kierkegaard Society, which Kierkegaard listeners, if you don't know Kierkegaard, was one of the big names in existential philosophy, continues to be. Also happened to be a Christian. So when anyone tells you that you can't be Christian and existentialist, the Bible is an existential false read job.

Yeah, but like, how.

How Aaron likes to talk about this is he uses the word faith, and he's not necessarily talking about faith in, like, a Christian sense or, like a Muslim sense or a Buddhist sense, and, like, what is your religion? But he's asking about a fundamental disposition in the world, and then he defines faith as risk in a direction.

So when we contemplate the fact that one day we will die, we ask ourselves the question, what is worthy of my finitude? And then we risk ourself in that direction.

Mm.

So for me, love is worth it. When I contemplate my finitude, or Paul Tillich asks, you know, says, faith is your matter of ultimate concern. And for me, love is that.

So for me, my existential disposition is I'm always going to risk myself in the direction of love, because when I contemplate my finitude, when I think about one day I will die, so what is worthy of my finitude? Love is the answer. So that's kind of the existential bit.

And I think those are the kind of questions Veronica is wrestling with is like, what the fuck am I doing with my life? Why are these people in this office just, like, having their eyes ripped out by vultures and not seeming to care.

Yeah, yeah, it was crazy. Yeah, man. And I think the juxtaposition of the two. Two really makes it more. But I'll get to that in a minute.

I want to talk a little bit to Ice Cream man in general and how, like, I think I thought it was nihilistic because everybody died. And that seems to be, like, a theme in all of this. Like, everybody dies. Which, again, this is why I wanted to release this on All Souls Day.

But one issue, I don't remember exactly what issue it was, but I remember there was an issue where the person had been dead the entire time and everyone kept interacting with him and just no one noticed. And I think the point at the end of the comic book was for you to think, like, hey, would anyone actually notice if I was actually here or not?

Am I just an object in people's lives? And that's a very existentialist question, right? Of like, oh, wait a minute. What am I looking for? Does my life actually have meaning?

Am I living as if I'm going to die and that matters?

Yeah.

And, yeah, I think that just seems to be a clear theme throughout all of the Ice Cream man comics and a lot of horror in general to me. And I did an episode about this. Really weird about an episode about this on a different podcast called Some Joyful Noises. It's like music.

And I was comparing Noah Khan and Passenger and why I like Passenger more than Noah Khan, even though I love both, is, to me, sometimes existentialist in. In modern pop culture can be purely deconstructive of, oh, hey, you're not doing this right.

You're living as if, you know, like, death is going to happen. Death is going to happen. Death is going to happen. Oh, yeah, hey, whatever. And it verges on nihilism, but doesn't quite get there.

I like this where it's, like, more constructive existentialism of like, hey, wait a minute. Hey, you're living as if death doesn't matter. Do something about it. And that's, like, what a lot of Passenger songs are. And I love that.

And I think that's what this comic does, is kind of show, like, to me, what I really love that we're going to get into after we describe the plot. One guy is jumping off the roof, and he seems to have a better appreciation for what he's losing.

Like, as he's falling, he's like, hey, I had these people that I loved, and I cheated on my wife, but I loved both of them. And I had this. And he's accepted because he knows he's going to die. And he's like, I had all of it.

He's really appreciative of all of those things, knowing that there's no consequence because he's going to die anyway. Meanwhile, Veronica is going through this office, seeing vultures attacking people. Like, all this crazy shit. Everyone's just dying.

And she's like, I just want to survive, man.

And it was so interesting that one person is just fighting to survive while everybody's throwing their life at her and she's ignoring all of the things that she's living for because she's trying to survive. Meanwhile, there's another guy falling off. I guess I'm doing the plot summary. My bad.

Meanwhile, another guy jumped off the roof trying to kill himself. And while he's about to die, and there was, like, five seconds, he's really able to see his life for what it was and engage with that.

And I think that kind of the point of this issue in particular is, like, if you're just living to survive, sometimes you miss that. Hey, you have people who love you. You have messy relationships, you have good relationships. You have.

Maybe you have a terrible work life or a great work life. And, like, you're just living to survive, and you're missing all of it.

And sometimes people who are living as if they know they're about to die are more able to see, hey, I have all this. Even though I shouldn't have cheated on my wife, I love both of these people, you know?

Like, again, I hate that, like, the guy who fell, I actually think was probably a bad person.

Yeah.

But I really appreciate that he was, like, able to see his life for what it was and almost be thankful for it. I'm a big Thanksgiving guy.

Is.

It's November for those listening. So I'm like, I get that. And I think that's another thing existentialism can help us with, is live more thankfully.

But that's kind of my quick take on what else happens in this comic book.

I mean, that, like, that's the. That's the big. I mean, you nailed the plot points.

And, like, basically, as he jumps, he's, like, going through, like, basically almost like a confessional as he's falling. He's, like, confessing his sins before the world, knowing, like, splat is going to happen. Lickety splatter, whatever.

And Veronica is interesting because she keeps encountering all these different people. And, like, the first lady is, like, on the phone trying to, like, make sure she Gets paid. And a vulture, like, plucks her eyeball out, literally.

And she's still on the phone, like, oh, why is it dark in here now? Why can't I see? Still doing her thing. So, like, her work life is literally killing her.

And then, you know, Veronica stumbles upon a dude in the hallway who's like, guts are out. And he was like, oh, they told me that on the inside. I'm sweet. And they were right.

And so, like, he's, like, bought into this lie about, like, you know, whatever, and it's literally killing him. He's in, like, it's gross. His guts are out. There's, like, rats eating him.

And then, like, she goes and, like, finds this other guy in the office who she works with. And he is, like, confesses his love for her. Veronica, I want to be with you. And she's like, but you're married.

And also, you're married to Tim, so, like, aren't you gay? And he's like, fuck Tim. And he, like, pulls Tim's head out. And he was like, this is what I think of Tim. So, like, he killed him. Yeah.

And, like, is throwing himself after Veronica.

And so it's like, you know, the extent that people kill relationships in order, like, in really absurd ways to, you know, throw themselves at people that aren't even aware. It's like, all of it's just very crazy. And eventually, like, I think it might be in that scene where Caleb shows up and shoots.

Or the vulture shows up to attack Veronica to get her, and then Caleb shows up with an arrow and shoots the vulture and Veronica manages to escape. But, yeah, she's going through all of these existential questions and suffering and, like, why do I even work here? Like, what is this?

Which fits for me, dude. Because, like, I. I mean, to bring the.

If things weren't already low enough, one of my biggest issues is, like, I identify with Veronica the most in this comic because, like, I hate working in the corporate world. I hate that I have a 9 to 5 job. It's like, I don't. I feel like I don't fit in the system. And, like, everybody around me is being like.

Thinks that the system is helping them, when really I see it as killing them. Like, the vulture. And I'm, like, the only one who's like, why are we playing this game?

Like, does everyone not realize that this is no different than, like, kayfabe, like, WWE shit? Like, what is happening? And, like, I feel like Veronica running around and everyone's killing themselves and, like, are just kind of cool with it.

I'm like, I don't fit the system. What do I do?

Yeah, yeah.

You know, I didn't think about some of the juxtapositions of the secondary or tertiary characters that Veronica's engaging with Bill, because I. I think there's also some interesting corollaries there that I really hadn't even thought about because I was so busy focusing on the Bill versus Veronica thing that I'm like, oh, wait a minute, there's Tim, or the guy who was married to Tim. I don't remember that guy's name. Who is like, cheating on his spouse.

And it's killed his spouse so that he could be with the person he's cheating with. Meanwhile, you have Bill, who's like, man, I cheated on my wife.

And I hate myself for that because I love my wife, but I also love the person I cheated on her with. And instead of choosing to kill either of them, he killed himself.

And it's kind of like, man, which I do think a little bit of that it gets into weird weeds because, like, I'm open to polyamory. Different. You know, like, I'm affirming of different kinds of things. But I think for the most part, if you have a trusted, agreed upon.

What's the word I'm looking for? Agreed upon something.

Enthusiastic consent.

Yeah. If you have agreed upon being exclusionary with someone and then cheat on them, like.

Like, you know, like, to me, I feel like that kind of betrayal is a form of death to yourself even, because, like you said, you were one thing and now you're not that thing. Right. And again, I think it's different if you're in an open relationship, if you're in polyamorous, if you've talked to your partner about it.

But if instead you're lying to your partner, you're cheating on them, you're doing the kind of form of betrayal that's when I'm like, no, this is like a form of spiritual death enters that situation, which to me is no less real than actual death of like, hey, I pulled Tim's head off. Mind you, I don't canon either. It's just one of those where I'm like, yeah, the spirit of death is definitely there. So that was really interesting.

Glad you pulled that out.

Yeah, well, I mean, it's. But it's true, though. I think your point's well taken because, I mean, especially with the relationship thing, like, it is.

It is experientially experienced as a kind of loss, like, as a death, you Know, even if it's not like, a physical death, which sometimes makes it worse. Right. Like, knowing that there is a person that you love and care about in the world that is still very much alive, but to you is now a ghost.

Like, that's a kind of death. It requires the same kind of grieving.

Yeah.

You know, anyway, yeah, I. I've already missed my therapist. Says Josh with my therapist.

Yeah, no, I mentioned Passenger once, already, so I guess might as well. I forget the name. I think actually the name of the album is all the Little Lights.

And the song I was about to talk about is the song all the Little Lights, which is kind of weird. I remember first hearing that after a bad breakup. And I took that because, you know, he talks about, like, all the little lights within you. Each.

You're filled with all these little lights, and each one dies as you love is lost. Or something. Something along those lines. It's been a while since I've really listened to the song carefully.

And I took that in this relationship, and I was like, oh, yeah, a light died within me. And I know that sounds super like, whatever. I'm sorry, guys. It's just who I am. I got to be honest about some stuff.

But I remember really, it meaning a lot to me and being useful in that time of grieving when I lost this relationship very shortly after my grandfather died and I listened to this whole album on repeat, and I was like, yeah, a light within me died. And for a long time, I actually felt guilty that I used that song about breakup. When I'm like, man, it's so clearly about death.

And now I'm at a point in my life, and I'm like, fuck, it's about both, man. Like, yeah, like a light within me went out.

And the part of the song that I missed for a long time because I was focused on, like, the light went out is another light forms or comes to be when you form a new love, when you form a new relationship. And for me, that was really hard for me to grasp for a long time.

I don't know why, but for a long time, it was easy for me to grasp that loss was meaningful and that I had lost a lot. And it was hard for me to think of, like, wait a minute.

I've also gained a lot of new light in my life because it's funny, if I think about, like, the time in my life when that first came out, very few of those relationships are still in my life. TJ is one of the few ones that are, you know, a Lot of my family.

But now I'm at a point in my life where, like, I don't feel like I lost and all the lights went out and now I'm in darkness. But instead I'm like, man, now I have J. Patty, Ryan, Dos, Will Rose, you know, Samantha Perez. I have my wife.

I have, like, I have so much more in my life. And it's not like you guys replace my old friends because you guys are better, but it's. It's like, oh, hey, wait a minute.

It's.

Yeah, sometimes you lose relationships, but it's also important to remember you gain relationships. And just like the loss of a relationship can feel like death, the gain of a relationship should bring new life to you, I think.

New life. Yeah. Yeah. No, I. I'm with you, man. And that.

I think that that cuts across the board not just of, like, dating relationships, but, like, the loss of an important friendship or the loss of a community. Right. Like, so many people who experience the whole deconstruction thing and have to step away from church world, like, that's a loss.

Not only are you having your worldview taken away from you, which is something to be grieved, but you're losing an entire community of people. That's another loss. That is a type of death where, yeah, a light goes out. Especially too, like, when you're in relationship with people in.

In general. Again, friends, family, romantic, whatever. Your being is constituted by your relationship with that person.

Like, you do not know who you are outside of relationship with them. Like, in order for you to know who you are, it necessitates an other to tell you who you are. Like, I know our.

Our culture is hyper individualistic, and we do this like, rah, rah, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. But that's all it is. It's a lie. Like, all of us only ever exist in relationship to everyone and everyone else.

And so, like, when those things falter or start to fall apart, it's painful because, like, in a very real sense, who you are has been constituted by this person, by this family member, by this community, by this friendship. And you can't tell your story without them. And so, like, it's. It's not just a loss of another person.

It's a loss of self, which is the whole, like, the light turning off thing. Yeah, it sucks.

Oh, man. Listeners are tired of hearing me quote C.S. lewis's Four Loves.

Will is tired of having to take shots when I mentioned Kingdom Hearts, so I'll do both right now. CS Lewis and The four loves. One of the lines. This is the first time that this truth meant something to me, that I was able to grasp it.

He talks about friendship and how me and you and. Man, who's that? You know what? I'm okay killing TJ off in the scenario. That'll be fine. He won't be offended by it. Me, you, and tj.

You know, looks like we have, like, a really close friendship, the three of us, and TJ dies. And what CS Lewis talks about is like, I'm friend A, you're friend B, you're TJ's friend C. He uses A, B, C. I like names.

I like being personal with my death.

Yeah.

He's like, I didn't just lose TJ when TJ died, if the three of us hung out regularly. I also lost a part of Josh Patterson that only comes out when TJ's around.

Yeah.

And I'm sorry, pastors, if you listen to this and you're offended that I cheat, but I cheat on All Saints Day and All Souls Day, when they let me light candles for my family members that I've lost, I always light an extra one. And, like, this is in memory of the parts of me that only came to light when you were around.

But it's also to remind me of the parts of me that only exist because you were around. And to me, that's a really meaningful practice.

And I know it's not part of All Saints Day, and the pastors don't tell me to do this, but hopefully, I don't think anyone would stop me. I know Will won't stop me, so if I have to go to Will church to do it, it's fine. But, like, to me, I don't know, that's just as. Just as important.

Yeah.

Yeah. No, I'm the Kingdom Hearts cyan.

Sorry to make Will take a shot. Part of why I love Kingdom Hearts now.

For a long time, I didn't know why I loved it, and I just loved it because the world and things and nostalgia and the more I've grown, the more I've learned to love it for new reasons. Part of growth. You either learn to stop loving things or learning or learn to love it for new reasons. It's just kind of like how life works.

I've discovered what the games are actually about. And if you go through each game, each one is like, are you still you without this component? Are you still you without your heart?

Is like the original one. And then it goes, are you still you if you don't have Any of your memories? Are you still you without your body? Are you still you without your soul?

Is what I think is probably going to be next. You know, like, they have all these different scenarios. Like, are you still you without. Fill in the blank. Right?

And one of the most powerful lines in the first game, and I just played through it again recently because I'm a dork. I played through it three different times at once and heard the same.

Like, I actually watched the video for this part each time because I love it so much. It's like one of the bad guys takes your weapon, and it's because it's like your weapon goes to whoever has the strongest heart.

And he's like, look, I have a stronger heart than you. And then you end up getting it back. He's like, wait, how? You can't be stronger than me.

And the main character, who's like a little kid in this, and it's like the cheesiest lines ever. He's like, well, you're right. I'm not very strong, but my friends are my strength and my friends are my power.

And it's like the cheesiest, silliest line ever. And even, like, when I was a kid, I was like, I'm gonna skip this because if anyone sees me watching this, they're gonna make fun of me.

And now I'm like a full grown adult. I'm like, I'm gonna watch this full blast as loud as I can. Because that is the most true thing I've ever heard in my life. It's like.

Like, Sora is not Sora. Sora is Sora. With Genie, with Aladdin, with Hercules, with Kyrie, with every single person that he's made bonds with.

And that's why it's so important in these games that you visit all these different worlds and form all these relationships. Because you are your relationships.

Yeah, 100%. And that. Like, that. Yes. And that's why the friendship thing is so important.

That's why, like, you know, listeners will know Trip Fuller loves Lord of the Rings. What's Tripp's favorite thing about it? Is it about friendship? Like, that's like the Sam Frodo bit. Yeah, Crazy, you know, like the. What is the line?

I'm gonna mess that up. Because, like, secret. I haven't read Lord of the Rings.

But, like, don't tell Nick.

Yeah, don't tell Nick. Poke. Nick. If you're listening, I've definitely read Lord of the Rings, man. Don't.

Yeah, this is just a bit.

Nick, I'm Just gonna gaslight you into thinking I'm doing a bit. It's for the podcast.

But what's, what's the line where, you know, Sam, basically he tells Frodo, like, I can't carry the ring to Mordor for you, but I can carry you. And so he picks up Frodo and carries him to Mordor. Yeah, that's.

Yeah, I love that. It's so funny because, like, I love that, but I hate seeing the picture of like, wait a minute, why is there's one.

One line of footprints and Jesus, like.

Because I carried you.

I don't know why that bothers the hell out of me, but say I'm doing the exact same thing. I'm like, yeah, Sam. But I mean, I think that's what the. So you mentioned earlier, like, the loss of community.

Yeah, I don't think there's gonna be a huge pivot.

To me, I think that's part of my problem with the whole Jesus line is so many times so much of the Bible and these different faith things have been co opted by a certain group of people that sometimes I feel like ostracized me and I'm like, ah, I don't. But yeah, you know what? Lord of the Rings hasn't been co opted by that group. Group, totally. So, yeah, this, this version. And it is true.

I think it was really, actually really hard for me because I, I basically, I was teaching from a very conservative point of view, commentary on the book of Song of Solomon, basically saying the book is about sex. And here's the thing. Marriage, the way that it means in America wasn't always what marriage meant. Sometimes it meant this.

And this is why I think sexual activity and commitment are the things that should go hand in hand. And I wasn't even saying anything super progressive, right?

And because like, I said it online and children could read it, they were like, well, you will never be a youth pastor again. If you keep going down this ride, you will. You will be like, shipwrecked like Paul and you'll be stuck on an island and all this stuff.

And I'm like, oh. Like, I felt so dead inside, so dark. And no one I talked to because, like my closest friends, Spoiler alert.

For a long time haven't really been people in church. And I don't. I didn't feel like any of them got it. Like, none of them understood why I was so distraught from losing this community.

They were just kind of like, what do you mean? It sounded like they were jackasses. Like, I like I just don't feel like they got it. And I think that's part of why.

Going to theology, beer camp, meeting you guys. Even though I don't think we've ever explicitly talked about it, it's almost like I could tell, like, that same pain I felt, like, I.

Like, I could tell that you guys felt the same thing. And, like, we don't even have to talk about it. But that connection formed a relationship, and now, hey, new light, new community.

I mean, I hope that for everyone, but I don't want to say, like, hey, if you lost something, don't worry, it'll get better. Maybe it won't. Maybe it'll just keep fucking sucking.

And I hate that, and I'm sorry, but I also really hate when people are like, oh, it'll get better. This too will pass. Sometimes it doesn't fucking pass. And I just feel like sometimes we gotta be honest about that.

I'm really thankful that I did find a new community, but I think that loss is really important. So I wanted to highlight that.

Yeah.

Because, yeah, sometimes that shit's dark and it goes back to, like, all the little lights. Right. Yeah. This was supposed to be a Passenger episode you brought up.

They're another official sponsor.

Yeah, yeah.

The Wonder Years in Passenger and apparently Disney, so we should be crushing it financially.

Yeah. I hope you're all free members or patriots, because, like, apparently we're super sponsored.

But, yeah, one of the things, too, that you mentioned, I'm gonna pivot away because I just. I'm gonna sit on that one. I don't want to say any more about that, actually. I think, yeah, it's dark. Sometimes things are dark.

The book also shows kind of this corporate life thing and people straight up dying, having their eyes plucked out, not even noticing. And, like, the irony of, like, literally going blind and being blind to their own life because they're so consumed with work.

It's like, oh, man, that was those two panels alone. I feel like you could just frame it on your wall if you wanted to. And yet I think your corporate life is an important part of who you are.

Like, what you do for a job. Like, I don't think you can ignore it.

Like, if I were to tell someone who I was and never mentioned that I work at Chipotle and I love cooking, and I never mentioned that. Like, I learned all this stuff at Shutterfly and had my time there.

Like, I feel like I'm not giving you a full version of who I am, but it's also not what I live For. Yeah, so I thought that was an important bit because I don't think the comic was trying to say, completely ignore work. Work sucks.

Let's go to full socialism or, you know, whatever. Like, I don't think it was trying to say that, but it definitely was trying to make a commentary of, like, how we treat our corporate life.

Did you want to talk more of that? Because it felt like you had more to say about that than I did.

Sure. Well, yeah, sure. I mean, I think it's, you know, the cliche is work life balance, but I'll try to tie it in and make it personal.

So when I was ready, I'm going to use some Christian language just for you, Joshua.

When I was discerning, stepping away from my role in vocational ministry and I was working with a spiritual director, we discovered that I had conflated my vocation with who I was, with my identity. So Josh Patterson was wrapped up in the vocation. Pastor.

And so when I was stepping away from ministry, part of what was so difficult about it was I didn't know myself apart from my vocation. I thought, josh Patterson is pastor. And by walking away from that, I'm flipping the bird to myself. I'm flipping the bird to God.

I couldn't differentiate. And what I did with therapy and also a spiritual director is learn how to differentiate. Differentiate. Differentiate. Differentiate.

Yeah, we'll say it five more times. Differentiate. Anyway, you know, myself, like, who Josh Patterson is from my vocation, from my work.

And I think that's really important to be able to say, like, oh, no, actually, pastor is a game. I like to think about things in terms of games because they like having fun. Pastor is a game that I can play or that I get to play or when I was.

Which was helpful because then when I became a bartender and a brewer, I never made the mistake of conflating who I was with my job. I was like, oh, isn't this so much fun that now I get to play the game called Bartender, and I'm still Josh Patterson.

And then, like, even now, I, you know, I work for the state government, and it's just a hat that I wear. It's a game that I play. And that doesn't mean I don't care about my job. It doesn't mean I don't do a good job. Like, I'm a good team player.

I care about my subs. I do everything to the best of my ability. But when I leave, I leave my job at my job because it's not who I am.

And I don't think it should be who I am, you know? And maybe, you know, honestly, I do get jealous of people like my partner Noel. She is doing a job in a space that she loves.

So she works in animal welfare. She is the director of philanthropy and communication at the largest animal shelter in the state that we live in.

Sick.

And she fucking crushes it. She loves animals. She loves animal welfare. Her degrees in communication, so she's, like, thriving in this environment.

But also, too, I still think she can differentiate between who she is and her work. And so I think that's an important thing that the comic is kind of talking about, because Veronica still works there.

She sees all the craziness and she's still a part of it, but she doesn't allow it to consume her. And I think that's the message because, like, to quote Propaganda, who I love, if people don't know, hip hop artists, spoken word artists.

Check out prop stuff. Fantastic. He, like, makes this point like, look, we can sit around and bemoan capitalism all day long, but it's also the water that we swim in.

So you might as well learn how to swim. But just be aware that you are indeed swimming in water. And I love that. And I think that's maybe one of the things that the comic is nodding to.

So sorry, end of. I don't know how long that was. Five minute rant.

Yeah. You turned me onto propaganda recently, and I'm loving it. I'm loving it.

Prop is the shit.

Oh, man. Yes. So good.

Yeah.

It's interesting. In this comic, you see Bill jumps off the building and he is avoiding the problems. The people in the building don't even see the problem.

They're just being killed by it. And Veronica is the only person who's like, I want to live.

Yeah, it's like that. Have you seen that video? Sorry. This is ADHD talking.

I love it.

It's an old YouTube video of, like, two kids. They're two dudes, they're probably like 10, 11 years old, and they're skateboarding. And one of the kids hits a rock.

And, like, I don't know if you've ever skateboarded before, but the smallest pebble will stop your wheel. You'll just fly off. It happens to all of us. This kid eats it, and his friend is like, dude, I got that bail on tape. Like, are you okay? Are you okay?

And he was like, I figured out it was this damn ass rock. Like, this damn gay ass rock is. You know, I'm not condoning the language I'm just saying, this is what he said.

And he was like, do you want to do something weird, like pee on it? And the kid's like, no, I just want to live.

He's like, oh, that's.

You can live. But also, do you want to, like, pee on this damn ass rock that made you fall off your porn? God.

So funny.

So anyway, I just want to live. It's like, one of my favorite. That's great.

Oh, man.

You can live. I will send you the video.

Yeah, that's hilarious.

This. Damn.

I do think it's funny too, though. Like.

Like, think of this as, like, a horror comic ending with the series of how, like, Bill, no whore wants to die, is going to die doing a little memoir of his life as he falls.

Yep. Peace out.

All the people who are literally being eaten and shit in this building. No horror. They don't even notice that they're dying. Literally.

The only person who survives is the only one who is traumatized in horror, like, filled with the horror of everything that's happening. And I think that's one of those things that's, like, so weird.

It's like the only person who actually walks away from this is actually the person who was impacted the most from what happened.

Yeah. Is the one who, like, not to use, like, appropriate language, but is the one who is woke.

It's the one who's awake to what is happening and is responding to their environment accordingly. So. Hashtag stay woke, friends. Hashtag childish Gambiano, man.

Yeah. There's so much you could say about this comic, and it's just. I think everybody should read it for themselves. It's not a long read.

Not expensive on Kindle or anything.

Maybe five minutes.

Yeah. But I think it's like $2 on Kindle. If you don't have Kindle limited or whatever, I think it's worth it.

Yeah.

It hit me hard just going through. I think probably because the other issue is it's like there's a monster or someone else dying or they didn't know someone's dying.

And this one is like, people are doing it to themselves. And then I have to sit there and think, like, am I doing it to myself?

And I think that's probably the question they want you to walk away from, is like, am I killing myself? Maybe not literally, but, like, is there any way in which the way that I am living is actually killing my soul? You know? Yeah.

Yeah, I. And that's a huge. To bring it back. That's a huge existential question.

Yeah.

What is worthy of my finitude? Is what I'm doing worth the fact that one day I will die?

And like, like, this is one of the questions that I actually think, and people argue with me about this, that I actually think atheists bring a lot of credence into. And I think, you know, existentialism is often associated with atheism, which is fine.

But when I ask the question of like, what is worthy of my affinitude, I often feel that something like heaven is a distraction because if I have an escape that I can get to after this life, what the fuck is the point of my life currently? It doesn't matter. Especially if we're going to start talking like Calvinists and say like, no predestination is true, I have no say anyway.

Yeah, but even if we have free will and like, oh, I guess I could be good people or whatever, but it doesn't really matter if we're just gonna like, go fuck off for eternity somewhere like this finite life.

Why I actually think, and like, maybe I'm biased because, like, I only believe in an afterlife on good days, when I'm feeling happy most of the time I don't think it's a thing. I hope it is, but I don't think it is. I actually think that informs one's life more deeply because it's like, look, this is all we have.

So what is worthy of your finitude?

And that doesn't make, that's actually so, like on days when I still feel like saying I'm a Christian, having an, not having an afterlife, not having an afterlife makes me want to be a better Christian because the only opportunity, the only chance that I have to build the kingdom of God on earth as in heaven is, is right now. And I only, I get one shot. That's it. What impact am I going to have? In what ways can I love people?

In what ways, you know, can I improve flourishing not just amongst human, but again, you know, amongst all life, all creation. So like, when I, when I get existential and, and contemplate my finitude, I actually think the atheists have a good point here.

And I'm kind of comfortable with contemplating my life in light of the fact that when I die, I'm dead. And also, like, that's how the entire Hebrew Bible talks about death anyway, when you die, you're dead.

And that's why they were all like arguing like, oh, the resurrection is a thing, maybe it's not. And that's why the Jesus bill was controversial and why they're still Jewish people. That's grossly oversimplified.

Yeah, but so anyway, yeah, sorry, I.

Yeah, I. I struggle with whether or not heaven and hell are symbolic language or not. I struggle with a lot of this still.

And to go back to the comic and also tie in my problems with some of Christian traditions, is this death avoidance or death ignorance maybe is even a better way. A lot of pop culture, secular culture, outside of Christianity, whatever, it's like we're just going to ignore the fact that death exists.

We're going to put old people in homes, like all the stuff that you were talking about, the beginning of this, right? And it's like, yeah, that's a whole thing. And then a lot of the Christian circles that I grew up in, it's like, oh, there's a whole afterlife.

So this death doesn't matter. You're only living this life so that you can get to the real life. Because like, infinity, infinity is so much more than this one.

This one doesn't really matter. And it's like the exact opposite of existentialism.

And I don't know how many of the groups I grew up in did this, but I know a lot of groups do this where, like, they use that to justify being really shitty in this life because it really doesn't matter as long as we get people saved. It's all about the end goal. You know, they do the utilitarian stuff that I think's fucking stupid. That's a whole rant for another day.

And it's like, oh, well, it's all about eternity, so we're just going to keep people there. And heaven, hell, that's what matters. This life, who cares?

And to me it's infuriate because, like, even if heaven and hell exist, I cannot believe in a God who says he is love that wants us to behave in a way that only life after death matters. Because then it's like, why even have this life? Like, what is the point of this life if only the life after I die matters?

No point.

So it's still ignorance or avoidance of death. Like they're still doing that.

And to me, that's why I love the faith traditions that still take the time to celebrate All Saints Day, All Souls Day, and like, hey, let's acknowledge the fact that death is real and it's important and it matters to us. And I even really appreciate something that J. Patty turned me onto earlier this year that I've been studying a little bit more.

This idea of the divine consciousness of like, hey, maybe what we mean by Heaven is really like my grandparents. They still live on in me because I recall one of the biggest things to me, and I talk about this.

A lot, is like, the movie Coco Joshua.

I love them. But no, my.

My papa was telling me it's so funny because, like, he's like, you know, my dad always said, I love you, and ain't nothing you can do about it. And I remember always saying, like, papa, you've always said that that's not something your dad said. It's something you say.

And it's funny because, like, I say it now, and I'm like, man, what's funny is, in reality, I've never met my papa's dad, but in a way, he is living on in me because I'm still using this phrase that I identify. Like, that is who my Popeye is. Like, I say it because that is who he is, and I keep him alive by keeping that spirit alive.

Yeah.

And it's funny because I think that might be why he was doing it with his dad, even though he might not use the same language.

And that to me, like, that idea of, like, divine consciousness, of, like, that part of my grandparents still live in me, some part of my granny, where I want to look at the hummingbirds, and I'm going to take care of them and create little pollinator garlands. And all this stuff is like. Like some part of them continue to live on it. And like, I love the idea of heaven, and maybe I'll actually see them again.

But I want to live as though maybe only the divine consciousness part is what's true. And if the other part's true, too, cool. But I kind of want to live as if only that part's true.

Yeah, yeah. No, I feel you. And for, like. Excuse me, for listeners, I'll figure in briefly on what Josh was. Is pointing at. He's doing process theology.

So.

Process theology. So essentially, the. We're talking about divine consciousness within process thoughts.

Um, at the very least, you have what's called objective immortality, which means that everything that has ever existed lives objectively within the divine memory forever. And part of how process works is in each moment of becoming, the entirety of the past meets the possibility of the future.

Those two things kiss, and then there is a concrescence. A possibility becomes actualized, and now it exists.

And then that now exists fully within the divine memory forever and is brought into the next moment of becoming. And this goes on on and on and on and on. And so as people as like, well, basically everything we. Whitehead's Word is prehend.

We are able to prehend the past in its entirety, even if it's subconsciously. And so our loved ones that exist within the Divine memory, we prehend them in each moment of our becoming.

So they are very much still present to us and impact the Divine. Impact the divine's what the divine does. Impact us in each moment of our becoming. And so, like, that's really cool.

And, like, I'm comfortable if that's the best we get. I'm cool with that. I hope there's something more. But, yeah, that's. That's what Josh was pointing at.

Yeah. Yeah, man. I just. I'm glad I have a smart person here to like. Like, say the things that I just learned. Yeah, I.

You said it nicely. I just used big words that nobody knows what they mean.

You said in a way that's like, oh, wait a minute. What Josh said was smart. He just didn't know that he was being smart. I feel like I do that a lot. Like, I'm accidentally smart sometimes.

You did a good job.

But one of the things, too. This is, like, the last thing I want to talk about. When the guy was falling, he does ask, was I a bad person or was I a good person?

Something like that. And I find that so interesting.

None of the people in the workplace who are so consumed with work that they're dying and not noticing bother to think, am I being a good or bad person? Veronica, who's just trying to survive, which I think is the correct thing here, doesn't have time to think, am I being a good or bad person?

But the person who's just dying, like, I know I'm about to die, he's the one that has the time to think about this, like, existential question of, like, am I actually a good person? And I, like, I found that bit that they included that really interesting. Again, I do not promote suicide again.

But when I think about this again, and that divine consciousness kind of thing that we already brought up, my friend I mentioned earlier, when his dad died, the fact that he killed himself will forever be a part of his family story. But that's not the only thing. So is the fact that he carried the faith. So was the fact that he worked with Billy Graham.

So it's like, all these other things about him are still true. And I think about being a loser when I read this comic and I stop and think afterwards, I'm like, what does happen to his wife after this?

Does he ever found. Does she ever find out that he was cheating? What happened to the person that he was cheating with? Do they only keep the good things about him?

How does his suicide continue to affect their story? How does who he was, whether he was good or bad person, how does it continue to affect these people's story?

It's not going to affect his work life because it appears that that work has been destroyed.

But, you know, I still think these are important questions to answer because it's not just the fact that suicide occurred, but the person's life still continues to affect these people. Even though he chose to end his part of the story, his story still continues with other people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think the question of good person, bad person is interesting to me because I think, I think it's too binary.

I don't know who I'm quoting here, but this is not a Josh Patterson thought. I'm stealing this. The line of good and evil doesn't run between us and them, but it runs down the middle of each and every single one of us.

I think people are complex. People have parts, like, for risk of getting canceled for saying this. Like, there were parts of Hitler that were good in that.

Like, there had to be people in his life that he loved, that he, he found joy in doing things. Like, he was an artist. Now, of course, that doesn't mean what Hitler did is good. Now, like, what Hitler did was atrocious.

Hitler was like all of that. Evil, bad, all of it. But, like, he couldn't have been all evil, all bad.

And again, that's like, you know, low hanging fruit, the first example that came to mind. So forgive me, but even, like, if I think about myself, like, I like to think that I'm a good person, but I also know my own thoughts.

I know the, that I don't say out loud. Like, I know that the thoughts that I have that I choose not to act on and like, I. Some of those things are bad.

But like, am I a good person or a bad person? Like, I don't know. Like, I think it's. It's. I don't know, dude. It's. It's difficult.

That's like one of the more conservative sides, you know, Christian wise. I guess that I'm like, yeah, I don't know, man. I kind of get it. Like the whole people suck bit. I don't think that's the truest thing about them.

That's where I disagree with kind of like the whole total depravity thing. I don't think the fact that people suck is the truest thing about them.

I think the truest fact about people on days when I still believe in God is that, you know, God knows your name, knows your face, and gives a shit.

To quote Dr. Trip Fuller or like, you know, I've seen Tripp talk about the prodigal son and say that like, the truest thing about the prodigal son wasn't that he like ran away and blew all his dad's money, but the truest thing about him was who his dad was. His dad was still his dad the whole time. He was still the son that never changed. So why do we focus on all the bad stuff anyway? I don't know.

I'm gonna dig myself into a hole and get angry emails to systematic egology.

But I'll make it worse. I'll make it worse. First need to give Will an opportunity to drink. Kingdom Hearts, man. To me. And being a complete loser, I still get chills.

And sometimes my little Pentecostal comes out and I kind of want to speak in tongues when I think about this, an entire video game series, Kingdom Hearts, like the whole series is about like, what are you? Are you your body? Are you. So you know all the stuff I mentioned earlier, right? And do you know what the titular song is?

Like every single game menu plays a track that is Yoko Shimomura's classic piece titled Dearly Beloved. And so much of me is like, God, like, I just, I want to cry. I'm like, man, hey, are you. Your heart, Are you still you with it?

Your memories, Are you still you with this? I don't know. But what I do know is that you're dearly beloved. And to me that just gives me chills, man.

I'm like, yeah, like silly little Disney video game where a guy has too big a feet for some reason and your weapon is a big key. But you know what I do know from that game, I'm dearly beloved.

And that game is never going to let me forget it because I don't think the franchise is going to end because it makes too much.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's true. I think I. I think that's good.

And in often for people like myself who I don't know have a non existent self esteem and struggle with feeling worthy and all these kind of things, accepting that for other people is always pretty easy for me. I love telling other people that and it's most difficult to accept for myself.

But what's really cool is when you're surrounded by people who constantly remind you of that fact. To go back to like we Only exist in relationship thing, and we need other people to tell us who we are. I think that's true. So, yeah.

And, man, I've met some really cool people through this and I formed a lot of relationships and I'm not a people person. So this whole podcast thing, this whole, like, online community thing has brought a lot of meaning to my life.

And I really appreciate you, Josh Patterson, and you guys listening, who has just been a part of this community have brought so much life to me. I appreciate the hell out of that. Sorry, I feel like I'm being really vulnerable here. Ice Cream Man. People didn't expect this.

Do you hear Ice Cream Man? I feel like that's not what you think.

That's one of the feed. The things I get positive feedback on rethinking Faith is people tell me not to stop being vulnerable.

And it's okay that I cry on episodes all the time. So even if I hate that part about myself or I don't hate it, I just get embarrassed about it.

Well, I love it.

Vulnerability is good.

Yeah. Part of you. And I love that part of you, man. Yeah. Again, you know, there's just. There's so much you could say.

The good, bad thing, I will say to be controversial. Since you mentioned Donald Trump, you mentioned Hitler. I'll mention Donald J. Trump.

Who's that?

I think he is actually. If there were some people that I do think are evil, I think he's probably an evil person overall. That doesn't mean there's nothing good in him.

I actually think he.

He has done a lot of good in showing people, like, hey, the answer to some people being marginalized isn't to try to marginalize the people who aren't currently marginalized. Right now.

I think his answer was incorrect, his answer to that, But I think the fact that he highlighted that there was a problem is a good thing still. So, yeah, to go back to you, like, yeah, hey, we're all split down the line. Maybe some of us had a little bit more evil than good. Sorry, Trump.

We all have that line. I think it's important.

Like, Hitler, Hitler, way more evil than good.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, you know in Stitch, in Lilo and Stitch, where they, like, show his body and part of his level of evil. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Some of our levels of evil is higher than others.

That's it. We all need Lilo to draw little paintings with red so that we could see, like, wait a minute. So me is good. He needs to be worked on.

Maybe I should be more like Elvis. Just kidding. He's also very problematic, but.

Problematic.

Yeah. Josh, have any final thoughts about this comic before we start wrapping this up?

No, I just. I just. I enjoyed it, man. Thank you for. For coming up with this idea and inviting me to talk about comics. It's. It's fun.

It gets me out of the kind of, like, my normal mode of being, which I appreciate, and it's like, it's cool. It's fun to talk about these things. I don't know. I mean, the. The comic, you know, speaks very closely to that I care about, which, I don't know.

Maybe you did that on purpose. I think you probably did, but it. It's good. I appreciate it.

And so I'm excited to see what other comics you throw at me and what other fun conversations we're going to have, because I know you messaged me the one time, like, hey, like, you know, I just want to make sure I, like, don't give you any comics that you've read before. I was like, joshua, I promise you. I promise you, you will not send me a comic I haven't. I've read before because I don't read comics.

So perfect.

Not because I don't like them. I just don't do it. You know, you. You've gotten me to read some comics now. Will Rose has gotten me to read comics.

Ryan does has gotten me to read comics, and I don't know. Well done.

I was gonna also just know you've said a lot of nice stuff about me, but just know, like, I wouldn't have entertained this idea if I didn't care about you. I wouldn't read comics with you if I didn't think it was worth my time, because I can be an. That way. So, dude, take that for what you.

For what you will.

Speaking, we mentioned Ryan. I think Ryan's gonna try and join us for the next one.

Oh, we're gonna be talking about a comic that's titled God Damned by Jason Aaron, who is an atheist with also some similar. He has a lot of. It's really funny.

I think he has a lot of deconstructionist thoughts for someone who isn't Christian, because usually the deconstructionist thoughts that I read are still Christians who are just deconstructed. But. Yeah, so we're going to be talking about A Cain, a fictional story about Cain from Cain and Abel. Bible story from an atheist point of view.

And a lot of action, a lot of gore. Yeah, very much. Not a like a mainstream, happy, feel good comic, but I think we'll have a fun talk with that too.

Another. Another Image comics.

Yeah. Turns out I'm a big fan of Image. I just didn't realize you didn't know.

That's good. I. Well, I. What? From what I've read.

Well, I.

When it comes to this kind of stuff, like, I still love Marvel and dc, but like, the stuff that really makes me have to think, I think typically comes from more of like the indie comics who aren't necessarily writing for the man, who are just kind of writing stories that matter to them.

Of course.

Yeah.

So that's why theology is always best from the margins. Just saying.

Ooh, that's a.

That's a good line. Just saying we need.

We need a sound effect that's like people snapping at like a slap poetry. Perfect. This is good. All right. Well, hey, I. I appreciate you and your time reading comics, you know.

You know, at one point I was gonna be like, the intro was gonna be, I. I'm the Joshua reads comics and this is the Josh who. Who reads smart people but philosophy of theology. And we're gonna talk about books that.

Only five people in the entire world care about.

Oh, man. Yeah. No, it's good stuff. Again, thank you guys who are sponsoring the show. This is gonna.

Primarily, the series is gonna be like every other month, basically. I'm not promising or committing to that because I know how my life is. But we're gonna try to do like basically every other month. Get on here.

It'll be free on Systematic Ecology's website for those who are official members of Systematic Ecology as well as those who are free members or paid members on the Patreon for the Rethinking Faith podcast, which I am a paid member of and I recommend everyone do that.

Yeah, I think I'll also. I'll probably release this first episode on the main feed too, just to sick give the divine luurn.

Yeah, do it guys. Become members of both. It's worth is. Yeah, I already mentioned the next book again. It's goddamn. So if you guys want to read along with us.

God Damned by Jason Aaron. This is probably the most I've said goddamn or goddamned in a single conversation. It's a weird thing.

I'll say God damn. Now you don't you feel less.

I'm gonna say even more next episode.

When we read the goddamn book. God damn.

The goddamn Goddamn. By a goddamn Jason Aaron. No, I love him. He's a cool guy. Ryan and will have talked to him on podcast before too. But anyway, I have to go.

So I have a fun thing to.

Tell you when we hang up about Jason.

Can't wait. And with that, you guys don't get to hear that part. That's for like, member members.

It's like if you pay a million dollars, one of our patrons will tell you what he said.

It's off the record.

But guys, we hope that you can get to a local library or comic book store, pick up a copy of Ice Premium, a copy of God Damned, and continue this journey with us in love. Until next time. Later.