In our weekly Research Culture Uncovered conversations we are asking what is Research Culture and why does it matter? In this episode of Season 7, we start 2024 with an episode featuring all of the hosts, discussing our predictions for how research culture may evolve as we step into 2024.

Each host lays out what they think is coming, and how they might approach it, in each of their respective areas:

• Ged Hall highlights the importance of team perspectives in research success. What approaches do we suggest for effectively capturing and integrating these team insights within an academic setting.
• Ruth Winden discusses AI becoming increasingly prominent in research, what are potential challenges and opportunities that may affect career management and development for researchers.
• Tony Bromley brings in the possible impact from ongoing government policies on the employability and career pathways of postgraduate researchers.
• Nick Sheppard covers some best practices for research institutions when it comes to data governance and fostering open research collaborations.
• Emma Spary discusses REF and the need to ensure the institution's submission is both comprehensive and genuinely reflective of collaborative work.

The main points include:

• Collaboration is Key: From Wikimedia initiatives to international teamwork, the power of joint effort is a game-changer in research culture.
• AI and Careers: With AI transforming every industry, it's crucial for researchers to integrate this technology in their work, while skillfully navigating the career landscape.
• Impact and Openness: Embrace the shift towards recognising wider contributions in research and the increasing importance of open research practices.
• Delving into Roles and Recognition: Debating the roles and titles in research support, Ged and Nick emphasised the importance of recognising the value of these professions.
• Facing Challenges Together: How to manage online and face-to-face professional development post-COVID.

All of our episodes can be accessed via the following playlists:

• Research Impact with Ged Hall (follow Ged on Twitter and LinkedIn)
• Open Research with Nick Sheppard (follow Nick on Twitter and LinkedIn)
• Research Careers with Ruth Winden (follow Ruth on Twitter and LinkedIn)
• Research talent management with Tony Bromley (follow Tony on Twitter and LinkedIn)
• Meet the Research Culturositists with Emma Spary (follow Emma on Twitter and LinkedIn)
• Research co-production

Follow us on twitter: @ResDevLeeds (new episodes are announced here), @OpenResLeeds, @ResCultureLeeds 

Connect to us on LinkedIn: @ResearchUncoveredPodcast (new episodes are announced here)

Leeds Research Culture links:

• Researcher Development and Culture Website
• Our Concordat Implementation plans and progress
• University of Leeds Research Culture Statement
• University of Leeds Responsible Metrics Statement
• University of Leeds Open Research Statement
• University of Leeds Research Culture Strategy - launched September 2023

Intro:

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be. You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Emma Spary:

Ged Hall:

Hi, everyone, this is Ged Hall. I'm an academic development consultant in Emma's team. My specialism is research impact and that's really what most of my episodes have been about.

Ruth Winden:

I'm Ruth Winden and I'm the careers with research consultant at the University of Leeds. And as my title suggests, I focus on the career development of our researcher community and all of my episodes have been with colleagues who I worked with, helping them develop their careers. Over to Nick.

Nick Sheppard:

Hello. So, I'm Nick Sheppard. I'm open research advisor based in research services in the library. So the only one of the presenters who isn't actually ODPL, and as again my job title would suggest, my specialism area is open research. So all my episodes have been about open research and. Tony.

Tony Bromley:

Hi, I'm Tony Bromley, also of the ODPL that Nick just mentioned, the organizational development and professional learning. I'm an academic development consultant. My specialties particularly is in postgraduate research. But you'll see my first series of episodes reflected the research Education Development Scholarship conference, so there's quite a diversity of subjects in that season.

Emma Spary:

Ged Hall:

So there's a number of things that probably are happening in the sector. Research assessment happens in lots of places, so there's lots of things that are uncertain about what our next research excellence framework in the UK will actually be about. So there's a lot of testing and thinking about the people and culture element of that. So that's a big thing that we're all looking forward to hearing more about as the year progresses. It'd be interesting to see what happens in Australia because their assessment is scheduled for. They've actually announced it will happen 24 25, but there's still no real details about that. So it'd be interesting to see what happens in Australia. And then the fascinating thing for me was kind of having a looking at what the kind of research assessment process is in Australia, because a key thing in ref has been to try and make sure it's an assessment of the institution rather than of the individual.

Ged Hall:

And it was interesting looking at the guidance in New Zealand where everybody who submitted submits a portfolio of evidence which may include impact. Coming back to my topic may not. It's not a compulsory part. So that was interesting in terms of different approaches. So that's kind of not a prediction, but a big kind of lots of uncertainty that it'd be nice to see filled in in terms of kind of impact roles in universities in the UK. I think one of my worries is that the funding pressures in our sector might mean that there's lots of roles being advertised at the moment. I think that'll kind of ease off in the next year because the funding pressures will come to bear a little bit more. And that's starting to happen in Sheffield, for instance, Sheffield alum recently, and then kind of more closer to home.

Ged Hall:

For me, I think in training areas for impact, I think we'll be moving in a direction of more coaching type approaches that are fully embedded in the practice of research. Rather than coming to a separate program or workshop on impact, I think we'll be more embedded and that's going to.

Emma Spary:

Lead me to jump into mine because you've already mentioned ref and obviously that's going to be a huge thing with the people and culture and environment parts. I think we're going to see a lot more around the wider contributions that researchers make and how we recognize those and how we work with the researchers and also those people supporting research to make sure that all of those are recognized properly. And it's going to be really interesting to see what that is going to look like and whether or not there's going to be a framework that we use or work to, heaven forbid, something else like another Concord at. But I think it's definitely going to be the priority for the work that I'm doing, particularly as we're seeing more narrative cv styles coming out in funding calls and getting researchers to really think about the wider contributions they make.

Ged Hall:

Yeah, just interesting. I noticed in Portugal, just over the last, just before Christmas, they announced what their assessment process would be. And narrative cvs is part of that. So, yeah, it is emerging across the world, actually.

Emma Spary:

So with that lovely link to narrative cvs, I'm now going to throw the question over to Ruth, because obviously there's a tie in here with careers as well.

Ruth Winden:

Ruth Winden:

And what I really see coming is a much greater need for all of us to learn how to manage your career internally. So in the years before, often, okay, people would look at opportunities and easily and happily leave. And there is a real trend that people actually want to stay, and I think that's also a sign of the unpredictable world we live in. So they want to stay with their employers, grow their careers with their employers, which is a really good approach, in my view, but how do we do it? Well, and again, I think a lot of my work this year is centering around helping our colleagues to manage their careers well, learn how to position themselves accordingly, and position themselves for opportunities. And then the third one, and I know there is a little bit of overlap with Tony. It's all about the uncertainty created by the UK government's recent visa restrictions. So before Christmas, we had a lot of postdocs getting in touch with us, extremely worried about the news, the new income thresholds and what that meant for their job security and for their ability to stay. And also, obviously, postdocs considering, can I actually afford to come to the UK because the salaries are not in line with the visa restrictions and the salary thresholds, and that is obviously a massive worry.

Ruth Winden:

And I will be looking into this, what I can do as a career professional to support our postdoc community. But I think there is a moving goalpost, because the government has already changed their minds on some of it and lowered the threshold. So it's very difficult to predict anything. But I'm very aware that people in our community are very concerned and it's really in my gift to at least address it, help people address the issue, find solutions if possible, and if need be, help them move on. And that would obviously be incredibly sad. But at the end, Leeds has always been very positive and supportive of people managing their careers, and that includes our researchers. So AI, internal career management. And then how are we dealing with the latest government restrictions concerning visas? And Tony, do you want to come in on this? Because I know that you also have that, but from a different angle.

Tony Bromley:

Yeah, I'm sort of concerned from the postgraduate research side to see how things develop. So one of the other aspects of policy is that people coming to the university to study as undergraduates won't be able to bring family members from overseas. Postgraduate research is currently excluded from that. But still, you're changing a body of the community at the undergraduate level. And like any other big research university, we do recruit a lot of people onto PhD programs from our undergraduate body. So if the undergraduate body changes, is there a knock on effect to the recruitment of PGRs? Just from the internal aspect, but also does it in general knock on to international researchers views of coming to do research degrees in the UK. So we'll just have to see how things develop. And as you said, Ruth, it is a bit of a moving feast and things can change month to month.

Tony Bromley:

Shall I continue with my other aspects?

Emma Spary:

I was just going to say, nobody on this podcast is going to hold Ruth or Tony accountable for government decisions going forward. But please do continue, Tony.

Tony Bromley:

Yes. So another aspect I'm interested in. Almost dread to mention the COVID word again, but like most institutions, our personal profession development diversified during COVID and we did an awful lot more online and we developed all sorts of online platforms, particularly using LinkedIn learning. We developed programs like the career Catalyst, which we can make some information available to people if anybody's interested. So I'm just interested next year on how ourselves and other institutions will perhaps rebalance to some extent how we deliver personal professional development activity researches because we don't want to lose any of the gains that we made in terms of online provision. But we of course recognize that our customers, our constituents or our researchers also like face to face provision as well. So how is our delivery of our professional development going to pan out over the next twelve months? Also a knock on effect to us what we do specifically, but more generally the PhD programs. There's also different ways of doing PhD programs and things like online and distance learning.

Tony Bromley:

Phds have been around for many years. Will we have more different ways of doing a PhD? And that knocks onto our professional development. So those are the core sort of things I had. And just the last point about the AI is perhaps another negative. Is this the year that we spot some AI going on in submitted phds? Do we find a literature review that seems to be an AI done literature review? It's happening at undergraduate level of assignments and what have you. So it'll be interesting to see how AI impacts I've put negatively there, but I'm sure there's positive impacts on the research side as well. I'll pass back to Emma.

Ged Hall:

Ged yeah, I just wanted to come in on that kind of flexibility of delivery, Tony, because one of the programs that we launched during the COVID lockdown periods was fully online. So we've been asking while we've been recruiting for that, what would you prefer? And interestingly, the least picked was fully face to face. So people really want kind of, I think it's once flexibility, rather know one mode or the other.

Ruth Winden:

And that's interesting, Ged, because I was just approached by people who are part of our online program and they've been begging me to run an in person session on campus, which I have obviously said yes to because they were making a really valid point that not everyone is suited for the online learning experience and they felt isolated and they said we learn so much better in person and it's such a challenge if they're getting it right. And RC is experimenting for many, many more months with this and I don't think there is a one fits all answer to this. Ged and I, we're developing a program that will be exclusively on campus and we'll see how that goes. Others are now a mix. So that's what I try as well and it will be so interesting to see how are we helping people learn and grow in many different ways so that can people really can follow their preferences and make the most of the learning opportunities that we offer.

Ged Hall:

I think that's the complexity of what's under flexibility, because it's almost like from 1 minute to the next in maybe a longitudinal program that maybe this one we want to be face to face, next one we want to be fully remote and maybe somewhere in the middle in terms of a hybrid option for the one afterwards. And I think we've got to be able to kind of be able to play with all of those options.

Tony Bromley:

I think as well as we talk, we're talking about different formats. It's also confusion in terms of the researchers who are going to receive for, want to a better word, the professional development from us. If they say, have you got anything on leadership? And we say to them, well, you can have it hybrid. There's something online, I've got a sway for you, there's something in LinkedIn learning. What would you like? If we do that for every topic that we offer, then yeah, the way we communicate our offer is going to have to be clear and non confusing.

Emma Spary:

Nick, have you got anything to add to this one?

Nick Sheppard:

Well, I'm not sure, just obviously I'm sat here listening. And what always strikes me, working with you all on this podcast and more generally in other contexts that we work together, is just how our different areas overlap. So you've already all mentioned in different contexts many of the things that also preoccupy in us in the library. So for example, hybrid provision of library training is obviously a concern for us as well. AI, how that affects open research, well, research in general and open research practices is a big question as well. The ref obviously started off talking about the ref, and that's a big thing for us in the library as well. So how that all intersects in a big research institution is really challenging. Just to come back to those predictions.

Nick Sheppard:

I'm not sure I can give three clear predictions, and this may sound perhaps a little bit idealistic, but what I'd really like to emphasize needs to happen and is happening, I think, across the sector and across the university is increased collaboration. That's what it's about. It's about collaboration with colleagues with different expertise, different professional services, whether that's professional services or academic colleagues, academic colleagues in different disciplines. And the power of collaboration really can't be understated. And that's what open research is all about. And in that context, certainly in the sector as a whole, and that leads. The main thing for the specific context of open research is really, I think, about upskilling people, advocacy, helping people to understand what open research is. Again, ties in with some of the things you were saying at the top, Emma, around valuing different diverse contributions.

Nick Sheppard:

And again, that's part of the research culture, aspects of open research. So we're not just focused on a journal article, it's all the components and the activities that go into the research process right throughout the research process, including beyond to impact and public engagement and the stuff that Ged does. So again, just trying to tie all these things together, I think is really important. And probably the main thing that I'll be focusing on, I think will be trying to understand and the sector as a whole, but trying to understand and trying to develop guidance on what open research means in different disciplines and in different research methodologies, because open practice is very different in a stem discipline than it is in the social sciences or the humanities, for example. But again, that doesn't mean that they can't learn from one another and collaborate across with each other. So, yeah, there's some of the things, again, I was just listening as you were all talking, and I may have gone off on a bit of a tangent there, but I don't know if that resonates with you in terms of what you said.

Emma Spary:

I can see Tony's desperate to come in here.

Tony Bromley:

No, it's putting nick on the spot. I went to a very interesting meeting before Christmas, and they were talking about the sensitive research agenda, and it was a group reporting back on their viewpoints in terms of what they take forward. I just wondered how well that fitted in with your work or what your view was on what the issues are.

Nick Sheppard:

On sensitive research, it's really difficult not to put too fine a point on it, and it's preoccupying us actually in all sorts of ways at the moment in the library and across the sector, not least because we've got increasing requirements from funders and policies and expectations from government or whoever to share data. Now, that's fine. And we have mantras like as open as possible, as closed as necessary, but actually the governance around how that happens is really complicated and how that ties in with the ethics process. So any data derived from human participants has to go through an ethics process. You need to make sure you've got the right consent in place to make sure that that can be shared. If you've got special category data around gender identity or religious belief or whatever it is, all that kind of stuff has to be very carefully managed. So it's a really difficult area that the whole sector is grappling with at the moment, and specifically also at Leeds. So we've got various groups looking at data governance and making sure that data is being properly looked after right throughout the research process and ideally to be shared, underpin reproducible research so that the research results can be reproduced.

Nick Sheppard:

But you can only share the data if all the ethical procedures and consents and information, et cetera, is all in place. And it's no small task.

Emma Spary:

Ruth, you look like you wanted to add something there.

Ruth Winden:

I just loved Nick's comments about the collaboration, and I always think our podcast is such a lovely collaboration as well. And although some of our work overlaps, they're also such distinct differences. And I've so much enjoyed learning about all of your areas of expertise and throwing our five minds together and our need to share and talk and laugh and create something together. And so I just want to say thank you to that, because I know I get teased endlessly by my co podcast hosts that initially I think it was my idea, and golly, we didn't realize, or I didn't realize, how much work it is, but also I think personally how much joy it is. And I see Ged is jumping up and down and wants to say something, so I'll hand the mic over to Ged.

Ged Hall:

Yeah, it definitely was your idea, Ruth, and I definitely remember being kind of anti the time, but it has been absolutely thrilling and over the last year, in terms of all the interviews that we've had with people, because it is lovely to just have a natter about something that you're fascinated by and impact is fascinating for me. But just coming back to something that Nick was saying in terms of that kind of teamwork, there are lots of overlaps, and we have to really consider that in sort of system thinking, if you want to kind of sound a bit theoretical about it. But this is a system, and when we make a change in one part of the system, we always have to consider what's happening in another part of the system that maybe is an unintended consequence. So I think those are the complexities around the kind of jobs we do and the work we do with researchers and what we call ourselves when we're doing that work with researchers. That's also a fascinating topic that people have been. Why do we call ourselves research adjacent or research enablers, or research support? Which is your preference?

Emma Spary:

What's yours then, Ged?

Ged Hall:

Well, actually, when I first heard adjacent, I hated had when Ruth and I had the chat with Sarah, who coined the phrase in her podcast, the research adjacent podcast. She actually convinced me that actually it's about the best we've got at the moment, because enabler just makes you sound as if you're there to create the know. Nothing you do has any value in its own right. It is just create the environment for the research to know. That is our purpose. And that feels okay, but it just feels a bit lower level and support feels even lower level. So there's kind of like those sorts of how am I being valued? Kind of issues going on. I know Nick wants to come in on that.

Nick Sheppard:

I was just going to know. That's certainly something we've been thinking about in the library. Not me personally, necessarily, but we've kind of rebranded ourselves. We've always called ourselves research support, but now we research services, and I think that's in recognition as part of the culture of the university and that we can actually contribute in a very real sense to the research that's happening, whether that's through data management or the expertise around open research or bibliometrics or various other things that we can support, can facilitate, can help with, can do in the library. And I think that's an important part of the culture of a research intensive university.

Ged Hall:

Well, personally coming back in on that, I'm not convinced that even in places well away from my own research background in chemistry kind of places over in more your neck of the woods, Nick, with English, that there is such a thing as the lone scholar model. I just think that's a myth, that research has always happened through teams. It's just whether we actually valued the other members of those know.

Nick Sheppard:

It really struck me, actually, I was just listening to your last podcast, Ged, with remind me their names. Vicky and Fran was.

Ged Hall:

Fran. Yeah, Fran.

Nick Sheppard:

And as part of that conversation, there was a really interesting conversation, because I'm not an academic. I've got an undergraduate degree in English, as you say. But that sense that academics have sort of identified, it was something you said. What are you and you're. Well, I'm a chemist, and as somebody working in the library, I think I'm a layperson, I suppose, but I'm also a generalist, and there's a place for that. And the specialism of a specific discipline is obviously beneficial, and we need to work with them to understand the particulars of a specific discipline. But at the same time, that more broad lens that a librarian, for example, can bring to something is important as well.

Tony Bromley:

I was just interested in what Ged said talked about being valued and respect. And for me it's less about what we call ourselves, it's more about anybody involved in the research process feeling valued and respected. And I could go on a sporting analogy or a musical analogy, but in the sporting arena, the striker who scores the goals gets the limelight and there's more. But if you haven't got a goalkeeper in the defense, then the football game is not going to happen. In a musical arena. There's so many people going involved in putting some sort of concert on stage. And yes, without the performer on the stage, the things are not going to happen, but without the lighting, the recording and all around it, it's not going to happen either. So it's about everybody in the process being valued, I think so we're never.

Emma Spary:

Ged Hall:

Ged Hall:

In terms of they were constantly talking about the team and I think that's something I want to do more on in terms of rather than getting an interview with an individual or two individuals, kind of like bring the whole team together, what do they see as the team and what are the elements of that that make it successful?

Emma Spary:

Blimey, good luck on that one. It's hard enough with just five that's trying to coordinate well.

Ged Hall:

I'm trying to push myself, always trying to push myself in that kind of developmental space.

Emma Spary:

What about you, Ruth?

Ruth Winden:

When it comes to AI, thankfully I know several people in my industry who are totally hot on AI and love the topic and have a lot to say and they've done a lot of research, so we're getting these people in because AI and careers is not my expertise. And so I believe in getting those people in who've spent the last six months really going deep into this topic. And when it comes to internal career management, for me, that is such an important topic. I'm planning to publish a little bit more in terms of case studies tips, how to manage your career internally, because I do think there is a huge shortage of knowledge and capability in that area, and we all need to get our heads around that a bit more. Also, I have developed quite an interest in circumvents as a career development tool, and I have several researchers who've moved on and used succumbments strategically to enhance their careers. And thankfully, I am all in touch with them on LinkedIn, and I think we'll do an episode together to explore how can you drive, enhance, push your career forward through sectmans. And then the last piece. Yes, the visa restrictions and how it affects our researcher community.

Ruth Winden:

I feel really passionately about it. It reminds me of the times when I went through Brexit as a german national and how scary it was, and we didn't even have half the sanctions and restrictions that are now coming for our international colleagues. And I need to watch the space a little bit because it's moving so quickly. But I really think I need to put on a few workshops really looking at people, what strategies can we come up with? How can you feel more secure? Which strategies can we pursue in terms of securing the next contract? All these kind of things. So lots to do this year, and I'm also really looking forward to. I have a long list of people who want to come onto the podcast with career conversations and sharing how they've driven their careers with some of our programs at Leeds here, and where they've got to in the end. And, yeah, it will be fun, but I hand over now to maybe, Nick, what are you going to do this year? Not that you're not busy enough as it is.

Nick Sheppard:

Yeah, good. You. There's a lot of strategic work going on around, well, research culture, obviously, in general, and open research in particular. So through our open research advisory group that I sit on and on that group as well, we're trying to coordinate a lot of this work. So, for example, there is a program of open research champions, as we call in them, and that's going to be the directors of research and innovation who are senior members of research staff at school level. So I'm very much hoping that will help us to try and drill down into open research in a disciplinary context, in different research methodologies, for example. Along with that, we're actually recruiting very soon to a coordinator role that will support the Dories in their open research champion role. So I think that's an important area.

Nick Sheppard:

Again, strategically, there's lots going on actually around the sensitive data that Tony was asking about. So there's what we're calling a task and finish group looking at data governance, taking know, infrastructure, et cetera. I'm on another, as we call task and finish group again, strategically sort of coordinating this know. If you can strategically coordinate collaboration. Lots of different colleagues from different parts of the university on these groups looking at, in my case, open research resources. So training and making sure that we've got all the information online and we've got all our training courses collated both internally, externally. As part of that as well, we're working with UKRN. We're now a member of the UK reproducibility network.

Nick Sheppard:

I'm actually hoping to with you, hopefully, Ruth, actually, in fact, bring on Professor Daryl O'Connor, who is our lead academic colleague for UKRN, to talk to him about UKRN and perhaps his career in open. He's always been opening open research, so keep an eye out for that, if we can get Darryl on the podcast. Yeah, so lots going on. It's difficult to sort of summarize all the different things that are happening, but they're the main things, I think, at the moment.

Emma Spary:

And Tony, how are you going to tackle the PGR priorities that you've identified?

Tony Bromley:

Well, probably I'm going to about to give myself some work in saying what I'm about to say. Periodically, like everybody does, we look at our strategy on the employability area for postgraduate research. So we're in that cycle at the moment. One of the things we also do periodically as part of that is look at the do a snapshot of provision available across the campus for postgraduate researchers because, well, we're one of the central providers, but like many universities, we've got multiple providers of personal professional development activity and then there's schools and programs, et cetera, who provide stuff. So as we've had this conversation as part of that audience, I can now see a spreadsheet that has a column that says how mode of delivery. So I think it might well take the opportunity to just actually see what we're doing at Leeds and perhaps there's a chance to share some anonymized, not sensitive data with other institutions in terms of their modes of delivery on the professional development area as well. And then on the big scale, we're thinking about government policy, et cetera. And then just remembering that actually this year I might be able to do something about government policy because we may well get to vote.

Tony Bromley:

So I shall look at the various parties and their views on research, and I shall vote accordingly. Should we get the opportunity to vote this year.

Emma Spary:

Stay tuned for Tony's podcast episode on who to vote for. Should we be given that opportunity Should say at this point that the views are our own and not necessarily those of our institution. I think for me, a lot of my work is going to be around preparing us for what comes with ref. So whether that's preparing us as an institution or for working with individuals or working across the sector to make sure that what goes into the people, culture and environment parts actually reflects what we do in our institutions and doesn't just become another long tick box exercise. This is about collaboration. It shouldn't be about competition. So it's trying to keep that focus on it.

Nick Sheppard:

I just wanted to come back in. I mean, it'd be remiss of me to let a podcast go without mentioning Wikimedia, but that is certainly an area that we're hoping to do more on and a really collaborative aspect as well, and with real potential to, I think, learn about open research and open practice in general. And then you had just mentioned, you use the term Emma, collaboration and not competition. And that's kind of the tagline of the knowledge equity network, which is another ongoing initiative that I'm involved with. And again, really trying to make sure that what we're doing as a university is having a real impact in the world, both locally and nationally and internationally, and really making sure thinking about what a university is actually for. And it's not about chasing the rankings, it's not about competing with other universities, it shouldn't be. It should be about actually making some positive change in the world. So, yeah, knowledge equity network and Wikimedia are two other things that I'll certainly be focusing on this year.

Emma Spary:

And of course, as all of you have mentioned, it's all about development. We are continuing our own development, and I will be continuing to learn from the bees. They have so much more to teach me about research culture. And I will be sharing that with you again when they wake up from their winter hibernating. I'm not going to tempt fate any longer because I think we've done pretty well in terms of making sure we've all had a say and we're not talking over each other. It wasn't the crash as it was when we first started and tried this. We were told never to try it again, but we decided we would try. We've learned, we've developed.

Emma Spary:

Ruth Winden:

Thank you so much everyone. Happy New Year.

Tony Bromley:

Thank you.

Ged Hall:

Thanks for listening.

Nick Sheppard:

Yeah, thanks everyone and hopefully speak to you again soon.

Intro:

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