In Part 2 of our conversation, Susan Dray continues to share deep insights about the importance of self-awareness and authenticity, empathy and listening with heart, and dealing with professional discomfort and personal adversity. She discusses her mentoring style, centred around being empathetic and supportive. And she talks about the importance of service and community, as well as the current challenges faced by early career researchers.

Susan also shares deeply personal challenges and losses, and the accompanying emotional journey of accepting and learning from setbacks, the value of honouring people's experiences, and the importance of collaborative support. She reminds us, paraphrased here, that few people understand how special they are, and that what really matters is who you are. Because this is going to mean that what you do is important and makes a difference. Susan has certainly made a difference. 

Overview:

00:29 Introduction to Part Two with Susan Dray

02:18 Navigating Discomfort and Deep Learning

05:47 Mentoring and Community Support

08:51 HCI in Africa and Global Recognition

13:28 Supporting Early Career Researchers

19:12 Mentoring and the Joy of Service

22:11 Reflections on Mentoring and Authenticity

26:08 Evolving Roles, Willingness to be a Beginner

29:40 Postscript - Personal Reflections and Adversities

30:55 Lessons from Sailing

32:21 Coping with Loss and Finding Positivity

35:08 Final Reflections on Life and Legacy

36:50 Wrap up

38:27 End

Related Links:

Susan Dray's webpage and LinkedIn profile  

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

2

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

3

others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

4

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

5

welcome to part two of a

discussion with Susan Dray and

6

it's a really special discussion.

7

. She continues to reflect on a lot

of her professional and personal

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experiences, but it gets much more

personal and real, and she talks about

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things around, value of empathy in

listening and listening with heart.

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And she talks a lot about mentoring

and her approaches to that, and also

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talks a lot about service and community.

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But just mentioning those labels

doesn't do justice to the ways

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in which Susan talked about it.

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And I also include some of our

unofficial discussion at the end,

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which I share with her permission.

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Because she continues to talk about some

of the losses that she's experienced and

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some of the health challenges and life

challenges that she's had to navigate.

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And again, just the quality

of the person comes through.

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And as Susan says

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Susan: I think everybody

needs support, quite frankly.

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Yes.

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I think very, very few people

understand and realize how

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special they are, you know?

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And what matters is who you are.

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Because who you are is going to mean

that what you do is important and

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makes a difference, and has an impact.

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Geri Fitz: And Susan has

definitely had an impact.

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So we'll start here a little bit back

from where we left off in part one,

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and I really hope you enjoy this very

special part two with Susan Dray.

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You're very self-reflective in the

whole practice, in the way you've talked

31

about being aware of the potential

blinders and also, again, that curiosity

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that enables you to be surprised.

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Yeah.

34

Because what you said, you don't

know, you've got the blinders

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. And then you hit them and

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Yeah.

37

Susan: When you hit them, it can feel

like you're a failure in that moment.

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And if you let that take over

your mindset at that point

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then you miss the surprises.

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And I've now learned that every

time I do a study, regardless of

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where the first couple of people,

I'm gonna feel really stupid.

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Geri Fitz: And that's okay.

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Susan: And that's okay.

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You know, learning to sit with

discomfort, I think is a really big deal.

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And then when you're uncomfortable

listening deeply with your heart,

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you know, really, really focusing

on understanding as much as you can.

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Which is , they compete with each other.

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You know, that's a struggle.

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That's always a struggle.

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Geri Fitz: Can you say more about that?

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Susan: Well,

52

so in the beginning of, of

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the township study, for instance,

we were trying to understand what

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they did with money in general.

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And.

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I have a client with me.

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I'm trying to create an experience

that's a good experience for her.

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We are also working with a local vendor.

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Of course, we never, ever

would do that on our own.

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We worked with the local vendor.

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They consulted on the screener

and they did the recruitment,

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and then they went with us.

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Mm.

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And had a facilitator, and two

translators so that they could switch

65

off because we tried to, as much

as possible, use local language.

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Not always possible,

but as much as possible.

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And it was so hard in the beginning

to just relax enough and allow myself

68

to feel the discomfort and not just

react by going, ah, you know, just.

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Use it as information.

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Oh, this is, this is

important information here.

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Yeah.

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You're learning stuff that you

wouldn't be learning otherwise.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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Susan: Um, and that's

why you're uncomfortable.

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Yeah.

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It's that discrepancy.

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Geri Fitz: How would you talk to

someone about listening with your heart?

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Because that sounds so key for lots

of things, not just doing field work.

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Susan: Mm.

80

Mm-hmm.

81

I think that's kind of me.

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Mm.

83

You know, that, that's kind of who I am.

84

So listening with the heart

means to me being empathetic.

85

, but also,

86

how do I say it?

87

I guess it's kind of listening with love.

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A kind of honoring what the

person is saying and what they're

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showing you in their behavior,

even when they don't match.

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But seeing that as valuable and

then reinforcing that value.

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And certainly when I mentor folks a

lot of what I do is it's really simple.

92

Yeah.

93

Because I think most people

have, they know what the solution

94

is, they just can't unpack it.

95

Yeah.

96

So it's just sitting and saying,

huh, that's an interesting question.

97

And then ask a follow up that then

they go into and they go, Hmm.

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Really interesting.

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Just kind of reinforcing that

the person is valuable, that you

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honor them, that you respect them.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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Susan: That you care for them.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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And that's such a valuable gift that you

give to all of us who've had the honor

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of interacting with you over the years.

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Because I was actually going to go to

the mentoring because I think that,

107

when you talked about listening with

your heart, I was thinking about,

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that's what I see you doing all the

time in any of your interactions.

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And I'm actually just

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Susan: You've got your hearts!

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Geri Fitz: I'm holding up here an

orange and a purple heart stone

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that I was gifted by Susan the last

time I saw her a few months ago.

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And just the generosity of these little

gestures that you have as well, that

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are ways of connecting with people.

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And you can't put a value on that

presence in a peer community,

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in a professional community.

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And yeah.

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What that gives to people.

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Susan: Well, and there certainly are

people who dismiss it and say, you

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don't have anything technical to offer.

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For instance, and it's been a long

time since I've been in the field,

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I don't have technical insights.

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But I know how to provide support,

you know, this undergirding.

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Yeah.

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And also I am a cockeyed optimist.

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I get this from my father.

127

And so I tend to see positive,

you know, positives for people.

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And sometimes that's the most

important thing is it's gonna be okay.

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It is going to be okay.

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And if it's not okay, it's not done yet.

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Geri Fitz: Hmm.

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Susan: You know, and yeah, that's

simplistic and, but sometime, you

133

know, if somebody's deeply negative

about something, hearing a positive

134

can be for them uncomfortable and

can lead them to question their

135

cynicism, say, or whatever it is.

136

Doesn't always work,

but sometimes it does.

137

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

138

And, and so that presence in listening

with your heart is also in a way holding

139

up a mirror for people, which can be to

reflect, reflect on exactly where they're

140

coming from, as well as reflecting on

the fact that they do have the answers.

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Susan: Exactly.

142

Exactly.

143

And it's like peeling the onion.

144

So sometimes what people need is that

kind of listening, deep listening.

145

But other times they need an opportunity.

146

So for instance, Gary Marsden

and I were very dear friends.

147

Gary was a professor at the University

of Cape Town, and he was one of

148

the key people in the early days

of HCI in Africa, South Africa.

149

But yes, Africa, I don't believe

there were HCI communities,

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anyplace else in those days.

151

And in 2001 they had a conference.

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Happened to be, my keynote was on 9.11,

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the original 9.11,

154

which was an interesting

situation to be in.

155

But luckily I'd already given my

keynote when all that went down.

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But it was.

157

Important to listen to what they

needed and what they needed.

158

First of all, there was a

deep sense of inferiority.

159

You know, Africa's inferior,

well, that's a pretty shitty

160

thing that colonialism has done.

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Let's get rid of that.

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So there was partly, there was no,

no, this is really interesting.

163

You know, and people that most

people have never heard of, like

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Edwin Blake who did this amazing

work providing, game trackers, sand

165

bushman trackers in national parks.

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They can read a leaf that's been stepped

on by an elephant half an hour ago.

167

They didn't have the language to

express this, but he developed this

168

tracker that they could then keep

track of what their observations were

169

and it raised their standing, but

also he found that they were gonna do

170

it the old western hierarchical way.

171

Right.

172

Geri Fitz: Hmm.

173

Susan: Does not work, or didn't

at that time work at all.

174

I mean, even if you ask people to show

their family tree, they would, instead

175

of like, grandparents, parents, children,

they would do parents, aunt, child,

176

uncle, grandfather, father, you know.

177

They did not have the concept

of a hierarchy, so hierarchical

178

wasn't gonna work for them.

179

And they didn't have language.

180

A written language at that time.

181

I don't know if they do now.

182

So it was all done icon graphically

with pictures of the different animals

183

that had to be accurate enough that they

could distinguish between a Springbok

184

and a, whatever else, Bok it might be.

185

Well, who knows about that work

in this, in the global north?

186

Geri Fitz: Mm.

187

Susan: Not very many people.

188

So what they needed was first of

all to be reinforced that they were

189

doing important things and they

needed a voice to the global North.

190

They needed somebody to be

saying, this work is important.

191

This work matters.

192

This is excellent work.

193

And that was me.

194

So I became the voice for Africa.

195

And Gary used to say that HCI in Africa,

they never would've been able to get the

196

kind of recognition that they have since

still not enough, but they are starting to

197

get without having that kind of conduit.

198

And that was me.

199

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

200

I mean, and that's the

interstices again, isn't it?

201

Susan: Exactly.

202

Geri Fitz: In a different way.

203

Susan: Yeah.

204

It's, yeah.

205

And so sometimes what people need is

exposure or you know, so another one

206

of my mentees who was doing a PhD

on a Fulbright coming from Africa.

207

And she was doing a PhD at Iowa State.

208

And she needed a postdoc.

209

And so we were talking, I

was actually down in Panama

210

on a Fulbright at that time.

211

So we were talking and it became

clear that she was interested in

212

gender studies and I said, you

should talk to Margaret Burnett.

213

And so I hooked them up.

214

Well, she ended up doing

a, a postdoc with Margaret.

215

Geri Fitz: Oh, lovely.

216

Susan: And yeah, so it is like,

sometimes it's just that little, yeah.

217

You should talk to this, you

should talk to this person.

218

Yeah.

219

You know, that kind of thing.

220

And I think we

221

Geri Fitz: That's a lovely, extension

of your rich people skillset, that

222

networking and connecting Well, I think.

223

As well as advocating.

224

Susan: Absolutely.

225

We need more of that.

226

Geri Fitz: Mm.

227

Susan: Especially nowadays, early

career scientists and people in business

228

as well are getting totally slammed.

229

And we need to find ways to support them.

230

And that's going to require

the old proverbial village.

231

Right?

232

It takes a village to raise an early

career researcher, so to speak.

233

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

234

Any particular ideas for what we can

do right now around those challenges?

235

Susan: Well, one thing

we can do is listen.

236

Listen to their situation

and make connections.

237

And I was so excited at CHI because I

saw that this was our recent conference.

238

Our recent, yeah.

239

CHI Conference in Japan.

240

And.

241

What I saw there was this sense

that a, we have to pull together

242

to support early career people

and a real recognition of that.

243

And we're not going to let it happen

that this field gets blown apart by this.

244

And so that may mean that it

migrates to other parts of the world.

245

It may mean, and this could be a perfect

opportunity for us to raise awareness of

246

Africa because they're doing artificial

intelligence really differently there.

247

And you know, the idea that AI now

is training on a Western internet

248

Geri Fitz: Yes.

249

Susan: And has Western

culture built into it.

250

And that doesn't work in Egypt

or Kenya or Nigeria or stuff.

251

I mean, it doesn't work.

252

So their whole human centered AI

approaches are, I think, they're

253

radical, they've, they're spreading.

254

But I think that's a very consistent,

I've been hearing that from my African

255

colleagues for a good five years.

256

More than five years.

257

Yeah.

258

So I think, you know, they're really

pioneers in that and we keep reinventing

259

the wheel and think we invented it.

260

Right.

261

Nope.

262

Geri Fitz: Hmm.

263

Yeah.

264

Susan: Yeah.

265

Geri Fitz: So are you talking

particularly there about early

266

career researchers within the

American context or more generally?

267

Susan: Well, I think the American context

is particularly dire given the political

268

sense situation in the US right now.

269

But it has a ripple effect

outside the US obviously.

270

And

271

I think everybody needs

support, quite frankly.

272

Yes.

273

I think very, very few people

understand and realize how

274

special they are, you know?

275

Yeah.

276

And.

277

And so if you can just be that

mirror to reflect that back to

278

them, sometimes that's enough.

279

Yeah.

280

To help them have the courage to do what

they have to do, whatever that might be.

281

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

282

Susan: And, and

283

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

284

That's beautiful Susan.

285

And there's so much

about our sector that is.

286

Continually trying to reinforce

messages of not being good enough.

287

Of being rejected of

288

Susan: Exactly, exactly.

289

Geri Fitz: The hyper competition that

290

Susan: Absolutely.

291

You know, oh, I got a CHI paper, that

means I'm part of the 10%, or whatever.

292

It's like, I've never had a CHI paper.

293

I never submitted a, I've

never submitted a CHI paper.

294

I've had case studies, I've had SIGs,

I've had panels, I've done other

295

stuff, but I've never had a paper.

296

Geri Fitz: Oh, that's wonderful.

297

So there, there are ways of

choosing your way of being in

298

peer communities isn't there?

299

Susan: Absolutely.

300

And I wouldn't get anywhere if

I tried to submit a high paper

301

because the stuff I write about

would be dismissed as you know.

302

That's not important.

303

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

304

So sounds like choosing what

difference you want to make.

305

Susan: Mm-hmm.

306

So I think it's, it's Jane Goodall,

I think, who says something like.

307

Whatever you do makes a difference.

308

You just have to decide what kind

of difference you want to make.

309

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

310

And standing confidently in that.

311

Susan: As confidently as

you can with some support.

312

A lot of help from your friends sometimes.

313

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

314

And recognizing, as you said about

standing in the discomfort of that as

315

well sometimes and not being sure and

316

Susan: Yeah.

317

And you know, I think, I think my

impression of academia, I've only been

318

in academic for, true academic for four

months when I was down in Panama teaching

319

and helping them develop curricular

around HCI and a systems engineering.

320

Now, it was really interesting.

321

So I can, I can't speak to being an

academic, I can be like an academic.

322

But my impression is that

because of scarcity and perceived

323

scarcity, there's huge competition.

324

And so there's this sort of

dog eat dog kind of thing.

325

And I see that everywhere,

not just in the US.

326

It's particularly pronounced

in the US I think.

327

And it's crazy.

328

We have different skills.

329

We're gonna fit in different places.

330

Yeah.

331

Yeah.

332

It's just, it's sad.

333

It's like when the pot gets

smaller, the dogs fight harder.

334

Yeah.

335

And

336

it's not that it's, yeah,

total peaches and cream in

337

industry either of course, but

338

Geri Fitz: No challenges everywhere and

339

Susan: Absolutely.

340

Geri Fitz: So, should look

at wrapping up, I guess.

341

Susan: Yeah, whenever.

342

Geri Fitz: Sadly, because

it's a wonderful talking.

343

What have we not talked about

that we should before we wrap up?

344

Susan: Hmm.

345

Well, I, I love mentoring, but it's

such an honor, and I could run down

346

some of the people that I've had

this incredibly wonderful, precious,

347

very precious relationship with.

348

And the whole idea of service too, where,

you know, you get so much out of it.

349

Mm-hmm.

350

It's hard to imagine

people don't just go, yeah.

351

Because you really end up, you

meet people, you have fun, you

352

have intellectual challenge.

353

You have to figure out logistics.

354

All this kind of stuff.

355

That's just so fascinating.

356

Now in the beginning with CHI.

357

So the first CHI was in Boston

in 83, and then the next one

358

was in San Francisco in 85.

359

And it, that's because the

one in Boston was in like

360

December or something like that.

361

And the next one started

in the April, May time.

362

But I have pictures of, from 85, I was

super involved at 85 and we have literally

363

a very big paper on a bulletin board and

blocks, columns for the three different

364

rooms or however many there were, and

then where you put them and then you

365

have to, you kind of swap 'em around.

366

Very physical.

367

It was totally physical, totally

different problem than we have now

368

with 5,000 people coming and all that.

369

But the comraderie that we developed

and the bonds that we developed and

370

the ways that we worked with each

other, those are consistent, you know?

371

Mm-hmm.

372

I think it's bigger job and it, there's

more burnout now, obviously with the

373

bigger job and also with the fact that

I think people have a lot of trouble.

374

Okay.

375

This is controversial.

376

Personally, I think you can

get an awful lot done if you

377

don't care who gets the credit.

378

But it's a mindset of, we have

to fight over the small crumbs

379

here, which I think is the, at

large, makes it hard to do that.

380

It makes it hard to collaborate.

381

Because, you want people to know

that this was your idea, you know?

382

And so for me, I give away ideas all

the time and most of 'em are terrible,

383

but I used to say, when I do lectures,

I, so during this lecture I'm gonna

384

say something that's really stupid and

it's your job to figure out what it is,

385

which is great.

386

Because it took all the

pressure away, you know?

387

Geri Fitz: Yeah, yeah.

388

The allowing yourself to be human.

389

Susan: Exactly.

390

Well, I think that's something

that's really hard to do.

391

Being vulnerable is, does not

come naturally to people who are

392

high achievers, who have lots

of degrees and lots of experience

393

with a combative mindset, you know?

394

Geri Fitz: And where your identity's too

bound up in those external validations.

395

Susan: Yes.

396

And in what you do.

397

And what matters is who you are.

398

Because who you are is going to mean

that what you do is important and

399

makes a difference, and has an impact.

400

And that's what I see in these

amazing people that I've had this

401

very precious relationship with,

is that they just like, wow.

402

And it's not because of me,

it is not because of me.

403

I'm just like a little, a little

background sort of or whatever.

404

But they then just take off and

they do these incredible things.

405

And they're very much interdisciplinary.

406

I have to say that I've mentored,

I don't know how many people,

407

but they're primarily women,

people in the global majority is

408

what people are using right now.

409

And women of color in the US,

people of color in the US.

410

Primarily women.

411

It's mostly women that I would work with.

412

Geri Fitz: Do people come to you and

ask explicitly if you would be a mentor?

413

And do you set it up as a

formal mentoring relationship?

414

Or is it much more emergent relational?

415

Susan: It's more emergent,

relational and you recognize it in

416

retrospect more than prospectively.

417

And, you know.

418

David says, well, are

you really a mentorer?

419

Because you don't have a

schedule and you're not talking.

420

But, I mean, there are a lot of people

right now, there are probably four

421

people that I talk with every week.

422

Wow.

423

In, Africa primarily, but you know.

424

So one of the folks I'm talk to

every week on Friday morning.

425

She just needs to have somebody

listen because she gets very little

426

validation in her university, like none.

427

And she's been forced to change

her field of study somewhat because

428

of what the university wants her to

do, if she wants to keep her job.

429

And she's very multicultural

in a very monoculture place.

430

Both country and university.

431

And she struggles with that.

432

And she also is very involved

with doing her own service.

433

And so she has issues there with dealing

with the other people who are working

434

on the conference that she's chairing or

whatever it might be, so just listening

435

means so much because she talks it

out, she answers her own questions.

436

They always do.

437

Sometimes it takes more

than one time, but yes.

438

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

439

But the gift of providing that space

for someone and that listening heart.

440

Susan: Well, people are just amazing.

441

And people in this field are

just absolutely incredible.

442

The intellect, the heart.

443

And I think probably the reason that

I mostly work with women is not just

444

because I'm a woman, but because women

are much more open to being authentic

445

and to learning how to be authentic.

446

I'm not actively modeling anything,

or, I mean, I don't think about

447

it, it's just who I am, you know?

448

Yeah.

449

So, yeah.

450

But

451

Geri Fitz: yeah, I love bringing

who you are, and I love that you

452

started off talking about the

453

Susan: Yeah.

454

Geri Fitz: That it's 2025.

455

The ways in which your role in

the work that you're doing in the

456

industry that legitimizes your

participation in the community.

457

And then your ongoing participation Yeah.

458

That has grown out of the service

and out of the relationships.

459

And the fact that you were still

at the last big conference Yeah.

460

In April, which was Yeah.

461

Amazing to see you there.

462

Susan: Yeah.

463

It was interesting because I sat

back at that conference and I looked

464

at, at breaks and the SIGCHI lounge

was at the back of the large hall

465

where all the food was served and the

posters and all that kind of stuff.

466

And I looked at it and I said, I

recognized maybe for the first time

467

that a, well, it wasn't the first time I

recognized that I didn't know everybody.

468

There was a time when I knew

everybody in this field.

469

No more.

470

I mean, hasn't been there for a long time.

471

But I looked at the people and

realized that my role has to

472

be fundamentally different now.

473

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

474

Susan: You know, I'm in

the crone phase I guess.

475

My role must be one of

simply being a support.

476

Because I'm not going to be able

to contribute to the intellectual

477

conversations that people are having.

478

That's not what I do anymore, you know.

479

I'm sure you're familiar

with the tale of indra's net.

480

I believe it's a Hindu, I'm not sure

where exactly it comes from, but

481

Indra throws a net across the world

and every place where that crosses,

482

every intersection, there's a bell.

483

And so whenever one person

moves, the whole network moves.

484

The whole network rings.

485

And I think that's really true, in

a sense that we all influence,

486

have an influence on other people.

487

Yeah.

488

And so I love that metaphor,

because I think it really gets at,

489

the whole way that I see the world.

490

it's interesting.

491

Another thing, I think you have to be

willing to be a beginner sometimes.

492

Geri Fitz: Hmm.

493

Susan: You know, and that's awkward.

494

Geri Fitz: Hmm.

495

Yeah.

496

Susan: I'm doing watercolor right now.

497

I'm starting to learn about watercolor

and it's like, oh man, is that hard?

498

And so the beginner

mind is also important.

499

Geri Fitz: Well, Susan, you said before,

it matters who you are and we're really

500

grateful for who you are and the way

that it has mattered to this community

501

in so many different ways over the years.

502

And for

503

Susan: Well, thank you so much.

504

That means so much coming from you

because you are just one of the

505

bright lights and you are a person

who gives so much to the community.

506

And so many people, when you

mention Geraldine Fitzpatrick,

507

they say, do you know her?

508

Isn't she amazing?

509

So, you know, it's important.

510

It means a lot coming from you because

I really honor and respect you.

511

I think you're amazing.

512

Thank you.

513

Geri Fitz: So, all the very best,

and thank you for your time today.

514

Susan: Well, thank you.

515

Geri Fitz: Now that may sound

like the end, but it's not.

516

After we got to this point, Susan

and I continued chatting informally.

517

And this is when she started sharing

about some very personal experiences,

518

often very painful experiences or dealing

with a lot of different adversities.

519

And they're reflections to do with loss

and getting older, and also various

520

loss and adversity experiences across

the lifespan that she's dealt with.

521

And again, you just hear this amazing

person of Susan coming through with her

522

ability to reflect and find the positive

in things and find a way through, and

523

always with an orientation to others.

524

So I asked Susan if I could

also share some of this

525

discussion and she kindly agreed.

526

So we start off here where she's talking

about sailing, which is something that

527

her and David husband really love to

do, and some of her particular health

528

challenges at the moment around that.

529

And we go on from there.

530

Susan: I have a couple of sailing

shots, which I really like.

531

Yeah.

532

Um,

533

you can learn a lot from sailing.

534

Geri Fitz: Oh, that would be a

big thing about trust as well.

535

And relationships.

536

Yeah.

537

'cause you'd have to trust, I mean, you'd

just going with the flow with the weather,

538

what you control and can't control.

539

Susan: Exactly.

540

And you know, you sometimes you

just can't get where you want go.

541

You can't, the wind is blowing

the wrong direction and

542

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

543

Susan: It's gonna be like gale force

for the next month and so you have

544

to go someplace else, you know?

545

Or you have to

546

Geri Fitz: And do you go off

sailing for months at a time.

547

Susan: Yes, we used to

before I dislocated my hip.

548

Yeah.

549

We, the longest I've been

living aboard was four months.

550

And that was primarily Intercoastal

waterway, so it was protected sailing.

551

But nowadays it's like too

dangerous for me to be on board.

552

Geri Fitz: Yeah, I know.

553

You can't risk falling again.

554

Susan: But, you know,

555

if I'm, if I am not gonna be able to sail,

then there are other things that I can do.

556

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

557

Susan: That they're different.

558

Geri Fitz: Is that, is this the

watercolor water painting part of that?

559

Susan: Yeah, watercolor is part of it.

560

And I discovered, early on, well,

561

Our first daughter was four and a half,

and our second daughter was diagnosed

562

at 28 weeks with, autosomal recessive

polycystic kidney disease, which is

563

not common and had never been di never

been diagnosed prenatally before.

564

So they didn't have any way of telling

us what they thought the outcome would

565

be because didn't usually happen.

566

They didn't usually find it till

kids were like four and a half five.

567

That was scary.

568

But um, you know, it

turned out that she died.

569

And

570

Geri Fitz: I'm so sorry.

571

Susan: Well, and it's, you know,

that is just such a, it is tragic.

572

And it's not that uncommon.

573

And we all have things

like that in our lives.

574

Whether it's a child or a parent

or a friend, or, for some people

575

it's stubbing their toe, you know?

576

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

577

Susan: And what I learned was that,

well, the image I had was that we'd

578

taken Sarah Beth's life and we put

it on the countertop at Tiffany's,

579

high end, super expensive store.

580

Stuff I'm never gonna be able

to afford even if I wanted it.

581

And we took it and they

took away her life.

582

It was gone.

583

And I had two options at that point.

584

I could walk away.

585

Being angry and bitter my whole life.

586

Or I could say, well, I can't have

what I really want, but I can have

587

something else that's wonderful.

588

And instead, and so that actually

was the point where I cracked open.

589

That's the point where I simply

couldn't be inauthentic anymore.

590

I had to just be who I was.

591

And the rest is history, as they say.

592

You know, it was, and so, I mean, I

think there's some people who aren't

593

two by four to the head learners like

me, but, if it's gonna happen, you

594

might as well learn something from it.

595

Right?

596

Geri Fitz: We're all different.

597

We're all so different.

598

Susan: We're, we're.

599

And it's, that's what

makes it so wonderful.

600

Geri Fitz: Yeah, it is.

601

It is.

602

It is.

603

One of the courses I often teach or

workshops I run for different people.

604

I talk about, crafting your, underlined,

italicised, good professional life.

605

Yeah.

606

And that the main message I'm trying

to get through is, you can be you.

607

Yeah.

608

Then, then, I can give you some

tools or tips and tricks about

609

how to reflect on who's you.

610

Mm-hmm.

611

Who you are at your best and

who you wanna be, whatever.

612

But it's okay.

613

We're all different.

614

Susan: Yeah, absolutely.

615

Yeah.

616

And you know, when I think about it,

617

my brother basically

dropped dead in February.

618

Geri Fitz: Oh.

619

Susan: And so, oh, it hasn't been fun.

620

And so I wondered when he was dying,

what did he think about his life?

621

Did he regret anything?

622

Did he feel?

623

And I realized that if I were to drop

dead right now, I've had an amazing life.

624

I've had an amazing opportunity to be with

and learn from so many amazing people.

625

And in so many different contexts

that, that richness just kind

626

of, it's kind of seeped in.

627

And so if I were to literally

drop dead right now, you know.

628

It's not what I want, but No.

629

Geri Fitz: Oh, it's a, it's a

nice point of reflection though.

630

Yeah.

631

Good life.

632

Yeah.

633

Susan: Well, I mean, I'm

getting up there in age, so, mm.

634

And I can't keep up with

the youngins anymore.

635

Geri Fitz: Yeah, yeah.

636

That's

637

Susan: all.

638

Yeah.

639

No point in trying.

640

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

641

Because

642

you are aware that it's sort

of at the pointier end of life.

643

Susan: Yeah.

644

It's your legacy.

645

What,

646

Geri Fitz: And you're only going

to be as healthy as you are now.

647

Susan: Yeah.

648

Well, you can be intellectually and

psychologically healthy or even healthier.

649

Your body may not agree with you on that.

650

My body doesn't agree.

651

Geri Fitz: Body definitely doesn't agree.

652

Susan: No, my body does not agree at all.

653

Yeah.

654

But yeah, it's, it's, it's really amazing.

655

Geri Fitz: And that is the real end

now, and Susan is really amazing.

656

I know I have so much to reflect

on after hearing the way that she's

657

navigated the various challenges

that life's thrown her way and just

658

coming through again and again.

659

Her her deep service, her deep love

of people, and her, as she says,

660

listening with heart and the importance

of being you, being who you are.

661

Not so much what you do, but who you are.

662

So much to reflect on.

663

So thank you for listening

and do share this with others.

664

I think Susan's a great role model.

665

You can find the summary notes, a

transcript and related links for this

666

podcast on www.changingacademiclife.com.

667

You can also subscribe to Changing

Academic Life on iTunes, Spotify.

668

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

669

we can do academia differently.

670

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

671

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you, please consider sharing this

672

podcast with your colleagues.

673

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