Evan Peck returns to discuss his career evolution since our last conversation in 2017. The focus is on his initial choice to join a liberal arts college post-PhD, emphasizing the balance between teaching and research, how his research evolved, and on his career goals then. Evan then talks through his move to the University of Colorado Boulder, detailing his motivations and the strategic thinking behind the transition. He reflects on the impact of his work in responsible computing and data visualization and the importance he places on aligning career choices with personal values and goals. Evan also discussed the nuances of working in different academic environments and how he continues to prioritize student mentorship and educational impact.

 Overview

00:00 Intro

03:21 Welcome Back, Evan!

04:33 The Appeal of Liberal Arts Colleges

06:26 Making Academic Paths Visible

09:31 Balancing Teaching and Research

13:21 Shifting Research Interests

22:40 The Move to Colorado

24:40 Integrating Ethics in Computing and Wanting More External Impact

33:50 Reflecting on Post-Tenure Decisions

37:16 Exploring New Opportunities

40:46 The Unexpected Offer

43:34 Transitioning to a Research Institution

47:26 Adapting to a Larger Institution

53:18 Balancing Work and Family

54:30 Reflecting on Career Choices

01:00:16 Final Thoughts and Advice

01:03:05 End

Related Links:

Evan's CU Boulder web page and his personal web page and LinkedIn profile

2017 podcast episode with Evan and his blog post

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

2

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this is

a podcast series where academics and

3

others share their stories, provide

ideas and provoke discussions about what

4

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

5

When I'm talking with PhD students or

early career researchers about their

6

career path, . There's one podcast

episode that I always point them to.

7

And that's my 2017

discussion with Evan Peck.

8

Evan had done his PhD at

Tufts university in the US.

9

And he ended up choosing a career

path at a liberal arts college

10

called Bucknell university.

11

Where he knew his passion

for teaching would be valued.

12

While still being able

to do some research.

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And what was really impressive about

that episode was the very reflective

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and strategic thinking that, that

Evan put into making that choice.

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And the clarity in particular

that he had about his values.

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And as he talked about in that

episode, a clarity about the

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things that he takes joy in doing.

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I love that.

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So I was really curious then to see that

after nine years at Bucknell, Evan moved

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to university of Colorado, Boulder.

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So I wanted to understand how

he decided on this next move.

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Particularly seeing that he'd said in

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for him to move to somewhere like

a research institution having chosen

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Bucknell, just recognizing the trade

offs that all of our choices entail.

25

And so I'm really happy to bring this

follow-up conversation with Evan Peck.

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Evan is now an associate professor and

also associate chair of undergraduate

27

studies, which won't surprise you

after listening to this episode in

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the information science faculty at

university of Colorado, Boulder.

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In this episode, he shares

how his career at Bucknell has

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unfolded to get to this point.

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And this is included things like

setting up an impactful jobs board

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initiative as an advocate for

academic careers in art schools.

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He talks about how he's research

interests evolve to focus more

34

around information visualization

and computing ethics education.

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And also this growing feeling of

wanting to have more external impact

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in computer science education.

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That's sort of triggered some

of the, starting to look around.

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And so the story of how he actually

ended up at CU Boulder is one of both,

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some serendipity and also have some

very clear considerations of what was

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important to him and his family and

what sort of impact he did want to have.

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This episode will be joining my list

of recommendations to people about

42

making values led career choices.

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Enjoy.

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So great to have you again

on the podcast, Evan.

45

I'm really excited to talk to you

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I released the episode in August 2017.

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My trigger for wanting to talk

to you again now is that you've

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recently, or last year, you moved

to University of Colorado Boulder.

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I'm really curious to understand the

thinking around that move, given how

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much thought you put into the first move.

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For context, Can you introduce

yourself a little bit to start with?

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Evan: Yeah, so the last time when we,

you know, we did this last time, I

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believe it was in Denver, Colorado,

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Geri: Yeah, actually it was.

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That was the conference.

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Yeah,

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Evan: so I was part of an

early career workshop there.

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And it was really interesting kind

of looking back at that is as part of

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that career workshop, we articulate

some of our goals and career goals.

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And, you know, one of my career goals

was to, I think, make more visible

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some of the kind of more diverse

academic paths and in particular at

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that time, liberal arts colleges.

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Geri: mm,

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Evan: And, for context, in case folks

haven't heard that podcast or read

65

that blog post, you know, liberal arts

colleges are undergraduate institutions.

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They tend to be smaller.

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You have no PhD students.

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You have smaller classes.

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So there's a real sort of focus, a

heavier priority on teaching.

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I would say on undergraduate mentorship.

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We are the very often almost

Always the academic advisors of

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our undergraduate students as well.

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So there's a close relationship

between undergraduates, um, and faculty.

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But also, there's still a

priority on scholarship.

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So, you know, I was really drawn to

these institutions after graduate

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school, because for me, they created

this really nice balance between teaching

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and research, because I knew I was

going to invest in teaching, uh, but at

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the same time, I didn't want to become

invisible in my scholarly community.

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I still, you know, was really passionate

about human computer interaction,

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increasingly about data visualization,

and I wanted the opportunity to

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still be able to explore that space

and have impact in that space.

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For me, there was this, you

know, very multidimensional

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way of thinking about that.

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You know, what's important to me.

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What's important to me was, being valued

for teaching, uh, not feeling like my

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investment into teaching would cause

problems for a tenure case, for example.

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And, obviously there are family

dynamics, you know, where can we live?

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Where can we afford?

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What does the community look like?

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What does the quality of life look like?

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Uh, and for all those reasons,

uh, you know, I found these

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institutions incredibly compelling.

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And I, I still think that's the case.

94

Geri: mm.

95

And I remember running into you a

couple of years after that and we were

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just saying it was probably in 2019.

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And I do remember you saying

how you were really loving it,

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and love the lifestyle there.

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Evan: Yeah.

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And, it's really interesting.

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I think that actually

soon after that podcast.

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And between I wrote a blog, a whole blog

post kind of explaining my rationale

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for this between that blog post and the

podcast, you know, I started getting more

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and more emails from people looking to

go in the job market and wanting advice

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and how to even find these institutions.

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So it actually led me to develop this

at, at the time was a very ad hoc way

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of, um, looking at positions online

that were coming online and sort of

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making visible the ones that I felt like

aligned, with these similar priorities

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and balances of teaching and research.

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And, that whole thing is blown

out into a large job board.

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And, so it's really interesting to

just even reflect back and see how that

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was a catalyst, I think, going forward.

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Um, I think I said in that career

document I wrote for that, that I

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hoped to make these paths visible.

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And it was really kind of interesting

to read what I was hoping to do then.

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Some of it came into fruition.

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It was amazing.

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Geri: Yeah.

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That is amazing.

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So is the jobs board

still active, up to date,

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Evan: Yeah.

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So it used to be, it used to be because

basically what would happen is people

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would email me and they would say things

like, Oh, I find this really interesting.

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I'd like to explore this.

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I have no idea how to

find these institutions.

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But I realized how challenging it

could be if you didn't sort of, if you

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weren't there already, um, you didn't

know what sorts of things to look

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for in the job, job advertisements,

what kind of institutions, you

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know, what are the signals that

might suggest this kind of balance.

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Um, so it started out just me

looking at job boards every year

131

and, I think the first time I made

it, it was a Twitter thread, and

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then it was a Medium blog post.

133

Um, and then I turned it into a

website, and so, actually now it's

134

at the point, thankfully, where

there are other people helping me.

135

And also, we actually do very

little of looking around the

136

job advertisement boards now.

137

Now, for the most part, departments

come to us and post things.

138

Geri: Brilliant.

139

Evan: Yeah, so it's been wonderful.

140

Geri: So one of your goals back in 17

about making more visible diverse academic

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paths, you can really do a tick on that.

142

Doesn't mean a complete done tick,

but a big step in that direction

143

then from the sounds of it.

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Evan: Yeah, and given how I think

nonlinear most of our careers are, it's

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very rare that you can, you know, say a

goal 5 to 7 years ago and then feel like

146

Geri: Yeah.

147

But probably just putting in a

series of potential job positions or

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colleges in a Twitter post didn't feel

like a big step in that direction.

149

It's only in the looking back that

you can see actually it does really do

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that, the helping make that visible.

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Evan: Yeah, for sure.

152

And I think that, I mean, it's one of

those things where I invest more when I

153

see that people value it more, so, you

know, the Twitter post was because I

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wasn't going to build a website with

something that seemed, that's a lot of

155

time to invest on something that seemed

like, I don't know how valuable it was,

156

but, you know, a lot of people found that

really valuable and then started passing

157

it along and, know, asking me for more.

158

So, uh, you know, just slowly evolved.

159

Geri: So that's interesting as well,

because one of the things that you

160

really talked about, in both the

blog post that you wrote in 17 and

161

our podcast conversation, was how

at the beginning you thought it was,

162

Teaching schools or research schools.

163

And it was one or the other.

164

What are you hearing from the people

who are coming to you, asking for

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advice or information or pointers.

166

What are the values that they're

looking for also somehow connect in that

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lovely middle that you've identified?

168

Evan: Yeah.

169

I mean, I think, I think for many people

it's, it's, it's often hard to articulate

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specifically what the values are.

171

And maybe it's more I mean,

sometimes there's a clear desire for

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more teaching oriented positions,

a clear desire for more sort of

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mentorship with undergraduates.

174

Other times, I think there is a desire

to be in academia, to be a professor, and

175

realizing that maybe the environment I

just came out of, let's say a big, very

176

research heavy institution, just seeing

that that, that isn't a good fit for me.

177

Uh, so it's almost, I think it's

almost like discovering your values

178

through counterexamples in some ways.

179

Geri: Yeah,

180

because you did reflect on both of

those points, both the you did not

181

want to be putting in the hours that

you saw some people doing that you

182

recognize they might have been happy

doing, but you didn't want to do that.

183

As well as recognising that you

really valued teaching and loved

184

that and wanted that valued.

185

Evan: Yeah, and, you know, it was really

interesting re listening to myself

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from seven years ago, which is just a

horrifying exercise for any of us, I

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think, but, you know, I think it was true.

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I remember that first semester,

I mean, your first year

189

teaching is Really difficult.

190

You know, you're, especially with a

higher teaching load, you know, you're

191

doing a bunch of new prep simultaneously.

192

It's just exhausting.

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But I remember feeling at the time

that those hours did not feel nearly

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as exhausting as the same hours I was

putting in as at a PhD, you know, there

195

was something, uh, I think we talked

about like the feedback loops or, or just,

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I think it was just being more aligned

with what I wanted to do at that time.

197

Um, and it has a huge impact

on how burdensome a job feels.

198

Geri: yes, yeah.

199

And that's a lot of what the burnout

literature talks about too, that it's

200

not just working hard or long, it's

that connection to, or disconnection

201

to, what's important to you, what you

care about, or feeling like the works

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valued are important in some way.

203

Evan: Yeah, exactly.

204

Geri: Yeah.

205

What else did you have on the

goals on your five to seven

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year goals on that document.

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I'm just curious.

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Evan: Yeah, there are a couple

of really interesting ones.

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Um, let's see here.

210

I, I know that, yeah, so being an

advocate for academic careers in

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art schools was the, was a big one.

212

Um, there was also thinking about, I

remember putting something about sort of

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broadening computer science to invite

a broader diversity also of students,

214

but also Um, and I think this comes

from more of the HCI human computer

215

interaction background, thinking about

how to integrate those perspectives

216

and do a computer science department

that didn't have, you know, a lot of

217

rich background in those perspectives.

218

So I think broadening even the

view of what computer science

219

could be was also in there.

220

Um.

221

And then, yeah, it's really interesting

to see, I also was talking about, at the

222

time, I did my PhD at Tufts University,

I was working on, during my PhD, I

223

did brain computer interfaces, and in

that document, I was writing about how

224

do I, how do I be known for something

other than brain computer interfaces,

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Geri: Mm.

226

Evan: You know, how do I pivot my research

so people don't just see me as the, I

227

don't just get reviews for a hundred

brain computer interface papers, um,

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because I was getting more interested

in data visualization and broadly the

229

impact of communicating data to wider

audiences at the time, but it was really

230

hard to kind of shift that identity.

231

Geri: Mm.

232

Was it because you weren't in love

with brain computer interfaces as

233

much as you thought you would be

and it was a practical job to get it

234

done to completion for a thesis tick?

235

Or what was the desire for a pivot?

236

Evan: I think there are a couple things.

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I mean, there are certainly overlapping.

238

I started getting involved in a couple

of projects during my PhD that were

239

more related to data visualization.

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Um, I think there are a

lot of pieces going on.

241

I mean, I think I started to have more

urgency in short term impact among,

242

you know, people similar to the people I

lived among my my local communities, and

243

I thought about brain computer interfaces.

244

I mean, there are a couple of things.

245

One is just very logistically.

246

It's really challenging to do

with just undergraduate students.

247

You really need that

sort of length of peachy.

248

So there was logistical

challenges, practical challenges,

249

but also, you know, I imagine.

250

Okay, let's imagine my research

visions come to fruition.

251

That's 20-30 years from now at the time.

252

It, it felt like, and then it would

probably be accessible primarily

253

to, you know, the top income earners

for another 20 years after that.

254

And, and so it became a little

bit more detached, I think,

255

from my values in research.

256

Um, and as I began kind of like

doing a little bit more research in

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data visualization, I thought there

was a lot of opportunity there.

258

It was an important moment, you know,

as, as we talk about things like

259

misinformation, disinformation, more and

more, uh, we lean on data visualization

260

as a very important mechanism to

communicate with the public, whether

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it's pandemics or climate change.

262

And I thought that there were

and are clear shortfalls in the

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way we communicate these things to

everyday people, diverse communities

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with, you know, rich backgrounds,

but also, different technology

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access and educational background.

266

And so to me, it was more

of where can I be impactful,

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impactful in the people around me.

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Um, and even that changed

over time, frankly.

269

Um, you know, when I give talks,

I talk about, you know, it's

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really interesting looking at

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the 2016 election.

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The United States is a really

interesting moment because that's

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when we started, I think, publicly

talking about misinformation,

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disinformation, a lot more, um, and

sort of public conversations, you

275

know, I mean, obviously, these scholars

have been talking about for forever,

276

but that's really when I entered

the public sphere and I remember

277

thinking, I could have this long,

rich career in data visualization.

278

Uh, I could, you know, parade

around with papers and give talks

279

and, I don't know, win best paper

awards and have this lauded career.

280

And I was looking at those voting maps

in which, you know, where I lived before

281

in Boston, looked the complete inverse

to where I lived currently in Lewisburg,

282

Pennsylvania, in rural Pennsylvania.

283

And, you know, it became clear to

me that, You know, this isn't some

284

dramatic insight, but it's obvious

that people there see some kinds of

285

information fundamentally differently.

286

And yet all the research I had been

doing, and a lot of the research that

287

comes out in this field comes from places

that have very different kind of like

288

socioeconomic and political identities.

289

Um, and so I began to have this kind

of scary thought that I could be

290

well lauded in an academic community

and have zero impact in anyone

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that lived within 50 miles of me.

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Geri: Right.

293

Oh.

294

Wow.

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I see an interesting couple of red threads

there because having an impact matters

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to you and having that more immediate

feedback loop of the impact that you're

297

having and whether that was from hearing

people saying the effort in the jobs

298

board was valuable, which encourage

you to do more to also just recognizing

299

that if you're going to do a work in

this data viz area, for example, who are

300

you wanting to have impact on and for?

301

And is it just for your CV

and for your best paper award?

302

Or, do you actually really want to

have impact on the people around?

303

You said that it's hard to do research

at a liberal arts college in, not, you

304

didn't say it was hard to do research.

305

You said you don't have PhD students.

306

And so, did that also factor in, like

BCI needed a much more sophisticated

307

resource set up to do research in that

area, apart from the impact issues?

308

And was this also, this pivot,

also a way of connecting to a topic

309

that was pragmatic in the people

that you could draw in to help you?

310

Evan: Yeah, I think so.

311

And I think, you know, I think that

I probably would have ended up there

312

anyways, but it was certainly a catalyst.

313

Um, it probably expedited that process.

314

You know, thinking about what can I think

the reality with most undergraduates

315

and most undergraduates, they want a

many undergraduates who are interested

316

in research, very few of them actually

want to do it for multiple years.

317

They're exploring their

own careers themselves.

318

They want to do research one summer

and then an internship next summer.

319

And so the reality is you have them

for three months, maybe six months.

320

And so you really have to think,

I think, really strategically

321

about, what is really beneficial

for them within that time.

322

I can't give them the

whole history of the field.

323

It's, you know, how do we,

um, look at projects that are

324

doable within that context.

325

And also how can I expose them to.

326

Even with I think something like

BCI work, I think part of my mission

327

and sort of broadening the scope of

how students think about computing.

328

know, if I think about ways

to chunk up some of that.

329

BCI work.

330

One way is okay, let's have

you focus on building a model.

331

But that's maybe that's not the

broader view of computer science

332

that I'm interested in the moment.

333

You know, I became increasingly interested

in the more the social intersections.

334

And so, not only am I personally

interested in this in my scholarship,

335

but how can then I help my students

see the way that, uh, technology

336

really deeply intersects with

their communities and their cultural

337

backgrounds and things like that.

338

Geri: Can I just reflect back to you

how amazing what you've just said is

339

because you did not talk about how

can I make best use of these students

340

in their three months, six months

working with me to advance my research

341

agenda and help me get my papers out.

342

It was all about how can I think

strategically about what's beneficial

343

to them, or how can I expose

them to new ideas or advances.

344

That's pretty amazing to have

that orientation to your students.

345

Evan: Yeah.

346

And I, I do think that maybe this is

one of those values that I think draws

347

people to these kinds of institutions.

348

I think there are a lot of like minded

people at these institutions in which.

349

You know, research with undergraduates

is seen as a teaching endeavor.

350

It's part of your research, but

it's really fundamentally seen as an

351

amplifier I think of these students.

352

Um, and in fact, I, I, I think there's

research that 1 of the most high impact

353

experiences that undergraduates can have

in terms of even things like retention

354

and feelings of belonging in a department.

355

Um, and so I think that sort of

view of research is different.

356

Um, but I also think that, I mean,

I think there are a lot of us who

357

sort of feel our long term impact is

probably through our students anyways

358

Geri: Yeah, yeah,

359

Evan: That's our amplifying impact.

360

Geri: yeah.

361

And you certainly sound like

you bring a lot of care to

362

how you engage with students.

363

So it sounds like you actually really

You enjoyed working at Bucknell and,

364

and also found ways to make it work as

well for the impacts that you wanted

365

to have and what you wanted to achieve.

366

And also the lifestyle that you wanted

to have in a small community area.

367

Can you talk about the,

the move to Colorado then?

368

Okay.

369

Evan: Yeah.

370

Yeah.

371

I'll start out by telling you what

did not motivate it because one

372

of my fears when I made this move

373

Geri: Mm mm

374

Evan: is that I have been so

vocal publicly for so long

375

about liberal arts colleges.

376

I was really concerned it'd be viewed

by a lot of people as sort of a,

377

Uh, I don't know, a rejection of

all the, you know, that something

378

had gone wrong in that space.

379

.

So it wasn't about moving away from a liberal arts college,

380

um, or a small college.

381

And I expect we'll get

there in a little bit.

382

But, um, in fact, when I was looking

around a little bit the second

383

time through, Colorado is the only

non, I would say the only research

384

institution I was looking at, um,

385

and it also wasn't the case

that I think the other one that

386

the other simple explanation.

387

I think that that people not hope for,

but it's easy to wrap your mind around.

388

It's, like, Oh, something horribly

wrong must have happened, right?

389

Um, you must have been part

of like a toxic environment.

390

None of that was true either.

391

Um, I had incredibly supportive

colleagues, especially, you know, being

392

in human computer interact, uh, in HCI.

393

That's not always the case in an

engineering college, but, you know,

394

I had incredible support from my

associate dean up to my dean, and so

395

that that also was not the case.

396

Geri: Yeah.

397

Evan: Um, I think the reality is

it's, it's not big, dramatic moments.

398

It's, I think, slow shifts.

399

It's really interesting, even, I

think this is something easy for

400

my students to reflect on, where

I ask them to think about who

401

they were five to seven years ago.

402

You know, and there's a reason

they would feel horrified

403

listening to, like, a podcast of

themselves five or seven years ago.

404

Right?

405

Because they shift, and they change.

406

I mean, they change more

dramatically than we probably do it.

407

But there are little shifts.

408

Um, you know, soon after, A number of

things, both personal and professional,

409

that shifted in slow, in tiny ways,

um, soon after our podcast, actually I

410

had, um, a really lovely undergraduate

student who worked with me one

411

summer, and, and she was helping

me actually recreate my HCI course.

412

She finished her part of the

job, like three weeks early.

413

So.

414

In sort of a what do what do I do?

415

I wasn't expecting this.

416

So we had her develop a new activity

for introductory computer science

417

class on responsible computing.

418

Um, the integrated programming

with sort of more responsible

419

computing social impact.

420

And that led to a years

long trajectory with me.

421

In which I became more and more interested

in integrating ethics and social impact

422

directly into computing curriculum.

423

And that's been an incredible

magnifier of my career.

424

We could spend entire podcasts on

that, but it also, I think, changed

425

a little bit how I, my own personal

mission in computing education.

426

Um,

427

you know, I did a lot of work in, in, in

changing core computer science courses

428

to integrate social responsibility

directly into their curriculum.

429

Geri: Mm.

430

Evan: And I've been fortunate

that that has amplified my career

431

in a number of different ways.

432

And, , a lot of folks have used that

material, but it also, I think that

433

when I zoomed out and started thinking

about this problem more deeply, and how

434

do we make computing a more responsible

and socially impactful discipline, I

435

think, yes, changing computer science

is necessary, but also, I think it means

436

that computer science can't do it alone.

437

You know, we really desperately

need these other disciplines

438

involved in this initiative and

the social sciences and humanities.

439

And so I became interested in.

440

You know, what are ways in which education

can serve a wider body of students?

441

How can we get students to talk

about artificial intelligence

442

without taking two calculus courses

in a linear algebra course first?

443

It's impacting their jobs.

444

It's going to impact their communities.

445

We need to give them avenues to do that.

446

Um, and you know, I think when you're

in a computer science department in

447

engineering college, I think that

philosophically everyone agrees, but

448

it's really hard to structurally pull off

that wider view at the same time, which

449

computer science departments are getting

crushed with enrollment and you're barely

450

able to hold down your core courses

and your fundamental goal is to be an

451

engineering computer science program.

452

So I think increasingly, I felt that

453

it was hard for me to have the larger

external impact in this space or to

454

explore different iterations of courses,

and so I think that that was just

455

little, you know, little friction points.

456

If I kind of pitch the same ideas to folks

at my institution, I think we'd all agree.

457

Right?

458

Um, so this wasn't people saying, Oh,

no, we don't believe in this vision.

459

But it's really challenging.

460

And so I think there's a little bit

of a tension also between do I want

461

my career to be focused on internal

impact versus external impact?

462

And what's the balance there?

463

Um, that's really challenging to

work out because I believe in both.

464

Um, so that that is certainly one piece.

465

Um.

466

And then I think that, you know, as

we were talking about on the data viz

467

research side, I think last time we met

in Glasgow, we were actually presenting a

468

best paper award that was really valuable.

469

Um, driven by myself and three

undergraduate students in which

470

they went and they did interviews

in rural Pennsylvania with people

471

and brought charts and graphs

to them and just talk to them.

472

And it really kind of pushed back

a little bit on really common ways

473

of conceptualizing or simplifying

visualization design , like simple rules.

474

We found that, for example, that people,

probably not surprisingly, but it

475

didn't matter how you designed a graph.

476

If people found personal resonance

with it, if they saw their community,

477

the reflective, they saw their own

personal issues reflected in the graph.

478

That's what drew their attention.

479

Geri: mm

480

Evan: Um, and so I think that partially

through the responsible computing

481

initiatives, which I think we're

getting increased external visibility

482

through, you know, that initiative and

trying to create data visualization

483

for a wider set of people and data

communication for wider set of people.

484

I began to feel like I could have a

stronger external voice, um, but it was

485

really, it was increasingly challenging

to negotiate that with, I think just

486

the kind of the structural realities

of being a computer science department

487

that's overloaded with students.

488

Um, and my core responsibility there is to

serve that department and that means, you

489

know, teaching a lot of core CS classes.

490

That means advising more and more students

every year because that's what's needed.

491

Um, and I didn't want to, I didn't

want to do badly at that job.

492

But that's one way to maintain that, I

493

Geri: mm.

494

Evan: External impact is you

sort of cut corners other places,

495

Geri: Yes.

496

Yeah.

497

Evan: I felt like that was the

core mission of the institution

498

that didn't settle with me.

499

So I began to feel those tensions.

500

I think more and more.

501

Personally, we began to feel

distance from family more and more.

502

We weren't near either of our families.

503

Um, because the Bucknall's rural

setting, you don't aren't an

504

easy access to an airport either.

505

So we began to feel that more.

506

And so it's just, it's an

accumulation of little things.

507

Um, my wife would be quick to

tell you that I have always

508

adored being near cities.

509

I think probably more

than the average person.

510

You know, I think a good way to

put it is that when you're an

511

assistant professor, you have this

when I wrote that document, right?

512

Tenure is sort of the

carrot in front of you.

513

It's this big benchmark.

514

Um, and a lot of your goals are oriented

to this really, substantial moment

515

in your life, which your institution

decides whether they keep you or not.

516

And then you pass that

you pass that hurdle.

517

And then you say, Oh, what, what are

the next 30 years of my life look like?

518

Geri: That's interesting.

519

That is a theme I hear quite

often with people that, in terms

520

of career transitions and really

important inflection points.

521

It's not just the getting tenure,

but it's what happens after tenure,

522

it's because it's that space to

go, Oh, now that I've done that,

523

what do I really want to work on?

524

Evan: Yeah.

525

And it was probably amplified

because, I celebrated with

526

my colleagues getting tenure.

527

And then three weeks later, the

world shut down with the pandemic.

528

Uh,

529

Geri: yeah,

530

Evan: So, you know, in terms of times in

which people get really reflective about

531

their careers and where they're headed.

532

I think that that was

certainly those two things

533

Geri: Oh, so that's

another little coincident.

534

Um, you know, you said the small

things that all just added up.

535

Evan: Yeah.

536

Geri: Can I just digress very quickly

for a tick, and I'm curious about

537

what were the criteria that you had to

measure against for your tenure case

538

Evan: I mean, excellence

in teaching is important.

539

Geri: a core thing?

540

Was it core, given the community,

Liberal Arts Community College?

541

Evan: I think that is common there.

542

I think maybe somewhat surprisingly

to some people, I would say the main

543

anxiety that most faculty feel is

actually still around the research

544

side, because there's still expected

publications and engagement with research.

545

At most liberal arts colleges, there's

not an expectation for grants, although

546

that's external funding, although

that's considered a bonus and nice

547

to see as just like more evidence.

548

Yeah, there was an expectation of

an engagement of engagement there.

549

And scholarly productivity, certainly.

550

Um, and that varies dramatically,

I would say, between liberal arts

551

institutions, um, partially depending

on how low or high your teaching

552

load is and the institutional

resources and things like that.

553

Geri: Were you stressed about it at all,

or was it just a process to go through?

554

Evan: I probably was less

so than most faculty.

555

I had had some.

556

Um, I think some scholarly

wins that I think made me feel,

557

I think, pretty comfortable.

558

Um, certainly that, that paper

and that, that paper at CHI, that

559

one year won a best paper award

with undergraduate students.

560

And so it just felt like a kind

of a check mark on that side.

561

Um, so I was really fortunate to

not feel the same kind of stress

562

that I think is more common.

563

Geri: Hmm.

564

So you get your tenure, and I

know as you said, a little while

565

after, the world shuts down.

566

And, if I go back to your 2017 blog

post, like your data visualization

567

is a lovely strong thread, because

even in this blog post, you've got

568

all these lovely visualizations

of your hand drawn sort of things.

569

So one of the things that you have

there is a bit of a mind map or

570

whatever of all of the questions and

criteria you were asking yourself in

571

considering about a next career step.

572

What did you do post tenure then

in terms of that sort of reflective

573

process or working out what the criteria

for, because it feels like a lot of

574

these little small things were coming

together to just say it might be

575

time to start looking somewhere else.

576

Um,

577

Evan: Yeah And I would say another thing

that that helped transition those into

578

maybes into a little bit more action

was, I think the last time we on the

579

podcast, I had a, I don't know, a five

year old son and a one year old daughter.

580

And now I had a son that was

getting close to middle school age

581

and, I had a daughter that was

about to enter elementary school.

582

And, In talking to my wife, you know,

it was really important to us to not,

583

like for us, we didn't want to do a big

transition if ever happened in the future.

584

We didn't want to do it while they

were partway through middle school

585

or partway through high school.

586

Um, so it actually felt like there was

a little bit of a, at least for us, a

587

little bit of a ticking clock of, well,

if we explore this, maybe now is actually

588

the moment in which we do explore it.

589

Geri: So actually lots of things

came together in an interesting way.

590

Evan: Yeah, yeah.

591

Yeah, it was a convergence and, I

think that we went into that

592

process, um, very open to the idea

and actually probably expecting

593

that we would stay where we were.

594

I think there were a

lot of reasons to stay.

595

We had an incredibly lovely

community, um, a good institution.

596

I have wonderful colleagues.

597

Um, but you know, I think it was important

for me increasingly to, you know, you

598

get those, those grasses, greener itches.

599

Geri: Um,

600

Evan: And I was like, I need to

make sure the grass isn't greener.

601

Although it's interesting, you know,

one of my good friends, at the time

602

he said to me something which I think

was very true and actually helped

603

inform the way I thought about it.

604

He said, you know, it's probably

unlikely the grass is greener.

605

Anywhere.

606

So you probably want to just see

if you like the color better.

607

Geri: The different sort of green rather

608

Evan: Yeah,

609

Geri: than or whatever green.

610

Yeah.

611

Yeah.

612

But it is just, I don't know that having

the wherewithal to even recognize that

613

there's this little bit of a, um, um, you

know, um, there's more you want to do,

614

and also the timing and the opportunity.

615

Evan: Yeah.

616

I think it's hard to tease out what

is factors of my, you know, what will

617

change with my environment changes

versus, you know, maybe there's

618

just work I need to do to make sure

I'm happier, you know, more content.

619

Geri: Yeah,

620

Evan: You know, it reminds me of like

being in relationships, you know,

621

sometimes where you know, is this a

me problem or is this an us problem?

622

Geri: yes, yeah.

623

So, you started then actively

looking or just keeping an

624

eye or what happened next?

625

Evan: I decided I went on sabbatical.

626

I did sabbatical with the MIT

visualization group at MIT.

627

Um, and I think after that, I decided

to at least, you know, this is the time

628

to kind of maybe at least look around to

629

Geri: And you got your city fix again.

630

Evan: Yeah.

631

Um, And, uh, we had sort of a

checklist, you know, it wouldn't,

632

you know, we're generally happy.

633

It wouldn't be worth moving unless right.

634

So, like, it wouldn't be worth moving

unless we're no further away from family.

635

It wouldn't be worth moving unless

it was in a place that had, let's

636

say, better access to airports or,

or, you know, suburban or urban

637

environments or things like that.

638

Um, it wouldn't be worth moving

unless we felt like it was a

639

significant professional change.

640

I think that's partly why we thought

we might stay because, you know, it's

641

hard to check off a lot of these boxes.

642

Um, but I had a huge benefit of

that, you know, because I've been

643

plugged into these community, you

know, you have a lot of benefits

644

after being in academia for a while.

645

You kind of know about a lot of

institutions, you know, people there

646

and you have a much, I think, stronger

sense of not only places that you

647

would value, but also places that

you think would value you as well.

648

Um, so we started out very, very

highly selective search process.

649

Um, you know, four or five institutions

that I was curious about and almost

650

all of them were liberal arts colleges

and some teaching track colleges even.

651

I didn't want to limit it to

a particular kind of position.

652

Um, I thought, frankly, if you'd asked

me at the beginning, I thought I would

653

end up at another liberal arts college,

possibly just in a different location

654

with a slightly different emphasis that

might allow me to pursue the social

655

context of computing a little bit more.

656

Um, that's probably what

I would have guessed.

657

Geri: So you weren't, you weren't

aiming necessarily to move into

658

a research intensive institution

659

Evan: No, and in fact, I can tell you at

that time, because I'd been at a liberal

660

arts college, and because I hadn't

pursued a lot of external funding, I

661

didn't think that was a viable option.

662

Geri: Right.

663

Because I remember you saying in 17

that you thought that that could be

664

one of the, you know, there are always

trade offs to any decision and one of

665

the trade offs in going to a liberal

arts may be that it's harder to move

666

then into research institution.

667

Evan: And in part, particularly because I

had already, I was tenured, and I didn't

668

want to reset that clock, um, and go

back to being untenured somewhere and go

669

through that whole thing all over again.

670

So I think it probably would have been

easier to, to conceptualize if I was

671

willing to kind of concede that, um.

672

But because I wasn't, I actually

didn't really have it on the radar.

673

Um, I was interested, I think there are

now, you know, very different from last

674

time actually, now there are dedicated

teaching track positions at universities

675

that are much more compelling now than

they were the first time we talked.

676

Particularly in computer science,

I think the pay has gotten better.

677

The opportunities for

scholarship has gotten better.

678

The teaching load has gotten better.

679

And so I actually, you know, I was

open to some teaching track positions.

680

Um, and, you know, incredible

happenstance, I was talking to.

681

You know, a colleague at C.U.

682

Boulder, because I was even open

to, you know, if I'm going to just

683

explore my career options, I'd like to

just explore what else is out there.

684

So I was talking to a colleague, not

thinking about them as a destination,

685

because I didn't think that was

viable, because we had similar

686

interests, basically saying, hey,

you're pretty plugged into what's

687

going on in the industry, if

you see something really cool and

688

interesting, just pass it along my way.

689

What

690

Geri: In industry.

691

So you were even looking at industry

692

Evan: I probably not, but I was, you

know, I was curious, yeah, there's

693

interesting things along the lines, you

know, if, if it checked those boxes of,

694

you know, allowed me to, especially cause

I think there are some more educational

695

interesting, there's some like, Apple

has some interesting educational

696

initiatives and Microsoft had, so I

could imagine myself maybe being in a

697

place like that where you get to these

companies that are, you know, molding

698

a little bit of technical education.

699

And if you could have a voice in

that would be really interesting

700

and compelling space too.

701

Um, so I think educational

mission was a big.

702

A big thing too.

703

So, you know, I, I was looking

at, you know, the Bard's college,

704

they've had really interesting,

unique educational missions.

705

A couple of teaching track

places that really interesting,

706

unique educational missions.

707

So I asked his colleague this and,

um, what I didn't, I really realize

708

is, they really needed a visualization

person in their department.

709

Um, I think their department, I guess

I can say we are a department now, but

710

at the time it was their department

that I think values teaching pretty

711

heavily I think for a traditional

research department, um, they're

712

folks I'd intersected with for years.

713

And so I mean, the, the, the big

curve ball in my process was, they

714

reached out to me, um, and they

made the pitch to me initially.

715

Geri: Mm

716

Evan: And so it was not something

that I could have ever predicted, and

717

this is where my, my, my wife's entire

family's from is from the Denver area.

718

It was just a wild set of circumstances

and, you know, the shift from being an

719

information science department in which

you aren't beholden to the calculus pre

720

reqs or, you know, the physics pre reqs,

but you can really sort of envision.

721

And be with a group of people that I

think their core value is to envision

722

what is an ethical social, what

is an ethical future of computing?

723

And how does that intersect with

kind of our social communities.

724

And having people i, you know,

seen it from a distance just do

725

incredibly inspiring scholarship

in this space for years.

726

And then I think seeing how they

value the undergraduate educational

727

experience, and finding out that,

you know, what my scholarship and my

728

work could be translated there and I

could shift over there with tenure.

729

So it

730

Geri: mm

731

Evan: you know, I think the surprising

thing to most people is that in the end,

732

I was debating between an offer between

a teaching track position, a liberal

733

arts college and a research institution.

734

Um, and they are so structurally,

they are so radically different.

735

But, when I measure them against

the things that I was valuing,

736

they were the three most compelling

places to me, despite those

737

dramatic structural differences.

738

Geri: Yeah.

739

Yeah.

740

Wow.

741

I love the, you said about happenstance

and that again, like that's a story

742

I just hear so often about, you just

never know and just making needs known.

743

That sounds amazing, the way it's

worked out and connected to both the

744

pivot that you're making in the, data

visualization and the way that you

745

want to play it out, as well as that

really strong emphasis still on valuing

746

education and being able to have that

broader impact that you want to have.

747

Evan: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

748

And I'm now the associate chair of

undergraduate studies in the department,

749

so it's it's a really a continuity.

750

I don't, I mean, there are things

about my job that are very different,

751

but a lot of I think the things I

care about, they're still very clear

752

threads from my prior institution.

753

So that's why.

754

Geri: Did you volunteer for that role?

755

Evan: They asked me if I'd be interested

in it, not during the job hunt, but

756

I sort of suspect that was maybe like

an undercurrent of maybe why um, uh,

757

Geri: Because you've always been clear

you've had a passion for computing

758

science education or education.

759

Evan: yeah, and, and I, I love

the vision of the department, you

760

know, I love, um, it's really.

761

Interesting to be in a department in

which we have very few to no pre reqs

762

in most of these courses, so if you

are a student in a different field and

763

you want to get that access to AI or

machine learning, and you don't want to

764

compete with the computer science students

or take all these technical courses

765

first, um, we are the avenue for that.

766

And I've said that I find also

it really compelling being in

767

a public state institution.

768

I think there is an inherent

public mission to these institutions

769

that I find really compelling.

770

Um, that doesn't mean that they have

less problems in other institutions.

771

That's that's for sure.

772

But I, I find that the core mission of the

institution is to serve, you know, all the

773

people in Colorado is really a compelling

educational mission for me as well.

774

Um, so I find that really interesting.

775

Geri: um, that also sounds very

inclusive when it's information

776

science and you have the ability to

take in people from diverse backgrounds.

777

Which also means it goes to that, um,

expanding the impact on different ways

778

of thinking or people with different

backgrounds as well and where they

779

might then go off to afterwards.

780

Evan: Yeah, I think it's really

interesting being able to.

781

I think have a curriculum that can

serve a student body that isn't going to

782

necessarily end up in software development

783

Geri: mm, mm,

784

Evan: engineering positions, but I don't

know, they could end up in tech policy.

785

They could end up in, you

know, just, I don't know.

786

We've folks from psychology are

taking our courses and folks from.

787

You're interested in climate change,

taking our courses and folks that

788

are interested in more community

organizations, taking our courses.

789

And I think to me, that's a really

interesting vision of computing.

790

Um, because yes, it has.

791

I think the change has to happen

in computer science, but, um,

792

it has to happen on both sides.

793

Geri: Yeah.

794

And that, as you said, that

sort of impact, the broadening

795

out is really valuable.

796

Like, , Engaging more and more people

with notions of responsible thinking

797

around these new technologies.

798

What have been some of the biggest

differences for you in like moving from

799

one institution to the other in your

role, because you're still ostensibly

800

an associate professor in each place.

801

Um, and I know that the one's

a computer science, one's an

802

information science, but what are

the other sort of key differences?

803

Evan: There's the, there's the big and

obvious ones, which is, so having,

804

you know, PhD students and master's

students and, having a research lab.

805

I mean, I had a, an undergraduate research

lab, but it's a different sort of, it's

806

a different flavor of research, I think,

and thinking about mentorship on the scale

807

of five years instead of five months, I

808

Geri: I was just going to say it's the

time scale in particular, isn't it?

809

Because you just said three to six

months for your undergraduates.

810

Evan: Yeah.

811

And really thinking about.

812

You know how difficult that journey

is for many graduate students

813

and how dramatically advisor

relationships impacts that journey.

814

Um, so , that's a pretty significant,

I think, shift and, uh, you

815

know, responsibility in a whole

different direction, I think.

816

Um, thinking about, you know, how do

817

Geri: How are you engaging in that?

818

Like, are there courses to take or are you

reading books or, talking to colleagues?

819

Like, how are you?

820

Evan: definitely talking

a lot to colleagues.

821

you know, one thing

that I think is really..

822

I think there have been some folks

who've been really thoughtful

823

and, uh, particularly in HCI.

824

There are a lot of people who write

a lot of really detailed almost

825

lab manuals for their labs now.

826

But it gets across not only the,

you know, what we do here, but it's

827

sort of our values and our vision

and things like work life balance.

828

And I think there's been a real

recent shift where I think there are

829

a lot of advisors being really much

more direct and talking about these

830

things out in the open and in public.

831

So part of it's really, I

think, learning from them.

832

There's a shred of it of, you

know, based on, my own experience

833

and colleagues around me.

834

I try not to extrapolate that too much.

835

Understanding our own

experiences, our own experience.

836

Uh,

837

Geri: Yeah.

838

Evan: can certainly resonate with,

you know, graduate school is long.

839

And it's, it's probably unlikely you're

going to feel great during all of it.

840

And it's unlikely that you're

feeling productive during all of it.

841

Geri: If only.

842

Evan: I know

843

Geri: I know that would

be an unrealistic world.

844

But have there been any

particular challenges?

845

Evan: I'd say, I mean, it's it's

an entirely different context.

846

I mean, this, the scale is for

every 1 student at Bucknell.

847

There are 10 students in Boulder

848

Geri: Mm hmm.

849

Evan: Um, so you're talking about

you know, an institution of, you

850

know, 3000 to more than 30, 000.

851

And that brings opportunities that's

why an information science department

852

can exist because of that scale.

853

Um, it'd probably be hard to create

something that a tiny institution

854

because you already have computer

science and things like that.

855

And so it gives space for that.

856

But it's also, I mean, there is some

real benefit to tiny institutions and

857

that you necessarily bump into and

our own community with people from

858

all kinds of disciplines because yeah.

859

Those are just the people around you.

860

I think, I mean, there's certainly

departmental silos in liberal

861

arts institutions, but almost

more from a structural sense.

862

And I'd say almost a little less.

863

So from a community sense,

you're in meetings with folks

864

from all over the place.

865

You're probably on committees from folks

from the humanities and social sciences.

866

And, and so I think these are things I

have to be a lot more deliberate about,

867

I see, it's much easier just to kind of

stay in my building and yeah, it's much

868

easier to kind of create your own little,

uh, little palace or, you know, our work

869

environment and not have those sorts of

integrations, but those were incredibly

870

valuable to me at Bucknell to see my, see

our student experiences through different

871

eyes, to see it the institutional

experience or different eyes.

872

Um, so I think that's one piece

that will take quite a bit longer

873

to, I think, foster and develop.

874

And I have to be a little bit

more, I think, direct about that.

875

Geri: Because in your role as the

director of education or whatever

876

the exact title is, how do you

understand the student experience to

877

help shape that as well becomes a scale

problem, a scale challenge as well.

878

Evan: Yeah, and somewhat ironically,

where our information science

879

department is still small enough that

it's actually size wise, pretty not

880

too much different from what I was

used to at Bucknell CS department.

881

So departmental size actually is roughly

similar in terms of students and faculty.

882

Um, but you know, another

really interesting change on

883

the student experience side.

884

Even though it saves me loads of

time and is a relief sometimes,

885

is, big institutions have

professional academic advisors.

886

Uh, where I was the academic

advisor for my students at Bucknell.

887

Um, and yeah, that took a lot of

time, but you learn a lot about

888

student experience when you are

their academic advisor, their

889

experience for different classes.

890

I was telling a colleague, you know,

this is the first year I haven't had a

891

student cry in my office about calculus.

892

Um, um, but I feel like you know,

I think that that's another thing

893

you have to be more, I think.

894

You know, directly chased down a little

more, you might not get as organically,

895

you know, I had to sit down with a group

of undergraduates at the end of the

896

semester just to chat with them for a

while, you know, and before those were

897

things that just would have happened,

898

Geri: Yeah.

899

Just, yeah.

900

Evan: it's like, let's

put it on a calendar.

901

Geri: Yeah.

902

Well, it sounds like things

are going amazingly well.

903

And how are the working hours

relative, if you're taking on a

904

bigger responsibility as well and

setting up a new lab, because I

905

know that that was really important

sort of family time and community,

906

how are those aspects working out?

907

Evan: I think it's, I

think it's pretty similar.

908

Um, because you're teaching

less, they're less, uh, uh,

909

you know, immovable class time.

910

Things on your schedule.

911

One thing that I think was less common

at Bucknell, but more common at CU.

912

And I think among many similar

institutions is, you know, I'll work

913

for home from home one day a week.

914

And so that's actually relatively, you

know, I can kind of shift all my, you

915

know, get, you know, assign my meeting.

916

So it's not, it's not less meetings.

917

It's not less scheduled time, but there is

a little bit more, I think, a little bit

918

more flexibility in the terms of those.

919

Um, and certainly the start

starting up costs are always

920

high, no matter where you are.

921

Geri: Yeah.

922

Evan: you know, um, little,

little crazy at first, but.

923

Geri: Yeah.

924

Any regrets at all about any of the

choices that you've made along the

925

way as you look back and reflect?

926

Evan: I don't know and I don't

know if that's confirmation bias.

927

Maybe I just want to be the

hero of my own story, but

928

Geri: Well, I know, and I'm, as I'm

asking that question, I'm thinking

929

that's a really dumb question

930

because you only can ever make the best

choice at the time and when you made

931

choices they were so well considered

and I think you're a like a role model

932

in making those choices work for you

as well, shaped by a clarity about

933

your values and what's important.

934

Um,

935

Evan: you know, I hope that that's

the piece that comes through um,

936

because certainly, you know, I, I

certainly still get a fair number of

937

emails and have conversations with

people who are entering the job market

938

and just want to chat about these

939

Geri: Um,

940

Evan: and I don't know.

941

I don't know how replicable

anyone's path is, right?

942

Um, I feel like I always have to say

this all the time, because they'll

943

ask me questions like, well, how

easy or hard is it to shift from

944

liberal arts schools to research?

945

And it's like, I don't, I'm not

completely sure, you know, I mean,

946

I can tell you about my personal

experience and the way it worked out

947

and why it worked out the way it did.

948

Um, but, uh, yeah.

949

Geri: the fact that you can play out

your position in either institution in

950

very different ways because you could be

coming to a research intensive institution

951

and just be really focused on the

research, but you're still finding ways to

952

be really focused on education and impact

and all those things you care about.

953

So you're still bringing

those things with you.

954

The, the shift of institutions has,

sounds like it's just opened up the

955

opportunities or changed the opportunities

for the ways that you might express

956

them or the different types of impact

you can have that fit with where, how

957

your thinking was evolving as well.

958

Evan: I mean, like I said at the

beginning, you know, I worry that

959

sometimes my shift is interpreted as my

values changing or some criticism of some

960

sort of boxer bin, but it's less than I

think my, my values were relatively were

961

relatively consistent, maybe reweighted

a little bit, you know, um, and like

962

I said, when I was looking at offers at

an amazing liberal arts college, this,

963

this teaching track position, which I

thought had this incredible educational

964

mission was also incredibly compelling.

965

Had some wonderful, um,

research opportunities as well.

966

And, and, and this university, I mean, I

think they're so dramatically different.

967

I mean, orders of magnitude

of difference in students.

968

The way the positions are conceptualized,

but, you know, if I think about

969

almost like mapping things in space,

based on my values and not on those

970

structural pieces, they were the

cluster that were right, very similar.

971

And it was a, it was a

really difficult decision.

972

Um, uh, and that, that's

the piece that, you know.

973

I wish was easier for people to navigate.

974

Um, because even I think hearing

all that it's, it's still

975

not easy to navigate at all.

976

I mean, we still have this circumstance

where even if let's talk about even like

977

research institutions versus liberal

arts colleges, they're hiring deadline.

978

They're often offset by four months now.

979

Um, it's actually not possible to

think, look at them simultaneously

980

for most graduating PhD students.

981

Geri: Yeah.

982

Evan: And like I said before, you know,

I entered job market in a field that

983

was under high demand at the time.

984

And so, Even having the luxury

of comparing so directly

985

Geri: Mm.

986

Evan: uh, you know, that,

that is a privilege by itself.

987

And I'm, I'm sure there are people who

hear us professors talk about our job

988

experiences and just roll their eyes

into the back of their heads, right?

989

Because of how just brutal and competitive

the job market is and how the luxury

990

of choosing between places isn't even

a conversation most people get to have.

991

Geri: Mm.

992

But I think what you've talked about

raises attention to the importance

993

of not focusing on, I don't know,

like the title or the institution or

994

the structural aspects, but wherever

it is, what does it enable me to do?

995

How does it connect to

what's important to me?

996

Evan: Yeah, absolutely.

997

And I also just believe that you'll

be most effective and probably long

998

term in those positions anyways.

999

You know, I actually don't think

you could have inverted my career.

00:59:17,895 --> 00:59:20,625

Like, I don't think that I could

have started at CU Boulder.

00:59:21,185 --> 00:59:27,535

And, um, I think Bucknell was the

right place for me at that time.

00:59:28,105 --> 00:59:28,935

Um.

00:59:29,570 --> 00:59:34,050

And certainly, you know, I think part of

the reason that I was able to have choice

00:59:34,060 --> 00:59:39,080

the second time around was because people

knew me for investing in undergraduate

00:59:39,090 --> 00:59:40,960

experiences in undergraduate education.

00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:44,860

People knew me for responsible computing

and, and, and those initiatives.

00:59:44,900 --> 00:59:49,700

Um, And I would I have gone down

those pathways at another institution?

00:59:49,700 --> 00:59:50,750

Maybe probably not.

00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:54,220

But you know, those those open

the doors for opportunities

00:59:54,230 --> 00:59:55,560

to other places later on.

00:59:56,070 --> 00:59:58,210

Um, because those were important to me.

00:59:58,210 --> 01:00:01,730

And so in some ways, it was

like I was, uh, you know, my

01:00:01,730 --> 01:00:03,650

work was publicizing my values.

01:00:04,055 --> 01:00:05,365

Geri: yes, yes,

01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:09,450

Evan: Um, so I knew that places

interested in those things would

01:00:09,450 --> 01:00:12,300

probably be interested in, you know,

I would be interested in them as well.

01:00:12,345 --> 01:00:15,235

Geri: mm, mm, lovely.

01:00:16,115 --> 01:00:19,925

Are there any things that we

haven't talked about that you'd

01:00:19,935 --> 01:00:23,015

want to mention before we wrap?

01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:27,620

Evan: Uh, nothing off the top of my head.

01:00:27,630 --> 01:00:29,590

I feel like I've blathered on quite a bit.

01:00:31,415 --> 01:00:38,835

Geri: So, I said before we started

recording, I point my PhD students and

01:00:38,835 --> 01:00:44,135

early career people to your previous

podcast episode all the time because

01:00:44,145 --> 01:00:49,875

of just how you talked about that,

the whole decision making process.

01:00:51,125 --> 01:00:55,005

you know, like the way you reason

through what was important to you and

01:00:55,005 --> 01:00:56,735

how you weighed them up and so on.

01:00:56,735 --> 01:00:59,115

And, the way that you've

been able to make it work.

01:00:59,115 --> 01:01:04,685

And I think, uh, this will be joining

the, the list of recommendations because,

01:01:05,445 --> 01:01:13,175

yeah, I love just how strategically

reflective you are while still being

01:01:13,175 --> 01:01:15,995

true to you in all of this process.

01:01:16,885 --> 01:01:18,985

And, and the impact that you're having.

01:01:20,260 --> 01:01:27,250

Evan: yeah, I do think that there is, and

maybe this is partially because of, you

01:01:27,250 --> 01:01:32,280

know, when I came out with my PhD, we were

at the peak moment in which CS PhDs are

01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:34,160

getting gobbled up on the industry market.

01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:38,760

And so I think for me, even making

the choice of academia was saying,

01:01:39,170 --> 01:01:42,870

I really need to have a mission and

a set of values behind this position

01:01:43,230 --> 01:01:45,360

because I'm giving up a lot of material

01:01:45,545 --> 01:01:46,405

Geri: Mm.

01:01:46,695 --> 01:01:47,825

Oh, yes.

01:01:48,270 --> 01:01:51,360

Evan: And so I think that that sort

of helped that reweighting towards it.

01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:53,190

This, this needs to be important to me.

01:01:54,185 --> 01:01:54,485

Geri: Yeah.

01:01:56,385 --> 01:02:00,875

Well, Evan, thank you very much for

talking with me again and all the very

01:02:00,875 --> 01:02:03,835

best in this new career path, next

01:02:03,860 --> 01:02:05,750

Evan: Yeah, this was,

yeah, this was great.

01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:10,990

It was really interesting reflecting back

on seven years ago when we talked before.

01:02:10,990 --> 01:02:14,920

Um, um, yeah, this was really

lovely and thank you for having me.

01:02:15,590 --> 01:02:16,550

Geri: It's my pleasure.

01:02:16,550 --> 01:02:17,230

Thank you.

01:02:20,590 --> 01:02:24,100

You can find the summary notes,

a transcript, and related

01:02:24,100 --> 01:02:27,240

links for this podcast on www.

01:02:27,300 --> 01:02:27,480

changingacademiclife.

01:02:29,180 --> 01:02:29,570

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01:02:30,230 --> 01:02:34,230

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01:02:34,530 --> 01:02:36,270

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01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:39,390

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01:02:39,390 --> 01:02:41,370

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01:02:41,810 --> 01:02:45,890

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01:02:46,380 --> 01:02:50,460

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01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:52,720

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01:02:52,780 --> 01:02:54,140

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