Mel Today have with me the beautiful Cassie Hamer. Hi Casey.

Cassie Hi Mel. I love your podcast. You have such great warmth and enthusiasm and it really is lovely to be speaking with you.

Mel I'm really excited everyone to introduce a new writer and the book, 'After The Party. Now I had no idea what to expect but when I read it, it was thirty two young children at a birthday party.

Cassie I have three young children myself and they're 6, 8 and 10 and I have hosted quite a few parties here at my home on their behalf. I always find that kids parties are constantly teetering on the edge of total disaster because you have so many children they're so hyped up there are games of competition. There's far too much sugar causing total chaos. So I thought what what it a scenario into which to put an inciting incident. So as you say the party is a complete disaster the laser WAKES UP LIKE NOTHING'S READY TO GO. SHE'S ABOUT TO HAVE 33 children land on her doorstep which they do. And it continues to be disastrous. And she makes it through though she struggles through until the end and reads It's a relief that there will be kids and picked up and taken home. Well, all except one little girl who she discovers hiding in a dog kennel. And at first Lisa thinks well the mom's just running late. No problem. This is true and she gets a note and the note is from Ellie's mother and the note explains that in fact she's not coming back to pick up the child at all and that she's asking Lisa to take care of this child and then laces put into these massive conundrum what do I do. And the story takes off from there.

Mel It's really interesting because when I set out to to research for this interview Cassie I wasn't quite sure where this novel was going to fit. And one of the reviews that I read is this reviewer thought it was going to be a romance and I thought oh we must have another book here but it's not it's far. I think it's far deeper than that. It's got a lot of elements in it. We can all relate to it. We all cringe away from from some of the things that happen in it. But basically this book has a lot more depth and resonance than then just a quick story doesn't it?

Cassie I think I think it did. Well thank you very much for saying that but. I love books that have lice and chives and I think. Women in particular we are complex creatures. We are interested in a range of different things. One minute we can be talking about the dash in the next minute we're talking about the state of the planet and politics and we are not we cannot be pigeonholed. And my reading interests are pretty eclectic. They like to read across a range of genres. But I have to say my absolute literary. Goddess is Leon Moriarty. And reading her books was just a complete light bulb moment for me. And I don't claim in any way to have her ability because I think she is quite remarkable. But I did read from her books the concept that you can be quite serious subjects. I do it with a lightness of touch and that's absolutely what I set out to do with the party. I had written two scripts previous which were very serious and very sad. And I think that was a hangover from the fact that I had study a master's in creative writing at university and I think I was writing what I thought I should write you know art and writing degrees at universities have a very low tree end. And that's really just not me. I'm just not that really stupid serious substantial person. I like to love. I like to have fun. I also like to joke about politics and serious issues. And I think that's what I was trying to achieve with the body.

Mel This book does have some big questions in it. Who is in charge of the upbringing of a child.

Cassie Yeah. And when we talk collective responsibility to children I guess.

Mel As a teacher we I come across this issue all the time. How far do we go and where are the boundaries.

Cassie Yes. With Lisa and her sister Jamie. What inspired me to do that is that when I became a mom it was probably a surprise to me as to how maternal I felt not only to my own children but to everyone else's children. Now I'm not a particularly wonderful mother by any stretch of the imagination besides my three daughters. But I do have a great affinity for children. And if I see a baby in a shopping center on that person you will run up and try to wangle my way into holding the baby within five seconds of the mother do have a great sense that all children deserve love and deserve a safe environment that as we know that is just not the reality. And. I'm very interested in the foster care system and the out-of-home care system. I think there are many wonderful people in it. But I also think there are some children that fall through the cracks. And I just can't think of a worse do to a child take them out of their own home in a vulnerable situation and then to put them in an even more vulnerable situation does seems unconscionable to me. And that's something I wanted to injecting.

Mel You've done your Masters in Creative Writing and the idea that literature has to be serious. And I wouldn't mind unpacking that a little bit because once you've done I guess are higher studies course like that. And once you've started to do your own writing and we're going to talk a little bit about some of the literary competitions and things that you've entered with your short stories. What does it take to to find your own voice through all that?

Cassie It takes a lot of writing basically and it takes the personal journey of arriving at the point where you actually don't care about what other people think of your rating choices or your writing choices. Nothing makes me more cross now than genre snobbery and I see it everywhere you look at the literary pages about major newspapers. They're full of wonderful books of course they're wonderful books. They're of a very particular genre. And that's usually literary fiction or it's crime fiction. Now why is crime fiction which is very commercially popular considered more worthy of being in literary pages and women's commercial fiction which you almost never see in these review pages. It makes me very cross. I have to say and I think it's a throwback to patriarchy and sexism in that crime and literary novels have traditionally been mainly reached by and for men. But I think this is huge appetite for women's stories written by women and believing in to domestic experiences. And I think when really well written the mystic experience is a fascinating area to explore because as you said before you took this thing relatable and I think we often read because we want to learn more about ourselves. And I think fiction does allow us away to explore that and develop our feelings of empathy I suppose.

Mel I hear what you're saying because popular fiction has been debated for a very long time.

Cassie I think we all know that it does feel right.

Mel Sam just bought the Norton's Anthology of Literary Theory. I studied that when I was at Uni. Theory has just exploded in the last 20 years as we as we break off into all these different factions of literary theory and what makes a good story and what doesn't. And it's really interesting that the debate is still happening in our media because we've been very spoiled here right around the road. We had people like Rachel Jones and Natasha Alistair and always guys Alexander they're all fighting very hard for everyone's rights to write not only good stories but deep and meaningful stories as well.

Cassie Yeah I think so. You mentioned before was that before writing this book I had done a lot of short story writing and short stories saying in Australia has a very literary focus. There aren't many kind of commercial short stories compilations so I think through that I did try to hone my ability to write in that way. And that experience now informs the way in which I write the longer form fiction. I must say that. It's lovely to be free of kind of the shackles of literary fiction and I think. I've finally found my voice and my natural voice and I know that because it's not such a struggle to sit down and write. Writing in a literary or literary style does not come naturally to me. Whereas writing a book like after the party was just the title. It was so enjoyable to sit down at the computer every day and and ash it out. And that was quite a different experience to the short stories which require so much plumbing of your emotional bits and stripping back and considering every word. And I do love a really well-written short story but I also like the freedom of the longer form allows you as a writer.

Mel And it's that whole thing of finding your voice I think and it's interesting because what we used to joke about in literary fiction and I'm pretty sure that the joke is still around is that you write the story and then you go back and you stick in the metaphors and similes as a customer later I don't know.

Cassie But I mean certainly with short stories The brilliance comes out in the editing. There's no doubt. I mean that's probably true of all fiction. I would have to say I had an interesting analogy the other day where a writer said that that the story itself is perfect so the story itself exists in your subconscious and it's already perfect and your job as a writer is dust to uncover it. And so your first draft is kind of word vomit where you just get it all out. It is your second job is chiseling away and actually sculpting and uncovering a beautiful piece of artwork that lies underneath. I just really like that analogy.

Mel Yes it's true isn't it it's finding the story. I hate editing every one of these oh that's why I love Dragon Dictation. I can just tell my stories and then move on to the next one. I think we should all get someone else to edit our stories for us.

Cassie Oh I agree. It is no doubt that After the Party would not ever have seen the light of day unless I got the manuscript assessment on it. After I'd done the first draft and if I could make any recommendation to an emerging writer it would be to get someone. Who is not a friend or family member to read your work and. You have to get totally unbiased and critical feedback and you really need to consider that feedback carefully. Whether you accept that or redacted is your decision in the end. You need to have valid reasons as to why you did it. The feedback of a qualified professional.

Mel And manuscript assessment they look you do have to get a qualified professional to to take that on board and we're talking about structural made it's right at the very beginning of editing process because sometimes you too close to your story and you don't see it. Now you said you've written three novels. And did you go. Did you get the first to assist as well.

Cassie Yeah I did. One of the reasons was that I at the time that I write them particularly have many contacts in the writing world and there really was no one who I could just ask to do it. So I did my research and found some amazing professional editors who both of them books wanted to give me a report. Which was extremely useful just detailing major issues with the book with after the party. I took it to an editor called Kim Swagel and she came back to me not only with an overall report but she'd actually annotated the entire manuscript which if you know anyone who knows anything about editing will understand that there is a huge amount of work. And it was an unexpected if a surprise but she was really direct as well and to write things in the margin like what is this story. Where is this story going. It doesn't belong in this story. So she was very clear about where the problems were. And after I gave myself a few minutes to just. Inhale and exhale and you know have a little mental breakdown of that. She's absolutely spot on and I would be a fool if I don't follow her recommendations. So yeah I'm so grateful to her doing that. I just think it was priceless really. I know these assessments are expensive and it is involved to be able to pay for one day if you can muster the funds to do it. Give it to yourself as a birthday present or a Christmas present. It's absolutely worthwhile.

Cassie We were over it. I put it out to be published but I hired a professional group to do that.

Cassie It's quite frightening how many pairs of eyes can look at a manuscript and you will still never see the same things. And yes it is pricey but editing is one of the areas. On which I just might think you can scheme. I think it's essential. I've not yet heard of a writer who can produce an immaculate first draft and just don't think that person exists unless it's Tim Winton or someone like that. But. I just think it's almost impossible to do.

Mel I would say do we want to meet them anyway. Do we want to hear about those perfect people aren't they. I'm going to suggest not. So you've actually done it a little bit backwards. Employing people. Now you've done it a little bit back to front. You've actually written your manuscript you've got the assessment. Then you started pitching it is that correct.

Cassie Yeah that's correct. So what happened was that I wrote the manuscript in 2016. I gave my self six months to do it because at the site at the time I was studying a teaching qualification and I had six months left on that degree but I was only going one subject so I did have quite a bit of time on my hands so I bashed out this in six months for him to give me the report rewrite quite a substantial portion of it and then started to query agents which was a completely soul destroying. Eight months of my life I would say I'll send it out plentiful agents and I was just looking at the numbers that I a third of them never responded to of them expressed some interest but ultimately didn't pick it up and the risk said nigh night basically no. So that was a really. Difficult period. But I mean I guess by that point I'd actually been through a fair bit of rejection and it is part of the writing life and I think you probably get better at dealing with it the more it happens to you. And so after all the agents had passed on. I wasn't particularly shocked or surprised by that but I still really liked manuscript and when I reread it I wouldn't completely cringe and look for runaway and solve in the bathroom.

Cassie So far it's actually not that bad. I'm still going to persist with this thing. So. I decided to leap on in the process of meeting the publishers and put it out into the beautifully named slush piles of Australia. And it was going towards the end of that process again which had been pretty much an epic failure. When I realized that Rachel Jones whose books I love and I'd read. The art of keeping secrets which I would classify as a women's general fiction novel and it was published by Harlequin and I traditionally knew Harlequin as a romance imprint and had assumed that I wouldn't be interested in my book because it's not a romance book. This is a love story but it's very much a subplot. I don't realize that Rachel was published by Harlequin. You know what. Maybe maybe they might be interested. So I set it all with very low expectations and heights and then a few weeks later I actually got an email from them and I just assumed it was going to be another rejection. So with a very heavy heart I opened it and it said oh your manuscript has been put in the queue to be read by an editor.

Cassie And I think my hopes went up from zero to one and then a few weeks on from that I got another email asking me to come in for a meeting with the senior publisher and the publishing assistant. And at that point I forwarded it to my husband and I said a few swear words and said this might actually be a real thing. And it all went from there. The meeting went really well I was quite shocked by how much they seemed like the manuscript to the point where I was thinking I would actually tell you about the same book because I just had so many bad things about it that I really believe that someone. Was finally going to champion it. But I think as I said in the acknowledgements finding a public shot is a lot like blind dating. You do have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince or in my case my princesses. But you know when you get rejected it's not or it's not often because of the quality of the work. It's just because it's not what they're looking for at that moment. So they've already got too much.

Cassie And while it's very hard not to take it personally. Rejection isn't always a reflection of the manuscript that you've submitted. Yeah and it's interesting isn't it because at any stage any time alone that compendium you could've given up. Oh easily. But the only person who would have lost down would be myself. I mean the rest of the world doesn't care about my writing and my manuscript. And I think the thing that kept me going was the thought of being. A really old woman. And thinking to myself. Why didn't I just keep trying. Why didn't I just have another guy. And I just didn't want to regret not having given it everything. And the other thing is that I just really like writing and I think even if after the party hadn't been published I still would have been writing anyway. Just because it is something that gives me great pleasure and satisfaction and I think. You have to start doing it for that reason because there's not a lot of money in it. So you have to genuinely love it because it takes up a lot of time.

Mel It takes up a lot of your your mental space as well as you as you worry this thing through. I'm going to ask everyone because I'm a complete sticky book. Talk us through the meeting with the publisher. I don't think I've ever asked anyone that question before.

Mel What's it like walking into a meeting. I know I know you're in Sydney shaking your boots getting off the bus at George Street and the publisher. I know Harlequin are really champion Australian waters. I have a lot of Hollywood movies on the podcast when you walk in and you meet someone you we...