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Welcome to the industrial talk podcast with Scott Mackenzie. Scott is a passionate industry professional dedicated to transferring cutting edge industry focused innovations and trends while highlighting the men and women who keep the world moving. So put on your hard hat, grab your work boots, and let's go.
Alright, once again, thank you very much for joining an ever expanding juggernaut of industrial entertainment here on industrial talk. It is a platform that celebrates industry professionals all around the world, and I'm pointing at you if you are out on video, because you're bold, you're brave, you dare greatly. you innovate, you collaborate, you solve problems, and it never stops, you're making the world a better place. And I truly believe that in my heart of hearts, now, in the hot seat, again, you know, I just geek out on anything industrial and I love where it's an exciting time to be an industry. And I'm going to continue to be the cheerleader behind all that. We have a wonderful conversation with a gentleman by the name of Ivar Jacobson. Now he's he's got mad street cred when it comes to programming. He's been around, in fact, in fact, use cases, right there came from Ivar, we're going to be talking about all the stuff that's taking place within his world on this industrial talk, let's get cracking. Yeah, it's exciting. You ever have those conversations, which I have all the time, quite frankly, let's step away on that you're you're you're talking to individuals that truly are passionate about thinking differently, solving problems. And solving those problems in a way that they they bring in everybody, they want to bring in more they want to bring in more insights and more companies and individuals that bring fresh perspective to some of the challenges and also solve those problems that we just for whatever reason take for granted, we become numb, right? We become numb to the pain that they create. I have our man I'm telling you, this is a great conversation, it is a paper and pencil chat, by the way, I've got in front of me an email with a bunch of links. So when you hear Ivar, you just know that there are ton of other additional information about what he and his team are providing. And I'm just, they're all there. So go out to industrial talk.com and be able to sort of grab yourself some more information about Ivar and all the things that are taking place within his world. And as well as teams world. All right, I'm going to be at a number of locations. And I'm going to start go out to industrial targeting or publishing. And I think the thinking behind all of that is one I'm going to be broadcasting from events throughout the year. And, and I'm trying to gear up a couple of things. One, I want to be able to do more on sites, on site conversations with the companies that are producing something manufacturing something using in real life, the digital transformation solutions and everything else and how to how to really be a better manufacturer, or a producer of whatever product or solving problems. So I'm gonna go out and I'm going to put out on on industrial talk the places that I will be and if you have any interest in me buzzing on by while I'm at that conference, or whatever it might be, to have a face to face conversation, I highly recommend that you make it happen. I am I'm all for it. The other area that I'd like to be able to start expanding upon, and that is being able to inspire, through your help through your vision. The younger professionals, the younger leaders in the world of manufacturing in the world of digital transformation in the world of whatever is happening out there, robotics, digital twin, you name it, programming, all of the stuff that that we as a society need and we need to be able to inspire the future the future leaders to be able to be a part of this incredible time I wish I was younger and and being exposed to all of this wonderful and a great solution. So those are the two things on site going to be broadcasting from locations are going to be in Orlando, you're going to be in Virginia, as well as being able to have an operator tunity to speak to the youth and future leaders and inspire them because you guys, everybody, industry is inspiring. And we just got it. We've just got to do it. All right under the conversation now, again, paper and pencil you can always come back. I'd love for you to subscribe, subscribe to industrial talk, we're out on all the podcast platforms. Of course I got a YouTube and all that stuff subscribe so you don't miss miss out because what you what you don't want you know, this might be you might have to sort of take a break and go and do whatever isn't come on back. Don't miss out on this conversation. Don't miss out and listen to it and and be able to reach out to Iris Ivar and be able to connect with him. So here we go. Let's get going with this conversation with Ivar Jacobson. Ivar, welcome to industrial talk. Thank you very much. All the way from Switzerland.
Switzerland. Yes. Top of yours. Not quite on the very top but very close to the top.
Listeners I we've had a number of conversations over zoom. And every time I have a conversation with Ivar It's Always Sunny and I know it's nice and brisk outside and there's there's snow. Is there snow out there, right.
Oh, sure. Oh, sure.
Fell Yeah, but it's every time you get It's Always Sunny. You got a great
today, too. Yes. Yeah, it is. Oh, jell o high up, you know, so it's so hard for the clouds to get up here.
Is that true? That's not true, given?
Sometimes we have dogs.
Yeah, because you have snow? Yeah. All right, for the listeners out there either. Just just I want to make sure you listeners understand that. Ivar is a legend. Let's just sort of lay it out there. If you use the term use case, you're you're listening to the individual that came up with that term. So just FYI, that's, that's why he is a pioneer a legend. So with that said, with that laying that foundation, Ivar just give us a little background outside of all of the other stuff, give us a background on who Ivar is, and then we're gonna go into an interesting conversation.
Around, this was an interesting start, I, I love what I'm doing. And I should probably have finished the working retired, at least I could have retired 20 years ago. But it's never in my mind. And that was actually when I guess 20 years ago, I was rewarded. Something called Gustavo Dalen price. From Chalmers Institute of Technology. It's quite a prestigious university, even in the whole world. And the reward was for use cases. And they tell you the truth. I was totally flabbergasted. Because the idea of use cases is where before you develop a product, find out how you're going to use it. That's as simple as that. And how that could lead to something called the little Nobel Prize in Sweden is yeah.
See, you know what's interesting, and it's so funny. I remember many years ago, not, you know, outside of the fact. Yeah, what are you going to do if you retire? Just just I've always had that conversation as well as like, Well, what do I do? play golf or what what I drive around and go to Walmart, what what do I do you know, and it's like, now I can't retire. And no Can you can't either, because you're, you're obligated to everybody here to continue to be brilliant. How's that? But anyway, when I was overwhelming, yeah. Well, when I was number of years ago, and somebody popped in the term use case, I didn't understand it. And then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, oh, that's it. Of course, it makes sense. When
you use cases when I introduced it, I did it in a technical context. And but it was of course, the mindset was, this is the most natural thing in the world. And the technical implementation of It was quite advanced that I wrote the book about it. So
of course you did. Why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you write a book about it? Right. But what interests me and as I looked at the information that you provided, which was quite extensive, and I'm humbled by it, is that there's a couple of competing type of themes that I sort of gleaned from it one, you, you started your career in the world of engineering, right? And there's a there's a discipline there, there's a desire to, you know, follow things and get it done and map and, you know, there's a discipline there. And then you quickly realize that there's this sort of, you know, program programmers and all of this other stuff, which tends to be sort of high risk, I don't know, just sort of this wild west type of mindset. And yet, so there's this competing, can you sort of take us through your thinking on this sort of engineering versus this approach? When it comes to programmers and what companies are dealing with? That'd be great.
Yeah, as a fresh engineer, I still had a severe mind to work, continue research, I've been offered to continue. Get the doctor's degree at my institution. But I thought now I've started my whole life, I should at least know what an engineer that's. So I selected the most boring work I could imagine. But engineering and successful, I went to Ericsson, they built a relay based switching system. And there was absolutely no computing. And I actually didn't know much about computing. But I learned engineering. And I started to love it. I felt never back to research. And, and but after a couple of years, I understood him. Computers are coming. And I was offered to, to move to the computing department. Here, they immediately assigned me to be project manager for the most mission critical product we had. And I knew nothing about programming, and nothing about the compute. A bet had not been on my resume. Yet, I probably was a good project manager, at least thwey liked me. But when people liked me, and I was pushing and leading the team to good results, it took me a while, of course, I was 28 years old. So when they offer it, I said, Okay, of course. And then, but it took me three months to really get under the scheme because we have a no books, nothing of real value at that time. So I have to read code, and understand machine code. After these three months, I felt what the way we are building a product, we never ever become a product that we can market around the world. It was the traditional way of dealing at read time. Namely basically separated a we software from the program from the code, and you build two different hierarchies. We pray were completely separate. But interrelated interactions was so immense between the program because it could read anywhere and Shange was ahead. So, but then you components from hardware. So I translated my thinking, from hardware to how could we use that idea in software? Yeah, we could identify things we call them actually blocks. They ha've clear interfaces. And whatever was in the block could be data. Could be code could be actually hardware to was hidden from outside. The only way to access it was by sending messages between things. And it took eight months. And as a project manager in daytime, I ran the project as people wanted to get paid to be run. But I talked to my boss and said we never ever become a product. And when the project manager says, we never ever become a product but does he do it He went to his boss. And his boss said, I have no clue. You have to talk to my boss because he has done in been in us and he is built to compute. So we talked to that person I've never seen and you know, he'll never see. He said, Okay, do as you want. But you know, then a had to convenience for people. And no one wanted to do it. They felt this is yes.
Oh, hold on, when you said no one wants to do it, like a programmers didn't want to do it. You're you're trying to create, you got these silos, right these, like, here's this, you know, engineering side, here's this program side, you're trying to bring some sort of the team together to create a deliverable, right? A product? That's never really been there before, right?
No. So it was, it was a very difficult situation. My boss, he collected all the managers, and we were 13 managers. And he presented the approach. And he asked how, how many of you like this? What do you think about he said, the most positive guy said, I don't know. Very bad for Ericsson. But he implemented it. And we did it in the first two components ever, in that company, myself. When you
say, what do you sit? When you say components? What do you mean by that?
That is, you can't say it, basically, it's a piece of software, including code, right? Is both code and nowadays, data is in the code. But at that time, it was totally separate, we made a record, we use the assembler. So you can imagine there was no support whatsoever, for interaction. And for every practice and point to introduce the macro instruction. So identify macros for, to offer to other components.
So So let's fast forward a little bit. So you, you've experienced, you've been in the trenches, you're trying to figure out how to begin to bring these two very important components together to bake to deliver a, a product that makes sense in light of like, Hey, we got to do it. But you fast forward, and I'm looking at some of the data here. And you still some large companies still have, like you said here, about 10,000 programmers, and they still sort of have no discipline, and they just keep on programming. And they just keep on how do you how do you begin to grab that tiger by the tail and be able to deliver something? I mean, I mean, the thing is saying, you're saying, hey, estimated 80% of the program work. It's just helps us understand where we are today. And where how do we how do we improve this year the problem, but how do we improve it?
I mean, the world has basically gone in cycles. And there have been periods when we believe a software development is an engineering discipline. And there are periods when we think it's a craft. And it 20 years ago, or even more people particularly when agile came in, and let me say it loud and clearly ag agile was the Savior for software engineering. But it became a too much of a craft. And we are software development is primarily done by craftspeople and not by engineers. But it's not a simple thing, because there is also quite some engineering in how we work today. But it's far too late. So we and because it complicates even more, because basically in every role, not quite every but many roads. We are have both halves to work as a crafts person. And as an engineer, it would be easier if I was some some roads that are totally just crafts and others just engineering, but it's more a blended situation. So we need to find solutions that are help us to basically reduce the need for for craft and increase the ability to engineer things. Engineering means a faster, better high, of course, higher quality. And the there are estimates, but 80% of the work we do when we deal with software is no brain work. Meaning it's people follow patterns that they have learned. And just do what they know how to do. They don't have to think much in any way not create, may think, of course, but not create, imagine we can get these 80% to be me more engineering like work. But within in that would have enormous impact on the quality on the speed on the happiness not released to happiness. So people who who do a good job
to expand upon that, are we are you saying or advocating that there still is a necessity for craftspeople, whatever that definition is that sort of that thinker that sort of free, who we're gonna adjust that craft individual to focus on that energy that exists in there on the 20%. And then eventually, there has to be a way of taking that 20% And then begin to shift some of the results into that 80%, which then becomes just more engineering. You no more? Is that what you're saying?
Yes. It's very, very close. I think. It's, I think I mean, the same thing. Yes.
Yeah. Because, and I completely get it today, I've heard that there's there's a lot of conversation that is wrapped around, AI wrapped around what's taking place in the world of innovation. And in that world, where much of the conversation around it is that I want to remove the mundane. I want to let something happen over here. And then leave sort of that that specialized area over here that 20% Whatever do you find? In the world of engineering? Do you think that there's, there's a place? I mean, I hate to say the mundane because it's important stuff, right?
whatever you want to call it, from nothing to something huge. Yeah, it exploded. Yeah. And this was totally anti Agile to have tools to help people think. So I shut down the company and bought it into my current company. So he has been there waiting waiting for the time compiler come back. And no code will be we developed our own own rule engine. It was based on object oriented expert systems. It's called intelligent agents. And it was so it was very different from the old fashioned huge expert systems, but it came at the wrong time. And now there is so much more technique a underlying technique, we don't need to develop our own rule engine, we don't need to develop a rule language, for instance, we don't need to do that all that comes with the modern techniques in machine learning and so on. But we have in modern agile in modern AI, and then so of course, but it's important to understand the dreams now, AI has always been overhyped. So bad dreams. In one metrical way, we will use AI to develop complete products may be for simple products. I don't know if it also simple but but I like exactly what we're CEO of Microsoft, I cannot remember the name, but he Do you know his name.
I know I but I know who it is, I see his face.
Oh, we make too. So, he he has said that we will use shut GPT techniques are similar techniques in all our products at Microsoft. So he means that the products be augmented with a GPT like techniques to give better experience from uses he uses. And he doesn't say we have a theme. These products are not needed anymore. Because GPT technique will fix it all to us.
See, that's, that's, that's an exciting future. It's it's it's it's unique. I mean, this was exciting, because I hear what you're saying. I've been taking notes, we've been talking about code, we've got 10,000 programmers, we've got a lot of sort of moving parts around here. And and when we start talking about codes, you've popped up a number of methodologies. And let's say I'm an organization, right. And I've just got somebody doing this, somebody's doing that, and it's all over the place. You have a solution or a an approach to be able to sort of bring some discipline into that sort of Wild West component and, and correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm talking about essence, is that is that? Can you explain to the listeners a little bit about, you know, what that means and where you're going with that? Because I think it's intriguing.
Yeah, let me start by saying a word triggered with development of essence, because that is also talking about our values we are trying to sheep. So basically, the world is full of ideas. A full of practices, it's full of patterns. It's we talked about entail. The most important thing to to, we want people to learn is the mindset, agile principles. And we also want them once via or or work or agile, to be able to apply practices techniques that are useful for them and they are not the same for for every team, not even for every team in the same company. Every Team has something should have a lack. So your select their own way of working within some conflicts. And now what do we have, we have frameworks to offer a or vague or we also have single a great practices like scrum Kanban user stories, maybe I can put in use cases where and then a many other small small pieces of a puzzle. But when we have fret frameworks, which are defined with what content we have, and the content is selected by someone who has probably done some good work, but when he has the feeling complete, we've worked from others. And these frameworks definitely play a role before we got our act together, because we help with the least troubled organization to get some some organ some structure. So, that there are many of them, and we have different terminology different vocabulary very, we talk about promotive and they structure the whole thing very differently, they look very differently. They are like isolated islands with no breaches between them. And from this word of these different frameworks, people have to choose, but they cannot choose freely, I like this thing in safe, but I prefer this thing in wherever less or I like. So we are not these things called and practices. They are in method prisons, they are sitting in a prison, in the same prison or in the dead place. Right, right. Right. And not take them easily. And say this is my way of working, this is our way work. So you know, I was once one of these gurus, that it was rational unified process. And I, it took me awhile to couple of years to get into this agile mindset. It was actually Dave Thomas, who taught me they've taught us OTA, they've taught us not pragmatics, they've told us, I have seen the latter guys work too. So he's great. But anyway, it took it took didn't take long time, once I had a chance to sit down and talk to him two hours, and he turned me on. And so, we have all these things, and then I understood my future mission is not to create yet another rap or similar or complete frameworks, where people work which has cell as if it was here, you can find anything, you can take it and you can scale down. No scaling down doesn't work. Because it What should I take away? Yeah. So instead, we start to think there must be a common ground between all of these frameworks. And and so we thought we developed one It took six people working for about half a year. And we think we found one we tried it against the 50 different methods. And when we discovered tried it and we discover no we have to do better one, we interesting it's shrank it became smaller this common ground, we call it the kernel. And we also provided it with a little vase simple language. But there was some great innovations that language which are not country into but needed to be able to build. Then the whole idea is that these Colonel will work as a base to describe whatever thing you want to describe. So you can't escape. For instance, we have done it will scan and you have Sutherland says essence is the key to success. this thing we call essence by way and he says essence is the key to success. We two weeks ago we announced we have done it with David Anderson. Come on. And we have done it to Spotify. We have done it with many architected architecture practices, a think, coming from SEI. And other places. And we are now working with they were working with a I cannot mention until we have signed it, but we have nine other methodologist is centralizing their work.
Maybe I need to simplify this a little bit. I'm a I'm a company and I say, Hey, here's this, there's, here's this framework, this, this kernel, this, this essence that I'm really intrigued with, take us through, how would I engage with you? The product, the solution? What, what is it? And then what is the objective? For me? On the other hand, let's say yep, I'm all thumbs up with essence. Yes, I'm having the right conversations. Yes, I have my team wrapped around this, what am I what what am I hoping to achieve?
I'm hoping to achieve a way to have all the competence I have in the company, and outside accessible to any team in the company. So I mean, if you take a company like Ericsson, once upon a time, they had 25 different methods. And they could then at that time, send one guy from one method to work with another. Another thing. I mean, this is crazy. So instead having this an ecosystem where you can go and select the practices and compose them into a working method. And you any changes that happened in it, we scraped in this ecosystem will be accessible to you next day. And the people who would build this ecosystem are not your fellows, many of them or David Anderson, you have some of the brilliant guys in the world. I have not come pick on this yet. But I mentioned people like that, yeah. And imagine it's not the only event. Because even if your friend can invented scan, there are many variations from scan. They can also be very in this framework, but they should be motivated in one way or the other. And then you need of course, and as you system to select among all this, because it's too overwhelming, at some point, to see what
you're giving me as you're giving me some structure, at least you're giving me something that is accessible me as a company, I'm going okay, I got it. But not only that, you're given me the best minds, to continue to help me succeed in my efforts to develop what I need to develop. And it's right here, I don't have to scramble, you know, just there's that, that chaos that exists out there, you're able to give me in this essence, the real nuggets of success for my program in my efforts with the latest thinking, right, is that am I looking at that right?
Exactly. And you know, I was very criticized originally inside my own company, because why do you give this away? We have spent this number millions on it. And why do you give it away? If I give it away, I gave it away to two community called SEMAT. And we they started all over. The community wanted to create kernel for software engineering. And they they didn't in any way enforce for us but ever we had done but they liked it. And we have something much had some much something much better. With each result we could then go to OMG and get the hundreds of people to review it and approve it. That was probably if I was anything smart that in the situation this was small to give it away. And after having spent so much money on developing it and we At that time, we had no idea how we could ever make any money on this. But we felt this is needed, we cannot have it this
shift in there's that that whole argument about open source and people contributing and being able to create the collective knowledge and put it on. I mean, there's there's a, there's a power behind that. And I, I can definitely appreciate your quite your company's generosity and pulling this together because it it's truly needed. All right, one last question before we wrap it up there. IvorIvar. Where do you see this going? It's still, you know, you've got you got another 30 years of your profession?
Yeah, I think that's the least
see, what do you what do you see it going, where do you see the sort of,
we have let me say that we are working on many different directions, we are a first of all, we want all the people who have good ideas, to feeler plays, where we can put these good ideas and be sure be rewarded. That way, we don't centralize anything without a having the the originator to a basically own result. And the if there is any money made ever when we share with them, so and we will at least get a lot of recognition from being part of his framework. It's not like other methodologists that have to do it. I'm not criticizing my my colleague friends for for having to do what we do namely they have to take it and modify for instance, if you take a scam into safe they have to modify it because scum as it is designed originally doesn't really fit into safe. So that is natural. So a balloon what we are doing a much more fundamental but so we have to work to get many people to love it. The other thing we want to do is the academics absolutely need to embrace it. So we have a forum Eessence Education Forum, we have 60 plus professors that are working on new education programs based on essence, and base a lot of activity go round the world in the academic world on adopting a essence as instead of teaching whatever we do in software engineering, usually some example method or something like teaching a common ground that students can bring with them the whole rest of our life. And of course, we target eventually target is the industry and then we have been working with really big companies to create their own way of working and many of them have you saved and then find after while safe was good for us, but now we need to have control over our own method that is repeat companies and of course, they have a good for us so we can grow our business and develop more things. And now we are working on something very small. Namely we are working on small packages where we where we for instance can have a scan team to become a better scan team. This is the core ideas of of essence of scam and essence is hidden from them they don't really see it it's like a motor in the car. You know you don't need to drive a car to know them word of a motor functions, you know what you need to go to get it to work and so on. That's our metaphor. So we will soon in beta have scammed a package for scam teams. And we are working on a after that to do many small products like that.
So I have a good idea And I want access to the good idea. How do I how do I begin this journey with you and your team? Or I want to be engaged? What what, what is the best way for me to make that happen?
45:16d the value we have more than:
Yeah, I, all I know, is I enjoyed this conversation, all I know is that if I was in the market, and I wanted to be successful at my profession, you would be the first place I'd go to make that happen. That would die. I mean, I mean, this is this is important, because you can I can sense the passion in your voice in what I see, and how you want to just make sure that people succeed. You're solving a problem out there. You were absolutely wonderful. I appreciate that. All right, listeners, I'm gonna, I'm gonna
just the last word, yeah, thank you to OMG who has made this a standard and who has DVD by hundreds of people and challenged and got it to the place where it is and is still managing its evolution. Now changes to be done. Originally essence was designed for software engineering, but now it we end it has been used for for System Engineering, and basically for any kind of engineering. But now it will work next to least have SS hopefully will include direct support for these things.
Those are new use cases, right? Yeah,
it is. And and I also want to say that the essence is not only for describing practices, it's really helps in describing the mindset. So shake the mindset of a developers, it's not only about these technical details, it's about how you think to really become an OB.
See? Yeah, I'm getting giddy. I love it. I love what you're talking about. This is an incredible solution, service product, whatever you want to call it, it is it's spectacular. And am I'm going to listen to this I'm going to hound him down to make sure that we have all of the the links that are necessary for you to connect with Ivar and, and his team and be a part of that, of course omg.org will be out there the whole thing. So fear not, you're gonna have every bit of information to be able to reach out to this gent and others so that you'd be successful. All right, listeners, we're gonna wrap it up on the other side. Stay tuned, we will be right back.
You're listening to the industrial talk Podcast Network.
How about that for a conversation that is definitely one afford the books Ivar Jacobson, go out to industrial talk, reach out, find his stat card out on LinkedIn connect with him, I'm just telling you, you need to if you're in the world of industry, if you're in the world of truly solving problems, you need to connect, and you need to collaborate with people like Ivar as well as all of the other links that I have out there with all this great content that has been produced and more information because we're all about educating you gotta educate, especially now, this world is fast, when it comes to technology, educate, and yet have to collaborate. And whether we like it or not, we've got to innovate. And to do that, we've got to definitely educate and collaborate to to achieve that. I always feel like I'm I don't have enough time in the day, right? I see the sense of, of urgency that happening in an industry and I just get all excited as well as tense, because I just think that there's so much that can be done. So, so many stories that can be amplified, so many solutions that that can solve, solve great problems, and we just need to get that message out there. We just got to do it. We got to inspire the future, and make that happen. So if you're interested in that go out to industrial talk.com Reach out. I would love to have a conversation with you and see how we could collaborate to get that message out. So that's industrial talk.com All right. As always be bold, be brave dare greatly hang out. Definitely, definitely hang out with Ivar and you're going to change your world. We're gonna have another great conversation. Oh, coming at you in stereo. So stay tuned, we will be right back.