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My LDS Mission Was Run Like a Business: Emotional Manipulation Tactics of LDS Missionaries, Part 2
Episode 33 • 8th April 2025 • The Midlife Revolution • Megan Conner
00:00:00 01:50:10

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In Part 2 of our explosive series, a former Mormon missionary blows the whistle on the business strategies employed by mission presidents to boost convert baptisms. This episode uncovers the corporate-style tactics used within the LDS Church, revealing how mission presidents prioritize numbers over genuine spiritual growth. Through insider accounts, expert analysis, and a deep dive into the intersection of religion and business, we expose the manipulative practices driving the church’s growth agenda.

  • Business Models in Missions: Learn how mission presidents use sales techniques, quotas, and performance metrics to pressure missionaries into achieving higher baptism numbers.

  • Former Missionary Testimony: Hear a firsthand account from a whistleblower who witnessed these strategies in action and grappled with the ethical dilemmas they faced.
  • The Cost of Conversion: Understand the psychological and emotional toll on both missionaries and converts when faith is reduced to a business transaction.

Why Listen?

  • Discover the hidden parallels between high-demand religion and corporate culture.
  • Recognize the signs of coercive control and manipulation in religious settings.
  • Equip yourself with knowledge to heal from or protect against exploitative practices.

Tags: LDS Church, Mormon Missionaries, Mission President Tactics, Convert Baptisms, Religious Business Strategies, Narcissism, Healing from Abuse, True Crime, Cult Tactics, Religious Manipulation, High-Demand Religion, Coercive Control, Spiritual Abuse, Cult Psychology, Mormon Whistleblower

Follow Jonathan on IG: @awakening_expansion  

Find more about Jonathan here!

Transcripts

WEBVTT

::

hello beautiful

::

humans welcome to the

::

midlife revolution i'm here

::

again with jonathan from

::

the house of deconstruction

::

and tell us about your new

::

channel as well

::

I would love to, it's good to see you.

::

Um, so I have two things kind of going, um,

::

we're starting the awakening expansion,

::

uh, YouTube channel.

::

Um,

::

there should be a post on that this week.

::

That's where Shelby and I,

::

who was my healer, inner child healing.

::

We were talking all things, healing,

::

spiritual guide, growth,

::

shedding all of our programming,

::

inner child healing.

::

really just getting to that

::

higher level of

::

consciousness and really

::

expanding from within and

::

understanding kind of how to do that.

::

And, you know,

::

kind of going through some

::

of the taboos of, you know,

::

all of this self-help improvement stuff.

::

Like the trick is not that

::

the trick is to just love

::

all of your parts.

::

And a good analogy I've

::

found from another healer was like,

::

think about it like piano keys, right?

::

Like,

::

All of your parts are piano keys,

::

and it's not like you get

::

rid of those keys.

::

You're just able to expand

::

to higher and lower octaves

::

and make beautiful harmony

::

with those keys.

::

You don't want to get rid of them.

::

You can kind of just

::

incorporate them

::

differently as you expand.

::

Which I think is really,

::

really powerful because for

::

the longest time I

::

struggled with hating

::

certain parts and wanting

::

to just get rid of them.

::

But the second I just loved

::

them and could see where

::

they're coming from,

::

that's when you get more

::

keys and you can go higher

::

and lower octaves and make

::

beautiful harmony.

::

I love that analogy.

::

Right?

::

Yeah.

::

It's really good.

::

She's a healer.

::

Her name is Duh.

::

The Yashuana, Y-E-S-H-U-A-N-A.

::

And she is fabulous.

::

She is a genius.

::

Everything that comes out of your mouth.

::

I'm like, you are an ascended alien being.

::

You have all the answers.

::

Everything she says just resonates.

::

And, um,

::

But I'm also doing starting

::

an Instagram page.

::

It's called the underscore

::

awakened past tense

::

underscore narcissist.

::

And that's where I kind of

::

talk about being, you know,

::

a healing narcissist and

::

So that's going to be on Instagram.

::

We got more things,

::

maybe another YouTube channel,

::

but we're just kind of

::

getting this all rolling and it's so fun.

::

And I just think we all have

::

so much good information.

::

And now with the way things go,

::

we can all have a little

::

business and we can all

::

tell our stories and

::

someone will be affected by that,

::

you know?

::

Yeah, I love it.

::

Yeah, I love it.

::

I think more people telling their stories,

::

talking about their experiences,

::

the more the better.

::

And I know that a lot of

::

people are coming to

::

YouTube to learn new things and to,

::

you know, gain more information.

::

And I love that because it's

::

sort of like a living library, you know,

::

and I just I think it's for me anyway,

::

it's turning into that kind of a space.

::

And I, I guess, you know,

::

my algorithm is curated

::

that way on purpose.

::

Yeah.

::

But I love being a part of

::

this space and I'm glad to

::

have you joining it as well.

::

I think you have so much

::

important information to

::

share and I just can't wait

::

to see what you guys do.

::

It's going to be great.

::

Thank you.

::

Yeah.

::

It's always a pleasure to be here.

::

I love our conversations.

::

Yeah,

::

like back when I was struggling

::

through addiction and stuff,

::

like honestly,

::

what saved me a lot of

::

times was just going to

::

YouTube and finding like I

::

literally a couple of times

::

I remember I was like, I need help.

::

And sure enough,

::

like out popped forty

::

videos that were really, really helpful.

::

And I think that that's

::

where we're heading.

::

That's where we are.

::

And it's it's we're lucky to

::

have it and we're lucky to

::

have all these people now

::

that have a platform to to

::

share their experience in this life.

::

And so we can all connect on some level.

::

Yeah, I agree.

::

We're so we have so much in

::

common as human beings.

::

Yeah.

::

And I believe so many things

::

now are

::

the joy we seek,

::

the connection we seek is universal.

::

Thank you.

::

Yeah, it's universal.

::

And I think we're uncovering that,

::

getting away from politics

::

and all of that and

::

understanding where we have

::

common ground.

::

And I think that will spur a lot of joy,

::

purpose,

::

and kind of taking consciousness

::

to the next level.

::

Yeah, I totally agree with that.

::

I often have this

::

conversation that when we

::

remove all the labels from

::

ourselves and we get rid of

::

the cultural and political

::

and religious ideals,

::

we really are just all the

::

same human beings.

::

We're all looking for love

::

and belonging and

::

connection and prosperity

::

and peace and joy.

::

And the more we can focus on

::

that instead of focusing on

::

our differences,

::

the better the whole world

::

is going to be.

::

I agree completely.

::

So this is our third interview so far.

::

Sorry everyone for the long windedness.

::

No, I love it.

::

And I think the viewers are loving it too.

::

We're getting some really

::

positive things from

::

listening to your experiences.

::

So this is part two of

::

emotional manipulation in

::

the LDS mission.

::

Last time we focused on the

::

MTC and some of the

::

training you received

::

before you went out.

::

And I know that you had some

::

unique experiences because

::

you were in leadership as a missionary.

::

So where would you like to start?

::

Yeah, I think I thought about that.

::

And I think it starts with

::

before I was called to that.

::

and kind of just the dangers

::

of such a hierarchical structure.

::

And we didn't get into it so

::

much when we were our first

::

YouTube video where male

::

narcissism is more

::

prevalent because of the

::

dangers of the leadership

::

positions within the church.

::

And didn't really get into

::

discussing maybe why that

::

is outside of just

::

presenting a mask for everyone at church.

::

but then also being able to

::

use emotional manipulation

::

and spirituality to get those callings.

::

And that happened with me on my mission.

::

So to kind of,

::

for those that don't

::

understand about a mission,

::

it's built up in a

::

structure where the following you can,

::

when you first hit a mission,

::

you're a junior companion.

::

So junior companion,

::

you start off fresh green.

::

You're with a companion who

::

is called your trainer and

::

And he's been out longer,

::

he or she's been out longer than you,

::

obviously.

::

And then you work your way

::

up to eventually, hopefully be a trainer.

::

And then you can become a

::

district leader where

::

you're kind of in charge of.

::

Fifteen, sixteen to twenty missionaries,

::

and then you can work your

::

way up to a zone leader

::

where that's several

::

districts that you're in charge of.

::

And then the top of that is

::

you are an assistant to the president.

::

And that is where you're in

::

charge of along with the

::

mission president,

::

you're over all of those missionaries.

::

Okay.

::

And so when I got to my mission, um, we,

::

we were immediately told like,

::

it became clear that our

::

mission president who was

::

there only had one year left of his term.

::

And that's important because

::

mission presidents serve for three years.

::

And one thing I don't think

::

it's talked about enough is

::

when you get a new mission

::

president mid mission,

::

it's a big deal and it

::

changes everything.

::

It's like getting a new CEO.

::

Yeah,

::

because their leadership styles can

::

be so different.

::

They have a lot of control

::

over what rules are

::

enforced and how they're enforced.

::

And it's sort of like, I've talked about,

::

you know, Bishop Roulette so often,

::

and State President Roulette,

::

and there's Mission President Roulette.

::

So

::

you know, different Mormons.

::

And we talked about this in

::

your first interview,

::

how there's a million

::

different versions of

::

keeping the Sabbath day holy.

::

And you sort of, you know,

::

pick and choose what

::

commandments you're going

::

to follow and how you're

::

going to follow them.

::

So individual mission

::

presidents have a great

::

deal of influence over the

::

the tone of the mission.

::

And I think sometimes about

::

when David Bednar took over

::

at BYU-Idaho and really

::

ratcheted down on a lot of

::

the rules and things like that.

::

You couldn't wear flip-flops anymore.

::

You couldn't wear, you know,

::

shorts above the knee anymore.

::

There was just a lot of,

::

there was a lot of rewriting of rules.

::

So that happens on missions too.

::

And my daughter definitely

::

experienced that.

::

She had night and day different,

::

two different mission presidents.

::

Same.

::

And, and really you can ask any mission,

::

whether you had a good or

::

bad mission is really

::

dependent on your mission president,

::

because how they govern, how they rule,

::

um, they have complete authority and, um,

::

they have certain guidelines of course,

::

much like bishops, but they could,

::

you could have a completely

::

different mission

::

experience from one mission

::

president to the next.

::

outside of like the core

::

rules and the schedule and stuff.

::

But I mean,

::

it's really like getting an

::

entire new management team

::

for your business, you know?

::

Yeah.

::

My niece is serving a mission right now.

::

And my sister and

::

brother-in-law refer to him

::

as Santa Claus because it's

::

kind of a free for all.

::

And I'm actually relieved to

::

hear that because I know

::

that like the very,

::

very strict mission presidents,

::

it can be really damaging

::

for young people to to be

::

treated so harshly at a

::

time when they're very vulnerable.

::

yes yes so when i got there

::

um it became clear and this

::

is something we i wasn't

::

taught before um because

::

our mission president at

::

the time he was a very

::

older gentleman kind of old

::

school but just really kind

::

nice um but didn't really

::

go that deep and so your

::

mission president is really

::

important when you first

::

get there he's like your

::

dad he's like your your

::

lifeline and and everyone

::

looks up to them at least

::

in my mission but you know they would

::

people who had been on the

::

mission longer were like oh

::

you know we're gonna be so

::

sad when he leaves and at

::

that time when i got to the

::

mission it was like ten to

::

eleven months later his

::

term was gonna be up so i

::

had that in the back of my

::

mind right so um where i

::

wanted to go with this is

::

is you know the dangers of

::

the hierarchy and the

::

leadership positions and

::

the dangers that we learned

::

growing up of external

::

validation and getting that

::

recognition that we want and i

::

Hook, line and sinker right into that.

::

And maybe because I had more

::

narcissistic tendencies or whatever.

::

But that became really important to me.

::

I wanted to kick it in the teeth, you know,

::

and do my best.

::

And I didn't realize it at the time,

::

but I recognized.

::

So when you're first in a mission,

::

there's not much, you know, you just,

::

you want to do a good job.

::

But traditionally in our mission,

::

you get called,

::

you could be a trainer at

::

like six to eight to nine months.

::

And then you could get

::

called to be a district

::

leader at like a year.

::

And then a zone leader at

::

maybe four to five, six months later.

::

And then typically the

::

assistants in our mission

::

were called at eighteen to twenty months,

::

maybe even twenty two months.

::

And they would serve as an

::

assistant for three months.

::

And then their last six

::

weeks on the mission,

::

they would go back out into the field.

::

And that was kind of how it worked.

::

And so from caring about

::

external validation and leadership roles,

::

I immediately locked into that.

::

And I say this all just trying to admit it,

::

and I'm not saying all

::

missionaries do this,

::

but the upbringing does

::

kind of foster that, getting recognition.

::

Yeah, and I think I remember being told,

::

you know,

::

we're not supposed to aspire to

::

leadership positions, but

::

It's sort of part of the culture.

::

You know, it really is.

::

You know, of course,

::

the leadership is seen as, you know,

::

the most righteous and everything.

::

And if you're trying to prove your worth,

::

as we always were in the church,

::

that's a good way to prove your worth.

::

You know,

::

if you're in a leadership position,

::

then that means you must be

::

doing something right.

::

A lot of something's right.

::

Yes, absolutely.

::

And so I was trying to do that.

::

I was trying to be the best

::

new missionary they had ever seen.

::

And I worked my butt off to

::

the point where my trainer was like,

::

I judged the living hell

::

out of him for being lazy or whatever.

::

And he was a good trainer.

::

He really was.

::

But my level of expectation

::

and need to just be the

::

best were a little bit delusional.

::

And so I remember

::

specifically at six months

::

a missionary who I was in

::

the MTC with who was on the

::

same mission but serving in

::

a different area,

::

I got word that he got

::

called to be a trainer and

::

a district leader at like

::

six months or seven and a half months.

::

And instead of being happy

::

for this guy who's a sweet kid,

::

but I was devastated.

::

I mean,

::

way more devastated than I should

::

have been.

::

But, you know,

::

that's the culture of the

::

church because I was trying

::

to fast track my way to

::

being at the top and

::

getting noticed because I

::

needed that external

::

validation that I had learned.

::

Instead of just being

::

devoted to God and loving all of that.

::

So I'm not saying that all

::

missionaries were like that.

::

I know that just my dynamic growing up,

::

it produced a lot of

::

narcissistic tendencies.

::

And I thought that.

::

And I was devastated and I was depressed.

::

And I,

::

because I didn't get called to be

::

anything.

::

And I even remember the first,

::

because you get to meet

::

with the mission president

::

like once every three months,

::

once every six weeks, maybe even if that.

::

And I remember that first time, you know,

::

I'm trying to have him remember me.

::

I'm trying to, you know, in that interview,

::

prove myself like I'm going

::

to be a big deal here,

::

Yeah.

::

Hundreds of missionaries, right?

::

And so you're trying to,

::

do you remember how many

::

missionaries there were in your mission?

::

Yes.

::

I think on the last episode

::

I said one fifty,

::

but we were at one thirty.

::

Okay.

::

Yeah.

::

So out of one hundred and

::

thirty missionaries,

::

you're trying to be

::

remembered as someone who

::

is responsible and rule

::

follower and capable and

::

everything so that you can, you know,

::

get that leadership position.

::

Then you have, you know,

::

a ten-minute interview with them.

::

And I was like,

::

I'm going to make the most of this.

::

And that's kind of – I

::

didn't even realize it at the time.

::

But now, as we always say, you know,

::

you can piece together.

::

There was a little emotional

::

manipulation on my part there too.

::

And so then I started – I would even,

::

you know –

::

communicate to my mission my

::

companions and people in my

::

district that I was a

::

little I was sad that I

::

didn't get called to

::

anything because I'm

::

working my butt off you

::

know and so I'm like

::

lobbying which is

::

ridiculous and I have to

::

give myself some grace for

::

that but and they were like

::

and so I think they

::

literally told you know a

::

district leader my district

::

leader then told the zone

::

leader and then that next

::

uh transfer cycle which uh there's

::

you go in transfer cycles

::

and that's every six weeks

::

and every six weeks you

::

could be transferred you

::

could get a new companion

::

it's all up to the mission

::

president and the

::

assistance of how to manage

::

the mission and in our

::

mission the longest you

::

would stay in an area was

::

about six months

::

So I had been in that first

::

area for six months and

::

then I was called finally

::

to be a trainer and to go to a new area.

::

And so I was like, okay, all right,

::

I got some validation.

::

And I got partnered up with

::

this sweet kid from Brazil

::

who didn't speak a lick of English.

::

And he just spoke Portuguese

::

and his English was very, very limited.

::

So that was a really, it was fun.

::

And I felt honored to like be able to be,

::

you know,

::

a big brother to him and help

::

him with the language and stuff.

::

So we were out in Podunk,

::

Florida in the country for six months.

::

But leading up to that, right,

::

we had the new mission president come in.

::

and so we go to his own

::

conference and it's like

::

introduced and i'm not

::

going to use his name

::

because i truly do love

::

this man and he taught me a

::

lot of amazing things and

::

he was like a father to me

::

and he was a convert to the

::

church he didn't join until

::

his thing is mid-twenties

::

or maybe even early

::

thirties with his wife

::

And I'm realizing now that

::

gave him such a unique

::

perspective where he was

::

not in the bubble all growing up.

::

And he was able to come in

::

with this fresh look,

::

this fresh perspective.

::

And

::

So I remember meeting him and, you know,

::

he's a powerful guy.

::

You know, the first lesson he gave,

::

he was talked about how he

::

was a boxer and he's in these,

::

and I love fashion.

::

He's in these gorgeous suits that are like,

::

you know, five thousand dollar suits.

::

And I'm just like, wow, this is,

::

this is my guy.

::

You know, this, this guy, he's good.

::

He's got it.

::

And he's a very powerful storyteller.

::

His conversion story was powerful.

::

And he, he,

::

And keep in mind the

::

previous mission president,

::

when we get together,

::

he didn't do any of that.

::

He would just get up at zone

::

conferences and talk deep doctrine.

::

Just, we would all love it.

::

And he would just go really deep into Adam,

::

God, all this crazy stuff.

::

And we just ate it up

::

because that's just how he ran it.

::

And he just,

::

he just wanted to keep the

::

peace and keep the mission running.

::

He didn't really participate.

::

He just kind of, you know,

::

did what he needed to do.

::

And he was an old guy and

::

his wife was really, really sweet.

::

And so that was kind of the vibe,

::

but he also had this system

::

of hierarchy that everyone expected.

::

And so the new mission president comes in,

::

And I was just blown away by him.

::

He's a powerful businessman

::

out of California,

::

made a ton of money in

::

commercial real estate.

::

And he's wearing some sweet

::

ass suits and like eight

::

hundred dollar Italian shoes.

::

And I was just like,

::

this guy's like I was so

::

impressed by him.

::

And so it comes to that

::

point where I'm still in

::

podunk with my little

::

Brazilian companion to it's

::

his time to cycle through

::

all the missionaries and

::

interview all of them.

::

And during that time I had gone through,

::

I found out that my brother

::

was getting a divorce back

::

home and he was leaving the church.

::

That had happened within

::

like three months of that

::

first visit with the new

::

mission president.

::

And that was devastating as

::

a missionary to get those

::

emails and know that one of

::

your rocks that you looked up to

::

was leaving the church and

::

he was getting a divorce.

::

His wife cheated on him.

::

And that was devastating on the mission.

::

That was truly devastating.

::

And I think that might have

::

been the first time in the

::

back of my mind, I was like,

::

wait a minute.

::

I trusted him with

::

everything and he thinks it's not true.

::

So I think that was the

::

first piece of doubt.

::

So, yeah.

::

So I'm going in to talk to

::

the new mission president

::

one-on-one and subconsciously consciously,

::

I was like,

::

I'm going to make him remember me.

::

And, you know,

::

he asked how I was doing and

::

I told him that story and I

::

got choked up and I cried and

::

Um, it was,

::

it was a special moment with

::

him because he was a big businessman,

::

but he had a big heart and he was,

::

he was truly a good man.

::

And then didn't think much of it.

::

And then six weeks later,

::

it's time for transfers

::

like a week before transfers.

::

And I get a call from him at

::

my apartment and he's like, elder,

::

I I'd like to call you to

::

be my assistant.

::

and i was not expecting that

::

you know but instantly i'm

::

like shocked and speechless

::

but instantly it was just

::

like oh my gosh and it felt

::

really really good because that's that's

::

the most external validation

::

you can get on the mission.

::

And no one had been called.

::

I mean, I hadn't even been out a year and,

::

and I was just like, oh my gosh.

::

You're like, it's happening.

::

It's happening.

::

It's happening.

::

I did it.

::

We made it.

::

And I still have a year left on my mission,

::

you know?

::

So, um, but looking back, I,

::

I manipulated him, you know, I, um,

::

And he saw something in me

::

where he thought, okay,

::

this kid can reach these

::

other missionaries.

::

He's got some depth.

::

He's got some passion.

::

He's got some emotionality and well-spoken,

::

whatever.

::

And then I was the assistant

::

for that next year.

::

He didn't ever remove me.

::

and have me go back into the field.

::

And I had three or four

::

companions as an assistant that I stayed.

::

They came in and as an assistant,

::

we called another assistant

::

and I stayed that entire

::

time being his assistant.

::

Well,

::

I just want to pause for one second

::

and just give young

::

missionary you a little bit of grace.

::

Because, you know,

::

I know that part of what

::

we're doing here is like

::

looking back and saying,

::

that probably wasn't the

::

healthiest way to handle that, right?

::

But...

::

you know you were in a

::

moment where you really

::

were emotionally devastated

::

by what was going on with

::

your brother you know and

::

and so it's not like you

::

made up a story um you know

::

it's not like you

::

manufactured emotion you

::

really were feeling that um

::

so i just want to give you

::

that that much grace you

::

know because that it's a

::

it's a real thing and i

::

think that we are trained

::

in the Mormon church to use

::

emotion to not only convert ourselves,

::

but other people as well.

::

When we get up and bear our testimony,

::

we're encouraged to use our

::

devastating experiences, our heartbreaks,

::

our losses,

::

to demonstrate our faith and to,

::

and to help other people

::

have a faithful story that

::

they've heard as well, you know?

::

So it's like almost every,

::

and I call it open mic Sunday now where,

::

you know,

::

once a month members get up in

::

the congregation and tell

::

stories of their faith.

::

And as much as the

::

leadership tries to narrow

::

it down to like,

::

Please keep your testimony

::

brief and please stick to, you know,

::

these five things,

::

which is like the Savior,

::

the restored gospel, Joseph Smith,

::

the current prophet.

::

I forget what the five things are,

::

but like keep it in this area, right?

::

No matter how much they do that.

::

people go off on wild, crazy stories.

::

And maybe we'll do an

::

episode one time where we

::

just do crazy open mic stories,

::

because I heard some wild

::

stuff in testimony meeting

::

that should never have been

::

said from the pulpit, right?

::

But that's, you know, once a month,

::

we're encouraged to bear our

::

testimony as often as we can.

::

And I was definitely one of

::

those that was like,

::

I felt guilty if I didn't

::

get up every month and share,

::

share some experience

::

because I was always going

::

through something difficult

::

and then gaslighting myself into saying,

::

you know, but, but my faith is strong.

::

I believe God is with me, you know,

::

XYZ faith promoting story.

::

So I,

::

All of that just to say,

::

you came by it so honestly.

::

And that's the whole

::

conversation we're having

::

is that the church taught

::

us how to do this.

::

And we didn't realize at the

::

time that it wasn't healthy.

::

We didn't realize it wasn't authentic.

::

We thought it was.

::

We thought we were being the

::

most vulnerable,

::

authentic version of ourselves.

::

Yeah, absolutely.

::

And with that, it just popped into my head,

::

those testimony meetings, like,

::

you're just trying to be heard sometimes.

::

And the church,

::

the church really silences you.

::

And,

::

and I think I went through that

::

growing up,

::

like times you just want to be heard,

::

you know?

::

And, and, and I think maybe that,

::

that venting session that

::

some people have at the

::

testimony meeting and then they, you know,

::

twist it down to relate it to a testimony,

::

um, instead of just a venting session,

::

you know,

::

there might be something to that.

::

Um, but yeah, he, uh,

::

I did that.

::

And it was a dream come true

::

because I knew everyone in

::

that mission was going to be like, what?

::

He's been out how long?

::

And I, I, I thrived on that.

::

But I also thought I was

::

like the spirit confirmed to him, man,

::

like we're going to do great things.

::

This is going to be,

::

this is going to be great.

::

This is going to be fun.

::

And, you know,

::

so he started immediately

::

and this guy was a brilliant businessman.

::

He was a brilliant entrepreneur.

::

alpha male,

::

not in the toxic masculinity

::

sense for a guy of his age.

::

Um, but we,

::

we started right away and he

::

immediately had me and my

::

current companion who he did not choose,

::

who had already been,

::

who was already the assistant.

::

And there was already, you know,

::

rumblings from him that he

::

was not happy about it

::

because he had this other guy lined up.

::

And I feel bad for the other

::

missionary who was done

::

everything he was supposed to do.

::

And he was,

::

he was his own leader and it

::

was his time to be assistant.

::

and they called me instead.

::

And so there was rumblings

::

going throughout that.

::

And I think my mission

::

president kind of knew that

::

and that it would be controversial.

::

So he had us go out to every district,

::

and we me and the current my

::

current companion at the

::

time to talk to them you

::

know we use it as an excuse

::

we got to show this you

::

know safety video for

::

driving in the rain in

::

florida but then you know

::

kind of he wanted to show

::

like this is my new general

::

and this is how it's going to be

::

and so i mean from a

::

business perspective he ran

::

that mission like a

::

business and he knew

::

exactly how to get the

::

results i mean down to we

::

we had you know kpis

::

obviously the church does

::

key performance indicators

::

and we figured out if this

::

went up baptisms would go

::

up if this went down this

::

would happen this went down

::

and so i learned so much

::

from him and i will say

::

He did have the compassion,

::

spiritual side of it.

::

He was just a powerhouse.

::

And I learned so much from him.

::

But before we get into that,

::

right as I was called,

::

we were going to get a

::

visit from a member of the

::

Quorum of the Seventy.

::

Because periodic throughout your mission,

::

you're going to get visited.

::

And I think this was normal

::

and I didn't know that.

::

But it was Greg C. Christensen,

::

and he was a football player at BYU,

::

married his wife, Debbie,

::

right after his mission.

::

And then he ran several car dealerships,

::

management companies.

::

He got his MBA out of California.

::

And he was a good

::

businessman and loyal to the church.

::

And he was called to be a

::

mission president at age thirty nine.

::

You know, I looked all this up.

::

And so he came to the mission.

::

Pretty young.

::

Yeah.

::

And then to the quorum of

::

the second seventy when he was, you know,

::

six years later,

::

back in two thousand two.

::

And so he came to the mission and.

::

when that happens,

::

he comes to the mission

::

president's house and it's us,

::

me and my other companion,

::

who was still from the old regime.

::

And, you know, we have dinner with them.

::

He's going to address the

::

entire mission the next day.

::

And he's there.

::

And so we had very intimate

::

dinner with him and several hours of, of,

::

of talking.

::

And then he's like, all right, uh,

::

elder so-and-so and elder so-and-so,

::

if you would join me in the other room,

::

um,

::

And then, you know,

::

and the mission president.

::

And so what happened next

::

was kind of bizarre.

::

He grilled my companion and

::

me about the mission.

::

And keep in mind,

::

I've been an assistant for

::

like two weeks.

::

And so, and he's asking basically,

::

do the missionaries respect

::

this new mission president?

::

Does he have control of this mission?

::

will this will these

::

missionaries listen to him

::

and you know i'm i'm

::

Like, oh, crap.

::

Because I did believe in him.

::

And I was honest.

::

I was like, you know,

::

there's people who still

::

like the old regime.

::

And because my mission,

::

and I keep wanting to say his name,

::

but I don't want to do that

::

because I just respect for him.

::

He was ruffling feathers and

::

he was ready to get this

::

thing as a baptizing mission.

::

And the old mission

::

president didn't do that.

::

He was just like, serve your two years.

::

Don't go home early.

::

Do your best.

::

And let's talk about some deep doctrines.

::

Well, the new mission president was like,

::

we're going to turn this

::

into a machine and we're

::

not going to stop.

::

And obviously,

::

that rubbed some

::

missionaries the wrong way.

::

But I was full team him.

::

I worshipped him.

::

And I was just like,

::

if he hasn't gotten the respect yet,

::

he will get it instantly.

::

I was like, we're going to do this.

::

We're going to do that.

::

And I'm talking to this

::

member of the Seventy.

::

Well,

::

my mission president is sitting right

::

there during this.

::

whoa that's really putting

::

you on the spot yeah yeah

::

it was it was very intense

::

and so i can kind of just

::

show you um the intricacies

::

in the system that the

::

church is and they're

::

they're making sure

::

everything you're checking

::

all the boxes right now

::

okay can you answer this

::

question for me because

::

i've never like people have

::

explained this to me and

::

i've never gotten a

::

satisfactory answer what in

::

the world is the quorum of the seventy

::

Like I know it's leadership.

::

I know, I know it.

::

I know it.

::

Like these are the dudes who

::

sit on the stand during

::

general conference.

::

They all get their stipend.

::

They all get their living allowance and,

::

and whatever, you know,

::

I know that they go around

::

and visit and just like you're saying,

::

you know,

::

they check in with the leadership,

::

how are things working, you know?

::

But I cannot for the life of

::

me figure out like what,

::

what's the point of that court?

::

Like I, okay.

::

Intellectually understand it, but like,

::

in the hierarchy of the church.

::

It's like bishop, stake president,

::

area president, right?

::

Are the area presidents part

::

of the Quorum of the Seventy?

::

Why is it called the Quorum

::

of the Seventy?

::

There aren't seventy of them.

::

I just could never make this

::

make sense in my brain.

::

Man, at one time I did.

::

So I was kind of just going

::

Googling him and seeing the history.

::

So it appears that, yeah,

::

because obviously you have bishops,

::

stake presidents in what you said,

::

high councilmen area there.

::

it said he was in charge of

::

a certain area so I think

::

it's just the uppers in the

::

localness um report to him

::

because as he was always

::

like and you know from this

::

time to this time he served

::

the Salt Lake City Utah

::

Valley area and I think

::

they just they keep keep

::

tabs visit visit

::

occasionally meet with the

::

leadership making sure

::

maybe communicating

::

from the uh even the quorum

::

of the twelve of things

::

that are coming and what

::

they're focusing on but i

::

think it's just a glorified

::

go visit different churches

::

each week and um but in

::

terms of like the meetings

::

that the quorum of the

::

seventy have i i don't know

::

i think we've got to do

::

some research and figure

::

that out so i don't feel

::

like under uh informed on

::

that but yeah i'm not quite

::

sure but every time they

::

mentioned it he was in charge of an area

::

And I have to assume those are, you know,

::

areas, stakes, and then he communicates,

::

you know,

::

bringing the information down the line,

::

you know, just like leadership hierarchy.

::

Yeah,

::

like they get their marching orders

::

from the Fifteen who are in charge.

::

And then, you know,

::

they sort of bring that

::

message to wherever they're

::

visiting and say, you know,

::

this is what the Fifteen

::

are telling us you need to

::

focus on or fix or change or whatever.

::

So, yeah,

::

I think it's it's sort of like in

::

the Catholic Church where

::

they have cardinals over

::

certain areas or whatever.

::

It really is a machine.

::

It really is a corporation.

::

You know,

::

it functions exactly the same way.

::

I just never understood, I guess,

::

why they called it the Seventy.

::

I think originally there were seven.

::

I don't know.

::

It was one of those things

::

that when I left Mormonism, I was like,

::

well,

::

there's something I never have to

::

figure out or worry about.

::

Yeah.

::

and here we are talking

::

about right

::

yeah they

::

are for sure paid they're

::

apart they're on the

::

payroll they get a car they

::

get a free car they get

::

they're they're in the

::

they're in the paid realm right

::

Whereas like stake presidents,

::

high councilmen, area presidents,

::

they're not.

::

These guys are.

::

So overseeing global church administration,

::

the world is divided into

::

areas and members of the

::

Quorum of the Seventy are

::

assigned to preside over

::

different areas of the church.

::

They ensure church policies, handbooks,

::

and leadership guidelines are followed.

::

They report to the Quorum of

::

the Twelve Apostles.

::

public relations and outreach.

::

They speak at conferences.

::

He's given talks in general conference,

::

church discipline and authority,

::

mission oversight and direction,

::

and supervising local leaders.

::

There's the first and second quorum.

::

These are high-ranking members.

::

They often serve until

::

retirement age at the age

::

of seventy and have

::

significant influence in

::

church government.

::

Area Seventies,

::

these leaders are not

::

general authorities but serve regionally.

::

Key takeaway,

::

Quorum of the Seventy acts as

::

the enforcers of the system,

::

ensuring that directives

::

from the First Presidency

::

and the Twelve Apostles are

::

implemented without question.

::

They provide oversight, discipline,

::

and administrative control

::

while keeping lower-level leaders,

::

stake presidents, bishops,

::

and mission presidents in line.

::

So there we go.

::

Wow, that's some telling language.

::

I mean, even from AI, you know,

::

to sort of glean that

::

they're the enforcers,

::

they're there to keep people in line.

::

And so just so that people understand too,

::

especially those who've never been Mormon,

::

the way that you get to be

::

called as a bishop,

::

this blew my mind when I found this out,

::

that the state presidency

::

gets together and they look

::

at the tithing records and

::

they see who's paying the most tithing.

::

Yeah.

::

It's the top five dudes.

::

And then they,

::

I guess they pray about it

::

and get inspiration as to, you know,

::

which of those five dudes

::

is going to be the best to be the Bishop.

::

And then stake presidents

::

kind of the same thing, right?

::

It's like,

::

have they served in leadership before?

::

Have they been a Bishop?

::

They usually go from being

::

on Bishop to being on the stake, uh,

::

stake council.

::

Is that what it's called?

::

The state council?

::

For some reason,

::

that doesn't sound right in my mind.

::

The high council?

::

It's like the high council.

::

There it is.

::

Yeah.

::

The high council where...

::

It's like former bishops,

::

formerly there were twelve of them,

::

and they would go around

::

and visit the different

::

wards and report back to

::

the stake president what

::

was happening in the different wards.

::

So if you've served as a

::

bishop and you've been on

::

the high council,

::

then you're eligible for stake president.

::

Stake president gets chosen

::

much the same way.

::

It's like if you meet those

::

two qualifications and

::

you're paying lots of tithing,

::

you can be a stake president.

::

then once you've served as a

::

stake president,

::

you're eligible for like

::

mission president or, you know,

::

area authority or whatever.

::

But it really is just a big

::

bunch of cronies.

::

You know, it's like, who do you know?

::

Who would you recommend?

::

You know, whose names have been out there?

::

You know, that kind of stuff.

::

It's just, I don't know.

::

Yeah.

::

It's not a led by the spirit thing.

::

It's literally at the Bishop level,

::

it's top five type payers.

::

Let's pick one.

::

And then stake president, um,

::

I know this because my

::

mission president explained

::

how his mission,

::

his stake presidency interview.

::

And there was like ten or

::

fifteen of them called in.

::

And then at the end, they ask, you know,

::

give us three to five other

::

names who we should be

::

considering for this.

::

Wow.

::

Wow.

::

That's telling.

::

Yes.

::

Yes, it is.

::

So.

::

Wow.

::

So he came and so we had that thing.

::

But like,

::

I'm going to comment on the

::

experience we had.

::

with Greg and Debbie at dinner.

::

And so she shows up and I,

::

and I've thought about this a lot.

::

Cause I'm like, well, John, you're,

::

you're trying to be a healer now.

::

We don't want to be talking S about people,

::

but I feel like this is,

::

this is punching up and you

::

always want to be punching up.

::

I don't want to punch and be arguing.

::

with other Mormons.

::

I want to punch the system

::

and I want to punch the

::

leadership who's fostering all of this.

::

Right.

::

Kind of like government,

::

like we shouldn't be

::

attacking each other.

::

We should be attacking the

::

system and the leaders of this.

::

Right.

::

So systems, not people.

::

Yeah.

::

And,

::

but once you're in the system and you

::

don't do anything to change it,

::

you're culpable, you know?

::

So she shows up and, you know,

::

bless her heart,

::

her whole life from the day she died,

::

married him has been in his shadow, right?

::

He's a football player and

::

then just church calling

::

after church calling.

::

And she's just the wife and

::

I don't know what her hopes

::

and dreams are,

::

but I'm sure she had them

::

and she wasn't able to do that.

::

So now I'm able to look at

::

it with a lot more compassion,

::

but she was dripping in diamonds, jewelry,

::

um,

::

And she was in a very nice,

::

I still remember it, blue skirt suit,

::

just care perfectly.

::

Everything was perfect.

::

And she was just very like, uh-huh.

::

And she would make like

::

backhanded comments to the

::

mission president's wife

::

about the decorations and the dinner.

::

And even I was taken aback

::

and I looked over at the

::

mission president's wife

::

and I was just like,

::

okay.

::

And I'm just very kind of judgy and,

::

and just miserable.

::

And I can imagine that would

::

not be a fun life to just

::

follow your husband around

::

and doing all this church BS, you know?

::

so there was that part of it

::

and then greg was okay you

::

know he was he was stern he

::

wasn't that much of a

::

talker he did brag about

::

the car dealerships he

::

owned and that he could get

::

my mission president a

::

cooler car and you know she

::

did brag about the money

::

they had and all of her

::

jewels and what it costs

::

right that's what a mission

::

president needs is a cooler car

::

Yeah, absolutely.

::

For sure.

::

And so I, and I'm, I'm fresh.

::

I have just gotten the apex

::

leadership role that I've

::

been dreaming of.

::

And I'm sitting there with

::

like higher ups expecting to see Jesus,

::

you know,

::

and have a great religious experience,

::

which is unfair.

::

Yeah.

::

I'm just like,

::

these aren't even great people.

::

Like I was,

::

it was a very surreal moment

::

and I'm looking across it

::

because I had already

::

connected with my mission

::

president's wife and my

::

mission president.

::

Like I was,

::

I'm able to do that through the

::

skills that I've learned.

::

And we're kind of looking at each other,

::

like giving each other the look,

::

like we're already

::

gossiping just by looking at this.

::

And it was just,

::

and then they left and we gossiped.

::

for an hour about them.

::

And then he went up and

::

spoke to all our missions,

::

missionaries the next day.

::

So that was just a very telling thing.

::

And I think we even said like,

::

they're not very Christ-like, you know,

::

like she was just bragging

::

about the money,

::

bragging about the jewelry

::

showing up and just dripping.

::

And I think she even made a

::

comment like in Salt Lake, she can't

::

wear all that much.

::

And, you know,

::

so when she gets out of there,

::

she wants to, to show it off.

::

And I'm like, you know what?

::

No girl, do, do your thing.

::

You know, flaunt that jewelry,

::

do whatever you got to do.

::

Your life does not sound fun.

::

Obviously at the time I did

::

not think that I was just like, yeah.

::

Okay.

::

So this is how the church is run.

::

This is interesting.

::

And I'm logging all of this.

::

I'm like,

::

so basically they call the use

::

used car salesman.

::

Now, that's unfair.

::

I mean,

::

he played football at BYU four years,

::

served a mission in Chile,

::

became a mission president

::

at thirty eight.

::

And then at forty six became

::

a general authority.

::

And I was just like.

::

Honestly, very disappointed.

::

Yeah,

::

I honestly thought I was just like

::

our mission president kills this guy.

::

Like we need more men like

::

my mission president in there.

::

And I would say that.

::

And they would never do that

::

because he was too.

::

not like that he was I don't

::

know real it's hard to

::

explain but I remember that

::

firsthand just being like

::

that was that was an odd experience

::

Yeah, and it's so disappointing, you know,

::

as a young idealistic missionary,

::

I can just imagine, you know,

::

you're expecting, you know,

::

and I had this expectation too,

::

that you're expecting that

::

the higher up you get in

::

leadership in the church,

::

maybe the more humble,

::

maybe the more Christ-like,

::

and the more kind, the more loving,

::

right?

::

the church that I wanted to believe in,

::

you know, that, that was it.

::

It was like, you're,

::

you're getting more

::

Christ-like and more humble as you,

::

as you sort of go up in

::

leadership and who we want

::

leading the church is people who are,

::

you know, who are emulating,

::

exemplifying the traits of Jesus Christ,

::

you know, kindness, compassion, love,

::

long suffering, humility.

::

Yeah.

::

And that to me was the big thing.

::

I had a similar

::

disappointing experience

::

meeting David Bednar.

::

Although, you know,

::

I have to say I was way too

::

Mormon at the time to be

::

disappointed by it, but I just noted it.

::

You know, I just noted it.

::

And so he came to San Antonio to speak.

::

Of course, it was a huge deal.

::

You know,

::

we hadn't had an apostle there in,

::

you know, a really long time.

::

And, you know,

::

he came to speak at our

::

state conference or we had

::

like a special meeting that was just,

::

we called just because he was there,

::

you know.

::

we had the meeting,

::

of course,

::

like it was very inspirational.

::

You know,

::

I can talk about what he talked

::

about some other time,

::

but just to say that when

::

the meeting was over, of course,

::

everybody wants to go shake his hand,

::

you know,

::

and so he's up there on the

::

stand and people are lining

::

up to go up there and shake his hand.

::

And there still is like

::

organ music softly playing, you know,

::

it's still a sort of a

::

reverent environment.

::

There's like a low rumble of

::

whispering going on.

::

And at one point he,

::

he just stopped talking to

::

whoever he was talking to.

::

And he went up to the podium and he said,

::

brothers and sisters,

::

when the spirit leaves, so must I.

::

And it wasn't like a gentle

::

sort of a rebuke.

::

It was like, shut up.

::

That was the tone of voice

::

that he was using to tell

::

us that we were getting too

::

loud inside the chapel.

::

And I just remember thinking, what?

::

What?

::

Did an apostle of the Lord

::

Jesus Christ just tell us to shut up,

::

basically?

::

I mean, it was stern.

::

It was not kind in any way.

::

So I guess it didn't really

::

ruffle my feathers enough

::

at the time that I was like,

::

what's wrong with this guy?

::

But it was sort of just this

::

little dissonant tone of like,

::

does he really represent Jesus Christ?

::

It's those little moments.

::

his mask came off for a

::

little bit and you see that

::

and it's like jarring.

::

It's like, Whoa,

::

that's a great way to put it.

::

Like the mask slipped just for a second.

::

Yeah.

::

And it was like,

::

I didn't realize it was a

::

mask at the time, but now whenever I,

::

whenever I see him

::

recordings of him speaking anywhere,

::

it's so obvious to me now

::

being out of the church and

::

having learned the

::

about narcissistic abuse

::

having learned that that's

::

what i went through being

::

able to spot narcissistic

::

behavior now i can't unsee

::

it you know so every time i

::

see him speak or interact

::

with people i can see it in

::

his face i can see it in

::

his body language i can

::

hear it in the tone of his

::

voice you know it's it's so

::

easy for me to detect now

::

and that's one of the

::

reasons why we're having

::

these conversations because

::

i want other people to be

::

able to see it for what it is as well

::

Yeah.

::

Like these are just men that

::

have no special anything

::

and they're raised in Salt

::

Lake and in the church and they're,

::

they're,

::

they have deep narcissistic tendencies.

::

They don't take

::

accountability and you are

::

going to see their mask come off.

::

And we're seeing that a lot with Bednar.

::

I mean,

::

Reddit's having a field day with him.

::

And then some other gal,

::

famous ex-Mormon influencer

::

was reading off all these

::

experiences with Bednar,

::

and it's just like,

::

that's who he really is.

::

Bottom line.

::

And it's... Yeah,

::

not only are these men not Christ-like,

::

they're not even good men, a lot of them.

::

No, no.

::

I mean, I just... There was...

::

It's just sad.

::

So, yeah,

::

that was my first experience with,

::

you know, a major church person.

::

And I was underwhelmed and

::

it was very quick for us

::

all to kind of just scratch

::

our heads and be like,

::

did you all were we all here for that?

::

Did that just happen?

::

They're like the energy felt weird.

::

Yeah.

::

it was not a great feeling.

::

And that kind of makes you think, well,

::

these guys are running this church.

::

But as you were,

::

I was far too Mormon at the

::

time to really take that in.

::

I could see that now.

::

Right.

::

But it was just like, all right, well,

::

he's gone.

::

Let's get back to work.

::

You know, come on.

::

And so that I wanted to talk

::

about that because that's

::

how all these guys are.

::

And I'm sure some of them are good men.

::

But I remember later on in

::

my mission as I had

::

been with my mission president,

::

seen his genius,

::

I knew he would never be

::

called higher up because I

::

saw how he spoke.

::

from the pulpit and I saw

::

how they spoke from the

::

pulpit and there were two

::

very different things.

::

Their BS, um,

::

general conference talks

::

don't do anything.

::

I mean,

::

every time my mission president spoke,

::

it was like, everyone is listening.

::

We are excited.

::

He's going to give us some

::

really good advice.

::

He's going to, uh,

::

get us all ready to run

::

through a brick wall.

::

And, um,

::

Salt Lake wouldn't like that, honestly.

::

He wouldn't fit in.

::

And during my tenure as an assistant,

::

I could see that.

::

And I was honestly kind of sad about it.

::

And I think I talked to him about it.

::

And he was like, oh,

::

they'll never call me to that.

::

Because I think he knew too,

::

which is very interesting.

::

I mean,

::

you're talking about a guy who got

::

our mission up and

::

ran you know ran it like a

::

business and was there for

::

his missionaries and he was

::

not perfect and sometimes

::

he ran it too much like a

::

business and but we were

::

really successful doing

::

that very successful doing

::

that and that's how the

::

church runs it's a business

::

Yeah.

::

Yeah.

::

So he came in,

::

he sort of implemented some new policies.

::

You guys started, you know,

::

keeping track of different metrics and,

::

you know,

::

you started to see an increase

::

in baptisms and that.

::

So can you talk a little bit

::

about what he changed and

::

why that led to more

::

baptisms and maybe what the

::

other missionaries, you know,

::

what their reactions were

::

to these new policies and some of that?

::

Yes, absolutely.

::

So very quickly,

::

you could understand like

::

if we had a meeting with

::

him and we met with him a

::

lot in the beginning, as you can imagine,

::

he had thought about this

::

stuff like all night and he

::

used his business acumen to

::

figure it out.

::

And one of the first things

::

he did was just a simple like, okay,

::

when we have more

::

discussions with members,

::

those people typically have

::

a higher likelihood of getting baptized.

::

So that was just like a low

::

hanging fruit that he said

::

that we could try to implement, right?

::

So you're talking about

::

missionaries teaching

::

somebody when there's a member present,

::

like the member invites

::

someone and the missionaries teach them.

::

Yeah, that makes total sense.

::

yeah it's basically like you

::

got a referral right there

::

and you have someone um

::

it's a lot less yeah it's

::

just a better situation for

::

everyone and those people

::

had a like more higher

::

likelihood of getting

::

baptized so he's i think

::

that was one of the first

::

things he started and then

::

the next number he really

::

we focused on was so we

::

implemented that and he had

::

us go talk to the mission a lot and

::

as an assistant,

::

we're talking to the zone

::

leaders every week,

::

going through numbers.

::

They get all their numbers

::

from the district leaders.

::

So the numbers are like,

::

how many discussions did you have?

::

How many new investigators

::

did your district have?

::

How many lessons did you

::

teach with a member present?

::

How many baptisms do you have?

::

How many baptismal

::

invitations do you have?

::

And those nights, I mean,

::

we would be up till,

::

midnight,

::

two AM inputting all this data

::

because he cared about the

::

data big time to see how we did.

::

And it got to a point where, you know,

::

the zone leaders,

::

cause he invoked such

::

belief and power that we're

::

going to be the best mission out there.

::

And that rubbed a lot of the

::

people the wrong way,

::

but they eventually got in

::

line because if you didn't,

::

he was not that nice to you

::

and you wanted to be in his favor.

::

Cause he just had that effect.

::

I mean, this guy could have started.

::

I'm not even kidding.

::

Well, this is,

::

this is making me think a

::

little bit about, um,

::

I don't know if you saw, uh,

::

Jurassic world.

::

It's, you know, I,

::

I don't know the fourth or

::

fifth Jurassic park where the, you know,

::

the guy who owns everything

::

comes to visit the park and,

::

And the lady running it is

::

giving all the numbers like

::

our sales have increased

::

this percent and we're up, blah, blah,

::

blah, blah.

::

And he says, are the animals happy?

::

And she looks at him and she's like,

::

what do you mean?

::

He's like, are they enjoying life?

::

Are they happy?

::

Do you see it in their eyes?

::

You know, are they, you know,

::

and this is what strikes me

::

about the mission.

::

It's like,

::

you're supposed to be spreading

::

the gospel of Jesus Christ.

::

This is supposed to be

::

the most life altering

::

message that you're sharing

::

with these people and,

::

and it's supposed to change their lives.

::

You know,

::

they're supposed to come to

::

Christ and be transformed and, you know,

::

arguably have a better quality of life,

::

have better spirituality,

::

have better relationships.

::

And it's like,

::

the numbers are so important.

::

Did anybody think to ask,

::

are the missionaries happy?

::

Are they enjoying the teaching?

::

Are they thriving?

::

Are their testimonies growing?

::

Are they feeling peaceful?

::

I doubt very much that

::

anybody asked those sorts

::

of questions about like

::

your mental health,

::

about your spiritual health.

::

No, and that's where I can, you know,

::

he did have some faults, obviously,

::

because there wasn't a ton of that.

::

There really wasn't.

::

And he just tried to maximize, you know,

::

combinations of missionaries.

::

Like every time we would get

::

together to go over the transfers,

::

like who are we going to move?

::

Where are we going to put people?

::

And he was really big into that.

::

He had us make a little about this big.

::

Everyone had a picture, their picture,

::

magnet, and their name.

::

And we put it up on a

::

whiteboard like we were

::

calling a football play.

::

And in the beginning,

::

we really poured over that

::

for three to four hours of

::

like who we thought could

::

be good together.

::

This is a weak missionary

::

who's struggling with this.

::

Who could help him with that?

::

and,

::

and be really productive and get

::

stronger in the face.

::

So there was that, but in terms of like,

::

how are our missionaries doing?

::

He was a little bit more business minded,

::

not a tyrant, not a tyrant at all,

::

but he was just so good.

::

Every, every decision he made,

::

I was just like, that is brilliant.

::

And he got everyone on board

::

pretty quickly.

::

And if you were not on board,

::

you were kind of judged

::

honestly by the missionaries, by me,

::

Um, and, and he, he did,

::

he did a lot of that and he used me, um,

::

to kind of get out there and,

::

and maybe be the emotional

::

support sometimes.

::

Um,

::

but really getting all of these

::

missionaries to a point

::

where they believe they can do anything.

::

And I remember we later in the mission,

::

we went and we did a

::

training where just me and

::

it was another assistant at the time.

::

And our, he was like,

::

I need you guys to go

::

everywhere and inspire.

::

And we had like a two-hour

::

meeting and those meetings

::

honestly were insane.

::

Like we got to a point where

::

we just talked about belief

::

and scriptures about belief

::

and what is possible if you

::

have perfect belief.

::

And from those meetings,

::

they were like gigged up sales meetings,

::

right?

::

Like door-to-door sales selling Vivint,

::

you know,

::

and those guys are just like pumping.

::

We're going to sell a

::

thousand new alarm systems today.

::

But we were using the spirit

::

and motivation to be like, all right,

::

guys,

::

with that what do you think

::

is possible and we would

::

then have them set goals

::

and they set insane goals i

::

remember one crazy kid who

::

ended up being my uh

::

companion assistant they

::

were like we can teach two

::

hundred lessons this week

::

and we were like hell yeah

::

hell yeah which is just

::

insane yeah that's crazy

::

yeah and so like it was it

::

was a motivating kind of inspo type thing

::

And that was all that was

::

all mission president.

::

But we believed it.

::

We believed it.

::

And then it was like,

::

how many new investigators can we get?

::

You know,

::

and that was a big metric was like,

::

all right, we need.

::

And he I remember he said this,

::

the mission president,

::

if we have a bigger net and

::

we catch more fish.

::

you know, we gotta,

::

we gotta have a bigger net.

::

And that was trying to get

::

new investigators because

::

we saw if new investigators went up,

::

everything else kind of went up.

::

And so we focused on several

::

transfers of just get new investigators.

::

Like you better,

::

you better get five to ten this week.

::

And if the zone leaders

::

talked to me and called

::

with disappointing numbers,

::

they were like scared and apologetic.

::

And then, you know, president calls,

::

he's like,

::

Tell me the numbers, let's go through it.

::

And it was just like a business,

::

but it was effective.

::

Yeah.

::

I just want to clarify for

::

those who are not Mormon,

::

never been Mormon,

::

investigator is the

::

designation that

::

missionaries give anybody

::

who is talking to the missionaries.

::

So even if you're not really

::

that interested,

::

if the missionaries are

::

spending time with you,

::

you're an investigator.

::

And can you talk about sort

::

of like the book where

::

people's interactions get recorded?

::

Because I

::

I want people out there to know,

::

like if you have a

::

conversation with a missionary,

::

your name is in a book somewhere.

::

Yeah.

::

It's getting documented for sure.

::

Yeah, absolutely.

::

That was another thing was,

::

it was record keeping.

::

So you knew you could keep

::

tabs on everyone.

::

So yeah, there,

::

I forget what the book was called,

::

but yeah, you write down the area book,

::

I think.

::

Yeah.

::

Thank you.

::

So if I'm like,

::

when I first got called to

::

be a trainer with my little

::

Brazilian companion,

::

we went to a new area that,

::

You know,

::

normally you have a missionary

::

who's been there.

::

We had never been to this area.

::

I had never been.

::

The sister missionaries had

::

been in that area and they

::

decided to change it to elders.

::

So I go in fresh.

::

What do you do?

::

Well, you open that book up, right?

::

And you see everything.

::

Everyone who's less active, who they visit,

::

everywhere they track,

::

every investigator they have talked to,

::

you are in that book.

::

forever until you say,

::

don't ever come back.

::

And even then we probably

::

avoided that boundary and tried.

::

There's many a times where

::

people were just like, nah, man,

::

I'm not feeling it.

::

And we would go back and we

::

would go back and we would

::

go back because we don't have boundaries.

::

And we're,

::

we believe that our message is

::

more important than their boundary.

::

Yeah,

::

and I know that when I was a ward

::

missionary,

::

I was heavily involved with

::

helping the missionaries to

::

get people to teach.

::

And I know one of the things

::

that they would do is they

::

would even go knock on doors and say, oh,

::

we're looking for so-and-so

::

that we taught a few years ago.

::

do they still live here?

::

And it would be like some, you know,

::

new person who had never

::

seen the missionaries before or whatever.

::

Oh no,

::

that person like moved out a few

::

years ago or whatever.

::

Well, they would use that as an in.

::

Well, oh, okay.

::

Well, so-and-so moved away.

::

Well, would you be interested in hearing?

::

So it's not, it's not even just your name,

::

but if the missionaries

::

have ever visited someone

::

at your address who was

::

interested in the church,

::

they're going to keep

::

coming back to that address

::

because it's in the book.

::

as a potential place to find

::

someone to teach.

::

So yes, yeah, yeah, it's it blows my mind,

::

because I know my name is in the book,

::

you know, being an ex member,

::

and I'm sure that they have

::

notes about the last time

::

they were here when I

::

talked to them about the bite model.

::

And I asked them if they were safe.

::

I asked them if they felt safe to leave.

::

I asked them if they had enough to eat,

::

you know, if they were feeling, you know,

::

validated and safe and all that.

::

It's just a conversation about like,

::

how are you doing?

::

And that's what I do with

::

missionaries now when they

::

come around is I ask them

::

how they're doing.

::

Do you need anything to eat or drink?

::

You know,

::

if you need a safe place to

::

vent or you're having a hard time,

::

this is the place for you to come.

::

I'm here for you.

::

So I wonder if there is a

::

book and then a book, like,

::

do they also keep track of places that,

::

that might be like a safe

::

place for missionaries who

::

are struggling?

::

I wonder.

::

No, no, we didn't,

::

we didn't have any of that.

::

You kind of knew what

::

members were cool that, you know, they'd,

::

drive you places or, you know,

::

they'd have you over to watch a movie.

::

You knew who those people were, you know?

::

Yeah, for sure.

::

But yeah,

::

I'm hoping that what you provided

::

to them is used more.

::

Did you get any?

::

Have you had any takers?

::

No.

::

I mean, even when I was in the church,

::

I wanted to make it known

::

that my house was a safe space.

::

I told them every time they

::

came by my house, I was like,

::

if you are ever in need of anything,

::

come here.

::

I will feed you anytime,

::

even if you just need to

::

take a lunch to go or something like that,

::

like if you don't have

::

enough to eat that day or whatever.

::

Or if you need to write down

::

that you gave a lesson or something,

::

come to me.

::

I'm happy to be here for

::

whatever you need.

::

And I think that because my

::

former spouse was an inactive member,

::

he joined the church after

::

we'd been married for about a year or so.

::

And then he was only active

::

for a few months.

::

And so the missionaries were

::

always coming around

::

because we went through

::

like probably three or four

::

sets of missionaries before

::

he got baptized.

::

And then once he got baptized,

::

they wanted to make sure he

::

stayed active.

::

So we had missionaries over all the time.

::

I was always signing up to

::

have missionaries over.

::

And my oldest daughter,

::

she took it very seriously

::

to share the gospel with her friends.

::

And she had several of her

::

friends get baptized.

::

So we always had

::

missionaries in our house.

::

We were always feeding the missionaries.

::

I felt terrible.

::

if I wasn't on the calendar every month,

::

you know,

::

I try to make sure I was feeding

::

the missionaries every month.

::

But I also like really felt

::

compassion for what they

::

were going through and what

::

they were doing.

::

And I wanted to, you know,

::

I wanted to be that safe person.

::

I would, I would always ask them like, Hey,

::

can I,

::

can I text a picture to your mom or can I,

::

you know,

::

can I let your mom know how you're doing?

::

Cause this was, you know,

::

back before they were

::

allowed to contact their

::

parents very often or whatever.

::

I was like, come here on the holidays,

::

come here on your birthday.

::

You know,

::

just wanted to make sure that I did that.

::

And I, and I still feel that way,

::

but I know that there are

::

probably some missionaries

::

who won't come here because of,

::

because I'm an ex member

::

and because of what's in the book,

::

like she's not coming back guys.

::

How does, um,

::

How does your daughter feel

::

now that she's out about

::

converting her friends?

::

We actually did it.

::

I had her on.

::

We did a long episode where

::

we talked about her mission.

::

And what she said was she

::

thinks that her friends saw

::

our family as something

::

that a lot of them didn't have.

::

It was like,

::

even though dad wasn't coming to church

::

We had dinner together almost every night.

::

And, you know,

::

there was a loving feeling in the home.

::

And there was like that I

::

cared about her friends very much.

::

You know,

::

I wanted to know how they were doing.

::

I wanted to make sure that they felt,

::

you know, safe and welcome in my home.

::

I got to know them really well.

::

A lot of her friends called

::

me Mama and used my last name, you know.

::

And so it was very much this

::

feeling of like,

::

I think it was more just

::

the sense of family and the

::

sense of belonging for her friends.

::

And she was happy that they, you know,

::

felt welcomed and loved and accepted.

::

And, um,

::

It's really interesting,

::

just the sort of community

::

that my daughter had friends with.

::

I think three of her friends

::

were baptized while she was

::

in high school,

::

which is more than a lot of

::

missionaries get on their missions.

::

That is crazy.

::

And one of them is one of

::

them came out as gay and is

::

no longer in the church.

::

One of them came out as

::

trans and is no longer in the church.

::

And another one of them is

::

now non-binary and is not in the church.

::

But I just think about, you know,

::

I think about the, you know,

::

how beautiful it was to have.

::

such a strong connection and

::

to be there for those kids

::

at times when they maybe

::

didn't have other adults

::

that cared that much about them,

::

you know?

::

Oh yeah.

::

So anyway.

::

Yeah.

::

I have no doubt you had so

::

much empathy and I'm sure

::

they appreciated that so much.

::

So well done.

::

That's more than I, I did in high school.

::

Golly,

::

I was just trying to be cool and

::

play football, drive a car around.

::

I did not care.

::

I really didn't.

::

Yeah.

::

Yeah.

::

Anyway, we were, okay.

::

So we were talking about, yeah,

::

I'm in my head.

::

This sounded a lot better.

::

I don't know if it's interesting for,

::

for people to see.

::

Oh, I'm sure.

::

I'm sure it is like, like what, you know,

::

people see the missionaries

::

out on the street and,

::

And of course,

::

it's kind of like the Mormon icon, right?

::

They are the billboard for the church.

::

So you see the classic

::

short-sleeved white shirt,

::

the classic black name tag, you know,

::

tie and everything,

::

and you think Mormons.

::

And it's a clean, wholesome image.

::

And I think a lot of people

::

see that as a billboard and

::

don't consider the fact

::

that they're real people

::

They're real young men and

::

young women who are really

::

trying hard to do their

::

best to do what is expected

::

of them and to check the

::

boxes that make them

::

acceptable in their family system.

::

And a lot of them have made

::

really big sacrifices to be out there

::

you know,

::

doing this mission for the church,

::

it's totally a social expectation,

::

societal expectation.

::

So I want people to

::

understand more what that

::

experience is like for the

::

actual people who are going through it.

::

And I think it does resonate with people.

::

And I hope also,

::

that it creates a larger

::

conversation around like,

::

when you see these guys on the street,

::

you know,

::

don't slam the door in their face.

::

You know,

::

you may not want to talk with

::

them about the gospel,

::

but just ask them if they're okay,

::

you know, provide a meal for them,

::

give them a bottle of beer,

::

be kind to them because they,

::

a lot of them,

::

didn't really choose to be there.

::

There are a lot of

::

missionaries who are those

::

religious zealots who will

::

try to Bible bash with you and whatever,

::

but they're just human

::

beings who have been

::

indoctrinated and brainwashed in the MTC,

::

and they don't really understand the

::

that it's not a good look.

::

They don't really understand

::

that the message is sort of

::

bigoted and harmful.

::

They really think that they

::

are saving souls out there.

::

So anyway,

::

I just hope that there's more compassion.

::

I hope there's more

::

compassionate treatment of

::

LDS missionaries,

::

because it always breaks my

::

heart when I see a harmful

::

argumentative interaction

::

between LDS missionaries and someone.

::

I saw a TikTok just this morning

::

um where a black lady

::

invited these three

::

missionaries into her house

::

and basically yelled at

::

them because of the bigoted

::

teachings of the church and

::

this poor elder was saying

::

no you know we just we just

::

want to share a message

::

with you you know and she's

::

and she you know fought

::

back and she yelled back

::

and she was like but you're

::

not going to tell me about

::

the priesthood ban and

::

you're not going to tell me

::

this and you're not going

::

to tell me that and she's right

::

Don't get me wrong.

::

She's right.

::

But I just think about that

::

experience for those poor young guys.

::

And they're already going

::

through something that's so hard.

::

So I just hope this

::

conversation helps those interactions.

::

Yeah.

::

That's a good point.

::

And, you know, I get that lady.

::

When I see missionaries in the past,

::

it's honestly,

::

it triggers and it makes me angry.

::

And I want to scream at them

::

like this lady has.

::

But you're being the more

::

compassionate person here.

::

And I still have some things

::

I have to work on because a

::

lot of that is.

::

you're so angry that these

::

people are still a part of

::

that world that you have

::

worked so hard to get away from.

::

And it's some projection too

::

that you fell for it a little bit,

::

maybe a little guilt trip too.

::

But to that lady, to myself,

::

it's not their fault.

::

We need to be punching at the leadership,

::

not these poor missionaries.

::

you know,

::

and that's where I think punching

::

up is always a good idea.

::

But you're right,

::

I'm going to have a lot

::

more compassion for the

::

little guys in ties,

::

and just make sure that they're okay.

::

And because as we said before, like,

::

there's a lot more mental

::

health stuff we're aware of now.

::

And, and these missions,

::

I'm telling everyone, if you don't know,

::

they are

::

daunting.

::

They are traumatizing.

::

They are so hard of just

::

constantly trying to feel worthy enough.

::

And while doing some very

::

uncomfortable things and

::

getting out of your comfort

::

zone and talking to people

::

and having to have the

::

space to know that you're

::

trying to save them for eternity,

::

that is a big responsibility to put on an

::

And you could be the reason

::

that they don't get to the

::

highest degree of heaven.

::

No one should have to think

::

that or do that,

::

let alone when you're away

::

from your family,

::

isolated for two years at that age.

::

yeah and can you talk a

::

little bit about the

::

concept that if you are not

::

perfectly obedient then

::

that's going to be damaging

::

for people out there in the

::

field i mean you touched on

::

it just a little bit just

::

now but i i don't think

::

people understand that that

::

is an expectation like

::

perfect obedience is an

::

expectation literally

::

yes you follow every single

::

rule and if you don't

::

that's why you're not

::

baptizing that's why you're

::

not happy that's why you're

::

struggling so that is so

::

toxic so you're you're

::

constantly like maybe you

::

are that you're you're

::

doing your your absolute

::

best you're doing

::

everything right and yet

::

you haven't found success

::

and you're getting discouraged

::

Where do you think that's

::

going to lead you to think

::

that it's my fault?

::

This is on me.

::

I'm clearly doing something

::

wrong that God doesn't like,

::

or I'm not being obedient enough.

::

So what do you do?

::

You push harder.

::

You try to get more strict

::

even with the already

::

insanely strict rules.

::

And it all relates to obedience.

::

And obedience equals love.

::

And obedience equals blessings.

::

And if you're not getting those,

::

then something's wrong with you.

::

Not what's wrong with this

::

system or this setup.

::

There's something wrong with you.

::

And you struggle with that every day.

::

Yeah, and isn't the saying,

::

obedience brings blessings,

::

perfect obedience brings

::

miracles or something like that?

::

Yeah, and to a point where...

::

I even did it with our

::

missionaries teaching like

::

if we truly had perfect

::

obedience and belief,

::

we could literally move

::

mountains because that's

::

what the scripture says.

::

And so that's just an

::

unattainable fantasy.

::

And but as a missionary,

::

you're in it and everyone's

::

being spiritual and you're

::

all trying to do this together.

::

And so you're trying to one up everything.

::

And then obviously with the

::

external validation,

::

those missionaries that are

::

doing well get praised and

::

they get recognized.

::

And you could be working

::

twice as hard and they just got lucky.

::

But

::

they're going to get the benefit,

::

they're going to get to write, you know,

::

and they're preaching my

::

gospel that they baptize this person or,

::

or whatever, when really,

::

that that shouldn't be what

::

it what it's about.

::

So yeah,

::

the meritocracy of the mission is real.

::

At least for us,

::

because our mission

::

president wanted results.

::

He wanted to convert more people.

::

And he really believed he

::

wanted to convert more people.

::

But

::

he ran that mission into a

::

very successful business

::

that any consulting firm

::

would go in and say, yeah,

::

he did all the right things

::

to get more results.

::

Results being baptisms.

::

Results being getting

::

recognized from the higher ups that,

::

holy cow,

::

this mission baptized X amount

::

last year and they're on

::

pace to hit this year and

::

then even more after that.

::

It's a lot of pressure and

::

It's never enough.

::

It's never enough.

::

You can always work harder.

::

You can always pray harder.

::

You can always study more.

::

You can always track more.

::

You can always have more faith.

::

And every second that you

::

knock on that door, like, oh,

::

if they said no, you're left thinking,

::

well, did I not have enough faith?

::

And that can drain you.

::

Yeah, totally.

::

And it strikes me that obviously, you know,

::

metrics are important.

::

You know, measuring results are important.

::

But when there's a hyper

::

focus on the number and the

::

percentages and all of that,

::

the human element gets left behind.

::

There are people suffer.

::

They fall through the cracks

::

when we just focus on numbers only.

::

Yeah, absolutely.

::

But it's kind of how the church runs it.

::

even with tithing, you know, it, to me,

::

I realized this morning,

::

like that mission and how it was run,

::

that's how the church is run.

::

You know, they, they go off numbers,

::

tithing activity, all of that.

::

And, you know,

::

we discussed who's in charge and,

::

and they don't,

::

you know, how are we doing?

::

You know, how are the members doing?

::

And maybe this last survey

::

was an effort to do that,

::

but it was more of like

::

kind of what we said, like,

::

how do you feel about this?

::

Do you think this is a sin?

::

You know,

::

would you leave the church if we

::

change this policy?

::

So

::

And that human element on a mission for a

::

you know,

::

my mission president found a way

::

to rally his troops and get

::

us to be absolutely devoted to the cause.

::

Honestly.

::

Do you happen to remember

::

what the numbers were like

::

before and after he

::

implemented all of these

::

new policies and everything?

::

Yeah, approximately.

::

So these are approximate.

::

So I think a year before he got there,

::

baptized like two to three

::

hundred people in the

::

mission that seems like a

::

lot um i mean right yeah

::

right i mean a hundred and

::

fifty missionaries that's

::

that's two two convert

::

baptisms per missionary

::

that seems pretty good to

::

me yeah but then you

::

compare it to like south

::

america and the more you

::

know they're baptizing like

::

thousands honestly right right

::

But let's talk for just a

::

second about why that is.

::

Because in South America,

::

these are poorer people

::

than in Florida or anywhere

::

else in the United States, right?

::

And the church has...

::

some things to offer.

::

If you're in poverty,

::

the church offers some safety,

::

some security.

::

They do a lot of trickery with like,

::

come and have a big meal at

::

the church building.

::

If you join the church,

::

we'll take care of your family,

::

that kind of attitude.

::

Not to mention,

::

this is about your heritage.

::

This is about your ancestors,

::

which they're also pulling

::

back now saying that the

::

Book of Mormon isn't a

::

literal record of the

::

people in the Americas.

::

I spent my entire mission

::

telling people that it was

::

an actual record of the

::

people of the Americas.

::

And now what are they telling us?

::

No, it's not so much.

::

Yeah, they've dialed it back gradually.

::

The original introduction to

::

the Book of Mormon stated

::

unequivocally that the

::

Native Americans in this

::

country are descendants of

::

the Lamanites in the Book of Mormon.

::

Yeah.

::

That was the original introduction.

::

Then it became they're among

::

the descendants of the Lamanites,

::

and now they don't mention it at all.

::

Yeah.

::

Yeah,

::

I think it's like anywhere from two

::

to three hundred.

::

And then that first full

::

twelve months that he was there,

::

I think they got up to six hundred.

::

Wow.

::

So doubled it.

::

Yeah.

::

And then the next year,

::

I remember we set when I was still there,

::

we set a goal to hit.

::

I still remember the meeting exactly.

::

And we came up with a number

::

and it was ten fifty, a thousand fifty.

::

And by then I was gone, but they hit it.

::

They hit it that next year.

::

Wow.

::

Wow.

::

That seems like a lot.

::

I think it's a lot for an American mission,

::

you know?

::

Yeah, I mean, I think so, too.

::

But we were told it was the

::

biggest percentage increase

::

from year to year in North America.

::

Yeah.

::

Wow.

::

Well,

::

he was successful implementing all of

::

those things as far as the

::

numbers are concerned.

::

I'd be curious to know how

::

many of those converts were retained.

::

How long did they stay in the church?

::

How long did they pay their tithing?

::

Yeah, I got pretty lucky.

::

I think I baptized twenty

::

and I would say one was a family of

::

Five.

::

We baptized the whole family.

::

There was five.

::

And they went on, the kids went on to BYU.

::

They got married in the temple.

::

Still kind of talk to them occasionally,

::

but I don't think anyone else is.

::

any of the others and it's

::

just that narcissistic

::

abuse cycle like we were

::

their whole like we were

::

their whole world for a

::

while the missionaries and

::

the church and we would go

::

over there all the time and

::

then you know by five years

::

out of the mission i'm not

::

in contact with any of them

::

they've fallen away and you

::

know that's that's on me

::

you know i did that and um

::

the church yeah that's what

::

they call it when someone

::

stops attending church that

::

they've fallen away yes

::

Yeah.

::

Yeah.

::

It's the in-speak language

::

just always strikes me.

::

Whenever I recognize a

::

phrase that's uniquely Mormon, I'm like,

::

I have to call this out

::

because it's part of my deprogramming too,

::

so that I don't continue to use that,

::

those same phrases.

::

Yeah,

::

and it's really an interesting feeling.

::

Like this family, for example,

::

these are amazing people.

::

It was a really lucky thing.

::

The mom had already had

::

discussions previously

::

several years earlier.

::

They moved to this area,

::

and it just happened to be

::

the assistance area.

::

And so we got called that

::

she wanted to go talk to the missionaries,

::

and it was just a layup.

::

Like we didn't.

::

But we grew to love that family.

::

We went over there all the time.

::

And I still love them to this day.

::

And their kids are married in the temple.

::

And they've seen my stuff.

::

They know I resigned from the church.

::

I posted that stuff.

::

And I wonder what that's like.

::

And a part of me wants to

::

say I'm so sorry.

::

But...

::

You know,

::

some people have a great

::

experience and they do.

::

You can't discredit that.

::

And maybe that's what they

::

needed at the time.

::

And maybe, you know,

::

they absolutely love it.

::

And there are people out there that do.

::

I just, I fear that,

::

especially being a convert,

::

you're not told everything, you know.

::

right right and that and

::

we've talked about this

::

before you know i don't

::

think that um i i don't

::

think that the church is

::

all bad and i don't and i

::

do recognize that it is

::

really good for some people

::

um but you know i fight

::

with myself so much about

::

this because it's like when

::

you do find out that you've

::

been lied to or at the very least

::

that things have been kept

::

from you because whether or

::

not you believe that the

::

fifteen who lead the church

::

know everything or believe

::

that you know Joseph Smith

::

made it up or whatever

::

whatever wherever you are

::

on that spectrum just it's

::

an objective fact that that

::

the church leadership has

::

kept facts from members and

::

when you find that out it's

::

devastating you know and and

::

So while I don't want

::

anybody to go through a

::

faith crisis necessarily

::

because it was devastating to me,

::

I feel so much better on the other side.

::

My life is definitely better

::

on the other side.

::

I would want to know the truth.

::

So for me,

::

I guess that's the question to

::

ask is like, if the church was not true,

::

would you want to know?

::

A lot of them say no, right?

::

Is that what you said?

::

Yeah.

::

Yeah.

::

Yeah.

::

And there,

::

there are those personality

::

styles that are like, just don't tell me,

::

I don't want to know, like,

::

I'm happy where I am,

::

this is working for me.

::

It is existentially painful

::

to stare into the abyss, it really is.

::

So I completely understand

::

people who don't want to do it.

::

And I think I even

::

And the famous words are, you know,

::

even if it wasn't true,

::

I would still believe and live like this.

::

And I think I said that for sure,

::

because that's what that's

::

what it feels like.

::

But.

::

I don't.

::

When I found out it wasn't real,

::

it mattered.

::

I was like, no, I'm not staying.

::

Yeah, no, it's like, wait a second.

::

This whole time, I've been shaming myself.

::

I've been this other person.

::

because i set aside all

::

those parts of me that

::

didn't fit in mormonism so

::

having said all of that

::

about the fact that

::

religion is good for some

::

people even the mormon

::

church is good for some

::

people some people have a

::

good experience most

::

mormons are wonderful

::

beautiful people who are

::

just trying to do good in

::

the world at the same time

::

the mormon church has

::

actively harmed so many people.

::

There literally are people

::

who are no longer alive

::

because of their experience

::

in the Mormon church.

::

Their abuse is just rampant.

::

And this is one of the

::

reasons why we're having

::

this conversation is

::

because the Mormon church

::

teaches you how to

::

manipulate people in order

::

to get what you want.

::

And it also teaches you to cover up

::

the dark parts,

::

the shadow aspects of your

::

personality and to cover up

::

your sins because the

::

social pressure and the

::

consequences socially and

::

spiritually are so high.

::

The stakes are so

::

unbelievably high that

::

necessarily people are

::

going to lie about what's

::

really going on behind closed doors.

::

They're going to lie about

::

their dysfunctional relationships.

::

They're not going to admit

::

that they're abusers.

::

And I always say that any

::

culture society where perfectly normal,

::

developmentally normal

::

sexual expression is repressed,

::

it's going to come out

::

sideways and in dysfunctional ways.

::

And I think that's why there

::

is so much sexual abuse in the church.

::

And the reason it gets

::

covered up is because the

::

church leadership doesn't

::

want people to know how rampant it is.

::

You know,

::

it's so incongruous to me with

::

the early church where

::

Joseph Smith would

::

literally put people's

::

names in the Doctrine and Covenants,

::

you know,

::

and they would be rebuked for

::

the things that they were doing wrong.

::

He would stand up in a

::

meeting and he would say,

::

brother so-and-so needs to repent.

::

You know, I wish there was more of that,

::

as shameful as it is to

::

call people out in public that way.

::

It is shocking and

::

disgusting to me how many

::

abusers just move from

::

place to place to place to

::

place and never get held accountable,

::

you know?

::

that that part of the Mormon church,

::

that part of the culture is

::

so disgusting and so harmful.

::

And also just the treatment

::

of the LGBTQ community, you know,

::

the shaming and the shunning that happens,

::

you know,

::

where it says visitors welcome

::

on the outside, but on the inside,

::

if you're a trans person,

::

you have to have a safe

::

person go to the bathroom with you.

::

It's just,

::

I'm speechless sometimes

::

about what to even say.

::

You said you struggled.

::

I totally understand.

::

It's like, yes,

::

there are good people in the church,

::

but it's like the abuser.

::

It's literally an abusive organization.

::

That's a fact.

::

I don't,

::

you can try to argue with me on that,

::

but it's a fact and it's

::

hurting people and it's,

::

it's caused suicide.

::

It has caused misery.

::

It has caused how many, you know, uh,

::

we have a lot of sexual

::

things coming out now,

::

but how many have just

::

stayed silent and struggled

::

with it that we don't know about.

::

And so, okay,

::

let's put ourselves in the

::

church shoes for the true

::

church of Jesus.

::

And we find out all this stuff.

::

What do you do?

::

You know, you have to think, well,

::

they probably assumed, well,

::

we've got to cover this up

::

because if people find out

::

they'll leave the church and

::

And that'll ruin their salvation.

::

So maybe there's just a few bad apples,

::

but then

::

They don't even punish these people.

::

So it's like, what is going on here?

::

And are we afraid to punish them?

::

Because then it will get out.

::

And this is an abuser.

::

This is a lying,

::

narcissistic abuser who's

::

covering up the shit that they do.

::

People are always like, well,

::

it was fine for the time

::

for Joseph Smith to do that.

::

It was like, forget the time.

::

Are you okay with a God that

::

approves that?

::

Yeah.

::

And I think that's the

::

question that I ultimately

::

had to ask myself before I

::

examined truth claims was

::

if I were choosing a

::

religion for myself now,

::

now having come through

::

healing from all of the

::

abuse that I suffered,

::

is this what I would choose?

::

And the answer was no.

::

And the question for me now is,

::

is it possible for the Mormon church to,

::

to be a healthier organization?

::

Is it possible for Mormonism

::

to do it better,

::

to do it in a healthy way?

::

And the answer for me is no.

::

I'm the same way.

::

Because when you say...

::

they are an abuser.

::

You're talking about the church,

::

and we've had this conversation.

::

This is what I'm going to

::

continue to talk about all the time.

::

The Church of Jesus Christ

::

of Latter-day Saints

::

operates as a narcissist in society.

::

It is a narcissistic organization.

::

because of all of the traits

::

that they exhibit and exemplify.

::

They lie about who they are.

::

They have this veneer in public.

::

The billboard says one thing,

::

but on the back of the billboard,

::

it's full of filth and

::

disgusting abusers and horrible,

::

horrible stories for so many people.

::

So is it possible for

::

Mormonism to be healthy?

::

I would say no, because

::

it was founded by arguably

::

one of the most malignant

::

narcissists that ever existed.

::

You know, Joseph Smith,

::

i believe started making up

::

these religious ideas in

::

order to spare his mom from

::

suffering after the death

::

of his brother you know he

::

started talking about

::

heaven in the afterlife and

::

what god wants for us in an

::

effort to help his own

::

family right but married

::

with that was his treasure

::

digging and his desire for

::

you know,

::

power and control and to be seen

::

as someone special.

::

And I think he took it off the deep end.

::

And when you have a religion

::

that is founded in the

::

ideals of shame and secrecy,

::

and narcissism of like,

::

we're the one true church.

::

Joseph Smith said that he

::

literally saw God and Jesus Christ.

::

What is more grandiose or

::

narcissistic than that?

::

To say that God came to you

::

and told you that all the

::

churches on the earth were wrong.

::

And that you are the one who

::

is going to restore the

::

true gospel of Jesus Christ.

::

What is more grandiose or

::

narcissistic than that?

::

When it's founded on that,

::

when its roots are in narcissism,

::

is it possible for it to be healthy ever?

::

I don't think so.

::

And I see all these, you know,

::

even ex-Mormons who are like, you know,

::

make these changes and dah, dah, dah.

::

And I get it.

::

That's great.

::

You know,

::

at least if we are stuck with

::

this organization and

::

corporation on the earth,

::

let's at least make it

::

tolerable where people,

::

all marginalized people feel safe.

::

That definitely needs to happen.

::

But I'm with you and like,

::

there's nothing they could do.

::

Outside of saying, sorry,

::

it's all bullshit.

::

Here is a great spiritual way to live.

::

And we're sorry, you know, no, no, no.

::

Yeah.

::

Let's, let's improve it.

::

So people feel safe.

::

So the abuse gets at least less, you know,

::

let's try to put some safeguards here.

::

So we don't go flying off the mountain.

::

If we have to go down this dangerous road.

::

Yeah.

::

So I always try to fantasize

::

a little bit about what it

::

would look like if the

::

Mormon church didn't exist.

::

And the thought experiment always comes to,

::

you know,

::

we're going to put something

::

else in its place.

::

You know,

::

there's always going to be religion.

::

There's always going to be

::

unhealthy religion.

::

And there's always going to

::

be the need for religion.

::

So, you know, get rid of, you know,

::

cut off one head off the

::

hydra and another one is

::

going to grow back, right?

::

Yeah.

::

But in my little fantasy world,

::

what I think is like, okay,

::

the truth gets exposed.

::

One of the quorum of the twelve,

::

let's say Uchtdorf is going

::

to be the hero.

::

He seems to be a little bit more,

::

I don't know, outspoken.

::

He got demoted, right?

::

Maybe there's a chance that he's, you know,

::

got a little bit of more

::

nuanced thinking or something like that.

::

And he seems to be just a really kind man.

::

I could be totally wrong about that.

::

But let's say that Uchtdorf

::

stands up in conference one

::

Sunday and goes rogue and decides to say,

::

you know, I've been in the vault.

::

I've seen the archives.

::

Here's the proof, right?

::

You know,

::

there's a gasp from the general

::

conference center.

::

You know, some people would leave,

::

some people would stay, right?

::

Eventually,

::

I think the majority of the

::

membership would leave, right?

::

But the church has more money than God.

::

So I think probably like the

::

family members of the

::

existing leadership would

::

probably ensure that that

::

leadership continues,

::

that the money gets passed

::

down to those generations

::

and their sick little

::

family lines can just go and, you know,

::

be comfortable with that

::

money for the rest of their lives.

::

And the church structure goes away.

::

So at least people don't

::

continue to get abused

::

within this structure anymore.

::

I don't know.

::

It's a fun thought exercise.

::

Uh, golly,

::

I just started smiling when you were like,

::

imagine a world without the church,

::

honestly.

::

But yeah, you're right.

::

They would, all that money has got to,

::

they would probably try to

::

do something with that money.

::

Well, they own so much property, you know?

::

Yes.

::

So they do.

::

They do.

::

I just,

::

the corporation's always going to exist.

::

Right.

::

And they expect

::

accountability from their members,

::

going to the bishop, all that stuff.

::

But you can tell the

::

leadership of the church is

::

not accountable for anything.

::

They don't take

::

responsibility for anything.

::

They don't apologize.

::

That's what ticks me off the most.

::

And I hope by bringing this

::

up and talking about the

::

core tenants of narcissism

::

that we can start to,

::

people can start to piece together like,

::

yeah, I guess they don't apologize.

::

They kind of go back on their word.

::

They never say, well,

::

we did say this and we're

::

sorry about that.

::

We're actually going to say this now.

::

No,

::

it is all PR perfectly to just make us

::

think we never taught that.

::

We never taught that you

::

were going to get your own planet.

::

And you're like, yeah, excuse me.

::

It's still actively teaching it,

::

by the way.

::

Jeffrey Holland just

::

released a video where he literally said,

::

we believe that we're gods in embryo.

::

So do do your own

::

intellectual exercise with

::

what that actually means

::

and realize that it does mean something.

::

If you're a god and embryo,

::

eventually you're going to

::

have a planet over which you preside,

::

where your spirit children

::

are going to go through the

::

same thing that we're going

::

through right now, which, by the way,

::

is the teaching of multiple

::

mortal probations.

::

For all the people who'd

::

like to tell me that's not a thing.

::

But I was thinking about this this morning,

::

getting ready for the interview.

::

if we talked about red flags

::

in a relationship red flags

::

right like you're dating

::

somebody and you're you're

::

on the lookout for some red

::

flags a a partner who says

::

oh i don't apologize if you

::

were dating somebody and

::

you you called them out on

::

something you're like hey

::

um you know last time we

::

were together you said this

::

it sounds like now you're

::

saying something different

::

And you have proof, right?

::

And they say, well, I don't apologize.

::

Would you go out on another

::

date with that person?

::

Absolutely not.

::

You know,

::

would you continue that relationship?

::

I just think it's,

::

if you look at the church

::

as a relationship, because it is,

::

it's your spiritual relationship.

::

There are a lot of red flags there.

::

Yeah, to me, like,

::

I've talked to people who are like,

::

questioning is this?

::

Do you think this person is a narcissist?

::

Can they be healed?

::

And the number one thing

::

that's really obvious a

::

telltale is can they be accountable and

::

And not only that,

::

but and take responsibility.

::

So church, huge red flag there.

::

But also it has to be

::

followed up with with action.

::

So you could say, yes, I'm so sorry.

::

I'm so sorry.

::

I will change.

::

I will change.

::

But if there is no change,

::

that's still abuse and

::

that's still not taking

::

accountability and responsibility.

::

And the church is even the

::

church hasn't even taken that step to say,

::

I take responsibility.

::

I'm sorry.

::

Right.

::

Change.

::

And we'll do this.

::

They don't even bother with that shit.

::

They're just like, yeah, well,

::

we're just going to do

::

whatever the hell we want.

::

And you're just going to take it.

::

And this is one of the

::

things that I tell people

::

all the time when you're

::

dealing with a narcissistic

::

person or a manipulative or

::

controlling person,

::

their ability to change or

::

to heal changes.

::

is directly related to their

::

ability to be self aware,

::

and their ability to repair

::

after conflict and their ability to,

::

to look at a behavior and say, Oh, yeah,

::

that was that was harmful.

::

So I always tell people like

::

pay attention to how they respond,

::

when you withdraw,

::

pay attention to how they respond,

::

when you ask for change, or when you

::

Call out a behavior that

::

that's harmful because a

::

person who's self-aware,

::

who's willing to change,

::

who wants to heal,

::

who wants a healthy

::

relationship is going to

::

respond in a positive way.

::

Thank you for pointing that out to me.

::

You know, let's work on that.

::

And a person who is a

::

narcissist or a manipulator

::

or an abuser or controlling person.

::

They're going to get angry.

::

They're going to immediately

::

put up a wall.

::

It's immediately going to be

::

a defensive position.

::

And a lot of times they'll

::

even turn it back around on you,

::

which is what the church

::

does with ex-Mormons, by the way.

::

Whenever we call out the church,

::

they flip it around and they say, well,

::

you must not have been faithful enough.

::

You're not a true believer.

::

You're a lazy learner.

::

You didn't do your research.

::

And now you're just angry

::

and you're just trying to,

::

you have an ax to grind

::

against the church and you

::

can't leave us alone.

::

you chose to be offended and

::

now you're just trying to

::

destroy a perfectly good, you know,

::

church and you're

::

disrespecting me because

::

these are sacred beliefs.

::

I freaking hate that.

::

I'm like, I don't care if they're sacred,

::

they're abusive.

::

Okay.

::

Right.

::

Right.

::

And I hope that this

::

conversation can start that because,

::

it's, it's backed by experts now.

::

Like it's known that these

::

are what narcissists do.

::

This is why it's harmful.

::

This is why you feel crazy.

::

This is why it's abusive.

::

It's spiritual abuse.

::

It's emotional abuse,

::

which as you've mentioned is,

::

can be just as bad as a physical abuse.

::

So they're going to gaslight

::

us on that too.

::

And I'm now in these comments that,

::

And, you know,

::

because I'll be watching an

::

ex-Mormon thing and

::

there'll be a Mormon in the comments.

::

And I made it a point to to say, hey, man,

::

and I used your analogy.

::

I said, hey, imagine, you know,

::

about the abuser.

::

And you continue to see this

::

abuser on the street lying

::

to people when they abused me.

::

They hurt me really bad.

::

And I think we should look

::

at that because it might be

::

a way to get people to

::

understand instead of just

::

the arguing back and forth.

::

It's just like, this is my perspective.

::

This is what happened.

::

And this is the abuse I suffered.

::

And they're continuing to do

::

that to others.

::

And so it's really hard to

::

just stand by and watch.

::

And his reply was like,

::

what are you even talking about?

::

And I was just like, okay, dude,

::

I can't do it.

::

um yeah yeah yeah it's it's

::

very obvious and i hope

::

this conversation keeps

::

going um because everyone

::

you know narcissism it's

::

like a buzzword it's like

::

oh ah well organizations

::

can be narcissists and um

::

yes you know i i

::

I my former partner,

::

I know we talk about her a lot,

::

but she she did a lot for

::

for helping me see things.

::

And she knew a lot about the

::

church because I explained

::

my experience and she was

::

so fascinated by it and

::

leaving it and how the church abused me.

::

And this is this is hard to say.

::

And she was like,

::

You did the same thing to me.

::

Hmm.

::

And I don't think any Mormon

::

wants to do that.

::

I don't think they want to

::

be taught how to be a

::

narcissist and then hurt others.

::

So that's my experience,

::

people of the church.

::

Thank you so much for just who you are,

::

just for sharing this and

::

for being willing to be vulnerable.

::

That must have been devastating for you.

::

Yeah, yeah, it was.

::

Plain and simple.

::

And it was eye-opening.

::

But that can lead to healing, right?

::

That can lead to fixing it.

::

And maybe people can start

::

to see that about the church.

::

And maybe it can be less

::

damaging and abusive.

::

Yeah.

::

So listen up, brethren.

::

You old farts, listen to us.

::

We're not making this up.

::

Yeah.

::

You know.

::

I'm trying to heal.

::

I'm sorry.

::

I'm a healer in process here.

::

Yeah,

::

this was our experience and it was real.

::

And, um,

::

I know that there are so

::

many members of the church

::

out there who they feel

::

threatened by what we say

::

because it challenges their

::

entire worldview.

::

And I know how scary that is.

::

And I know it's one of the

::

reasons why so many Mormons double,

::

triple down,

::

quadruple down on what they

::

believe when their beliefs get challenged,

::

because it's really scary

::

to consider the alternative, right?

::

We went through that and it was scary,

::

right?

::

You went through that.

::

I went through that.

::

It is not a fun thing.

::

It's not something you want to do.

::

Yeah.

::

So I get it.

::

I understand.

::

I understand how scary it is.

::

Just at the bottom, at the very,

::

very core of it.

::

If you can't look at the

::

church and its teachings,

::

if you can't look at the

::

harm that the church does in society,

::

just don't do any harm yourself.

::

Just be a genuine

::

Christ-like person with the

::

motivation that you just

::

want to do good in the

::

world and you want to leave

::

the world a better place

::

than you found it.

::

And just do that for your own life,

::

for your own children.

::

Do the most kind and loving thing.

::

Actually consider what Jesus

::

would do when you're

::

operating under the

::

direction of the corporation.

::

Because that's what it is.

::

At the end of the day,

::

it is a corporation.

::

It's not even a healthy organization.

::

And I don't think that if

::

Jesus Christ came to the earth today...

::

that he would even recognize

::

any of the things that he

::

taught in what the

::

corporation is doing today.

::

So that's my bottom line.

::

It's like,

::

if you really do claim to be a

::

follower of Jesus Christ,

::

then emulate him more than

::

you do the corporation.

::

Yes.

::

if you believe in Jesus and

::

all that Jesus over corporation,

::

I think that's a great,

::

great way to put it.

::

And we're going to have to

::

start coming up with,

::

with ideas of how we can

::

make this better and more tolerable.

::

And it,

::

and it might have to come from us

::

and then they hear about it.

::

And I think what you just

::

said is a perfect example of that.

::

Like it's easy to get on

::

here and call stuff out and, and be angry,

::

but

::

What could be done?

::

What could be fixed?

::

And it's hard because, you know,

::

the leadership at the top,

::

they're not necessarily going to listen,

::

but I'm assuming they know

::

who John Dillon is, you know?

::

Yes, they do.

::

Yeah.

::

And that's, you know,

::

that's what sometimes has to be done.

::

Yeah, I agree.

::

And I think for me personally,

::

the direction that I keep heading is that,

::

okay,

::

I can't do anything to change the

::

corporation.

::

They're never going to

::

change because they are so

::

narcissistic that they

::

don't think there's

::

anything wrong with them.

::

They don't think they need to change,

::

you know?

::

And so for me,

::

what I would like to do is

::

just engage in those

::

activities that I think are

::

going to help people.

::

So having these

::

conversations as part of that, but also

::

I mentioned during our last interview,

::

the Church of Korihor,

::

that they're out there, you know,

::

handing out blankets and

::

doing good things in the community.

::

And so I want to do more of that.

::

I want to affiliate more

::

with organizations who are doing that.

::

And I want to be a safe

::

space and a safe place.

::

person for people who are

::

undergoing any kind of

::

faith crisis or who are

::

coming out of any abusive situation.

::

I want to help heal the

::

people who've been hurt by

::

the organizations.

::

And so I'm just going to put

::

a plea out there for any of

::

you who are watching to

::

just address the audience, to just say,

::

thank you for being here,

::

especially if you've

::

watched all the way to the end of this.

::

You know,

::

thank you for at least listening

::

to the conversation.

::

You know,

::

step two is share it with somebody.

::

Send the video.

::

Share the video with somebody.

::

Go follow Jonathan on his Instagram,

::

TikTok.

::

Go follow his podcast.

::

subscribe to the channel.

::

Get it out there in the algorithm.

::

What we're learning about

::

the algorithm is that

::

YouTube doesn't push the

::

videos out there.

::

They actually pull the

::

videos for the user of what

::

the user is interested in.

::

So fill your feed with more

::

conversations like this

::

about people who are

::

leaving unhealthy

::

organizations and

::

relationships so that more people will

::

learn and understand the

::

markers of manipulation and

::

control so that they won't be victimized.

::

If you can just do that, like, subscribe,

::

and share.

::

That's all.

::

Great.

::

Greatness.

::

She's got amazing things to say.

::

And this is how it has to start.

::

And this is how it has to go.

::

And Megan,

::

thank you for inspiring me to

::

get more out there and speak more.

::

And

::

You know,

::

to all of the missionaries who

::

served in my mission, you know who I am.

::

And I'm sorry for sometimes

::

being an arrogant prick.

::

And I'm sorry for pushing you.

::

And, yeah, it was the programming.

::

And I'm deep.

::

Just please forgive me.

::

Yeah,

::

I'm sorry for what I said when I was

::

Mormon.

::

It's a real thing.

::

Especially on my mission.

::

Yeah.

::

I'm sorry.

::

Well, Jonathan, as always,

::

I could sit here and talk to you all day.

::

Thank you so much for the

::

conversation and for being who you are.

::

And I look forward to

::

everything that you're

::

getting ready to put out there.

::

I'm excited for it.

::

Thank you so much.

::

Thank you as always for having me.

::

I love these conversations.

::

Love what you're doing.

::

I hope you're proud of yourself.

::

I hope you're giving yourself some, I mean,

::

you're a big deal and

::

you're making a difference.

::

And I hope people in the

::

church can watch this.

::

And there's things that can

::

be done to mitigate abuse.

::

Let's start there.

::

Start with the kids.

::

Yeah.

::

Let's not hurt any more kids.

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