Mary Van Geffen is an international parenting coach for overwhelmed parents of "strong-willed & spicy children." She helps parents to gain the confidence and skills to choose gentle, respectful parenting. She joins host Matt Popovits to discuss how to parent when you don’t feel as though you received the best roadmap for success from your family of origin, parenting in a pandemic, as well as how to deal with parental guilt. It’s a powerful and timely conversation for parents, grandparents, and children alike.

The following program is sponsored by evangelical life ministries.

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Hey friends, welcome to the program. My name is Matt Popovits. And with me today is Mary van Geffin. Mary is an international parenting coach for overwhelmed moms of strong, strong willed and spicy children. And she helps parents gain the confidence and the skills to choose gentle and respectful parenting, especially if they weren't raised that way. Mary, welcome to the program. It's great to be with us.

Good to be here.

So, so Mary, for those who aren't familiar with, the work that you do, uh, explain to us what is a parenting coach and, and why might people need one?

Well, the same way you need a coach for when you're learning a new skill like sales presentations, or how to kick a soccer ball in the right place in the goal, you sometimes need people to come up alongside you and hold a space where you can really focus on something. And so parenting coach is just somebody who, for me, at least I'm a cross between a certified life coach and a certified simplicity parenting counselor. And we just get on the phone and you share a specific thing. That's stealing your piece and we workshop it. And a lot of it is me pulling out your wisdom because I don't want you to be a parent like me. I don't have the exact same kids you have or the background. So it's a highly kind of personal interchange, um, where somebody can finally sit down and be strategic because we spend so much time thinking about our mission for our companies and our ministries. But what about your mission for your family? And we also, what I find is a lot of moms, um, are used to getting feedback in the corporate world. We know if we're doing a good job, we've got milestones. We don't really have those in parenting. So having somebody ahead of you on the game, who can speak life into you and give you some specific parenting skills and communication tips is, is just really life giving

You, you, you mentioned drawing wisdom out of the parent. Do, do you feel like, like most parents are actually equipped with the wisdom to do this the right way? It's just a matter of kind of discovering some of that.

Yes. And a lot of us, which is kind of our topic today are parenting without a map, we're trying to be a positive, respectful sort of gentle parent. And we didn't grow up with that. Mm-hmm so we can't really manufacture behaviors out of nowhere if we haven't seen them happen, but we do have like longings and things that God puts on our heart. So I love asking the question. Okay. It's, you know, especially with a frazzle kind of overwhelmed parent saying, okay, let's cut to 15 years from now. Your child is 20. They are driving home for Thanksgiving and they are on pens and needles. So excited to get to see you. And their friend is like, what's your deal? You're so energized. And they ask what's your parent, like thinking about how do you want your child to answer that in 10, 15 years, to describe you to describe the home they grew up in that is within every one of us, that's a wisdom of knowing what feels good to be in and what feels yucky. And, and we feel that we just sometimes don't know how to fix it. So yes, wisdom because one person might be like, I want it to be fun and independent and somebody else is like, I want it to be a nurturing, um, collaborative space. And those are all like legit. It just depends on what you want and what's right for the personalities of the kids in your home.

So, so a parent may very well have a whole lot of wisdom to give, uh, uh, the right heart, the right, the right, uh, attitude towards parenting, even perhaps, but they just don't have like the, the roadmap as you put it to, to get to this, this desired outcome that they have. And, and I love what you said there of picture the future and let's work backward, right? Let's picture the kind of relationship we wanna have with our children and then work backward and, and, and build that plan toward it. Am I, am I kind of on the right page here?

You're totally right. And that's why it actually works really nice with, in tandem with a therapist, almost like a relay race, because therapy is looking back at what happened in the past, what trauma took place that's now kind of bleeding into the present and coaching is about where do you wanna go in the future and what needs to change in the present to get there?

Yeah. So, you know, you mentioned that that's, uh, apart from crafting our own plan for parenting, we just kind of use what we inherited, what we experienced in our families of origin. You know, even if we don't want to, it's kind of our only experience we can work from right. Is, is the home we grew up in. So, so how, how, how do you help a parent who maybe wants to do something different from what they experienced in their own home growing up yet, yet doesn't want to be disrespectful to the, the parents that they have, who are still an active participant in their life. Uh, I imagine that that's a, that's a place attention for some parents. I wanna have a, a different relationship with my children than maybe my parents had with me. I wanna use some different approaches. Then my parents used with me yet in doing so. I don't wanna alienate the parents that I have as I raise my own. Uh, that seems to be a point of tension for some parents, right?

Yeah. It, it really is. And in some cases it can actually sort of paralyze a parent. I, I love what Glen and Doyle says, and it's, it's not a, it's not gonna, um, give anybody Rosie hearts, but she says, right now, you're being required to choose between remaining an obedient daughter or a responsible mother. And sometimes the obedient daughter has to give way to allow for a responsible parent. Sometimes you can't do both, but in the question you asked before, I could assist them in how they want to sort of manage their own parent and honor their own parent. I would ask, like, what do you first want for yourself? Because so often we know what we don't want. Well, I don't wanna be made to feel like that, or I don't wanna be hit, or I don't wanna be yelled at okay, but that's not visionary.

That's not how a leader moves forward. You have to know what you do want. So sometimes they can articulate it. And so for me, if they needed like, like stop asking me what I want, I don't know what I want. Tell me what I want, which is sometimes how people show up. I would say, let's go for three things. Effective parenting is calm. It's kind and it's firm. And if we can get all three of those things, calm kind and firm, your, your 90% of your work is done. And usually one of those is, feels almost impossible to us. Maybe I can stay razor calm and I will be firm, but there's no kindness in this. Right. Um, I will make sure you do what I said, and I bring fear there. So that's not working or maybe I'm super calm and super kind, but you walk all over me cuz I'm not firm. So that's a great place to start. If you don't know what positive sort of respectful parenting looks like, but I would love to hear from you. What, how do you honor a parent that, you know, to use like the common vernacular feels a little toxic, like they're going, wow, don't let him get away with that. And if you, if you were my kid and those kind of comments, what does it look like to honor a parent that isn't really growing your own parenting?

Well, I think, you know, so we, we start with the idea that this, this whole idea of, of honoring your parent is for those of us who have a Christian background, um, uh, uh, an essential one because it's, it's tied to these, these 10 commandments that, uh, that are so central for people with this, with this Christian worldview. And so it's, so it's not an option for us to try and honor our parents if you have a Christian background. Um, if you, if you, if you, um, ha have have faith in, uh, in, in, in Jesus, it's something that is given to us as something that's really expected of us to honor your parents. Now, we often, I, I think we often feel caught because we, we mean that we think that that means only ever praising, um, only ever celebrating, uh, only ever, um, kind of leaping, uh, kind of, uh, pouring applause upon our parents, but that, but that's only really one side of the honoring equation.

Um, I think what it means, um, in this context is, um, you sh you show honor to parents who are dishonorable in some aspect by, by not a, by not giving them the opportunity to, to live out some of their maybe dysfunctional or dishonorable habits upon you, or to pass them off to your children. And so a way in which you honor someone, an aspect of honoring someone is not allowing them to be their worst self with you or with other people that you care about. And, and you actually show them honor by not allowing them to, to do that dysfunctional thing anymore, or not allowing yourself to pass on that dysfunctional thing. Now, the tough part with parents is that they, they, they might, they might not see that as an honoring thing, but, but, but that's okay,

But Jesus's our judge, right? Jesus will decide. And, and we're doing it please. The Lord, not necessarily to please our parents who I like to think of it. And I think it's very similar. It's like at some point I'm gonna go up to heaven and my soul is gonna meet my mom's soul and she's gonna be like, oh, you honored me so well. And the kindness that you brought to my grandchildren, even if I wasn't in a place to give you that you did the work you healed and were able to give it to my children. Thank you for honoring me. That's why I like to look at it. Do you mind that? And

You, of course, well, and you know, in the, in the grand scheme of eternity, when we all have unveiled faces, right, and we can, we can see things clearly, you know, we have to believe that that, uh, that our parents and, uh, you know, all the people around us will, will, we will, will be able to see the, the good things and the healthy things and the choices that we've made and, and, and celebrate those and respect us for those. But I think this side of eternity sometimes honoring someone means not allowing their dishonorable aspects of their life to be, to be done against you or passed on by you. And so just because you're making different choices that might, that might, um, uh, that might go against your, your family of origin and, and, and what your experience was, or might, might in some cases be, be offensive or bothersome to your parents, because it's just so different from what they did with you.

It doesn't necessarily mean you're being dishonorable you're, it doesn't necessarily mean rather that you're dishonoring them. In fact, you could be trying to uphold them and honor them by saying, look, I'm, I'm not gonna let this, um, this negative thing that you gave to me, uh, be passed on by me. Uh, and so that, that's actually, that's actually an honoring thing. I, uh, I, I believe, and so it's about setting up some of those setting up some of those boundaries. Now, now one of the things that parents might get caught in today is as they try to do things differently, they may get confronted by a, a grandparent who doesn't agree with your parenting style. Um, how does, how does a parent who's doing things differently, have a healthy conversation with their parents as their parents interject their opinions and, and thoughts into what you're doing with your kids?

Hmm. Well, that's funny just yesterday, I had a grandparent reach out to me for a coaching session and what she wanted to talk about was how she could get her children to do better with their kid. And I had to say, let me talk to the, if the parents wanna work with me, I'm all for it. But as a grandparent, your responsibility or your job now is to sit back and en enjoy and delight in that grandchild. How would I advise somebody to set boundaries with their own parent or to, with their grandparents? I would remind them that I think like you've read boundaries by, is it Henry McCloud

Out in towns? It, yeah,

Yeah, yeah. Famous book. But what I don't like about that is sometimes it uses the idea of a, a fence makes good neighbors, right? We just put the fence up and they'll be on their side. We'll be on theirs. I don't think it's that way with people that are really intimate with us. I think we set a brick, they walk over it, we set another brick, they walk over it and we keep establishing our boundaries. And so it's not a one and done conversation. I think just being aware of that, you didn't do something wrong if you, um, if you set a boundary with your parent and they still step over it. But I also wanna say that we can, we can relax a little bit here because our children can have a very different relationship with our parent than we did. They aren't looking for their sense of self from their grandparent, the way we were.

Um, they're not, um, fixated on having their, their basic needs met from, from that grandparent. So in some ways we can, we can, we can relax our nervous system just a little bit. Do you know what I mean by that? Like, um, we can honor that our parent is going to have their own relationship with that child. Now, if it feels like it's negative and it, and it's, um, impinging on our, our, the way that we want to set up our home, then there, there may need to be a conversation or there may need to be something that you repeat over and over again. One of my favorite, um, techniques is green light red light, and that is red light. What's not okay. And green light, what is okay. And you just say the same thing every time. So, um, Hey mom, that's disrespectful talk.

Um, you can ask him specifically to get off the couch and he will, so, oh, Hey mom, that's disrespectful talk. You can ask him to, um, bring his plate into the kitchen and if he doesn't, I'll help bring it. So you're just naming that thing. That's not okay in your home. And the green light is, and here's what is, okay. You can ask him directly mm-hmm , uh, but we can't really change somebody else. Yeah. We can only, we can, we have to know what our circle of control is versus our circle of concern. We sure wish that they would maybe, um, be more positive and gentle and affirming, but we can't make that. We can just make sure that our home is going to be positive, gentle, and affirming.

Yeah. And, and, and just what you articulated there, the, the, the red light green light scenario, that that is a wonderful example of, of, of not only, um, putting up a, a boundary to help that relationship between you and your children and your children and their grandparent flourish. But I, I think was a great example of, of honoring your parent as you parent, because you are, you are helping them be the best version of themself in so far as you can control it, uh, which is not very much, but you're helping them be the best version of them, of their self. But then also not just putting up that, that red, that, that, that red light that says, don't do this, but you're also empowering them to say, but here, here's what I, I do need you to do. And here's how to be a great grandparent right now in this situation, because that is what I want from you.

And, and so that really is honoring of helping them step away from the thing that's not helping the relationship because you want it to be a great relationship, but then also giving them that resource to say, here's how to be the most helpful, positive grandparent that, that we can have right now. And so I think you articulate a great example of what it means to, to, to try to try and live that out. Um, are, are you finding that right now with, with all that's going on in the world with pandemic, that that parenting is, is more difficult right now that it has been in other seasons for people?

Oh my gosh. Yes. There's no breaks. Um, it feels like we've taken on this whole other role of being a teacher and, um, keeping the education like going at the same rate, which is impossible. And we're all holding down, extra, you know, additional jobs and, oh, it's the most stress that anyone's ever had. And if anyone's listening to this and has somehow not become fatigued with pandemic parenting advice, let me just say the most important job you have right now, the thing that's going to decide whether or not this gets encoded as a time of trauma, or just a blip on the radar of their childhood is your connection with that child. So if you maintain a healthy connection with them, even if they fall behind in school, even if they're social skills just don't develop the way they should have, cuz they're not with other human beings, their age, um, as long as they feel like you enjoy them and you are, you're calm and you're centered and you're okay and you're healthy, it's all gonna be fine.

The important thing right now is connection with the child. Tell me, what do you mean by that?

Like a choice. Um, I can either control or I can connect. And we either can't always have both at the same time so I can either make sure he gets on that call right now. Even though he's telling me he can't do it, you know, the, the zoom call or I can connect and find out what's going on with him. And one is, we're gonna, one is a white knuckling pushing through. And the other is a little bit of releasing and submission to my child's having a soul fever. And it makes total sense. The whole world is upside down. I can slow down here and show up for them. So connection like neurologically, it looks like our eyes are meeting I'm nodding. There's a slight smile on my face, which is very different than, Hey, make sure you, you grab that, um, coat before we go and get your shirt on. That's not connecting. Um, and so it does require slowing down, but the most effective discipline starts with self-regulation of the parent. So I can give you all kinds of tips, but if you are completely stressed out, not caring for yourself and telling yourself how awful you are, none of the techniques will work because the energy you're bringing to it is scary. And, um, not healthy.

Well, you, you, you men, you mentioned the word, you mentioned the word discipline. Um, what are, uh, a couple of, of, of, of positive discipline techniques? You, you talked about connection. Uh, what else could, what else could you say about just positive discipline techniques? Cause that's something that's so tough for all parents.

I got a bunch of them, but I, I do just wanna underscore that. What is discipline it's teaching? So people will say, gimme some discipline. And what they really want is like, tell me some consequences or how, how long should a time out be? I don't really get into all that because discipline is thinking about what's the behavior I wanna teach and teaching it. So a couple tips on that is identify what you want, not what you don't want. A lot of us are saying, don't touch my sofa with those dirty hands. And we're actually creating an image in the child's mind of them touching our sofa with their dirty hands. And we gave it to them. So pause for a moment and decide what you want. Oh, put those hands straight up and follow me here to the sink. We're gonna wash 'em there.

I told you what I wanted instead of what I don't want. Um, instead of don't you run cross this pool, it's Willow walk, walk slowly. So it's saying what you want, not what you don't want. That's one positive. Another is the Doover leave your child like sparkling for you. Don't end on how dare you. Why'd you do that? Don't do it again. Have them come and do it again. And that even re relates to like safety stuff that people usually say, well, that's what I reserve spanking for. If a child runs across the street, you go get the ch, even though they're excited to get to school, it's inconvenient, but you go get that child. You come back and you say, let's try that again. How do we cross the street? And they look both ways and you cross and you go, that's my boy.

You are great at crossing the street. We did a do over and there you end. Uh, like I'll never forget. My kid was my youngest. Who's now 14 was 10 at the time. And we went into Chipotle and he was so excited to eat at, ran through door open, almost slammed on my face. So I just stood outside of Chipotle, like a crazy person. He stood in line till he got up to the front, started ordering and realized the money wasn't around. Right. And he comes out and he's like, mom. And I said, oh, I'm waiting for my son to hold the door for me. And he opened it up and I ignored the attitude. That's not what I was teaching right now. He opened it up and held it. And I walked in like a queen and said, thank you. It is good to have a son. We, he never didn't open the door for me again, because he kind of knew we're gonna do it anyway. So let's do it right the first time. But also let's leave you feeling elated and respected rather than deflated and put down. Yeah. Yeah. So those two that's identify what you want and practice the do over.

That's fantastic. I'm as, as a parent of a 15 year old and a six year old, I am, I'm on the side of the call of this conversation. Just taking some notes. Those are really, really helpful. Um, we've got just a couple minutes left. Um, and, and with that time, I, I wanna focus on something that I think a lot of parents struggle with at the very least, you know, me at times as a parent. Uh, and that's the, just the notion of guilt. There is, uh, oftentimes, uh, a feeling of guilt that comes with parenting. As you, as you take stock of all the things that are not going well, or all the times, you feel like you messed it up as a parent, or you look at the struggles of your child and you say, well, if I'd done better, maybe they wouldn't have wrestled with this or struggled with that. Or you look at the, uh, say it, we've talked a lot about the relationship between yourself and, and your parents, their grandparents, and you think, well, that's, that's kind of a mess or that's problematic or dysfunctional. And the, the end result of it is a whole lot of guilt that parents walk around with. Uh, what's your word to guilt ridden parents.

Mm. Well, first off who's doing the talking cuz that's not what God's saying. Right? So does God condemn you? Does God want you to know over and over again? How you're not enough and you're not doing it right. That's just not, that's not a, that's not God's voice. So, and I'm, I'm not even gonna go so far as to say it's a satanic voice. I'm gonna say, it's your old programming. It's your self talk that is outdated and doesn't work anymore. And it's usually it reminds you of that horror movie. I don't know if you, if you're old enough to have seen it where the lady says, um, Hey operator, can you 9 1, 1 there's if somebody keeps calling me and I, and I'm getting scared. And they said, well, you should be scared because the call's coming from inside the house, get out of there.

And a lot of times that guilt is coming from our, our ourselves. We're saying it same with judgment. When you feel like other people are judging you. So it's about stopping yourself and hearing the voice that says you didn't do a good job. You're screwing this up. And like, is that helpful? It's kind of like, no, thank you. Let me choose what the holy spirit would tell me, which is every day, the sun, you know, rises again. And it's a fresh new Dawn and you get to choose who you wanna be and start over again, but really notice what, what is that inner critic saying? And choose a more, um, Sage reaction and voice. Even if you have to write out something like I am a masterpiece of God, I am enough. Me showing up is enough and rewire some of those synapses that kind of have a groove of, oh, I'm really screwing this up. It's not helpful. I get it. It's automatic. But, um, we have to sort of rewire our brains.

Yeah. I, I, I, I really appreciate the idea of recognizing the story we're telling ourselves. That's, that's making us feel like we're, we're covered with guilt and shame and for people of faith to, to tell ourselves the story of God, which is that we are chosen, loved forgiven redeemed, and able to, and, and able to live the life that God's called us to live with with purpose and beauty.

What song is that you are chosen in not for sake. And I am who he said that, listen to that song. If you're feeling like, oh, I'm screwing up his parenting, turn that on full blast and receive what God really says about you,

Mary man. Geffin where can people learn more about, uh, the work that you do and the resources that you have?

Well, they can come onto Instagram. If they're into that. And I'm giving a, a free parenting tip every day, a new tip, or they can go to simplicity, parenting with mary.com and anyone who hears the sound of my voice is welcome to a free 30 minute coaching session. And I don't sell you on anything. We literally just get to work on one thing. You wanna find more peace, set, a skill. You wanna learn a situation that just feels yucky in your house, or maybe a dislike for a child that's just too spicy for you right now. So, um, reach out to me and I would love to help you

Mayor van Giffin. Thank you for being on the show. I look forward to more conversations with you, uh, about parenting and, uh, and, uh, and, and anything else that the Lord puts on the, on the docket for us. Thanks so much for being on the program.

It was a pleasure.

And thank you for listening. We hope you join us this week. Same time, same station. Thanks guys.

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