Dr. Jennifer Berry doesn't just talk about STEM—she redefines how student see themselves in it. As a leading voice in inclusive STEM education, Dr. Berry champions a powerful idea: STEM identity is not something students are born with—it's something they build. As the CEO of SmartLab, she is dedicated to bridging the gap between today's classrooms and tomorrow's workforce.

Takeaways:

• Engaging students in hands-on learning experiences fosters both problem-solving skills and resilience in the face of failure.
• The integration of community involvement in educational ecosystems significantly enhances students' learning experiences and future opportunities.
• STEM identity is developed through numerous 'aha moments' that help students connect concepts meaningfully and deepen their understanding.
• Creating customized learning environments is essential for effective project-based learning, catering to diverse student needs and maximizing their potential.
• Students must be encouraged to embrace mistakes as vital learning opportunities that contribute to their growth and adaptability.
• Empowerment and resilience are crucial qualities that educators should foster in students to prepare them for challenges in a rapidly changing world.

Chapters:

• 00:30 - The Importance of Hands-On Learning
• 05:52 - Building STEM Identity Through Aha Moments
• 12:42 - Creating Custom Learning Environments in STEM Education
• 20:00 - Community Involvement in Education
• 28:59 - The Importance of Critical Thinking in an AI-Driven World
• 36:40 - The Importance of a Human-Centered Approach
• 39:46 - The Importance of Resilience and Empowerment in Education

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https://www.linkedin.com/company/creative-learning-systems/

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I would actually venture to say all students need to get up and move and touch and feel and actually have a problem that they have to solve and make mistakes along the way and learn from that failure. And so I venture to say that all students need hands on learning. Some learn better in a read, write, auditory way.

But most students I've seen, even if those are their preferences, really thrive in a hands on, project based environment.

And so when you can take that hands on project based environment and match it with the community, the community then sees, you know, when parents, community leaders, volunteers from the community come into the labs, whether it's in a library or in an actual lab or in the classroom, and work with the students in these hands on projects they themselves are going to see, like, oh, this school needs funding, this school needs more money to get the newest piece of technology.

This school needs us to come in here and volunteer with these students so that we can make sure there's connections to real world and real career jobs in the future. STEM identity is built through aha moments, right?

An aha moment is like the sudden realization that occurs when a learner can connect new ideas in new and meaningful ways, right?

So when you have multiple aha moments, the brain, and we know this from neuroscience, the brain forms these synopsis that build over time and strengthen over time. And when you have multiple aha moments, that is what we're saying, builds the STEM identity.

How we do it at a SMART Lab is through an integrated ecosystem, right?

And as you know, and as our listeners know, an ecosystem is only as good as all the parts in the ecosystem when one piece of the ecosystem is in disarray and that can lose the integrity of the entire ecosystem.

So our ecosystem is comprised of a customized learning environment so the students can learn and thrive in a project based way comprised of project based curriculum, hands on tools and equipment, support and partnership, even from the community, not just the facilitators in it.

Hello, my name is Mark Taylor and welcome to the Education on Far Podcast, the place for creative and inspiring learning from around the world.

Listen to teachers, parents and mentors share how they are supporting children to live their best authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all. Hello. I'm delighted to be chatting to Dr. Jennifer Berry from Smart Lab.

Now, Smart Lab is a career connected STEM ecosystem that equips today's students for tomorrow's challenges.

This includes career connected project based learning curriculum, hands on tools and equipment, customized STEM learning environments and SMART Lab certified facilitators and ongoing support and partnerships. And what I loved most about this conversation is that we discussed all these skills related to our own lives as a musician and a dancer.

Now, STEM is everywhere and in everything. And I hope you find this conversation as inspiring as I did. Dr. Jennifer Berry from Smart Lab.

Hi, Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us here on the Education on Far podcast. I think the parallels between what's going on education wise in the US and the UK seem to be quite similar at the moment.

And I just love organizations and opportunities for children when they're at the heart of what's going on, to be supported both in and around school and education generally. So I think this is going to be a fantastic conversation. And thanks so much for being here.

Thank you so much for having me, Mark. I really appreciate your time and I appreciate you inviting us to this call.

So take us into what SMART Lab is for those people who've not come across it before in sort of the area that you specialize in.

I love this question. So our definition of what is smartlab is we're an integrated ecosystem that sparks Aha. Moments and, and build STEM identity for learners.

But I sort of like to take it backwards because at the core of it, it's about building STEM identity for learners. And we have defined. There's been a ton of research on STEM identity both in overseas as well as in the.

Well, you're overseas and are overseas, so both in the UK and the United States and across the world, frankly. But we've really honed over the last 35 years a definition of STEM identity that we're really proud of.

And also that, that, that cuts to the core of what matters for students. And that definition of STEM identity is about the learner's self belief that I belong, my ideas add value and I can master rigorous challenges.

And those three components of I belong, my ideas add value and impact, and I can master rigorous challenges is really important because when people sometimes think of stem, right, STEM environments, because we're a STEM environment company, we're a STEM company, people think, oh, that must mean in the science, the technology, the engineering and the math fields.

And the reality is what we've seen, and especially what we've seen in this AI powered world that we all live in, that every career, every role that you might play in an organization, you use STEM applications, right?

I mean, STEM applications can be anything from AI, can be circuitry and electronics, but it also can be information technology, it can be mechanics and structures, it can be modeling and design, it can mean just communication and Multimedia, right? So every role has and uses STEM applications.

So when we talk about STEM identity, this new definition is really about how a, how a learner believes and feels.

And then when they feel those things, when they feel they can belong, they feel they add value and they feel like they can master rigorous challenges, they're going to be successful in any career, in any industry that they have. So we, we really think about the core of what SMART Lab does is supporting students in gaining their, and building their STEM identity.

Now, STEM identity is built through aha moments, right? An aha moment is like the sudden realization that occurs when a learner can connect new ideas in new and meaningful ways, right?

So when you have multiple aha moments, the brain, and we know this from neuroscience, the brain forms these synopses that build over time and strengthen over time. And when you have multiple aha moments, that is what we're saying, builds the STEM identity.

How we do it at a SMART Lab is through an integrated ecosystem, right?

And as you know, and as our listeners know, an ecosystem is only as good as all the parts in the ecosystem when one piece of the ecosystem is in disarray and that can lose the integrity of the entire ecosystem. So our ecosystem is comprised of a customized learning environment so the students can learn and thrive in a project based way.

It's comprised of project based curriculum, hands on tools and equipment, support and partnership even from the community, not just the facilitators in it, and then a deep knowledge and strengthening and we call it a certified facilitator that we ensure isn't just trained and dumped into a lab, but it is, that is trained and is growing in their own professional journey along the way.

So we really believe that environment, the curriculum, the tools and equipment that the students use, the support and partnership they get from the community, and then of course the facilitator in the environment that they're in supports that ecosystem so they can have these multiple aha moments and then therefore build their STEM identity so they can be successful in careers in any industry they choose in the future.

And I think that experience in identity is really key, isn't it? I mean, I'm, I'm a musician by trade. I, I went to music college in London, but it only happened. It only happened because we had to do some music.

When I first went to secondary school, sort of age 11, I was certainly that kind of, I didn't have that identity before, but I had the opportunity, the experience, the support and like you say, all those sort of extra things, you know, the Support from the school, the opportunity to perform outside a qualified teacher, that was really sort of rooting for me. And then the places to and perform and you. I can sort of really identify with that sort of wheel idea of all those, all those different things too.

And it was only by then, seeing all of that in action that you can then see that next step, which I guess is just so crucial.

Yeah, absolutely. And I love that you referred to that industry because again, that's not a stem. STEM industry.

However, you were learning STEM skills because as you were practicing and learning and being supported at. Even at the age of 11, at 11, as you were speaking of, you were gaining these aha.

Moments that, that you were connecting that what you were doing with whatever instrument or whatever you were learning on how to read notes, how to read instruments, how to read music was then transforming into like, oh, this could be a career for me. This could be a post secondary role for me.

And that really is exciting to see when students build that STEM identity because they realize no matter what job I have, even if it's in music or if I become a podcast host, there's going to be STEM applications that are used, right? We know in media, we know in music, there's editing, right?

There's, there's conducting, there's planning, there's writing, there's organizing of the notes and of the, you know, if you're layering music together, right? There's, that's all. That all has STEM applications built into it.

And so that's why we really have defined STEM identity and we've taken it out of the STEM world and really thought about it. It's the learner self belief that they belong, they add value and they can master rigorous challenges.

And as soon as it's in an area that any student kind of identifies with, it changes their whole perception, doesn't it?

Like you say, no matter what that career might be, beyond that, I remember, you know, so many classes, whether it was English or maths, and you know, I love music, I want to play music. What does all that matter to me? And then as you start to get a little bit older, it's that kind of, oh, yeah, because I need to write my biog.

I need to actually do a spreadsheet for this next concert. I need to, I need to be communic with people when I'm managing people around me.

And at that point, you realize that all those skills and all those things put together as part of a project, you know, as part of something that you're doing in my case of a musician become incredibly important.

And I think the earlier you can join all of those dots and realize that all these areas are really key, then the sooner you can take it on board and make it individualized for yourself and get all, all the experience and all the learning you possibly can.

I love that and I resonate with that deeply because it's this concept of grabbing from lots of different learning environments, learning aspects, and pulling it all together to formulate who you are going to be as an adult and in this world, contributing to this world in great meaningful ways.

And that's really exciting for me to see that the education system is really starting to realize and look at how can we surround these students with multiple opportunities for growth, multiple ways in which to learn, multiple ways in which to be exposed to things that they're going to need to carry into their real life so that they can be productive adults and they can be productive in this world and make really good positive impacts in our society. So that's really exciting to me. And when I hear people like you in music.

I was a professional dancer growing up, so I resonate with what you're talking about.

That discipline and thinking about it isn't just about the rehearsal room, it isn't just about the performance, but it's also about even data collection and analysis. Right. So we as dancers would go back and watch tape. Right. Sports athletes do this as well. Right. You'd watch tape.

So you're taking that data, you're watching yourself and analyzing. Oh, my arm was off there where everybody's arm was slightly up to the left. I need to make sure that next time I move it to the left.

So you're doing this data collection and analysis even in a dance performance. Right. And data collection and analysis is a STEM application. Right.

And so this concept of teaching data collection and analysis in a learning way and then applying that to even dance or to music or to any career is really powerful and can make the individual, when they come out on the other side as their adult self, much more productive and much more satisfied.

So let's take this into sort of a, sort of a real life situation. I think we've sort of established that we've grabbed the attention. If I was a people doing this, I'm like, right, okay, where am I going now?

So you sort of talked about the hand on, the hands on idea and, and sort of the project based idea of that. So how, how does that work in terms of you're sending things out, you're sending them out.

With the facilitator, it's schools that are reaching out and then getting this. How does it sort of work on that practical level?

Yeah, so we, we customize the learning environments for the school district. So a school district, a school itself, a community center, an after school program will contact us, right.

And then what we do is we curate for them based on their individual needs, the environment. So some places will curate an entire room and we'll come in and turnkey, turn that room into a STEM lab.

So we turn it into a STEM lab environment and those are the high end everything, soup to nuts, wall to wall, STEM environments. And we put in there all the furniture that is conducive for hands on learning. Right.

Places where you can get on the FL and play and move things around and code on the floor, desks where you can actually collaborate with others. So those environments where you can collaborate with others and share ideas. Places where you can make mistakes, right.

Tables where you can make mistakes and wipe that clean and start over. Right.

So we curate, in some cases based on the school or the district or the community locations, needs a room where they can lock and turn it into their STEM lab. Right.

With all of the 3D printers and laser printers and their CNC machines, we can curate that for them and customize it based on their needs and based on what pieces of curriculum they really want to amplify with their students. We can also do it in the corner of a library, right?

Put up some shelves, put the, put the items on the shelves and show them how they can use their library to optimize the learning for students. And we've done that in many places. We can also do it so smack in into classroom so teachers can find a way to put in.

Teachers are very creative out there.

They can find ways to put some of the kits and equipment, some of the materials that are needed for this hands on learning in a corner of their classroom, on some shelves in their classroom and pull it out and implement it within their curriculum so that they're tying it to what they are teaching the students.

So there's multiple of ways, there's multiple ways that we at Smart Lab come in and curate these environments for the school district, the community center, or even the teacher. And we do that based on their unique needs. We customize it based on their unique needs.

What our unique differentiator and what we're really proud of is that not only can we customize and consult and create this environment based on the environment, the school district or community center's needs but we also can flex according to the space, the actual constraints of the space. Right. So, you know, the ideal space most people think of a STEM lab is beautiful, four walls with lots of room and tables.

But we know, and you know, this probably in the uk, I know in the United States, not all school districts have that kind of space available. Right. There's a lot of students packed into some of these schools. There's been a.

A lot of school closures, and so more students have had to come into these buildings. And so therefore, there's not a lot of space. So we get to work with the school and get very creative.

Don't lose the opportunity to gain STEM identity through these aha moments with your students. Let's figure out a way how to take the space you have and use it to best fit your circumstances.

And I think that's such a really important thing to understand from a student as well as a school, or, let's say, a board. Because everyone's life is different, everyone's house is different, everyone's opportunities are different, their backgrounds are different.

So making the most of what you can from an opportunity you've been given so that it works for you in the here and now is such an important skill and a life lesson to understand. Because if you want that to then grow or for it to change, then let's talk about how we do that. Maybe we fundraise, like I say.

Maybe we start looking around the school for a different room that's currently not available but might be in the future.

And those skills, which just seem to be an obvious thing, if you've been down that route before, can be such a blocker for those people who are like, well, this is the sort of the hand I've been dealt or the room I've got, or the money that we've got, and therefore, it has to stop here. Yeah.

You know, two things that resonated with me with what you just said there. One is the community partnership. Right.

One of our components, as I mentioned, we have five components of the ecosystem is community, is partnership and support and partnership. And what we think of partnership is the community getting involved.

And that community matched with the second thing you were talking about, which is the. The differentiated learning for each student. Right. And you and I know because you were a musician, I was a dancer.

Physical movement, kinesthetic learning was really important to probably you and to me because we had to play the instrument, we had to move our bodies. Right.

And so many students need that movement, you know, not just sitting at a desk, you know, watching their computer, listening to the teacher writing on a piece of paper that doesn't work for all students. Some students need to get up, some students need to move.

And I would actually venture to say all students need to get up and move and touch and feel and actually have a problem that they have to solve and make mistakes along the way and learn from that failure. And so I venture to say that all students need hands on learning. Some learn better in a read, write, you know, auditory way.

But most students I've seen, even if those are their preferences, really thrive in a hands on project based environment.

And so when you can take that hands on project based environment and match it with the community, the community then sees, you know, when parents, community leaders, volunteers from the community come into the labs, whether it's in a library or in an actual lab or in the classroom, and work with the students in these hands on projects they themselves are going to see like, oh, this school needs funding, this school needs more money to get the newest piece of technology.

This school needs us to come in here and volunteer with these students so that we can make sure there's connections to real world and real career jobs in the future.

So when you embed the community into this environment of hands on project based learning, into specifically SMART lab, but really any kind of hands on project based learning way, the students get the mentors, of course, but also the community leaders start to see how much these students need and start to bring resources to that environment. Right?

And that's where to me, fundraising is only as good as if the community leader or the organization or the philanthropist sees the impact, right? And can tangibly see, oh, this is our future workforce. These are the students that are going to make change in this world.

These are the students that are going to make this world a better place to live. We need to invest in their future. And why not do it in a way that's connected to careers?

Why not do it in a way that is connected to hands on project learning, whether it's in the music room, whether it's in a STEM lab, whether it's in a dance location, right?

Let's make sure that they're getting those practical applications and let's put not just our volunteer time into it, but also our resources so that matching of the community involvement, which will then ensure that it isn't just based on the school's budget, but it's also funded through the community around that school because they care so deeply about these students and their future.

And I think especially when the project or something that you're working on is related to the community as well, then you really. That goes hand in hand, doesn't it? If it's. It might be within the school community, it might be something which is outside the community as well.

It's a joint venture of some description because then it matters to you.

You know, there can be the most important conversations and learning in the world, but if it's too far, too many steps removed from your experience, then how can you do that?

Whereas if the concepts are the same and you can see how that might work in a different world or a different county or state or country or whatever that happens to be, then you can see how that work. I think it's amazing.

I'm curious, when you sort of said about sort of working with people within the community, how has it where your experiences are in terms of how easy that is to get people in and out of the schools? I know in the UK it's getting harder, you know, and quite rightly, safeguarding is an integral part of what goes on and making sure everybody's safe.

But I think sometimes that can be so rigorous that the thought process of trying to get many people involved is a harder stumbling block than actually the organizing of it. Once all those sort of barriers have been lifted.

Yeah, I appreciate that and I agree. We need. And, you know, I can speak for America as well, we need to make sure we safeguard our children.

Right now, sadly, we're not in a situation where we can just let anybody into the school or in front of students at any moment. We have to protect them because of what's happening across our country.

And I'm assuming other places in the world, schools are doing a really nice job of safeguarding and ensuring that any adult that comes into the building is. They get a background check, right? They have their. They're connected some way to the students in the. Maybe even in some cases in the United States.

There's, you know, checks for. To make sure that they don't have any kind of weapons on them and things of that nature. Right. Security measures to get them through the door.

And what we do at Smart Lab is really make sure that we create a turnkey way for the community to come in. So it isn't like we're saying everybody, come one, come all, just flood into these schools.

It's really about creating a day, an environment, a special moment where you have to go through the certifications to get cleared to get into the school. Right. You have to get checked at the front desk, you Got to make sure you have all of your qualifications checked.

Then you get to come in and have a moment with students that we've already curated so the school doesn't have to think about, what am I pulling together? How am I supposed to do this? I have so many other things to think about. I just.

I can't think about trying to bring, you know, that manufacturing company's employees into my school. That's just too difficult. So what we do is create the plan for them.

So, for example, on November 7th, in honor of National STEM Day, we're having what we call STEM Identity Day, and we are working with schools and community leaders to get them cleared before they come into the school, get them prepared so they know what they're going to be doing with students.

And then on that day, we're going to bring these individuals into the schools and have them talk about their STEM identity and their journey to get to the career they're in, the STEM applications they use in their jobs, and then how that applies, applies to their industry, and then really have an open dialogue with students. And we're calling that STEM Identity Day on November 7th. And that's in honor of National STEM Day across the world.

And that's an example of us making sure we're curating a turnkey way for schools to bring the community in. So you can't just open the doors anymore and bring the community into the school.

You have to sort of pick a day, define what that day looks like, make sure the adults have all the certifications and clearances that they need in order to come into the school, so that it is a smooth operation, but also a safe one. So I agree it cannot just be a flooding of kids, you know, parents and kids and community into the rooms.

But if you do it with integrity and you do it with a plan and you do it with operational excellence, you can get it done and still ensure that the schools and the students are getting what they deserve, which is seeing mentors and seeing leaders in careers that they might not have ever known about had they not heard from, from that individual.

And I think that's where these key relationships are so important, isn't it?

Because, like I say, that turnkey idea of, we know we want this to happen, but there's no way that I can do that as a teacher or the school's just completely swamped with whatever. But we know that working with Smart Lab can make this happen. We know it's all going to be fine.

And then, like you say, you don't quite know what that next step might be, because like you say, you have a day that operates like this and then the, the checks have been done, everything's in place, and then things expand, conversations happen, new projects come, and it all gets much easier because you're sort of creating this community and environment in that safe understanding that we're, we're working as part of this community now, we're supporting these children and we're all able to, to bring it together collectively. And I think that's such a really special way of doing it.

Yeah, I have a great example of that. We had one of these, these STEM Identity Days in the future in the past.

And it wasn't called STEM Identity Day then when we did it this year is called STEM Identity Day.

But we brought in a organization that gave and mentored the students and they identified two particular high school students that they were very impressed with when they were in the classroom doing their conversations and working with them in a hands on way. And what was so exciting about that is afterwards they came, contacted the teacher and said, we were really impressed with these two students.

We'd like to offer them internships during the summer for our organization. And they were able to offer them internships into their company.

And then those students were able to spend their summer before going off to their senior year of high school doing an internship for this organization.

And now we're following them through their high school their senior year and hopes that after that they go on to college and then put, potentially circle back and work for that organization, which is really exciting to see.

So that's those moments where you know it's working when you have these organizations come in and not only are they getting to volunteer for themselves, so they feel like they're doing some philanthropic effort. Right. For their community, but they're also identifying talent early. Right. And they're, they're seeing the need. Right.

And they hope hopefully will then say, oh, we don't just want to give time, but we also want to give reason resources to ensure that all of these students get a leg up and really understand what it, what it takes to be an employee of our type of industry.

Yeah. And I think that earlyness is such a, an important factor, isn't it?

And I think from that sort of employer standpoint as well, is the fact that we know we need, you know, creative sort of critical thinking people, people that are going to be interested in the way that we do things. And the more you can have those conversations earlier, like you say, there'll be people that Sort of fit into that mold and better than others.

And it just, it just means that, oh yeah, we're actually working at this together and both sides are going to benefit as well. And if you can identify those people early on, then you know, you're taking real care of the here and now, but also your future as well.

And that can only be a positive thing for everybody.

Yeah, I love that perspective, you know, and I think that's even more true than even when you and I were younger because of this AI powered world that is starting to move at rapid speeds, right?

AI has been around a while, but the way in which it's moving at rapid speeds is starting to really have organizations rethink about the level of skill that they need to employ in the future. Because now AI is starting to learn and do the things that maybe a student would need to learn that skill to come into the organization and do.

And so now these organizations are starting to realize that like, oh, AI can do that. So I don't need an employee to have that skill. Right.

And so what educators should be thinking about and doing is providing what you were talking about. How do these students critically think, how are they communicating with each other? How are they able to work collaboratively in a group?

And those are age old competencies that we've talked about. But I think they're even more important than ever because we want leaders to be able to lead in an AI powered world world.

We want students that can see, hey, I know how to code.

I also know AI can code and I know how to ask AI the right prompts so that it could code the thing that I need to solve the problem that I see in front of us. And those, I think what is what organizations are starting to think about when they think about the future workforce?

I don't think they're starting to think about, oh, we need people that know how to code, we need people that need know, need to know how to use, you know, some mechanical tool anymore. Because the reality is AI is learning and doing those things, right? But what they are starting to see is we still need humans.

We still need humans to be able to effectively prompt, right? Think about the problem they're trying to solve.

When AI spits out an answer, they have to be able to critically say, that doesn't quite meet the moment, that doesn't quite answer the question.

It might be the simplest thing, but it actually isn't going to produce the product that we're trying to produce in a long term way or meet the value prop that we're trying to get for this customer.

So I think it's really important for businesses as well as the education system to start to think about how we should lean more into critical thinking skills, collaboration skills, communication skills, right?

The ability to look at a problem and be able to know, like sometimes you have to throw an idea at it, fail at it, learn from that and be able to pivot quickly, right? And I think that's what this world is going to need from future leaders.

And this next generation coming up are leaders that can really think through all the answers that are going to be in front of them, that AI is going to produce and be able to sort out the biases within that sort out what is actually going to drive future success and whatever problem they're trying to solve and be able to discern, right, that discernment, that deep discernment between what's been just given to them versus what actually is the right answer. And that to me is really exciting.

If educators think about how to put students in environments like a smart lab, like a music room, like a dance room, where they can learn to make mistakes, fail, get up, dust themselves off, learn how to collaborate with others, learn how to critically think.

And you know, my belief is that you can only do that in a project based hands on way where you're forced to do that, because if you're just studying and using AI to answer all your questions, you're not really being forced to communicate, collaborate critically, think with others.

I think that's so brilliantly put because I think you have to understand that in the round as you've just described it, in order to see where that future is and what we need to be doing on the here and now. I mean, I just sort of think back people who were concerned about the Internet.

It's like, well, I used to have to go like half an hour down the road to go to the library to maybe find the book I needed to get the information that I needed. And then all of a sudden I could just ask a search engine, which saved all of that time.

But what I didn't know was whether the stuff that came back on the search engine even now, is it actually accurate? Is it actually what I need? You still have to have to be discerning about that. And I think AI is just one of those things.

It's still taking all that information from something that's already, already out there.

Where the genius comes is the fact that I think it might be slightly different or I think we can do this or what happens if, and then, and then the world suddenly comes alive. And I think the, the big part that you mentioned there is the failing part. And I think that's the hard thing with an education at the minute.

I think so many children are, I need to do well at the test. You're expecting me to know that already.

And I think that switch to I want to fail nine times because I know that actually maybe it's the tenth time that's going to make a difference and what we can do with that and how that goes about and why.

I think these collaborations and the sorts of things that you're doing with Smart Lab is going to sort of offer that in a way which is within the ecosystem of education at the moment, but just with enough sort of tentacles far enough out to be able to go, oh yeah, I can see this actually working, despite what maybe some of my other education experience experiences are like.

Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that, I appreciate that. And, and it's true. AI is not going to take over if we let it. We're humans, we're smarter than the robots. Right.

But if we let it, it could be a scary place.

But I love how you're framing this idea that education at the moment needs to really not over fixate on like how do we teach kids AI and instead overly fixate on how do we get them to have discernment, how do we get them to be okay with failure, how do we get them to take a problem and maybe throw some AI at it, but also give it some prompts, Have AI come up with a solution, but also look at it and be like, is that really going to get us what we're looking for? Is that really going to solve the problem or is that the easy way out?

And that's going to take a lot of effort from educators to ensure that these students are being able to lead in an AI powered world, not let AI lead them.

Yeah, I think that's really, really important. And going back to the musical analogy, I also think there's a time and a place for certain things as well.

If you sort of, if I think back to the 80s, you know, I was at school, but the drum machines were the thing. It's all about it being perfectly in time. It's about a perfect sound. Someone's generated this sound and you're like, that's it.

The art of the drummer is gone. Live bands are going to disappear. It's all about electronic music.

And then you suddenly hit the 90s and it's like, all we want is A band that can play together and, you know, and it goes full circle. Might have taken a decade, but.

But you get there and now you sort of think, you know, you go into the noughties and beyond, and there are some amazing tracks. They've got that sampled sound, they've got some of that.

But it's put to collaboratively with a real band or with a track or whatever, and you use the tools that you've got and it. And it sort of starts to come together. And I'm.

Who knows what the future holds, but it does seem to be that it's taking bits and pieces of everything, all the tools that we have at our disposal and how we put that together, which is the key to hopefully, our sort of community and our success going forward, no matter whether it's locally, nationally, or as a whole world, I guess.

Yeah, I appreciate that. You know, humans by nature crave community, right? They crave collaboration and they crave storytelling. Right from the beginning.

You know, indigenous people in whatever land they were in told story stories to evoke emotion, right. And to evoke connection and inclusion. Right. And technology is limited in that. It's limited in evoking emotion that can.

That can build bridges and that can define our futures. And so I love that.

That concept of, you know, in that road that you took us on for the music, from the 80s to the 90s to even now, because it's all going to come full circle, right?

And there's always going to be this demand from the human to want something unique, something different, to feel included, to be able to have their voice in the mix, to be able to hear other people's stories so that they can learn for themselves. Maybe a connection to what they're going to because they see themselves in someone else or a connection to, like. Oh, I've never.

I've never known that that culture existed or that sort of pain has happened to other people. People. And now I'm motivated to be a part of that and to bring that to a peaceful place.

And so I think that's a really beautiful way of talking about music. I can think about it from dance, from a dance perspective, too. There's just this.

This element of using technology and using human connection to just build bridges to ensure that we come out on the other side, you know, a more beautiful community.

Yeah, And I think this conversation has been so much like that because anyone thinking we were going to be talking about stem, I'm sure, like you said at the beginning, are talking about circuit boards, you know, test tubes, Labs, whatever, whatever, whatever these things happen to be. And I think the fact that it's been so human centric and you know, mainly because of the way that you, it's run through smart labs as well.

But I think it's, it's a really sort of heartwarming experience for people to realize it's all about how we do it and how we fit it in, no matter what the initial label or your initial thought pattern is, which I think is so incredibly important.

Thank you, I appreciate that. Yeah, I've enjoyed this conversation. I love when I can meet like minds that really care about that human centered connection.

You know, it's interesting, before becoming a CEO, I was a chief operating officer for many different organizations and people would always ask me what type of chief operating officer with are you?

And I always found that a curious question because when you think of a chief operating officer it's like spreadsheets and analysis and organizational process and systems thinking. And my answer always was human centered. And people always were like, wait, you're a chief operating officer and you're human centered?

Isn't that what the chief people officer does? And my feeling is all anybody in an organization should come from the human centered lens first. Because the human is who we're trying to serve. Right.

And at the end, whether you're trying to sell a product or whether you're a non profit or whether you're a government agency, your ultimate goal is to affect human lives. Right.

And so if you're not looking at your role from the lens of human centered first, you're always going to make mistakes that impact the human in a negative way. And our job should always be to figure out how to impact the human in a positive way.

And you'll make mistakes doing that too, but at least you know, it was aimed at impacting humans in a positive way. So that human centered lens I think is really important in any role that you're in.

But definitely organizations and what services they're trying to sell or provide or impact in this world.

Yeah, definitely.

Having that starting point is just so absolutely critical and it sort of brings us nicely into this because obviously the acronym FIRE is important in terms of feedback, inspiration, resilience and empowerment. What is it that strikes you, whether it's one of those words or just that collective feeling.

To. Two of the words really strike me. All of them do. But the two words at the end of fire, resilience and empowerment.

There's some interesting things going on in I can speak specifically for our country right now. Some Polarizing points of view, some sort of divide that's happening in our country. And my goal is to think about how to create resilience in myself.

I have an 11 year old daughter, how to ensure that she has resilience. And then in the organization that I serve, really make sure we're grounded in how to ensure that students are becoming resilient.

And knowing that hope is not a strategy, but it definitely is a guiding star, a north star. Because I feel like there's a lot of despair and sort of. And feeling like what do I need to. How do I even function?

And all this noise and all this fear and all this hate. And I believe that resilience can really be that.

And I know that the word fire, be that fire that burns brightly, that comes above the noise, that can rise to the top and see that light of hope, that our future is bright. Right. Our students.

It brings tears to my eyes because I think about my own daughter and she needs a world that is, is safe, that is kind, that is empathetic and that she can thrive in.

And so that that encouragement and build of resilience in her, I think is, is my parental quest right now to know that we're going to block out a lot of that noise. We're going to see the noise so that we can see the facts, the true facts that are in front of us.

But we're not going to wallow in it and let it break us. We're going to look at the hope and we're going to rise above it and be collective, better humans because the whole world deserves that.

So that resilience piece I think is really important and then empowerment. And I think about this more from the standpoint of being a CEO of this, of Smart Lab.

And I think about it for the employees that work with me, I want every single employee to feel empowered to have a seat at the table and empowered to help make decisions for this organization that are right for the students we serve.

I want to ensure that all of the curriculum that we design is embedding empowerment into the students so that they feel empowered to be the best versions of themselves. So those two words for me just really resonate.

And I appreciate your FIRE acronym because I believe that if we burn brightly together and un in a unified way, we can make world peace, we can make world change, and we can be a collective society that cares about each other, cares about differences, cares about including each other into this amazing fabric and tapestry of life.

Well, I can't add anything more to that. So Beautifully put.

I think if I can encapsulate that in everything that we do, then we're going to be sharing some amazing conversations and stories and supporting all of our young people going forward. So, Jennifer, thank you so much, indeed. I really appreciate your time and all your insights and what you're doing.

Tell people where they can go and find out more information about Smart Lab or wherever you'd like them to get more info.

Yeah, absolutely. So our website is www.smartlab learning.com.

so Smart Lab s M A R T Lab L A B Learning L E A R N I n g. So smartlab learning.com you can find us on there. We have a ton of free resources. I hope you join us for STEM Identity Day.

Even if you're in the uk, let's figure out how to partner together and create STEM Identity Day. You do not need to do STEM Identity in a Smart Lab.

You can do STEM Identity in any school, in any community center, and any place that students thrive. So we hope you join us for that STEM Identity Day on November 7th. And if you want to, you know, reach out to me, I'm on LinkedIn.

You can find me on LinkedIn. Dr. Jennifer Berry. And I'd be happy to engage and mentor and support. I'm.

I'm for my fellow human and want to make sure that I have an open door for people that want to talk and learn and grow and, and, and, and be better together.

Fantastic. Thank you so much. Indeed. And I really look forward to seeing. Seeing where the journey takes you going forward. So, yeah, thanks so much. Indeed.

Thank you, Mark. I appreciate you. Thanks for having me.

Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.