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The Think Free Rebellion - Rob McPhillips EPISODE 24, 6th October 2020
Dating Tactics: Game Playing Or Authenticity
00:00:00 02:48:47

Dating Tactics: Game Playing Or Authenticity

There are The Rules, Pick Up Strategies and all self-proclaimed experts claiming they have the secret to dating success.

But is success getting in a relationship that's wrong for you?

We discuss the topic and as always range all over the areas of dating, relationships sharing perspectives and experiences.



So I'm thinking if we break into breakout rooms based on the cooking, I can't get through. Now, last week, last week's version was treat them mean to keep them keen.


So wondering we're in agreement. I don't think they necessarily agreed with. With the principle, but believe it happens and the other room was so opposed to that. So.


I was hoping by by being in two sort of camps, we might develop the argument more and have a bit more of a debate to tease out all the issues. So does anyone want to start and open up the debate? Gulfstar. And we sort of discussed that it does work, it does happen, it does work for people and we don't necessarily think it's that or at least I can talk for myself. I don't see it as being it's not the only way that works.


And we don't think it's anything that's going to result in a quality, authentic, long lasting relationship. Think, did you want to say more sessions now, so we're finished and I'm just going to I'm just komu everyone. And then if you want to talk, just talk. Just we cut out the background noise, so just admit yourself to talk. So, Ben, are you.


Yeah. I think what came up for us. Well I speak for myself from what I picked up on the theme of availability and perhaps sort of not showing that you're too available in the early stages of. Courtship, for want of a better phrase, might create a sense of failure or attraction. That's my theory. I mean, it's not it's you know, it's kind of sort of bordering on veer into dishonesty, manipulation at its most extreme. But I think everyone does does do it to a degree, really, whether it's treating someone mean or not, you know, discuss which we're doing.


But that's that's what those are my thoughts anyway. That's what I got from our discussion group. And if anyone else wants to chime in and add to that or disagree.


Yeah, I was saying that if you come across as too keen, it can actually pay off a woman. But that doesn't mean you have to. But if you come across, I don't know if your tooth is yardstick, she can think, I don't know, you're too easily available or I don't know what the logic is. But so I think there's some truth in what you just said, assuming that's what you meant. Yes, but at the same time, I find it hard because as a man, I think there's still a lot of women's minds, the sort of expectation of the man.


It's my job to kind of initiate and lead and show interest and balance right early. Yeah, I think so. So I think there is I think you have to separate the two, really there's like the person and then there's the like the social mask, the social view of the person. And being that we're social animals, there is and we're pack animals, there is kind of like a status. And if. If you to it's not that I don't think it's necessarily the fact that you're too quick to respond, I think it's the fact that it appears that you've got nothing better to do.


And it seems like you have low social value because you're not really it looks like you're. Always dependent and needy on that person, whereas if you're authentically doing your own thing and you're busy, sometimes you're not going to be able to reply. So is it do you think it's something to do with that social value as opposed to. As a strategy. It does the strategy work because it increases your social value? I'm not sure it does. I think it's just if people are overenthusiastic, it just feels too fast more than anything else.


Or at least I can only say that from my perspective anyway, which then creates the pressure.


And you feel like they're going too fast and you feel like you then have to reciprocate.


And I lose myself. If I had to go at that pace and lose my own grounding and it all got a bit like you have to explain it better than that, it almost feels like.


If I was to reciprocate the speed of the overenthusiastic, it would it would just I don't know how to explain it. I would lose a sense of reality and a sense of grounding in that. As in it's kind artificially fast us. You feel smothered, I suppose. As well. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of we lose everything else going on in my world and I would be yeah.


And also you start wondering what is the is that an affirmative? As well, but. I think when we talk about this sort of and I think was it Ben, that said that the manipulation basically, that's what it comes down to. Ultimately, it's it's not going to work. It's not going to be a long lasting thing. I think this will Sasha will sing as well and. It's not so much I think the whole point comes down to authenticity.


If you are not yourself, so if if you are, for example, the desperate person, you've got nobody and you cling to one person and smother them, that's going to come across the way it is. And it's going to put the person rightly so, because you're almost like drowning them, then you need to kind of get a grip on your own self. You need to sort your own issues out first because you need to treat the other person with some respect, give them a bit of space and all the rest of it.


The desperation comes across. If, on the other hand, you, I suppose, used the tactic and try to be as if, you know, I haven't got time today, I want to respond to you on purpose so that I can make it look like I you know, I'm so busy I haven't got time for you. But actually, I have. I'm just trying to respond. But I'm just there is manipulation game that is still not being true.


And after a while, people will figure you out for who you are. And then and then where are you then? Basically nothing, because they'll just walk away. Rightly so. So I think if anybody feels that they have to have somebody they can't be without someone and they're going to end up smothering them, then they perhaps need to look inwardly and see how they can fix that first. We'll need somebody at some point, you've got a defined time, I can you define rushing in because some some people say rushing in is a text message every 30 seconds.


Another people you get a text from every three days. How can you fall in love with someone with a text message? Every. But then again, the text messages all day at work can be smoldering in and over the top. It's a debate that there's no there's no answer to it. It could go on for years. The debate like this.


Well, I think the first thing to recognize with that, I will say anyway, is that we are not dealing with a mathematical formula. You're dealing with human beings. Yeah. And every person will be different. And in any case, that person will change over time as well. You'll notice. So you're going to have to learn to read the signals from the other person. If if you kind of go right, first I do this, then I do that, then I do that, then I get the result.


People are like they may be having a bad day. They may be having a fantastic day. So on the fantastic day, you get lots of responses that are joyful on the part that you get zero responses. They say to you, sort of leave me alone. I've got things to you to kind of compensate for that a little bit. You know, I mean, I talk to my friends and sometimes we talk a long time. Sometimes I'll send the wrong message and she might not get back to me for two days.


And all I will think is, oh, she must be really busy. And that's it. You know, I won't I won't be pestering her sometimes. And sometimes she does the opposite back. She brings me a few times and says, I feel like I'm stalking you now. So, you know, if you're busy, just let me know or something. And I was under attack saying, I'm really, really busy at the moment. Sorry, I'll call you later on this evening or something.


And it's that sort of sort of relationship, but. I suppose what I'm saying is even with people, you know, sometimes you may not get a response all the time, even though I've known this woman for a long time and we're just just friends, nothing else. There are times when we don't talk to each other for a long time because we're just very busy. So I suppose bottom line is that there isn't a formula that you can use.


You just have to learn what the other person is about. You just have that this. I suppose in some ways that's the scary part, but it's also the fun part, you are finding out about the other person. If you're interested in the other person, in some to some degree, you're going to find out what they're like. To be fair, I think it's a lot different speaking about a friend than it is a potential lover because there's just not the same dynamics and being involved it, although I do appreciate what you say.


I yeah, I don't know, I, I'm not so sure I agree with that, to be honest with you.


Well, yeah, because you're not you know, you're not trying to get your friend into a bad idea. You're not trying to have a romantic thing with your friend.


So it's so passionate is absolutely right.


And you know what? One thing I discovered after my marriage is that first thing not to do is never to try and get into bed anyway, especially because you don't know.


I don't really know what I mean, because obviously the subject tonight is about seating them and keeping them keen, isn't it? And I think we're talking about from a romance issue, if we can use that word relationship.


Absolutely. Yes, even in even in Korea, even in a romantic setting, I'd still agree with our being being not being this sort of authentic way to go about things.


Exactly. What I'm saying is that I'm sorry if I can just finish and then I'll let you guys go. I think personally, the way to the romantic romantic bit is the not not the ultimate goal is quite rightly the opposite. That's kind of the start of a relationship. But if you want to get to that level, you have to go through the friendship side first. I recommend, because you have to know the person you're looking because how can you feel romance for somebody who you do not really understand and know, because you are going to base it on the physical attributes which after a while will mean nothing because you got used to those physical attributes as well.


So what's going on? I come in after this. But I finished, so thanks. Well, I think these kind of dynamics can come up with friendships as well. I think whenever you've got, like expectations and you've got a sort of social contract where two people say, OK, well, this is what I expect of you. And I think like you've talked about this a lot and I really agree with you where things aren't verbalized, but people have expectations without being a romantic or a friendship relationship.


That's where one, you know, relationships of any sort can get into difficulty. I think, like if a friend thinks, oh, well, that person should get back to me by two days or so, I think, you know, it's just any relationship, really. That's my opinion.


So and I'd like to go back to Sasha's point, though, where she's talking about having two different speeds, so to speak. If I'm getting her right and one party is not moving fast, can't move at the speed of the other one. The other one is overwhelming in terms of demands or expectations. And I think that type of on balance, where you feel as though you have lost your self-control, you are to control what's coming from the other side is not so much your problem with you, but the other person may be.


They have been through many, many things in their past where they feel that if they don't go in all they're all in, that they will lose out. And how does one bridge that gap to create understanding with the other party that. No, my speed is you're making me uncomfortable at the rate at which you're going. But I do like you. But can we? Because some of the times what you are doing is that you're busy. As Errol said, you have other commitments.


You have a pattern in your life, that and other commitments that you can't just disband your life because somebody is coming all in and wanting you to be available. The answer and text messages all the time, you know, just on the spur of the moment, all the time.


We have commitments. We need to have a pattern. If your behavior can coincide with my my pattern, my life pattern, then maybe we can give it a go and you don't. It's not that you need to think that I'm doing other things. I don't want to talk to you or I'm seeing somebody else or all those things that create mistrust.


So how do you from the very beginning, start to establish those basic foundation pillars, so what you say and at that point I wouldn't know that I like them or not because I don't mean that in a disrespectful way, but I haven't got to know them enough to know that I like them enough to continue, if that makes sense. Yeah, it's just very it's just very difficult from the are from the star.


Yeah. I think that's I think that's the basic compatibility issue isn't it. It's like the right of I think everyone I think there needs to be, as John said, there needs to be some momentum because otherwise it's just going to die. But it needs to be, whereas some people might be quite insecure, reattach the middle validation and need a lot of attention. Someone and it can be a difference. It can be a problem between someone who's got children and someone who doesn't have children and maybe doesn't have much else responsibility in their life.


And so they're looking for a lot of attention where someone else is very busy and full life. And I think that's that's one of the basic issues of compatibility. Like the speed that you want to go back. And Sheila has been very patient. She had a hand up for quite a while. Did you want to add to the conversation?


I think I agree with a lot of what the others have said. I think the treatment mean to keep looking is a perception. Partly, it could be that you do have a game plan and it is a deliberate action. But I think the receiver I think sometimes it is a perception. You know, it's a Sasha was saying, you know, one person could be going at a different speed because the other person's not ready to go at that speed yet.


Now, that person feels as if the needs are not being met, could perceive that, you know, the other side is deliberately doing it, treating them, I mean, to keep them keen. But I don't think it's necessarily the case. But I think in terms of going at a certain speed, it's down to, I think partly down to self care. It could be the other person is just not ready is, as Sandra said, not ready to either give up parts of their life that they.


Used to and comfortable with to get deeper into this relationship at this stage, it's not to say that they won't want to a bit later on. But I think also it's a it's it's a communication style, you know, how often do you communicate? How do you communicate? You know, whether it's text or whether it's messaging or code. Again, that's different for different people. I just just to give some context, how we initially came up with the topic, I think was there are things like the rules and there's like these dating items, like we've set criteria that you don't call someone for four days after four days, like after after a day or you don't text and you wait for hours until they've texted or or there's like kind of male ones where it's based on seeming uninterested and playing a particular role.


So I think we've got you've got two ends of the spectrum. You've got people who are artificially playing these games and then you've got other people who are. Perhaps over interesting without really knowing anything about the person, so I think this I think we've got to see dimensions. May I have a set of those rules, please? I don't know them, but while we're talking, I'm going to avoid changing.


I have no idea.


And I think I blame the Internet.


Well, actually, the rules the original the rules was like nine six.


Well, I think it's like a decrease in just one day.


It all started to go wrong. 1995, the rules.


Oh. Oh, gosh. Those of us have been married for ages. No wonder we have no idea.


Well, actually, because it made the newspapers when when the person in the room has been left there as well. Most. OK, so that's a conclusion point, did these rules change from culture to culture or country to country?


Well, I mean, when you look at it, it's an artificial. Someone said, this works for me. It's not really based on any on any real basis. It's just two women decided to write a book. I mean, we could all write any kind of book, and it doesn't mean anything.


But I do wonder whether there is a cultural thing to that as well, whether, you know, whether your background with a different rule or common practice is seen, say, in America compared to, you know, China or India or Australia.


I wondered if there were different perceived role. I suppose really what you're doing in a in something like that, what you're doing is engineering culture is all based on what the culture is and creating a specific. Image. But I think, you know, looking at research, what tends to happen is people who play games attract people who play games. And so, like Carol said, the intense I think you've got free, free, real dieting strategies, you've got this the strategy of summer stressful on me and I'm just going to be many.


And then you've got someone who follows all these tricks and techniques and tries to present an image.


And then I think the the midway is present, the image of what you're striving to be or what you would like to be. And be present in an authentic if you just want to be yourself, I still think you still need to know the place to take the light.


You don't meet someone and tell them on the first day, like too much information. It's not being an authentic. I just still think even if you being yourself is still a pace at which you reveal things and let people know more about you and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah.


You know, I don't think that's necessarily playing the game. That's just. Yes, I think there are people who play games and then there are people who just need too much too soon.


Can you can you imagine us all taking a copy of this book, studying it, and then all is as a little sort of science experiment and then go and find it a day to practice all these rules on and seeing what the outcomes were. So I'm going to find any fun.


But I also. But couldn't it be that we should really be thinking about how we can identify people who are putting on a facade so that we don't get entangled with this performance and not waste time and protect ourselves and tell them goodbye ASAP?


So how do you identify somebody who's a game player, but somebody who is not necessarily a game player, but just hesitant or trying to be their best selves, so to speak? So I don't want to show the other side or their bad habits because it's not something they're proud of. That's the 64 million dollar question, isn't it? How would you find out? Not normally. We guys, it's once they've slept with you, then you'll find out that that's sad.


But that's the truth, isn't it? Well, I personally, I think I think people talk a lot about protecting yourself, and I think as long as you're standing on sound foundations and you're not doing anything that you don't want to do. And I don't. I feel like that's how you protect yourself by you do what you want to do and not being swayed the way you get her is where you get swayed because you believe in this fairy tale or you, for example, like John saying you like you get carried away and you believe that this you know, someone's promised you this long term relationship and they're just plan you to sleep with you.


It's only if you get carried away, whereas if you I think your own party still your. Feel ready for and you want to do. And check, check, find people that know the person and ask about the. I think by the time I have time, the truth always comes out, sorry, John. I'm just thinking about so I'm picturing this as this is situations where you're not seeing the other person in real life routinely and you're using some kind of way of messaging, you know, to communicate.


Interesting, to compare with a walking group that I go on where you are sort of physically there in real life for a lovely long walks every week with people and feels similar.


It's a bit of a different sort of dynamic because you there is that option to kind of send encoded messages, if you like, via text because you are physically there. But you can sort of pick up all kinds of subtle cues, like if somebody didn't realize you were, you turned up for that walk and you turn up and you briefly saw them looking pleased you turned up, then you can read all kinds of things like that.


So it sort of feels to me like that then needs less of this sort of chicanery or sort of, um, because it's it's kind of real life and therefore perhaps preferable. You're not presented with with these sort of dilemmas of do I message now? You know, you can just you literally just on walk and you can sense so many things. I guess what I'm saying is, OK, I would recommend it. I mean, I know not everybody in this group is in the position of looking for a partner, but if you are, then I recommend it because you just you you know what?


People like to know people and they must be still. Some kind of strategy, you can still play a little bit cool, but you can pick you just become friends and so you're already getting through those important stages of knowing whether you can get on together. You know what other people think. One of my difficulties is that we are now in an era where we can meet people online, we can meet people from all over in days gone by, you would meet people in your local community more or less or wherever you've gone to school or university or work.


So you could get information easier than that. I think the No. About person are you you're more likely to know people who know them or know of them. So those players. With reputations are probably people that you will already have heard of or knew of or would like to be warned about.


Now you have to build up the trust with somebody from scratch nowadays because you can meet people from all sorts. You have no idea, no clue what they are about. You just have to take them on trust. I think it's I think there's a process you have to go through as well before you actually start realizing which ones are the more trustworthy ones by you, the more you speak to people and the more you think this feels this feels sort of like cool with this person and you just get to know the ones that are more like the playtime's because it just doesn't feel good at all right from the beginning.


But I suppose you have to be not caught up in the the rush of the other person. That's I think that's important, where you can give a dispassionate look at what the person is presenting to you as you're seeing. So you can see whether or not that person is is authentic. You have time to. I'm just saying we feel, as we mentioned in before, about how do you tell early on so there's ways you can tell sort of like a longer term if you've got to know them and start speaking to people in a book on a more sort of short term, immediate sort of quite early on.


It's more just through you just with time. You just get to know the ones that are a bit more cool and comfortable and all the people. That's that's that's a good point. I'm just wondering who has been on dating sites as everyone, you know, dating sites.


Yeah, I mean, that is OK.


OK, so this is probably this is probably a good way to crowdsource.


So I think that's a really good point, Sasha, that you learn from experience. Yeah. And so what it might be worth doing is if we go into a couple of breakout rooms and discuss personal experiences, what you've learned from being on a dating site, because there are certain I think there's certain archetypes you see of certain people, types of people on on dating sites for certain behaviors that you see the same patterns that you see again and again. So it might be worth having a discussion.


On that, so anyone who's new can sort of pick up from that and share. Ideas and perspectives. Now, I'm wondering, is there something that sort of gender specific is different differences for men to notice and differences for women? Or do you think just a random thing makes grabs random because mixed groups and females can get male's perspective of males, can get female perspective? Yeah, or we could do it afterwards. Whatever.


OK, all right. So I'm going to randomly assigned to actually we can just find the same group. Come on. Yeah.


I'll just remind you before we we sort of move on from from talk about the game playing strategies to specifics, you know, lessons people have learned from dating sites.


One of the people who like is an example for the philosophy philosophy that I was thinking was if you read the books of Neil Strauss, I don't know if anyone's read the game. Neil Strauss. He's a brilliant writer who is really entertaining and basically he's a nerdy journalist who's shy with women and very good women, and he learns about these pick up artists and he learns the game. And so his first book is about the game and it's about how he learns and then he becomes the hero.


He can have his pick of all these women. So he then made millions teaching people, teaching men how to pick up women. And this led to about 10 years later, his second book, which is I think it's the truth. And I think that's really interesting because. You can learn the skills. And you can learn to play the games. But my question about it is, where does it lead you to? And so I think Neil Strauss is a really interesting person to look at, if you're interested in that, just to read the first book to see how he kind of went on that journey and then to see where it led into.


I actually read that when he first when he first got published, and I think it was about 20 years ago, shortly after.


Which one is that? The game or the game again? Have you read the truth? No, actually, the truth is the truth is, I think a really good sequel because it shows what it led to.


OK, because the other because obviously I read the book, I thought I'd try some of the techniques. To be fair, none of them were that sort of.


And I can't remember I think I mean, I have read the game. It didn't make a huge impression, so I can't really remember much of it. But the truth did because basically she's like, okay, if you can have any one more detail. And it sort of led to him going into rehab and all kinds of things. And it's like an exploration of access. So. Okay, so we were talking about or you were talking about what we learned from dating sites and what to look out for and not to be where we are for someone new or or someone who has an experience when you have who's got something interesting to add to to teach to someone.


She left, I think what we were saying in our group was that. A person's experience of a dating site is different, depending on which dating site you're on, the. There have been good experiences and bad experiences, you know, my brother in law, my. She met on a dating site, you know, that's the story I've heard of other couples who met on dating sites, but I think experiences change from site to site. And I think also there are a lot of players on dating sites.


You know, I think that's that's insightful. I think he's like. Facebook is different from Instagram. It's different from Twitter, and I've seen ads like Twitter is like standing around the water cooler. Instagram is kind of cooler, more of an image. Facebook is more.


Like discussion and family and people a little out older, like my kind of age, and yeah, I think dating sites have different they attract different types of people. And also, I think the way that you go onto a dating site, how you approach it also. Has an effect on your experience. So which dating sites would you if someone was listening and they were looking for a dating site, which would you recommend them? Why which would you stay away from and why?


I would say avoid plenty of fish. Well, I only lasted three or four days and it's full of scum just spun so so it's tendo, but I don't think it is, but I think. Maybe tumble and whinge to change. It's called. And the good thing about Bumble, actually, like you mentioned earlier, was that the woman has to initiate the conversation, so it's good for them. They don't get bombarded with messages. And for the guy's point of view, we don't have the pressure of sending interesting and flamboyant and a comedian and the first message because it's really difficult.


So, yeah, the other is probably fine. I think henges can be good because people can react to individual pictures, for example, so you can get at least get a sense of what aspects of showing, um, you know, sort of. People are interested in. I think it depends on. You're after. Different sites offer you different things, so I think it depends what you want. You want a long term relationship. You want something casual.


And. I think most people who are listening or attending are genuinely looking for something longer term. So which sites would you recommend from your experience?


I think my experience from from our discussion, I think I'm Develin very, very out of date with what's out there. I think in the past I've used Match.com and eHarmony. I don't even know if they're still going. But yeah, I agree. I predate Tinder and plenty of what I did.


I mean, Tinder to me is more it's not dating, it's more casual. But I do know a couple who have met on Tinder together a couple of years. So I think it does depend on the people and the motivations. But I would take probably a bumbling was a bit more seriously. I suppose you have to make more effort on their profile.


Yeah, when I when I was dating, I always found Tinder like you. You'd have to swipe through so many. It was time consuming. Yeah. Oh, my God, that's just me. No, it is, and also the conversations are time consuming and the effort involved in the chats are pretty much 90 percent the same as well. So, I mean, I've come off of the outs and I just had enough of them, but I, I wouldn't recommend them.


But if you're not in Florida. See how you go.


I suppose I'm swiping ones. Make you feel it. Makes you feel like people are just a stack of cards that you flip in for.


It's not a nice like right now.


That's what we were saying in our group, is that you can swipe somebody left or right on the outside. But if you saw them and in front of you in a public coffee or something, you would probably do something different. You think of them differently, perhaps. I think I think one of the big problems of dating sites is that typically if you look at people who have been in a relationship, maybe 20 or 30 years, they'll have met at work or they were friends and they weren't initially attracted to each other, but over.


Six months or so, someone you weren't even interested in, you didn't even think of that like you saw him and you developed feelings for them over time. And I think that dating sites prevent that people feel or make snap decisions and feel guilty for that reason, which. I totally agree with you, actually, I'm against say I use them, many of them, but I honestly don't like any of them because actually they turn people as products in a shop or in a supermarket and all you care about is cover and don't know who we are dealing with.


No education. Nobody cares about education. Nobody cares about your work. Nobody achievement in life. Nobody cares about anything. Just look at your photo swipe. Left, right. And this means nothing actually, actually, for even for for people to demonize each other later. Even in real life, they're just changing the mentality of people to see this is the way we see each other after that. So it's just all about sakova just product. Nobody see what's inside anymore.


So and also about this intention, people. Right. Looking for a long relationship. I don't mean it. And sometimes so they would write anything. They're even Bompard, for example, you get people actually saying yes, like and after a while they start reading the profile and then are much again. So it is it's just like for me actually, I don't really feel it at all. It's totally waste of time. But and even changing the mentality of people, because everyone is starting to see people starting to see each other as just sakova I think still has a huge negative effect on people.


And this is my point.


I think I think is a bit like Facebook and Facebook and Google are trying to influence your behavior so that you spend more time on their side, they get more money for advertising. And I think by default, that's what dating sites will do. But if you. I think you you have to bring more humanity, and if you message people in a way that is more connecting and you act. As a real person, person to person, I think you can sort of override the default mentality, but I think that the nature of dating does make most people behave more transactionally.


I agree with you, Rob, but I think that one of the big problems is or one of the lessons that I've learned, is that when you're in that environment all the time, like you can go in with humanity and authentic connection and stuff, where you wrong over time or at least it deals with me. And then I feel like you have to sort of take time out and regain your soul if right mindset and you so that your mind's in the right place again.


And then before you move forward, it can easily like where people out of good intentions and stuff.


Yeah, I would say that you like how much time you're going to spend on the. And I'm just going on this time, I'm going to reply all message this many people and then I'm coming off because otherwise in the same way that Facebook wants to consume your attention so they can sell it. So the dating sites, they want you to the game of fire, so you get lost in it. But I think you have to sort of make it a project like this is my first time like a road.


So like this is the time that I'm going to get to this and I'll see a little boundary. It's not. Got my attention. Yes.


You're in control. No, it's in control of you because all of these apps are designed to get your attention and control your behavior. So if you use them rather than them using you, you find that you can break whatever.


Right. If I feel I'm getting too negative in my ass to choose my failing and I take a break from for a week or two and when I come back to it and that that helps me. Hmm.


And so Sandra now is just saying that I find that I become quite desensitised if I'm on it for too long and it becomes a bit of a blur wherein one gentleman just morphs into another sort of just going along. So a potentially good and interesting person could be in that mix. But, you know, and I see a big fish and I see a big glass of beer or whatever, and it's just like, yeah, yeah, go, go, go, go, go, go.


No clues, some little clues, whatever. Go, go, go, go. And some in in that I may have passed a potentially good person, but I'm just totally numb.




I think the old fashioned way works. I think the other John was saying earlier on about working groups and I joined a few around Lancashire Pendle and the hell with the which came from and walk about quite a lot. And the groups, the some really, really nice people on that face to face. Like I say now, when you see the body language, you see the gate, you get to speak to them straight away. Unfortunately, no, no.


We always got partners, which is very unfortunate. But I that's that's the route I'm going to take. I'm not going on the sites anymore. I don't know if it's soul destroying, actually. Not actually confidence. I think certainly not mine anyway. So I'm staying off the minimum of agree with you, John.


If you you know, if you look at the time you can end up spending on dating apps, it can be a huge amount of time without really quite often without getting anywhere and also with walking groups. There is this thing where and if you're well established in a walking group, then at least that gives some kind of. So sanity check about you. I suppose it doesn't mean that everybody knows everything about you, but you're clearly not as random a person as some profile that appears on a dating app.


So I think once you become known and liked, then it can sort of women, um. Sort of then kind of they're already like accepting you as being basically OK. So that's a lot further than the dating app where you have to go through that whole sort of trials of, you know, are you are you a bot or an actual human? Yeah, anything.


I think so.


We've reached the time where so the difficulty is that it's harder to meet people in everyday life. I think dating sites provide you with I think they provide you with the promise of easy access. The downside is that, you know, as you talked about, John, in having a sense of social credibility, but because you've got other people vouching for you, you're part of the group. And the skill that we need to learn in order to have to use dating sites is we have to be able to learn to create trust, create that social credibility from the persona until we can develop the trust and the ability in real life.


So the like the opportunity of Dyson is you've got access to more single people than we ever have. The difficulty is we haven't developed the skills we're built for, like the village 150, 200 years ago, where there was one hundred and fifty people in the village, there was maybe two or three eligible people.


And so we haven't developed those skills to manage with the technology that we have. So I think it's a new era and we just have to learn new skills.


This is why, I mean, one bit of advice and not that I should be giving advice because I haven't really had much success on dating apps, but showing, for example, a picture of yourself with other people, other family members or, you know, it creates a better impression than just, you know, yourself sort of stood in front of a mirror. Everything and another memory that I have is creating a profile on Tinder, where you could log in with Facebook and at that time it just automatically pulled in any Facebook group memberships you had.


So if you were a member of a sports club, a cycling club or whatever, and I found that actually, even though that's crude, it gives you some kind of credibility because it's saying, you know, you belong to some kind of recognized club, which in some way sort of satisfies that need to sort of check that, you know, you're sort of a known person.


But like the other, John, I've renounced all dating apps. Does anyone else have any any anything they've learned from being on dating sites? I've learned not to use you. OK, what I've learned not to use your name, and I've also learned to use your own name. So basically on this one occasion, I didn't use my own name because of my previous experience of using my own name in terms of having a way that and tracking you down and all that sort of stuff anyway.


And so obviously, my name is on and I put my name as a joke on this website on the set dating sites. Right. And anyway. Texting this girl and. We were due to be meeting and a coffee by the chocolate center, and I had already told that, you know, Joe was my real name and explained briefly the reason as to as to why without going into great detail. So anyway, turns up on the dates. She she was there before me.


And long story short, she the first thing out of her mouth was, why do you why did you give me like a false name on the site? And I was like kind of a little bit taken aback. And I was thinking, well, you know, I've already kind of explain this, but basically she gave me the third degree. About given a like a false name, unimportant, like accept my explanation, and she just said that she was just like she was like a doctor as well, and she was like, really, really uncomfortable.


And anyway, I ended up connotates yours. And then she sent me a message saying how fantastic a time. She doesn't believe she'd love to meet you again unless I was like, there's just so many weird, odd people out there, regardless of our profession. And I mean, I'm not on any dating sites or anything, but I just think you're damned if you do sometimes. And you and you're damned if you don't. So some advice from day ops after what Allen said is that when when you do go on dates, you try to see he's not given a very good first impression of you, like suspicious of something and going out on the first time you meet, you just like sort of just get to know someone, don't put any pressure on them, don't put pressure on you.


So just try and get to know them and have a nice time for a couple of hours or whatever is. I view taking this as an opportunity to find out how I interact with people and relate to them so I could kind of just sort of like an experiment, really a learning sort of thing, and that that helps nasals not have any expectations. And I sure, I always get something out of it, even if it's a bad day and I don't like the person or they don't like me.


Me try and do something a bit more fun, so instead of a meal, which I would do at a cinema, which you can't really talk in the cinema, obviously. So if you do something like other crazy golf or something like that, something a bit more interactive and fun and less formal. And also if you have a video call before you meet them in real life. That might help as well break the ice a little bit, a nice with guys, because I hate video cause this is the only thing that I do and I hate talking on the phone, so I don't know.


And I'm nervous to meet face to face right off the bat. But that, like, so weird that you won't phone you, even this real person. And why won't you do this and why won't you do that?


Was just like, look, do you want to meet us or no. For me that is a lot of people. Do you prefer doing this? Sort of they see it as like it has to be step by step. We've got to talk on the phone first and we've got a radio call. Then we can meet in real life. And I guess that's just what other people find comfortable.


So I said, oh, I see. That is it's like it's kind of avoiding a wasted day so bad.


But like, if you like, if I have had a phone, a phone call or a videotape with a lot of people, I can save myself like two or three hours, you know, so that's the way I see the as two or three hours to have a good time and get to know somebody, though, even if it doesn't work out, it depends.


If it doesn't take much effort to see them, then yeah. And if you see a vehicle because you're not a fan of it, but you can meet soon instead and perhaps and then they'll be fine. It's OK. But yeah, it is a bit of both.


It's just different. Yeah. It's, everyone's got their own sort of either, you know, issues or things that they find easier or whatever.


Sheila actually had your hand up. Yeah it is actually I think before of said it, you know. When you're planning a first date, where do you go and how much time do you. Do you give to that day? Is this like. A one hour meeting to our meetings at lunchtime is that evening, how do you go about planning a first day? And no more like benchmark coffee and enough time for a strong stance, Harkin talks quite a bit.


And it depends on, like, partly what you feel comfortable with. So he suggests, you know, somewhere that's not too loud or you can really have a good conversation together and. It's different in cultures as well, I know in America, they don't have like in days is a very British thing to go on a day in the evening and I personally prefer daytimes. Now, if if it's a nice day for a walk, someone, I see it.


We just it depends on you. And if you are more comfortable still or if you'd feel more comfortable moving around, your column said if you want something that's a bit more fun and interactive and it just depends. Generally speaking, somewhere that's not to talk is not to isolate it. It's not too loud. Stuff like that.


I think it's sensible to not I think if it like a big you're having a meal in the evening, it's it puts a lot of pressure and then there's a lot of extra stress on it. I think. Somewhere where you can stay and chat, if you can, or or you've got an excuse, you know, if it's not working out, I think also breakfast states are overlooked, particularly like mums who have got kids and they're busy often this time when it's easier for them to make.


And it's low pressure and it just makes them feel comfortable. Hi, Cynthia, your hand up a. Unmuted. Your muted. OK, yes, I was saying that I think I believe that it's better for you to do the video talk first before you meet somebody and then you feel pressured to go on that to to to see them. And thus it doesn't work out. You don't want really to even have a coffee or or even of water with them.


So I think I think that the best way to do it then is do a video talk first and then to just turn up. You go see the person and it doesn't know. You don't want to have a team with them is it's just a waste of time.


Really, I'm just I'm just going to pick up on the wasted time thing, because this is something I hear a lot. And I think people get frustrated. And I think that's one of the problems with dieting is we talked about people treating people transactionally, I think.


There is a lot of this like a diet is only successful if if there's someone I want to have a relationship with, I think that you should go into a diet with the intention of I'm interested in finding out about this person.


It doesn't it's not a success if. It works out as we develop a relationship, but it's a success if we get to know them and it may just be friendship or it may just be, you know, it may not be someone that you want to date, but you can still enjoy a coffee just like as if it's with a friend or something. And then. There's less pressure, but also some of those people that if you're they might not be right, like they might not be a spark or they might not be developed into a relationship for four years, but they might be for one of your friends or one of their friends, maybe for you.


And I think just treating people as, you know, like and developing your network is more important than looking at it as this one person has to be my partner or it's a failure. It can be strange is often if if someone sort of gently lets you down with a message saying, you know, you're the nicest person, but rather that there wasn't any chemistry, you often that sort of. Means like the end of communication, which. That seems sad, considering there was a lot of.


Eagerness just prior to the first sort of face to face meeting, but it's it's a strange thing that I've seen, um, is that often when there is that sort of gentle let down and that's that's the end of all communication. I don't know if other people find the same thing. There's the other side of the gentle let down, or it can be the way. I've got experience wherein a certain gentleman decided that I needed to be on a date with him.


And I did not like the gentleman because he was a player. And I ended up going on this date with the man to show him, as I said to him, listen, we are not compatible. We will not get along. You know it and I know it. But he had to prove that he could be seen in public with me this place. So we went and enjoyed myself. It was a pleasure. It was lovely. It was all it was just perfect.


And at the end, I said, there you see, we are not compatible. Please, we will not work, I do not like you because everything was just wrong, but I had to go on the dates to prove to the gentleman that he must not call me again because we are not compatible.


I don't know if anybody has had to do that, but there is that was an extreme case of proving to somebody that we are not we will we will work. What didn't you hawks in a quest for instead? I don't like tattoos.


Oh, no, no, no, no. This gentleman is a lawyer. He thought he was handsome. He had the sportscar. It was all a show. And he he needed to be seen with me. That's the point.


I was telling him I'm not I'm just not into that kind of thing where the fast car, the car going to the nightclubs showing off, you know, the fancy clothes and being the part of the beautiful crowd. That was just me.


I you know, I'm a I'm a farmer. I'm a I'm out in the sun, in the dark and all the rest of it. So leave me alone. Oh, no, I have to. You have to come. You must come. I will show you that we can make this work. And I had to go and show him that it would not work. He never spoken to me since.


So there you have it. But I think Alan's forgiven you now like is my friend.


One thing I have noticed is that when you get a text message, often it's just the start of it that comes up on your screen. You know, you get that preview message and it's like the first half. And if it says you are just the nicest person and then it sort of when you open it. If it starts off like that, it's quite often going to be, oh, God, it's because it says you are just the nicest person.


But sorry to say, you know, the chemistry wasn't there or something like that. Hmm, certainly these are the sort of preview messages you get can be a bit sort of the bombshell. I think people have there's a difference between men's experience on dating and women's experience on dating, and it's hard for a man because there's so much rejection and it's hard to get a date. And it's it's it's really a for me, dating is about which lost to someone go in, you know, are they someone we're just not they're not interested.


I someone I'm going to talk to someone I'm going to die. Someone is going to go further. And what you're looking for is not to work but to to know which which box they're in. And then it's just about. I think it's all about without any like 80 percent of the item is about messaging and if there are enough people out there, but if you're able to put the right messages across, then it's just there's always someone else and it's knowing you can you can go on right inside and you can find someone and then that.


What seems like a rejection, isn't it? Just just knowing which box someone is in. Hmmm, that is. And it's probably like 90 percent of people aren't even right for each of us anyway. No, I don't believe in like the one like there's only one person in the whole world that you're going to be compatible with, but maybe 10 percent of the world you might be compatible with. So I think it's important to kind of remember that, you know, you do have to sort of go through the profiles in a way that, you know, is not everybody's right for everybody.


And even though rejections hard and, you know, when when things don't work out is difficult. You know, we can always, like you've said in the past, or we can always heal. And you can we can always bounce back and work through the emotions and be back in a good place. It's how you look when you look at school, like how many relationships did you have in school? And and so what you're looking at a lot of the rejection in on dating sites is someone making a snap judgment based on the fact that you've got a picture with a cat, the fact that you've got a fish in your pocket in your profile picture, the fact that you put one line there that reminds them of someone.


Given six months to get to know you slowly, you know, this is where the walking groups and things will do is that someone who who would turn you down on a dating site will accept you for all the reasons that you've talked about, John. And but it is people are making a snap judgment. But the thing is that if you're on dating sites for a while, you see the same people. You see them like six months later. You see them a year later, three years later, and people change their mind.


People change, you know, like they have forgotten about you in a couple of years and maybe they'll be more receptive. Hi. This way. We've gone from talking about trade to Main Street, and Kate Keaton came to talking about people's experiences and what they've learned on dating sites. So. So, yeah, I think it's it's having it keeping it in perspective. There are enough people, it's just how you approach them, how you come across and then timing of whatever is going on for them.


I think checking in with yourself.


I completely agree with you. But I think part of that is if we look inwards and we think, OK, do I even feel worthy of this person that I'm talking to? Do I feel like good enough? Do I feel confident or know we need to check in with how are you feeling before you approach the person? Because if you've got loads of self-doubt and all the rest of it going on, you're not going to come across to the other person in a sort of secure way.


So I think it's good to kind of like build that first before you approach someone just to to be on the right in the right mindset and sort of.


Just thought, you know, I think even for myself, I need to, you know, I feel like I need to make sure, you know, sometimes I sort of come off the, you know, the sort of self security path or whatever it is. And I think it is important to just check that you're still all right with yourself before or before you move forward with people. Retiree Sheila. I'm just a question, another question that's just come to mind is.


Traditionally, it was the guy that asked the girl out on a date. What happens on dating sites nowadays acceptable? Should a woman still wait for the guy to ask first? What do you think, Sheila?


I think in this day and age, I think it's right for both sides to ask. You know, I think you can't people like. I think you come on equality and then, no, not have equality on the horizon to decide what to do now, what I see I done it is a click.


Like if I see that person and read his profile and someone puts the demand is something that I look for in it, then I'll click like and the person responds back to me when they respond to me a question. And after they tell me what I want to hear, then I've decided what I want to continue my message. And that's for me. But normally I'm because I've waited for this for so long, I going on a date or date anyone is like new to me.


What is what a man said to me, what he's going to try to tell me to speak to me. I don't really know. I'm just like I'm I'm just learning to go on a date now. So I'm just trying to see, OK, click. I like let let's speak to my friend at work. I work with a lot of males at work, but in my view, not to date people I work with. So that's. Not my my way, but I try on the side, I sit and I really I click like on to respond back to me, but then you can find that they are player or some not real, some are fake and stuff like that.


But in real life, I would like for a man to ask me out than me to say, oh, I like you. That's the way I suppose I think by now.


Well, yes, of course I do.


Asking a person that or you just saying fancy meeting for coffee or is that the same thing?


Same thing, isn't it.


I guess I don't know. But why why would you ask are you scared of rejection or what's the reason? Oh no, I never I know my relationships will always be long term. What what is long term. So I've been out, I've been out for one for over ten years. I'm going on because I got a child and I decided when I'm going to date my child must be big, must be about thirteen. So then I'm just trying now to see why it is so for me to think that I'm going to ask someone.


It's strange to me, really.


In my time before they used talks, me men used to see you and try talking to you. No, it's not like that. They don't even look at you. So I'm thinking, oh, maybe something is wrong or whatever. I don't know is strange, really. Something quite nice about approaching a guard, because, like someone said, is it kind of takes the pressure off the guy to wonder if the girl even likes him or not and worried about the rejection or waiting for a response, whatever is or is.


I mean, what was my point when when I was saying whether it's something nice for the woman to be going out?


I can't remember why this thing is. A lot of guys, a lot of guys are actually not very confident, but they don't want to admit it. So that's why they drink alcohol, of course, and get pissed and then try and make a mess of it. Probably. But yeah. So that's why a lot of guys use dating up, I suppose, as well. But they're asking somebody face to face is more difficult. But I mean, I said earlier that asking for a coffee is the same as asking them.


That's not true. Actually, they shouldn't be sure that you should be able to differentiate between friendly coffee and something more.


I think sometimes what has to sometimes you are asked to go for coffee, but intentions are not just to be friends.


So, yeah, but I have asked a guy out on a dating app and it actually showed me a lot about the guy because you can see the reaction to your invitation, so.


What was the reaction?


I found a lot of things that I did not like to find out that he was that he liked to be in control more to know, I think at the time he had a girlfriend and he was in danger.


So that's what I figured out. I figure I put the pieces together. The reaction was off for someone that was so keen, it was very off. So then I started to think and I figured it all out. Right.


We did we did go on a date, but I figured it out actually. See, when you're on a date, you saw a woman. Do you expect the guy to pay for the drinks and the meal? No, I don't accept it. No, I don't accept it. I do it for 50 50.


And I actually think it's easier to to go halves. Yeah, there's no obligation then on the point. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because you feel kind of the guys feel pressure to kind of ask a girl on a date. But then when the guy pays the bill, we feel pressure in a different level. It's like a different expectation and it's not nice.


I don't like I think that's partly why it's nicer to contact men first sometimes because it takes the pressure off as well.


A little bit for how well the ladies ask ask if I were out in real life or just to be okay just because behind the TV screen or a computer screen, I probably if it was in person, I'd ask somebody else to ask them for me.


Don't not in the past.


As another girl now sitting on a genuine level like I was interested in somebody, somebody within the community that boss basically said, you know, is a free race, whatever. And he was married, which was a bit awkward. But I know that's that's how to do so. Yeah.


I wouldn't directly go to the guy like, hey, I don't think you've, like, made an example.


You keep you keep like you've asked about that person, whether the single or not, which you know. So what if your boss would have said, yes, they are single, would you then approach them yourself and gone?


You know, no, I would wouldn't ask them to. So could you ask him to say is interested in getting to know each other.


OK, yeah. That's good. That's a little bit isn't it.


But I am having a bit of a culture adjustment. Shall we, shall we call it that in that comment from Jamaica. Guys ask you out guys. Oh yes. I know you're Jamaican. Yes, yes.


Men, I, you, you, you, you, you refuse more offers for dates than anything else. Yeah. I want to go to.


Yeah. Yeah exactly. See I'm telling the truth. I come in here now that I'm looking to get into the dating game after 30 odd years. Yes.


OK, what do I do. How do I approach to this. Because I don't want to seem to be too forward.


And being the way she nodded her head in the way that I you know, I can see, OK, who is this female?


What is she doing? Why is she you know, why does she think that I would want to like her?




And those are the questions that sometimes will and I'm not a shy person, generally speaking, but it does put me in a situation where sometimes I say her child, I love to talk to him, but maybe he I think he should act first.


Yeah, but that guy might have the exact same thoughts. I know.


I know. And that's a problem because I come from a lifetime where I have been running away from men being just now and see how things are being with me.


I'm not boasting in May not come on to you. Yeah.


Because they love you, but they're notches on the belt they want. And it's the thing is a macho thing. OK, yes. You have to learn to navigate that, that playing field. Now I come and I meet a lot of very polite gentlemen who have these masks over their faces. Sometimes that and they like you, but they don't they they're not saying say anything to you about rejection. And I'm saying, oh, well, maybe he just thinks that I'm annoying.


So let me not annoy him.


But they say cultural difference like British are more reserved.


Yes, yes, yes, yes. They are more reserved. Yes, we're kind of broke up.


Like, don't bother someone that I'd be willing to meet, but that's a problem for them.


That's been very patient. You've had your hand up while.


Yes, he has wanted to take something with all of you guys, whether you are male or female or something else, and we're talking about UPS and we are talking about dating and dating apps came almost as a necessity because I think also in a pub with a male female and we have our drink, so we don't need to think about spending the money on who is paying for what. Somebody approached you from the opposite gender. And I guess a high I would like to know you were looking at you and you seem like an interesting person to talk to, what would be the first reaction?


Other nights, my question is. So how would you react if if you were approached yet? I think that's what we are missing, really. I think people are becoming less social, like less sociable, that's what that's why this app, which is quite sad in my opinion, but think the first impression is yes, you are per go away from.


I think it depends on the way you approach it. I think the way the just that it depends on how you approach and it does depend on the person. You could approach someone in the best way possible and they might not take kindly to it or just depends on the person. Yeah, because I had a friend of mine that he actually told me this story, it was at this pub and he saw this girl, he decided to protest and he just went to her.


They were buying a drink next to each other. And he just said, hi, how are you doing?


And he just said, oh, I have a boyfriend. And she turned away, was like really abruptly. She could have been nice at least. And it was really terrible. But and he was not. It didn't act in a perverted way or nothing was really I think it was by night was like, hi, how are you? So are you enjoying your night? I don't know what else is that? But it just had a reply like, I have a boyfriend.


You want to know just why there was no need for that?


I was freaked out by the experience wherein a man came up to me in Victoria Station, sat at the table where I was having my lunch on my own.




Oh, you are so nice. Where are you from? I said Jamaica. And you live here? Oh, I am going to Brighton. I have a flat in Brighton. Do you want to come and party with me? Come, come, come. Let's go have some pot and have got some cool stuff. And I'm like what.


No that's crazy. The oh my goodness. Yeah.


I love like. No, nobody else has ever approached anywhere remotely like that, even though I'd be glad to say hello back.


And it's interesting that to my question only Ladislav have reply.


But guys, the same way I was letting those people speak, obviously I was just going to say, actually I'm sorry for interrupting, but if if men could respond because Sasha mentioned earlier, if men can say in a chat, even while Colin's talking, how would you feel if you were also. I'm sorry, Kallum. Yeah, I think people men over over exaggerate the importance of the overcomplicate, they think too much about this thing and well, Estella's example was was was unfortunate.


I felt something similar myself, but that's just that person. So generally just talks just talk normally to the to the to the women, because if you like it, if she likes you or gets a good vibe from you, then she'll just want to talk to you anyway. And if you if you're standing there staring at her from behind the like a pillow or something, then obviously, you know, it's not going to go down well. But if you just did, it is a natural situation where you could say you're at the bar or you're walking past or whatever, and you just make eye contact.


You kind of get like, I don't know, I can still get the feeling that maybe you'll get on OK, and if you and if you don't, then this is where I get the less fear and worry there is around it.


Better it tends to go usually if you see how you want it to it. So it still ends up being a pretty positive interaction, at least if nothing else.


Yeah, I the about on rejection, the quite natural with with walks, my kind of pet topic to champion.


You can just kind of you don't have to kind of do that like take a deep breath and then go straight up and do something, you know, it's just all kind of osmosis. You sort of you find yourself walking beside different people naturally because you get to a farm gate and then that rearranges where everybody is on the path. And so you have a chance to just like, naturally sense things, you know, without having to kind of leap across and, you know, just put it out there.


It's kind of just more more natural process that I would say that.


The other thing is, because I've talked to guys about this, is that the part of the reason I think for they're they're they're nervous because they're they're thinking too much about the outcome. So they're thinking, if I get this right, then this could make it happen. But no, just just say I'm just going to say something to her. And if it's a conversation, don't start planning ahead or maybe maybe go for melioidosis. Do that, because that doesn't matter.


That point simply just a conversation. And if something more happens and find otherwise again, what does it matter? Yeah, you better be better just going ahead and doing it, because otherwise you're talking self out of whatever you want to do. Yeah, well, I think that you should definitely get your energy levels off to a level of positivity before you do it. And, you know, some people would say to Gene yourself a little bit, I wouldn't you know, I wouldn't sit there and think, shall I say they should all go over and say that I think you just go out, because at the end of the day, you know, if someone like your opening line isn't going to be that particularly important, they're going to like it anyway.


And that's where you go on from there. And I think confidence goes goes along by your your confidence in yourself, regardless of the outcome to the alcohol, regardless of the outcome. Sorry, I'm going to say an alcohol can certainly help you with that because it stops your ability to reason and sometimes when you're not drinking.


Yeah, yeah. Well, obviously she's not as an example like. But yeah, you don't have to, you certainly don't have to have a drink to do it. And I mean me personally, I've got a clear the mind when I'm not drinking anyway, so I will be in a better position to sober. Yeah you, you do. Because at the end of the day, you know, what are they going to do. They're not going to consider not going to go.


No, I don't fancy the nose are they. So the outcome if you don't speak to somebody this the way I look at it, the outcome, if you don't if you don't say anything will be that you're going home on your own. You know, I don't know. And I'm not talking about girls. I'm not talking about sex that I mean, you're not going to beat somebody. Or if you make an effort, then even if you get ninety nine knock backs, there's going to be the on the one that's going to say yes.


And you can just use it as a as a, you know, it was a bit of a training regime just to build up your confidence and stuff, and you can do it by saying I'm going to take personal time. But even though you know what time it is, just as a way of like build your self up tolerance to a stranger or something. And I think that works because, you know, if you just can't make it, make it not.


So I'm not saying I'm an expert, not by any means, but I have got a bit a bit of an idea. And that's just being, you know, being natural, being sharp. And you don't you don't have to think, oh, I'm going to speak to you because I consider myself a manicure or anything like that. I just think I'm going to speak to that person. I'm going to have a bit of a laugh. Undershot happens every day.


You have a lot. I think having a smile is a good start with a smile. Smile back then. It's it's it's it's something to show that she's probably will talk to you. Just sometimes is just enough. I say hello to a lot of people and sometimes you just get this frown or you don't get a response, and that's all to me. I say, hello, I'm not asking you to marry me. I'm just saying hello. And if you say hello back, maybe we'll talk about the weather or something and who knows the nice conversation about all sorts of things.


But nobody, you know, you say hello to ten people and maybe to grant all kind of stuff back to you. I mean, is it that bad?


And that to me is an icebreaker, just 10 lol.


Not not having to have a preconceived notion of script in your head as to how you're going to have an ice breaker, because sometimes you just say hello and the other person will start the conversation. You don't have to start the conversation. But Heleno is a word that everybody knows or good morning or it's a nice day or just something, something as simple as that, nothing more. And nothing like, as Hassin says, a smile.


A smile can do wonders.


I'm like the master of being unapproachable when I'm out in public, like, literally, I will just make myself so approachable and nobody can tell what I'm doing. I was in a library once, this elderly man who must have been about seven or eight years old, and he came. So he must feel like the master of being able to approach the most unapproachable woman in the world. And he just says, oh, some like Mandela's colouring thing. And he's like, how have you been doing this a while?


It's really beautiful and whatever. And yeah. So I guess sometimes it's an.


The attention on something else and having a conversation around something else might make it easier for some people as well.


Why would you be so unapproachable by using that term?


Because it freaks me to. How is this guy? So I used to go into this this cafe regularly and study with my son. But when I'm there, I'm focused on what I'm doing, when I'm on my laptop, on the books and the things that we're doing. I know my son and I don't look at anybody around me or pay attention to anybody else. I'm focused. One day I'm going in there on my own without muscle. And this guy came up to me so sweet I fall down like low lying low.


The next few minutes, like, hi, I've seen you like quite a few times in here, like I've been watching you with your son. And, you know, you look like a really good relationship from what I've read for these guys. So cute. Well, I was I was petrified completely and totally. I've never even seen him in my life. And he's seen me all of these times. And I just I just couldn't it just froze and broke down.


And it was just like, I just can't do it or, you know, like of self-confidence issue that it's just I don't know.


I don't think his self-confidence is just I'm just too scared to just to an expected when it's unexpected for me and I'm not expecting it. It's just like I can't. So that's where I am.


So I'm thinking maybe because you're with your son. Because when I'm with my daughter, I really actually don't want anyone to really speak to me. And I'm just thinking that maybe it's because I've got my daughter. Somebody is looking to to us. I don't know, I would focus it on my child. So it may be because you have your son was you know why you are like that? No, I don't think it's just because of my son.


I just just don't find it too difficult with people approaching me unexpected and stuff like that. And then if I'm I find that I feel safe when I'm with my son because Lassman are interested when I was with my son and out on my own, because it's a single female and there's more guys sort of, you know, pay an interest. And so sorry, I don't I don't just I just don't like it personally from my own experience, but it's different for everybody on it.


Yeah, because I think that because. Because when I'm with my daughter, I'm thinking they're probably looking at her. I think she's about 16, 17. I'm thinking, what's the boys looking? You know? So I tend to have my hair up like that.


But I think actually what you pointed out is.


Watch. What would help people like, for example, if a man is approaching, a woman will help his nerves, is also being aware of what you would be feeling and what what might make you feel uncomfortable. And when your focus is on that, it's going to make you less nervous because it's less about what you've got to say and more about what the other person is feeling or might be feeling. And then the rejection isn't about you. It's about the context of the situation of how they felt in that situation.


So, Sasha, I get what you're saying, because I I had something happened to me only I was into last week, this weekend. And this guy completely freaked me out. And it was written all over my face. It was helping me. It was trying to help me find a birthday present for my son being really, really helpful. And I just didn't I just was totally unexpected. And and then he just gave me his phone number to help put my son's bike together.


And I just was like, just kind of let him was like, you know, and it was written on my face, you know, what you did. But it was because it was it was not his fault.


It was just and I expected it was really unexpected.


And I was just like, oh, my God, why you give me your number? I was just I didn't say it, but you could see it. And it was it was just because it was so unexpected. So I think. Yeah. So sometimes guys might think that you're sort of being really offhand, but sometimes it does catch you unawares if you are really not expecting it. And I wasn't you just thought, what are you doing? Because, yeah, normally I'm really, really approachable.


I just find it really easy to talk to people. But I don't think I'm in that mindset yet to be going out trying to meet new guys. I'm not in that mindset. So for someone else to see me in that way when I was not in that mindset or was not there ever, it was just a shock.


Sometimes we take rejections personally where a person might have lied to us for whatever reason, but for another reason we've said no, no to was for something that's beyond anything to do with who we are or whatever. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.


I found it really interesting from obviously from this lady's point of view, because my viewpoints is totally opposite. I wouldn't put any boundaries on the words wise or house because it's like I'm just like kind of so open. I just don't look at life as being in control of what's going on whatsoever. So, you know, the example that was given that I think is said. Yeah, so. Well, I don't mean that disrespectfully by saying I mean like social worker that someone's asked about in the situation.


Would it be OK for you to cope? I just think goes no, no.


I think you should know, for example, normally I don't I know I've not really put myself into that arena. I'm I'm kind of not quite sure. And and I think because I'm not not really used to seeing myself in that way, it was just a surprise, that's all. And nothing that's all I was trying to get across is that, you know, sometimes people might like or when might reject to men, but it may literally just because you've caused.


So in where's that was my point. Not not so much. It's nothing personal about them. Yeah. That's what I was trying to express, is not it wasn't to do with the setting. It was just I guess because I didn't realize I was being looked at in that way. I didn't realize I was putting that message out yet because I still felt not ready. So I think it was just that. And it was kind of just a shock.


Where would you be interested in me? Why, why? Why are you giving me a number? Why do you want to help me? And it was but it was very, very quick. And it was only afterwards I kind of went away and reflect on it for what just happened. And that was really odd. My sister and my my daughter found hysterical because she was. What did you think he was giving you before you could? You know, it seems like no, I just really didn't see it.


So I think it comes down to you quite clearly said that's where you were in your own head at the moment of time and. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that's kind of where it would have kind of comes down to, because my personal opinion will be. On the more positive side, and I have heard people make comments and stuff like that, and it's been unexpected and when it's unexpected, I think it's really exciting. And if anyone even if I don't find them attractive whatsoever and, you know, someone's expressed interest in me, I think I find it flattered because I look at it from the point of view of, you know, well, that's a nice thing.


It's a nice thing that someone can see the qualities that I have. And that's just the way I look. And I think it's a good attitude to have.


I've got to work on that island. I'm just not quite where you are. I can clearly see coming down here missing the last couple of time, I'm quite a long way behind you. I've got a lot of catching up to do.


I know you might be further ahead in different cities. I don't know. I've no, I'm I'm not even in the do I even want to have a date again, I. Alan, I love you for saying that, I must say that's really nice, but I think we saw our experiences influence how we react. And I think out of an abundance of caution, sometimes we think of, you know, we just cast aside things that could become very interesting in terms of just either having a friendship with somebody, just finally getting somebody to talk to.


But so many things put us off in terms of trust in strangers. We don't know what they're about. We don't know if there is an ulterior motive. We we don't know if it's just a friendly chat or hello or whatever. And so those barriers sometimes cause us to filter out people who could potentially be interested in connections. It might be just in passing. It's not necessarily a permanent thing. And I know that sometimes I can get myself into trouble.


And this is a problem that my husband had with me.


I know I will say hello to people, but there is a gentleman who was on the pavement and I'm walking, you know, in opposite directions and I smell this, his cigar. And it was the most divine smell. And I just looked at the gentleman in his or an older gentleman and I said in him, you're cigar is just absolutely delightful.


And he blushed and he found to be and he just stood there and he just looked at me. You made my day. And I felt so good.


It was really, really nice. I didn't know the man at all. And of course, my husband is standing there looking at me like.


You know, again, kind of thing, and then then you've had your hand up for a while.


Yeah, thanks. I mean, it's been really interesting hearing both sides, sides as well. Sounds like a court battle or something. Yeah, I guess I find it hard because, like, on the one hand, I've had the kind of like the gender roles and traditional gender roles, and I kind of consider myself quite liberal and modern and progressive and for equality. But at the same time, I think I probably buy into the kind of traditional gender roles to a degree about men initiating and like sometimes if a woman were to approach, may also be quite forthright with me.


I would feel a bit like somehow takes away a bit of opportunity for me to act in a perhaps a masculine role. So I guess I just struggle with that really. And and then that comes across it. And then I think that, you know, it's like I think everyone plays well. Most people buy into it to a degree.


And then and then. Yeah.


And I just find it hard to kind of initiating things really I think is sensible as a man to buy into that because a lot of women won't approach men. So I think it's a good attitude to assume that you you are going to need to be the one to initiate. And because women do tend to get more attention than men. That's. As a man, I think you should, although I think I think the gender role is outdated. I think if we if we going to move to a timeless equality, it has to be equality in relationships that you have something to say.


Yeah, I was just going to agree with the gentleman who just spoke, I also believe in traditional male and female roles, and I guess I'm a bit different in the sense that I don't believe in equality. I don't think we're equal. I think we are different. Therefore, we can never be equal. We complement one another. We each gender brings something different to the table. That's how I see things. And I think in the natural world as well, it's males more tend to chase girls.


I mean, it's nice to want to be a modern liberal and so forth, but I think we still have a beautiful way before evolution is maybe completely wrong.


But can I just say, I don't I don't think I said I hope I believe in traditional gender roles. I think I just feel it's hard not to act in accordance with them because I feel like everyone does sort of subscribe to them to a degree. But ideally, I feel like I would like things to be equal.


But it's yeah, it's complicated.


OK, let's have a quick poll. So the ladies on the chat who if you raise your hand or you can raise your hand, actually, if you're not on screen, who would be comfortable asking our man?


Or approaching a man. I think for me, it's down to confidence what I was saying about, you know, I get wasted, but you know Flunder about a guy asking for me. The response is not necessarily a response to the guy that's asking its response and how I view myself. If I don't feel if my self-esteem is not high enough, my confidence is not high enough, I would be questioning why is the guy chatting to me? Why is the guy OK now?


What does he want? What's he after? And that I would let fear get in the way. So. For me to ask a guy out. It's a confidence thing, I don't think I'd ever at this stage, I wouldn't have the confidence to ask a guy out. And. Janice and I find it I find a kind of I find it easy to talk to people Meatpaper, but to actually sit to take it to the next level, I wouldn't be able to do it.


I was kind of back at the last minute. You know, I'm not talking about recent times, but I just know from how I am. I just find that, yeah, it's just a step too far for me. I kind of need to take that the the other person to kind of make me at that point and take that leap then. So in that sense, yeah, I'd be traditional at that point. Know I don't mind doing the groundwork and the chatting and did it, but at that final bit to take it further than yes.


I need the guy to come forward to that point.


OK, and just before we go see John, quick poll of poll of men. How would you just briefly, how would you feel being approached or asked out by a woman? It's really a bit scared, but what's the plan here? What's going on? OK, so it'll be a control issue. Yeah. Now, it would if if I think it's slightly different than a woman asking you out, whereas if the lady came and made it obvious that she likes you by, you know, just I mean, I study body language, just twist into her smiling, smiling, overexaggerated smile, and it gives you a green, which gives you the confidence to then ask me and you're not going to fear rejection.


Then you get knocked back. It's like a slap in the face. Whereas if you know if you know that lady wants you to ask her out, you got the confidence to do it. Whereas I don't think I'd just approach a lady in a bar. I couldn't do it. I wouldn't do it. But if I knew that she wanted me to, I'll be inclined to do it.


Yeah. And that's a thumbs up, maybe you can type in chat if you want to or give reaction, I think would be great.


Sorry, it would be great. It would be great. And I would say it's about time.


But when they ask, they ask you out and.


And Gary. Yeah, I do. Also, it is very nice to have you with us. OK, John, thanks for being patient. And yeah, now and Rick. If anyone wants to ask, I don't know. I'll meet you, by the way. Who is that? OK, so as I said, they are asking me out there.


No, actually, I'll leave that one. No, it's fine.


OK, sorry, John. I think John's first name Fernando.


Well, this it could be perhaps a topic for another time. But I was just remembering, talking to a psychologist, clinical psychologist, and she tended to see behavior in terms of the actual kind of moving parts in our brains.


And she sort of explained to me about the limbic brain, which is this bit, which is sort of a bit of a grunt brain of that, you know, I mean, that more, you know, and then there's the other parts which are more sort of developed later in our evolution. If you believe all this, which sort of exercise more control and sort of having that sort of highlighted and reading of it is quite hard not to then be thinking that when you're thinking about behavior and it's a lot of our behavior really just a bit of a battle between that sort of limbic side, which is just.


I look you, you know, and decide that saying, hang on, calculate, predict possible outcomes, um, I don't know what people think, whether. You know, because we've not really talked about the actual mechanics of what goes on in the head, we've talked about perhaps changes, you know, in sort of behavioral. You know, sort of trends with with different sort of ways of communicating and just sort of natural changes over the years, but do other people see it as a sort of actual fight between this kind of primitive part of the brain and the the higher faculties?


I think that's quite interesting. So you're talking about destroying the brain theory, which is basically we have a reptilian core, which is what triggers how we breathe and fear. We've got limbic, which is more caveman like, and then we've got the Serabee cerebral cortex, which is where we're very rational. And so what you're really talking about is, does fear override social, social interaction and so on? Is that what you're asking, John? Yeah.


Can our behavior be seen rather than saying does how does the direct approach sort of stack up against, you know, something more to game playing that that's almost reflected in the kind of limbic versus the higher faculties? And just a question about whether that whether it helps to try and understand things in that way or whether actually, you know, that's just trying to break things down too much into the workings. But I guess you'd be saying, well, just be true to be true to your instinct?


Well, I think I think it's I think that's that's a good context. It's a good framework. So when we when we talk about, like when Sasha was in the library or when Janice was in the shop, so what really you've got the social interaction and then you've got really a layer of fear that makes it feel uncomfortable, makes you feel like maybe there's a danger, which is a more so primal thing, which overrides the social niceties.


There's a kind of fear. But also, I assume from that area you've got the actual urge. But it's quite a sort of a basic urge that is perhaps driving some of this activity in the first place.


Yes. So so you'd have like the sex drive is the reptilian core. You'd have the romantic interest, which is the limbic. And then you've got like the the cerebral cortex. Yeah. So anyone, Sasha.


I think, Larry, I don't know if this helps answer any part of your question, but I have one sort of aspects of your question is this is a story of helpless. And I think to have a sort of more in-depth understanding of it, I think it was for some people and maybe not for all of us. And I think this is where we've got that sort of in our biology. You know, human nature needs to survive. And if we didn't, maybe we would we would all become extinct.


So that's the that's the sort of like the unconscious natural part of the drive to find a partner to mate with. And we've got the thinking part of the brain, OK, how do we do this in a in a in the right way. In a good way and all the rest of it. I don't know. I think I think when you look at the example of a friend asked to go and then she was just really rude. I think what you've really got there is.


If someone is, you know, like Sasha said, if the more confident you are, the easier the interaction goes. If you come across, if you're lacking in confidence and it's awkward, it's going to trigger fear, which is triggered from a different from like that limbic system, which is then going to. Affect the interaction. So. Culturally, I think that. If we're going to talk like specifically more morphos from the female side of things is that there are there are more dangerous for women and so the fear is more likely to override than whereas like, you know, if someone's been drinking and a man basically is going to be more, you know, like some drunk man is just like wants to sleep with someone.


And what's happened is the alcohol overrides the social thing, whereas I think probably from female, just from cultural conditioning, that fear is more likely to stop women. I don't know the answer to your question.


What we've what it sounds like. Yeah, it's kind of interesting. Whether it's helpful, I don't know. It's hard not to once you've been told about these things, it's hard not to sort of be aware of it, you know, but I, I yeah.


I don't know if it's helpful, I suppose. Yeah. It's kind of is something that we've been talking about quite a lot is people need to feel just at least safe with what's going on. You know that the trust is the starting point. Yeah. I suppose that's where that. That sort of limbic, I guess, faculty. It involved. Yeah, I don't yeah, I don't know if it's helpful, but I thought I'd mention it if it's just been interesting to me, I think is helpful, particularly for men to understand rejection.


To understand, if you if to the extent that you can build trust. It's so much easier. The biggest like if if if there was trust on dating sites, there would be no hostility because it's just fear that. So, for example, a woman gets a message and like, if she says no thank you, then is she going to get a lot of abuse? And if she's interested, is there then going to be like, is it going to be a stalker or something like that?


So I think fear and trust are the two keys. I think one of the things that's new to us is the when you're face to face with someone, you observe certain modes of behavior in that you are not as. Rude or without filters, whereas when you're on a dating site, it is very difficult to know what to say, how to say it because of the possible responses that you can get from anybody. And it has happened to me where a gentleman from another country wanted to know if I wanted to start the love story.


And I said, I'm not here to have a love story. I already have a long distance husband. I don't want a long distance love story with anybody. And the abuse I got from the gentleman, I just I mean, I blocked him, but it was instantaneous. How dare you refuse my offer of this thing in person? I don't think he would have said that to me or be as obnoxious. You know, he didn't use curse words, but he was just angry.


And I think that is something that we have. Tough to find a way to to to manage. And as of as a female, it is. It's not quite the same as being physically abused, but nonetheless, it hurts just as much and you feel just as unsettled by it because it's there and you remember it and you think, what have I done? I'm just responding truthfully to to to to something that a person has put forward to me.


And I have the right to say no or to. To modify their request, but no, it seems as in this medium, you should not deny them their desires.


I don't know if these dating sites have a like report function. Can you report someone for some some DOS?


And I think on Tinder, I think there's a report thing you can report and I think on henges, I think so. I'm not. I can't really say, but I think there is, but I have seen where some people have complained on another site and the people who run the site made them feel like they said that they met. They made them feel as though they were the ones who were in the wrong. So they were wondering if it was it was worth the bother to even report this person.


So. You see, that's something that bubble does have a way of reporting, and they actually asked you why so abusive behavior and stuff like that, so you can actually take and tell them what happened that was wrong in your opinion and the more reports someone get as well as half the day.


And I was saying then they got blocked only from the from being able to I mean, it can probably just make another account and come back, which happens. But, you know, at least they are blocking them and making it difficult for them.


If the guy in the report says so, well, then at least people learn, people learn what's acceptable. But, you know, like if they're not blocking it, they're not stopping it, then it just continues.


Just another barrier is another barrier to to women's ability to trust. Yeah.


It can make you shaky to continue. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I just want to ask about the idea of seeing a lady on a cafe or in a library and approaching her and talking to her. I keep thinking, like if every good looking woman, for example, sitting in a library with a coffee and a guy walking around like Sarah comes to talk with her, then she would like spending all her days, like getting guys coming around to talk with her.


And she will not enjoy anything if she goes in a park or in a walk or in a library or in a cafe. She will not be able to do anything. So for me, getting theoretically should be perfect because you are going on the outside. Everyone wants the same thing or sort of some of them. I don't like the one swipe left and right, maybe plenty of fish. I thought it is perfect because it allows you to search for certain kind of people in a certain area.


A certain education theoretically is perfect and also gives you options for people to contact. What kind of people can contact you? Theoretically, it should work, but somehow I don't know what's going on. It is like there are people there or both. You don't know how to be. So dating apps should be easier if it works. But I don't know what's going on there. But the ones who have left are right. For me, this is totally perfect, totally waste of time, because if you want to say something to someone or something, maybe some apps allows you to send messages, which is kind of available to fish.


Others don't allow you to do that. So it's sort of a waste of time. But I don't know what's going on with I was put into fish, for example. I like it a lot. I like the strategy. This is actually I'm interested in this business. And I was looking for an app that does exactly the same as the fish, but somehow it doesn't work. Look what's going on wrong because it gives a lot of features. But for example, I was searching for people like Wisbech, Addus or Master or doctors or engineers, the sort of people they are there.


I send messages, you don't get anything back, which is a bit strange. So it's this kind of compatibility between education or work or something. I see it is really nice and is available there, but you cannot get any responses. So I don't know what's going on. That's why we swipe left and right. It doesn't give you any options. So for example and I see a couple of ladies doctor from NHS, but this is the kind I like, but I cannot send any message to him.


So this is the sort of things. I think maybe like, OK, Cupid used to be used and searched by by things like that, and I think there are some specialist. Perhaps. You know, most specialists to. Professionals and professionals. Remember my favorite app, the league, the league, the guy? Yes, that's what I know. Fifteen thousand five hundred and forty one the.


Until you pay, you will move at a snail's pace next year maybe.


And there's one called the inner circle, if you're interested, if you're where your profile and your your qualifications are and those things are seem to be quite important and your social media contacts. So if you're interested in getting.


A specialist type of. Up, then maybe this one might work for you. What is the inner circle? Thank you. You're welcome. Anyone else got any experience to top lessons to share from from dating or any questions on? Dating sites, dating apps, dating behavior. I think it all boils down to like fear, I think we have to regulate our fear through it all and we have to.


Keep a check on Off-Air, regulate on just how we're feeling of ourselves, like I've mentioned before, and I think if we're on then preparing for injunction, I'm not taking it personally. So if this person goes, I approach them and they do reject me, how am I going to take it? And we're going to take this personally and take it to heart. Is it going to affect my self-esteem or am I going to be able to compartmentalize it into actually, for whatever reason, they didn't want to move forward?


And it doesn't have to be personal about me, and even if it is to say like she was because I was white, for example, then that's not I'm not last on because I'm white or not good enough because I don't face an ethnicity or whatever. It's just purely because that's not right for them. You know, and they've got their own expectations that they need to me or whatever, so he doesn't I don't have to start feeling like the last one because of the rejection.


And I think it's important to make sure that we're not feeling less than every time we rejected. Or imagine if you rejected somebody else, would you expect them to feel depressed because of the obvious and difficult?


Because I don't you know, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings and whatever, but you can't nobody is going to accept everybody, you know. Rejection is just part and parcel of it all. And sometimes I'll be completely open and honest with people. And, you know, some people are fine with it. Some people take it really badly. And, you know, there's only so much I can sort of do. I think it's I don't know if that was your question or thought question, but I suppose it was more like you say, you take it really personally if you get rejected.


But if you reject somebody else to reject somebody you don't you wouldn't want them to take it personally.


No, I'm saying it's important not to take it personally. Exactly.


So when you get rejected, then there's no reason you should take it personally, because when you're a jet, if you reject somebody else for whatever reasons, it doesn't matter. But, you know, you would say to them, don't take it personally. So it works both ways. That's my point. It works both ways, I suppose. I think the problem is society has done such a job on us that we're all feeling like we're not good enough.


I think we all go to school. We're all in, like, failed, failed, failed. At least some people were told that they're not good enough. And so we're all broken out as adults with insecurities without feeling that we have to live up to something where there's this Hollywood image of, you know, that everyone's doing better than us. Everyone is better than us. I remember reading something that Paul McCartney, at the height of the Beatles fame, when all the women were, like, falling all over him, went out incognito and he couldn't get he couldn't get a woman to have a drink with him, all of that at all.


And yet the image of him could have any woman. And I think it's just. We've been given so many barriers made to feel inadequate, and so this it's this conditioning that causes us so much problems. Yeah, because I remember one woman saying that she used to call every single rejection down to a way she wasn't even a big boy in her mind, you have to look this or Olafsson and figure. And every time she got a rejection, she was telling herself, it's because I'm not I don't know.


Well, that wasn't necessarily the truth.


And I suppose guys have the same problem. I don't know if the you see guys on Instagram and whatnot with the gym boards and the six pack and all that kind of stuff. And I think I need to have that. Um, but a lot of women I've talked to don't actually necessarily put that much importance on it. And actually, if you have a topless pic on a profile, actually swipe left because of that. Yeah. Because it said something about you.


So, yeah, so Beloff kind of for me, it kind of says that you find your security and how you look. Yeah. This is another last time on yourself. You probably spend a lot of time on yourself, so, I mean, what's left? What's going to be left for potential relationship? Because I've seen men who write on their profiles. They like sports like this. Everything is outdoors and active. So where would I fit into all of this is, you know.


Yeah, some guys are too busy, it's just too much. I think sometimes they want to try and impress or remember, one guy is like, you know, I work is this and I volunteer in this in my spare time. And I also do this. And he's trying to impress me. And I'm thinking, you sound like you don't stop for a second of the day to just breathe.


This is another example of a city that competes with that attitude to even get a look in. What do you do? And all the various things to even be like that person.


It's another example of where science can be unhelpful, because I did I read a book by Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker, to know if anyone has read that one, that it sort of messes with your brain for life, because then you see relationships as this archetypal image of a guy with a fish, you know, with a six pack, a giant fish. You know, that he's caught in Richard Dawkins sort of world view. That would be right.


Came on because, you know, he's got this huge fish. I mean, that's that's got to be food for several days.


You know, what's not to like. But, of course, you know, it doesn't really help when it comes to understanding modern day relationships. But yes, back in the Richard Dawkins worldview, being strong and, you know, being able to source good food. It's good stuff. Is there something to the effect because I mean, I I read through Meetup again, going going out to put from Bolton with a meter of 40, 50 people on group.


And and I used to be a fit instructor many years ago that excite me and I'm not overly confident, etc., but because I used to teach, keep fit and I've done a bit of weight training and people have this assumption because you were a teacher and you got you got some biceps and triceps. Do you think an attitude comes with that? And a lot of females have said to me, oh, I stayed away from you because you seem to be a bit of a job, but you've got you chatting women up all the time.


And I said, no, it's completely the opposite. Actually, it's completely the opposite. And so it can have the reverse effect on you sometimes. If you read that book, Robert. I think this is the one. I can remember I remember the watchmen. I'm not sure if I'm thinking the watchmaker is talking or if that's the philosophy one. Is it like a religious concept of philosophical? The Richard Dawkins one, it's kind of in a way, it's kind of demystifying and romanticizing the huge diversity and complexity of nature just in terms of things happen only to allow sort of propagation of genes, you know, so something as complex as a fish with an eye that can focus evolves from just initially just like a dip in its skin, which is a bit light sensitive.


And so it comes all the way to. Yeah, things like relationships, but possibly misses the point, I think, in modern day, because we have so many sort of. Subtleties, don't we, in relationships, so just the fact that I. I can fish, which I can't, I'm really terrible at fishing, but, um, in the Richard Dawkins sort of world, yes, that would be a plus point. The trick is the watch maker theory is about the argument forgotten, and I'm guessing with Dawkins that that's basically the argument of the universe was designed like versus the genes.


And so I think it's relevant in the sense of. What is supposed to attract us to the other sex is signals of four women, signals of a provider for a man is signals of a woman that could produce children. So the whole. Basis of evolutionary psychology, psychology is that there is attraction.


What we were attracted to and does that have any relevance today? Well, again, when you when you look at who we were attracted to is a conscious choice. It comes from the limbic system. So when you're looking at signals. As opposed to actual facts, so if someone is attracted to muscles, it's because they're strong and they're a protector. If someone's attracted to wide hips, it's like they were going to be childbearing years. So. That's the theory that we work on.


So. Uh. I think if you are conscious of that, though, I think then we can make a conscious effort to override that and not place so much value on the. So if somebody isn't in the best financial situation, for example, or if they're not sort of this, you know, crazily looking sort of. He monotype and. I don't know, I think. You can I can kind of sort of say the same thing to myself, OK?


It wasn't. If is showing sort of neglectful traits, that's different to him whenever he can provide or not, whenever he's got a good income at that time or not. Does that make sense? It does.


I think whoever is quite a protective person or if he's going to neglect protecting him and his family, his family and stuff.


Yeah, I think that there is. So when we look, there are certain things that we agree are. Attractive, this this certainly looks like if you look at what we consider beauty, it's symmetry and it's if you've got one hundred people to vote on the same person, they did not pick a certain type.


Well, it's common features that are typically attractive. It is so like the more unique that you are, the more variance from the norm, the less attractive typically are. So there is sort of things that we find attractive. But really, whether we personally find someone attractive over time is based on our story. It's not even really based on them. It's based on our story. So that the same woman that finds, you know, like the muscular man attractive from a primal level, some other woman is going to find someone who's completely the opposite, attractive for a different reason.


So it's not necessarily it I think it all plays back to I think which is what you were sort of saying, Sasha, that there's someone for everyone and it's all based on your story, unlike the story that people have.


And I think we've we've covered the gamut of of dating. I think most of us are in that situation. We're here to try and sort of find a relationship and make it work so.


So what do you want? More insight, Steve Fielding. Tonight's produced. I really I'm sorry, I just go away with feeling a bit more confident about it, sort of refreshes and renews my confidence to do the work before I go ahead with talking to people. If that makes sense, lucky, it sort of takes away the sort of self doubt and stuff that are got to the point of being stuck in self-doubt sometimes. What I'm thinking is how to develop consistency in the approach, in my approach in that.


There are things that you're not going to settle for, but at the same time, you have to be consistent in your behaving that you're polite, but until you're alert, you.


Are open to a certain degree. In other words, not having too many restrictive criteria that you end up on a site. Not not not really seeing anybody or anybody meeting your, you know, all of the various ticks or labels that you want them to tick and at the same time being flexible, but within a certain framework.


In other words, you're not flip flopping all over the place. You are consistent in your approach. That's that's that's it. While while maintaining, as Sasha says, not taking it personally, but at the same time being mindful of others, that you are not rude to them because it hurts you. So what you do is also hurtful to others. And I, I have learned that I need to be what I am. Firm with that button. When I press new and I'm gone, I'm gone.


When you're out, you're out. If you cross the line, it's the I'm not going to think about it and be sorry, young lady. My boundaries are my boundaries and. I think it's a good place to be. I know it's not easy and it's hard, but it's a good place to be it even if it doesn't feel right.


I agree.


And it takes some time to get there. And sometimes you feel discouraged because it's like I'm not seeing anybody. Will I ever find anybody that will want, you know, that will reciprocate or that thing? And yes, when you look, sometimes it's like everybody's just morphing into one person and it gets all kind of blurry. And as you said before, take some time off, recharge, come back again and start all over. But I just think that we need to set standards for ourselves and find a way of approaching it so that we are safe and that we don't get unnecessarily hurt and also not get discouraged.


Thank you, that's very reassuring. I really like listening to that. And the other last photo roundups of Summers, I like the bit about having a story in that it's your story and the story of the person you meet that will sort of count and also just really valuing your own story with all of its kind of. Pain, no time to let it sort of make you feel. Lisa, is it in fact, you know, it should make you feel more.


Very encouraging. Hmm. Know, I think a strong role is really important that you make the story that makes you strong and everything that's happened is part of your journey to make sure you are and is coming to an acceptance of that. And that you have something to contribute. Everybody, we we all have something that we can offer to others, and I think sometimes we forget that and we feel, you know, not great and nobody would like what I have to offer and not this.


And I'm not that. Don't compare yourself to anybody. Don't believe in yourself, and just think that you're a good human being. Somebody will like you for that.


Yeah, I think I've found that since coming to this group is why I feel like I've got a and some of which has been good. They are always looking, and I think if you could strip away all the fear and all the lack of trust and people could see the real you and so many people and you could see the real them, and it's kind of like you could walk in this forest of people to see who people really were. It would be so easy to find the person.


But what houses back is that fear, that lack of that self-doubt to all that the masks that we put up. And so when we have the confidence that we can just move through safely, that we can be ourselves irrespective of what other people think of us, then we let people see who we are and we don't. You don't want everyone to like you, because the worst thing is when you're single, the worst thing that can happen to you is you meet someone who's is bad for you, who detracts from your life.


There's nothing wrong with being single. You can be happy and be single. You want you only want the person that's going to enhance your life and make it better. And if you can just walk through without needing to be in a relationship, just knowing you'll find as you are, you everyone's going to get in a relationship. It's just you want to get in the right relationship. And there's so many people that are just rushing in because they doubt themselves.


They may feel less than they could be or should be. And it's just just going with the right mindset and then mechanically work out dating sites and it's just learning the skills of how to navigate them.


I think we're in an age that we're adapting to it. Where the where the where the group where the the area that is adapting to it now. So it's all this big new thing for us and we're trying to learn how to navigate it. But then people in the future, it's not going to work on the work.


You're like 20 year olds are on dating apps already.


So, you know, they I mean, people before us didn't have to go through all of this like this, where we're unfortunately in this group where we're the ones trying to work it all out.


I don't know that it's necessary, unfortunately, because I think people when I look at people of an older generation, they stay together because they had no option or they stayed single because they never worked out. They were too shy to to talk to anyone or they settled for whoever they had.


So I think we there is yes, there is that learning curve, we've got something new, but we also have as well.


Yeah, we've got the opportunities is whether we learn new skills to adapt. There are lots of people that are going to get her and feel that they're wasting their time and and whatever from dating sites. But it's people that's going to learn how to use them. And it's far more efficient. It's far easier than going to the Parbo wait and wait to meet someone. If you just know how to do it and you learn the skills, you can just go on a dating site and find anyone that will.


You know, it'll take time to find the right person, but you just have to have the emotional foundations and the resilience to not take it too seriously. I think it also helps to cement the things that really matter to you. The things that are really important to you as you go along, because you will come upon things that you will not that you you cannot abide. You will not have that as part of your life. You know, those things.


And I think sometimes that is a bit of a machine in your head because it hasn't been tested. But dating sites help you to test those reactions. Are those those those things that are important to you? And so, in a sense, coming out on the other side, you are much more articulate person in terms of what you are what you want and you know what you will not abide. So, yes, I think you're navigating the the hackers and the rude people.


And all of that is something that we do it in real life on the ground.


But I think it's a different reaction when it happens, virtually because texts, for example, can stay permanently and it's there. And how do you navigate that? And it's it's it's impersonal, but it's also very personal at the same time. And I think that is something, as Sasha saying, we are the guinea pigs in how to deal with that and move on to another person, because your ego does take a battering and it's hard to keep bouncing back from that and saying, OK, it's really not meant for me.


It is somebody who does not. And that person clearly doesn't see me. Not like what? I think is that we should not succumb to the rudeness ourselves and try not to impart that to others in terms of our behavior and just nip it in the bud when we see it coming our way.


If my. I think as well, Rob, just what you were saying before about being authentic, going forward to meet people and being yourself, and I think when we when we when we are ourselves and we get rejected, if we take it personally and think that it's because we're being ourselves and not for another external reason, that's what causes us to pull this off. Also, because some people are not rejecting who we are, they're rejecting what we portrayed.


So it almost makes the rejection a little bit easier to deal with. So I think that drives us to pull this of fall, so because of the fear of rejection, because we don't want our true selves to be rejected. Yeah, I think the problem there is that I'm not saying we should. I was just thinking about why people and build more this fall, this fall south.


Well, I think the problem there is that people make themselves the star of every story. So if that happens to you, it's because you supporting character in their story. And that's the nature of being human, is that we make the story that we are the center of the story, we're the center of the universe. So if someone rejects us is because of something to do with us, it is nothing really to do with us is to do with then we were just a supporting character who crossed their path.


You know, they wanted something and we didn't fit what they wanted for their story.


And that's why there was just wasn't mutual cooperation and and actually. The best thing you can have is I know it's not nice, but that kind of rudeness, that rejection, because it tells you. That's not the person for you, because the the biggest danger people have is the charmer, who's lovely for a year because they're the ones that really create the toxic relationships where people really get damaged by because they fall in love. They think, oh, this is this is the perfect thing.


And then they end up being manipulated and controlled and abused. And that's when they really feel it's because it's. Because of them, is something wrong with them, so because there's been sort of groomed a lot longer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They didn't play played to to perform a role. And then when they can't perform anywhere anymore, it's control and abuse to try and get them to do that. And that's what really damages people. So that that's why it's really important not to jump into anything until you know someone.


But that's that can be difficult on the line because a person can spin you a story and you think you know them, it can go on for four, four, four, four, four weeks, four months, and it might take some doing to unravel what is real, what is real from what is fiction. If they're very good at spinning that story.


Yeah. They can keep that up in person for six months. Yeah. And it's just keeping knowing like never sinking everything in until you until you really have evidence to know someone. And you only know someone over time when you see them in different contexts, when you know we should sorry, we should be we should give people the benefit of the doubt.


I will not be suspicious of everyone at the same time, of course, because how are you going to know unless you give someone the benefit of the doubt, but you give them the benefit of the doubt, knowing that you're strong enough that you can you can see it so you don't jump in and think, yes, this is my fairy tale. This is, you know, Prince Charming or the princess.


And I'm going to give everything and fantasizing about how great this interaction is going to be.


And yeah, yeah. People who do that in the first weeks, first months.


And there are some kind of a telltale sign that is not good right from the beginning as well.


Yeah. When you look at people being narcissistic relationships, which sort of are more prolific with online dating, because you've got so like narcissists make up a small amount of the population, but they have lots of little relationships. They know how to play it well. They're more attractive, the more charismatic. So, yeah, people jump in.


And if you're aware that other options are pretty, pretty noticeable on as long as you don't get attached to them.


Yeah. It's where people sink in too quick that you like. You can't really know anyone in in six weeks or three months. You don't really know. And I get this is this is my soulmate and that is where you've gone all in and that's where you've kind of lost yourself. So it's it's recognizing that your journey is the most important thing in your life, you you're the only person that you're always going to be with. You and the other person is there while you enhance their life and you and they enhance yours.


And hopefully you both have the commitment and both have the integrity to make that work, but you have to be aware that maybe it isn't and not jump in just because you've had a great three months and believing that they are everything that you idealize them to be. But one question well, and this I haven't reached the stage yet, so this is I'm throwing this out to everybody.


When does one feel comfortable enough to take a relationship for want of a better word, are flying into the real world? I'd personally say the sooner the better for the first, let's say for the first year, I was talking to people hundreds of miles away and I found it personally, I find it very mentally taxing because I was always imagining what they're going to be like in real life. And then seeing all the guys on movies like that sort of guy wonder of his life.


So I found that really difficult. And I'm not only looking sort of locally and meeting people pretty soon. So they talk so much stress off. The whole process is hard at first because it was something I was very, very new and I wasn't used to doing, not meeting strangers and stuff like that. So it was hard at first, all the more approximatively Zerega and I ended up kind of being this person that was calm and everybody else down because I'd got like comfortable with it and a suit on for me.


I need to meet somebody in the first week because it just puts me eyes. And the sooner we can meet them in person, the better, because you get so much more from me and them face to face than you do over the Internet or the phone or whatever.


What did you start introducing them to your friends? No, not really.


Go that far with. There's only one guy that introduced listen to me. And I was going to go and meet his moments before I got to know this. This I've not got that far. I was only really just sort of a few days later and still for the. I think because I think that's probably one of the true tests that well, you know, and when does that arise? How will they integrate into your circle in terms of, you know, they meet your friends, though the stand talking called wired for that and so is from.


And so if he does it from a neurological linguistics or how the brain works and how people attach and stuff like that, he does it from that perspective. What he talks about, like going through three stages. So the first stage being you, then you sort of be a Sherlock Holmes. Then when you feel like there's some compatibility that and you like your family and your friends share like them, and then you trust your family and your friends, if they see anything you like, there's a big red flag and whatever, and then forgot what the third stage is.


Or maybe there's only two families know.


And I'm not sure if you're from friends and family, it's like to because you're chemically, you know, it's lost and things. It's going to carry you away. But to get off of people's opinions as well. In terms of meeting, there's some research that the average meeting is after 23 messages and they found that it's people who met after 17 messages had worse. It turned out worse because people tend to idealize, you know, as you said, you tend to think that that is perfect person.


And then you find that they have feet of clay. Yeah, but you find it's it's a different person almost to the one you thought you were chatting to. So, yeah, if you spent three weeks chatting, well, you know, and then it's actually not a person you were mentioning. And so you have to question what the value was in all that time spent exchanging messages. I think you need a visual. You need a video. You need a video chat then I guess.


Yeah. And also Sasha mentioning about distance, I think that that's not to be underestimated is how tough it is if there is distance involved, even for a first date. So, you know, I met somebody just because I was coming off of that and I thought, oh, gosh, come on. Really bad to lose that one contact I made, because if once I delete my account, I probably never make contact again. So I did message, but they they live in pool.


So we did meet, you know, and that was really tough actually, because it being such a way away, you know, ended up sort of planning a whole weekend. Um, but, um, fairly early on, I think we realized that we didn't click.


But then you've kind of committed to be stuck. It is always naked.


I mean, I agree that all of these encounters can be valuable, but I was literally just naked the next week just from sort of talking to fill in the gaps, you know.


Ouch. Yeah. Oh, well, the first thing that I decided was, OK, long distance, no go, it's not happening. So anybody that I speak to who is further than probably 50 miles away, I will speak to you because I speak to I speak to anybody. But, you know, that is just a friendship that's not going anywhere. So that's that's that cuts you off. And in that sense, sometimes I find that it frees me up in terms of how I approach somebody, you know, if they're speaking to me because I'm not I'm responding not with any expectations of anything, because I know it's not going anywhere.


So I'm free to be just, you know. If you don't talk to me, it's fine if you talk to me, fine if you're friends with friends. There's just nothing because it's not going to happen. And then when I come closer to where I am, in some instances, I get a bit queasy and maybe I'm just scared to get, you know, oh, no, you're too close. No, I don't want you because I don't want you to turn up at my door.


No, no. So don't share your details or in the corner where you live.


Oh, no, no, no. They can't find me. You don't think. Actually, no one can find me. I'm untraceable.


No, I don't think so. Once you're on to it to a reasonable degree, unless it's a specialist or somewhere that is of a degree.


But you can be found once you're on social media. You can.


Oh, no, I keep myself away of all along. So. So it's, you know, how do you how near is to there.


Oh yes. There's always that risk. There is always that risk. And the internet doesn't make it easier because like you said, we're also traceable.


Yeah. And I think that's been mentioned a lot in the group of our women are more vulnerable when it comes to that sort of stuff, and that's the danger for women. Exactly. No, no, it was never happened to man, but, you know, generally speaking, women are more vulnerable to than it is, unfortunately, a risk and they can be very scary.


Well, men have been known to complain about women who stop them as well. So there are instances of that. So it goes both ways. I think one of the things that the dating game, this virtual thing has brought up, I think it's made us more equal in terms of the dangers that we face in some regards. It's both ways men are made to feel uncomfortable just by women, just as much as women are to because men can feel vulnerable.


Women turn up.


Yeah, there's no there's no sex that's more wrong than the other. Yeah, sure. I think I think in terms of discussions, the discussions, we can we can discuss it both both groups can have the same discussion or similar discussions. It's just that, as you're saying, as women, how do we. We are not as. We feel more vulnerable than men. I think men, by and large, I think that they are capable of handling a woman if she approaches them at their house or wherever, and they can deal with it, because for us, I think we have genuine fears.


You know, if I didn't feel that fair, it'd be a bit dangerous as well. All sorts could happen is definitely a natural type of fear to have. So therefore, it serves a purpose. Yeah, and it is within that context that we have to couch how we respond and how we issue invitations and where are we going to manage the fare as well?


Yeah, we manage these things and I think that's an extra layer that sometimes holds us back.


It is. And if if men could learn to make it safe, to create that trust today with safe dating would be so much easier.


But the risk there is going to be you know, it really says that that's never going to happen. You know, all the men are not going to stop being safe places for women. It's just not going to happen. But the there's always going to be them fearful that a group of people want to make it safe. And obviously, for some men are going to change and make it more safer. Well, I think, you know, it's to remember that no matter how many bad experiences we go through, there is always a safe guys out there and there is always the decent women out there and, you know, there somewhere.


Yeah. I think ultimately the key is that you have to obviously be sensible to look after yourself and stay safe, but the more.


I think people do ultimately attract people of this, like people attract people of the same looks, of the same intelligence, and your behavior and your character is also another way that you if you're not willing to settle for things, you're less likely to be with someone who's maybe less stable or less trustworthy. It's it's just. It's just the process of of being strong, being authentic and being sensible as well, not getting carried away. And don't have any fish profile pictures.


I agree wholeheartedly. I don't want to see another fish, but to have a dog, one possibly. No, no, no pets, no dogs, no cats. I see your black cat behind your back.


Jim Jones has been calling the cat.


I might not like angling bits of metal, but.


No, no, no, no. No cats. No dogs, no motorbikes. No. Just be yourself. Good grief.


And tell your your age. Don't say you're 40 when you're sixty or seventy five when your sixty dogs.


Right. Guys, I gotta make a move slightly, but it's been a privilege to talk to you. Good. Yeah. Thank you everyone for being on and see you next week.


Oh Rob. Next week is is the one on next week. Yes. Next week is the next one for two weeks.


Oh, I've never done so. I've done the same. Next one is kicking next week. Oh. Not saying all Jigsaw's on Netflix. OK, this is a good stand up about relationships and the week after the Enchantment Dieting Strategy.


Oh yeah I watched it but it looks good on that. I watched an interview with her of the ladies you mentioned the intern, the favorable treatment.


Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's pretty good. OK, then she should be a good topic so hopefully, see you next week.


We'll take care. Thanks, everyone.


Annie, bye.